The EU

>>131664382
It is a dictatorship, plain and simple !

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>he still believes democracy is good
>he believes people with double digit IQ should run Europe

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>>131664382
>the EU
>democratic

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>>131664733
>democracy
was intended to play at a local level, where the participants share a common set of values, and where, ideally, can count the votes on sight (pic. related). This, obviously, just can't work with such facist and megalomanious projects like the EU. It clearly shows.

>>131664382
more of an oligarchic or aristocratic republic, so a democracy of elites

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>>131665101
I think EU democracy *could* work if the people of Europe actually KNEW who the European parties were and what they stood for.

In this country at least, people wouldn't even recognise these two logos, and that's why the EU isn't exactly democratic.

>>131664649
who is the dictator?
But its is definetly not democratic

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>>131664382
As democratic as Hillary Klintong you dumb son of a bitch..!

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>>131665343
Do people in your country know who the European parties are and what their policies are? Because in our country, people don't.

But I blame this on the EU parties - it's their responsibility to tell us their policies. They don't do this. So I see their power as illegitimate.

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>>131665340
>EU democracy *could* work
lol no. How do you get a majority to vote for anything, if there is no majority to be hand anywhere, since people are divided, and values are so different. Why the fuck do you mean those faggits in Brussels always speak of "muuuh european values"?? BECAUSE THEY'RE A FUCKING LIE! THERE ARE NO EUROPEAN VALUES. REEEEEEEEEEEEE

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>>131664382
lol

>>131664382
it looks like it, but it isnt.

because of how the European commission works-

and because of the fact that the Eu parliament itself cannot propose legislation

its one huge powergrab

>>131664382
Not anymore if it ever was no

>>131664382
Was the 3rd Reich democratic? No
Why would the 4th Reich be democratic?

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>>131665807
>it looks like it
no it doesn't :DD

>>131666124
oh fuck off will ya? not every one has the same understanding of democracy we do.

its plenty democratic for Hans, or Jean-Pierre

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>>131665689
I agree with you it's a bit of a lie, but that's because - like I said - they are not gaining a proper mandate from people.

If they advertised themselves properly and told us their policies, then they would be properly accountable.

But they don't do this, because they know that there are many people who are Eurosceptic who will demand they change their policies. So they avoid it. They only publish their manifestoes on their websites, where only those who dig for them will find them, instead of advertising themselves in mass media (like normal parties do) where they will face proper public scrutiny.

That's why it's not really democratic.

>>131666124
People do vote, but they vote for their national parties, which is wrong, because their national parties hold very little power in the EU parliament.

It would be like voting for your local candidate in a national election, while having no idea what party they're a member of in your country's parliament.

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>>131664382
Germommy decides for everyone.

>>131664382
Even the UK isn't democratic. Look how your court almost blocked Brexit

>>131664382
I say it is, the EU however is getting so big now that the EU parliament don't have the time anymore for lesser national questions, that's up to the local/national parliaments now.

Every country gets their turn to rule the EU i can not think of a more democratic union than this.

Personally i think the EU is the last chance for democracy, democracy itself was invented by the Greeks, was adopted by Europeans but this time all had the right to vote not only the rich and now democracy is the dominating political system in Europe.

In Europe we live well, we can dictate EU policy by voting and we are free. Europe who failed really bad in both the wwi and the wwii i hope has learned its lessons and will lead the world into the future.

The future for all men and women on earth lies in the hand of Europe now. We don't have nukes but nukes were invented in Europe and maybe it can also be un-invented over here ...

>>131664382
No, and that's the good thing about it.

>>131664382
>Is it democratic?
Yes. People can vote and change it. See eastern Europe.

>>131666755
>we dont have any nukes

what is France? and U... oh wait.

>>131664382
Sure it is:

>What do you think, more or less EU? tell us in a referendum!
>WHAT? no, wrong answer! OK new referendum, vote correctly this time.....
>NO YOU FUCKING IDIOTS! wrong answer second time around!!! aaargh, OK we'll just ignore the referendum because true democratic choice is what we say it is.

>>131666755
Swede think EU is a democracy...
Who did you vote for in theEU?

>>131664382
It's democratic as long as you don't try to understand how it works

>>131664382
Yes goy, now cancel brexit

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>>131666427
>>131666473
Okay you slowpokes, I'll try to explain it again. In a democracy you have some guards in place to protect minorities. Why? Because minorities don't have a fucking say in anything, that's why. The (homogeneous) majority decides, and if it's a bit of a split, then the losing side easily accepts the result, because, they're pretty much a homogeneous group afterall, no big deal. That's where democracy works: where you have 1) a homogeneous majority, that can be occasionaly split on some issues, but it's no big deal, because 2) losses are accepted just fine.

Now, what happens when there is no (homogeneous) majority in the fucking first place? Democracy simply can not work under these circumstances; and that's btw. the whole fucking point of the EU. If all and everyone is a minority, then noone has anything to say. But someone, someone still get's to decide, isn't it?

Look how in burgerland democracy only works on a local, maybe even state level (at best), but not on a national level. Look how democracy in Switzerland works fantastic on a local level (in communities), still works somewhat on a cantonal (state) level, and totally fails, even in fucking Switzerland, on a national level, all of a sudden...

>>131667119
Checked. They use democracy only when it favours them.

>>131666798
Yes! I agree! Democracy is for idiots who think that they know what they want. The best people to know whats good for me and my family are unelected bureaucrats who force austerity and millions of african immigrants on me. I can't wait til I'm forced to eat my own children when they die of malnutrition. Go globalist communism! Get all the tax cuts and monopolies!

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>>131667810
>Democracy is for idiots who think that they know what they want
>motherfucking context, what is it?
No, you're the idiot. The point of a democracy is this: you live in a community you know (as in: the people individually) and value, and you guys have shared problems. How do you solve them? Ideas get proposed, and then you raise your hand. Simple as that.

>>131665343
Bureaucrats, same as the nomenklatura in USSR.

>>131665514
i can only agree.
Nobody knows what the fuck they are doing in brussel.
And they refuse to be more transparent.
TTiP was the best example for lobbyism against democracy.
For the most parts they care more about money than democratic values.
Transparence and media attention could make business in the eu a little bit more difficult than it was used to be.

>>131664382
Not really people voted for a economic union and it was that until some cunts decided to try and make it the united states of europe. Also there were more than just a couple of "no i dont want to join" votes repeated on order of the EU sometimes up to 3 times to get the result they wanted other times the "nope" vote got entirely ignored. And now today we are in a EU that actually no one voted for a political scheme to destroy all nation states so only the EU cunts remain. Even today you dont directly vote the eu cunts in, you vote for "representatives" that can then make deals with EU cunts on who they actually vote for lol You the normal pleb dont get to decide who sits in the EU lol

>>131664382
Nope, and the next step to the every closely knitted union is the introduction of European Sovereign Bond Backed Security (SBBS). A new High Tech Financial Investment vehicle. Basically (Mortgage Backed Security), Packing up Sovereign Debts, with the whole European Union as collateral i.e. WE ARE FUCKED

>>131668580
http://speri.dept.shef.ac.uk/2017/01/10/european-sovereign-bond-backed-securities-a-dangerous-idea/

>>131664382
>Lions - Are they vegetarian?
As if that needed to be discussed.

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>>131666755
If you think the EU is democratic then tell me which European Party you voted for in 2014, and why, and exactly what their policies are.

And even if you can tell me that stuff, most people can't. They don't even know who the EU parties are, or what they do, because they don't advertise themselves. That's why their power is illegitimate.

>>131664382
It's unvoted and therefore irrelevant

>>131668403
>Nobody knows what the fuck they are doing in brussel.
Exactly.

>Transparence and media attention could make business in the eu a little bit more difficult than it was used to be.
I guess that's true, you could say our media should report more on European politics. That's why it's not democratic, because most people (in the UK at least, and it seems in your country too) just have no idea what the political decisions and issues being discussed in Europe ARE. If they vote for the EPP, what measures will they bring in? If they vote PES, what will they bring in? Very few people know the answers to these questions, yet they are essential if the democracy is to be legitimate.

But even if some blame resides with the media, I think some blame must be shared by the Europarties who COULD choose to put themselves in the media more. Billboards and TV appearances, like national parties do.

>>131667565
This is all idiocy.

The only requirement for a democracy is that the people WANT a democracy. So the EU should only be existing if people want it. Therefore I feel that it is the responsibility of European politicians to prove their worth (like our national politicians do) - to prove that they are worth us electing them.

Their failure to do this is why we voted to leave the EU.

>>131668056
Forget it, Swissbro. EU subjects have suffered under centuries of oppression by kingdoms and empires. They don't even have a remote remembrance of what freedom really is or means. It's futile to try to explain; the concept of freedom blows their minds immediately.

Notable exception: The Brits. That's probably why they left this shithole called EU.

>>131670136
The parliament is voted for, but most Europeans have no idea what EU policies they are voting for, or what even happens in Brussels.

>>131664382

no

The EU is just one huge disaster waiting to happen

Aside from the refugee crises and Eastern Europe not cooperating with them, if Britain does a hard Brexit and contributes nothing to the EU budget then Germany and France will have to start pouring more money into it on top of the increase in entitlements from refugees and Boomers

Eventually it'll collapse as they can't satisfy the gibs of every EU country and the moment the Euro crashes, almost all of Europe will be in a depression along with a bunch of refugees who will riot the moment the gibs are gone
Then we'll see what happens

>>131671090
Yup basically this.

>>131664382
>unelected MEPs make laws without being accountable to anyone
>laws can never be repealed, only amended with majority of votes
>all of their laws are about taxing citizens in the name of ecology and restricting human rights in the name of the "fight against terrorism"

Make an educated guess

>>131667565
>>131670380

Democracy only works if you build it around the concept of subsidiarity. it means that power has to be wielded at the "lowest" level possible; power has to be spread, decentralized. Without subsidiarity every democracy fails eventually. In other words: centralism destroys democracy.

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>>131670388
You're goddamn right

>>131664382
Not even the EU loving fags I discussed this with have ever disagreed with me when I told them the EU is not democratic.
They all know and agree that they are basically taxed and ruled without any kind of representation.
They only feel that they gain something out of it or fear that all alternatives will be possibly apocalyptic in their results, which isn't an unreasonable line of thought.
Every big change creates big uncertainties, people have to suffer A LOT in order to even consider toppling the current system.

>>131671090
>Aside from the refugee crises and Eastern Europe not cooperating with them, if Britain does a hard Brexit and contributes nothing to the EU budget then Germany and France will have to start pouring more money into it on top of the increase in entitlements from refugees and Boomers
I mean, these things are true, but I don't think it will collapse - I think it will be forced into reforming itself instead. And becoming TRULY democratic.

I mean look, they share a currency for God's sake. They're not just going to abandon that and go back to the Deutsche Mark, the Franc, the Lira, the Drachma, etc. It makes no sense. And they can't devolve back to a mere fiscal union while scrapping political union - it doesn't work, and the Eurozone crisis has proven that. If you share a currency then you HAVE to share fiscal policy, and that requires ever closer union.

>Eventually it'll collapse as they can't satisfy the gibs of every EU country
Let's be real, Germany is the most important member, and their wealthy middle-classes (who are the kingmakers, really, in terms of German politics) are happy to subsidise other bits of the EU, because their businesses are doing very well by selling to the other countries, so they get to buy their German cars and all this other materialistic bollocks.

It's really just absurd to suggest the EU will "collapse", instead I think it will be rocked to its core, and forced to reform. I think we all know the EU is headed to becoming a federation, which is why we voted to leave it.

>>131664382
Fuck off European Jewnion is anything but democratic

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>>131670388
>They don't even have a remote remembrance of what freedom really is or means.
Sadly, that's what it looks like...

>>131671446
>unelected MEPs
They ARE elected - but the problem is very few Europeans have any idea what platform, what policies they're voting for. And how those policies will affect them. That's why EU election turnout is so low.

>>131671753
That makes no sense whatsoever because democracy is QUITE LITERALLY people CHOOSING (through their democratic power) to centralise power ON THEIR BEHALF.

The thing is that the centralised power must be properly representative of, and accountable to, the people. Or else it is not properly democratic.

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>>131664382
It is a sham of a democracy, where the demos of Europe have no actual power at all, but are fooled into thinking that they have a say in shit, by voting in EU parliament members that have no actual fucking legislative power at all. They cannot form or repeal laws, just vote yes/no on laws made by EU commissions, whose members are not elected by European peoples.

The whole system is basically a rebirth of an aristocracy to rule over European masses and it must be brought down by any means necessary. No foreigners should ever fucking again rule over my people.

>>131673978
>Every big change creates big uncertainties, people have to suffer A LOT in order to even consider toppling the current system.
I guess you guys are right in the middle of Europe, surrounded by other countries just as integrated into the European project as you are (members of Schengen, the Eurozone, etc.)

For us, of course, we never signed up to those things. British exceptionalism I guess, especially since we aren't even part of the continent, and we can keep you guys at an arm's length.

But yes I think EU democracy needs a big reform - the Europarties need to make a massive effort to inform people who they are and what they do - what their policies are, and how they affect Europeans. That's the only way to give people a REAL CHOICE in EU elections. Otherwise they have no idea what the hell they're voting for. Not only that, but it will also pull Europeans together, as EPP voters across Europe will find common cause, and same for PES voters (and other party voters).

>>131664382
literal blue soviet union

>>131675210
There cannot be anything resembling democracy in a multicultural, multiethnic society.
Why? Because cultures are so different in their world views and interests that it would inevitably pull the EU apart the moment the governments wouldn't enforce with any means necessary a very specific kind of ideology and policies following from said ideology. (Communism was an example of such an ideology)

You can only give it the appearance of a democracy by indoctrinating people to accept a very limited frame on open discourse, because anything else would threaten the existence of the EU itself. (like in Communism, people can only be allowed to discuss ideas that do not threaten Communism)

That basically the reason why the EU cannot be modelled to be a US type republic with democracy.

>>131676451
By the way, the EU tried it the democratic way by having referendums about a constitution in several countries.
They evidently have already reached the very same conclusion that I have described here, because after all of these referendums failed it suddenly became "populist" to even discuss asking the people about issues over here.

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>>131670388
>a continental actually said something nice about us
strange timeline

>>131676451
The UK is an effective democracy, and we have multiple languages: Welsh, Scots, Irish. Our democracy has existed for hundreds of years, and those languages used to be even more prevalent than they are today.

Not to mention that many people in Europe know English. So that is effectively the "lingua franca" that most people in Europe know.

Anyway I'm not saying the EU should, or will, become a country right away - I don't think that is a possibility for a very, very long time yet. But I think the currency union is probably here to stay, which means some degree of political co-operation is needed. And that political institution (the EU) should be more democratic than it currently is.

>>131664382
>country votes for something in their interest
>oh no goyim, you must serve the eternal jew
>implement sanction until they change the law back
>at the same time start plot to destroy them from the inside

>>131677057
The UK, like any other country on earth that is not a failed state, still has a dominant ideology or if you want mythology that keeps your people united.
In that respect the UK would likely also fight off any people who threaten the very idea that unites your people.
The difference between the EU and the UK is that we are right now living through a phase where we can experience first hand how the new power centre (Brussels) is trying to force us to accept their new uniting ideology and destroy our old national ones.

Maybe the founding idea on which the UK is based on was forced the same way from the top, but the difference is it has been done centuries ago so it's already internalised without the use of force.

Since it is already internalised for many generations most of your people will voluntarily accept and enforce a frame on open discourse that does not threaten their own country, allowing them to take part in a democratic society without feeling that they are limited (or at least less limited) in what ideas they can express.

The EU cannot do this and I don't want to take part in this experiment on the hopes that maybe in 50 or 100 years we will be sufficiently indoctrinated to be trusted again by our governments to have a democracy.

>>131676765
The Swiss aren't really typical continentals since they're outside the EU and, much like us, fiercely independent.

>>131664382
The EU is totally democratic. The EU council is elected, and only 5 times removed from who the public votes for. Local representation is for pussies. So are guns. Europeans aren't fags at all.

>>131678153
It seems you didn't read my post:
>Anyway I'm not saying the EU should, or will, become a country right away - I don't think that is a possibility for a very, very long time yet.

There are still measures that can be taken to make the EU more democratic. I think the EU parties should be FORCED to engage in a certain level of media engagement. Also I think it was Barroso who said the President of the Commission should be directly elected by the people, to increase engagement.

>>131679046
I think ur being sarcastic m9

>>131664382

af

>>131680433
I did read your comment.
What I'm saying isn't that the EU cannot be a country, I say it cannot be a democracy, because any kind of democracy that would allow people to manifest their current world view and preferred solutions (which comes from their culture) would inevitably pull the EU apart.
This is because the cultures are too distinct at the moment.
To give you an example, let's say 50% of the UK are people who want the Caliphate and agree with it's laws and cultural norms, while the others prefer British culture.
Without making any judgement on what culture is better now this would inevitably result in a conflict that would end in either separation, forced assimilation or ethnic cleansing.
There'd be no other possible result because these two cultures cannot be wed into one uniting culture while still staying coherent and acceptable to both sides.

If the EU allows voting for individual commissioners then they will simply make sure that anyone who runs for the job follows the same elite ideology in order to serve their interest in keeping the EU united.

You know, the same way they they put into place an EU president based on the EU parliamentary election, which means the winning party just appointed Junker who ran for them.

What they evidently do not allow us to vote on is anything substantive, like for example should we have an EU army, or should the sanctions on Russia continue, or our policy regarding Syria.

The elite just decides this stuff amongst themselves and we are then presented with the facts. This will not change in my lifetime unless the EU doesn't give up it's goal to create a United States of Europe.

>>131681745
>To give you an example, let's say 50% of the UK are people who want the Caliphate and agree with it's laws and cultural norms, while the others prefer British culture.
That's a ridiculous example because there are only about 0.001% of people in this country (perhaps even lower than that) who desire a Caliphate.

And anyway you're taking this way, way, way, way too far. You're talking about complete cultural integration but I don't think that's necessary in the slightest, because the EU doesn't control all aspects of policy of its member countries.

The EU basically has to become more democratic or else the internal divisions of Europe will become too great, and there will be riots and stuff. And I'm guessing you're going to say "good, well that will lead to the EU's demise", but come on my friend, that ISN'T going to happen. The "progressive youth" desire the EU, and so do the progressive middle classes and bureaucrats, and so do many, many businesses (and the people employed by those businesses). The EU isn't going anywhere. So instead it will have to become more democratic in order to soothe the internal tensions within many countries over the Europe issue.

No one's saying the entire EU has to start speaking the same language straight away and extinguish any ideas of national identity. That's absurd.

>>131683513
>That's a ridiculous example because there are only about 0.001% of people in this country (perhaps even lower than that) who desire a Caliphate.
It's an example that I picked to explain a mechanic and its inevitable results, I did not claim that 50% of Brits want the Caliphate.
I take from it that you do agree with me on how this would work out, although the example is of course an exaggeration.

>You're talking about complete cultural integration but I don't think that's necessary in the slightest, because the EU doesn't control all aspects of policy of its member countries.
It certainly seems that this is the direction, after all we now have "agreed" to have a EU army and there are talks of having an EU finance minister.
And of course individual EU nations cannot decide for themselves anymore to refuse Muslim mass migration. That's the whole point of suing the Eastern European EU countries right now.

>The EU basically has to become more democratic or else the internal divisions of Europe will become too great
They already are, otherwise Brexit wouldn't have happened and the EU wouldn't have to sue Poland, Hungary etc into accepting Muslim mass migration.
The division is the currently diverse cultures within the EU. Eastern Europeans hate Muslims and cannot stand even having 1% of their population being Muslim.
Southern and Northern Europeans have totally different approaches towards economic activity and taxation, Southerners do not want to pay any taxes if possible.
They simply do not accept the government as an entity that should be allowed to confiscate a portion of your income, while Northerners do.
Some cultures are Anglophile while others are Russophile.

You cannot find middle ground on these issues, one side has to suppress the other. Hence there cannot be a democracy as these cultures would reach the conclusion that they cannot be one entity.
At least not one entity that is going to decide on these vital matters.

>>131685512
Well there can be democracy, you Germany and France have the largest populations and we could simply have an EU where everything is decided by mainstream German/French culture.
That's actually what we have already, these countries already dominate almost everything.
Problem is, Poles, Hungarians, Greeks and Italians area also human beings with their own interests.
They are not going to take it well that their world view and values are simply to be discarded almost in their entirety.

>>131681745
From 1000 miles away, I think you are correct.
The purpose of the EU (see Kalergi Plan) is to dilute your National identities, merge you with Africa and Middle East, to make you nothing but good goy for the Beast and the Whore riding (See EU statue in Brussels)

>>131687572
The problem is you cannot approach the JQ without having established race realism first.
And I don't mean this in a way intended to harm jews or other races, but in order to apply moral judgement in order to force them to align themselves with our interests if they want to live here among us.
Without race realism you cannot even attempt to evaluate different people, their unique interests and their impact on our societies.
You cannot ask if certain policies hurting us are implemented because they are pushed by a certain racial minority, hence you cannot apply moral judgement on them which would eventually cause them to stop acting this way.
There's even no way to call out for example blacks for certain problems they tend to create, therefore they have less of an incentive to improve their social behaviour.

Unless that happens people are just blank slates and every failure is a indoctrination policy failure.

>>131664382
no
saged

>>131664733
+1 hitler was a fag
controlled by the jews
but DEMOCRACY is to decide who runs....
THE REPUBLIC
with a constitution
with a LIMITED and DEFINED government.

The executive powers lie with the 28 commisars, not with parliament. It's just a big lie.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Commission

>The Commission operates as a cabinet government, with 28 members of the Commission (informally known as "commissioners").[4] There is one member per member state, but members are bound by their oath of office to represent the general interest of the EU as a whole rather than their home state.

They don't give a shit about the people living in the EU because they're filthy commies.