Why did Russia cuck itself by allowing the Soviet Union to collapse?

Because no one wanted to live equally poor. Economic model was unsustainable. Hyper collectivism does not work long term. End

>>133011828
It should not have given its energy rich states. Then again, they're full of non whites.

>>133011828
>>133012851
How were the boarders drawn after collapse?

Was a historic national decision or did (((NATO))) have their hands in it?

>>133013694
The borders were already drawn. It was a union of nations. Hence the Union in USSR.

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Betrayal of communists elite of the Interests of russia

>>133011828
Beause the Soviet Union is not Russia.

>>133015870
Yes it was lmao retard

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>>133011828
Russia cucked itself by allowing the Soviet Union to happen.

>>133016268
this

>>133013694
> this burger education
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republics_of_the_Soviet_Union

Germany cucked the planet by supporting the bolsheviks to get Russia out of WW1.

>>133016453
>being such a non-country that you are called "borderlands" (of Russia)

>>133016084
It wasn't you nigger. The Soviet Union was a borderless union made out of soviet republics. Russia was a soviet repulbic like Ukraine, Moldova, Kazakhstan, etc.

>>133011828
Because vomusim is a cancer that kills countries. Communists must die

> How were the boarders drawn after collapse?
Obviously according to interstate borders within the Soviet Union.

>>133016338
>>133016268
This was due to the fault of the mentally retarded tsar.

>>133011828
They didn't allow it to collapse. The CIA forced it to collapse. They rigged the 1994 elections to make Yeltsin win even though the communist party was way more successful.

>>133016603
Of Poland actually. Russians called it Little Russia.

>>133016338
>>133016268
There is a reason why so many Russians hold high admiration for leaders like Stalin and Lenin but have an almost unanimous distaste for Gorbachev and Tsar Nicolas. While the leadership of the Soviet Union built Russia as a global superpower Gorbachev and the last Tsar both abdicated their own power and brought Russia defeat and hardship.

Basically the reason Soviet Union came to be in the first place was that countries in the west supported left-wing version of ISIS to weaken the Russian Empire. The monstrocity that resulted was unsustainable since the country was incapable of providing its population with bread (USSR bought grain in Canada! Modern RF with all its oligarchs and crazy-ass corruption is a grain exporter) and fucking toilet paper.
After a time, the soviet elites decided to secede and the central government could do nothing, since it was heavily in debt and could not afford a Yugoslavia-style civil war.

Lesson: fuck communism, fuck marxism and fuck central planing.

>>133011828
Because they had no idea Charlie Wilson was funding some goat herders to destroy their army and they were like fuck this I ain't doin' no god damn Vietnam

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>>133012682
The state capitalism reformed by Brezhnev ruined the country.

> There is a reason why so many Russians hold high admiration for leaders like Stalin and Lenin but have an almost unanimous distaste for Gorbachev and Tsar Nicolas

Gorbatchov yes, Nicholas - not exactly true, Lenin is not viewed in high regard. Stalin is viewed in high regard because many people believe that if any other leader was ruling the USSR Germany would win WW2 and all Russians would be sent to concentration camps. With that kind of messaging it is easy for leftards to justify shit like collectivisation and mass deportations. "10 million people had to die so that we would have enough tanks to that every single Russian would not be genocided by Hitler". Literally that.

>>133017722
>left-wing version of ISIS
Yes because Marxism-Leninism has so much in common with salafist jihadism

>>133017929
Wrong. Planned economics ruined the Soviet Union.

One needs only look at how the railroad was managed to see this. Production quotas from factories resulted in high productivity, but the resources were unneeded and unused. Trains were sent on pointless circular journeys to haul goods like iron and coal through siberia, dump it into a pile, and then go back and get some more. Very productive, very inefficient.

>>133017722
> Basically the reason Soviet Union came to be in the first place was that countries in the west supported left-wing version of ISIS to weaken the Russian Empire.
actually Tsarist Russia was weak as a pussy.
But then the "evul gomunists" built a superpower.

>>133018108
http://www.levada.ru/2017/06/26/vydayushhiesya-lyudi/

Lenin is fourth meanwhile Nicholas scored below 6%

>>133011828
Because we are naive, stupid people who learn only after experiencing very painful mistakes.

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>>133018315
The fact that the USSR managed to turn from a feudal agrarian empire into a industrialized empire in several years that helped them defend against the Nazis is a testament to the system.

>>133018320
The thing about Tsarist Russia was that the Romanovs were complete degenerates. Partook in degenerate activists like attending homofag bars, bled the country dry in several dumb attempts at relevance and overall kept Russia in the feudal age.

Of course nu-/pol/ will defend this degeneracy because hey MAH FWEE MAWKETS.

>>133018315
>My unsourced strawman of central planning is why the soviet union failed
fucking burgers

> Yes because Marxism-Leninism has so much in common with salafist jihadism

When it comes to the number of people genocided, ISIS are pussies compared to Tuchachevski, Frunze and Lenin, let alone Stalin.

>>133018320
>But then the "evul gomunists" built a superpower.
...that failed miserably and was on the verge to become greatest wasteland, but group of nationalists took over and it's now slowly becoming strong and respected.


ftfy

>>133016268
the monarchy was the scum on earth, good thing they all get shoot, kids included

>>133018734
Okay, if short term gains for long term losses are your thing, sure! Choose communism.

>>133018734
who drew this and why did he fuck up so badly

>>133017667
Russians only like Stalin because he managed to defeat Hitler (who killed 3,000,000 Russians so he was a big threat to the average Soviet citizen).

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>>133018791
>"SOVIET STRONK!"
>provides no sources
>"Here's why the USSR collapsed."
>"WHERE ARE YOUR SOURCES????"

This isn't a university, and you are not a professor.

>>133018829
Communists in the USSR were nationalists. They destroyed the fag degeneracy of the old Tsarist system. Sure briefly under Lenin you had a period of anti-Church, anti-social conservative tendencies, but this quickly subsided. It wasn't even Stalin that changed the course. Lenin realised it was a mistake and rolled back. Stalin just continued his work.

>>133018845
Actually the height of the Soviet military came in the 1970s and 80s. Like I said the long term gains were unrealized because of the adoption of State capitalism later on that crashed the country.

> http://www.levada.ru/2017/06/26/vydayushhiesya-lyudi/

That poll was about "greatest people", some would interpret that question as "most famous Russians" or "most prominent Russians", which is why Pushkin is third. More correct polling would be to ask which historic personality did the most good for the country.
From personal experience talking to various Russians even Russian leftards, Lenin is not viewed in high regard. "Lenin destroyed the empire, Stalin brought the empire back", something like that.

>>133018791
It's practically the same reason the Nicaraguan canal failed: over 50% of Chinese centrally-planned ventures fail, like all of those fucking ghost cities that litter the Chinese landscape for the sole reason of being built.

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>>133019217
>state capitalism

Because Stalinist Russia NEVER participated in the global markets. EVER.

>>133018823
Try to find one revolution in which ideological opponents were not killed or oppressed, had the whites won similar repressions would have happened on just a large scale, just because you preform summary executions doesn't make you ISIS.

>>133017667
>There is a reason why so many Russians hold high admiration for leaders like Stalin and Lenin
Yeah, the reason is that they are brainwashed useful idiots that don't know their history. Gorbachev and Nicholas were cucks, true. But USSR is the worst thing that happened to Russia.
>While the leadership of the Soviet Union built Russia as a global superpower
No, they've built a technological and industrial colony for their foreign masters, who helped them take over Russia in the first place. And Russians payed with millions of lives for this. When USSR served its purpose they've just shut it down.

> actually Tsarist Russia was weak as a pussy. But then the "evul gomunists" built a superpower.

Tsarist Russia could feed itself, USSR got into debt buying grain in Canada. That makes all the talk of nuclear missiles and the space program irrelevant.

>>133018734
So did the US, we didn't need gulags to do it though. There is nothing that the USSR did that can be justified. It was an evil leadership through and through. The best thing that happened to it was that it died. Nothing crushed the left as much as watching their idol die its ignoble death.

>>133019543
I wouldn't say that they're 'brainwashed' for liking Stalin and Lenin, because those leaders brought the country out of hard times (even if maybe they helped cause them).

It's little different than why FDR is well liked by Liberals.

>>133019582
>USSR got into debt buying grain in Canada
It inherited the debt from Tsarist Russia dumbass, because the Romanovs drove the country into the ground and not only was this just after a World War (which the Romanovs lost because they didn't modernize the Army and instead spent all the money on gay orgies)

>>133019209
>briefly under Lenin you had a period of anti-Church, anti-social conservative tendencies, but this quickly subsided.

N millions of death

>breafly

than, experiments in botany resulting with more than 20 million ukies dead

kek

but at least they tried kek


>nationalists
>jews

pick one

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>>133018829
> burgers tomahawked Assad's airbase
> becoming strong and respected.
> burgers shot down Assad's jet
> becoming strong and respected.
> Far East is sold to the Chinese
> becoming strong and respected.

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>>133019365
>Thinking communism=no trade

>>133019169
I provided the source of the study which polled Russians on greatest historical figure, if you are going to talk about some example of a problem with central planning it would make sense to cite an actual source which mentions said example.

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>>133019827
No, communism with trade = state capitalism. Isn't that your argument?

>>133019789
And yet Stalin was still voted in as the most loved and respected Russian.

>nationalists
>jews

>pick one

A completely simplistic view of history. Pretty sure you're a burger.

>>133019811
ok you live there so tell me, what do you want? Yeltsin-style democracy? Back to communist shit where you all dreamed about fucking macdonalds for 50 years?

what do you want? and how are you going to achieve it?

> Like I said the long term gains were unrealized because of the adoption of State capitalism later on that crashed the country.

USSR had no state capitalism, there was a single building in Moscow (Gosplan) that gave quotas to all factories all over the country based on stupid marxist theories. No market mechanisms led to the situation where factories had no reason to make decent products since there was no competition and wheat was rotting in the fields since state-owned farms did not care enough to gather the crops.
Again, USSR bought grain in Canada! Superpowers don't rely on Canadian wheat bought by dollars made from selling oil. Even Russia has a more decent economic system than that crap.

>>133019689
>So did the US
The US had massive exploitation and workers rights issues and it took many decades leaving the country in a great depression.

>>133018837
And kulaks deserved it too, right? Seriously kys, you commies scum.
I really hope I'll see the day when the kike mummy will be removed from the Red Square.
But seeing all these brainwashed commies among my fellow Russians is making me pessimistic about it.

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>>133019308
https://www.rferl.org/a/russia-lenin-positive-role-levada-poll/28441045.html
oof

First reason was a productional crisis. In soviet union there were *norms* of goods for the year. For example 1 billion rolls of toilet paper, 100 million toothbrushes etc etc, 10k cars. Who was left without goods can went fuck himself and waited in a queue. When crisis came to food people got mad. When Gorbachev ban alcohol people got very angry. Everybody hate communism, everybody.
Second reason was a nationalism in Ukraine, Kazahstan, Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan, Armenia, Georgia, Lithuania, Estonia. Nobody like russians in these republics today and then.

>>133020331
>unironically defending the degeneracy of the Romanov family

>>133011828
The USSR is probably the first empire in history where the ones supposedly running the show were the earliest and most vocal proponents of pulling out. It just goes to show you that the Russians never really ran the Soviet Union. The bolsheviks were Jews, Stalin was a Georgian, and Khrushchev was Ukrainian.

>>133020154
underrated post

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>>133019903
Keep crying, Sovietaboo.

> It inherited the debt from Tsarist Russia dumbass, because the Romanovs drove the country into the ground and not only was this just after a World War (which the Romanovs lost because they didn't modernize the Army and instead spent all the money on gay orgies)

It did not inherit any debt from the Russian Empire for obvious reason (bolsheviks simply decided we will not pay anything since we are a different country now).
The February revolution was a military coup where "hungry workers and farmers" had nothing to say. World War 1 was lost in many ways because left-wing agitators led to the collapse of the frontline, not because of German military victories or the fact that Russia was unprepared for WW1.

But again for commies out there, all that shit had nothing to do with why USSR bought grain in Canada, the sole reason the country could not feed itself was because the "Kolkhoz" system was retarded as shit and led to crops rotting in the fields.
LOL, there were widespread cases where young scientists and students had to work one day a week sorting rotting potatoes at warehouses! Not a joke!
Did the Czar do that too?

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>>133019903

>>133020741
The UK was and still is ran by Germans, and Stalin purged most jews from the CPSU Politburo.

>>133020848
>Did the Czar do that too?
Yes? He made several half-assed attempts to "fix" the country in an attempt to stay in power, while his brother fucked fags and was renown throughout the Tsarist-supported gay bars throughout Moscow.

>>133020848
i would argue that sponsoring left-wing agitators was german tactical victory

>>133020149
>what do you want?
National-communism
>and how are you going to achieve it?
Nothing happens. Everything is already lost. Our country will be spammed by Muslims, and annexed by China.

>>133017722
>Basically the reason Soviet Union came to be in the first place was that countries in the west supported left-wing version of ISIS to weaken the Russian Empire.

You mean Germany. Britain and France tried to keep the monarchy in power and then supported White generals to try to keep Russia in World War I.

>>133020871
Stalin purged a lot of people.

> Second reason was a nationalism in Ukraine, Kazahstan, Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan, Armenia, Georgia, Lithuania, Estonia. Nobody like russians in these republics today and then.

And now Central Asians wait in mile-long lines for a chance to clean toilets in Moscow for slave wages).

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>the abomination that was known as the Soviet Union fell apart and will never come back

Good fucking riddance.

>>133020848
Kolkhozes were introduced after the hunger of 1929-1931. The state couldn't convince farmers to sell products at the said price, and the shit went down. No famines ever since.

Opponents of Kolhozes marginalized and eventually purged, as tons of dead bodies needed to be avenged somehow.

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>>133020750

>>133021119
red army, pogrom.

>>133011828

They couldnt stop it collapsing, but they could limit the damage to russia itself

>>133021201
Yeah, plenty of which were those or Trotskyists. And you did not want to get fucking Trotsky in power. He would've started a war with the entire world to 'export the revolution' and today Russia would be about the size of Ukraine or Belarus.

>>133018745
Yeah and lenin had 9 rolls royces

> Yes? He made several half-assed attempts to "fix" the country in an attempt to stay in power, while his brother fucked fags and was renown throughout the Tsarist-supported gay bars throughout Moscow.

First of all, its OK to be gay!
Second of all, again, Russian Empire had an economic system where the country could feed itself. USSR had crops rotting in the fields and grain bought in Canada by money lended by Deutsche Bank.
That is different weight categories when it comes to failed states.

> The state couldn't convince farmers to sell products at the said price, and the shit went down. No famines ever since.

Massive famines after the war, grain shortages under Brezhnev. No hunger because, again, Canadian grain bought by dollars from selling oil.

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>>133021319
The American is immunized against all dangers: one may call him a scoundrel, parasite, swindler, profiteer, it all runs off him like water off a raincoat. But call him a Burger and you will be astonished at how he recoils, how injured he is, how he suddenly shrinks back: “W-without fries?!”

>>133011828
Soviet Union was a communist empire and as we all know communism never work.

>>133021480
And? His predecessors had a lot more.

>>133021572
>First of all, its OK to be gay!
It's not.

>>133021119
>all i want is abstract, schizophrenic combination of extremes while doing nothing in fact

no wonder you have such low national self-esteem

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>>133021721

>>133016612
>Union

Lol. It was Russian empire 2: socialist edition. You're retarded if you think russia, Russian culture, Russian language, and Russian nationalism weren't at the forefront of Soviet ideology

>>133011828
>Why did Russia cuck itself by allowing the Soviet Union to collapse?
"Allowing"? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Socialism ALWAYS FUCKING FAILS. There was nothing they could do to stop it.

>>133021201
Stalin murdered many more people than Hitler. Both are unspeakable monsters, but it is important to know that Stalin was a greater demon than Hitler.

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>>133011828
>Why did Russia cuck itself by allowing the Soviet Union to collapse?
Russia cucked itself when tsar didn't kill those farmers marching to capital.
Russia was based during 19th century with rising production rates developing infrastructure,science and other "Western" goods.
Issue was that your average village nigger couldn't understand the importance of inequality and so when genetic trash came to power the whole mega-Russia aka USSR turned to shitter.
Reality is harsh but you can't tell reality to 60 year old kids for whom thinking was replaced by state ideology...

> Russian culture, Russian language, and Russian nationalism

Russian culture is the only reason the Soviet Union survived for 70 whole years without ending up like fucking Cambodia.

>>133022490
>Romanovs
>good

Nope. I'll never defend degenerate fudge packers.

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>>133021764
What do you mean and? Dictatorship of the proletariat and then he goes on to have 9 rolls royces and issues orders like these. Communism is for retards.

>>133020074
Because he defeated Hitler, who killed 3,00,00 Russians and tried to invade Russia and start a genocide campaign there.

>>133022605
why are you so obsessed with homosexuality? are you gay but hiding it?

it's common that people that express such extensive hatred toward something, on unconscious level desire it.

You dream about dicks filling your holes aren't ya?

>>133022776
*3,000,000

>>133022798
I don't like a dick in my ass, but I love to be inside a man's ass. You guys should try it.. its not bad.

>>133022798
>why are you so obsessed with homosexuality? are you gay but hiding it?
>Russian diaspora
>Not gay
they are so passive they can't even leave.

>>133021721
Kek

>>133022798
Nice liberal virtue signalling.

>>133022718
Nothing in Marxism says you can't have fancy cars. Marx speaks against exploitative capitalism.

>>133022605

19th century Romanovs ranged from pretty good (like Alexander I) to "didn't do much so didn't fuck up much" (like Nikolai I). Until Nikolai II they were doing pretty good and Russia was developing only somewhat behind the most advanced countries like Britain.

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>>133011828
We fell for the (((democracy))) and (((capitalism))) memes.

>>133023020
>Marx speaks against exploitative capitalism
Sure, and allowing uneducated masses of cattle to take state control is much better than have someone who controls your average normie.

>>133023205
When a leadership goes too degenerate, it needs to be torn down.

>>133023314
Yeah let's just have orgy-loving degenerates like the Bourbons of Royalist France, yeah? Worked great for conservatism!

>>133022900
no thanks i prefer vagina

>>133023020

unlike this gentleman that defaults tzarist russia to homosexuality as the main reason of it's decline during violent communist revolution, ignoring all the fact bombs against communism presented in this /thread

almost like he is delusional

>>133023020
And how is forcing people to work, taking away their food and hanging them publicly when they complain NOT exploitation?

>>133020331
Yeah the kulaks definitely deserved it. Sorry to burst your bubble but Ukrainians have always been shitheads - supported Nazi occupation, horded resources letting millions starve, and even today you are trying to genocide ethnic Russians in the East. Holodomor was deserved as was the annexation of Crimea, you don't deserve to even exist as a nation.

>>133011828
It was only a matter of time with containment policy, less expansion meant less resource hoarding and less availability to working class hence stagnation following the surplus after ww2. It boomed periodically but only when it was grafting nations to itself and using military industrial complex+resources hoarded when a new nation was collectivised.
This is why containment policy was derived and why the Soviets attempted a breakout, without expansions the economy was doomed to collapse unless they committed to yet another massive purge but once glasnost occurred Soviet populace learned they got Hebrew hoaxed into fucking themselves and started rioting, either the USSR broke up at that point or faced a massive civil war with western interference and nuclear capabilities... Thank god they broke up so sensible as they did.

And thank god for Stalin purging cryptokikes out of sheer paranoia and creating socialism for one state that fast tracked their collapse, masterpiece.

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>>133023524
>communists arent degenerate
kys

> Nothing in Marxism says you can't have fancy cars. Marx speaks against exploitative capitalism

Marxist interpretation which Lenin argued for calls for "state ownership of means of production". In a modern society even your fucking PC can be considered a "means of production". USSR literally arrested grannies which "speculated" by selling snacks next to beer stores!
Having 9 cars may not mean that Lenin is not a marxist, but the fact is that most Soviet leaders were hypocrites living in luxury while the rest of the country was perpetually poor.

>>133023524
>Yeah let's just have orgy-loving degenerates like the Bourbons of Royalist France, yeah?
Are you jealous of someones orgies?
You know that high ranking commie officials did the same, psychopaths don't care about morality they care about power this is why kikes are so successful.

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>>133011828
>economics
>geography
>global political trends
The USSR didn't make it for a variety of overlapping and interdependent reasons both inherent to those nations themselves and the decisions made by political leaders.

>>133023800
>Having 9 cars may not mean that Lenin is not a marxist, but the fact is that most Soviet leaders were hypocrites living in luxury while the rest of the country was perpetually poor.
Polish or eastern German?

>>133018734
You are confusing stalins mega-corpration and brezhnevs planned economy. Don't. Former is what responsible for industrialisation of Russian Empire, latter, for stagnation and poor living standards in USSR, and Perestroika, which was neither and performed by Gorbachev, is responsible for the fall.

Learn history if you wish to argue about it.

> It was only a matter of time with containment policy, less expansion meant less resource hoarding and less availability to working class hence stagnation following the surplus after ww2

Americans like to think that they are the ones that brought the Soviet Union down, since they generally have no idea how fucked up the entire Soviet system was. The country got into debt buying grain in Canada! It was doomed without Reagan and his containment and "Star Wars" psyop or Afghanistan war.

>>133018734
>Choice between unemployment and prostitution
So in the USSR you were either unemployed or a prostitute? Nice grammar commie.

>>133023678
>muh holodomor

Ukraine isn't a country, just like FYROM isn't, but ill bite. The "Ukies" burned the crops and cattle just so the evil commies wouldn't get to them.

>>133023780
It's a Russian thing to kiss someone on the lips. But what would you know about traditionalism?

>>133023816
Where is the proof? If you mean the PRC yeah Chinks are pretty decadent, but even there those caught to be doing it were actually purged a few years back.

> Polish or eastern German?
Russian.

>>133024121

>Anime image board.
>Sensible,educated people
I have bad news for you Ivan...

>>133011828
No clue. Most Russians now agree that the USSR was better. Neoliberal capitalism works for no one.

>>133024260
Why do non Russians meme this? Russia has been becoming further right if anything.

>>133015870
It is

>>133024151
>Where is the proof?
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
>but even there those caught to be doing it were actually purged a few years back.
Those were probably on the black list before chinks don't kill other chinks for vile shit without a deeper reason, they have no morals.

> Ukraine isn't a country, just like FYROM isn't, but ill bite. The "Ukies" burned the crops and cattle just so the evil commies wouldn't get to them.

Dude, that hoax is not even popular on oldschool web1.0 forums of KPRF party. Collectivisation and the starvation of millions of people was not because "evil capitalists would rather burn their crops than sell them" but because the ceized crops were sold to the West at low prices in order to buy factory equipment. That and the obvious fact that Kolkhoz system is retarded and leads to crops rotting in the fields.

>>133024436
>further right if anything.
It is illegal there to even think that being ethnic Russian means anything.
>>133024208
Is it better?
You know living with no bydlos for the most part?

> Most Russians now agree that the USSR was better. Neoliberal capitalism works for no one.

Neoliberal capitalism is fucked up but the country can feed itself and even sell some grain abroad, while central-planning socialism leads to hunger and the country going into debt to buy Canadian grain.
Of course, protectionism and Lee Quan Yew / Park Chung-hee style authoritarian capitalism would be optimal for RF and other developing countries.

>>133023931
USSR didn't make it because Brezhnev's model, which EU in a lighter form is currently trying to mimic for some despicable reason I can't comprehend, resulted in stagnation as it placed Ideology above common sense. That caused social strife, that led to political strife that led to 3 factions colluding, the reformists, the "traditionalists" (Brezhnev loyalists, loyal to his legacy) and nationalists. All 3 were led by spectacularly incompetent man. You can start a dick measuring contest between who of them was more naive, corrupt, or stubborn. But in the end nationalists one and destroyed USSR in their phyrric victory. But that wasn't enough for them they went on to destroy russian economy and sell it off to the oligarchs propped up by the west for pennies. That's when Siloviki, formerly backing traditionalists but having changed since then, took power and restored Russia, to some degree, we still have many problems to deal with, but it's important to place blame, and the gratitude, on the right people.

>>133024242
I know, I know, but having stumbled upon this discussion I couldn't just stand idly by.

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>>133022718

Holy crap, Lenin invented the "100" emoji.

>>133024124
We don't believe were the only ones that brought the Soviets down and nowhere did I state that. What brought the Soviets down was socialism and horrible officials, a number of other factors greatly assisted and containment was central to its collapse were the Soviets successful at grafting another nation they'd have had the resource boom to last another two decades.

>>133025019
Interesting. But you don't think communism actually worked do you?

>>133024151
>>muh holodomor
What about the Tambov rebelion? Communists took the food of the people, executed publicly those who did not comply and when the peasants rebelled the red army killed them using chemical weapons. Defend this faggot.

>>133025263
>communism
Again, you keep using that word...

No leader of USSR ever claimed that they have communist system, not a ONE.

Communism as an ideology has done a lot of good and ill for russia. It would take a lot of time to expleain to someone unfamiliar with the subject, but suffice it to say that what liberalism did for western europe and Japan to elevate peasants into citizens communism did for eastern and China.

If you want I can elaborate, but be more specific in your question.

>>133024585
Take your Nazi shit back. If we were ultra-right, then Russia was reduced to the size of the Moscow region.

> It is illegal there to even think that being ethnic Russian means anything.

Russia still has this fucked up soviet-style internationalist mentality among the ruling elite that multiculturalism is the only way to go. That and the fact that Russia in 2000s tried to integrate itself with cucked European elites that worship multiculturalism and hate any form of nationalism. Combine that with authoritarian tendencies of the ruling elite to ban anything they dont like / jail anyone they dont like and you get the reason why Russian political system is in such a cucked multiculturalist state.
Of course, it is nowhere near Sweden, Germany or Canada, but it is still fucked up.

>>133022718
Wealth inequality of the USSR was 4 to 1 compared to capitalism with Mr. Forbes 10,000 to 1 to the poorest person.

>>133024260
This, capitalism is a cancer, people all around the world are independently coming to this conclusion from the overworked miserable salary workers in Japan, to the exploited third worlders, to the impoverished eastern euros. The G20 anti-capitalist riots shows people have had enough.

> That's when Siloviki, formerly backing traditionalists but having changed since then, took power and restored Russia, to some degree, we still have many problems to deal with

Given the fact that Yeltsin brought in Putin in exchange for guarantees to Yentsins family and the oligarchs, while the Siloviki were the Luzhkov-Primakov block, this entire story is like Alien vs Predator. Whichever of the corrupt oligarchic elites would have won, the Russian people would lose.

>>133025506
I literally can't because no regime is wholly good or wholly evil. The USSR did plenty of bad shit, and I can't defend everything they did, nor am I going to. So no, I'll never say the USSR were saints and >>133025019 explained its management problems fairly well. However I still prefer it over the current bullshit we have today. Decadence, women going out to be whores, and so on.

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>>133011828
>allowing
Like they had a fucking choice.

>>133025584
You don't think state collectivism worked do you? Oh, and how many people did Mao starve to death?

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>>133011828
>Why did Russia cuck itself by allowing the Soviet Union to collapse?
Gorbachov was a globalist who handed the reins of the Soviet Union to the IMF and the World Bank in exchange for a Nobel Peace Prize.

Yes, the economy was stagnating, that's no reason for a country to roll over and give up all its territory. Just look at North Korea, still standing.

The Soviet "collapse" was looting engineered from above. The Central Bank reserves dissapeared overnight. Critics of the Bildelbergs and the Trilateral Commission like US Representative Jerry McDonald were murdered.

It was all an organized looting by the Jews and the reason the Russians still despise the West today.

https://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/865
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_McDonald
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIMACO

>"[T]he drive of the Rockefellers and their allies is to create a one-world government, combining super-capitalism and Communism under the same tent, all under their control ... Do I mean conspiracy? Yes I do. I am convinced there is such a plot, international in scope, generations old in planning, and incredibly evil in intent."
>-- US Representative Larry McDonald, murdered by the Soviet Union

>>133026212
>Jerry McDonald
*Larry McDonald, my bad

> from the overworked miserable salary workers in Japan, to the exploited third worlders

Japanese corporate culture is a really, really special case in the special olympics of fucked up work ethics. I believe the solution is not socialism with its central planning but simply implementing basic social democratic norms of protecting workers rights and ensuring healthcare and minimum wage, without having any of this communist bullshit.

>>133025616
>Russia still has this fucked up soviet-style
Not at all, siloviki by virtue of their origin and education are radical pragmatists. Multi-culturalism is highly inefficient and I challenge you to find a region of russia where russian cultural values are not being promoted.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCAikZYee8E

Here, have a listen.

>>133025983
>You don't think state collectivism worked do you?

It did good things, it did bad things, it did downright retarded things, liberalism is no different, it just has longer history.

>Oh, and how many people did Mao starve to death?
And how many did the CPP bring out of poverty? How many Russians were saved from hitlers genocide by Stalin?

This is a complex question, stop looking for an easy answer.

>>133025960
North Korea has an economy 1000 times worse than the Soviet Union ever did and it's still standing.

>>133024128
Gorbachev destroyed USSR and gave her that choice, you moran.

> Gorbachov was a globalist who handed the reins of the Soviet Union to the IMF and the World Bank in exchange for a Nobel Peace Prize.

I addressed it before, he did that not because he wanted the Nobel Peace Prize but because the country badly needed credits to buy Canadian wheat when the oil prices dropped. There was really no other choice than sell the country over to the (((globalists))).

>>133025930
Why dont you go live in North Korea, its not perfect but it does oppose the the "bullshit we have today"?

>>133026596
Because I'd get shot at the border for trying to get in. They actually defend their border, you see.

>>133026430
Yeah, but their people are either too brainwashed or malnourished to do shit about it.

It wasn't Americans or Brits who tore down the Berlin Wall.

>>133026596
>>133026702
And to add onto that, North Korea is hardly all bad. It's bad economically because it lost its chief supporter (the USSR) and PRC isn't that good of a replacement. Meanwhile South Korea is thriving because the US corporations funding it are still around.

>>133026702
Are you retarded? Tourists go there every year on holidays. If he really is a communist, I would like to imagine that they would welcome him with open arms.

>>133026414
>stop looking for an easy answer.
Yeah. Your posts read like you're still stuck in the dorm room intellectually. How many people did liberal capitalism pull out of poverty without mass starvation and political purges? Whenever in doubt, look to reality. Reality on reality's own terms. Reality is a testament to the truth and the truth is that "communism" or whatever we choose to call it simply didn't work and in fact murdered hundreds of millions of people.

>>133011828
Russians rulers ruined it, it was better of under our control. Russians are only fit to be slaves, not rulers.

> Multi-culturalism is highly inefficient and I challenge you to find a region of russia where russian cultural values are not being promoted.

OK, multiculturalism is not efficient, US-stle melting pot is. As for the regions where Russian culture is not promoted, lets start:
- Bashkiria
- Tatarstan (half population Russian, non-Russian ruling elites)
- Tuva with huge "white flight" of Russian population
- Chechnya, obvious example
- Dagestan which had a sizeable Russian minority years ago
- Stavropol which has replacement-levels of migration from neighboring muslim regions
- Even Crimea after reunification has the state promoting Tartar culture and Tartar political figures at the expense of the Russian majority.

Soviet bureaucrats are not doing anywhere near a good job defending Russian interests.

>>133026546
Be more specific. How he destroyed ussr? Gave freedom to people? What your alternative maybe force republics to stay? Retard.

>>133026942
North Korea removed every mention of communism from its constitution. If you actually studied it, you'd note that its more similar to Imperial Japan in ideology than the USSR. And yeah immigration's around, though only at certain restricted areas, and no they wouldn't welcome me with open arms because i'm not Korean. Would probably get shot for being a NATO spy.

> It's bad economically because it lost its chief supporter (the USSR) and PRC isn't that good of a replacement.

Did you know that after the civil war North Korea was the wealthier Korea because all the industry was concentrated in the North?

>>133013694
Wow, you're retarded.

Read a book, dude.

>>133027135
I'm just explaining what the image is trying to say in relation to his post, go back to farming potatoes.

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>>133026554
>the country badly needed credits to buy Canadian wheat when the oil prices dropped. There was really no other choice than sell the country over to the (((globalists))).
Yeah right, then the US kept giving money to Yeltsin and allowed him to steal the elections through fraud while he destroyed Russia.

http://content.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2107565,00.html
http://www.globalresearch.ca/us-meddling-in-1996-russian-elections-in-support-of-boris-yeltsin/5568288

No American concerns about "Russian democracy" back then.

>>133026716
>It wasn't Americans or Brits who tore down the Berlin Wall.
Nice meme.

By the time the Berlin Wall was torn up, the guards had been given orders not to shoot, people were allowed to cross freely, and Russia had announced its troops were leaving East Germany. The government was dissolving itself.

It wasn't some "popular uprising defying authority", the East German government had rolled over and dissappeared by then.

>>133027241
And it was still the wealthier Korea by the 1980s. It went to shit because its chief supporter fell. South Korea was a latin america tier military dictatorship for most of the Cold War.

>>133026430
Also, North Korea is relatively small and can depend on gibsmedats from China or extorted shit from other countries. The Soviet Union was too big not to fail. It's an apples-to-oranges comparison and you're being stupid for making it.

>>133026554
They had a vision of united non-aligned with the US Europe and wanted to be part of that upcoming elite, then got refused. Yeltsin would have become just as stubborn as Putin by now.

Yeltsin was a good lapdog in 1992 and started to express protests over the planned enlargement of NATO in the end of 1994. In 1995 The New York Times already wanted another candidate to be the President, because Yeltsin was to patriotic. He did not like what was going on in Yugoslavia, invaded in Chechnya, etc.

> Because I'd get shot at the border for trying to get in. They actually defend their border, you see.

There are far better examples of countries that defend their borders. Hungary, Poland, South Korea, Japan. Just because some european leaders are mentally retarded does not mean capitalist system is at fault.

>>133011828
Gorby wanted to do a China story with Russia (economic capitalism/political communism)

But he fucked it up and accidentally the whole Soviet Union in the process.

>>133021572
>Russian Empire had an economic system where the country could feed itself
Say that to multiple famines the victims of which aren't even counted because nobody cares and all countless peasant rebellions.

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>>133019217
The measurement of a nations success isn't in it's military prowess rather it's socio-economic quality.

T. American whose quality of life is at expense of military budget

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>>133011828
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korenizatsiya

Multi-fucking-culturalism

What the fuck do you think happened?

>>133026596
>Why dont you go live in North Korea, its not perfect but it does oppose the the "bullshit we have today"?
Well one reason not to do it is because USSR and DPRK are very different nations with very different cultural norms and very different implementations of communist ideology. Say what you will about inefficiencies of the soviet union, but to compare it to DPRK is laughable. It sent first man into space for fucks sake, you can't do that by pointing a gun to someone's head, no matter how hard you try.

Another is the fact that DPRK never learned anything because dprk elites are an oligarchy not aristocracy, they are more concerned with their own self being than they are with future of their nation. If you want to send socialists somewhere to learn from, send them to China, that's a nation that looked at communism and instead of trying to make it work trough force for ideology's sake, they are focused on making it work for the best interests of their nation. Implemented in china modern statism, where both state and market captitalism coexists with state making sure that market one doesn't abuse the population or usurp the politics and market making sure state doesn't become stagnant and close minded, is a brilliant marrige of both the best capitalism and communism have to offer.

>>133026983
>mass starvation
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_major_famines_in_India_during_British_rule

>political purges
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Years%27_War

Longer history mate. Stop cherry picking or I'll start linking your great successes in screwing up nations and condemning thousands to death, starvation and political repressions within this decade.

>>133027632
Citation needed, because shortages were more common in the Soviet Union than the Russian empire, well into the cold war-but they just imported so it was cool

>>133016603
Go to Ukraine and say that historian. Test your bravery!

>>133026831
Oh no, so you dont want to live there because you would be miserable. >>133027195
What about the other countries like China, Vietnam or Cuba?

> Yeah right, then the US kept giving money to Yeltsin and allowed him to steal the elections through fraud while he destroyed Russia.

American interference in Russian elections in 1996 is one topic many Americans do not want to talk about.
But still, the country needed financial aid in order not to starve, Yeltsin needed money to avoid strikes and hunger that could get his political opponent elected, which is why all state-owned property was sold to anyone willing to buy it. Namely, the mafia and various small-time crooks we now know as the oligarchs.
I can not say whether there were any other choices at that time other than to beg the west for credits.

>>133027938
>China, Vietnam or Cuba
Sure, those are actual arguments. Would go and live there 2bh.

> It went to shit because its chief supporter fell

You wanted to say that it went to shit because it relied on foreign aid from the beginning?

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>>133027642
wrong.

the success of a nation is its ability to survive intact into the next generation.

>>133027767
>t. retard who doesn't know about russification during stalin

Have you even considered why the Baltics and the Central Asian countries had/still have large Russian populations?

> Sure, those are actual arguments. Would go and live there 2bh.

China is hardcore Thatcher-style capitalism with nonexistent social-security system and Japanese-style corporate work ethics. Vietnam is a lite version of that. What do these countries have to do with soviet-style communism?

>>133028126
As does South Korea. As did and does most of Europe. You know what the Marshall Plan was, right? It was the economic domination of the US forced onto several European countries.

>>133027900
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_famine_of_1891%E2%80%9392
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Зeмeльный_вoпpoc_в_Poccии_в_1917_гoдy

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>>133028101
top kek. say my couch nazi warrior. when will USA unfreeze the money of and stop bankrupting those countries?

>>133016268
I really hope you know that without communism you'd be having the Russian yellow-white-black flag right now.

>>133028329
>Thatcher style

Lmao most of the companies existing within the Chinese market are state-ran. It's capitalism but with the state running things. IE, you know, state capitalism.

>>133011828

>billion dollar a day subsidy to cuba
>billion dollar a day subsidy to every baltic country plus belarus
>just think of what a country like kazakhstan or ukraine ate up
>humongous army and nuclear arsenal (expensive as fuck)
>bunch of parasitic communist party apparatchiks eating caviar and champagne all day

my grandad was a commie back in the day, pretty high up. his take is that moscow declared independence from its colonies cause that shit was expensive as fuck and not worth it at all

> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_major_famines_in_India_during_British_rule

It is kind of interesting that you justify how the soviets treated their OWN population by how the brits treated their "savage" colonies which they openly considered less worthy then them.

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>>133027900
>because shortages were more common in the Soviet Union than the Russian empire

honestly nigga. where do you get your fucking education?

before end of 70'ens Europe hano year without any small or heavy famine. the west medias just dont talk about. right now in ukraine UN is feeding over 3 million people completely. that fucking same level like in africa of 80'ens.

do you hear any western medias reporting about?

Eu survives only because it has advanced transportation systems to steal the shit somewhere else and ship it in time to cover own failure. AND USA ARE IN THIS EVEN WORSE.

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It collapsed when it was no longer needed. Communist east merged with masonic west and we currently are under zionist occupation. Of course this was the plan all along.
HISTORY IS WRITTEN BY THE VICTORS

>>133028418
What are you even trying to say here?

>nazi

Fuck no, /pol/ LARPers are dumb as a brick.

> Lmao most of the companies existing within the Chinese market are state-ran

State has a large share within large strategically-important companies, but it does not actually tell them how many cars they have to make in order to fulfill the five-year plan. It is nowhere close to the system that Soviet Union had.

>>133023693
>A
>FUCKING
>LEAF

>>133027812
I'm sorry but I dont think he wants to become a cosmonaut, so NK should do the trick for him. And its absurd to claim that the chinese government protects its people from being abused by the market. Look at chinese factory workers, their working conditions, and the compensation they get for their labour. Shouldnt a socialist country defend exactly them as they are the poorest members of society that have only their labour to offer, why is this allowed? Also there seems to be a reoccurring theme where a state tries to transition to a communist society, but ends up having to implement "capitalist" reforms so that it doesnt collapse. Quite interesting.

>>133028303
Stalin wrested control of Russia from the Jews. This is why in the Cold War the Zionist globalists stopped supporting communism and started supporting the USA instead.

Soviet Union 1917-1950s: Globalist dictatorship supporting multiculturalism
Soviet Union 1950s-1980s: White ethnonationalist state only supporting a token façade of its original communist ideas

Stalin literally purged the Jews from leadership, this is when they migrated the support to the West to achieve their aims.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctors%27_plot

>>133018734
Not only that - they beat the USA in the space race and then stood up to the whole west for decades in a Cold War before eventually losing. Impressive given the might of their opponent.

>>133028101
Do it then, if it will make you happy.

>>133027977
>But still, the country needed financial aid in order not to starve
It's gonna sound horrible but sometimes letting a country starve is better than supporting the people running it just to keep it going. I do not agree with the notion that 1996 happened for humanitarian reasons, I find it preposterous, but for the sake of argument I'm willing to elaborate. Look at modern Ukraine, it's exactly in the same situation that Russia was in 1996 It's economy is collapsing, it's society exists on the brink of poverty and starvation and it's politics are build around one big lie "The west will save us." We can discuss Russia's own meddling and it's support for separatists, but it's no differen than what was going in chechnya in the 90s by the West.

Your choices when something goes this badly are force, patience or "starving the beast". No one wants to commit force, not even russia, no one in the west has the stomach to starve the beast, especially because that will result in geopolitical turn from ukraine and is otherwise an inhuman approach. But the problem is - as DPRK shows, patience doesn't work. Because so long as the system in place is corrupt it will remain corrupt untill the removal of corruption becomes necessary for survival of the system.

>>133028842
My point is that mass starvation happened in empires of that era. The fact that Soviets were less cheuvenistic about it is point FOR them, not against them. As the guy hiding behind Naz-Bol flag pointed out, Russian empire had plenty famines all it's own. I have no doubt that between Lenin's Raskulachivanie and Stalin's refusal to release reserve supplies they made it worse, not better, but the notion that it happened only because of Soviets is dellusional.

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>>133028953
>It collapsed when it was no longer needed.

wait. did they teach this fake shit to you?

nigga soviet union was the biggest block of nationas and countries on this fucking planet where everything was interconnected to the level that even now 30 years later the old soviet networks are still working and countries just starve to shit when they got disconnected from "soviet union political and economical system". baltic countries went to shit even they live 120% from EU and USA finances. Caucasus countries still exists because they got brains in the last moment and kept the connections. (beside fucking georgians, who literally freeze and starve now)

Central Asian countries never left Soviet Union. They got own "freedom" but economically it is still all soviet union there. and dont let me star about fucking banderas..

>>133029003

just telling you in a polite way to shut the fuck up and follow your Hitler my nigga.

USSR was the epitome of cuck, even worse than Sweden

>>133029618
>It's gonna sound horrible but sometimes letting a country starve is better than supporting the people running it just to keep it going.

lol. i dare you to say it into the face of Yugo.

>>133029356
>multiculturalism
>communism

Am I the only one here who ever read the Communist Manifesto? Did you know that under Marxist immigration system you would be stripped of all of your possessions before you even enter the country and be sent to a reeducation camp before joining society? Read up on that. Marx wrote it himself.

>>133028953
Legit communism is not tolerated in any western capitalist nation, unions are continuously busted and broken down, the only philosophy permitted in the mainstream is liberal global capitalism.

You don't have anyone on the supposed "left" calling for lynching capitalists anymore, you don't have any politicians not being paid off by some fat rich hog trying to push an agenda, Bernie Sanders and Macron and Corbyn are not even "soft" socialists they're outright progressive capitalists and the fact that anyone even thinks otherwise is proof that the genuine left has no real influence on any power structure in the West, they have been pushed so far beyond the mainstream that Keynesians are being called socialists.

>>133013843
>>133013694
It was literally an empire. Empires are made up of semi-sovereign states.

>>133028778
>Communists ruin a eastern european country
>Then they send their kids to live in Western Europe
ayy

>>133029118
Still not a Thatcher-style economy. Thatcher was all about mass privatization and globalization much like Reacuck.

>>133029722
Not a Nazi LARPer though. I'm literally on your side and 100% agree with >>133029631 everything you said here.

>>133029741
Finally, a Russian who isn't all "muh USSR", "muh Stalin", etc.

Tsarist Russia is where it's at.

>>133011828
>Why did Russia cuck itself by allowing the Soviet Union to collapse?
Why did Russia cuck itself by allowing the Soviet Union to begin?

FTFY

>>133029871
I do not wish to debate Marxist theory, I'm just stating thr facts. The Soviet Union as originally envisioned by Lenin and Trotsky was founded on globalist principles. It was meant to be the ultimate worker's state, a union of all nationalities under the banner of communist ideas.

Which is why the neutral name "Union of Soviet Socialist Republics" was chosen, without even referencing Russia or any other nationality.

Stalin brought Russian nationalism back as part of the official state ideology.

>>133030039
>>133030170
Yeah gotta love the degenerate court of the Romanovs and the reckless spending.

>>133029356
Agreed. And it's no surprise that (((they))) took power through oligarchs and mafia after Gorby. The misery of the 1990s was caused by (((them))), and yet ancucks/lolbetarians will still think that capitalism was the cure

>>133030039
>Finally

you sound like little bitch, who finally got her blowjob paid.

have you ever heard my fucking piece of shit that there are such things like "discussions" where people to try find a way to come forward.

you on other side are just a farting fuck who invent some bullshit and then bitch so long against everyone until people agree only to shut you the fuck up.

>>133018320
Right, germans were storming Moscow and laid siege on Petersburg, oh wait, it was communists who were fleeing faster that even frenchmen from the army that had several times less tanks and artillery.

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>>133011828
Soviet Union was a shithole to live for people. They fucked up their economy by faking everything, simply couldn't sustain themselves anymore so they collapsed cause nations that were in USSR started rioting and asking more, simply cause all the goods they were making were taken away from them and transported to Moscow. Soviet Union was fake and gay, no glory there.

>>133030244
There would be zero difference had Trotsky became the head of the USSR. He'd more likely either invade Europe or declared Perestroika by the 1950s.

Stalinism and following Sovietism is a pragmatic position. "Well, we're in power. Let's do something".

> It's gonna sound horrible but sometimes letting a country starve is better than supporting the people running it just to keep it going
Well, you would probably not be posting here had Gorbatchev followed your advice. The thing is once you reach this point you have already lost. The trick is not having a fucked up Kolkhoz system in the first place so that you never have to make a choice of either having the people starve or getting into debt slavery.

> The fact that Soviets were less cheuvenistic about it is point FOR them, not against them
You mean the fact that the Soviet starved European villages instead of starving non-European colonies? Whatever it is, it is not a point for the soviets.

> Russian empire had plenty famines all it's own
Famines in the Russan Empire were caused by weather conditions and were not anywhere close in scale to what happened in collectivization with up to 10 million people starving to death. Such a thing could simply not happen in any halfway-sane economic system.

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>>133030662
>Soviet Union was a shithole

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I'm just going to leave this here

>>133029305
>Look at chinese factory workers, their working conditions, and the compensation they get for their labour.
Yeah, it's shit, no question, but I ask you this, can you do better? Isn't liberals all over the world jumping at the opportunity to outsource to china precisely because of that cheap and efficient labour?
>Shouldnt a socialist country defend exactly them as they are the poorest members of society
Not at the expense of the society as a whole. Oh sure china could dump all it's military and foreign budget and gut it's capitalists to supply the workers

>why is this allowed?
Because you have no conception of how hard it is to bring 1.3 billion people out of poveryty. They are doing the best they can, look at stats - they really are. And meanwhile they aren't living in a country that wouldn't give a shit about them, cause lol we can outsorce but in a nation that constantly works to improve their lot in life.

Tho as someone never having lived in China I could very well be misinformed by false stats, tho if you believe that stats coming out of CCP are fake, discussion about PRC is a pointless exercise.

>communist society
As I already noted in this thread, neither USSR nor PRC claimed to have acheived it, only to be working towards it. And that's demonstarbly true from stats coming out of both nations.

>but ends up having to implement "capitalist" reforms so that it doesnt collapse
Because capitalism is hella easy, compared to communism. I think if you've read my other posts in this thread you'd see that I'm by no means anti-capitalist leftie you are likely used to dealing with in EU, tho being from bulgaria I have no Idea what leftists are like in your nation. I, for a number of complex reasons, prefer end goal of communism. But I'll freely admit that there was any number of most spectacular fuck ups in attempts to implement it especially by people who put the ideology ahead of pragmatic realist needs.

>>133030273
Nicholas II was based on the JQ.

> USSR was the epitome of cuck, even worse than Sweden
OK, Soviet Union was bad but Sweden is Sweden, it is the undisputed heavyweight champion in special olympics of cuckoldery. USSR never allowed the country to be flooded by massive of islamists at the expense of the local population just for the sake of "making a statement".

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>>133017929
>every problem I have is capitalism somehow
"Better not play outside while it's raining, Jimmy, you might catch the common capitalism. Afterwords, we'll go see your grandfather in the hospital and see if his terminal private property has cleared up."

This is how you dorks sound.

>>133023693
stfu and kys dumb leaf

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>>133030966

>Earlier, the bourgeoisie, as the heads of nations, were for the rights and independence of nations and put that "above all." Now there is no trace left of this "national principle." Now the bourgeoisie sell the rights and independence of their nations for dollars. The banner of national independence and national sovereignty has been thrown overboard. Without doubt, you, the representatives of the communist and democratic parties must raise this banner and carry it forward if you want to be patriots of your countries, if you want to be the leading powers of the nations. There is nobody else to raise it. (Stormy applause.)

Reminder.

https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/stalin/works/1952/10/14.htm

>>133030671
Whoever thinks the Cold War was communism vs capitalism sure is dumb. It was globalism vs nation-states, just like the current fight is.

>>133030726
>Well, you would probably not be posting here had Gorbatchev followed your advice
Again, would trade this internet thing for a degeneracy-free society any day.

>>133011828
Too many mouths to feed.

And lets be honest, Baltic subhumans arent worth it,

>>133030273
No more degenerate than anyone else, or do you buy into whole Rasputin gay-orgy court propaganda? Consider the following: Rasputin was killed by gay shitskin and british agent.

>>133031097
>Whoever thinks the Cold War was communism vs capitalism sure is dumb. It was globalism vs nation-states, just like the current fight is.
Exactly.

The Soviet Union had millions of flaws, I'm not defending its terrible system, but it was anti-IMF, anti-World-Bank, and anti-Trilateral-Commission / Bildelberg Group, which is why it was destroyed from within.

>>133029855
>lol. i dare you to say it into the face of Yugo.
What's with you and daring people. Provide actual counter arguments if you will, or fuck off. We have a saying in russia "people have the government they deserve" and I believe it wholeheartedly, for good and ill. Attempting to install or mainatin a government w/o popular support. no matter what government, always end in disaster of various magnitutdes.

If you want what's best you either have to go in and conquer and than rule the population, or you don't interfere and let people figure shit out for themselves. Not that either is a possibility in modern geopolitical landscape for most nations. But while sending food and medical supplies can at least be viewed as humanitarian effort, the moment you start sending capital you are undermining any hope the population has for actual change.

>>133031313
>No more degenerate than anyone else
That's where we agree. The royal families of Europe were decadent as fuck. Need I also point to the Bourbons?

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To people posing this GDP statistics, if you have to wait in huge lines to buy bread you will not give a fuck how much GDP your country produces. What matters is the general health of the economy and whether the country can provide its population with consumer goods.

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>>133030966
This happened cause all the countries that made the biggest income to USSR left it, lmao.
>Burger people think they understand something.

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>>133030966
fixed that for you

>>133031861
Because that never happened ever in capitalist nations

>>133018108
>Stalin is viewed in high regard because many people believe that if any other leader was ruling the USSR Germany would win WW2 and all Russians would be sent to concentration camps
Which is ironic considering his purges of the army and retarded five year plans were directly responsible for russia's poor performance and heavy losses at the beginning of the war. Just about any other leader put in charge of the USSR in 1936 or so could have easily crushed Germany before the end of 1942. Stalin's idiocy is the reason the Germans were able to make it as far as they did.

I'm honestly surprised they didn't win given the circumstances. I guess ruskies have lend lease to thank for that.

>>133030966
Same thing is happening to the west after adopting neoliberalism.

Classcucks will always defend their capitalist masters

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>>133032054

>>133031027
Yes, USSR already had shitskins and mudslime in it and allowed them to highest positions, while working christian population to death, slaughtering white educated people, supporting local nationalists with massive multicultural propaganda.
Sweden is cuck, USSR is renting his children to Japanese military bordello. For a thank you.

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>>133032200
CAPITALISTS BTFO

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>>133032054
Merican breadline

>>133031861
You sure are dumb. The waiting in line for bread happened during the late Gorbachev years when perestroika was in full force. It also continued during the Yeltsin years. McDonalds and western companies everywhere but no one has money to buy from them.

>>133032074
t. Nazi LARPer having no clue of history

>>133031923
RSFSR (aka Russia) produced by far the most GDP and GDP per capita and this image includes all FSU (former Soviet Union) countries' GDP anyway, you idiot.

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>>133031923
Russian GDP still fell substantially during Yeltsin regardless. Comparing USSR with Russia is flawed because a third of the population had left the union, but comparing the Russian SSR with 1990s Russia you can still see a gigantic drop.

>>133032074
Stalin was not stupid, just ruthless in consolidating power. He died peacefully in power, in his sleep, an old man, something Hitler was unable to do.

> Which is ironic considering his purges of the army and retarded five year plans were directly responsible for russia's poor performance and heavy losses at the beginning of the war. Just about any other leader put in charge of the USSR in 1936 or so could have easily crushed Germany before the end of 1942. Stalin's idiocy is the reason the Germans were able to make it as far as they did.

You could also make the argument that poor performance of the Soviet Union in the Finnish war was one of the reasons Hitler decided to attack the country in 1941. Had Stalin not done any of that shit Germany might not have dared to ceize the opportunity.

>>133032054
Nice try but I have my grandparents who can tell me just how much communism sucked

>>133032074
>Which is ironic considering his purges of the army and retarded five year plans were directly responsible for russia's poor performance and heavy losses at the beginning of the war.
They are also responsible for hitler's theory of Soviet union will "descend into civil war the moment I attick" proven wrong. Of course he went overboard, of couse some of the shit he did was paranoid excessive and unnecessary, but, at the end of the day, one thing can not be forgotten.

It worked.

>>133031861

you do realize i can post such pictures from every fucking western country to you.

also fuckign shit "social care" country as Germany still has soupkitchens when Soviet Union saw hobos only on TV. even when being whole time under fucking sanctions where the West baned ALL imports of anything into Russia.

>>133032205
This. Conquering Europe and expecting nothing in return except ((loyalty)). That's as cucked as you can get.

If the Soviets were smart they would have allowed Poland, Germany etc.. to become capitalistic, but they still would have left their bases there for at least 100 years and reperation'd the shit out of them + taking Marshall aid. That shit would have catapulted the USSR straight into the richest nations.

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>>133032485
Compare that map to 2000, you can see why Russians hate the West.

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>>133032449
Then why such a great nation collapsed? You have to be complete idiot if you think everything was ok with USSR's economy.

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>>133011828
Traitors in the government like Yeltsin conspired with the Americans to destroy the Soviet Union.

>>133032200
You are comparing the greatest economic crisis in human history to mundane realities of life in the Soviet Union of the 70s-80s.

>>133018837
Kids were hot. Should have saved them.

>>133032876
See >>133032385

Also fun fact, the Great Depression was avoided in the USSR.

>>133032832
>Then why such a great nation collapsed?

the literally achieved what they planned and discovered it is not what they dreamed it will be. then they allowed elitism in own rulling system and it all went to shit.

>>133032385
>The waiting in line for bread happened during the late Gorbachev years when perestroika was in full force.
Nah mate, it happened on and off trhrout the years. Brezhnev's model caused stagnation in perpetuity and if it wasn't so shit at it's job people would never support the Perestroika.

Tho as the other guy pointed out, it's not like shit economic decisions were never made by capitalist state, they are just usually less impactful because market can adjust itself and stretch around the government's mistake. The only thing that could do that in USSR was black market, and the 90s were in many ways a consequence of this. When the only capitalists you have in a nation are criminals, it's no wonder that upon transition to capitalism your economy get's stolen by them.

>>133032876
That is, in fact, not an argument.

> also fuckign shit "social care" country as Germany still has soupkitchens when Soviet Union saw hobos only on TV

An average German soup kitchen for refugees serves better quality food than Soviet "state-owned public restaurants".

>>133032876
>mundane realities of life in the Soviet Union of the 70s-80s.

lol. nigga there are tent cities all over USA right now.

Niga you got the gay

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>>133033079
So if there was some sort elitism so basically there was no socialism left where all people are equal, as it says in its doctrine.

>>133032568
>implying there even was such a threat
Right, and both Jagoda and Yezhov were spies.
Stalinists can say whatever bullshit they wants, we can see total failure at Winter War and incompetent (a fucking leutenant promoted after all his superiors were executed) leader of western front aviation who has suicided to escape answering for his failure.

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>>133032527
And my parents could tell you how much capitalism sucks. My father was cheated out of his retirement and earnings by his employer to which he only gets about $20 every month for and my mother was sunk so far deep into debt by medical bills due to complications that we're the hospital's fault. I know plenty of people that miss the Soviet Union, too. The point is people will hate and like almost any system.

>>133033611
>implying there even was such a threat
There was A threat, given that everything coming out of that period is someone's propaganda, it's hard to determine the magnitude of it or validity of actions against it.

But there were,in fact, plenty anti stalinist tortskyists who wanted power back and as lenin showed would risk the well being of a nation and the success in war itself to gain power. Why else would brezhnev rise after ousting khruschev?

Hell knows I have no love for Khruschev, but brezhnevs usurpation of his seat and actions after that are largely responsible for stagnation that caused perestroika, and later collapse of USSR.

>>133033068
>avoided
I wouldn't call 'millions starved to death' as 'avoided'

A story my parents told me, a worker at a meat-packing factory told them never to buy sausage made in the morning. Why? Since noone cleaned the meat grinders all the time there were cases when rats got into the machine, and when it started in the morning the first sausages had rat meat, fur and excrements in them.
Obvious question, why don't you guys just clean the machines up? Answer: why bother when there is already a sausage deficit in the market and the sanitary inspection comes only once a year.

Even if the capitalist system has examples of similar shit happening, it is not that widespread as it was in the Soviet Union, since the factory owner will fire everyone once he learns of that kind of shit happening since he would be afraid of a PR nightmare. But if you have an economy with central planning, such stuff will be the norm everywhere, since noone will ever give a fuck about quality.

>>133034138
Yes let's judge the entire system based on a literal anecdote, in russian sense of the word.

How brilliant.

For the note, the factory was in Moscow. God knows what kind of shit went on in the regions.

>>133034138
>A story my parents told me, a worker at a meat-packing factory told them never to buy sausage made in the morning

lol. i was told the same by the polak butcher, who was working in meat factory near Frankfurt.

>>133018148
It was an anti establishment guerilla army that wanted a world revolution under a radical doctrine and it was supported by outside forces and had non-natives in its ranks (jews, georgians, balts etc.), so it's similiar from a pragmatic standpoint.

> Yes let's judge the entire system based on a literal anecdote, in russian sense of the word.
History has already judged that system. The entire country was sold to the highest bidder for Snickers and Turkish toilet paper without anyone firing a single shot to defend it.

>>133034659
Applause, first actual valid argument out of a troll, even broken clock's right twice in a day after all.

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>>133034138
>factory owner will fire everyone once he learns of that kind of shit happening
Ugh, try again sweetie.

>>133034054
Seeing the amount of bullshit from stalin's purges, like 100k of polish spies, society of mute&deaf german spies, I find it hard to believe the whole "trotky civil war threat". Even if we assume the possibility - it was Stalin's fault the trotsky was a threat, if not for his coup - no threat of counter-coup.

>>133034138
Have you ever read the Jungle by Upton Sinclair? When capitalism was in full effect and roaring in America, shit like that did happen all the time. Shoveling nails and sawdust into rotted meat and stuffing it all in a sausage. Yup. Looks good to me. Seriously meat packers must universally not give a shit.

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>>133034138
lmao literally laugh my ass off about that rats in sausages

>>133034931
As far as I've read those guys were fired and the factory faced huge losses and will hopefully hire people with IQ>80 next time.

>>133035183
In the early 1900s*

>>133016268
Noone with a basic knowledge of the social, economical and political situation of the last 1800 early 1900 russia would say anything remotely like this

>>133034931
Jesus Christ this is making me legit fucking angry. They should be fucking killed.

There are boundaries you shouldn't cross. Fucking with someones food is one of the most evil things I can imagine. Slavs are truly subhuman tier.

> Yup. Looks good to me. Seriously meat packers must universally not give a shit.

What matters is the scale, and the fact that a factory where such shit happens will go broke if the public learns of this kind of shit. In the Soviet Union this is not the case since central planning creates constant deficit and there is no competition between different businesses and brands. That way literally noone will give a fuck even if the factory director finds out this kind of shit is happening.

>>133035151
>Seeing the amount of bullshit from stalin's purges
Yeah, I totally get that, but look at the numbers people float around for sttalin's purges, they are inconsistent and ipossible to judge rationally. If stalin was so happy purging folks by the thousands why the fuck crimean tartars and ukrainians who betrayed USSR and aided hitler en mass didin't get all slaughtered but instead were only forcibly relocated? Still a fucked up thing to do to an entire population for a crime of but a few but it shows that he wasn't an omnicidal lunatic many portray him as. Just a very paranoid man. I don't think we will ever truly know which way is up on that one and I dislike both the "Stalin did nothing wrong" and "Stalin killed 20million russians" sides equally as they are both clear exercises in propaganda.

> it was Stalin's fault the trotsky was a threat, if not for his coup - no threat of counter-coup.
And if it wasn't for lenin's own coup than there wouldn't have been a civil war between reds and whites.

And if it wasn't for the revolution there wouldn't have been a need for tsar to step down.

And.
And..
And..

You get the idea. Two russians can only have a constructive debate if they have one boss or have no conflict of interests whatsoever, it's a cultural problem, see.

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>>133035805
>What matters is the scale,


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_horse_meat_scandal

Fags

>>133035988
>pic

Literally WE WUZ tier, Ukraine is a giant version of FYROM.

> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_horse_meat_scandal

The whole point is that this was a scandal that caused huge losses and lawsuits for the assholes who did this shit. In the Soviet Union noone would give a fuck since there were no economic incentives to give any.

>>133035988
Don't forget this one

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Carne_Fraca

>>133036330
>noone would give a fuck
But that's where you are wrong my man. If that was really true someone like gorbachev could have never come to power, and yet he did, by popular demand no less and without bloodshed.

The fact that you can't see control mechanisms of another system because of your blind hate for it, is your personal flaw, not that of communism or USSR

You guys should learn something from the German.
He is a smart man.
He doesn't give meme flags (You)s

>>133022326
Jewish empire, Jewish bankers were trying to take over Russia since Napoleon.

Listen, go to Africa, have black kids, and build a socialist state there. Africa is bigger than Russia, and has more resources, and the people are naturally thieves just like you commies.

> Literally WE WUZ tier, Ukraine is a giant version of FYROM

Dude, there is some Ukrainian professor who literally believes Jesus was Ukrainian!
http://patent.net.ua/intellectus/storys/wonders/1492/ua.html

>>133034138
Dude do you have any fucking idea how long it took before America started regulating meat packing? It was not until the 1906, the conditions prior were arguably worse than what you described, because it was not just "one factory" or "one plant" it was widespread and chronic, and it was not until the 20s and 30s that meat packers even got unionized and improved the conditions such that they weren't risking their lives daily and got a fair wage and reasonable hours.

Even today you can see in capitalist countries that sanitation very often gets overlooked, which results in ridiculous recalls all the time. In Canada there was a baby food shortage just this past year because of a botulism outbreak that kept all PC brand baby food off the shelves for months, this was over half the entire stock of baby food at the grocery store I work at, gone for months, empty shelves because they didn't clean their equipment properly.

>>133021721
>without fries

you fucking monster!

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>>133011828
TRIATORS
R
I
A
T
O
R
S

> The fact that you can't see control mechanisms of another system because of your blind hate for it, is your personal flaw, not that of communism or USSR

The control mechanisms were GOST government standards and various inspections. None of that can replace normal oldschool market competition and "free" regional press capable of destroying companies that sell sausages with rat meat.

>>133030966
With negative population growth. women being raped in your mega apartment buildings, when there is plenty of land for family to own and build houses on.

>>133011828
literally natsocs fleeing Germany after WW2

>the enemy of my enemy blah blah blah

whole lot of good that did.

>>133011828
>running out of other people's money
>allowing itself to collapse

ahahaha economic retards can't into cause and effect

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>>133036761

>>133033218
My job takes me traveling around the country a lot and I have yet to find a tent city.

>>133018315
thread

central planning made the USSR less efficient than Japan, when USSR had unlimited resources and Japan was extremely limited.

>>133036761
Jesus is omnipotent son of god, he can do whatever shit he wants, including being an ukrainian. Faith is not based on facts so there is nothing wrong with professor believing this bullshit.

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>>133031923
It includes those countries, which is why it's labeled FSU instead of Russia.

>>133031033
>checked
>fucked saved

C A S H

R

U

L

E

S

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>>133032876
You don't seem to understand that this is a normal part of capitalism and capitalism is going to give us another economic crisis (along with all the innumerable problems we currently have), one that will make the great depression look like child's play. Late state capitalism will not last forever.

> Dude do you have any fucking idea how long it took before America started regulating meat packing? It was not until the 1906, the conditions prior were arguably worse than what you described
I was talking about the fucking 70s, not about the shit in America 100 years ago. I am aware that during the 19th century the conditions were way worse than even what happened in the USSR in the 80s. It's called technical progress.

> In Canada there was a baby food shortage just this past year because of a botulism outbreak
Yeah, a local crisis causes temporal shortage which the market regulates in time. The Soviet system hat constant shortage, constant malpractice and as a result debt and buying grain in Canada, which lead to its inevitable end.

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>>133037342
>central planning

BWAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAH

>>133037113
Other's have already supplied this thread with plenty examples of how those control mechanisms continue to fali en mass to this day and how pursuit of profits contributes to it.

Again, your entire argument is based on a anecdote, making it retarded, USSR had plenty flaws GOST as a quality control wasn't perfect, but nor is the press that can be made to shut up with a big enough bribe or bought out wholesale by a corporation or "old school " market race to the bottom to produce and sell the shittiest possible product for the highest possible price

If you want to bash USSR learn about it first ffs.

>>133037264
What makes you believe I like Ukraine in any way?)

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>>133037661
are you implying it didn't exist in USSR and that it wasn't it's ultimate downfall? now you're just going full retard

>>133032310
Hegelian dialectics, [Jew run Communism, Jew paper Capitalism]. both in the same set, does not equal Adam Smith's hidden hand of supply and demand and gold. ]Communism, Capitalism] Words created by lazy Jew Marx. A Hegelian dialectic trap.

>>133037514
nice try, but that graph fails to take into account economies grow, and with a growing economy those at the top get more, but those at the bottom get better. stay mad cuck

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>>133036227
Not enough Great Ukrainians ITT.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTVHogudHaI

>>133037342
Wrong, capitalism by definition is an extremely inefficient system. Take agriculture in a capitalist system as an example. In a communist system, farmers just have to fulfill a quota based on how many mouths need to be fed. They don't have to worry about a salary because all their needs are met in return and they live comfy. In the EU, excess supply of food is literally burned and wasted as to keep supply down and prices competitive. In a free market, this would cause a collapse as farmers get insufficient profit to keep their farms up and running leading to widespread famine. This is just one example of the absurdity of capitalism. I bet you can think of other examples like with apple making a new iphone model every year.