modern monetary theory

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>>132109757
Is deficit a good thing?

No. No. And no. Read your Austrians. At least start here:

https://fee.org/resources/the-essential-f-a-hayek/

>>132109757
>>132110212
no
accounting is not economics
accountants should read economics before fucking around with it from an accounting perspective
they don't understand that exchanges create mutual increases in realized value. (if they didn't, why would people bother to exchange?)

>>132111541
to get something that they don't have?

>>132110212
That picture reads like bullshit.

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>>132109757
HHHHHUUUUUUURRRRRRRRR
DDDDDDDUUUUUUUUURRRRRRRRR

IIIIIIIII'MMMMMMM AAAAAAA K K K
KKKKKKKKKKKKKKEYNESIANNNN

HURRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

JUST PRINT MOR MONAY ND EVERYTING WERKSS HURRRRRRRRRRRRRR

>>132112548
http://www.pragcap.com/yes-government-deficits-equal-private-surpluses/

>>132112904
why not?

>>132112904
what are you supposed to do when you run out retard

>>132112267
so, to benefit? so if one person benefits, but the other doesn't, it doesn't happen, right? so two entities benefitting? mutually?

do you speak english natively?

>>132115832
Run out of what?

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>>132115676

>>132116137
money

>>132116155
>jews started a revolution in germany!
>it didn't work but it almost did! so later jews wrecked the german economy! they had it coming! let's not specify precisely how they did that!
>ahem we need to inflate the currency that worked for hitler, only reason he lost is other countries inflated even more, harumph

>>132115676
>>132115832
>what is velocity
Monetarists are retarded, they use the equation

MV = PQ,

where M is monetary supply, V is velocity of money, Q is nominal GDP and P is an inflator/deflator adjustor to the GDP. But in their utter retardedness they assume that V is constant at all times and that P = 1 such that there is never any net inflation or deflation. Their models are plain wrong and when mixed with Keynesian bullshit they give us the mess we are in today.

>>132116386
actually where they're retarded is that they assume V even exists. it doesn't.

>>132116251
What are you 12?

>>132116546
what?
how can velocity not exist?

To whom do we owe our debt and what can they do against the strongest nation on Earth? If they do anything, they shoot themselves in the foot as our economy has its tentacles in every other economy of the world. The US has the world by the balls and because of that we can break the rules.

For every dollar borrowed 6 cents is owed. If we borrow only 1 dollar and we have no other money, we have to borrow that 6 cents as well, thus perpetuating our debt. Our entire system is set up around debt

Debt is meaningless and only effects small countries / countries that aren't the US.

As long as people continue to work, the debt means nothing.

>>132109757
we could always try to perfect planned production

>>132116922
it's not that "velocity" doesn't exist. money can have velocity. it just cannot be a mathematically relevant quantity in that equation because of M.

the money supply directly influences the purchasing power of money in the most absolute, fundamental way, by setting the ratio of goods {A, B, C, ...} to the money good, G. if you have amounts 10, 100, 1000 and amount 5, then you have fundamental ratios 2, 20, 200, etc.

something made up called "money velocity" can never change that, because this relationship is "position-independent." fundamentally, and keeping within the context of their metaphorical language of course, the purchasing power of money is in "superposition."

purchasing power and velocity are not and will never be related.

>>132109757
Of course it isn't a meme. How unbearably stupid and conniving do you have to believe it

>>132117194
i assume you're joking; soviets already proved that doesn't work.

>>132115032
>When the government handles your expenses you can turn up a bigger profit

WOWIE ZOWIE MODERN ECONOMISTS ARE SOPHISTS

>>132117362
velocity and money supply are closely related and almost the same thing. If somebody keeps loads of money and never spends it, we say that reduces velocity. This has the exact same effect as the money not existing at all, so the ratios you talk about will be affected in the same way. The only unfortunate difference is that low money circulation due to low velocity can very rapidly inflate unlike low money circulation due to low supply which requires a major gov fuckup to inflate at the same rate. So there is a difference and it is relevant imo.

>>132117047
The debt means the taxpayer has to pay loads more money, thats not nothing.

>>132109757
More or less.
But the screeching autists on here refuse to believe it.
The majority of debt is held by the federal reserve which in essence means it doesn't even exist at all, because they can just wipe it from their books if need be and literally nothing happens.

>>132120062
What if all the dollars the dollars they created come home at the same time?

If United States ignores their obligations to their creditors it will cause inflation and everything that isn't nailed down will be emptied off the shelves

>>132120983
But that's not how bonds work friendo.
Creditors can't just go "GIMME MY MONEY". The debtor can agree to pay back debt early at certain terms, but the creditor can never demand the money back unless the debtor becomes illiquid.

>>132109757
Yes, nobody actually cares about how trustworthy a country is in terms of how likely they are to get their money back. People like doing shit without receiving any form of compensation.

>>132109757
>>>/biz/2677413

>>132121117
But that is how currencies work senpapi.

Everyone is just dreaming the same dream. As soon as people don't want dollars all of them all over the world are coming home at the same time.

Look out

it is... until it isn't
The elite will run us into the ground, and there isn't much we can do about it, because banks print money.

>>132112904
The real reason we were taken off the (((Gold Standard))) is so that we could be put on the (((Oil Standard))), otherwise known as the Petrodollar. Our alliance with Saudi Arabia dictates that Middle East oil has to be traded in dollars.

This alliance allows us to print money and shove it overseas, something no other nation can do. It's what lets us have reserve currency status, and allows us to control the world through the dollar. If countries want a drop of oil, they'll have to play ball and do whatever it takes so that bankers will trade dollars with them.

>>132120062
>yes goyim we can just wipe it all away
Then what is even the purpose of the debt, if there are no consequences to getting rid of it?

>>132116920
you cant buy things without money you fucking communist

>>132121767
Pretty much this. It makes me wonder why Russia is pushing to go back on gold. Do they know something everyone else doesn't?

>>132122364
No shit you moron, so don't run out of it.

>>132122407
Check >>132121281 and compare Russian and US debt.

>>132122497
exactly

>>132121400
Yeah but there's no reason to believe that overnight the USD would stop being the world reserve currency. I wrote a paper for one of my economics classes with this exact argument where I cited how the Spanish Silver used to be the world reserve currency and it's long and slow death as it was replaced.
There just does not exist at the moment another currency or country with soft power ties that could rapidly supplant us in that position. So we're fine.
>>132122229
Because there's tons of different types of debt being utilized in tons of different ways.

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>>132109757
>national debt is good
As a very important source of strength and security, cherish public credit. One method of preserving it is to use it as sparingly as possible, avoiding occasions of expense by cultivating peace, but remembering also that timely disbursements to prepare for danger frequently prevent much greater disbursements to repel it, avoiding likewise the accumulation of debt, not only by shunning occasions of expense, but by vigorous exertion in time of peace to discharge the debts which unavoidable wars may have occasioned, not ungenerously throwing upon posterity the burden which we ourselves ought to bear. The execution of these maxims belongs to your representatives, but it is necessary that public opinion should co-operate. To facilitate to them the performance of their duty, it is essential that you should practically bear in mind that towards the payment of debts there must be revenue; that to have revenue there must be taxes; that no taxes can be devised which are not more or less inconvenient and unpleasant; that the intrinsic embarrassment, inseparable from the selection of the proper objects (which is always a choice of difficulties), ought to be a decisive motive for a candid construction of the conduct of the government in making it, and for a spirit of acquiescence in the measures for obtaining revenue, which the public exigencies may at any time dictate.

>>132109757

Yes, national debt is a meme with a fiat currency the nation controls. An accounting trick given undue importance. Trade balance and the level to which you sell out sovereignty to foreign investors and kikes are far more important than debt to GDP.

With good trade balance and sovereignty you can just pile on the debt year after year without consequence, see Japan.

>>132111541
In a free market, the government only job is to make sure the numbers add up, that money accurately represent values. Its resource accounting. People decide what has value and where resources are put. Money just facilitate the organization. Unless your a commie and want the party leader to decide what has value.

Banks and wall streets are the worst offenders to economics. They create no value directly. They only move shit around so that things become more efficient in organization. They generate false resources.

>>132111345

I learn from history.

When niggers monetize it goes wrong, when Aryans and honorary Aryans monetize it goes right.

>>132122229
To account for "borrowed" resources. Basically trust and time.
I lend you a hammer.
You owe me a hammer.
You lose the hammer.
I don't trust you and will never lend you a hammer again.

>>132121596
hurrr what is bitcoin

>>132122993
The simple explanation is Banks and Wall Street are working on the basis of a profit motive.

Not all investments that are of importance in efficiency will return profits for the investor. Therefore when you let the banks and Wall St decide you are allowing them to distort the market to make profit not raise efficiency.

TLDR Profit motive does not always align with the economic investment in efficiency.

>>132109757
>meme
https://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/reports/ir/ir_expense.htm
>2017 Fiscal Year Total Interest Payments by USG: $285,202,076,841.72
We spend almost 300 billion a year on interest payments. the national debt is not a meme.

>>132122852
Washington's administration was a pioneer in purposefully accumulating a national debt though. With all the states waiting on their money from the federal government, the states have a vested interest in the continued existence of that federal government over them, so they can collect on their money.

>>132123596
I would like to think that he was justified considering the revolt he had to put down and the ever real threat of the UK returning.

>>132122933
Listen to you what you are saying. The usa is selling itself out to debt, some for everyone else. When the scheme is over the world will be owned by the plutocrats. Whats going on now is insanity of the highest order.

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leaving this here

still, this is a risky platform and MMTheorists are basically pants on head retarded

>>132111345
Is the austrian school the only non-interventionist?

>>132110212

WTF?

Is trying to say that this is a zero sum game?

Also, from where does it gets the idea that to have goverment surplus the private has to be in deficit or viceversa? And how did it define foreign sector?

>>132124108
We dont print anything. The federal reserve private bankers do. And more the debt we accumulate the more interest we pay for that compounded. The world is getting jewed over fake money. All we need to do is dishonor the USD and print our own debt free flat currency. America is going to break someday as we cant handle all this interest from these private banks.

>>132124108
> implying printing loads of money isn't the same as currency devaluation and would be treated as a de facto default by the markets
> Implying anyone would ever lend to you again

Why does no one get this? This is how Greece used to pay its debt before the Euro. Which is why it was perma junk debt.

>>132123963

Forget about the JewSA for a moment, they a jewish outlier.

The Japanese government doesn't hold up it's hand to plutocrats for a "loan", they just tell the BOJ to give it to them. Fiat money for nothing can work for a government run by people with discipline. Such as Aryans and honorary Aryans.

>>132124108
Yeah but who wants to be repaid with monopoly money?

>>132123420
Woops, it's actually over 400 billion a year now.

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JUST PWINT DA MONAY WIFOUT A DOLARE STANDAWD N INFLASHON DUNTTT EXIST RHUUUURRRRRRR DDDHURRRRRRRRRRR

You may be a conservative.
You may be a liberal.
You may be a republican.
You may be a democrat.

But they're all autistic, filthy mouthed, goy slaves who suck central banking communist tavistock cock and love being willing slaves to their pedophile, drug riddled think tank and federal masters.

>>132124760

Implying a nation with a positive trade balance which didn't sell out it's sovereignty ever needs a foreign loan.

The supposed necessity of foreign loans and investment are a kike scheme. Foreign loans, investment and foreign investor protection are kike shackles to destroy nations.

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>>132125220
KEYNESIANS are not human beings. They are communists.

>>132124977
Of course but the problem with Fiat currency is its easy to overprint and thus devalue. How does japan deal with inflation?

>>132125460
it doesn't. japan is dead. japan and sweden are testing zones for the nwo.

>>132109757
Wtf i love being a slave to debt and money now

wo-ah
woahhhh
wow

>>132124300
>Is the austrian school the only non-interventionist?

Of the big three, i.e. Keynesian, Chicago, Austrian, yes. It basically says, "Economics is the interaction of individuals. Anything we observe -- especially at the macro level -- is emergent behavior which we can only study as a natural phenomenon. Attempts at manipulation can only distort the market and cause it to be less efficient."

>>132125460

They have a shrinking population, that is an inherent deflationary pressures which printing money alleviate. Which is why chicken littles like Zero Hedge who call for creative destruction are so stupidly and consistently wrong.

If Japan had chosen creative destruction they'd have entered a deflationary spiral to rival anything since the great depression. Kikes would have bought their country for pennies on the dollar and they'd be royally fucked, they'd basically have to back out of every trade agreement and the WTO to get ownership of their country back.

Look at a country like New Zealand, they run a trade surplus year after year, but get deeper in debt year after year as well. They let their traitor government give their economy to foreigners for shiny beads. Now they have a mass chink invasion almost impossible to stop.

>>132124760
Greece doesn't have a fuckload of carriers and nuclear missiles, though.

>>132121767

Exactly this.

It was a smart play too. Otherwise you would have dirt farming Africans able to buy chunks of America by panning for gold in the local stream.

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>>132126065

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>>132126974

every time

>>132126974
i can't imagine what it must be like to actually believe in marxist "economics"

>>132110212
Do they think the supplies of goods is unchanging?
Fucking retards, this is what those smug economics major write up, absolutely insane. Yes in a proper economy they would all be running a surplus.

>>132127134
>workers try to get the most money for the labor
>employers try to get the most labor for their money
>their relationship is codependent, but inherently hostile
>people think it's sustainable
I can't imagine what it must be like to actually believe in non-marxist "economics".

>>132126974
Not all value is created by labor

Much value comes from nature.
No one made the land and it's fruits.

>>132125355

Free market socialists. (Yes, this makes sense if you actually think about it)

It's the notion that you have to redistribute to the lowest common denominator to spur economic activity because they will be the ones to spend their money in ways that generate the most economic activity.

The markets exist and decide what to produce. There is no command economy, the means of production are not seized, but it is socialist because product is still redistributed, taking from the haves and given to everyone. (Not just the poor, usually Keynesian initiatives are open to anyone who is willing to spend money.)

>>132127457
A copper deposit has no value until a worker put some labor into it.

>>132127457
well maybe if youre a tribal nigger in africa
even then you need to go gather dirt and make cakes

>>132127565
>I have no knowledge of the uses of copper.

>>132109757

you know why Jews run the world? Because they made you believe the economy is a science, when it isn't any more accurate than astrology.

>>132125253
define foreign loan. If it came from a global investment firm based on wall street would that be foreign? Goverments need debt - it isn't something to be terrified of - neither is it something to be abused

>>132127565
>has no value until a worker put some labor into it.

What do you buy when you buy a mine? The minerals or the people working on it?

>>132109757
America had no debts in colonial days since they printed money to fund the government.

>>132127565
You really need to grow out of this reductionist dialectic materialism bullshit

not everything can be reduced to monetary value and economic interests.

No one made the land or the trees and animals that grow on it, it takes little labor to harvest it.

>>132126169
What japan is doing has been tried in the USA and even way back when we lost the bank to foreign investors. It works for them because they are xenophobic and controlled by the yakuza.

Currently the only option for us is a government backed debt free flat currency. Or we could just stay the course until oil is worthless and say hello to a globalist one world government.

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>>132127761
>buy a mine
>land is a commodity to be bought and sold

>>132127704
this

Jews word tricks again

>>132127704

Not true.

Applied economics is finance. People who are good at finance can consistently make gains.

>>132127861
>deforestation and recycling isn't real
We're all boned.

>>132127761
well both.
you buy the land and the assets to open the mine and the labour to run the mine

>>132127888


Well, rights for exploitation if you prefer.

Although I would concede that property is a goddamn can of philosophical/economical worms that extend to nationalism and every human interaction.

>>132127983
thats because they run the market

>>132127792

Old money was silver certificates backed with metal. There was no money printed without matching silver.

The only additional benefit of the certificate is that it was also enforced by fiat. The certificates had to be accepted by every state for all debts public and private. This way you don't have 13 competing national currencies making interstate trade a goddamn nightmare.

It was otherwise an ancap paradise with each state operating under its own ruleset.

>>132128057

>you buy the land and the assets

I don't have to buy the assets, infrastructure is a plus that increases the value but is not the value itself, after all I'm not interested in roads and workers just in the material that I intend to sell.

>>132128062
You buy labour and you get a lot more exchange value out of that labour.

>>132109757
Ohh god. The Liberal double think is real.

>>132112267
The only way that two informed people will decide to trade is if it's mutually beneficial to them. Zero-sum economics assumes every transaction to be a scam. It's mutually beneficial only if both people value the resource offered by the other party more than what they themselves are offering, trade hinges on value being subjective.

Simple thought experiment: take a fine sheet of cloth. What value does that hold to you? Probably nothing besides from what you can exchange it for. In the hands of a tailor? It holds much more worth.

The value of any resource is contingent on its allocation. This is a fundamental economic assumption, fucking obvious to a 5-year old, and why there is trade. If it wasn't true then each and every transaction would have to be a scam.

>>132127704
Its simple. Jews found out you can steal other peoples wealth by stealing their money in interest and loans. Usury is a sin, never forget it.

>>132127755

Yes, any loan from a multinational is inherently foreign, unnecessary, harmful and kike'ish. As is having multinationals in your country at all.

They should be anathema to any nationalist.

>>132128347
you need digging tools and shit to get at the mineral and then a smelter to separate the ores or smelt the copper into ingots

>>132128413

I buy the explotation rights, not the labour, that might come next or I might bring my own if its cheaper.

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>>132126974
>strawman, the meme

>>132116155
This is from Hungary during the hyperinflation after losing WW2 in 1945.

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>>132128413
yeah that's what an investment is, you fucking retard.

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real communist hours

>>132128551

Thats infrastructure, which thinking about it I don't even have to buy; I can subcontract it or rent it, but the explotation rights I sure have to buy, even if they are temporal or not even complete I need them.

The rest is important but not necessary by itself, I could do it alone and with my own hands if I wanted.

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>>132128866
>people that turn money into more money are a worthwhile part of society
>because they have all the paper bank notes

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>>132128319
That is totally not true, the currencies were not backed by anything. It was the reason why America grew strong. Money printing out of thin air.

>>132129016
either way its labour and land

>>132129057
>I don't like rich people
>so I'll ignore the problem of resource allocation
cut off your nose to spite your face

>>132110212
mmm this reads like accounting trickery, not good fiscal guidelines for a country.

>>132128223

That's just retarded.

If they ran the market they would never let it crash, they wouldn't want to post losses.

Buy low sell high doesn't take a rocket scientist. If you buy guns today they will be worth more when people assume that Trump may lose the presidency some years later.

>>132129057

What about people that live off planing, design and execution? and I'm not talking only about engineers but also lawyers and economists that live off pretty much like investment bankers by optimizing the flow of money(from finding grey zones in government regulations to lending or speculating with capital goods)

Unless you want to say that money has a value that doesn't have to come from a worker hands...

>>132129202
Investors are middlemen and fit the true definition of parasite. For parasites convince their host they are beneficial.

>>132109757
Yes and no.

>>132129291
It is. It's zero-sum economics. A reconstruction of economic theory by some accountant who forgot his introductory economics course.

>>132129142

I'm just saying that the value comes from the thing that is about to be exploited, the rest are factors to be taken into account into the investment but not the investment itself which is what you are implying.

>>132129418
>middlemen
Peddlers are the archetypal middleman. They add value. Investors do too, but in a more abstract way so I can understand why you fail to comprehend how.

>>132129379
Mental labour is proper labour. And never compare an engineer to an economist ever again.

>>132129293
>they would never let it crash
what is shorting the market

>>132129293
Are you mentally disabled?

Buyvlow sell high is called market timing. Literally NO ONE claims to do that.

The current market is obviously insider traded. 90% of gains since 08 have traded within 12 hours of every fed press release.

Dont be a fucking idiot

>>132129671
>they add value
And that's one of the problems with capitalism as a whole.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valorisation

>>132129476
no, labour is part and parcel of the value of a commodity on market exchange

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Yes it is entirely correct and it was the ultimate basis of Natsoc economics

Libertarians don't understand it because they have a bizarre gold fetish

>>132129846
Rhey dont "add" value

1. They use market mechanisms to gove a more accurate picture of value, so that the far can be trimmed

2. It PUNISHES people who are wrong. Which NVER happens in a bureaucracy

Not all defenses of capitalism are accurate, but criticisms of capitalism are wrong 98% of the time

>>132129057
yes, not like that money is then used to create even more businesses and products for people to buy
You seriously are like a 13 year old.

>>132129691

So I guess there is no problem with investment banking then, increasing the capital value temporarily of a certain business to be able to increase the overall value permanently through goods and tools is a distribution tool in which both parts can benefit.

Banks where literally the first social elevators, its people that don't understand the rules of the game that they participated in that end up burning.

>>132129142
>>132129476
You're both mistaken. It doesn't have objective value. Neither the resource, the labor nor the final product have objective value. It's always subjective, which is why you'll see one guy buying a thing and another abstaining from the same. Or in its emergent form on a market level, is determined by supply and demand.

>>132129130

Care to cite any source at all?

Continental currency was a failed experiment that died in 17 years due to rampant inflation. Article 1 of the constitution explicitly prohibited states from making anything other than God or silver coin a payment for anything.

We have otherwise been on a gold standard with silver used as a proxy for gold up utility 1971.

These are the historical facts of the matter. For the brief period we had fiat currency people preferred to trade in postage stamps and coins.

America had no debt because it had no significant government spending. There were no mass social programs and people were left alone.

>>132130083
Sure, if it's just, it's owned by the government, and it's not being run for profit.

>>132130250
just one*

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>>132124300
Libertarians/Austrians are essentially feudalist who want to give all the power of money creation to the banks which are owned by the elite and none to the government, which is owned by the people.

>>132130073
Money is created out of nothing

Banks don't lend out reserves/savings accounts. "Money"and credit have always been numbers on sheets of paper.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-KRi9nF8BiA

This is the key error that goldbug fetishists commit, but refuse to understand

http://www.investopedia.com/articles/investing/022416/why-banks-dont-need-your-money-make-loans.asp

That's why they are always wrong about their "muh gold" predictions.

Just look at every Peter Schiff prediction the last 10 years

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Zh_mjS8bQg

banks don't lend out reserves

gold is just a shiny rock dug out of the ground

money is printed into existence ex nihilo

Everything you think you know about economics is wrong

>>132129891

Again, yes I acknowledge that is part of the equation but only as a multiplier along with quality or infrastructure not part of the investment itself.

Lets see, another example; if I buy a surface to construct a house in there, am I buying the labour too or the construction rights?

>>132128553
>I buy the explotation rights, not the labour, that might come next or I might bring my own if its cheaper.
And what if from the start, the government owned all the land and refused to sell it to private individuals?

>>132129057
Of course the jews setup wallstreet as a means to not only turbo their agenda but have complete control to crash economies as to consolidate power. Investors were once confined to the banks but no they had to mess with corporations. Furthermore another form of investment are lobbyists.

So just so everyone is clear here. A small group of people control.
>The government
>The banks
>The corporations
>Your life

Not saying Marxism is the answer but there are truths in your what you are saying.

>>132130250
My name is stalin. Your farm is too big. Its not fair. Were gonna redistribute the land. Also, hand over your food stores. Also, work harder to feed the other collectivized farms who didnt meet quota. Failure to meet quota is a sign of greedDand will be ounished for the common good.

>>132130132
America went to war so they can print their paper money anon.

Another Currency Act, in 1764, extended the restrictions to the colonies south of New England. Unlike the earlier act, this act did not prohibit the colonies in question from issuing paper money but it forbade them to designate their currency as legal tender for public or private debts. That prohibition created tension between the colonies and the mother country and has sometimes been seen as a contributing factor in the coming of the American Revolution. After much lobbying, Parliament amended the act in 1773, permitting the colonies to issue paper currency as legal tender for public debts.[6] Shortly thereafter, some colonies once again began issuing paper money. When the American Revolutionary War began in 1775, all of the rebel colonies, soon to be independent states, issued paper money to pay for military expenses.

Printing money out of thin air is the root of American prosperity.

>>132129693

This only works a's an individual. If the (((collective))) exists like you say they do, then there would be nobody to screw with a short, there would be nobody left golding the bag.

Negative opinions about the market creates bear conditions and slows things down. They kill their golden goose.

There is no Jewish conspiracy in the market, it is too big for them to control entirely on their own. Your own scenario is disproven by your own argument, the short sale existing as a viable strategy tells us that it's not some monolithia Jewish force controlling the market.

>>132129703

Real estate. Trump himself told everyone that prIves were low 5 years ago and they were. It was obvious then that prices were low and would either recover or America wold die entirely.

People don't "time" the market because you can't do that on a regular and consistent basis. Extremely favorable conditions do not exist day in and day out, so you can not justify hiring someone to try and spot these conditions.

To say "buy low sell high" doesn't exist is to insist that opportunity doesn't exist. We know this is false.

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>>132130132
The American colonies were not a sovereign system until after the revolutionary war.

You can't have a functional sovereign currency when you aren't a real government see: the modern EU

>>132130673
We went to war for many reasons, the primary reason being political representation.

>>132130250
Profit motive is always more consistent, objective, and fair than the whims of the masses and of politicians. There is nothing more fair, when talking about loans, than profit
>you'll get the loan if you can pay it back
>the interest is set by the risk that you can't

>>132130104
>It doesn't have objective value

Its not objective, but there are parts that you can't simply take out. The running costs are the basis of the end value.

If this were true, sand and water would be free since its subjective cost should be null but in reality you are paying for labour and equipment.

>>132130532
I care little for their identity. I judge people for their actions.

>>132130532
The jews can only control the banks because regulator agencies meant to control the banks were BOUGHT by the banks and then declared the stuff yo be legal. Instead of being settled in a court with juries, regulation allows the banks to have nonaccountable panels that make their own laws, like dodd frank

Dont be an idiot.

>>132130250

You are assuming that the government doesn't have interests or needs for profit, but this is wrong, as any other human group it needs to enforce its laws and will not give for free. The main difference is that the government can compensate collectively with something more than money, but the end result is the same.

Unless you put the printing press on overdrive and accept the debts.

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>>132130713
The current stock boom is killing America

all the money printed by the banking system goes straight to the parasite on wall street, while the real productive economy languishes. Wall street doesn't invest that money in the real economy they spend a tiny percent of it on luxury goods and use the rest to gamble on real estate, offshore to tax havens, or otherwise keep it solely in the financial system.

>>132130786
Consistently damaging, objectively awful and fairly careless than the whims of the masses and of politicians.

Even a poor, crappy, revision implementation of Marx that was the USSR, had zero economic crises.

>>132130713
5 years prices were low because productivity was low, labor participation was at an all time low, taxes were auper hogh, the regulatory environment was stifling, etc. People didn't buy because they were afraid things would get worse.

They DID get worse. The o ly reason prices dodnt fall is because of "guidance" from qe.

To get through regulatory hurdles you need to be a billionaire. This is why pharmaceuticals are invented abroad and the patents bought in america.

Few investors can oush through rega like trump

Stop being a 13 year old kid and act humble if you dont know shit.

>>132116357
stop this BS, the Bolshevik revolution was crushed by the socdems and conservatives. Commies had no control over the Reichsbank and their printing of paper currency, neither over all the smaller entities doing it.
Hitler's Fiat currency, just like any other, went into an inflation too.

>>132130673

Now look at this.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_American_currency#Continental_currency

Continental currency was a FAILURE. Everything they fought to do didn't even work out in the end. It existed as a screw to anyone holding paper money, a screw to pay for the war that let's them print garbage money.

By the end of 1778, Continentals retained from 1⁄5 to 1⁄7 of their face value. By 1780, the bills were worth 1⁄40 of their face value. Congress attempted to reform the currency by removing the old bills from circulation and issuing new ones, without success. By May 1781, Continentals had become so worthless that they ceased to circulate as money. Franklin noted that the depreciation of the currency had, in effect, acted as a tax to pay for the war.[52]

>>132130521
>the government owned all the land and refused to sell it to private individuals?

I would call it modern government and the biggest possible speculator of land about which you can't do anything.

Do not expect good administration though, and central planning lacks the fast response and adaptive behavior of distributed systems which are key in markets, this attitude will only bring mad prices for everyone.

>>132130250

Ahh, the end result of communism, crossing your fingers and hoping really hard self-interest stops existing.

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>>132130850
yup

deregulation of the 1930s anti usury/ anti securities fraud legislation allowed the jews fund massive debt bubbles again just like they had previously done in the 1920s.

>>132131039
printing money negates debt
and taxes negate inflation

Money is just a unit of account/measurement, a sovereign country cannot run out of money anymore than it can run "inches" or "millimeters"

>>132129910
>Yes it is entirely correct and it was the ultimate basis of Natsoc economics

I always knew you were enclosed socialists.

>>132109757
It's all a meme.

As long as we think and quantify the world around us materially, we will be a servant-race and readily sacrifice our children upon Baal's blood-soaked altar of global neoliberal economics. For a piece of bread you will betray your people, your heritage, your own family. For thirty princes of silver younare taught to transgress against all that is eternal.

>>132131327
also:
http://www.nbbmuseum.be/en/2012/02/revolution.htm

>>132130806
They are free in anything but industrial quantities.

You're not paying for water, or for sand. You're paying for the service of bringing it to you, for ensuring the water is fit to drink. You're not paying for the product. You're paying for the service. For the middleman. A gallon of water in a sea or a spring has no value, even if pure. A gallon of water in a store does. That's true even if they're the same exact product. Why? Because value is not objective. If you base your thinking on a false premise you get false conclusions.

>>132131309
>Hitler's Fiat currency, just like any other, went into an inflation too.
but did Hitler owe monthly multi billion dollar interest payments on his fiat currency he borrowed from himself?

If you (gov) print your own money, inflation can not be a problem, as long as you consistently physically store a percentage of taxes you receive

yes goy debt is good, keep taking loans you will break your back to pay off

>>132131210
>mass famines you could set your clock by
>no economic crises
What do you call a shortage if not an economic phenomena?

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>>132131423
>self-interest is acquisition of money rather than what that money buys
How would you like a fertility rate of 2.5 children per woman?

>>132131430
>Money is just a unit of account/measurement

Money is an information tool about the value of products in the market, it serves as an indicator but also carries values in itself, so yes you shouldn't start printing money to compensate for debt since you would start giving false signals to every single economic agent in your country and then your taxes are ineffective since there won't be much to collect even if the numbers sound "right"

>>132116546
isnt velocity of money just how many times it gets spent within the economy?

>>132131658
Last famine was in 1947 due to devastation by war. What are you talking about?

>>132131377
I guess, I meant in more of the idea of natural resources, as the conversation was about copper mine. If Governments from the start owned all land, all natural resources, hasnt this been tried in certain places, is that what venezuala tried with oil?

>>132131739
Answer the question.

>>132131507
>You're paying for the service of bringing it to you,

Exactly, so there is an actual intrinsic value that you can't scape and is added to the price wether you like it or not, the difference is how its distributed between the economic agents involved; from the chemist making the tests to the technician checking the piping.

>>132131327
Which is why the Bank of the United States was created, a far better system that was actually sovereign

>>132131449
fun fact: National Socialist ideology originated in America as the "American System"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_School_(economics)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_System_(economic_plan)

>>132131726
> you shouldn't start printing money to compensate for debt since you would start giving false signals to every single economic agent in your country and then your taxes are ineffective since there won't be much to collect even if the numbers sound "right"

Government can control the value of money at will simply by printing/taxing money at will the same way a driver can control the speed of his car by stepping on the gas pedal or letting go of it.

A low level of inflation is actually good for the economy and spurs production, higher wages, more industry, etc. The trick is to manage the economy with a sovereign credit system (like the German National Socialists or the old American Bank of the United States) managed by the government and public representatives rather than a private one (the modern FED) run by unelected private bankers/wall street CEOs

>>132131728
Yea money velocity is the mist jewish economic measurement jn existence.

If i loan you 59 dollars and youbloan me 100 then i loan you 200 that's money velocity lol

>>132131871
Shortages happened after Gorbachev's reforms and the collapse. But that's when USSR truly died.

>>132131635
what? He owed it to the German people, they had to give their gold for paper currency which no longer had a purchasing power outside of Germany, and was heavily regulated within Germany. The idea "I borrow from myself" and nothing happens is nonsense.
The currency printed exceeded tax revenues by a manifold, that's why the debt rose to unsustainable levels. War loot bridged the payment gap and avoided a shortage of consumer goods.

>>132131739

If we account for satellite states things go much further:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Pests_Campaign

>>132109757
A lot of non-economists or wanna be economists here.

National Debt an sich is no real problem.
As long as the created debt, creates a form of 'income' which is greater than the interests+loans of said debt than it is okay to make that debt.

If The created debt does not create enough 'income' to cover i+loans than you can talk about 'bad' debt.

Interest payment = wealth loss

I used to partake in these threads before I started doing my doctorate in Econ. Now I can see you are all a bunch of uneducated retards that have no idea what economics is, what national debt entails, what the Fed does, and how monetary policy is conducted. And if I can see the bullshit in your opinions regarding something I'm knowledgeable about, I can only infer your other retarded "le redpiller" agenda is equally uninformed and misleading.
Pick up a book, for God's sake.

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>>132110212
as you can see according to this graph, debt and central banking are inherently necessary to a function economy, and are thus a good thing.

>>132132294
>China is a satellite of Soviet Union
I'm flattered, but no. Also Mao was a dumbass.

>>132132122
> control the value of money at will

Goverment can control the value of money on the rise easily, but not the other way around since it takes much more time to lower inflation even if you design it carefully.

And inflation is only good for production because it increases exports but lowers everything else; the value of the product, your workers, your institutions, there is a reason China wants its Yuan at such a low price; they are not ready to transition into a non industrial economy.

>>132132321
Enslaving the entire male population does not crash the economy either

That does not mske it GOOD

Debt acts as a drag on the fundamental pricing mexhanisms of the market, just like interest rates.

If you don't understand that you're a useful idiot

Just lije enslavement doesSnot STOP production, but i IS a drag. Beacusr no matterRhow hard you beat your slaves you lose market information for labor

>>132132489
>I'm flattered, but no.

It was a satellite for decades, its just that Mao decided that Russia became too soft and started to show it the middle finger.

By the time Reagan was around China was waiting the opportunity to backstab Russia in case of war.

>>132131890
No, the opposite. It's not an intrinsic value. Objective value does not exist. If it was, you'd go and get your own damn water. Value is subjective. That's why a water reservoir has more value in the hands of some and why you don't go get it yourself. It has more value to them than to you because they're more efficient at adding value to it. That's why they can profit, that's why not every single transaction is a scam. Value is subjective.

Now, yes, in practical terms in business the price is usually bounded by the running costs since you can only decrease static costs to negligible levels by expansion. But price isn't immutable and shouldn't be fixed, because value is subjective.

>>132132353

Holy shit, its like concentrated /sci/ and its obsession with brainletism.

>>132132170
Stop deflecting. Answer the question.

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>>132109757

It's meme of worst kind. Doing things opposite way as Keynes is just as retard as Keynes himself.

>>132112904

Pic heavily related on US. problems. You are actually running out of money, not opposite(like gold bugs and procoiners say) and there is three major reasons

1) Europe has negative interest rates so European banks are buying/parking cash in US (+USA is a tax haven for foreign investors).

2) India and it's war against paper money. They are removing paper rupee from the market so people are moving to dollars(big chunk of dollars are in 3rd world countries anyway)

3) China. Thanks to bitcoin, people of China can bypass currency exchange reductions. And as tax haven USA is good place to stash your wealth.

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>>132132170
shortages were already widespread by the 1960s because communism is inherently flawed

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Era_of_Stagnation

The USSR chronically underproduced and underinvested in consumer goods and quality infrastructure and overproduced military equipment that was never used.

>>132132549
Causing deflation is incredibly easy as the 1930s should show you

All you need to do is discourage business. In the 30s this was caused by the stock market crash of 1929 ans wasn't fixed until the US government started massive government spending during the lead up to WW2.

Germany of course recovered incredibly quickly thanks to all of Hitler's government spending on infrastructure and the military.

>>132132681
Anyway, life expectation still doubled under Mao. And most commies don't like Maoism or China.

>>132132736
> static costs

Thats my point, price is not completely subjective there are objective points to it that drive it and we can measure and make predictions about, and they start with the running costs.

>>132132353
>PhD in Econ

Have some self respect and do Physic/Mathematics. Also did you even work for some respected financial institution before starting PhD?

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>>132132818
>neglecting civilian economy in favour of the military because of threat of war by USA is inherent to communism's failure
>USA is inherent to communism's failure
True, but it's okay, we won't make the same mistake next time and those nukes will be flying.

>>132132278
I suppose the concept of 'war' messes things up a bit.

Some of the taxes would be put aside to curb inflation, I suppose this is also the idea of bonds.

Paper having purching power outside of ones country depends on a countries gdp relating also to imports and exports?

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>>132132796
That graph proves Keynes was right

Keynes said we should put all our money in the industrial sector

Instead the US government put all the money into wall street i.e. the unproductive, parasitic financial sector.

>>132132927
>objective prices

there is no such thing

There is only marginal utility

>>132133178
MAD ensured that the US had no conceivable way to threaten the Communist world or vice versa without setting of a worldwide nuclear holocaust that would kill us all anyway

What's the point of bringing endless fields of unused tanks to a nuke fight?

>>132130515
depends on what you mean by surface.
a foundation is definitely a construction you need labour and materials for

>>132130521
thats what singapore is trying to do for about a decade.
leasehold property only for the land it does control

>>132132927
Again, that's only true from a practical business perspective. Running costs stem from prices(labor, parts etc) which are mutable because value is subjective. It's not an argument for any form of intrinsic or objective value, the concept of objective value is fucking retarded.

Value is subjective. Natural resources don't have objective value. Exploitation rights don't. Infrastructure doesn't. Financing doesn't. Labor doesn't. Marketing doesn't. Locale doesn't. Delivery doesn't, and the final product sure as shit doesn't either. It's ultimately decided by each individual. Value is subjective.

>>132133681
5 star post

>>132132736
There is some amount of objective value though.

Everyone absolutely needs water to survive, therefore water must have some objective value.

there are a limited amount of fresh water reserves, therefore everyone in the world competes to have access to them, relatively setting a semi objective price value for fresh water

>>132132796
this is because the average person needs to work, spend for their and families living expenses and save.

Unaverage people, get lots of more money, and can save lots of more money, and newly printed money doesnt go to the average people, but the people that can use that money to tie it up in investments and savings taking it out of 'velocity'.

So you say: "theres not enough money"
more and more money is printed, given to some people, who say "this is my money, put it in my bank accounts, invest it in my name"
"theres not enough money"
"print more money"
"give the money to us"
"this is my money, put it in my bank accounts, invest it in my name"
"theres not enough money"
"print more money"
"give the money to us"
"this is my money, put it in my bank accounts, invest it in my name"
"theres not enough money"
"print more money"
"give the money to us"
"this is my money, put it in my bank accounts, invest it in my name"

>>132133315
Nope, the economy was a war economy in the first place, it solely relied on loot, e.g. Czech and Austrian gold deposits.
Taxes were kept low in order to keep the delusion of a working economy, what happened was the Allgemeiner Preisstop in 1936, a state mandated cap of prices. This delayed hyperinflation for some years.
Paper currency depends on whether currency is listed as forex and can changed back into forex, which no longer was the case with the Reichsmark. Much of the German foreign trade was barter.

>>132133486
Keynes didn't say anything about tax cuts. His medicine was that you should increase deficit spending to create "fake" demand. But that doesn't really work since time to time (1970 and now) governments prove that they can only fill their own pockets.

Tax cuts as easing is something that Adam Smith teached and something that president Reagan did. Golden 80's... If Trump gets his tax cuts, USA will face new golden age :3

>>132133931
>relatively setting a semi objective price value for fresh water
>setting a semi objective price value
In terms of what?!
Dollars? Tractors? Manpower? Dragon dildos?
None of those have objective value!

You've set a demand, not a price and not a value. And supply, with no mention of who's in control of it. It's pretty damn safe to say whoever that is has no difficulty in having his bodily needs of hydration met. So what value does water hold to him? Fucking nothing aside from what he can exchange it for. Or use in production, again resulting in exchange.

A man dying of thirst will pay you $10 for a glass of water and fucking thank you for it. I'd tell you to blow it out your ass. Or give you the clothes off my back if that'd been me. Value is subjective.

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>>132135117

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>>132135117
>Keynes didn't say anything about tax cuts.

Wrong

Keynes completely endorsed government spending and tax cuts to end a recession especially if it was in regard to the productive, industrial economy.

Cutting taxes, especially taxes imposed by the rent seeking aristocracy, has been a primary economic idea since long before Adam Smith. See: French economists such as physicocrats.

>>132135902
>bunch of plastic toys made in China adding to the trillion dollar deficit

wow how great for the economy

Or rather how great for all the Chinese workers many 2 cents an hour.

>>132132796
This guy gets it.

>>132136288
Smith, Keynes and Marx are the big three of left-wing egonomix :DDD

>>132109757
I get what MMT is trying to say but holy fuck they need to really work on how to dummy down the theory for public consumption. I've put this to other people and all I get is blank stares of what the fuck did I just hear

>>132136288
and: the Chinese protect their industry with a tariff wall against our exports, but can export here freely

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>>132131065
>economic policy fully explains how wealth was distributed in the course of three decades

how simplistic can you be, you piece of shit

>>132124108
Hyper inflation is always a deliberate strategy by a sovereign to basically fuck over their creditors. The Austrians love to hold up Zimbabwe as their boogey man of what money printing does but if it held true we would have seen a country like Japan implode ages ago.

>>132134222

You look things on too small scale(don't blame you, it's hard usually hard to see things on global sense). You see only your country when problem is in others. And everyone has to save and invest otherwise you just spend everything on useless shit like
>>132135902
There is always deficit and inflation. When there is growth you should save for times of deficit and government should help people with tax cuts. If you just spend spend spend like no tomorrow you will not only ruin your life, but next generation too. And Boomers are doing that to us, they have not saved enough for themselves and now they rob from us.

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>>132136861
>Keynes
>leftist

lol

>>132137240
We used to protect our industry until the late 1970s

now we run half a trillion dollar trade deficits and ship millions of jobs overseas

hurray for free trade

>>132137340
that's how economic policy works

>>132109757
Yes, you can eat, shit and fuck as much as you want right now and worry about payment later. That is the aryan way after all.

>>132137507
Should. But it won't happen as gibsmedats paid for by debts and higher taxes for the rich is the biggest vote bringer. True, we are stuck with the Cantillon Effect...

>>132125103
Why is everyone ignoring this

>>132126065
wait a tick, aren't Chicagoans non intervention as well?

>>132110212

>For every surplus there is a deficit
What is the Zero Sum Fallacy, Trebek?

>>132137904
Well, left-of-center.

>>132137904
Keynes was a leftist, leftists promote Keynesianism.
You (we) still protect parts of our industry.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tax
Well, the rigged Keynesianist system is far from being qualified as free trade - e.g. our industry pays high taxes which companies in other countries don't, EU ppl. pay high income taxes and subsidize exports, allowing companies to pay low business taxes.

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>>132137904
ps. the inequality trajectory wasn't even bad before the recession

>>132138723
>I don't understand what caused the 2008 recession.
t. you

Go watch Inside Job, ffs

>>132137904

What's wrong with a trade deficit?

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>>132139197
nice argument.

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>>132138087
Freidman wanted a central bank

Austrians ultimately want no government at all (albeit Mises was a democratic socialist, but they don't care)

>>132138483
No, he wasn't. He was a literal capitalist that supported eugenics and the British Empire

>>132138565
>Keynes was a leftist,

Nope. He was an admirer oh Hitler's economic programs, pushed protectionism, eugenics, and other right wing policies.

>>132138723
yes it was

>>132139450
>protectionism is a right-wing policy
Not for the last half a century, bucko. Or do you think you can just rewrite your own history after free trade pushed another billion people below poverty line?

>>132139450
>using income instead of compensation

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>>132139362
>what's wrong with shipping millions of jobs and trillions of dollars overseas

You mean besides the fact it destroy domestic industrial production and manufacturing, hollows out your country and leaves it to rot as a debt ridden shithole?

Probably the fact that the only way to spur "GDP" when you excise production from your economy is to bring in millions of foreigners in order to raise real estate prices.

Because real estate bubbles are "productive" according to central bankers

>>132139603
It depends on what you mean by right wing frankly

Do you mean neoliberalism/globalism that passes for "right wing" economics in America? I would call that leftism

>>132139642
Employee Benefits have been almost completely cut out of the modern US worker's compensation.

Maybe Finland is different.

>>132122407

They got huge natural gas reserves, and they're tearing OPEC apart (a la Qatar). Chinese are backing up their new energy investments financially.

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>>132139952
>neoliberalism is leftism
So not only are you trying to rewrite your own tooting of the free trade horn and sucking of the corporate penis, you're trying to blame leftists, too. What a basic bitch conservative you are.

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Us leftists, right? We love cutting services to the people, and giving the rich tax breaks.

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>>132139952
not true at all

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>>132140217
why does the modern left unequivocally support globalism and liberalism while it shills for social justice cultural policy?

Why are the heroes of the modern left Silicon Valley CEOs, wall street parasites, international bankers, and members of the political and media elite who fawn over them all while they promote the growing mass immigration and outsourcing, and austerity policies that continue to destroy the country?

>>132140487
US Employees pay for company provided health insurance out of their salary

The only exception is congress

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>>132140475
The modern EU is comproised of leftist globalist shills

The modern EU is also pro austerity, even Syriza, the "far left" socialist party in Greece fully endorses austerity and the racial and economic displacement of the Greek people.

>>132134493
so the issue is how does a nations paper fiat money = value to other nations?

the answer is, how it is backed up by exports,imports (how many goods, commodities that nation has that other nations value)?

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>>132140603
Because CIA was purging socialists, while elevating right-of-center liberals as "the left". Also, SJWs are actual COINTELPRO.

>>132135183
how better and worse would things be if there was only 1 single world currency?

>>132140475

The center of their ideology is a world-wide welfare state for purposes of control. Internationalism and the welfare state are leftist positions.

>>132139450
Hitler was a Keynesianist, protectionism is nothing only right-wingers would support, eugenics were common (also supported by Swedish socdems)

>>132135183
ok so the objective value needs to be cemented in a common agreed to currency, or other common agreed to values/commodities,
or seeing what everyone demands, and how its supplied

>>132140730
EU are neo-liberals that are on the short-list to be shot. Syriza has no guts and decided to submit to the EU and their economic terrorism.

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>>132109757

about 70% of all collected taxes have been used up towards servicing debt

so no

>>132137507
>There is always deficit and inflation. When there is growth you should save for times of deficit and government should help people with tax cuts. If you just spend spend spend like no tomorrow you will not only ruin your life, but next generation too. And Boomers are doing that to us, they have not saved enough for themselves and now they rob from us.
but a lot of people live pay check to pay check, a lot of people pay rent, wages low, rising cost of living

>>132140944
That doesn't make value objective. Currency is the ultimate display of the subjectivity of value. Fiat really doesn't hold any value whatsoever save for what you can get in exchange for it.
>world currency
It would be incredibly destructive. Look at the writing leading up to the EMU, even the most rabid Euro supporters will tell you there are pretty strict criteria for eligibility to a currency union.

>>132141019
Also, "right-winger that doesn't want to be murdered by leftists" position, just ask Bismarck.

>>132140841

You realize social justice advocacy preceded Occupy Wall street in 2010 right?

That's like saying the Tea Party was a CIA plot.
>>132141108
Hitler wasn't a Keynesian, but they did have similar ideologies. Hitler received most of his economic ideas from the German historical school of economics.

>>132141152
Or, perhaps, they saw no real issue with the EU's economic policies, because they saw common cause with fellow leftists.

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>>132139952

>You mean besides the fact it destroy domestic industrial production and manufacturing, hollows out your country and leaves it to rot as a debt ridden shithole?

1. We manufacture more now than we ever have. We just don't need to pay people $20/hr to lift things anymore, so it looks like the industry has declined.

2. Outsourcing manufacturing is good. It provides cheaper goods and allows people to live better at all incomes.

3. Trade deficit =/= debt. What it does mean is that foreign investment in the US is high.

>Probably the fact that the only way to spur "GDP" when you excise production from your economy is to bring in millions of foreigners in order to raise real estate prices.

Or to do things that are actually worth paying people for. Like services and high-skilled jobs.

>Because real estate bubbles are "productive" according to central bankers

Real estate is an important sector of the economy. What's wrong with people buying and selling property to each other's mutual benefit? What is unproductive about that?

People are laughing at you because you argue economics like a 9th-grader who just found r/the_donald

>>132140778
many competing paper currencies are better than one world paper currency. A paper currency is a promise to be able to purchase something, no guarantee. The Reichsmark after no longer being backed by anything lost its status as convertible currency.
Exports, imports, good, commodities etc. do not determine the value of Fiat currencies, they are just a vague promise.

>>132140603
most of health insurance costs in the US are paid by the employer

>>132141671
>You realize social justice advocacy preceded Occupy Wall street in 2010 right?
Yes. And you had to go out of your way to find them even on tumblr, and everybody hated them on Plebbit. Then suddenly they are everywhere, and Hilldawg cares about them? That doesn't seem suspicious to you?

>That's like saying the Tea Party was a CIA plot.
>Tea Party wasn't hijacked by corporations.
Do you know anything about anything?

>>132141812

The value of fiat currency is determined in a similar way to the value of fidget spinners. People want them.

>>132109757
>Is national debt a meme?

Yes. No citizen owes the debt that governments foist upon them.

>>132142097

Ironically the government owes the citizens in this case.

>>132141129
No. Read this: >>132128468

Value is subjective. Not price, value. Assuming objective value to be a reality(it isn't), or attempting to impose objective value, is ignoring the entire problem of resource allocation and doomed to fail. It's throwing the baby out with the bathwater, cutting your nose off to spite your face. It's fucking stupid. Resource allocation is the principal task of economics, ignoring it is discarding economics entirely. All of economics is built on the subjectivity of value and it is an obvious truth.

>>132139450
>Freidman wanted a central bank
theres nothing wrong with a central bank, they are needed, the only issue is who owns and runs them

>>132136288

There is a reason why leftist/socialists/democrats love Keynes. And he never advised for tax cuts -.- just don't tell false stories. Even whole EU project and their economy follows somewhat Keynesianism. But it will only create mother of all bubbles and it has started to leak already.

Of course Adam Smith was not first one to talk about it but he was 1st one who theorized it. Sweden/Finland could say that Anders Chydenius was the 1st modern day liberal but in reality was common wave against mercantilism.

>>132141671
One doesn't need a special school of economics for heavy borrowing, market rigging and confiscating gold.

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>>132141690
>We manufacture more now than we ever have.

We export millions more jobs than we ever have

>We just don't need to pay people $20/hr to lift things

Pedo will do it for 1 peso a day

>What it does mean is that foreign investment in the US is high.

If you export your country's industrial capacity to foreigners you win!

>Like services and high-skilled jobs.

i.e. financial parasitism

>Real estate is an important sector of the economy

It's important to endlessly expand debt bubbles and make housing unaffordable

>>132141947
And those costs are largely inflated by insurance cartels

so even more money is being sucked from wages and being sent into the parasitic financial sector.

>>132141974
>you had to go out of your way to find them

Or maybe it just took a few years for common social justice ideas in the higher tiers of liberal arts academia to filter down to the masses

Occam's Razor

>Tea Party wasn't hijacked by corporations.

That was a natural product of boomers being corporate shills

>>132141690
>2. Outsourcing manufacturing is good. It provides cheaper goods and allows people to live better at all incomes.
>at all incomes
Wrong.

Understand that economics is a field taken by ((them)) and any theory that gets widely famous is those who benefits them, no one will fund the economists that gives the redpills about ((money))

>>132142070
the difference is govenments force you to use their fiat currency and hold a monopoly on it as well as its interest rates. People are not asked wthether they want them, no one I know wante dto have the Deutschmark be replaced with the €.

>>132142631
>And those costs are largely inflated by insurance cartels

so even more money is being sucked from wages and being sent into the parasitic financial sector.


I totally agree on the culprit here. Without these crony cartels, the money could gutter straight into the workers' pockets

>>132142534
> he never advised for tax cuts -.-

yes, he did. Putting an emoji next to a statement doesn't make it true

>>132142463
Friedman supported the Federal Reserve, you can't be more of a pro wall street shill than that

>>132142575
Germans created their own currency and funded their own economy.

Still jew gold was just a form of racial punishment

>>132141426

They live over their living standards. Also those who are in poorest state should look at their parents/grand parents, they have not saved at all! This is huge problem in black communities when none of their predecessors saved or thought about next generation.

China raised from shit hole to less shitty place just because of forced saving. And nowadays everyone saves for better future in there. On other hand Communist party is communist and they increase public sector each year.

>>132142070
>>132141812
>The value of fiat currency is determined by.... People want them.

this would be the case for literally anything, including gold and silver.

So there needs to be some consensus, on some 'item' (items) that everyone agrees they will use as a bartering tool. Paper, backed by the nations ability to create goods and commodities, (gdp, exports, imports) has been shown to be the thing that determines this

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>>132142631

>We export millions more jobs than we ever have

And? We continue to create jobs. I don't know if you've noticed, but unemployment is actually at a pretty good level in most of the country right now, especially in the most economically-relevant parts. It would be better if some people would leave bumfuck nowhere and relocate for opportunity like they worship their ancestors for doing. What's the problem with streamlining our economy so that we're doing the work that we do best and create as much value as possible?

In other words, why should we focus on things that we're not good at, or not efficient at, instead of things we do better than everyone else on earth?

>Pedo will do it for 1 peso a day

Again, we make more now than we ever have, objectively. Outsourcing is irrelevant--automation is rendering redundant a lot of our workers. Look at coal for an example. And soon, those outsourced jobs will be done by machines, too.

>If you export your country's industrial capacity to foreigners you win!

But isn't export manufacturing precisely the same thing? Except with an additional loss of natural resource wealth? Robbing our people of their lives and the sweat of their brows so foreigners can use American computers?

Or is it possible that doing business with the outside world is good for everyone, including workers? Try this: go to any current or former small, blue-collar manufacturing town and tell them you want to take away Walmart. See how they react.

>i.e. financial parasitism

I call that doing work for people that they don't want to do themselves and are willing to pay to have done.

>It's important to endlessly expand debt bubbles and make housing unaffordable

Housing is unaffordable? Where do you live?

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>>132131309
>Hitler's Fiat currency, just like any other, went into an inflation too.

Empirical evidence shows us that hyper inflation is intentional and you can't achieve German/Zimbabwe levels of inflation by accident.

Germans were demanded to pay war reparations to Allies after the Versailles treaty. Allies weren't all sure that Germany is going to pay as demanded so the French decided to try to be clever and they demanded reparations in Papiermarks and later in Reichmarks. Clearly the Germans aren't going to hyper-inflate their own currency out spite, right? WRONG!

So now when it comes to Brits leaving the union I hear pro-brexit people arguing: "We have jeopardized the German elites little project of building the fourth Reich. But clearly the Germans wouldn't hurt their own economy out of spite." I wouldn't put it past the Germans knowing their history.

>>132143023

You do realize that the original point of the gold standard was for every relevant trading state on earth to use a single universal currency, right?

>>132142335
>All of economics is built on the subjectivity of value and it is an obvious truth.
ok but whats your point? I dont know what you are arguing for or against. We agree everything is subjective, but then we look at the world and see: What do people need to survive. What do people want. How can people create value to survive. And answers come to us as the totality of the worlds resources, land and capital ownership, and supply and demand, and that dynamic totality of supply and demand and trade and ownership and work is as close to the objective perceptions of values, as can possibly get?

>>132143208
>Germans created their own currency and funded their own economy.

a pretty meaningless phrase.

>Still jew gold was just a form of racial punishment

oh, here we go. The 1936 Goldverbot, the ban on privately owned gold, was for everybody, not just Jews.

>>132143208
>Friedman supported the Federal Reserve, you can't be more of a pro wall street shill than that
so either he didnt know about it... or he was getting a few million patted on his back

>>132143505
prove there is a direct connection between im-/exports and the amount of fiat currency produced.

>>132143767
where did I ever deny that?

>>132126065
>austrian school is big
It's a meme.

>>132143423
Is it possible for every person on earth to have a job and continuously profit and save and live? Is that theoretically possible?

>>132109757
I dont know what this 'modern monetary theory' is, but yeah, national debt is a meme.

>>132144011
>prove there is a direct connection between im-/exports and the amount of fiat currency produced.
What determines the relative differences of values of different nations paper money?

>>132143718
of course, the hyperinflation was created on purpose. The reparations had to be paid by goldmarks, bonds and commodities, later in Reichsmark too (from 1924 on).
The real issue was Germany paid the war by indebting the German people, made them buy war bonds, which became worthless after WW1.

Many of the German elites are happy GB left, as GB always was opposed to an EU army, EU superstate etc. The current German led economic policy ruthlessly expoits the other EU members - one only can wonder how tame and cucked all the Italians etc. are.

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>fiat matters
>pay your debts
>seize the means

the world needs to be agrarian with all other resources being spent on getting the fuck off earth.

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>>132143590
>We continue to create jobs.

wages are shit private debt is at all time highs, no one can afford anything in the country. and prices continue to increase all while wages stagnate

production has increased because of technology, but wages have not increased with production.

>we make more now than we ever have

wrong. I tiny group of financial parasites make more, everyone else is far worse off

>But isn't export manufacturing precisely the same thing?

We aren't losing jobs if we export goods, genius

> the outside world is good for everyone, including workers?

Outsourcing jobs so wages can stay low just keeps 3rd world countries backwards low wage shitholes

>I call that doing work for people that they don't want to do themselves

I suppose pickpockets think of themselves in similar terms

>Where do you live?

a city

>>132144398
only trust in the promise it purchases something in foreseeable future and the amount of it being printed off.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQWMd_NPSBA

>>132136288
>Keynes completely endorsed government spending and tax cuts to end a recession

This. Its only that politics based on Keynes fail to recognize that your supposed to increase taxes when in boom phase of the cycle.

Ironically when considering the origins of Keynes's critics, Austria is the only western nation that has it right. Usually they cut taxation when in bust and increase when in boom. They are the only ones who do it by the book and are pretty well off due to this.

>>132109757
Money is a scam. It not possible to pay the worlds debt at all.

>>132143208
and just saying that "he did" without context is nothing burger.

Keynes In a nut shell:
>"John Maynard Keynes was, basically, an inflationist. This has not been clearly recognized because he never spelled out, step by step, the consequences of his proposed remedy for unemployment and depression. That remedy was deficit spending by the government. He recognized that increased government spending paid for by equally increased taxation would not “add purchasing power.” The increased taxation would offset any “stimulus” that the increased government spending would provide. What counted, he confessed, was the government deficit. But he failed to take his readers beyond this step. How would that deficit be financed? Either the money would have to be borrowed, or new (paper) money or credit would have to be created. But if the money were borrowed, then the previous spending stimulus would be reversed by a deflation when the borrowing was repaid. The only thing to prevent this reversal would be to allow the new spending to remain outstanding. In other words, the Keynesian solution to every slowdown in business or rise in unemployment was still another dose of inflation. "
>Henry Hazlitt

>>132143208

Honestly you try mix classic liberalism and some weird socialist economics that should have and say that it's liberalism. That is what 3rd wave feminism is all about so honestly, go back to pleddit.

>>132143779
Supply and demand is just the market-level emergent pattern from individuals' subjective assessments of the value things have to them. My point is this is useful as hell, and attempting to bypass the mechanisms through which the subjectivity of value can be expressed (and value created through effective resource allocation) out of some perverse need for autistic levels of objectivity in all things by superimposing a verdict of value by some bureaucrats over the individual assessments which are the actual source of value has only, will only, and can only result in problems and inefficiencies due to inappropriate pricing as you disconnect pricing from what actually gives things value.

Value is not intrinsic. Value is not created. Value is assigned by individuals through their choice of buying, or not buying any one thing. There is no objective value.

>>132143590
>We continue to create jobs
The Jobs produced are MUCH MUCH worse than the old ones. Not everyone likes working for scraps.
>but unemployment is actually at a pretty good level in most of the country right now
Labor Participation rate is terrible, and it's only good where globalists operate (i.e. DC, NY, SF).
>economically-relevant parts
You mean where the globalists rigged the economy to favor them and their parasitic behavior, while impoverishing other working people? OK.
>It would be better if some people would leave bumfuck nowhere and relocate for opportunity
"People need to recognize that I am the winner in this economy and political climate, and instead of fighting to be prosperous and independent, they should be fighting over who gives me my latte for minimum wage. They also need to accept the diversity."
>What's the problem with streamlining our economy so that we're doing the work that we do best and create as much value as possible?
"What's the problem with impovershing most working people so they they can serve my parasitic behavior, so I end up well off."
>In other words, why should we focus on things that we're not good at, or not efficient at, instead of things we do better than everyone else on earth?
"Why should we focus on things that most people in the US are best at, and can be prosperous with, when we should be focusing on what I and the rest of the parasitic service economy is best at."

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>>132109757
>A crypto commie inadvertently made one of the better threads on /pol/.

How the fuck did this happen?

>>132144729
Stop telling truth, it's enough that I know economy is a giant ponzi scheme

>>132144729
>production has increased because of technology, but wages have not increased with production.

use compensation in the future instead of wages, and the situation suddenly starts looking quite different. you hate giving up your dogma, don't you?

ok, I think I understand, partially. But what are you suggesting should be changed? You are not simply mad about this semantic error of objective subjective.

You are mad that you think financial institutions, stock markets, dollar values, grocery stores, all have their values wrong... because?

>>132143590
In other words, answer why shouldn't I fight to impoverish you and your sick ilk, if most working people in bumfuck nowhere are better off? Protip: You can't
Fuck yourself

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>>132144729

>wages are shit private debt is at all time highs, no one can afford anything in the country. and prices continue to increase all while wages stagnate

Total compensation has been rising just fine. Wages haven't increased as much because you're offered other benefits through work now, like health insurance and retirement plans.

I can afford things just fine, as can most people. If you were right, aggregate demand would be way down, which it isn't. Play with this:

https://data.oecd.org/gdp/domestic-demand-forecast.htm

As you can see, it's pretty stable, and growing. Could be better, but it's within the norm right now.

>wrong. I tiny group of financial parasites make more, everyone else is far worse off

No, I mean we produce more than we used to.

>We aren't losing jobs if we export goods, genius

We aren't losing jobs anyway, so I'm not sure what problem you're seeing. I think what you mean is that we should use the state to prop up failing industries and jobs that don't need to be done anymore, which would be a vast and unsustainable expansion of the welfare state.

>Outsourcing jobs so wages can stay low just keeps 3rd world countries backwards low wage shitholes

You wouldn't have a lot of stuff you have now, including your computer, if we forced companies to use overpaid American workers to produce everything.

Let the third world do what they're good at, and let us do what we're good at. What's wrong with that?

How can you live in a home if housing is unaffordable?

>>132143786
>a pretty meaningless phrase.

No, Germany funded its own government

not meaningless

>the ban on privately owned gold,

lol

no such ban existed

>>132145025
Cutting taxes increases demand and therefore price inflation

There's nothing wrong with either of those things. Hazlitt has no argument here besides some emotional dislike of inflation.

Inflation of a few percent a year is good.

>>132144729
>wrong. I tiny group of financial parasites make more, everyone else is far worse off
Right
>I suppose pickpockets think of themselves in similar terms
This is what you need to realize. The parasites legitimately view themselves as helpful, and beneficial to all. They can't function without their cognitive dissonance. They will always say how their impoverishing of people actually is a good thing.

the government needed to create massive inflation and siphon off a lot of that money through taxs and interest because they need to fund the most advanced scientific research and development

>>132145888
>overpaid
We can't all work for scraps to support you.
>health insurance and retirement plans.
I hope your trolling
Either way, when it crashes, you'll be on your way out. Just a matter of time.

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>>132145484

>The Jobs produced are MUCH MUCH worse than the old ones. Not everyone likes working for scraps.

Some of them. Some of them are a lot better. We have a lot more white-collar workers than we did in 1960, but a lot fewer heavy manufacturing workers.

>Labor Participation rate is terrible, and it's only good where globalists operate (i.e. DC, NY, SF).

AKA where the majority of people work and live?

I've already addressed this. People living where there is no economy should move to places where there is work to be done. This is not a new idea--all of our ancestors did this at one point or another.

For the rest of your screed I'll just say that I won't apologize for being (mildly) successful, and won't ask that other hard-working people give out the fruits of their labor as welfare to people who refuse to participate in the economy.

Sorry coal "died" (even though it objectively didn't). Get with the times like everyone else and stop begging for handouts.

>>132145965
>No, Germany funded its own government
woah, that taxation was about? no shit?

>not meaningless
your phrase is meaningless, if simply printing off paper bills could create wealth and a stable economy, we'd all be prosperous.

>no such ban existed
fuck off
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goldverbot#Verbot_des_Privatbesitzes_in_der_Zeit_des_Nationalsozialismus

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>>132145683
employee benefits aren't liquid assets


>>132145888
>Total compensation has been rising just fine.

no, it hasn't, the very fact that consumers are droawn in debt as they try to afford basic needs is testament to that.

>aggregate demand would be way down,

it is only increasing because of a constant stream of foreigners and a constant increase in private debt which continues to make goods and services, especially real estate, even more affordable than before

>we produce more than we used to.

because of an increase in technology. However we outsource half a trillion dollars of production a year overseas all of which could be employing Americans and increasing wages of American workers

>We aren't losing jobs anyway

trade deficit means ipso facto losing jobs, you are outsoourcing jobs to other countries

>if we forced companies to use overpaid American workers

>paying workers good wages is bad

kys

>unsustainable expansion of the welfare state.

The welfare state becomes more and more entrenched as you ship jobs overseas and bring in non white immigrants

>Let the third world do what they're good at

continue to stagnate in poverty?

>How can you live in a home if housing is unaffordable?

I rent. And rents far outpace wages

>>132145748

Well good luck, because I do work that is valuable to most people, and you apparently do not.

>>132146709
prosperity doesn't come from printing money or hoarding gold rocks, it comes from working, production, technology, organization, etc

White countries are generally well off because white people work, innovate, invent, etc.

Black countries are poor because black people laze around and set each other on fire for fun.

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>>132109757
If you consider spending 300b+ in interest with historically low interest rates a meme then yeah.

>>132146971
>prosperity doesn't come from printing money or hoarding gold rocks, it comes from working, production, technology, organization, etc
Yes part of the discussion was how who controls printing too much money threatens prosperity

>>132146779

>no, it hasn't, the very fact that consumers are droawn in debt as they try to afford basic needs is testament to that.

Which consumers are we talking about, here? People who bought houses they shouldn't have bought? Or students who took out loans they shouldn't have?

>trade deficit means ipso facto losing jobs, you are outsoourcing jobs to other countries

Again, no it doesn't, it means increased foreign investment, which creates jobs.

I think the real problem here is that you're just kind of dumb and don't read.