Some questions for /leftypol/

>>132832675
Socialism addresses the fundamental ineffciency and absurdity of laboring to generate exchange value. We've already reached a point in human development where we can provide the material conditions necessary for a dignified standard of living to every last human on the planet, but a misallocation of power has ensured a misallocation of resources which has ensured that millions still die for want of food, shelter, and treatment, and the rest of us waste most of our lives on non-essential, non-productive labor.

Even if you have a six figure salary and a comfortable NYC apartment, that doesn't change the fact that most of your time is spent doing something you don't have to. That's why everybody should care.

>>132833212
You didn't answer a single question.
Why am I surprised.

I know why you consider inequality a problem. I'm asking why you give a shit if you're not personally suffering because of it--which you very well may be. Answer my questions though.

>Even if you have a six figure salary and a comfortable NYC apartment, that doesn't change the fact that most of your time is spent doing something you don't have to
Wrong. If you have a six figure salary you can pretty much live however the fuck you want.

>>132833212
>We've already reached a point in human development where we can provide the material conditions necessary for a dignified standard of living to every last human on the planet
Why do you believe every human deserves a "dignified standard of living"? What constitutes a "dignified standard of living"? Do you have any proof that there are enough resources to provide a "dignified standard of living" for 7 billion+ people?

>>132833663
Inequality isn't a problem in itself though. It's a natural symptom of a fundamentally degenerate social order, and those at the top are acting entirely within their perceived self interests. Taxing billionaires more doesn't address the root of the problem, which is how power, not wealth is distributed.

Anybody who performs socially unnecessary labor to generate exchange value (almost everybody) is being swindled by capital. That's why I care and you should to.

>If you have a six figure salary you can pretty much live however the fuck you want.
You're an idiot.

>>132833982
"Deserves" is a spooky word comrade. Mutual aid has been a decisive factor throughout our evolution as a species: far moreso than competition. We all get along better when we collaborate.

>dignified standard of living
Shelter, food, medical treatment.

>Do you have any proof that there are enough resources
Global crop yields are currently something like 1.2 times the amount of calories needed to feed 7 billion people
There are five abandoned properties for every homeless person

These are the inefficiencies of life under capital.

>are you poor?
yea
if so, why?
i havent killed myself yet

>>132834211
Why are you deflecting?

>Anybody who performs socially unnecessary labor to generate exchange value (almost everybody) is being swindled by capital
Do you, yourself, perform socially unnecessary labor? Why? What do you do? Why don't you perform socially necessary labor?

Why haven't you answered these questions?
>why do you, personally, care?
>are you poor
>if so, why?
>if you live in a first world country, what's your excuse?
>if you hate being a wage slave, why not start your own business?
>if you want to be an anarchist, why not just go live innawoods?

Why do you care about the problems of others?

>>132834746
You were the one implying that every human deserved it.

>Shelter, food, medical treatment.
How much food? Enough to live comfortably or enough to barely get by? If the standard of living for the average middle class American would drop after a global revolution, why would they fight for such a future?

>There are five abandoned properties for every homeless person
The vast majority of homeless people are drug addicts, lowlifes, and the mentally ill who can't function in a normal society. Giving them a house wouldn't do them any good.

Bump for debates

>>132835014

He won't answer any of the questions because he's living in an ideological dreamland. Communism can only exist in a fictional environment.

>>132835014
>Do you, yourself, perform socially unnecessary labor?
I don't think so. I'm a public school math teacher. I'm very active in our labor movement but it's actually more difficult to analyze modern educators from a Marxist perspective than it is to do so for a factory worker or something. This is a field that doesn't generate revenue that is so blatantly skimmed off the top from our labor.

>Why don't you perform socially necessary labor?
When material wellbeing is directly tied to employment, there is only so much socially necessary labor to go around before people need jobs in more tertiary fields to support themselves and their families. This is one of the sources of what Marx identified as alienation. Consider how we'll always need farmers, doctors, teachers, production workers, etc. but not everybody can be one. So secondary fields such as marketing, investment, consulting, retail have cropped up to work within the absurd confines of the system that's developed. A lot of these workers know their jobs ultimately contribute nothing to our collective wellbeing, but they can't just stop doing them.

When material conditions are accounted for, this tertiary labor ceases to be necessary.

>>132833212
Any assumption that there's enough money and resources for every person on the planet is a 100% autistic thought. Honestly, you're a complete imbecile. There's 7 BILLION people on the planet and only about 60 TRILLION dollars on the earth, if it was all converted to dollars, and counted as the broadest category of money. If you take any amount of money that is considered livable, let's say, $40,000 yearly, the world would be spending a nice $280,000,000,000,000 to feed and home and clean every person on the planet. Let's go even lower. $10,000 a year per person. That takes your total to 70 trillion dollars. After you take into account living expenses, bills, and food, you're left with about 6 months of shelter and fucking nothing else. Kill yourself you braindead mongoloid.

>>132835014
>why do you, personally, care?
I want to live in a freer and less stressful society.

>are you poor
No, but I can't raise a family on this budget. I want kids but also know it's unwise to have them now.

>if so, why?
Market economies are inherently more expensive because somebody has to profit at every exchange. My house is expensive, my transportation is expensive, my healthcare is expensive. Yours are too.

>if you live in a first world country, what's your excuse?
Every person under capital works harder than they need to, and pays more than they have to. You do too.

>if you hate being a wage slave, why not start your own business?
"Business" is redundant and a large part of what makes our society so inefficient.

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>>132835712

>I teach common core and can't compete in the free market therefore I'm entitled to infinite gibsmedats

>>132836025
You're operating under the assumption that socialism is one enormous welfare program. It's not. The fact that you're talking about paying money to house people shows just how myopic your perspective is.

>>132835712
And yet you have yet to provide a suitable answer for the first question, let alone most of the others.

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>>132832675
>Why do you care?
human decency, charities aren't enough of a security
>Are you personally poor?
no
>If so, why? If you're living in a first world country, what's your excuse?
k
>If you hate being a wage slave, why haven't you started your own business?
I like my job (science/ag)
>If you want to be an anarchist, why not just go live innawoods away from it all? No one's going to stop you
I do live in a rural area for work and I don't really like people. Anarchists (including """""libertarian anrachists"""""""""") are childish as fuck

>>132836415
My point is that there isn't even enough fucking money to pay everyone in the world so how is any of that on a small scale going to work at all

>>132836310
Even "winners" in a free market are stiffed by capital. The winning move is not to play in the first place.

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>>132832675
>If you hate being a wage slave, why haven't you started your own business?
Isn't that like wage slave x10? Everything I know about people who start their own business is that it is A LOT harder work than simply working a regular 9-5.

I'm poor because I'm lazy and I hate work so I work 3 days a week on minimum wage.

I think I deserve to be poor though since I had every opportunity not to be but made bad choices based on laziness.

>>132836084
>You do too
You're assuming quite a bit there, big boy

>I want to live in a freer and less stressful society
Why? Define free. Where do you live? What's stopping you from moving to a place that's more free and less stressful?

>>132836525
Money is a token of exchange value. Why would a society focused on use value be concerned with this?

>>132836415

Why don't you move to Venezuela? That country is socialist and would align with your political views.

>>132836522
>human decency
slave mentality

>>132836555

They're both scams you fucking idiot. Capitalism just lets the slaves have a few better scraps and less risk of dying of malnutrition.

>>132836661
Why would anybody ever do anything if they don't get shit out of it? There's not a single person to ever exist that has done any action that doesn't seem or appear in their mind to have some sort of beneficial effect to them.

>>132836608
>Everything I know about people who start their own business is that it is A LOT harder work than simply working a regular 9-5
And yet according to communists they're just lazy pigs who steal their employees wages. Really makes you think.

>>132836765
XxSlav3M3ntalityxX

we are all slaves to something

>>132836625
It's a mathematical fact. That you would argue otherwise suggests that you don't even understand capitalism. If somebody is compensated for 100% of the labor value he generates, then how does the holder of capital profit?

Freedom is the liberty to spend one's time as he wishes. A market-driven society will always be less free because you are working beyond the time and exertion necessary to ensure survival.

>>132836874

And don't forget that the communist says that everyone is entitled to everything these lazy pigs produce.

>>132836995
turn your real flag on please :^)

>>132832675
lefty pol you cant make beats like this

https://youtu.be/70E9KA48Sic

>>132836963
Only biology, my friend.

>>132836866
Right. Most of us have to work to a certain degree to benefit ourselves. The problem is that we all work far beyond that point for the benefit of a parasitic class that contributes nothing to our wellbeing as a species.

Socialism is drawing demarcating that point and doing away with this parasite class.

>>132837258
>The problem is that we all work far beyond that point for the benefit of a parasitic class that contributes nothing to our wellbeing as a species.
yeah, they're called kikes and niggers
absolute parasites on the white man
oh wait you meant rich people

>>132837258
I, personally, make enough money to make myself happy and also not have to work long and stressful hours. I think socialism is an excuse for people who didn't make the right choices earlier in their life.

>>132836995
>It's a mathematical fact
What is? What makes you think I'm even partaking in this system and not living innawoods myself?
>Freedom is the liberty to spend one's time as he wishes
What would you rather be doing than teaching math?

>>132832675
All of them are eiher non-white or fester a degenerate fetish that they can't stand to see criticized.

Not even joking.

>>132836999
An owner of a bakery or something can be said to be jilting his employees, but he in turn is being leeched off of by landlords and banks.

There is room for administration positions in socialism, but not for blatant rent-seeking and usury.

>>132832675

Essentially, my answer to all of your questions is that freedom is best defined as "being-with-oneself-in-another."

Why?

Read Hegel and secondary scholarship on Hegel (Pippin, Pinkard). This will give you the answer that you want. Leftypol is made up - loosely speaking - of various camps of Hegelians. Implicit in your post is a fundamental misunderstanding about the relationship between the individual and the collective.

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>>132836995
He saves his money and gain skills till he has enough capital and real world experience, to be an entrepreneur. If he is to dumb or unskilled, he humbles himself and lives a good life being middle class and contributing to society.

Or he is a loser antifa who gets drunk, ruins others people stuff, and has sex with other men.

Because giving a shit is how you make progress. Regression starts with apathy. I personally feel like we as a race need to grow and one day when people are wondering around on other planets we can set up a group that reads through our history and LEARNS something. I feel like I do have a real responsibility to move us forward, grab all the stupid motherfuckers that not only sit out but also actively try to fuck us over with their shitty economic and social governments. Smash some fuckin skulls, because you cannot fix stupid, you can only go so far with educating people before you need to start pulling some triggers and culling some heard's. We're ultimately living in a very irrelevant time UNLESS we do some big shit. The thing is big shit doesn't happen when people don't give a fuck.

Hey /leftypol/

>Zionist groups funding rise of nationalists in the Netherlands
http://www.timesofisrael.com/report-two-pro-israel-organizations-in-us-funded-geert-wilders/
>Israeli lobby pushes for Geert Wilders
http://www.dutchnews.nl/features/2010/06/wilders_and_the_us_israel_lobb-2/
>Austrian Far-Right finds allies and support in Israeli parliament
https://www.ft.com/content/5d0b381e-1dcd-11e6-b286-cddde55ca122
>European far-right and Israel form strategic alliance
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/jun/06/israel-rightwing-europeans-migration-toxic
>Jewish groups back the AfD and Pegida in Germany
http://forward.com/news/214230/why-are-jews-supporting-a-german-right-wing-moveme/
>European Fascist parties receive backing from Israeli right
https://972mag.com/an-alliance-of-hate-the-israeli-rights-ties-to-european-facism/118580/
>Israeli intelligence services conclude that a far right Europe would be safer for Israel
http://jfjfp.com/?p=60338
>US Jews pour money into financing of anti-immigration parties in Europe
https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/asa-winstanley/us-anti-muslim-groups-fund-europes-israel-lobby
>European Far-Right forges links with Israeli right
http://www.haaretz.com/world-news/.premium-1.685317
>European far right dangerously anti-Muslim and pro-Israel conclude European intelligence services
https://theintercept.com/2016/11/30/growing-far-right-nationalistic-movements-are-dangerously-anti-muslim-and-pro-israel/
>Dutch Secret Services investigate Israeli links with Dutch Far Right
http://www.i24news.tv/en/news/international/europe/131777-161204-dutch-secret-service-investigated-far-right-politician-over-israel-ties-report

>>132837258
>The problem is that we all work far beyond that point for the benefit of a parasitic class that contributes nothing to our wellbeing as a species.
Why.
Do.
You.
Care.

How is it personally hampering the way in which you want to live your life?

Why do you care about what you perceive to be the suppression of others?

>>132837461
And even if you've carved a comfortable niche out for yourself, it's still one that is more expensive than it had to be.

It's one thing to understand why you're not especially motivated to challenge the status quo, but by actively defending it, you're still working against your own interests.

>>132837649
Archived that for you

>https://theguardian com/commentisfree/2012/jun/06/israel-rightwing-europeans-migration-toxic
https://archive.is/VgdQD

>>132837649

You are unable to deal with a reality consisting of a multitude of fears. It is too overwhelming for your emotionally stunted psyche. The true complexity of the world is not something you can cope with.

Thus, the fear is simplified into something more manageable for you: the Jew.

>>132837475
If you're a hermit in the woods you are not even participating in society and your perspective is pointless. Humans are social creatures.

I like teaching math and would continue teaching math under socialism. But I could do so under less precarious conditions.

>>132837664
>How is it personally hampering the way in which you want to live your life?
healthcare costs, property costs, good costs, transportation costs, education costs

>>132832675
communist must die

https://youtu.be/70E9KA48Sic

>>132837672
I get what you're saying, but capitalism helps drive technological development, as well as many other things. I don't think the resources themselves are getting more expensive, rather the amount of rare materials and amount of work put into a product has increased.

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>>132836995

1.) Freedom consists in being in a certain reflective and deliberative relation to oneself (“rational form”)

2.) The above is possible if and only if one is already in a certain (ultimately institutional, norm-governed) relations to others, if one is a participant in certain practices.

As you can observe, this account is resistant to any analysis of these forms of self- and other-relation that would isolate the possibility and the very content of any self-understanding from social and political structures at a time, so it is much less straightforwardly psychological than many other modern theories.

>>132837529
Okay faggot, enlighten us, and spare us the pretentious grandstanding and absolute faggotry. I'm interested to hear how the solution to human prosperity and greatness is just a more nuanced understanding of Hegel and other dead philosophers. Marx indirectly led to the deaths of around 100 million people so I don't have much hope, though.
>>132837919
>fear
this is how all leftists operate too so I don't see why this is a criticism, fear is a human emotion sometimes rooted in a logical position

>>132838028
There you go assuming again. I said nothing of living alone.

>healthcare costs, property costs, good costs, transportation costs, education costs
Where do you live?
>education costs
That's on you for not getting scholarships and/or choosing a meme degree that only lets you teach at a public school.

>>132838137
>but capitalism helps drive technological development, as well as many other things
This is not even disputed by most Marxists. Very few people dispute capital's ability to spur development, which is why it's generally considered a prerequisite for any eventual socialism. It's also why third world revolutions (which I still approve of in spirit) are often flawed from the outset.

The problem is that we eventually reach diminishing returns with capital-driven development as it becomes something bloated, redundant and ultimately self-serving. Not to mention disastrous to the environment.

>>132838658
>environment
fuck that, it's 1 AM and it's been a good discussion. Good night.

>>132838658
>environment
meme
>The problem is that we eventually reach diminishing returns
space, the final frontier

>>132838282

>the solution to human prosperity and greatness is just a more nuanced understanding of Hegel and other dead philosophers.

I did not say that. I said what leftbook's position is. They are interested in Marx, Stirner, Zizek, etc. - philosophers whose root is in Hegel. Most importantly, the understanding of what constitutes freedom. Leftbook believes that freedom isn't just getting what you want uninhibited by coercion.

>spare us the pretentious grandstanding and absolute faggotry

cry about it.

>>132838464
I've engaged you in good faith and answered the same question many times now. You either just don't get it or are being willfully obtuse. I'll say it one last time, then ignore you when you inevitably ask again:

No matter where you go or how much you are compensated, you will still pay more than is necessary under capital due to the very way markets operate.

I am not complaining about rent in Boston costing X, or an fucking Obamacare silver plan costing Y, or my salary being Z. If you keep thinking in these terms you've missed the point entirely.

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>>132832675
Your questions are all aimed at retarded strawman arguments that demonstrate you don't actually want to know anything about left wing political thought.

>>132834746
Those inefficiencies provide more options in what things you can have.
I'd rather have inefficiencies than be forced to take whatever lcd bullshit some asshole who doesn't know my personal needs designed.
Makes for a dull inhuman life.

>>132838793
ciao

>>132838958
Who's talking about Leftbook? This thread is addressing /leftypol/.
If you're not even /leftypol/, why are you answering for them?
And why refer anons to read others instead of explaining them yourself?

>Why do you care?
>implying
>Are you personally poor?
Broke right now, have been cash flush several times.
>If so, why? If you're living in a first world country, what's your excuse?
Ask your dad to give you a startup fund to hang yourself, faggot. Some areas are impossible to make money in, as in, regional areas, not just business sectors.
>If you hate being a wage slave, why haven't you started your own business?
>if you can't make enough money to live comfortably, why not use that money you don't have to become a captain of industry?
>If you want to be an anarchist, why not just go live innawoods away from it all? No one's going to stop you.
Stop fucking monopolising the woods you faggot.

>>132833212
Why should everyone be equal?

>>132837664
look dude, commies DON'T care. They are projecting. They are inferior, foolish, shitty people who want more stuff. Because they are shitty and can't make things less shitty on their own, they MUST advocate an ideology that lifts them up via force instead of merit, which is why oftentimes they think they will be the next great leader or a card-carrying party member or some shit instead of a fucking farmer

you will never reach any meaningful conclusion the same how you can ask a hobo all day why he's homeless, he will defend himself being a hobo to the death because he chooses to be a hobo to whine about it for gibs

>>132832675

I'm planning on going innawoods

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>>132832675
Because our present mode of social organisation is ecologically unsustainable, and we are headed for a catastrophe. Either we will create an ecological society, or we will simply go under as a species. Through social ecology, we find that the roots of our ecological crises are in hierarchical modes of social organisation. That is, the very idea of dominating nature stems from the domination of human by human.

tl;dr google bookchin

>>132839254
t. literally fifteen years old
>inb4 what did you say you little bitch i am 45 and a CEO of a fortune 500 country and i made it from the bottom of a nigerian immigrants anus this is freedom you musrat i will airstrike you

>>132839088
>Boston

So, if I understand correctly, it all boils down to you not feeling "free" enough, you believing that socialism is something achievable in your lifetime and thus something worth supporting, and you caring about the well-being of your fellow man. Gotcha.

>>132839101
>not answering the questions

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>>132832675
>>132832675
I'm a junior engineer wageslave aristocracry member. But you're right actually, I could end this if I wasn't so spooked. I wish it was so easy to just drop all that shit though.

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>>132839149

fuck I'm high.

>>132833212
>every last human on the planet
stopped reading. You are so misguided its sad :( thats me frowning

>>132836719
Actually it's capitalist with a formerly widespread social service network.

>>132839178
>Why do you care?
>implying
If you don't care then why ascribe yourself to any ideology in the first place?
>Some areas are impossible to make money in
Only for retards

So why do people want communism if it's failed each time its tried?

>>132839571
>tl;dr google bookchin
Kys r*ddit

I'm an anarchist becauase I'm extremely disillusioned and alienated by capitalism. I would guess I have similar reasons as to why you are /pol/tards, just that I took the class pill instead of the race pill

>>132839787
I care because it's in my self interests to further an agenda that benefits me.
>Only for retards
a/b/solutely ebin my american memer friend. Historians will look over this conversation and remember when economic disparity was BTFO by one man and his typically gigantic gut.

>>132839627
>not answering the questions
Because the questions are retarded.

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>>132832675
>Why do you care?
I got into leftism in general due to global warming as a starting point. Realizing capitalism is the enabler or source of a lot of problem is why i care
>Are you personally poor?
No. Come from a self made family
>If you hate being a wage slave, why haven't you started your own business?

>If you don't to be exploited, why not exploit others instead of ending the cycling of exploitation?

If you want to be an anarchist, why not just go live innawoods away from it all? No one's going to stop you.

>If you want to dispel the State, why not live in a remote piece of state land instead?

Very condescending questions desu. OP doesn't seem to want to hear what lefties think but just shit on them in a more polite manner

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>>132839967
That meme was on /leftypol/ before it was on leddit you gigantic faggot.

>>132838464

>he gives reasons
>"Why don't you just be better at living in this shitty situation?"

That is besides the point, maybe he fundamentally enjoys being a math teacher. His point is that shit is expensive to him, and he'd rather it not be. He believes that socialism/communism/some kind of post-marxist theory will facilitate that. You can either argue why things should be expensive, why things aren't actually expensive, or why his solutions would fail him.

Also, talking about "where do you live" ignores that he might want to live wherever he lives. Maybe he lives in San Francisco and doesn't want to leave, but property costs too much. What do you say, tough shit? That ignores his preference for living in San Francisco. If you disagree with it that is fine, but you're asking questions and he is answering, and you're just telling him to stop bitching and change his life/preferences.

>>132839623
why are you describing yourself

don't you see any fucking irony in everything they say?

>I'm too stupid to succeed in capitalism
>but somehow not stupid enough to make communism succeed, despite it's massively poor track record

>lookatme I can read karl marx's 3 books of incoherent ramblings, Das Kapital
>but I can't read books on personal and business development to actually do something about my life

>the economy will be more efficient if central government plans everything (socialism), trust me goyim it's foolproof my info says it is despite all the gross assumptions made for ease of calculation
>rather than an economy where everybody plans individually and independently with more real-time information that can never be practically reported to the state (laissez-faire) with more reliable info

>communism is inevitable
>but we must unite and overthrow and establish communism a.k.a. it's not fucking inevitable if you have to do something about it

go vote for corbyn somewhere else, bong

>>132838958
The problem is I don't care how many levels of woke you're on about what the concept of freedom is and how to best achieve it through an ideally chosen governmental system. There is the physical world, and there is the system we humans have currently chosen, and all I see Marxists doing is saying everyone is entitled to more free stuff, especially in white countries where said stuff is disproportionately produced by whites, to be given away to shitskins that produce nothing, but for "humanitarian" reasons. It's a thought bubble that has no bearing to what is actually occurring or will occur. I have no incentive to give up the capitalist system and submit to redistributionism. In fact, that sounds like I would have no incentive to produce at all because it will just be taken away and given to worthless shitskins and greasy hippies that have nothing to do but sit around and read political philosophy.

Humans adapt to the circumstances. Capitalism is not a conscious choice, not really, except the choice to agree to laws and the use of money. Human need and greed does the rest. Your very notion of freedom in an idealistic bubble separated from the reality on the ground is just a mental trick. I feel pretty free, all things considered.

>>132839251
Equality would mean ensuring that everybody has the same score in a game.
Socialists want to stop playing the game.

>>132840193
Nice strawmen, I'm sure the powerpoint presentations you perform are brilliant in getting your end goals achieved.

>>132839977
Then why imply that you didn't care.
>t. brainlet
Where do you live and why are you unable to make a decent living there? Why didn't you study hard in school? You only have yourself to blame.

>>132833663
after you labor all day

>>132839979
Then fuck off. I wasn't looking for discussion with this thread. I was asking /leftypol/ to answer some simple questions which are only ever met with deflection and whataboutism when asked irl.

>>132840324
not an argument

stay poor faggot. People like you are why I happily vote conservative

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>>132839806
Why do people worship capitalism when it's barely hobbling for decades now, and it's not falling on it's face only due to government handouts?

>>132840337
Because implying I inherently care is the same bullshit that everyone peddles like socialists are a humanitarian cause joined at the hip with faggot liberals.
>a bloo bloo bloo stop trying to take my stuff i worked hard for it
How about no. I studied hard at school in a shithole county and my goal is to rip what you have out of your hands. Deal with it you easily triggered trumplrina.

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>>132840398
>I was asking /leftypol/ to answer my retarded, obviously biased bait questions
>Why won't you just play along?

>>132840423
>People like you are why I happily vote conservative

It probably has more to do with your material interests friendo

>>132840530
We're coming for your toothbrush bucko.

>>132840337
>Why didn't you study hard in school? You only have yourself to blame.
>Actually believeing the meritocracy meme
I swear Micheal Young is spinning in his grave

>>132840613
>he lives in an immaterial world

if you cared so little of material interests, you would not care about capitalism then because it's all so irrelevant. OH WAIT haha

>>132840806
What? I said people vote mostly FOR their material interests

>>132840806
Now this is not an argument

You cant just go oit and start a business. Thats a total fantasy. In fact every year for the last 10 years we have had a decline in new business creation because ypu jist cant compete.with large corporations. The future is obvioisly large scale socialism No idea why anyone wpuld oppose a large expansive social safety net

>>132840687
>doesn't believe in meritocracy
>believes his ideology's leaders have merit

everything. Everything about the left, all self-contradictory and self-defeating. "Property is theft" they hail, when after taking back what is supposedly theirs, they now actually have stolen property lmao

>>132840919
das rite, everyone has material interests, including the immaterialists left

>>132840949
not an argument

>>132841126
>including the immaterialists left

I'm still not following you? What definitions of materialism and immaterialism are you using? I'm referring to the marxist notions of materialism

>>132841126
Oh like Micheal Young, I do believe in and advocate in meritocracy. As to whether actual meritocracy exists currently that is something like Micheal Young, I disagree with. Read up on his works nigga, he invented the word

>not an argument
>n-no you...
Now that is just childish

>>132841294
He probably misunderstood your post >>132840613 and is damage controlling since

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So is that more or less a wrap then?

Good thread lads.

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>>132841339
>>132841126

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>>132841721
No this is now a corbyn thread. Post your Corbyns

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>>132841886
Ubiquitous

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>>132841886

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>>132841886

>>132841999
I feel like a paper should be written on this gif, in Corbyn's early days he seemed to know the media hated him and would regularly glance at the camera when it happened.

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>>132842321
Maybe an interview when his political career is over where he can freely shit on the media. Plus IIRC he shat on some news media during a documentary made by Vice

OP, if you're still here, what is your political ideology? What do you care about philosophically? Would you like to see the world changed? If the answer to the previous question is yes, in which way would you like to see the world changed?

That your questions in the OP all show a relative lack of empathy is pretty interesting and I want to know more about your politics.

>>132832675
>Why do you care?
Capitalism is inherently unsustainable and exploitative, and is having a detrimental effect on the environment that may prove to be catastrophic. Both neoliberal capitalism and the authoritatian marxist regimes have failed to meet the needs of people worldwide. It's time we strive for a more just and fair world, for the sake of humanity and the planet.

>Are you personally poor?
I get by. By average American standards I probably am considered poor, but I do ok for a single young man.

>If so, why? If you're living in a first world country, what's your excuse?
I don't have a college degree, but would like to go and get one in thr next few years even though I know I'll end up with student debt. Rent is pretty high since I live in the city. I work two part time jobs and work 6-7 days a week.

>If you hate being a wage slave, why haven't you started your own business?
Starting a business that hires employees is against my ethos as an anticapitalist. I would consider forming a co-op or becoming self employed in the future.

>If you want to be an anarchist, why not just go live innawoods away from it all? No one's going to stop you.
Much easier said than done, both from a legal perspective and in terms of knowing adequate survival skills. Plus, I like the company of humans and society, despite all of its problems.

>>132833212
polcucks BTFO

>Why do you care?
Because I think all humans are potential elements of change, and I want to have a better life, and I wish the same for future generations.

>Are you personally poor?
I have Internet and a computer so I'm not destitute, but I'm a wage slave.

>If so, why? If you're living in a first world country, what's your excuse?
I live in the third world. The godly hand of the free market has pushed salaries down incredibly after the implementation of neoliberal policies.

>If you hate being a wage slave, why haven't you started your own business?
Because I'm against businesses in the first place. You're telling me to become what I despise, and to do to others what I don't want done to me.

>If you want to be an anarchist, why not just go live innawoods away from it all? No one's going to stop you.
Because that's not enough to escape the capitalist system. I still need food, land, housing, electricity; and I have to interact with capital in order to get these and other things. Besides capitalism is much more than simple "free market"; as an economic and social system it shapes our entire lives, culture and world. There's no escape from it.

>>132842842
>what is your political ideology?
Don't have one.
>What do you care about philosophically?
Anything that I come across.
>Would you like to see the world changed?
Don't care one way or the other.

>relative lack of empathy
At last you understand.


>>132842866
>Much easier said than done
There are plenty of "hippie" communes out there. And "adequate survival skills" can be easily learned via youtube.

>>132837649
Was there supposed to be a point made here?

>>132843901
Feel free to start replying to any of the posters destroying your self-righteous worldview that exists purely to backslap you anytime.

>>132844664
Refer me to the post destroying this supposed "self-righteous worldview" that I have presented.
Never said I was a capitalist myself :^)

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>>132844288
That leftist are also being played by the Jew. They continue to tunnel on le ebil capitalism when the exploitation they hate so much that occurs both in capitalism and they're brain damaged ideology, made by the Jew himself, is because of Jewry.

>>132843901
>Anything that I come across.

Well then, I might recommend you to read some of Marx's works if you're so open minded. I think you might find them interesting.

https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1847/wage-labour/index.htm

I was introduced to Marxism with Wage, Labor, and Capital. It was a pretty enlightening read when I read it quite a few years ago. Hopefully you give it a chance.

>>132845088
Read him at uni.
Stop trying to proselytize.

>>132845305
It's not necessarily about you. It's also about the large number of people that will lurk this thread and never post. These are the silent majority who are reading this thread and wondering which side will emerge victorious. It appears to me that you got pretty trounced in this thread, so I'm just shilling for the people who are willing to listen (a group which you are clearly not a member of).

>>132836525
>My point is that there isn't even enough fucking money to pay everyone in the world so how is any of that on a small scale going to work at all

boy, are you dumb. the first reply is saying people are working meaningless jobs making plastic or sugary shit that aren't necessary for society and even detrimental to it.

how can it get through to your thick skull that money doesn't mean shit? you do know that the majority of investment is done completely through computers and only suckers hand pick stocks? what the is the point for anyone to work when even the wealthy, who are reaping all the fruits of everyone else's labor, aren't producing anything of value themselves?

we have more than enough resources to sustain everyone a basic standard of living with bare necessities like food, clothing, and shelter. these are inefficiently being hoarded by those at the top, causing mass poverty to the rest of us. consider this, your dumb, privileged ass is living a happy, comfortable life from your rich parent's basement watching twitch streams all day. you're an unemployed, misogynist trump poster who gets fulfillment from shitposting 24/7. what need do you have to go outside and waste anyone else's resources? we have the capacity to give everyone that life and not slave away for our corporate overlords.

>>132844998
>Links about how far-right groups are colluding with pro-israel groups
>Leftists are with the jew

>>132845716
I want more than the bare necessities you piece of human trash.

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>>132833212
But in the end, all citizens become even poorer, because Communism is against the very nature of humans. This is why Communism failed each single time, fir example now we see people starving in Venezuela while having such rich oil resources. Commies are just useful idiots for the international and rootless Jewry.

>>132833212
You guys are so retarded. You don't know how anything works and you think you know how everything works. On top of that you are always so smug about it.

>>132846488
>Communism is against the very nature of humans
Read Kropotkin.

>Why do you care?
It's hard to explain - I just do. When I see someone having an awful time it just somehow bothers me on a fundamental level, and makes me wonder whether there's something I can do about it. If you don't feel that, that I'm fairly certain that there's nothing I can now - or ever - say, that will make you feel that too. Conversely, I fully understand righty arguments about creating swathes of useless dependent people, but I just don't feel the same way, and I don't think there's anything you could say that would bring me into your fold. You're welcome to try. But I suspect that we're just at odds, on some genetic level, and one side is going to have to wipe the other out, sooner or later.
>Are you personally poor?
I'm doing okay, thanks.
>If so, why? If you're living in a first world country, what's your excuse?
n/a
>If you hate being a wage slave, why haven't you started your own business?
I do, and I have.
>If you want to be an anarchist, why not just go live innawoods away from it all? No one's going to stop you.
Yep - I did. No one stopped me. It's going okay. I'm also very heavily armed, by the way, so I strongly suggest that you leave my little smallholding kingdom alone, and don't get too upset if I want to worry about poor people from time-to-time. I will also agree to leave yours alone, and not get upset if you want to not worry about them. Agreed? Okay - Peace In Our Time!

>>132846674
>nazi
>read
i found a fatal flaw anon

>>132836802
Well, some of the slaves anyway

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>>132845716
>im entitled of basic necessities
Fuck off faggot, welfare get constantly poured world shithole in the hopes these people actually do something with their live, produce something, start there own agriculture, own healthcare, own education. But no, do you know what these individuals do? They fuck and male for welfare leeches, slob around all day, break shit and even kill each other, this creates a bubble that grown the more its fed and the more its fed the harder it will burst, causing massive starvation, disease spread and death, see Africa . Why must you prompt up someone who, instead of helping society, actively ruins it. A working man is completely capable to provide for himself and a family, except in socialism that is, because you have to pay more all the shits that never do anything, if the common man can't manage to produce anything because it is constantly taken away from him the ebil rich eventually won't have anything as well.
>>132846225
Its called controlled opposition, playing both sides. Skinhead are the best example of this, but of lowlifes who believe Hitler was as the Hollywood movies portray him thus taking on the image of ebil not sees the Jew wants everyone to think is true thus chasing away people who will find worthwhile in NatSoc.
These same people fund far leftist too, instilling conflict in the population, and conflict, my friend, is the biggest profit.
>>132846674
Explain or get the fuck out. Convince me to read it. Don't just tell me. Because I fully agree that communism is against human nature.

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>>132847295
wtf is wrong with my english today?

>>132847295
He was a biologist who observed mutual aid being a decisive factor in evolution.

tell me, polcucks, do you vehemently defend capitalism because the richest today are most likely white, old men and the poor are brown? the majority of you are not these wealthy individuals and neither do you have any hope of reaching their levels.

i have doubts that you're willing to die at the hands of social darwinism if it means these old fucks can continue gaming the system and breed a white baby. your shitty welding job isn't going to last and nor will it be there for your descendants so you're dooming your personal lineage to extinction. but then again, you did meme yourselves into the 2016 election for the KEKs and we're all suffering the consequences for that

>>132837649
Literally just listing spooks

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>>132847114
Not a Nazi, but a National Socialist.

Get access to thousands of National Socialist books that Jews do not want you to read before they (((shut it down))) once again.

https://mega.nz/#F!5Q5UFZIR!MvGFhWEPb03Qg3ZFOh5yKg

Read about National Socialism, history, philosophy, race science, faith, threat of judaism, economy, exercising, as well as art and culture. This is for German-speaking /politicans only though, but feel free to link to related English speaking literature.

You can start with "Wofür kämpfen wir?", "Nationalsozialistische Fremdvolkpolitik", "Ewige Front", "Kleine Rassenkunde des deutschen Volkes", "SS-Liederbuch“, "Kunst der Führung" and “Mythus des 20. Jahrhunderts“.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZdhfVDqJnE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmGqG3grTrg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGIiYFbhVt0

>>132846674
No need to read, but just looking at your failure rate and using logic/common sense.

>>132847484
>not a capitalist, but a capitalist
lmao
go back to sucking that corporate cock faggot

>>132847446
majority of /pol/ is natsoc, m8

>polcucks
did this thread get linked to over at cripple chan?

>>132847573
>No need to read
Like pottery :-)

>>132846488
>Nazism isn't capitalism

Good meme.

>>132847413
Are you talking about prides, packs, and all sorts other gatherings? Because these can be considered a family unit. Animals conform to basic needs for survival and they are completely capable existing only withing this.

>>132847617
>did this thread get linked to over at cripple chan?
Yes.
>>132847700
>Nazism is capitalism
Gooder meme.

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>>132847295
>They fuck and male for welfare leeches, slob around all day, break shit and even kill each other, this creates a bubble that grown the more its fed and the more its fed the harder it will burst, causing massive starvation, disease spread and death, see Africa . Why must you prompt up someone who, instead of helping society, actively ruins it. A working man is completely capable to provide for himself and a family, except in socialism that is, because you have to pay more all the shits that never do anything, if the common man can't manage to produce anything because it is constantly taken away from him the ebil rich eventually won't have anything as well.
That's actually a pretty good critique of capitalism and the bourgeoisie.

I'll just leave this here:
>But though their profits are so very different, their labour of inspection and direction may be either altogether or very nearly the same. In many great works almost the whole labour of this kind is committed to some principal clerk. His wages properly express the value of this labour of inspection and direction. Though in settling them some regard is had commonly, not only to his labour and skill, but to the trust which is reposed in him, yet they never bear any regular proportion to the capital of which he oversees the management; and the owner of this capital, though he is thus discharged of almost all labour, still expects that his profits should bear a regular proportion to his capital. In the price of commodities, therefore, the profits of stock constitute a component part altogether different from the wages of labour, and regulated by quite different principles.

>>132839727
Turn your frownie face right way round you fucking fascist :( there is no other frownie

>>132847593
National Socialists are no capitalists. Yes, they allow private property and reward success, but they follow the idea that the capital must serve the people and not the other way round. Furthermore, they banned the Jewish financial system, the enslavement of people through compound interest. All in all, National Socialist succeeded to solve the severe unemployment problem and to make their country thrive economically even despite boykotts from Jew controlled countries.

>>132847828
I never said I agree with capitalism and the over rich. But at least it doesn't starve the population.

>>132847747
Look at the table of contents. All bases are covered:

https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/petr-kropotkin-mutual-aid-a-factor-of-evolution

>>132847573
What failure rate? Many (in many cases majorities of) residents of former Soviet republics and other Communist states prefer that system to what they have now. This has been demonstrated through polls.

Now, considering you have a NS German flag, what's YOUR success rate? One edgy Keynesian state with an overrated military that got it's shit kicked in by Judeo-Bolshevik subhumans in quite possibly the most humiliating defeat in history?

Or maybe Fascist Italy, which was such a rousing success they were defeated by fucking Greece, and then literally overthrew themselves to beg the Allies for peace?

>>132847824
It maintains all of the fundamental features of capitalism. Wage labor. The market. Commodity production/production for exchange. Private property. Alienation. The existence of capital itself.

So yes, despite the state mucking around in the economy (which every state on earth does), Nazi Germany was capitalist through and through. There's a reason the NS party had the support of so many industrialists and other strata of the capitalist class.

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>>132847824
>implying it isn't

>>132847961
>Yes, they allow private property
so they're capitalist
>they banned the Jewish financial system
but they didn't. Look at Schacht and MEFO bills. The entire reich economy was based on fraud and financier money magic. No one sucked corporate cock and sold germany to international finance like adolf.

>>132847626
If you would be a wannabe entrepreneur and fail hundred times, I think there would be no need to read your book about how to run a business successfully.

As Yuri Bezmenov said you are just useful idiots, it is never supposed to work.

>>132848012
>I never said I agree with capitalism and the over rich.
That's nice, come visit /leftypol/ some day. We have mutualists and socdems (and nazbols too!) to provide a quality discussion about neutered capitalism.

>>132836995
No you fucking retard, labor doesn't have a set intrinsic value, even if someone profits off of it you are getting paid what it is worth.

/pol/ BTFO

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Wow nu/pol/ is so fucking retarded they cant even beat leftists in an argument
You have to go back

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>>132848087
Fine but I never said helping others was bad.
>>132848096
>Wage labor. The market. Commodity production/production for exchange. Private property. The existence of capital itself.
Non of these are bad by themselves mate.
>>132848333
Fuck off faggot, NatSoc is the system that works best and its been proven in practice by Hitler himself.

>>132847295
>welfare get constantly poured world shithole in the hopes these people actually do something with their live

very common misconception. poverty is a self perpetuating spiral downwards. unless the entire population is educated, it's not possible to reverse this downward trend. think about the ghetto downtown area. what job prospects do all the children there have other than gang banging or peddling drugs? you think anyone would set up shop in the middle of a war zone? everyone is fighting for the scraps left by those at the top and willing to kill one another for survival

on the flip side of the coin, wealth is a self perpetuating style upwards. the rich side of town will have all the shops because nobody has to resort to crime. they have more than enough income to meet their basic needs.

hell, it's long been accepted and acknowledged by every legislature in the world that the poor need a disproportionate amount of investment to progress civilization. it's why every nation has a progressive form of taxation, taxing the rich more proportionately than the poor. it's why we've chosen to establish public schools in these poor areas because the for profit ones sure as shit won't

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>>132847617
>asked /leftypol/ questions
>surprised that they answered

>>132838658
Prove it. Prove that we are reaching a point of diminishing returns to the point forcibly hampering technological advances to give you free time is necessary. Because as far as I can tell, it's the complete opposite.

>>132848263
They undoubtedly stopped any Jewish influence on the economic/financial system and they banned big Jewish bankers leeching money by compound interest. As I said the capital served the people and not the people the capital. In addition, they were strongly against materialism.

All in all, they lacked essential characteristics of capitalism and their economic system worked incredibly well, solving all preceding, devastating problems.

>>132832675
>Why do you care?

they can't stand that someone doesn't validate their beliefs, as mentally ill people constantly crave validation and comfort.

they can not debate because the existence of ideas of their own brings them pain, sometimes actual, physical pain.

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>>132847446
We support it cause we know the biggest problem with socialism

>>132848263
How about you stop lying. The reich economy was based of its own independent currency.
>>132848700
Must we get on the topic of race?

>>132832675
>why care?
I believe in free market. but when the rich people make the rules that's not fair game.also money above a certain threshold doesn't make your life easier but rather makes you a uptight bitch. nordic countries are really doing well wwith their current model so why not adopt it(of course without all their cuck nonsense)
>are you poor
yes
>why?
I am an orphan and an undergraduate student.

>If you hate being a wage slave, why haven't >you started your own business?
no capital or experience. I am studying CS and math and maybe I'll try my luck in the startup meme.if not i'll be a rich wage slave

>>132848549
>Non of these are bad by themselves mate.

I disagree but that's not the point. The point is that those are all the defining characteristics of capitalism and Nazi Germany retained them all. It was capitalist, even if the free market was restrained.

>>132848721
No, as mentioned above, they kept pretty much all of them.

>>132848834
>socialism is when the government spends money on stuff

Retard-tier understanding.

>>132848337
>even if someone profits off of it you are getting paid what it is worth.

funny, people working full time at walmart still have to apply for food stamps and are actually eligible for them. not to mention, the for profit health care system is still completely fucked up beyond belief

>>132849020
Socialism implies raising taxes, or to the other extent workers owning the means of production which is a pure myth when look at the morals of people, in both ways its a retarded system.

>>132835254
>>132836084
After reading this thread I think it's unbelievable how calmly and clearly you've been able to explain rational leftist views under all these obviously accusational questions.

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>>132848721
>They undoubtedly stopped any Jewish influence on the economic/financial system
no they didn't. wealthy jews were all well and good in the reich, the jewish workers took the brunt of any anti-jewish policy. The economy relied on international finance capital and jewish money.
>As I said the capital served the people and not the people the capital
not true at all, the interests of of capital are antithetical to that of the workers. 'the people' is just a way of covering up that the german workers were all the more subdued to the interests of the profit of corporate oligarchs and plutocrats who lined hitler's pockets
>they lacked essential characteristics of capitalism
private ownership of property.. heil'd
capital accumulation... heil'd
operation for profit... heil'd
wage labour... heil'd
the state... heil'd
wew, sure is non-capitalist in here
>system worked incredibly well
so well in fact that their fraud money necessitated incessant expansion and conquest of natural resources to keep things afloat because otherwise the economy was in freefall

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>>132848978
So are you saying capitalism isn't all bad and what matters is taking the Jew way from any system? Because you can't convince me Hitler Germany didn't work.

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>>132848549
>Fuck off faggot, NatSoc is the system that works best and its been proven in practice by Hitler himself
>Hitler himself
I sure hope you're just memeing. Have a nice day!

>>132833212
>We've already reached a point in human development where we can provide the material conditions necessary for a dignified standard of living to every last human
But you want it destroyed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

>>132841087
You can't just go out and start a business(in most industries) because of cronyist regulations. Musicians and artists open new businesses every day.

>>132849207
>so well in fact that their fraud money necessitated incessant expansion and conquest of natural resources to keep things afloat because otherwise the economy was in freefall
Haha, yes, and the Holocaust also happened.

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>>132849142
>socialism means whatever I want it to mean and surprise surprise, it sucks

>>132833212
>We've already reached a point in human development where we can provide the material conditions necessary for a dignified standard of living to every last human on the planet

if you give this to them they fart out 20 kids who in turn fart out 20 kids a piece and start complaining all over again because resources are suddenly more scarce again.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBqjZ0KZCa0

>>132849428
not real socialism though

>>132848318
>muh Yuri Bezmenov

I want to see the memos circulated through the Politburo and other organs of government in Communist countries that say 'lol socialism's never work man we sure got those proles tricked huh'.

>>132849214
>So are you saying capitalism isn't all bad and what matters is taking the Jew way from any system?

Where did I say anything even remotely like this? All I said was that Nazi Germany retained all essential features of capitalism and thus can't be considered non-capitalist in any meaningful way. I'm not making any value judgments on whether it was 'good' or 'bad'.

>Because you can't convince me Hitler Germany didn't work.

When your ideology leads you to start retarded wars (inb4 the allies started the war by not sitting back while the Reich annexed every piece of land in Europe with a German on it) with half the planet that end with your country burned to the ground and a red flag flying over Berlin, I'm going to say Hitler's Germany didn't work out that well.

>>132849142

Neither of those things actually. It implies the end of commodity production/production the abolition of the value form (no more trade: things will be produced for use).

>or to the other extent workers owning the means of production which is a pure myth when look at the morals of people

Socialism is not based on altruism. The opposite. It's in the self interest of the laborer to abolish capitalism.

>>132849428
>he implies that socialism doesnt mean that the workers own the means of production
ok instead of shitposting you fucking communist retard how about you define your definition of communism and then explain the merits over capitalism

how do capitalists defend the real estate industry when it's a limited resource? what's to stop a handful of billionaires from buying it all up in the best locations and renting it out to the rest of us wagecucks at exorbitant prices until we die? what hope do the rest of us have that don't have granddaddies who benefited from the communist homestead act?

>>132849541
you do realise that market socialism and non-market socialism are two kinds of socialism. Both are equally flawed tho.

>>132849596
It is as you said in the greentext, but idk why you immediately declared it a myth so you can dismiss it.

>>132849718
No one owns land anymore the state gets paid in taxes.

>>132849066
Ok?

>>132849733

Market '''''socialism''''' is just cooperatively owned capitalism and addresses none of its fundamental problems.

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>>132849541
The Wars were exactly to cripple Germany. Germany invaded Poland only after the Soviets broke the non-aggressive pact. Germany invaded Poland because they refused to give back their things lost in WW1. The genocided Poles were all genocided by the Soviets in the Soviet captured part of Poland(Katyn Massacre), later blamed on Germany. Hitler would constantly beg for piece with the British but they never gave it.
>Hitler started the war.
Every time. Actually learn the history.

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>>132849822
Cause people are morally flawed and greedy, thus making public, collective or cooperative ownership all almost impossible to use. You can also see in the economic growth the superiority of capitalism

>>132849207
What international finances did the Third Reich rely on?

>>132849885
someone working 40 hours a week is not earning enough income to meet their basic needs for survival. that corporation is getting tax payers to pay what that worker's income should be.

>>132849902
Can you explain why non-market socialism would be beneficial for the livings of people(take in account all classes)

I think poverty and its symptoms are a moral evil that must be destroyed

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>>132850031
>it is another Marxist-Leninist country automatically means the workers owns the means of production
Not even considering the fact that Canada and USA were the only countries to come out of WW2 with its industry relatively intact whereas USSR and its client state were not so fortunate
>muh human nature
spooky

>>132850095
But that's government handing out money, therefore socialism. Likewise, government keeping banks from falling by giving them money is also socialism. Very simple stuff.

>>132850095
>Should
While it'd be cool if you could live your entire life comfortably working at Walmart and a low salary sucks, you have no right to say what a salary "should" be unless you're doing the hiring.

>>132850258
>>muh human nature
>spooky
>muh lets deny facts

/Pol/ is race aware but not class aware.
/LeftyPol/ is class aware but not race aware.
Both of these boards have 1 part of a 2 part equation.

>>132850258
You can say that in yugoslavia people owned the means of production, it is common sense why capitalism boosts economic growth.
Why do you think that socialism never occurred in ancient history, its cause a hierarchical state is in human nature in almost all of the cases of ancient countries.

>>132833212
Have you every worked a government job or known someone who does? Their mantra is literally never do more than asked of you otherwise you've fucked yourself over. There is a reason it's so goddamn inefficient and that private business is efficient. When people are guaranteed a wage, never fired unless then seriously mega fucked up, and also guaranteed wage increases, benefits and amazing retirement for doing the absolute bare minimum, nothing gets done.

>>132849989
>Germany invaded Poland only after the Soviets broke the non-aggressive pact.

What?

Half the point of the non-aggression pact was to split Poland between NS Germany and the USSR. The two countries maintained cordial relations from the invasion of Poland to the Nazi invasion of the Soviet Invasion.

This

>Germany invaded Poland only after the Soviets broke the non-aggressive pact.

Makes no sense.

>Germany invaded Poland because they refused to give back their things lost in WW1.

The world sucked Nazi cock for years and let NS Germany have the Sudetenland and remilitarize the Rhineland as break treaty after treaty, but when the Allies FINALLY put their collective foot down after Poland, it's: OH THOSE POOR GERMANS OH THE ALLIES ARE SO EVIL HOW DARE THEY.

> Germany invaded Poland because they refused to give back their things lost in WW1.

And Germany was responsible for turning WWI into the continental meat grinder of a war it became. Losing the Danzig Corridor was a fucking slap on the wrist.

>The genocided Poles were all genocided by the Soviets in the Soviet captured part of Poland(Katyn Massacre), later blamed on Germany.

The Katyn Massacre targeted Poland's officer corps. That doesn't account for the hundreds of thousands of other Poles that died under Nazi occupation. But no, Nazis dindu nuffin it was all poland's fault for not giving back the land.

>Hitler would constantly beg for piece with the British but they never gave it.

>hey man just let me dominate Europe what's your problem why are you such a damn warmonger

>>132832675
>Why do you care?
I'm poor

>Are you personally poor?
Yes

>If so, why? If you're living in a first world country, what's your excuse?
Yes. Wage labor.

>If you hate being a wage slave, why haven't you started your own business?
It costs a lot. My wage can afford rent, internet. I'll be 40 years old until I can fund my first business and even then I'm gambling, if I lose the small business gamble I lose hard and it's over my children will hopefully make it, etc.

>If you want to be an anarchist, why not just go live innawoods away from it all? No one's going to stop you.
It has a huge cost. Resources are needed to sustain, people is needed to sustain.
I'm going to fuck off to a commune right when I find a decent one. Fuck this state.

>>132848837
>Must we get on the topic of race?
what does race have to do with the class war? you think the rich care what color of skin it is that's wage slaving for them or buying their useless shit?

>>132850391
Race is a red herring meant to keep the pedes and SJW distracted

>>132849718

Competition.

And if you have to pay property tax, you don't really own the property. We could as a people vote for 10000% property tax and many of them won't be able to pay that so the government takes the land back. So people who think they own property really don't, they're just renting from the government.

>>132850548
Bulltshit faggot, while Rome, Athens, and Greece where thriving and there was no African slave trade Africa was still a shithole, fuck you and your lies.

>>132833663
>>Even if you have a six figure salary and a comfortable NYC apartment, that doesn't change the fact that most of your time is spent doing something you don't have to
>Wrong. If you have a six figure salary you can pretty much live however the fuck you want.
This depends greatly on where you live, and in NYC or the greater area it won't do you much good. In the south and midwest rural areas you can make 50k/year and live like a goddamn king with plenty of family time. But generally I blame people for not moving not matter their wealth, because you can literally pick up and move to any city with a greyhound ticket and stay at a homeless shelter until you make arrangements if shit is that bad. My bills are $1500/month in a nice HOA with amenities and low cost of living in general. People spend like 5k/month just on a decent roomy apartment with a few bedrooms in NYC.

>>132850497
The pact was for non-expansion. It was already broken.
>>132850540
Because the example you gave are of niggers and spic nature, lazy and unwilling to work individual, contributing nothing to society whiles taking away from it. Whites don't tend to live in poverty on their own merits.

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>>132850339
>your worker would literally starve to death without government gibs
>absolutely nothing wrong with that
>but wait, it also proves the labour theory of value is bunk
peak capitalism m80.

>>132850031
Sure, people are greedy. They're also cooperative. There's no reason to assume one of those traits is more representative of REAL human nature than the other.


>>132850176
It would mean the distribution of resources according to need and not the whims of the market. The abolition of value would mean capital could not be accumulated, and thus there is no opportunity for another class of bourgeoisie who hold a monopoly over production to arise.

>take in account all classes

It wouldn't be beneficial for the capitalist class. The capitalist class would cease to exist. That's the point.

It's like me asking you "Can you explain why non-fascism would be beneficial for the livings of people(take in account all races)"

>>132850442
>yugoslavia people owned the means of production
No you can't? I mean they were moving towards it but no.

>Why do you think that socialism never occurred in ancient history
>Not knowing that socialism can only come after capitalism, which in turned could only come from feudalism
Which brings back to what Lenin wanted to do. Bypass or accelerate the capitalism stage in Russia (and in turn Eastern Europe) straight to socialism. The only countries then even capable of transitioning were West Europe and North America
The fact that you don't even know what socialists want or what socialism is yet willing to offer your hot opinions on is quite sad

>>132850442
>cause a hierarchical state is in human nature in almost all of the cases of ancient countries.

States have existed for a fraction of human history.

>>132850568
>>132849827
>muh taxes
congress has a constitutional power to tax whatever they want, you really have no basis to complain about taxes. not to mention, the increasing share of wealth to the 1% essentially renders those taxes negligible. they make hand over fist in income than they can even imagine spending in a life time, property taxes mean jack shit. they can still buy massive amounts of land and charge the shit out of wagecucks to make more than the difference

>>132850843
Yeah cuz most of it was buttfucking cavemen and uncivilized barbarians you retard.

>>132850668
Oh you're totally right sweetie, the success of Greece while subharan Africa languished was 100% genetic

>>132850738
>The pact was for non-expansion. It was already broken.

The fuck are you talking about. Nazi Germany invaded Poland before the USSR. The pact outlined German and Soviet 'spheres of influence' in Eastern Europe. That was the whole point.

USSR and NS Germany maintained cordial relations for two years after the destruction of Poland, so obviously neither of them considered the pact 'broken'.

>>132850843
So? That still makes extensive hierarchy an aberration in human history, not a norm.

>>132851098
Meant to respond to >>132850926

>>132850967
Read Darwin and Muslim Evolution scholars faggot, and saying sweetie like a condescending girl makes you even more of a self absorbed piece of deluded shit.

>>132832675
I was a poor lad until my early 40's. Born and raised as a trash proletarien. I have never been impressed by socialists. It's all bullshit. It's all about them trying to create a platform for themselves, while imagining that poor people are stupid and hence easy to fool. Socialists are extreme egoists and socialism is the path to fascism.

>>132832675
Leftypol is just a meme. See? I can be a flaggot too.

>>132850782
Sure people have to cooperate, but not in the way your describing
Why would people be happy with a system where someone takes my hard earned work from me, I for one see the whole middle class suffering from that. You can't base your argument on "REEEE RICH PEOPLE NEED TO STOP BEING RICH", cause the quality of life would go town a ton, simply cause of the fact that people prefer to live of their own work(except if they are the ones getting the money)
>>132850783
>Why do you think that socialism never occurred in ancient history
>starts talking about the history of the 20th century
>>132850843
1st of all states have existed for the large fraction of human history
2nd of all, hierarchy was still present in pre-state communities.

>>132851255
>socialism is the path to fascism.

I'm glad someone's finally said something that everyone in this thread can agree is retarded.

>>132851098
>We hate improvement and evolution the post

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>>132840310
Wrong. Goyim exist only to serve Jews as slaves. Goyim were only born to serve us. Without that they have no place in the world. Only to serve the people of Israel. Why are gentiles needed? They are only here to work. They will work, they will plow. They will reap. We will sit like effendi and eat. That is why gentiles were created.

>>132851316
it is a tool of dominating an entire people
see: every time in history

>>132851226
Explain the dark ages and the renaissance then faggot. Did your pure Aryan genes take a thousand year break? Oh wait no, culture and ideas are more important than genes.

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>>132847484
>I'm not a Nationalsozialistische, but a National Socialist

>>132851303
>Why do you think that socialism never occurred in ancient history
Coz dumbass, socialists think and have already stated so many times that feudalism will shift to capitalism which will in turn shift to socialism so of course socialism can't happen in ancient history. To ask this question unironically just shows that your resistance to socialism is based on your ignorance of it

>>132851303
>that people prefer to live of their own work

Didn't you just say people are inherently greedy and will just mooch given the chance.

>1st of all states have existed for the large fraction of human history

Humanity has existed for hundreds of thousands of years. Not much that could be termed a 'state' has existed prior to say 6000 or so years ago.

>2nd of all, hierarchy was still present in pre-state communities.
Sure but it wasn't the stratified, extreme hierarchy that characterizes later states. It's well established that relatively egalitarian social relations are fairly common among hunter gatherers.

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>>132851255
>Socialists are extreme egoists
Aw fuck, THE GOYIM KNOW, SHUT IT DOWN

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>>132850738
>Whites don't tend to live in poverty on their own merits.
t. middle amerikkka trump supporter

don't kid yourself, buddy. your shitty data entry job will be automated in a handful of years, if not outsourced to a developing country willing to take pennies on the dollar. you, too, will soon be a useless nigger mexican who doesn't produce anything who should be doomed to extinction because our corporate masters have all the incentive and resources to cut jobs and wages to everyone else below them

>>132851464
> t. Civic nationalist.
Wir warren konige und scheibe.

>>132851621
you cant even look at a flag

>>132851457
No more than any other form of government. Government is a tool of domination. That's the whole point.

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holy shit I'm starting to worry much of the far right are just as delusional as commies. Equally as easy to manipulate if this thread is anything to go on

>>132851464
Thats retarded christcucks you retard, everyone hates them, but now you leftists sound like them with your bullshit of love and equality

>>132851726
So you are just anarchists? Because that even sadder.

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>>132851761
You're just being forced to question your own values. Now go read Stirner.

>>132851389
I can't imagine such a gross lack of struggle to survive over so many generations can produce good offspring??

>>132850339
>you have no right to say what a salary "should" be unless you're doing the hiring.
wrong. meme corporations into people as much as you want, they aren't exactly people and are subject to much harsher regulation. the only thing stopping corporations from paying a living wage is the lack of political will to do it. obamacare already regulates health insurance industry into certain percentage profits, you dolt

>>132851823
A stateless society would be the ultimate goal, ideally.

A dictatorship of the proletariat in which the state is used to suppress class enemies and guard the revolution would be an immediate necessity during the revolution itself.

>>132851316
>retard projecting his retardness

The least common denominator of all forms of socialism is the idea of materialistic equality: everyone should have the same living standard regardless of how they behave or what choices they make.

The problem is that people ARE different; they have formed different values and choose differently because they have different experiences in life. That is a fundamental problem for socialism.

So to implement socialism you need to make sure that:
1. People are the same, i.e. murder everyone who stands out as original or sterilise them if you think it's something genetical.
2. Remove freedom so that noone can choose for themselves.
3. Remove justice so that no matter how you choose, you end up the same as everyone else.

The nazis understood this and did all of it.

Take this to it's logical end point, and you end up with fascism or national socialism.

Socialistic 'justice' applied would be that whenever a crime is committed, we all share the punishment equally and solidarically. THAT is retarded.

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Dear leftists:

Do you support this or think it's a good idea? What do you think the ultimate consequence of this policy will be?

>>132851464
>implying there wasnt any progress in the dark ages and the renaissance
>>132851569
In what way will capitalism shift to socialism, there's literally no proof of that. If a state is working properly it wont probably change.
>>132851594
My bad i thought states instead of community.
My point is from the start they keep moving on to better ideas, they arent born with hierarchy but they learn it.

>>132851641
Pardon me, your plan of deporting 150 million nonwhites is not only feasible but the best course of action

>>132835712
High school math teacher talking about marketing, consulting and other fields that require a higher IQ than yours to perform. "Don't contribute directly to society therefore are worthless".

If you can't see value in something, doesn't mean value doesn't exist. It means you don't have the mental capacity to see it.

>High school math teacher

If you can do, teach - is a saying for fuckwits like you

>>132852027
>If a state is working properly it won't probably change.
I'm glad we agree on something!

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It's pretty simple really. The constant development of productive forces (capital) under capitalism (which is one of the better aspects of capitalism as a mode of production) also constantly reduces the socially necessary labor time. Think of mechanization, automation, technological development in general etc.
What % of the population has to farm nowadays to support the rest? What was this % a 100 years ago? A 1000 years ago?
Think of all the service jobs which are dull and worth nothing, like advertising. There is potential to restructure society so that the working week is like 15-20 hours, and we make sure that we automate more and more so that this labor time keeps going down. Not having to work is a pipe dream, but I'll be damned if we're not gonna try and get as close as possible.

See pic related. Automation under capitalism doesn't lead to reduced working hours.

>>132851997
The least common denominator of all forms of socialism is the idea of materialistic equality: everyone should have the same living standard regardless of how they behave or what choices they make.

Completely wrong of course. Lenin addressed liberals spouting this nonsense a hundred years ago:

https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1914/mar/11.htm

>>132852019
I don't really care. What does this have to do with the abolition of capital?

>>132852027

>they arent born with hierarchy but they learn it.

Then were you wrong when you said this?:

>its cause a hierarchical state is in human nature in almost all of the cases of ancient countries.

in >>132850442

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>>132840667


>pic related

All commies don't understand the basics of the system they are trying to implement and how it will affect the world even though it has been documented several times.

>>132852368
I'm going to be part of the toothbrush confiscation unit when the revolution comes.

>>132852368
>going out of business sale
Why are you unable to perceive a world beyond the inefficiencies of markets and money? That pic is simply dystopian capitalism.

>>132852353
I meant born as a civilization not as literally born

I am sort of poor although much better than someone in a third world country. I work and struggle and get enough just to get by. I have found myself moving to the left over the last couple years.

Why do I care?
When I was a kid I grew up in a happy family with parents who worked and made decent money. Eventually my father got cancer and passed away and it was just me and my mum. I remember people saying they would be there for us but at the end of the day no one really was. I remember seeing my friends and the other kids at school with their complete families and how they barely appreciated it. I grew up jaded and angry and it seemed everyone was busy getting their's. I have some good friends and am close with my mum but I always had this resentment towards other people who seemed to have it so easy and to the fact that no one seems to really care. I guess that is why I care about the left. Because I want people to care about and appreciate others. The way it is now makes me feel so empty. So much of the world around me is so selfish and shallow. I don't just want to go into the woods because I know I won't survive there and that it will be horrible.

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>>132852019
Driving the wages down, causing cultural clashes, therefore driving hate for the shitskin and support for more bombd dropped onto the middle east, more dictators overthrown (for some unclear reason) right at the moment they decided that don't like petrodollar, more power holes left to occupy by violent radicals, more terrorism in Europe, more opportunity for surveillance, more white guilt, more refugees, driving the wages down...

Just like the capitalists wanted. Sorry, I meant socialists, of course. I've no idea how the owners of means of production could possibly benefit from such an awful situation.

>>132851997
>The least common denominator of all forms of socialism is the idea of materialistic equality: everyone should have the same living standard regardless of how they behave or what choices they make.

you're jumping to conclusions there, boyo. socialism is used to give everyone a basic standard of living, no matter who you were born to. this doesn't force rich boy trump to go to public school, the rich will always have the option of private schools because the rich don't want to mix with the riff raff and are willing and able to pay for it. private schools are a shit heap to the poor people, so a public funded school is the better alternative. long story short, the majority of a population is poor and benefits more from socialism than the rich, who are a handful minority, do. not to mention, the public option is still there for the rich to fall back on should they go unemployed

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>>132841721
>>132841730
>>132841886
>>132841999
>>132842494

>>132852469
>Venezuela and the USSR were dystopian capitalism

Really gets my hammer sickled

>>132852552

What? You think Latvia is likely to attempt imperial excursions in the middle east?

>>132852491
Okay, so we're basically agreeing. The evolution in economic and social relations that gave rise to modern civilization also created fiercely rigid hierarchies and state power. It's not necessarily written into our genetic code (though of course there will almost certainly always be leaders of some kind, they need not be all powerful chiefs/kings).

>want to start a buisness
>have no money
>gotta pay a jew for a loan to start?
>end up owing jew three times over

How exactly does this work?

>>132852432
>I'm going to be part of the toothbrush confiscation unit when the revolution comes.

No you're going into the gulags with the rest of the champagne proletariat.

>>132852469
>Why are you unable to perceive a world beyond the inefficiencies of markets and money?

Because human beings are different and have different needs at different times that can't be planned for - hence market value and why planned economies lead to starvation.

Also because I live in the world. Not in my head.

>>132852353
Lenin was a bafoon. His idiotic ideas made hundreds of ukrainians starve to death on the most fertile soil in Europe. Lenin is dead. You are now worshipping his shadow.

And still, socialism is all about materialistic equality. Not equality before the law. It's not about justice, but all about implementing injustice. And it is the path to serfdom and fascism.

>>132851963
Thats impossible, local communities naturally develop their own states. Geographical differences will always create differences in people.

>>132852742

>Tabula Rasa theory

>In 2017

hahahahahahahahhahahahahaha

>>132852742
I think that they should have power, but they must be likable then, take hitler and mussolini for example

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>>132852079
Typical arrogant dipshit undereducated Aussie

>>132852742
I think its natural but it took a while to make it a reality

>>132852560
>doesn't force rich boy trump to go to public school

Oh yes they do exactly that in socialistic countries. Recently, the socialists over here have even seriously suggested that pupils should be placed out in various schools within the same town by lottery, to 'solve' the problem with dysfunctional schools in immigrant ghettos.

>>132832675
>Why do you care? >inb4 deflection
NOT AN ARGUMENT LUHL
seriously though, care about what?
>Are you personally poor?
Very, yet I live in US so I'm not.
>If so, why? If you're living in a first world country, what's your excuse?
You can be poor in US and live a fine life. I'm contemplating getting a cabin in the woods, raising my own food, hunting, doing it all. What's the point of the rat race any how.
>If you hate being a wage slave, why haven't you started your own business?
Because making money for the purpose of making money makes me cringe. If I finally find something I need to sell people as strongly as I believe in it I will certainly do so.
>If you want to be an anarchist, why not just go live innawoods away from it all? No one's going to stop you.
Ok cool

>If you're poor and you're living in a third-world country, I get it. If you're NazBol and you believe in spooks, I get it. Otherwise, why do you give a fuck?
Why haven't I killed myself yet? Good Question.

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>>132852759
>No you're going into the gulags
Promise?

>>132852795
>MUH FORTY KAZILLION UKRAINIANS

It doesn't matter for the sake of this discussion if Lenin was literally the stupidest person who ever lived. Did you even read the link which addresses exactly the retarded liberal assertion that socialism means making everyone exactly the same? Because it doesn't, and never has, no matter how many times you say it.

>And it is the path to serfdom and fascism.

Fascism arose as a reaction to socialism, to protect terrified middle and upper class people from what they perceived as a tide of Bolshevism. Fascism and communism have fundamentally contradictory goals and practices. They are mortal enemies, and were recognized as such in their heyday. Only now that both schools of thought are sufficiently discredited by the post-war liberal democratic world consensus does anyone try to do anything so stupid as to equate them.

>>132852709
I thought you were asking about refugee gibs in general. I don't give a shit about Latvia to be quite honest. I however do know that Poland wouldn't often pass an opportunity to lick USA'a butthole.

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>>132832675
Has /pol/ always been infested with this much filth?

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>>132853058
>Fascism arose as a reaction to socialism
It's the same shit.

>>132832675
>communist
>personally poor
Comrade, most of us are rich kids with rich parents. Not everyone can be a proletarian like you sad disgusting redneck.

We fight for wealth equality to make sure that rich fucks, like our degenerate parents, die in the fucking gulags.

#WealthEquality
#DeathToTheRich
#WhyDidDaddyNeverSpendTimeWithMe

>>132852860
>Trying to explain the historical rise of states through material terms (which is not the same as pretending genetics play no role) instead of just throwing one's hands up and yelling "IT'S HUMAN NATURE" is advocating tabula rasa

>>132852823
At least in Marxist terms, a government and a state are not identical. A state is a tool used by one class for the suppression and domination of another (or others). A government is societal organization and can exist without being a state (again, in the Marxist sense). I'm sure there would be many governments scattered across the world under communism (though preferably joined into a greater federation), but not states.

>>132853034

I can't promise you won't die when working class regressives like myself who have actually studied Marxism and despise you infiltrate your movements at the height of revolution and use them to act out old grudges (really that is the point of revolutions anyway).

I can walk the walk and talk the talk when it comes to Marx better than you, lumpen.

>>132853251
You saying that over and over doesn't make it true.

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>>132853349
I think you're putting a lot of words in my mouth over a sarcastic joke.

>>132853058
>mortal enemies
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov%E2%80%93Ribbentrop_Pact

>>132853306

Epigenetics are real dude. Hierarchies are observable everywhere in nature, in all primates and even in ant colonies, which Marx once postulated was a good working model of socialism in nature.

The base can change but the superstructure will always re-manifest itself, just with different faces.

>>132852581
>memezuela
Literally any west European country has
1. a lower degree of socio-economic inequality (GINI index)
2. a higher degree of state ownership (nationalization)

>>132853306
So its impossible, got it. What you say doesn't refute my previous point. Also a global federation is impossible to hold because it impossible to stop these changes on local levels. You would need to destroy thousands of years of culture all across the globe just so people can be equal and even then in less than 30 years people will start to change again. Also race is a thing. Don't tell a wolf is the same as a fox.

>>132853499

When the time comes, me and my new bestie Tyrone will be putting a bullet there.

>>132853672
Please do

>>132853371
I have explained how socialism leads to fascism, and I have seen it first hand. Friedrich Hayek explained it in in much greater detail than what this forum form can practically allow.

It is of no importance what Lenin wrote as the bottom line is that all he achieved was a disaster. It simply doesn't work, at all.

>>132853655
>Also a global federation is impossible to hold because it impossible to stop these changes on local levels. You would need to destroy thousands of years of culture all across the globe just so people can be equal and even then in less than 30 years people will start to change again.

no you don't. the freedom of information allows people to communicate almost instantaneously from opposite sides of the globe. all trends are pointing to a 1 race, 1 culture world because of the internet. everyone in the world uses smart phones to do the same mundane shit of posting on twitter or watching twitch. societal traditions are being exposed for the bullshit they are and going away with time. conservative ideology and the capitalist system essentially serve to hold back progress and milk the system while it can. i'm sure the proles will embrace the virtues of capitalism when 99% of jobs are automated

>>132853547
Yes, there was a temporary uneasy peace as each prepared for the war they knew was coming.

Of course, from the USSR's perspective this was only a last resort after all efforts to form an anti-fascist front with the western 'democracies' (who preferred to bend over for the Nazis) failed.

>>132853608
Leadership of some sort will always have to exist, but that doesn't necessary mean dictators and tyrants.

>>132853655
Everyone doesn't have to be exactly equal in every way. As long as capitalist social and economic relations are abolished. I'm not sure why cultural differences mean a federation is impossible to maintain. Societies have and do hold together despite regional differences.

>>132853800
>all he achieved was a disaster

>eradication of illiteracy
>rise in living standards
>first man into space
>majority of Russians miss the USSR

What a disaster.

>>132853800
> Hayek
> a discredited economist
> explained how socialism led to fascism
> despite never having talked about social movements, only minute economic shifts in capitalism
> ok m80

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>>132854083
pic related
>>132854195
Because without enforcement this differences will conflict and the bigger place, the bigger the differences, the bigger the conflict. Suppression of this conflict will invite resistance and with the same logic the resistance grows larger to the point of war which will result in the splitting of factions or genocide of said factions.

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>>132854222
>Karl Marx
>Never actually worked
>Creates an ideology about the working people

>>132854195
>soviet union collapsed
>united russia, a capitalist party, gets a substantial majority of the vote every election
>eastern europe forever turned off from communism
>china abandoned communism
Yeah, a disaster.
First man into space means shit when the US practically owns space now.

>>132854195
>Leadership of some sort will always have to exist, but that doesn't necessary mean dictators and tyrants.

If you actually observe history you will note that dictators and tyrants emerge from crisis - not rich and powerful individuals deciding one day "I want to be a tyrant". All the communist society will have to do is ensure their society never enters a crisis from internal or external forces and plan out all of their labour, needs and desires correctly without producing any excess (which could lead to capitalism)and they're fine....lol

Here's a tip - capitalism will ALWAYS yield corporatism which is depressing and demoralizing - but socialism or "dictatorship of the proletariat" will never EVER yield Communism.

Corporatism is much easier to live in anyway, if you, like me, prefer food on the regular.

I've learned to live with the cultural degradation and destruction of religion that has accompanied it - but Communists believe those things which give me comfort are contrivances are alienations, anyway.

>>132854625

>Karl Marx
>Never actually worked

Stop saying this. It isn't true and only works on boomers.

He was a prolific writer, philosopher, journalist and editor. He just couldn't find a market for his skills (ironically) until years later when bourgeois academic socialists picked up his works and misinterpreted them to prove how smart they were to other bourgeois academic socialists.