What exactly is going to happen after automation becomes the

>>133040673
>whats stopping me from raising prices
Competition

STAAAHHHP OP BASIC ECONOMICS HAS NO PLACE IN MY FANTASY ABOUT NEVER HAVING TO WORK

>>133040673
>Alright, so we start getting paid a basic income from the government. What's stopping Mr. Convenience Store owner from upping his prices? What's stopping Mrs. Landlady from skyrocketing your rent? What's stopping that cocksucker from charging me $20 for a gram?

We already have welfare like food stamps and subsidized housing, what makes you think prices will change all that much?

>>133040673
the destruction of the middle class

Anyone hoping for universal basic income is delusional.

Won't happen. The gloablist elites thrive on a desperate workforce.

What'll happen is an extremely ruthless labor market, but the media and the government will do their best to cover-up how bad it is.

>>133041406

>Won't happen. The gloablist elites thrive on a desperate workforce.

Zuckerberg, Bezos, et al. doesn't need a workforce, they just need idiots with money to blow on stupid shit. And there's no one stupider than a person who thinks UBI is a good idea.

>>133041089
>We already have welfare like food stamps and subsidized housing
I think that's a little bit difference considering not everyone is on benefits.

>>133041406
But you still have to pay a desperate workforce. I could understand from their position why they'd rather fire 20 people and hire one robit technician to work on the 20 new robits.

Labour isn't cheap, a literally unconscious assemblage of gears and rotors isn't in the long run. The middle class being wiped out and not able to find a job is going to require the government coming in and taking a slice of the corporate pie to give out so people don't starve to death.

>>133041649
I don't think it's a good idea, I just think it's an inevitability. Ontario said they're going to "trial run" it.

>>133040673
Since nobody wants to have an Utopia, even if it's easily doable, the middle class will be fucked beyond reality, criminality will rise, riots everywhere, leading to anarchy. While the upper class will enjoy safety and riches at first, it won't be long until they'll be thrown in the street and die for a handful of beans.
Thus, the economy and society will be destroyed and in maybe 300 years humanity will have killed itself off.

>>133041720

>I don't think it's a good idea, I just think it's an inevitability.

I'm actually rooting for it to happen, it'll just bring the collapse that much faster and then we can be done with the r-strategists for a dozen generations or so.

The idea of my kids, their kids, etc. growing up without a leeching underclass conniving to take their hard-earned work product gives me a serious civilization boner.

>>133041665

>The middle class being wiped out and not able to find a job is going to require the government coming in and taking a slice of the corporate pie to give out so people don't starve to death.

I would be okay with this if the people receiving this income also agree to be sterilized.

This wouldn't have been a problem if we didn't accept immigrants.

>>133042074
Didn't we already see this happen in Rome before they caved in and started giving away free bread and shit?

It didn't cause them to collapse, but there sure was chaos for a while. All these third-worlders coming in is what's going to turn this place into a chaotic slum.

>>133042315
>I would be okay with this if the people receiving this income also agree to be sterilized.
Just save yourself the time and trouble and cut your little slug off now, bud.

>>133040673
UBI just means people now get income from elsewhere. How does this affect the supply/demand of a certain good/service? It doesn't so price won't change

>>133042448

>Didn't we already see this happen in Rome before they caved in and started giving away free bread and shit?
>It didn't cause them to collapse

Edward Gibbon begs to differ.

>>133042628
>UBI just means people now get income from elsewhere.
But from where? Is HST or GST going to rise or are we going to take a slice of the corporate pie?

I'd rather corporations not get any bigger than they already are now.

>>133042701
Rome collapsed because of over immigration to the point military ethos was non existent and the legionaries were replaced with mercaderies that would rather open the gates and loot than take a measly pay.

>>133040931

Literally ended the thread withthis single response.

OP, much like the vast majority of pol you are fucking retarded

>>133042899

>Rome collapsed because of over immigration to the point military ethos was non existent and the legionaries were replaced with mercaderies that would rather open the gates and loot than take a measly pay.

All caused by r-selection. Tell me, what policy is the epitome of r-selection?

>>133042903
Explain to me, the retard.

>>133042899
If companies aren't paying for labour then they will have much higher net profits. Hence governments will just tax businesses. It doesn't necessarily imply that VAT will increase

>>133043161
*tax business more, obviously

>>133040931
/thread

>>133040673
>basic income
Yeah, I'm sure the government is just going to hand out money for no reason. Are any of you actually stupid enough to think ANYONE would give ANYONE money for nothing?

Tax the robots

>>133040673
>What exactly is going to happen after automation becomes the norm for industries?

Millions will be out of work with no opportunity because they'll give up once they lose their jobs.

>Basic income from the government?

If by this you mean millions more on the dole taking gibs, then yeah, I guess.

>What's stopping Mr. Convenience Store owner from upping his prices?

Nothing, unless we go full commie.

>What's stopping Mrs. Landlady from skyrocketing your rent?

Same thing.

>What's stopping that cocksucker from charging me $20 for a gram?

Legalization and free market LE WEED DUDE competition, I suppose.

Any more questions?

>>133043374
It seems drastic when you make it sound like it will happen overnight but realistically it will happen gradually. Look how far social welfare has come

>>133043068
Again, it had nothing to do with giving away free bread and everything to do with importing foreigners to replace Romans who saw no point in being a legionary anymore.

>>133043374
>Yeah, I'm sure the government is just going to hand out money for no reason.

They already do.

>>133043161
>Hence governments will just tax businesses.
So we're effectively going to under their thumb more than we already are.

Why don't they just pay us in coupons for their businesses? Same thing really.

We already have a welfare system so a basic isn't that remarkable a change.

It could be viewed as privatizing the welfare system by just handing people money that they can spend as they like rather than giving subsidies for special housing or food.

As far as automation, it's unlikely to ever get far enough to automate everything imaginable the way some like to fantasize. There are so many steps to just driving a car that it'd be impossible to imagine automating that, how would you even handle someone leaving an item in the vehicle or stealing something from the vehicle? How would you handle random changes to the route due to construction or just because a passenger preferred a certain route?

When it comes to food you have to eye so much bullshit that even McDonald's hasn't been able to automate everything which they've actually tried to do. Even if you had to pay the person in the back at McDonald's $20 an hour they could still probably make a profit, the only problem is they'd have to hire fewer people and start requiring individuals to perform more tasks which is something they've been scared to do for ages. It's actually an issue in most restaurants that they hire immensely more people than are necessary, likely because they want to micromanage each person and ensure there's no need for anyone to have any sort of skill with cooking.

>>133040673
What's going to happen when automation becomes the norm for replicating books, harvesting food, and moving large amounts of dirt?

>>133044063
Book binders became factory workers that became robots.

>>133040673
Computer Capitalism. Money will be minted and distributed by computer systems. Workers will select a job from the computer and be paid from the computer. Bosses will still exist. Money paid by the computer will be exchangeable for goods and services. People will be able to create their own customized job requests via computer(we're already seeing this today). The primary difference between computer capitalism and what we know today, is brick and mortar banks will lose power and influence, so will central banks, since money can be minted by any computer system. Some entrepreneurs won't have to go begging for money, they can create their own economic systems and communities like WoW and Runescape.

>>133040673
They still need our babies for meat and blood etc, maybe we'll just be farmed more like cattle.

>>133042448
>>133042899
"Gee look at this massive drain of state resources that made large parts of their citizenry become cucks and leeches and then they collapsed, for some reason that surely has nothing to do with it"
"Let's do it to our civilization!"
t. a fucking leaf

>>133043078
>Being this stupid

If Mc D's wanted to sell me a double hamburger for 2.99 and burger king see's this and lowers there price to 2.50$ guess who has to lower there price or risk losing the turf war....

>>133043912

>Again, it had nothing to do with giving away free bread and everything to do with importing foreigners to replace Romans who saw no point in being a legionary anymore.

You don't seem to understand the nature of r-selection. The Romans for centuries dealt with resource shortage and existential threats to their society, both from without and from within. In the process they bred a population that was accustomed to hardship, ready for competition, and fiercely loyal to their in-group.

The annona was just the manifestation of the Romans' gradual shift from a K-selected society to an r-selected society. They abhorred combat, they expected free resources from their colonies. The barbarians arriving at the gates wasn't the beginning of the end, it was the coup de grace for a civilization that began its decline decades, if not centuries before, as the Romans became too accustomed to the abundant resources offered by their empire. The reference to Gibbon wasn't facetious; this is in essence his entire thesis, though obviously he doesn't use the r/K terminology.

In any case it's clear that the only way for our or any civilization to survive is to cultivate K-selection at all times, as much as feasible for as long as possible. UBI is the antithesis to this approach. But, as I alluded to earlier, our civilization is beyond saving. It's time to crash the plane with no survivors and let our children reboot society in a way that they and their progeny will be able to thrive without r-strategists seeking to bring them down.

>>133041649
>Zuckerberg, Bezos, et al. doesn't need a workforce
T His is why US has 200% tariffs on Chinese goods. Yeah, oh wait, no.

>>133045662
Last time I checked Burger King and McDonald's have different prices but still operate within 100 feet of one another.

>>133043161
>Hence governments will just tax businesses
Hence business will pack their robots and move to tax free countries. There are no borders for capital (there are for labor)
>but in tax free countries they would not have access to high skilled labo~
>oh, wait

>>133045601
I don't even know what the fuck you're blabbering about.

>>133045745

>T His is why US has 200% tariffs on Chinese goods. Yeah, oh wait, no.

FANG doesn't care about tariffs. The Zuck will gladly pay 90% or more of his income in taxes to support UBI because he knows that the only path for the money is right back to him. Bezos just has to buy cheap shit from China and with AWS and Prime he's moving away from physical products anyway.

This is the end game of the so-called 1%, they don't give a shit about the proles, they just want to close the loop. Of course the idiots who support this shit don't care that they are tools, all they hear is free $$$ for sitting on their ass and doing nothing. "Oh but I'll be free to pursue art---" Shut the fuck up.

>the economy is changing
>communism must be the answer
You commies have been using this same propaganda since Ford invented the assembly line

>but muh automation though, its different this time
Just off yourself you worthless nigger.

>>133046767
>Of course the idiots who support this shit don't care that they are tools
And you're trying to tell me people aren't tools right now? What exactly is phil socially wrong about someone dedicating their time to art and their children and opposed to sitting on an assemble line screwing on toothpaste caps?

Seems like this pride in working thing is all a big meme. You should want to work so you can survive, not because Mr. Shekelstienberg says it makes you a good person.

>>133047066
>muh UBI is COMMUNISM!

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>>133040673
Is nobody else hungering for a world where it's normal for at least one person in your family to grow their own food

Where you generate 80% of your own energy, including wood grown nearby for the stove

Where everyone in your family knows at least one old art or craft

>>133047427

>What exactly is phil socially wrong about someone dedicating their time to art and their children and opposed to sitting on an assemble line screwing on toothpaste caps?

You said it yourself, because exactly one of these things leads to you creating a product that has value you can exchange for the goods and services you need to survive.

In my experience you either get satisfaction from being productive or you don't, one side doesn't convert to the other nor does one understand the other. The difference of course is that with UBI or other crackpot schemes the group who doesn't want to work gets to leech off the group who does, instead of living in destitution or (ideally) starving to death as they ought to.

Of course on here the fags who espouse such schemes try to cover up their inherent lack of usefulness by dreaming up the literal deus ex machina of automation, or the even more ludicrous idea that, being unburdened by the need to provide for themselves like every other living organism on the planet, they can instead produce something that apparently has value to humanity, just not the kind of value that might feasibly lead to the most common indicator of value, i.e., an exchange for money.

Naturally this hypothesis bears out in our current welfare-supported underclass, all of whom are philosopher-poets who make ideal role models for their not-at-all-neglected children. But hey, once we get the UBI gravy flowing we'll have more Mass Effect-themed erotic fanfiction, or something, obviously all of you who aren't talented enough to make money working for a living can pound out something worth the expense of feeding and housing you.

>>133045662

Competition? Hah you plebs.

If that were the case why doesn't everything hit rock bottom price within a few years? I'll tell you why.

BECAUSE THE RIVAL COMPANIES AGREE TO KEEP THE PRICES INFLATED. THEY BOTH KNOW A RACE TO THE BOTTOM HURTS EVERYBODY.

>>133040673
>What exactly is going to happen after automation becomes the norm for industries? Basic income from the government?
Adaptation.

This is basically the second industrial revolution.

People are just freaking out about it because (((The media))) wants them to.

>>133041665
The system we have set up right now is
>be poor get gibs
>be not poor pay taxes

The not poor still have more spending money than the poor, so how exactly would an UBI introduce more inflation? All proposals for UBI generally get rid of welfare and increase taxes.

>>133049323

>Basically the second industrial revolution

Yeah if the industrial revolution involved a NEW FUCKING SPECIES WITH SUPERIOR BRAINS ENTERING THE POPULATION

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>>133040673
>I already pay $20 a gram

I hate northwest florida

>>133049681
20$ a gram? What the actual fuck? And who pays that willingly?

>>133048874
>You said it yourself, because exactly one of these things leads to you creating a product that has value you can exchange for the goods and services you need to survive.
Is value objective or subjective? Is a painting by Michelangelo worth more or less than an apple? Why?

>instead of living in destitution or (ideally) starving to death as they ought to.
So they ought to die because of something they can't control? They should pull up their bootstraps and do... what? I want to hear what options these people have from your perspective.

>Of course on here the fags who espouse such schemes try to cover up their inherent lack of usefulness by dreaming up the literal deus ex machina of automation
Right, we get that if you sit in a single spot for two weeks you're going to die. That's been established throughout the past millions years, so what are these people supposed to do?

>inb4 just die
I get you're a nihilist, but that's not a real answer that works in reality.

>>133047427
>dedicating their time to art
Hahahahahaha you actually believe this

>>133047427
>oy very got, you don't want all these africans and Muslims flooding your country
>too bad no more income for you tehehehe

>>133050524
One of many obvious possibilities. Replace doing art with "doing what you want."

But oh no, doing what you want to do is bad unless you spend you mandatory 8 hours doing repetitive tasks. I'm not a Commie but I'm sure as fuck not a retard who deludes himself into thinking they actually like to work for someone.

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>>133050524
>>133050779
>doesn't realize he has an ID

hmm

>>133049805

>Is value objective or subjective? Is a painting by Michelangelo worth more or less than an apple? Why?

Oh look, it's another "NO ONE UNDERSTANDS THE VALUE I BRING TO THE WORLD" post. I always like to imagine you guys were emos in high school and you never grew out of it, you just transferred the angsty snowflake BS to another area of your life.

Here's the deal. You know what the going price is for work, you know what it takes to keep your ass alive on a continuous basis. Connect the dots. "Oh, but I'll have to work at a job I hate." Everyone works at a job they hate. I bet your ancestors didn't like walking out of their cold-ass cave in the morning to hunt down a Brontosaurus or whatever. No one cares. If you want to eat tonight get your ass to work like everyone else does.

>So they ought to die because of something they can't control? They should pull up their bootstraps and do... what? I want to hear what options these people have from your perspective.

>Right, we get that if you sit in a single spot for two weeks you're going to die. That's been established throughout the past millions years, so what are these people supposed to do?

Here's a thought. By the most liberal estimates we puny humans have a couple of decades until Skynet takes over. If you're so concerned about the mass unemployment this is going to generate, then why don't you, among all of these people or any subset thereof, gather your resources during this interval to purchase arable land and learn to grow your own fucking food? Then it doesn't matter, you have the means for your own survival and even better you don't have to give a dime to the capitalist pigs who left you to rot.

>I get you're a nihilist, but that's not a real answer that works in reality.

Of course it is. It worked perfectly well for the whole of humanity right up to the past two to three generations, as well as any other living organism in existence.

>>133051038
>Oh look, it's another "NO ONE UNDERSTANDS THE VALUE I BRING TO THE WORLD" post. I always like to imagine you guys were emos in high school and you never grew out of it, you just transferred the angsty snowflake BS to another area of your life.

Going to answer the question or not?

>>133040931
The savy merchant doesn't know much about Canada's bullshit economic laws involving outside interests.

>>133050796
Dude you can "do what you want" but most people will just continue to drink or get high or shitpost on 4chan like you

Do you really think that giving everyone a basic income suddenly everyone will "find themselves" and begin life as an artist or whatever bullshit, that's so naive its ridiculous

>get money
>don't have to work
>but I'll decide to start suddenly doing "art" for no reason instead of drinking like before

Dude you are so pathetic, its painly obvious to everyone but legit commies and idiots that take the UBI bait that you people just don't want to work and want to continue getting high

Let me tell you what will happen after automation:
The market will adjust and people will find new jobs, but you won't because you're a worthless welfare nigger

>>133051297
What if I want to work AND get high though?

>>133051297
>Dude you can "do what you want" but most people will just continue to drink or get high or shitpost on 4chan like you

Now they'd be doing it for longer than they would have been after getting off work. Besides, not everyone is a drunk or even goes on 4chan, so that's literally not even an argument.

>Do you really think that giving everyone a basic income suddenly everyone will "find themselves" and begin life as an artist or whatever bullshit, that's so naive its ridiculous

I literally said in the last post replace doing art with "doing what you want." You could be doing art or you could be planting trees, or you could be running your own business to supplement your income. Is this an argument to take away what free time people already have now?

>Dude you are so pathetic, its painly obvious to everyone but legit commies and idiots that take the UBI bait that you people just don't want to work and want to continue getting high
It's funny you'll always falling back on the "sitting on your ass doing nothing" when people actually don't find enjoyment from that.

>people will find new jobs
What new jobs? We're talking about a class of people who cannot work without their hands.

>>133051131

>Going to answer the question or not?

I answered it just fine. You do realize that Michelangelo produced all of his most famous works on commission, right? Maybe once everyone is getting free money from the gubment they'll want to pay you for your art as well.

>>133051802
I'm not even going to bother responding or reading your reddit formatted post you fucking faggot

Go smoke some more dope you fucking hippy

>>133051991
No, you didn't.

>You do realize that Michelangelo produced all of his most famous works on commission, right?
Right, but him working on commission isn't what gave value to his art, it's what gave him time to make valuable art without having to stop in between to go jerk off some guy on the street.

He could have still painted the exact same picture if he was self-employed, it would have just taken longer.

>Maybe once everyone is getting free money from the gubment they'll want to pay you for your art as well.
Highly unlikely. I don't even like art, I'm a journalist. Maybe people will want to pay to read my words like they already do now.

>>133052249
You're fucking stupid, that's why.

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People have been asking that question since the invention of the tractor. The same thing will happen as always. The workers will get a job where the economy needs them. Robots increase productivity and raise the standard of living. Stop being regressive.

>>133052759
>Robots increase productivity and raise the standard of living.
How do the profits of a business I'm no longer employed at benefit me unless you're taxing them for the same cost they would have doled out in wages?

>>133052345

>Right, but him working on commission isn't what gave value to his art, it's what gave him time to make valuable art without having to stop in between to go jerk off some guy on the street.

The key word there is "valuable". Michelangelo produced art to a level of quality where people were willing to give him money to complete it. And the key word there is "willing", he didn't expect the government to take it from others via coercion and give it to him. But yeah, I'm sure that there are a million Michelangelos out there who would paint a million Sistine Chapels were it not for their 9-to-5.

>Highly unlikely. I don't even like art, I'm a journalist. Maybe people will want to pay to read my words like they already do now.

Ugh.

The hunter-gatherer system replaced individual foraging.
Farming replaced hunter-gatherers.
The industrial revolution replaces the majority of farmers.
Automation will replace the majority of industry workers.

It's just how tech goes, bro. People will just find new jobs.

>>133052345
I don't need to read your post to know its you talking about "but people really will become world renowned artists, everyone will be like da vinci" trash. Go fuck yourself commie

>>133052905
When production gets cheaper the prices of goods decrease. Therefore, the consumers (the people) will save money. The newly laid off worker is forced to work somewhere else where he is needed. It may be sad but it progresses society forward. We wouldn't have as many doctors, teachers, and scientists today if it took 50 men to plow a field. Machines taking jobs is good. Sad, but good.

>>133053057
>The key word there is "valuable". Michelangelo produced art to a level of quality where people were willing to give him money to complete it. And the key word there is "willing", he didn't expect the government to take it from others via coercion and give it to him.

Are you seriously still taking this as me saying everyone is going to become Michelangelos after UBI? What the hell is wrong with you? Nothing in ANY of my posts in indicating this. You said it's philosophically wrong for someone to dedicate their time to art when they don't need to do anything to survive other than receive a cheque in the mail.

That's called acting in rational self-interest and there's absolutely nothing wrong with it. I really think you believe in the whole "I take pride in my work!" BS. You taking pride in what you do is fine, that doesn't mean I'd have to enjoy flipping burgers. If anything everyone should take UBI as a opportunity to spend time with their kids and teach them things. That's more valuable than any tube of toothpaste that you screwed a cap onto, even if someone is willing to pay a million dollars for it.

>>133053360
You really have to be the Dixie I'm talking to.

>>133052345
>Right, but him working on commission isn't what gave value to his art
It's what gave it value to him. He would have fucking starved to death if he wasn't being paid for his work. This is the key point that you are avoiding in all of your braindead posts because you don't want to face the reality but here it is: People must be productive in order to survive. If everyone sits on their ass and waits for a check in the mail no food is grown and we all starve.

tl;dr go fuck yourself you lazy piece of shit

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>>133054752
>It's what gave it value to him. He would have fucking starved to death if he wasn't being paid for his work.

And you purposely ignored the part where I said he could paint the same picture if he was self-employed. Good job, retard.

>People must be productive in order to survive.
To which I again, fucking said "Right, we get that if you sit in a single spot for two weeks you're going to die. That's been established throughout the past millions years, so what are these people supposed to do?">>133049805

Seems like YOU are the lazy shit for not reading my posts, or you just can't fucking read.

>If everyone sits on their ass and waits for a check in the mail no food is grown and we all starve.
Unless there's UBI, which is what the entire thread is about.

Don't know how someone can be this stupid, but it's possible.

>>133055039
>And you purposely ignored the part where I said he could paint the same picture if he was self-employed. Good job, retard.
I didn't ignore it. It's just not relevant. If he painted it on his own time it wouldn't have been valuable.

>"Right, we get that if you sit in a single spot for two weeks you're going to die. That's been established throughout the past millions years, so what are these people supposed to do?"
If you acknowledge that productive is necessary to survival, why support UBI?

>Unless there's UBI
And where does this magical boon come from? From productive people. Why create a system that strongly disincentives production if you know it is necessary for survival?

>>133053936

>You said it's philosophically wrong for someone to dedicate their time to art when they don't need to do anything to survive other than receive a cheque in the mail. That's called acting in rational self-interest and there's absolutely nothing wrong with it.

You can decide to act in "rational self-interest" all you like but that doesn't mean it's going to happen. For example, it's not in my "rational self-interest" for the state to take half of my income and distribute it to any number of leeches who decide they don't want to work because they don't enjoy it.

This sort of behavior is called r-selection and it is cancer to civilization. Resources aren't free and you aren't entitled to them unless you're willing to work to get them.

>I really think you believe in the whole "I take pride in my work!" BS. You taking pride in what you do is fine, that doesn't mean I'd have to enjoy flipping burgers.

No one cares what you enjoy doing. Again, your ancestors didn't enjoy hunting megafauna or picking rotten berries or tilling a field or any other activity they undertook to survive. You aren't special.

>If anything everyone should take UBI as a opportunity to spend time with their kids and teach them things. That's more valuable than any tube of toothpaste that you screwed a cap onto, even if someone is willing to pay a million dollars for it.

What exactly do you plan on teaching your kids? How to cash a government check in the mail? Hopefully you'll be teaching them how to avoid rape gangs and what rotting foods in dumpsters are and are not safe for consumption, because that's what they'll be doing when your scheme to get something for nothing inevitably bankrupts the state.

>>133055452
>If he painted it on his own time it wouldn't have been valuable.
That doesn't make any sense. He still puts in the same hours, he just doesn't have to take breaks to make a living while doing so.

>If you acknowledge that productive is necessary to survival, why support UBI?
Production is necessary for survival but it's also necessary for millions of unemployable retards to not die in the streets due to starvation.

>And where does this magical boon come from?
Probably from the corporations who would be making an assload of money, but that's just my guess. Could just be a tacked on sales tax. I don't know.

>From productive people.
Well if you want to call robots people go right ahead.

>Why create a system that strongly disincentives production if you know it is necessary for survival?
The better question is why create robots if it disincentives work?

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>>133040673
Retraining programs and mass conscription is the only efficient and non-degenerate option.

No they will simply put their plans into action to severely rrduce the worlds populaition.

If they could produce everything they need without average joe, why would they pay said Joe to sit on his Ass? Lol no they will kill everyone because it would just be deadweight.

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>>133055611
>You can decide to act in "rational self-interest" all you like but that doesn't mean it's going to happen. For example, it's not in my "rational self-interest" for the state to take half of my income and distribute it to any number of leeches who decide they don't want to work because they don't enjoy it.
Forgetting we're talking about the fact people are losing their jobs and not quitting them to become leeches are we?

>This sort of behavior is called r-selection and it is cancer to civilization. Resources aren't free and you aren't entitled to them unless you're willing to work to get them.
Okay sure but I'm not denying this at all.

>No one cares what you enjoy doing. Again, your ancestors didn't enjoy hunting megafauna or picking rotten berries or tilling a field or any other activity they undertook to survive. You aren't special.
But I do enjoy what I'm doing and you actually don't know what you're talking about. Who's are you to say someone doesn't enjoy picking berries?

How am I saying I'm special exactly? Nowhere did I say everyone flipping burgers doesn't like it, I'm saying nobody has to like it.

>What exactly do you plan on teaching your kids? How to cash a government check in the mail?
Maybe survival skills and mathematical? What's it to you?

>Hopefully you'll be teaching them how to avoid rape gangs and what rotting foods in dumpsters are and are not safe for consumption, because that's what they'll be doing when your scheme to get something for nothing inevitably bankrupts the state.
Since when has automation become "my scheme?"

Have you even been paying attention? This thread started because I have concerns about the future of automation, but you're still just strawmanning my position into me being commie leach despite me saying I would continue my work as a journalist.

Your reply to that was a tumblr-esque "ugh..."
You're seriously not even trying anymore.

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>>133040673
>OH GOD PASTA MAKER ARE OUT OF BUSINESS NOW OH GOD OH NOO WHAT WILL THEY DO

People has been doomsaying about automation for literally 100 years.

>>133040931
Ever heard of collusion?

>>133057294
Yeah because it has some potentially serious outcomes. Regardless of the outcomes pre-automation and post-automation worlds are going to be drastically different, there's absolutely no denying that.

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>>133057396
Ever heard of the Prisoner's Dilemma?

>>133056160
>That doesn't make any sense. He still puts in the same hours
So? Hours are totally irrelevant. If I spend hours making a piece of shit, it's still a piece of shit.

>also necessary for millions of unemployable retards to not die in the streets due to starvation.
Why? Not to sound too crass but people die all the time. Who gives a fuck?

>Probably from the corporations
So from people? Got it. And just so you don't go off on some retarded tirade about the legal concept of corporate personhood let me clarify: that's not what I'm referring to. A corporation has owners. When you take from a corporation ultimately you are taking from the owners, so you haven't addressed my point in the slightest. UBI comes from productive people.

>why create robots if it disincentives work?
Because they don't. Mechanization doesn't dis-incentivize work any more than the tractor did at the turn of the last century.

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>>133040673
>What exactly is going to happen after automation becomes the norm for industries?


See pic.

My bet is a mysterious virus.

there will be a corporate sponsored marxist revolution in western countries as they collapse into debt and lawlessness, where universal basic income or something like it is attempted to stop the proles from killing the owners. slowly but surely the ubi will be reduced until the prole population is manageable and powerless to revolt.

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high paid comfy programmer jobs

>>133057085

>Forgetting we're talking about the fact people are losing their jobs and not quitting them to become leeches are we?

Involuntary leeches are still leeches. Of course the West has a pretty robust welfare system as it is and it's clearly not had an effect on the workforce. DAMN MACHINES

>Okay sure but I'm not denying this at all.

Of course you are. You expect the government to provide you with money for breathing, presumably the funds just materialize out of the ether or you rely on your deus ex machina to explain it away.

>But I do enjoy what I'm doing and you actually don't know what you're talking about. Who's are you to say someone doesn't enjoy picking berries?

>How am I saying I'm special exactly? Nowhere did I say everyone flipping burgers doesn't like it, I'm saying nobody has to like it.

Again, no one cares what you do and do not like.

>Since when has automation become "my scheme?"

>Have you even been paying attention? This thread started because I have concerns about the future of automation, but you're still just strawmanning my position into me being commie leach despite me saying I would continue my work as a journalist.

You don't give a shit about automation, all you care about is how you can explain away your scheme to get free resources with minimal conflict. You have no idea what the job market will look like in a century, much less a decade, no one does. Every technological advancement in human history to date has not led to mass unemployment, yet you think this one will be different for no other reason than to masturbate over your free resources fantasy.

>Your reply to that was a tumblr-esque "ugh..."

Sorry, I meant, LOL a "journalist". Here's 10 Reasons Why You're An Asshole! #7 Will Make You Question the Existence of God!

>>133057047

zika was a test run

>>133058006
>So? Hours are totally irrelevant. If I spend hours making a piece of shit, it's still a piece of shit.
Exactly my point.

>Why? Not to sound too crass but people die all the time. Who gives a fuck?
People with morality I suppose. You're living in a fantasy land if you think people are going to allow mass starvation in the West if something can be done about it.

>So from people? Got it.
People not running the machines. The owners aren't the workers in this case, they own the workers which I suppose would be robot technicians.

>UBI comes from productive people.
Who is the productive person, the owners or the technician?

>Because they don't. Mechanization doesn't dis-incentivize work any more than the tractor did at the turn of the last century.
The tractor made it so you didn't have to hire 20 people to dig the same amount of dirt it would take for a tractor to do in the same amount of time.

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>>133058141
Gray Death?

>>133058349
>Involuntary leeches are still leeches.
:^) whatever you say Mr. Goldberg.

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>>133057456
>post-automation

We already are post automation. Virtually everything you see on a store self is made on an automated assembly line. That's why it's so stupid to keep hearing people say there won't be jobs when automation happens like it hasn't already happened decades ago.

>>133058516
>We already are post automation
We're in the middle of automation, it's only going to soar and soar.

>>133049227
Only because the prices are lower than everyone else's. They already cost very little

>>133058489

>:^) whatever you say Mr. Goldberg.

I tell you what, once you get laid off you can round up ten of your buddies and see if the fact that you all were involuntarily terminated magically puts food on the table. "It's not working, guys! Someone here must have quit instead!"

We will move to a alternative cash society. Crypto and video game currency will be valued. And jobs will move to the virtual space. You'll be a cog in a virtual office and work just the same way.

>>133058407
Nah, probably an engineered strain of flu hybrid.

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>>133040673
Genocide.

>>133058397
>Exactly my point.
Okay, so we are in agreement. Value is determined by what others are willing to pay for something. This runs directly counter to your post above >>133052345 though. Might want to get your stories straight.

>People with morality I suppose.
What is moral about stealing the productive outputs of others? If there actually were some sort of famine people would probably give charitably, which is their right, but it's certainly not your right to demand they feed you if they don't want to.

>Who is the productive person, the owners or the technician?
Both

>The tractor made it so you didn't have to hire 20 people to dig the same amount of dirt it would take for a tractor to do in the same amount of time.
Tractors meant that you could accomplish the same feats with less human labor as an input, agreed. That's not the same as dis-incentivizing work.

>>133058516
>We already are post automation
No, we havent hit that until we've developed AI smart enough to program. Once we've hit that its the event horizon

>>133059175
>No, we havent hit that until we've developed AI smart enough to program

Once we get to that point there will be even more sophisticated tasks that only people will be able to do, kind of like how there were no coders in the 60s outside of the small handful that were developing the early computers and loading code with punchcards.

>>133047998
ever hear of agenda 21? The ultimate goal of the elite is to move the citizenry of the land in the name of "environmental sustainability" and put us into mega cities. It will all fall into place once they achieve their "socialist utopia", a requirement for UBI will be sterilization and/or moving into mega cities.

>>133040673
Supply and demand and basic competition dim wit.

>>133059077
Nowhere did I say value is objective but go ahead a keep on with that strawman.

>What is moral about stealing the productive outputs of others? If there actually were some sort of famine people would probably give charitably, which is their right, but it's certainly not your right to demand they feed you if they don't want to.
Where did I say it's my right to demand money? I'm just saying you something needs to happen unless you want millions of emaciated corpses littering the streets.

But by that time we'll have automated robots picking up the dead bodies so people like you can ignore your countrymen dying. Hey, it's not you right?

Production is physically manufacturing something with raw materials. The owner isn't a producer, he's the facilitator of production. Now before you stawman again, that does not imply he doesn't deserve out output of what he's earned.

>Tractors meant that you could accomplish the same feats with less human labor as an input, agreed. That's not the same as dis-incentivizing work.

No since they were capable of getting other jobs. Industry and automation is moving too fast for these people to get news jobs somewhere else. They're just going to be taken over by robots again until they're stuck with no options.

I don't know when, but it will happen. Most people can't work with their brains, they have to work with their hands. Unfortunate but that's reality, I just don't want these people to die because of it. Guess that makes me a fag.

>>133059731
Except there are multiple fields where separate companies covertly work hand in hand to set prices and kill competition between one another.

Nobody wants to race to zero.

>>133059517
>Once we get to that point there will be even more sophisticated tasks that only people will be able to do

You're basing this on unknowable data. Sure there will be options, but you don't know what options and how many opportunities.

>>133059805
>Nowhere did I say value is objective
Right, because we are (apparently) in agreement. Value is incredibly SUBJECTIVE. Again, you seem very confused about what your argument even is, which is strongly detracting from your persuasiveness. Work on that.

>I'm just saying you something needs to happen
And what is this "something?" You have been arguing in favor of UBI for this whole thread so I assume you are an advocate for the system. If so, then you are an advocate of theft from productive people to support your life as a leach. So far, you haven't been able to provide any justification for your thievery. If you are actually not a supporter of UBI then I apologize but that seems to be your position as best I can tell.

>Production is physically manufacturing something with raw materials.
Does that mean that doctors are not productive? After all, they do not produce a physical good. Your narrow and inaccurate definition of production does not justify theft from productive people.

>>133060048
neither do you, as it is this level of automation will take almost a century to complete, given the problems facing current technology. By then who knows if we won't be nuked by china, haji's or some other such problem.

>>133044012

They hire tons of workers because they don't want to provide full time benefits, also most workers are extremely unreliable. Restaurant work is the lowest common denominator in terms of workers quality.

>>133060613

>neither do you, as it is this level of automation will take almost a century to complete, given the problems facing current technology.

The irony here is that anyone who fears job displacement has more than enough time to secure the means of their own survival, e.g., arable land, shelter, etc.

Instead, they spend their time advocating for UBI or other ways to get free resources, under the assumption that this problem, insofar that it actually is or will be a problem, is the government's to solve, not theirs.

That should tell you everything you need to know about the people who bring up this subject. It has nothing to do with the ramifications on society and everything to do with them getting theirs from productive people.

That's why it's time to crash this civilization. The r-strategists need to either learn to take care of themselves, or die. The only way to do that is to cut off their life support by allowing the nanny state to bankrupt itself.

>>133060516
>Right, because we are (apparently) in agreement. Value is incredibly SUBJECTIVE.
Again, nowhere did I suggest value is objective. You seem confused and it wouldn't be the first time you were confused or misrepresent my position.

>And what is this "something?"
Either you let people die or you give people money so they don't. Those are the two options. I favour the one where my neighbours and my family members don't have to die for obvious reasons should automation take such a turn that effective destroys millions of jobs in a matter of a couple of decades.

Time is key, and given our record of technological advancement within the last century I'm not inclined to believe we're not going to be saturating the job market with other jobs for the knuckle draggers to do at the same rate in which said knuckle draggers are losing them.

>Does that mean that doctors are not productive?
No, they just do a job that a robot can't do yet. Let's not forget AI is also going to completely wipe out millions of jobs as well. Driving for one, which is one of the most worked jobs in America, if not THE MOST.

Robots can however stack newspapers and put them in boxes, and some people still work that job, and let me tell you these people are not going to be computer techs.

>>133060048
>but you don't know what options and how many opportunities

That's exactly my point, that's precisely why I'm saying it's stupid to assume automation is going to get rid of all the jobs.

>>133040673

>Post-automation
Do the math: Should I pay an error-prone human being $30k/yr to screw a plate onto a box, or $100k up front to have a robot installed and programmed to do the same for less than $1k/yr maintenance afterward?

>Basic income
Cool. We'll all know exactly how much everyone will be making. I'll go meet with my friends in the same industry and others related to figure out how we can milk this for all its worth.

> Price hikes
Price fixing. See the above point.

> Rent hikes.
Already happening. Not entirely related to income, but willingness of people to pay high rent, as well as un-willingness of businesses to move into less-expensive areas (very, very high up-front costs).

> More expensive drugs.
Don't get addicted to brain-melting poison. That simple.

unregulated capitalism is the cure

>>133059702
Why is it that you know this super secret plan?

>>133061713
Manual labourers can only work manual labour related jobs, most of which automation can and will take over.

>>133057733
>>133057733
>the Prisoner's Dilemma
Are you seriously fucking insinuating that the prisoners dilema is relevant at all?

By your reasoning an idea that goes by the assumption that the rivalry parties are not communicating invalidates the idea that two companies that can sit down at a table together for any amount of time they want to will not come to some agreement to get the most out of their monopoly, and a monopoly they would have because of the overbearing power of government.
This happens -now- because governments enact laws "for safety of the consumer" that only benifit large corporations by restricting competition. but it wont happen in the future because of the "free market" that we will have when production is subsidized by the government.
>muh prisoners dilema

Un-fucking-believable.

>>133062278

>Manual labourers can only work manual labour related jobs, most of which automation can and will take over.

Just like horse-drawn machinery took them over, and industrial processes, and mechanical harvesting equipment, and steam-powered tools, and...

you can have any system of government you want
as long as you hold the machinegun and have all the bombs

>>133040673
>What exactly is going to happen after automation becomes the norm for industries?
Every time I read a question like this, I know I'm reading the post of a retard who understands nothing about technology. The jobs being replaced by machines are the jobs done by mindless niggers and other retards who have such menial tasks that a machine can do them. Get a fucking actual useful skill and machines won't be a threat to you. They are a threat to the useless cashiers at McDonald's and the chinks who mindlessly stuff chips into the same place in circuit boards.

I really don't gave a fuck if the useless, mostly nonwhite, left-voting retards all starve to death because a machine can do their job. In fact, I'm strongly in support of this.

>>133062799
All of the things you just listed literally took centuries in between, wheres automation of low-skilled manual labour requires someone to say "Let's automate this" and order some robots online and have them Amazon delivered in a driverless car.

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>>133063118
>Every time I read a question like this, I know I'm reading the post of a retard who understands nothing about technology. The jobs being replaced by machines are the jobs done by mindless niggers and other retards who have such menial tasks that a machine can do them. Get a fucking actual useful skill and machines won't be a threat to you.

Call me a retard and you're expecting niggers and dumb asses to get useful skills within decades. Who's the retard now huh?

>>133063125

>it'll be different this time guys

So you think everyone else hasn't caught on to the fact that this one innovation just happens to come at a time when you're around to shill for UBI?

>>133063469
It will be different this time, technological advancement grows exponentially.

>>133061920
agenda 21 is sold as voluntary agenda 30 is not, and who said it was secret? The leftists are dumb enough to actively deny reality on a daily basis. So what if the NWO is in full view, that is just how much the wool has been pulled over the world's collective eyes.