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>>133202372
damn I guess if your poor you should just get polio and die

>>133202750
If the government wasn't paying ultra high prices for all the medicine a vaccine wouldn't cost so much.

Healthcare is a right. It's not illegal.

However, that doesn't mean it should be socialized through the government.

Imagine if tax payers were paying for free guns. The right to bear arms doesn't mean guns should be socialized and dispersed to anyone and everyone.

>>133202750
How about don't be poor, or go to the EUSSR, I hear they are taking every worthless leech these days.

>>133202372
Anon, healthcare is the worst free market commodity there is.
Lets be honest. Doctors and nurses and hospitals and all of the people who actually provide healthcare are not the ones profiting from it in our current model and they're not the ones who are going to stop profiting from it in a socialized model.
The insurance industry has maneuvered itself into a position of inscrutable necessity while providing nothing but middle-man paper shuffling and profit raking.

>>133203050
so your saying if the medical industry and health insurance industry weren't such greedy fucks and sold their products are their actual price and not a %5,000,000 markup the government would actually be able to buy it at a reasonable price and then give it to their citizens? except the government doesn't want to do that because big pharma and health insurance giants have been lobbying Washington for years in order to get those in power to accept the current arrangement and pass laws to only favor their profit margins while screwing over the middle to low income taxpayer (aka average joe)

I guess health care isn't a right
we should all pay our corporate overlords for their overpriced and diluted medical stock and hope we survive

or you know
we could all tell them to go fuck themselves and just chip in a few extra pennies on our taxes each year to help pay for people that got sick the previous year, kill the health insurance industry, and have medical supplies tank in price to their actual value now that there isn't a corporate incentive to try and sell them for as high a price as possible

but that would mean that you helped pay for someone else's well being and did something altruistic
can't have that as the low income farmer from Oklahoma no sir. My kids don't need to be vaccinated and poor people and hippies should all die if they need to see a doctor not to mention I aint payin nofin for no gender switch surgery (which would be labeled as a cosmetic surgery and would not be covered by universal health care)

seems about right to me

>>133203078
>didn't read the OP

>>133203078
>health care is illegal in some countries
Canadian right?

>>133203807
a single payer system is more efficient. For instance, medicaid has a efficiency of around 30%, but private insurance companies have extra overhead that pushes the number up to around 50%. Fuck ObamaCare. We were supposed to get a single payer system like the rest of the 1st world countries.

It's because of private insurance. The government negotiates for lower prices on all healthcare it pays for, whether it's the VA or Medicare, they pay about 1/3 of what private insurance companies reimburse us for the same tests.

In countries with socialized medicine/single payer systems, yeah, we can't charge as much for the tests because there's only one entity paying for it, and they have determined how much they're willing to pay and we can take it or leave it. So.. the price comes down to what they're willing to pay.

Private insurance is a scam, the hospitals and drug companies scam the insurance companies, and the insurance companies scam their policy holders.

>>133204540
insurance is not health care though

in a free market doctors would market to you just like they do for oil changes

Why don't you want to be free?

>>133204540
I agree
you can thank your republican congressmen for killing the original ACA bill and denying us a half decent system

yet for some reason we are going to pin the failings of it all on the left when the original vision for the bill was pretty much exactly what most people that visit pol would have wanted and benefited from

>>133203807
>just chip in a few extra pennies on our taxes each year
Its never ever just a few pennies you money grubbing leech.

>>133204716
because we can't market doctors like we market oil

if this was the case small town america wouldn't have any doctors because not enough of them get sick every year to work a livable wage as one
doctors would have to set up shop in areas where there are enough people so that they could make money
either that or the health care providers in small areas would charge outrageous fees

>>133204887
except in a nation of 300+ million it would only actually be around 10c a year per person to cover every injury or illness when paying for actual price medical supplies and service

the only real downside is now poor people are allowed to see the doctor so sometimes you have a first come first serve basis and have to wait in line to see someone for non critical things
god forbid we save millions of lives and trillions of dollars but force people to wait in line when they have a broken collar bone every now and then

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did you ever think that government involvement was the problem? I mean, the government already controls and pays for most healthcare in America. We have hundreds of thousands of pages of laws and regulations governing it which removes and semblance of a free market. If the market was free, why would my employer provide me with health insurance, they sure as shit don't give me car/home insurance.

because we can't market oil like we market food

if this was the case small town america wouldn't have any mechanics because not enough of their cars break down every year to work a livable wage as one
mechanics would have to set up shop in areas where there are enough people so that they could make money
either that or the auto shops in small areas would charge outrageous fees

except in a nation of 300+ million it would only actually be around 10c a year per person to cover every breakdown and oil change when paying for actual price of car repair and service

the only real downside is now poor people are allowed to fix their cars so sometimes you have a first come first serve basis and have to wait in line to see someone for non critical things
god forbid we keep millions of cars running and trillions of dollars but force people to wait in line when they have a broken radiator every now and then

>>133202750
damn I guess if your poor you should just get a fucking job

>>133205133

They give you insurance because it's deductible with no questions asked.

Company cars do happen, but the IRS is more particular about business use, same goes for housing. A company could offer you both of those things if it's for their benefit rather than yours.

If you work and live on an oil rig your living quarters are paid for and fully deductible. It's explicitly barebones and done for the convenience of the company, but it still works in the same fashion.

>>133205035
>if this was the case small town america wouldn't have any doctors because not enough of them get sick every year to work a livable wage as one
>doctors would have to set up shop in areas where there are enough people so that they could make money
>either that or the health care providers in small areas would charge outrageous fees

Except that already happens. If you left the Bay Area, or any other metropolitan area you clearly live in, you would see that your scenario already occurs in the Central Valley, as well as other rural parts of CA. No amount of subsidised medicine would help that unless you propose we subsidise doctors' living conditions to entice them to move to undeserved areas.

>>133205133
Same reason college tuition is so high

>>133202372
>along with
So really, it could be a right.

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>>133204540
>>133204720
>>133204887
>>133205035
>>133203807
I agree. Education, healthcare, infrastructure, and access to justice (courts/police etc.) are basic tenants of society. I fully support a single payer system despite having many libertarian views on other issues.

>>133206077
I live in a town of around 6,000 in Rural Montana

incentivising doctors through other means is a fine idea
but treating doctors like a commodity on the free market is not a viable solution

>>133205439
the fact of the matter is taking a quarter of your paycheck to pay for health insurance every month isn't a viable living expense for most people that hold low income jobs
before the ACA I knew people working 2 jobs that couldn't afford health insurance
on top of things like car insurance, rent or mortgage, electricity, food, and other life expenses low income families often have little to no money left to even have buying power in the economy

>>133204720

Who pays for healthcare now? Everybody. Who pays for it under single-payer? Everybody. What's the difference? Instead of everybody having to negotiate separately with a multi-trillion dollar international banking, insurance and healthcare industry, a collective entity makes those negotiations. It's the union approach... and it means we no longer pay 1000X the prices everyone else pays.

>>133206656
‘US afford to do it

Warren Buffett: Single Payer Is ‘the Best System’ for America

A single-payer program is "the best system for US" Buffett said Monday

https://news.grabien.com/story-warren-buffett-endorses-single-payer-health-care-we-can-affo

>>133203807
The concept goes back to at least 1970, when the conservative Heritage Foundation proposed an individual mandate as an alternative to single-payer health care.[118] It was championed for a time by conservative economists and Republican senators as a market-based approach to healthcare

The 1993 Republican alternative, introduced by Senator John Chafee as the Health Equity and Access Reform Today Act, contained a "universal coverage" requirement with a penalty for noncompliance—an individual mandate—as well as subsidies to be used in state-based 'purchasing groups'.[124] Advocates for the 1993 bill included prominent Republicans such as Senators Orrin Hatch, Chuck Grassley, Bob Bennett and Kit Bond


After the 2016 election of Donald Trump as U.S. President, Heritage Foundation played a major role in shaping his transition team

they started obamacare

https://watch.pair.com/heritage.html
https://watch.pair.com/rockefeller.html

>The idea of the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) originated with Heritage Fellow and CNP member, Richard Allen
https://exposingmodernmugwumps.com/tag/rockefeller-heritage-connection/

CFR-affiliated foundations include: The Carnegie Foundation, The Ford Foundation, The Heritage Foundation, and the Rockefeller Brothers Foundation, among others.
http://www.spingola.com/funding%20fathers.htm

http://www.newswithviews.com/Nelson/kelleigh377.htm

>>133206681
>>133206769
Changing your flag does not change your ID senpai

>>133206926
shieeeet


the CEO of united health group is typically the person with the highest amount compensation in the US each year
you can look up full compensation of public company execs on forbes database and this dude makes like $120 million PER YEAR

>>133206656
>can't afford health insurance
>has a mortgage(!)
>has car insurance(!)
>"life expenses"(!)

If health insurance is taking so much of your poverty-stricken friend's income, maybe he ought not to have bought a house, cars and all the smart phones and modern amenities that absolutely are not essentials. Tell him to say goodbye to fast food and hello to beans and potatoes, take his faggoty ass to the bus stop and learn to make friends with Goodwill.

The poor in this country are only poor because they live beyond their means. People will forego healthcare because they're too good to eat cheap or ride the bus or somehow exist without the internet.

>>133206493
Tenets.

>>133207084
That observation is moot because if that CEO took a $120 million pay cut and redistributed it among the insured, it wouldn't make any noticeable difference.

I'm for single payer, but that argument always sucks.

>>133207363
By cutting out the middle-man when talking to the people, he nullifies the influence the media have on people. It works like this; Politican says something - media publishes it after slanting it according to their own agenda - the people get to hear a biased version of what the politician said.

By talking directly to people he is giving a middle-finger to the MSM and also gives them something to focus on for the day, the more tweets the better, cause you can bet that they will dissect it and try to demonize him. But they're also spread thin and their attention is split rather than united, which allows many things to fall through the cracks and it exhausts his enemies.


the middle-man should be abolished in every industry, especially healthcare (insurance, pharma) speculating on shit, hiking prices, and damaging services

>>133206656
And after Obamacare the prices got much worse. Liberalism fucks up everything.

>>133207111
>live beyond their means
>paying rent to live in a dwelling
>paying mandatory care insurance because there is no public transportation system in rural america
>thinking he isn't already eating rice and beans every night

thats some nice ignorance of the lives of low income families you got there friend

glad to see you grew up in a middle to upper income household and never knew what it was like to live from paycheck to paycheck

these things aren't living beyond peoples means
owning a car is mandatory for most low incomes jobs since you need to be able to get yourself to and from work
living in a shelter is also pretty much mandatory for a human
eating is also mandatory

it also doesn't help then that these people are more likely to have children because they are bored out of their fucking minds since they have no money do go and do things so they just sit and fuck like rabbits or resort to drugs which both put even greater economic strain on a low income family

we treat the poor like they are diseased in America when the real solution is funnily enough the capitalistic one in giving them more purchasing power so that they can entertain themselves after they secure life's basic amenities

the poor in this country are not poor just because they live beyond their means in fact the vast majority of them are not like that

>>133207682
the prices went up because of additions and changes to the bill that were demanded by right wing congressmen who are in the pockets of big pharma and health insurance
the bill was origionally meant to be a first step into bringing these industires to heel but using their monetary power and influence over the right they trashed an otherwise very serviceable bill and then in a position where he didn't want to sacrifice the whole deal and at least help some people Obama pushed through a half measure that ended up hurting some people but helped a lot more

worst part is that the bill probably would have helped you too

>>133207682
Obamacare was always Romneycare, the enforced payment of profit bloated insurance company billings, and it was invented by the rockefeller Heritage Foundation.

see >>133206850

>>133203078
You have a right to your health. You don't have a right to force someone else to take care of your health.

>>133207958
right but should I have the right to the proper medicine I need to survive?
do I have a right to be vaccinated against life threatening diseases?
I might not be able to force the doctor to treat me but the biggest expense in the medical industry isn't the doctor its the treatments, drugs, tests, and supplies

>>133208095
No - why would you just have the right to any of that stuff? Is it yours? Did you make the medicine or buy it from someone? How did you get it? Did you just steal it from someone else?

>>133208308
>why would you just have the right to any of that stuff?
Why would you have a right to anything?

>>133203807
>not a %5,000,000 markup

Something has to cover the research, development, years of clinical trials required by law, etc. But I guess those are all free, right?

>>133208498
You have a right to your life, your liberty and your pursuit of happiness. That is all.

Oh, and if you're not American, you don't even get any of that.

>>133208573
>That is all.
Says who?

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>>133208501
true those are very expensive
I can see now why big pharma operates at such a low profit margin
those RnD costs and trials are very expensive

>>133208624
Says our fucking constitution.

I'm very skeptical that a single payer system would ever work in this country.
Personally I think two things need to happen before considering single payer:
Tax simplification, end tax deductions for employers who give their employee health benefits (aka you don't get to keep your health plan).
SEC oversight into potential fraud in hospitals and especially biotech. SEC oversight may also provide valuable information about cash flows and where the cause of high costs comes from, if there is indeed no fraud going on.
If both of these fail, then we can consider having a single payer system.

>>133208671
So it can be changed.

>>133208671
its actually the Declaration of Independence that says those words
close enough though
I am sure you can trust your right wing congressmen when he tells you big pharma isn't totally fucking you in the ass

>>133208738
Sure can.

>>133208771
The bill of rights is technically part of our constitution.

>>133208880
>Sure can.
So really, anything can be a right?

>>133208880
you are right the bill of rights is in fact a part of the constitution

its a good thing that the Declaration of Independence isn't the bill of rights

I'm gonna assume you are baiting because I honestly don't think anyone is this stupid

>>133208905
Obama literally made insurance mandatory, did he not?

>>133202750
damn I guess if you're* poor you should do something about it and it's not everyone else's problem

>>133208940
You're a fucking moron - the constitution and bill of rights DEFINE LEGALLY what the declaration of independence was all about.

>>133208954
Different to it being a right, but yes.

>>133202372
>Old timer patient
>Is there a doctor here who isn't a nigger?

>>133209059
Is it? Isn't that exactly what a positive right is? It's the first one ever in the history of this country, too. Really activates those almonds.

If you are paying monthly for private health insurance, which you almost never take advantage of and you are unable to withdraw after paying, aren't you already indirectly paying for someone else's healthcare costs?

>>133208990
>just stop being poor

lovin this meme

>>133209002
nowhere in the constitution does it say we have a right to life, liberty or the pursuit of happiness

the bill of rights came almost 20 years after those lines were written
and they don't legally define the deceleration of independence because all the DoI did was declare independence...

k 100% bait
I'm out
good night idiots have fun getting sick and dying because you can't afford the medical care and your insurance company won't pay for it

>>133202372
>healthcare becomes a right
>suddenly there's no appointments for months and not enough doctors
Lol

>>133202372
>right to life
So explain how I should die without rights

>>133209177
Yes - insurance itself is a socialistic fraud and is the prime reason why healthcare itself is so expensive in this country. If it cost $50 as opposed to $15,000 to set a broken arm, there would be no need for insurance.

>>133208954
He made it so you get slapped with a $700 fine for not having health insurance. You know, progress.

>>133205439
Too little pay, and a disease can prevent that.

>>133209140
A right is something you're allowed to have. Not required to. A picture of Kim-Jong-Un isn't a right in North Korea, just because everyone has to have one.

>>133206681
Insurance is the union approach
What you want is a dictatorship approach.

>>133209374
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_and_positive_rights
You know nothing.

We should go back to the wild west of health insurance with skyrocketing prices for 4 or 8 years, no covering pre-existing conditions so boomers pay insane premiums or just die off quicker

>>133207877
>the prices went up because of additions and changes to the bill that were demanded by right wing congressmen
This is patently false
Dems passed it without any republican votes.

>>133209465
Thanks for proving me right (pun intended).

>>133208679
Nah, the main issue is immigration
No country in the world has universal healthcare while also having such a large immigration rate, particularly illegal immigration.
It's impossible to balance those expenses when you never know how many people you have to accommodate

>>133209434
You already pay a ton of money to pay for socialized healthcare for the very poor and the elderly, anon.
You're already paying for socialized health services at a hugely inflated rate but you're not getting any of the benefits yourself.

>>133209595
Are you fucking retarded? A positive right is something that must be provided to you. A negative right is something that someone else cannot take from you.

You have a right to life - no one is allowed to kill you.

You have a right to liberty - no one can enslave or imprison you for no reason.

You have a right to a pursuit of happiness - you can own property that others cannot simply take from you.

All of these are negative rights. All of the rights defined in the bill of rights are negative rights.

We have never had a positive right in this country until literally Obama. And it's not even a real positive right - they've just taken away your right to NOT have health insurance, which is insane.

>>133209595
He's confusing positive right to mandate
A positive right to healthcare would legitimately mean that if he wants healthcare, he cannot be turned away (this is law already)
He's thinking that means he has a right to be free of paying for said healthcare, which is crazy talk.

>>133209686
>He think the illegal immigration rate is some huge issue because Donald told him it was.
Illegal immigration is at its least important level in decades anon. What percentage of the population do you honestly believe these people represent, specifically the ones who don't pay taxes but would collect health benefits.

>>133209858
Because we are comfortable paying more so that only people who want it have it.
It's the moral choice.

>>133209992
>He's thinking that means he has a right to be free of paying for said healthcare, which is crazy talk.
No you moron - I want to retain my right to NOT HAVE HEALTH INSURANCE.

WHY IS THIS SO HARD TO FUCKING UNDERSTAND.

>>133202750
Pretty much, yes. Being poor when you live in america is fucking retarded, specially when there's so many opportunities on the internet and everything is dirty cheap.

>>133210032
Look, ive lived in a border state for over 30 years
I've known illegals
Ive known adults who are just now learning their parents are illegals.
And my wife works in the healthcare industry
I'm very much aware of how much of an obstacle for single payer illegals are, but that's not even the whole point. Immigration as a whole would have to be slowed drastically.
I personally think we're better served without cutting off our immigration policy, but anyone who thinks we can pay for everyone's healthcare without it is just sticking their head in the sand.

>>133210109
>No you moron - I want to retain my right to NOT HAVE HEALTH INSURANCE.
It sounded like that's what the other guys side was

>>133210417
>A right is something you're allowed to have.
Right out of the gate he was incorrect.

>>133210273
>there's so many opportunities on the internet

let's see those examples buddy should i create a youtube channel or something

>>133210620
>should i create a youtube channel or something

I've actually considered this. Make shitty clickbait for kids. The problem is I'd have to live with myself and I'm already prone to depression.

>>133210359
>I live in a state that's disproportionately immigrant
That's why these costs need to be nationalized, anon.
>immigration as a whole would have to be slowed drastically
Why? This isn't the case with any other social program including our existing social health programs. You tax immigrants the same as everyone else.

>>133207877
you can't reason with these retards who have had everything handed to them from mommy and daddy. the fascists here will say "le bootstraps meme" where there is no boot to pull from. don't bother

>>133210740
don't forget you're competing with about a million other fucktards. it's not worth it, stop considering it

>>133202750
Check out this virtue signaler

>>133210843
Do you believe in evolution? How about natural selection?

>>133203194

if it could be detached from the current model where you get a few years of extra life maybe in exponentially declining quality. none of it is worth the cost. regenerative medicine is what's needed.

>>133210936
>a system created by humans is natural selection

are you fucking dumb

>>133211030
So you do, and you recognize that society itself is removing natural selection for human beings, correct?

>>133210620
That depends on what you like doing and what are your abilities. Let's pick the example you just posted, youtube channels, you can make one about music, history, fiction, politics, economy, technology, games and so on.

What matters most is how you approach the subject (if you are going to use a comedic tone, a serious one, the use of video editing), how you market it, and how you choose to monetize it.

There are several vacuums on each of those subjects because for a long while entertainment was controlled by big companies.

>>133211095
get to the point moran

>>133211139
like i said >>133210908
it is literally pointless. don't forget the money you need to pay for equipment to be able to be on the other faggots level. and now with le adpocalypse this will not work. any other suggestion wise one

>>133211305
Poor dumb people dying for lack of "healthcare" is the modern form of natural selection. It's either that or eugenics and endless war. Which would you prefer?

>>133211305
>pointless
That's the way you get anywhere in life right?
>don't forget the money you need to pay for equipment to be able to be on the other faggots level
On america? Those equips are dirty cheap.
>adpocalypse
That's not how you monetize your channel.

>>133211394
yeah, wow, as i said. i'm not going to try to reason with your fucked up mind. your parents didn't raise you right, i hope you know that.

>>133203194
>going to stop profiting from it in a socialized model
I hope you really believe a socialized model will throw away corporate profits and the insurance companies won't still be in a position to demand cost from purchasers, I really do. I hope socialized coverage is implemented and you're too stupid to see the relation between socialized college loans and the continuous, ridiculous tuition raises that happen every year. I hope you're so fucking dumb that you won't be cognizant of the price fixing that occurs when a cost is guaranteed to be payed back.

tl;dr you're fucking stupid

>>133211554
I'm guessing by your reply that you are in the poor and/or dumb category. Sorry anon.

>>133202372
The problem isn't healthcare you stupid fucks. The problem is the insurance middle man who serves absolutely no productive purpose. It has been proven to save money around the world to cut out the middle man.

>>133211692
They are too dumb to understand (((insurance))).

>>133211598
and it would make you feel better if your assumption was correct, wouldn't it? that's called sociopathy. time to go to the psychiatrist anon

>>133211776
I'll go if you provide my health care, anon.

>>133211825
i'd rather you suffer anon

>>133202372
Yes goy, pay for your rights.

>>133211922
That sounds pretty psychopathic, anon.

Should the government at least pay for all the expensive machines in the hospitals

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>tfw tens of thousands worth of free treatment

Feelsheatlhyman, why you cant be like us america? For profit doesnt work, cut out the middleman and take out the costly and useless load that abuses you

>>133212010
With what money? Oh, you mean our money?

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>>133211981
it's for the greater good anon, trust me

>>133212032
What's the tax rate over there, anon?

>>133212109
Spoken like a true communist.

>>133212114
Depends on the income and county, not that I pay them

>>133212235
>not that I pay them
Haha, of course - I'm sure someone else will pay.

>>133212181
desu i'd rather be a communist than a fascist but no i'm not, i just know your kind needs eradication as quickly as possible :^)

>>133212354
Communists are fascist.

>>133202372
No, it is a RIGHT to a SERVICE

>>133202750
is it the government's job to squash every possible bad thing that could ever happen to poor people? replacing one ill with another is not the solution

>>133212436
Why would you assume you have a right to someone else's goods or services?

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>>133212397
republicans are fascist

Socialized healthcare means that whites pay the doctor bills for blacks.
I would be opposed to that, just like I am opposed to paying for the healthcare bills of Merkel's rapefugees.

>>133212560
Republicans are idiots.

>>133211584
>implying college loans are actually socialized and not just federally regulated and subsidized
Jesus christ anon who are you to call anyone else in this world stupid.
College loans are the same moron setup we have with mandated private insurance. Private companies being shunted billions in business from the government for being middle men.
>implying the private insurance market isn't decimated in a socialized health model
Oh yeah the private insurance industry is really booming in fucking canada and the UK you pinhead.
Why do you idiots keep LARPing like these are new fucking ideas that we need to reinvent the wheel over, or that the results are gonna be some huge fucking surprise full of catastrophe. We wouldn't be the first wealthy country to do this shit, we would be the last.

>>133212744
>Buying insurance when you have socialized medicine
These are the same idiots that think people would keep working if universal basic income were implemented.

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>>133212032

Our for profit healthcare may leave some poor niggers with a lot of medical bills that they'll never care to pay but it also allows us to lead the world in medical research. Your socialism shitcare systems depend on the US and our medical advancements just as your militaries also depend on us.
Statistics for our contributions to medical science look very similar to our military spending compared to the rest of the world. That's right, we blow everyone out of the water.

>>133202750
polio was eradicated because people with limited time, and ability to cure one disease at a time were paid to come up with a cure

>>133203807
>year: Just a few pennies
>y+1:Just a few more pennies
>y+2:Need more pennies, the fatties need more bypasses
>y+3:Just give me x% of your earnings, its for a greater purpose, Think about the children!

With you fucks it never ends with "Just x and we can solve y!" It's always more and more of money you didn't earn. If you want to give your paycheck up, that's fine, but don't ask others to do the same.

>>133203078
>Healthcare is a right. It's not illegal.
do you even know what a "right" is?

>>133203194
>WAAAAHHH PEOPLE PROFIT FROM THEIR WORK

Profit is the price paid for timely delivery of goods and services. It's not some made up number plucked from the money tree that you and your Class D Retard socialist buddies think all money grows on

>>133213505
A construct built upon morals, in the natural world rights simply do not exist beyond being apex predator.

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>LIFE, liberty, and the persuit of happiness

Without access to affordable healthcare, that first one goes out the window.

Why do conservatives think right to life ends at birth?

>>133213645
Typical roach has no clue what rights are - many such cases!

>>133212744
This is the USA, greed knows no bounds. The carbon tax system was touted as some great mending of corporate abuse and when implemented the people controlling it turned it into a trade commodity for profit.

>>133212980
>being taxed for coverage with a proverbial gun to your head is different from a law forcing you to be covered by an insurance company

The both of you, I'm not against a proper universal system. I seriously doubt at this time the USA government is capable of providing a difficult to abuse, fair system which eschews profits for saving money. Pharma companies demand so much power to have their R&D function. The balancing act would either have USA's medical research suffer enormously or the costs really won't change much in the end. We already see that the mandated AAHCA plans have cost considerably more than their old counterparts, and that the program itself is a financial failure. Charging the young who both don't need expensive coverage and can hardly afford it to cover the poor, while charging the old obscene amounts for the coverage they require. You can't escape the basic fact that there just isn't enough going around to keep everyone covered AND taken care of.

>>133213645
In the natural world we see animals develop a culture and a behavioral hierarchy all the time. I don't see the USA's granted "rights" as anything more than a system of verbally codifying behavior that can generally be agreed upon for the well being of a society.
The Constitution says: "Here is a direct and evident description of how a free people should treat others"

I can have a gun to protect myself and my community because it's immoral for you to rob or kill others.
I have a protection for my speech (thoughts) because totalitarian leaders silence their opposition.
I have a guarantee for healthcare service that can be forced onto the financial burden of someone else if I can't pay

Which of these doesn't belong?

>>133202372
>make health care unaffordable
'g-get a job!'
>min wage is like 7$/hr
'what!! we can't raise minimum wage!!'
>disparity, inequality, spiralling out of control
'i-its AAAALL a JEWISH conspiracy!'

this place isn't worth the server space it occupies

>>133213867
Again someone thinks "right to life" means someone else is expected to keep you alive.

>>133213867
If your parents fail to secure resources for your linage to continue, it might just be their fault. If they don't teach you about the risks and dangers of living such as :Hot stove = burns, They have failed to prepare you and you'll die because a 2 tons vehicle didn't respect your "Right of Way" rather than you looking both ways before crossing a street. If YOU fail to secure resources to ensure successful living at working age, you literally can't even blame your parents unless they somehow sabotage your efforts to get a job("They didn't drive me to my interview!" doesn't count you lazy fuck) Why do Libs feel that everyone should be responsible for people that keep a quadriplegic infant that has no promise for Quality of life, alive(if you can call it that)?

>>133214231
I was wrong - you clearly understand rights.

>>133214128
That's my point of why it's not a right, and why in itself 'rights' are relatively flimsy when cast in the grand scheme of life, as in catastrophic events we see most of these ideals kicked aside, which >>133214104
doesn't quite understand, like the fucktarded cuck it is.

>>133204540
Americans thinks all 1st world countries have a single payer system because burgers are clueless about the outside world.

>>133214375
*American liberals

>>133213867
Why are lefties so ignorant about constitutional history? They prefer to play semantic games (or should I say semen-tic [or should I say, semetic]) to substitute for a valid position.
They do this all the time with religion, criticism in terms of Christianity and defense in terms of Islam.
I don't get it. It's like they build points off of word games and feelings. And then pretend to be the intellectual.

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>>133213505
All rights granted by the Constitution are negative rights. A right to healthcare would be like the right to bear arms or free speech. Not the government providing a Glock or TV station. If you really want this made clear look at the third amendment.

>>133214174
>not wanting to give up fake points society invented called money to keep yourself and others alive

>not realizing your fake points collection hinges on the lower class believing in it and being alive

It'd be great if we could just get a nukefest going with nk so you morons die out and we can start over

>>133214618
>lower class
Too obvious.

>>133214413
you shouldn't say anything ...ever

>>133214690
>no argument
ahhh /pol/tards

More posts like this

>>133213272
>You depend on our military
no we dont, come try as burger. We will send your carrier to the bottom of itämeri

>implying
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_research_and_development_spending

Higher spending between EU and US can easily be attributed to the nightmare that is FDA. By the way Finnish % of GDP is higher than the one in US

>>133214766
We don't have class in America, that was my point. Only commies and leftists talk about "muh class".

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>>133205035
>if this was the case small town america wouldn't have any doctors because not enough of them get sick every year to work a livable wage as one
>doctors would have to set up shop in areas where there are enough people so that they could make money
>either that or the health care providers in small areas would charge outrageous fees
Isn't that already happening in the 40% of counties that have only one provider?

It is your right to have society care about your health as long as you're contributing. United shitstains are fucking retarded. I wish with all my heart and willpower that I could genocide every single one of you with extreme suffering.

>>133214978
>It is your right to have society care about your health as long as you're contributing.
What are you even trying to say here?

>>133215218
No one cares.

>>133215218
Leftist/FBI honepot. Report those posts when you see them.

>>133214978
The argument inherently hinges on a topic that I never see anybody discuss, natural selection.

Fundamentally the argument can be broken down to this:
Is the cost, both financially and societally, of implementing assured care for everyone less than the loss of forward progress as a species?
Is the cost of "letting the chips fall where they may" more than the worth of us progressing as a species?

People will have to define what their argument really means and then pony up a lot of hard evidence on both sides before I can be convinced of any course of action.

I would remind the board of a (paraphrased) quote

>The brutal choice is sometimes a necessary and lesser evil

>The argument inherently hinges on a topic that I never see anybody discuss, natural selection.
>>133211394

>>133202372
Before Nixon, healthcare was not-for-profit

>>133214128
>the pharmaceutical market and the insurance market are the same thing
Just stop it anon, that's not what anyone is talking about.
>You can't escape the basic fact that there just isn't enough going around to keep everyone covered AND taken care of.
We already pay that much fucking money what about this is hard to understand.
Do you have any idea how much we already pay to give health coverage to the poor and the elderly and the homeless? How much we already subsidize the private insurance market, and how much individuals need to take out of pocket for their coverage?

But no, even if the per capita costs go down, the fact that this is coming from tax money now and not routed through the trillion dollar insurance market makes this unfeasible.
They've really done a number on you, anon.

>>133213628
>He thinks the insurance industry provides something of value by being privatized
WAAAAHHHH YOU CAN'T COLLECTIVIZE RISK IN A NONPROFIT WAY THAT WOULD BE SOCIALISM

>>133215851
Yeah before we indulge in two morons yelling let's not forget that denying service is illegal.

>>133216320
Please, instead of throwing around what we already know, explain to me a fixed system that sets fair prices and controls abuse by those in charge.

Explain to me how the free market hasn't already implemented systems of spreading the cost some can't pay to others who can, how it isn't already about as efficient as you could expect a gov't institution to actualize, and how this isn't any more than throwing a new label on the same package so others can have their cake.

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>>133214825

Everyone buys at least some weapons and military tech from the US. Even ISIS does. But you're probably not as cucked by us since you're not in NATO and we haven't build military bases all over your country.

I didn't mean "spending" on research. I meant actual contributions to medical science. Even our Liberals who would like to change our healthcare system to socialist shit admit that the US leads medical innovation worldwide. The sheer number of research papers published every year in the US is higher than the next top 5 countries in medical technology combined.

You think someone would create life saving medical technology in a socialist system where they would gain little to no money or reward for their hard work? There is far more incentive for people to work harder in a capitalist system as the more they innovate the more rewards they receive. I would never want to be treated by a Doctor in a socialist system, they are not trying their best to get more reward they are just performing a daily routine for a shit salary. Europe actually has a shortage of doctors for a reason, they all move to the fucking US because they know that they'll make more money.
Canadians with money fucking FLOOD our border for our healthcare daily. But they have free healthcare in Canada..? wtf what could that possibly mean?
really makes you think

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>>133204720
I agree
you can thank your republican congressmen for killing the original ACA bill and denying us a half decent system
Bullshit, Liberals got exactly what they wanted when they had a supermajority. They not get a single conservative vote but passed the ACA as it was. They could have pushed anything they wanted. You're a retard and should go KYS now.

>>133203807
>"greedy"
Stopped reading there.

>>133216652
Why do you refuse to take examples from the other first world countries who already implement exactly these policies and come away with a massively lower per capita health cost, while also maintaining a higher standard of health? Is that so hard or unreasonable?

The insurance industry is not efficient in any way, it is designed specifically to be inefficient because that is the profit margin. They exist because the public pays in a huge amount more than they end up paying out.

This is one of the few things a government can actually be good at because it barely requires any actual goods or services being provided, simply that it is funded and overseen.
The government as a single buyer is in a strong position to normalize medication costs which is what every other western country has done. Insurance companies have done this at a much smaller scale but individually represent only a percentage of the domestic market and have less bargaining power (and also keep a good deal of the bargained difference for themselves as profit).

As usual the free market system has socialized the serious costs already while privatizing the profits. The poor and elderly cost so much to insure that they are unprofitable so the public insures them, while the healthy and employed pay for insurance or have it paid by their employer.

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>>133202372
Health is the right, healthcare is the service that people can choose to pay for while exercising that right.

It's possible to get really spergy and lay out how rights are all bullshit anyway but that's for another thread.

It's amazing how /pol/ has so many capitalist cucks.

Almost every other first world nation has figured this shit out, we don't need to have such exorbatan healthcare prices, a single payer system absolutely could work. Stop acting like America should still be this paragon of rugged individualism, we can and should have universal healthcare, if we weren't so wasteful with our tax money and didn't keep giving tax cuts to the super rich

It boggles my mind how so many of you are so against policies that would actually benefit you. Yes, I realize that a lot of people who advocate for universal healthcare also advocate for bullshit like immigration, but that doesn't mean you have to. Healthcare doesn't have to be this bad or this expensive in America.

>>133217716
>lower per capita health cost, while also maintaining a higher standard of health
Americans are stupid and overindulge. Control for the physically unhealthy with any country you want to compare and tell me the life expectancy of both.
> They exist because the public pays in a huge amount more than they end up paying out
So put into law controls that stop insurance from abusing their position and fixing prices. I've suggested this twice already.
>simply that it is funded and overseen
The government is owned by the corporations, how do you not understand the political mire that is Washington D.C?
>As usual the free market system has socialized the serious costs already while privatizing the profits. The poor and elderly cost so much to insure that they are unprofitable so the public insures them, while the healthy and employed pay for insurance or have it paid by their employer.

So the system already in place does the same exact thing.

But you've left out one very big factor in the discussion, in fact you never touched on it with me.
Pharma and health coverage costs are intricately linked. USA has nearly the highest amount of medical advancement in the entire world. I already posited that changing the system either means substantially reducing the research money for the entire system, or otherwise the costs won't change much at all.

>>133217992
libertarianism is a mental illness just like marxism tbqh

>>133218099

But why do Americans over indulge? Stupidty might be a reason, but also remember that in tougher conditions people will make worse decisions. A lot of Americans are depressed about living in a society with low wages, high stress, long hours, and so they'll gravitate toward immediately satisfying unhealthy food.

>>133202372
"Care" and "service are different. Care implies guardianship. "Service" implies a contract between equals at law. So long as the government licenses physicians, rather than private orgs certifying them, thus making them de facto state agents, obtaining true services from them is not possible, whether you pay them or the government does.

>>133218099
>americans are intrinsically just so much more unhealthy
Maybe because they have shoddy preventative care and avoid going to the doctor so they end up with preventable diabetes and such, anon. Otherwise move alone. Our obesity rates are normalizing among the other western countries. We aren't some huge health anomaly.
>stop them from fixing prices
Oh so washington is too corrupt to run a health office (apparently by still being owned by the insurance markets which no longer exist) but it will legislate against the existing insurance markets? It won't even work because they're not price inflating directly, the hospitals are price inflating because they know the insurance exists.
>So the system already in place does the same thing
No it doesn't, anon. We pay out of pocket massively more than even the insurance market would be charged, because the prices are fixed for the insurance market. Its like feeding the homeless at a five star restaurant because there is no other choice.

>pharma
Pharma is only a part of our health care costs. Procedural costs are also through the roof. Look at a long term hospitalization bill and its not in the hundreds of thousands because of the drugs (although even generic drugs are charged through the roof like bags of saline and shit).
I don't think anyone disagrees with the need for pharma innovation but we can fund that research directly and it can be publicly owned afterwords instead of them privately recouping research costs through price gouging (and still coming away with a huge profit).

The effort it takes for people on this website to come out and accurately describe their positions and knowledge beyond one line quips is ridiculous.

And I don't understand this line of thinking. Yes we may not have a "right" to it, but what if the majority of Americans want to collectively support a single payer system? I mean we already do it with roads, the police, firestations and other stuff. Most people would probably find it to their individual benefit to support a collective system

>>133217913
>healthcare is the service that people can choose to pay for while exercising that right.
"Care" is a duty that comes with an office or status as warden, owner or guardian. It is no "right" to either give or receive. You're thinking of medical services (which are imposible so long as the government pretends to license physicians and certify medical schools).

>>133219065
Road building contracts can be a mess of all kinds. When the budget allocation runs out because the unionized workers spend 6 of their 8 hours shooting the shit instead of getting anything done, you're left with half finished sidewalks, the unfinished parts sinking more and more from weather while the next fiscal budget is decided.

The police are often scandalous and their interests do not stray far from finding petty faults to bolster city revenue. The new tax man going "door to door" so to speak. I do believe it was big news on /pol/ some time ago when New York released a statement that they are not here to "Serve and Protect" people in need.

>firestations
80% volunteers
>other stuff
Solid description.

I don't disagree with that last point, I argue heavily to what extent we can fix the current insurance system to everyone's benefit.

>>133202750

Maybe you should practice better hygiene and not lick sick children.

>>133202750
It should. But if you're poor you get Medicaid so yeah...

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>>133202372
>all these non-geograpgic flags

Do rights arise from necessity or autonomy?

>>133217716
What first world countries? I have been researching health care systems in Europe and everyone is different. For example the "best" system which is supposed to be New Zealand's healthcare system it's really not much different than the US. It works with a merge of private insurances and government expense. One of the key differences I have noted in Europe healthcare systems is that in most of them don't have a free pass to go visit an specialist whenever you want to, and the PCP or General Practitioner DO acts as a gate keeper. Health plans in the US usually allow for people to visit specialists whenever they want in PPO plans.

>>133220975
Shhh, shhh, let the filthy commie dream his dreams

>>133203120
>implying it's possible to immigrate to Europe if you're ethnically European
Lmfao, were you born yesterday?

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>>133202372
I like this very much.

>>133202750
That would be nice, thanks.

>>133203078
You think cops and military pay for their own guns and equipment? Jabroni

>>133202750

Its called medicaid and the government pays for all that shit. I know you're just being an idiot but go learn something. Most healthcare talk is completely exaggerated nonsense. Tens of millions of people are raping the system of its resources which is why they want to reform it, not because we don't already pay for us these freeloaders and of course all kids get care.