Russia vs America

>>131333919

America. It's not even close, they have more manpower as well as better everything.

America.

>>131334360
this
america is just the most productive and most educated its a fact.
yea we are fat and stupid and mexican but u still wont beat us.

Nobody wins.

>>131333919
America.

>>131334456
Our best are the best in the world in most departments of everything. We also have a lot of the most incompetent people in the world in our country. We just have everything imaginable basically

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>>131333919
The answer is obvious.

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>>131333919
America faggot

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Russia honestly, American here, were the softest humans on earth biggest cucks, most sheltered bitches on the globe.

>>131333919

No one. They dont have the army to go against us in a real fight they would have to nuke. And then no one.

>Amerisharts think they can fight against superior beings and win.

Americans are honorary Spics at this point desu.

Russia could fuck up America any day of the week. the only reason they don't is because cowardly america hides behind NATO and Russia actually wants to save Europeans, not kill them.

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>>131333919
Has that woman been holding that log above her head since 4 am?

>>131333919
America. But both countries would be fucked beyond repair, which I guess is a net positive for Russia because it's already a shithole.

>>131333919
I fucking hate ameritards as much as russians if not more, but america would singlehandedly annihilate russia. If this is not absolutely obvious to you than you know absolutely nothing about anything military.

>>131333919
No one really i mean nuclear devastation would destroy all. However without nukes it's the states by a lot. With allies near Russia it allows the states to gain an entry point and with both them and their many allies. The US also has a strong ass navy so Russia couldn't invade easily. Even if they managed to where would you invade American cities are so spread out it would be impossible to capitulate the country in a meaningful amount of time. Dixie and the mid west would be hell to go through because of the militia groups, not to mention how bad New England would be if it was winter. Also New England and the West coast have HUGE populations sparking up many militia groups that may be unarmed but still large. Overall there is no safe way to invade America you have to attrition her down and without too many allies in the CSTO Russia would have a hard time doing so.
"You cannot invade the mainland United States. There would be a rifle behind every blade of grass." - Isoroku Yamamoto Japanese WWII Admiral

>>131334748
how does america hide behind nato when nato is mostly american forces?

America is spiritually dead and will lose for it.

Many will run from their positions and would join Russia.

>>131333919
Whoever is on the defensive would win. It's effectively impossible to successfully invade Russia or America.

But in a completely equal fight with no nukes involved, Russia would win hands down. Americans are soft and have lost their ability to be patriotic. The number of Americans who would be willing to die for their country decreases by the day.

>>131334916
you are retarded

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>>131333919
>the last emperor
Kek

>>131334916
>when you literally have no idea what the fuck you're talking about, but you still have an internet connection so why not just write random bullshit and hope some retard like yourself buys it.

>>131333919
they will nuke each other. so humanity wins.

Neither. Neither force has the ability to successfully invade and occupy the enemy country.

>>131333919
If it were army forces with just guns and no other equipment? Probably Russia due to stronger morale, Russians don't just go into the army to reap special benefits they go into the army because they need to.
If it were an all out war WITHOUT NUKES? Definitely America. Our airforce is rivaled no one, it alone would completely overpower the Russian forces.

>>131334981
No, you are retarded. Americans fight for a paycheck, many kill themselves because the paycheck can not even pay for their broken family since they get cheated on when they leave since their supposed lovers are devoid of fear of God.

Russia would crush America, spiritually fortified fighters wouldn't fight Russia.

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>>131333919
The US is geographically gifted by being a fortress in the ocean. Russia is geographically challenged, the only thing that ever stopped hostile forces from reaching Moscow is the depth of the buffer, which modern Russia doesn't possess, the terrain itself is indefensible. When it comes to the navy, Russian fleet has never been a priority cause all of them are pretty much contained in their bodies of water by NATO-controlled choke points.
That, and the US military is simply better.

>>131334661
It doesn't matter if we put 400 lbs trannies on the front line. We have enough meat and technology to throw at any army in the world and win effortlessly.

>>131335270
Russians confirmed for slave-mentality.

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Russia wins.
American superiority is just a meme, like most things about them. They are not strong, their whole country is just a divided reality show. I would not be surprised if Kanye becomes next US president.
On the other hand, Russia is a silent enemy. They won't LARP around, if you want war, you'll just get killed and that's it.

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russia for best gun.

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MAGA
A
G
A

LOOOOOOOOOOOL

Why do American soldiers always look like skinny fuccboi twinks?

>>131335728
Fucking thanks Obama

>>131333919
The Jews

>>131334481
This. America failed in nam korea and iraq but could take russia?

Everyone likes to talk about how strong the Russian bear is, but America will fucking destory Russia no matter how brown its military it is. They have better equipment, more people and if Russia gets invaded, and the Americans are at Moscow, and they decide to launch nukes as a last ditch effort, America has more

>>131335728
>thanks obama

>>131335937
God bless you.

>>131335463
Front line would be mostly good ole boys and spics

>>131333919
US, it's not even a question.

Russia isn't even a shadow of what the USSR was conventionally or from a nuclear standpoint.

>>131333919
Overall, the U.S is superior in every way except alcohol tolerance.

>>131336214
We couldn't even take on Vietnam.
If there was a draft we would fucking bolt as soon as we got the chance.

>>131335788
Because the ones that don't pass basic are jelly doughnut eating fatbodies?

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>>131333919
Russia.

I love America, I love what it stands for, I love freedom to own 25 firearms and carve out your life with fairly few restrictions from the government. I love what America used to do when it fought communism and supported right wing dictators. I love living here and I wouldn't live anywhere else.

But our empire is failing, our people are diluted from their cause, and our image is tarnished. No longer do people look up to us wide-eyed and in respect. No longer are the things we do as a government entity worthy of admiration. We turned from a shining beacon of freedom into a dull buoy of corruption. We turned from a nation of men and patriots into a nation of cowards and narcissists. Nobody even knows one another here, nothing to keep us united. My neighbors are complete strangers to me, I wouldn't trust them in times of emergency.

Russia is an old bear, wounded through many wars, but with a promising future. Many an empire has its grave in Russia, like Napoleon's France and Hitler's Germany. The Russians are a people that Americans just don't have anything in common with. Russians may be more primitive and simpler in their outlook on life but they have unity, they have hardiness. Leningrad starved for 2 years. Russian botanists didn't even eat the seeds from the seed vault there, they rather starve to death. That's dedication.

Americans don't have that anymore. What we have are a bunch of fancy military tools and a bunch of mulattos, nigs and whites using them. But we don't have the stomach for a long war. We don't have the stomach to kill Russians for no reason like we kill Afghans. We don't have the heart of patriotism that fought off the British Empire and established this beautiful country.

The day we attack Russia and fail is the day America collapses. Then it becomes something else. The Disunited States of America.

>>131333919
no one

>>131335270
i wasnt too sure if you were retarded or just trolling
now i know that you have no idea what you are talking about
you are retarded my dude

>>131336503
>Promising future

It MIGHT have that if the entire government wasn't among the most corrupt on the planet. America has lobbyists that tend to fuck wtih the system but outright corruption is hard to come by.

In Russia, corruption is the norm. If Russian democracy looked ANYTHING like American democracy, they'd already be on the super-power list. As it stands, Russia themselves admitted that the USA is the only actual super-power on the planet right now.

Also
>We don't have the stomach for a long war

Are you fucking retarded? We stomahced a 15 year war before we even started to draw troop strength down, and even THEN we still have a few thousand troops still over there.

>>131333919

I see this picture everytime I visit /pol/ and I wonder who truly thinks this babushka is carrying a log greater than 150lbs vs the 400+lbs petrified log

>>131336311
>another mindless idiot spitting out lies he was told
We fucked up vietnam hard, and the libs made us pull out

>>131337262
It's a joke you autist

>>131336786
[This message has been approve by John McCain and George Soros]

>>131338054
We lost too many precious whites

>>131333919
Russia would win air + land war. Usa would win the navy section

>>131333919
Jews

>>131333919
The jooooos

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>>131338600
Already won the air war with the Netherlands over Ukraine

>>131338054
We didn't fuck up Vietnam at all, we were winning. Tet Offensive was a military failure and their weakest point, Ho Chi Minh and Giap were considering capitulation. The media and libtards fucked us over but our military didn't.

>>131333919
Murica got fucked by rice farmers, goat herders and right now is being enriched by africans and tacos.

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>>131335128

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>>131338802
"disgusting Russia children bed shows a buk-rocket system that shot down MH-17" - Dutch media

>Russian on 4chan responds

>>131338600
>Russia
>Winning an air war against the two largest and most advanced air forces in the world
JEJ

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>The U.S. has over 800 military bases outside of the U.S.
>Russia has 9.

>Russia has 1 commissioned aircraft carrier and 1 more planned.
>The U.S. has 19 commissioned and 15 more planned.

All Russia has going for them is the S-3/4/5 hundred missile defense systems and the f-35 has already proven capable against at least the 300. In the end we have the capability to surround and reach Russia. They don't even have the capability to reach us with many aircraft/troops.

On top of all that our civilian population is armed to the fucking teeth. A land invasion on the mainland United States would be suicide.

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>>131335937

>>131333919
>Who would win? Honnestly.

You want to know? The jews win.

>>131339521
Can't forget that Russia would have huge problems projecting force all the way to the US.

Russia would win.. they would rape the US with their fake news and propganda machine, and the US would end up nuking itself.

>>131333919
America.
>More powerful navy than the rest of the world combined
>Larger and more modern air force than Russia
>Larger and more modern army than Russia
>Larger population and potential manpower pool
>Better strategic positioning
>Has allies right up against Russia's border

>>131336311
>We couldn't even take on Vietnam

When will you folks learn?
Vietnam wasn't a conventional war. America sucks at fighting stuff like that.
Were we excel however, is at conventional war. America would win, but if it went nuclear, then it's hard to tell what would happen.

>>131334727
Where the fuck are all you commie fags coming from?

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>>131335992
>Korea
I'll let you get away with Nam but not the Korean War. We defended South Korea and even though our invasion of the North was repelled we managed to save South Korea from becoming a part of the pariah state nightmare that is North Korea now. About the opposite of what happened in Nam. Also, we won Iraq, Saddam and his military got BTFO. We are just bad at state-building, at least in regions populated with mudshits that chimp out and start insurgencies and counter-insurgencies against the other sect.
>Canadian military
You honestly can't say shit. The only things you're good at are JF2 snipers and Air Force commanders that moonlight as serial rapists/murderers.

>>131341172
Always been here, am Russian in America desu.

>>131335463
>It doesn't matter if we put 400 lbs trannies on the front line
You missing something. All those liberals and shitskins will be like hippies in 60s. Euro Americans will bleed while other half of the country protest the war and shit.

Same idea with the secession of my state, Texas. It's too late to bail, half of the population are already spics. They will cheer for annexation of the new state to Mexico, not defend it.

>>131334885
You're highly overestimating American militia and not even thinking about soviet history of militia.

>>131341708
>not defend it.
Like you and your border?
Cucks.
Texans are the worst meme-Americans in history.

>>131333919
>implying US could invade Russia
>implying Russia could invade US
>Greatest Navy on the planet
>Best geographic location for defence
Neither

>>131333919
the Russian army is a paper tiger, America would fuck them up mercilessly and send their military capability back into the stone age within 30 days in a conventional war. why do you think they resort to espionage and propaganda cuckery?

if it goes nuclear, everybody dies.

>>131342356
>the Russian army is a paper tiger, America would fuck them up mercilessly and send their military capability back into the stone age within 30 days in a conventional war
Exactly what Napoleon and Hitler thought

>>131334748
>america hides behind NATO
lulz, America IS NATO, dumbfuck.

>>131334590
Just threw up a little bit what the fuck

>>131335440
>The US is geographically gifted by being a fortress in the ocean. Russia is geographically challenged, the only thing that ever stopped hostile forces from reaching Moscow is the depth of the buffer, which modern Russia doesn't possess, the terrain itself is indefensible. When it comes to the navy, Russian fleet has never been a priority cause all of them are pretty much contained in their bodies of water by NATO-controlled choke points.
>That, and the US military is simply better.
based Russkie is based. we can be friends.

Pestrovia.

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Is this even a serious question? As the grandchild of Russian immigrants to the US, it doesn't matter if America is cucked or not. We have the strongest military in the world, and any beta cuck can press a button that sends drones out to fuck shit up. We have plenty of savages that fight on the front line, blacks are useful when lead properly and kept in check. It's when you give them freedom that they fuck everything up with lesser morals and intelligence. There's no military on this planet that could even give us a halfway decent fight, let alone beat us.

>>131342489
No one could have known that the Russians were willing to destroy their own country.

>>131335440
Just imagine what we could do together, Ivan.

>>131342728
Everyone knows the Russians are fucked in the head.

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>>131342489
The problem with this is both of those great men had time lines. They had other worries that made it so they needed a quick decisive victory so they could focus on other enemies elsewhere. America in this situation, it'd be one on one. We can just repeatedly bomb the shit out of their cities after defeating their army on the field. Doesn't matter if they surrender in 5 months or 5 years. Sooner or later the population will have enough and demand the government surrender.

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>>131342728
So what do you think should stop them now?
With both Patriotic Wars as they call them, they fought an enemy they didn't care much about to be honest. In fact, being French was considered cool in Russia during Napoleon times.
This time is different. Several generations of Russians were raised on anti-US hate that sparked in 1950s, got in the shade during late 80s - early 90s and floated back since 2000s. Russian people actually HATE America and Americans in particular. They DREAM about war with America to finally prove how powerful Russia are and the US steals the world leadership from them.
I was born in USSR, lived in an ex-soviet country most of live, been many times in Russia and know the people.

>>131342278
>implying US could invade Russia
Russia has to defend both their eastern coast and their western border with the Baltic states as well as ensuring that their borders with Finland, Ukraine, and Belarus are defended as any of those states could be used as a route for a NATO invasion. The US could certainly invade Russia, the US could likely collapse the Russian government in a few months, however I will admit that actually occupying Russia is impossible and any actual destruction of the Russian state will do far more harm than good as nuclear weapons will certainly be lost during the collapse and could end up anywhere.

Put simply the US could invade and defeat Russia but even ignoring the casualties of such a war and the threat of a strategic nuclear exchange the US would still lose far more than they would gain as their other enemies could easily get their hands on nuclear weapons.

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>>131342715

>>131342489
>Exactly what Napoleon and Hitler thought
Apples and oranges, friendo. Napoleon and Hitler didn't have the manpower, technology, and intelligence apparatus of the American state.

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>>131343264

>>131343082
>America in this situation, it'd be one on one
How do you know? It's would be a huge geopolitical even, random shit that can't be accounted will start to pop immediately

>We can just repeatedly bomb the shit out of their cities
In case you didn't know, Soviets used to have the best Anti-Air systems and Russia improved it well. Your assurance about air superiority reminds me of Göring and his lesson

>>131343050
Hitler was even more fucked up than the Russians

>>131334456
>america
>educated


pick one

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>>131343264
I'm not particularly sure what I'm looking at it. Obviously it's a bomb being dropped, probably from a drone. An American bomb, I assume? Irrelevant though, I suppose. Rather that is an American video doesn't matter, because America does have that technology, in abundance, and isn't afraid of using it. Someone should post the glory that was the MOAB drops Trump recently did.

>>131333919
The female is resting the log on her shoulders
It has an entirely different effect than hoisting it above your head, which she could not do

Also different woods has different densities

>>131343173
>Russia has to defend both their eastern coast
Moscow would be toast with 10 minutes if we gave the order, and there's literally nothing they could do. They would not see it coming. Not that we ever would, of course, unless provoked. Like if someone tampered with our elections, for example.

* cough *

>>131333919
Australia

>>131343282
>Napoleon and Hitler didn't have the manpower, technology, and intelligence apparatus of the American state
You better be shitting me. Both powers had highly trained and experienced armies. America has nu-male contractors and anti-war leftists with almost no full-scale war experience since Korea

>>131343475
Hitler did nothing wrong

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>>131343394
Once the Russian military is dealt with by the American military, they won't have the means to stop us from destroying their outdated anti-air technology. Get rid of the defenses, bomb the shit out of their cities. As for the whole, maybe we won't be alone, well nobody can predict the future, this thread was in relation to America vs Russia.

Let's assume however, various countries betray each other and the war isn't one side. None the less, Russia is surrounded, America benefits form the fact that it's an island fortress, like England, except much much larger, much more populated, and has a huge military budget. A massive navy to protect it. And no strong neighbors to threaten it. Time on either side, it'll benefit the country that can't be invaded, not the country that can.

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>>131333919
America is currently wrecking Russia economically, sooo. Neither side wants a direct confrontation, so they wage war on other planes.

>>131343394
>In case you didn't know, Soviets used to have the best Anti-Air systems and Russia improved it well. Your assurance about air superiority reminds me of Göring and his lesson
yes, except we have secret tech at least 20 years ahead of anything we're selling to our allies (F-35 *cough *) and we're not cucked Nazis. We've been at war since our birth, our history for the last 200 years has been war.

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>>131343491

>>131335646
iv been to Russia and i must say it was an absolute shit hole

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>>131343838
Yeah I still can't say I know exactly what you're trying to show me. Words are a useful invention, they help conversations progress naturally, so that both parties understand each other. A random video, and what kinda looks like a brown guy holding two shuttlecocks doesn't really explain what you're trying to express.

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>>131343833
Russians also have this supposed "secret tech"

>>131333919
Both would destroy eachother, but Russia would pick itself back up like it always does. America would be thrown into chaos.

>>131344054
Drones are used by isis to blow the fuck out of Amerikikes, Russia will have tanklet drones used by pro WOT players blowing the fuck out of any US troops.

>>131344054
Well clearly with the symbol on the top right corner of the web and the file name should help you

>>131344108
Apparently they have some shit that shut down the power grid in parts of Ukraine but I'm not sure how much that would effect the u.s. military.

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>>131344108
Oh gosh that's terrifying. I'm not too worried about actual Russian military weapons. It's not even close when you look at the military spending of both countries. I'll acknowledge the picture is from 2011, you're welcome to find more recent one, I was too lazy. I can't imagine too dramatic of a change however. It's still hugely favoring America.

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>>131344207
If you think ISIS is a threat to the US military, you live in a fantasy world. If you think the Russian military is a threat to the US, well, that's more realistic, but still the numbers favor America massively. I'm doubtful they'd stand a chance.

>>131343838
yeah, these dune coons are using commercial quad copters that could easily be jammed by transmitting garbage on the frequency that the transmitter uses. of course a dune coon army won't have that capability, but any real army would.

>>131344337
>making Jewish contractors into multi millionaires, having troops in like 100 countries, and making it a good paying welfare system makes us strong!

Really showed me.

>>131343833
>except we have secret tech at least 20 years ahead of anything
I don't know mate. Super invisible F117 was shot down by "outdated" soviet AA system from 60s
And just now, super advanced american rocket couldn't take a soviet plane from 70s down on a first try.
I'm not saying Russian military is stronger, but you're highly underestimating the consequences.

>>131343534
>Moscow would be toast with 10 minutes if we gave the order
No, no it couldn't. Beyond the fact that a strategic nuclear exchange could be easily detected it takes several hours between nuclear weapons being launched and actually striking their targets. Even if Moscow was glassed Russia would likely retaliate in kind ensuring that the US and potentially the rest of NATO are destroyed in a nuclear exchange. All you would be doing is wiping out 95% of the population of Europe and the United States, and with it about 95% of the white population in the world.

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>>131344612
I'm glad I did. I mean I don't do it solely to feel superior, although as an American I was brought up with a sense of superiority since childhood. That being said, I also bring it up as a fair warning to the rest of the world. Careful, America doesn't fuck around when it counts.

>>131344337
This is the most dumb argument. American military is extremely overpriced.

>>131344653
Ah yes, the old trick to get more funding. I love how your generals love to embellish our capabilities and yet slip up from time to time and call it as is it. That Russian military is vastly inferior to the US alliance.

>>131344653
The F-35 has already proven capable against Russian air defenses.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.businessinsider.com/f-35-combat-mission-syria-2017-4

>>131333919
In the nuclear age it's either the one striking first or MAD.

>>131344902
Stop lying Amerishart, the article never says that any Russian AA system was used against an F-35.

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>>131333919
lol italy has a bigger economy than russia suck my big american dick

>>131333919
Nobody. dont believe the hurr hurr America strong bullshit here. I worked at army I seen all the caskets that come in weekly. Companies of dead early 20 something kids from Afghanistan. Doesnt matter if you got best gear in the world some dude dressed as civilian hiding behind a tree on a hill can easily kill and route a bunch of dudes not expecting it.

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>>131333919
> Holding it above your head = the same thing as resting it on your shoulder. It engages the same muscle groups rite guis

For fucks sake you niggers are so dumb sometimes. Go lift.

Russia can't afford a war. They literally don't have the money to fucking pay the expenses of an offensive war.

>>131344794
Like 2 million enlisted soldiers across various branches, more aircraft than the rest of the first world put together, more aircraft carriers than the entire world put together, a navy capable of patrolling every ocean in the world. Good luck beating that.

>Russia has never lost a war...suck on that.

>>131346285
Chechnia, Afghanistan, Finland, WWI, Japan and that's all only in one century

>>131333919
We are absolutely capable of smoking them, unfortunately we have been a country run by pussies since Vietnam. We are scared to kill civilians, and in modern warfare that is the only way to win. Without civilian deaths no modern war can be won. At the start of ww3 if we want to win, start by killing every and all field journalists. More anti-war propaganda comes from the home team then from abroad.
Also fuck OP for one posting.

ITT: dumb fucking burgers bringing up their military spending as if that determines whether they'd win or not.

your army is a joke and hasn't seen success in fucking forever. all your new military equipment is a joke, so much so that fucking serbian anti air shoots down your shitty planes.

your officers have consistently proven themselves incompetant, your tanks are outdated and underproduced in comparison to newer russian models that have actually been under production, your jets are overpriced and shitty, everything about your military is just extremely expensive for shitty product, which is essentially what america is as a whole.

you can say shit about the russian economy being shit and all but they have 1. numbers 2. patriotism 3. a sense of fucking unity in their country 4. a majority white population. on top of this, their military equipment doesn't cost 600x as much as it should when it does the exact same thing as a russian piece of equipment.

spics and niggers wont fight your wars americlaps.

>>131334456
>most educated

>>131343838
there is absolutely no way a phantom could lift that much metal

>>131333919
Australia

>>131333919
nobody. the only way we would ever get into a war with russia directly is through a nuclear exchange and all life on this planet would be wiped out.

strap in boys, its gonna be proxy wars and coups for the next 100 years until some rogue nation launches a nuke.

>>131346063
A single super warhead would destroy the American fleet.

If you honnestly think ww3 will be a conventional war you're deluded.

>>131344337
99% of this is now diversity programs, wasting strong chemical cocktails on sand people who keep respawning, paying for 10000000 welfare recipients, maintaining a bloated, outdated force based on doctrines that haven't evolved since ww2.

The USA couldn't even beat china in a conventional war 60 years ago. They're utterly unprepared. Their best bet, and what they most likely have been doing these past decades is focus on nukes with an insane payload to discourage Russia from striking now. But that won't last forever.

>>131351670
Cuntfirmed

File: awqw4gf2352tdesg23t.jpg (144KB, 1024x659px) Image search: [Google]

144KB, 1024x659px

>>131333919

Sorry to say it but USA Seals have no luck against RUSSIA WOMAN FARMER :)

>>131334748
Found the retard.

>>131334949
You're an idiot. Even the WWII Japanese emperor stated that an invasion of America would be a death sentence because there would be a rifle behind every blade of grass. Americans own more small arms than every military on Earth combined, including our own. I'd love to see Russia try to invade us and think they wouldn't leave with a bullet in the ass.

>>131334812
thread concluded

>>131334748
literal brainlet

>>131333919
That log is about the extent of Russia's Military might a few days in... cause all their shit will break.

>>131334661
Na. The people signed up aren't cucks. Most of the rest are... but we'll pay for those dumbasses who signed up to go and die for us while we drink $5 cups of coffee and bitch about gender neutral bathrooms.

>>131333919
Russia would win because their women can lift as much as 10 American men.

Pic related

The American military is ridiculous, nothing can match it in conventional warfare.

>>131346973
ok abu

>>131356336

That's actually an Austrian woman.

File: 1482488272008.jpg (49KB, 540x540px) Image search: [Google]

49KB, 540x540px

>>131338802
>this post

murica honestly. all they have to do is offer citizenship to foreigners kind of like in Nam and some Iraq and you'll have an unlimited supply of meat were you get to choose from and can get the best out of every country.

>>131335440

Is that Bottled semen?

>>131356439

>can't invade the japanse homeland
>nuke them

>can't defeat rice farmers
>leave and let them win

>can't defeat cavemen with smallarms
>leave and let them come back

The United States of America has only the technology, but not the will required to win any conflict. The moment the casualty lists start rolling in, the public throws a tantrum. Such is the problem with nominally democratic societies, people are only looking out for themselves.