NAP and State

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>>131153428

Congratulations, asscap, you just used logic for the first time. Welcome to the White side of reason.

>>131153428
>>131153681
*destroys both of you with my AGS 30 Grenada launcher*

fucking fools

>>131153813
Did I break your nap?

>Who enforces the NAP
NAP is a minimum set of rules that practically everyone wants to live by if that means others will also be subjected to them.

So NAP will be enforced by collective use of force against those who break it. This collective force could be seen in the form of decentralized community security or globalized security insurances.

>why aren't they stopping the state for breaking it right now?

Because criminals are stronger than us at the moment.

Look at mexico, the state is being overpowered by drug cartels, why aren't they stoping them for breaking their laws? Because they can't.

>>131153681
Plenty of socialist countries for you to move to. What's stopping you?

>>131154134
What do you do when the community cannot agree on whether somebody has broken the NAP?

>>131154134
>If the NAP is the law of the land, everyone becomes compliant and law abiding.
>So NAP will be enforced by collective use of force against those who break it.
HAHAHAHAHA

>Because criminals are stronger than us at the moment.
So what will stop groups of incredibly rich people from violating everyone's NAP?? I mean, this is simple fucking shit dude, how can anyone be so stupid as to become an ironic ancap??

Answer this question, you absolute fucking idiot:

What would stop a group of extremely rich, coin shaving kikes from building nuclear silos in their back yard and nuking shit strategically in order to gain control? Ancap basically wants to abolish our current government so some other form of government will take its place. Permanent AnCapitalism is as delusional as believing in stable communism, if not even more so

>>131154454

Oh you statist scum, don't you realize that once people are free from the shackles of law and order, people will all become morally objective and be willing to use their time and resources to play vigilante with their fellow men?

You really think people will conspire and collude in a completely lawless society? Shit nigga, you must be a statist kike shill, move to a communist country

>>131154134
>why aren't they stoping them for breaking their laws? Because they can't.
So what you're saying is that in an ancap society, most likely than not, people wouldn't have the power to protect themselves because someone could achieve control through a state thus destroying the premisse? I'm sure you hear this argument a lot, but can you explain how I'm wrong?

>>131154454
First of all, NAP is a minimum, NAP is literally don't steal, don't kill, don't fuck up other people's property, every society in history had this minimum in some way or another. So it's not really something people can disagree about, unless you got concrete examples.

The removal of public property leaves little to no room for doubt, the owner of the community and the contracts make the rules.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mnGy8L_DfY

Min 14 and after that.

>>131154465

>So what will stop groups of incredibly rich people from violating everyone's NAP??

Because people become rich with order and commerce, violence adds uncertainty. Those who have the most to lose are usually those who have the most to gain with order and peace.

Your argument would be like saying what would stop Michael Phelps from trying to change swimming rules, he's already winning, he's the first interested person in keeping the rules like that.

And fuck off with your insults milka brainlet. Are you a nigger or what? Can't engage in conversation without chimping out?

>>131155026
No ideology is ever 100% safe from a stronger force taking over and subjecting them to another ideology.

But at least capitalism builds the necessary wealth for people to participate in science and fields that guarantee an edge in times of war, and to get a well armed population.

>>131154134
>Look at mexico, the state is being overpowered by drug cartels, why aren't they stoping them for breaking their laws? Because they can't.

It's because they bribe the government not to try lmao.

>>131154631
halt dein maul, danke du untermensch

>>131155047
>>because people become rich with order and commerce, violence adds uncertainty. Those who have the most to lose are usually those who have the most to gain with order and peace.

Dude open a history book

Wars a racket , go twll the oligarchs who own russia how unprofitable violence is

Jesus mate , I hope your 15 or something because otherwise youre hopeless

>>131155047
>>Your argument would be like saying what would stop Michael Phelps from trying to change swimming rules, he's already winning, he's the first interested person in keeping the rules like that.

Again , real world examples

Rich people have to live on the same earth , doesnt mean they arent activepy destroying it for short sighted profits so they can feed sensory pleasure and hedonism

>>131153428
>Who enforces the NAP
The individuals involved in any given dispute, or arbitrators employed on their behalf.

>and why aren't they stopping the state for breaking it right now?
AnCaps are too few and too autistic to ever realize their ideas.

>>131155177
>No ideology is ever 100% safe from a stronger force taking over and subjecting them to another ideology.
It seems to me, that in your society, people have the right to break the NAP

>>131155279
War is a risk vs reward game, like practically every human interaction.

Russia is a shithole where oligarchs get massive war power thanks to their ties to the government.

If they go to war is not with their resources, but with Russian people's.

Once you have to go to war with your own resources the paradigm changes to what I explained. You're not contextualizing properly.

Can't tell me to open a history book when there are thousands of factors that you're not taking into consideration for history to happen that way that have little to do with anarcho capitalism.

>>131153681
C'mon son, at least recognize the most obvious satire.
>>131153813
I read that as "ass grenade launcher".

>>131155543
Depends
If you (and whoever who works with you) are strong enough, you can even establish a state on top of this ancap world

>>131155543
So I assume you concede that no ideology is safe from someone taking over it, given that this answer has nothing to do with mine. Good.

Now, about your new statement:

How many people do you know that break the laws of your country? I could name a hundred at least.

People break laws all the time, it's all about enforcement of said laws, and I don't see why a private police within a gated community would be worse at it than the police, who are always focused on precisely the people who don't contribute to their salaries.

With anarcho capitalism, at least the police would patrol your area, not the nigger slums, because you don't pay them to protect others.

>>131155047

>Because people become rich with order and commerce
So speculation, subversion and manipulation is "order"? The market is NEVER in order. Without state regulations, people can become unbelievably powerful real quick, and some people can even be threatened to lose everything. You're not answering my question at all, instead (as per usual) you give me a tangent. There are MANY reasons as to why people would use extreme (and unmatched, in the case of my example) in order to reach a goal. Religion is one of them. Why would billionaire Saudis fund wars in their neighboring countries?

Also, in the fantasy world you live in, any sort of volatility would mean loss for everyone. which is probably the stupidest shit I've ever heard from an AssCrab in my life.

Also, you act as if the perpetrator of violence would be spotted. We get fooled by false flags all the time, and we have unprofitable, TRILLION dollar intel agencies acting around the world. What the fuck would make you think that we'd be able to spot false flags in a lawless world? (inb4 voluntary intel agencies)

Also, if your theory that "rich entities thrive off of peace and fairness" is true, how the fuck do you explain Imperialism? Why would Great Britain, the biggest force on the globe, go and violate NAP around the globe?

>Your argument would be like saying what would stop Michael Phelps from trying to change swimming rules, he's already winning, he's the first interested person in keeping the rules like that.
This is unbelievably stupid. Michael Phelps CAN'T change the rules, because there is a "state" to enforce the original Rules. Are you pretending to be retarded?

>And fuck off with your insults milka brainlet. Are you a nigger or what? Can't engage in conversation without chimping out?
Oh yeah, cause telling someone to "move to a socialist country" is a great argument
>O-o-only niggers insult :( d-d-don't bully me

>>131153428
Ancap and NAP only works if everyone agrees to it and abides by it.
To no one's shock, not all of humanity will agree to the same set of rules.
>Yeah but I can shoot you with my recreational nuclear grenade missile!!!
You assume it's you VS one other person. If I've got an entire group of people who aren't ancap, you lose.
>Yeah but collective community will enforce the NAP!!!
And inevitably someone or some group will lead that collective community to patrol and protect it against my group or other non-ancap groups. Inevitably a hierarchy will form and authority will be delegated and government will be slowly reinvented.

>>131153428
>He doesn't have a premium anti state insurance

>>131156055
>buy antistate insurance from a volunteerist business organization
>after accepting your money the insurer decides you're too high risk to protect
>no state exists to enforce contracts
>they don't issue a refund, even though your policy said you could get a refund at any time
>the court system is entirely voluntary
>they don't consent
>you're too poor to hire a private military contractor to exact financial revenge

Truly this is paradise.

>>131155944
>So speculation, subversion and manipulation is "order"?

Speculation is necessary for economy, an old woman stacking gas in summer predicting a rise of prices in winter is speculating. Speculation is a force that drives humans to create wealth and allocate resources properly, people trying to predict the future are completely necessary.

Subversion and manipulation? You need to be more specific. But we don't advocate for a lawless society if that's what you're implying, we advocate for a decentralized, private law society.

>Why would billionaire Saudis fund wars in their neighboring countries?

I already answered this here >>131155579
, because they are not going to war with their own resources.

>any sort of volatility would mean loss for everyone

Explain how this is a problem of anarcho capitalism that is not replicated in other ideologies?

>how the fuck do you explain Imperialism?

Same answer as before, but also, imperialism is reduced as commerce is embraced.

>Michael Phelps CAN'T change the rules, because there is a "state" to enforce the original Rules.

Neither can corporations, but he could certainly use his power and influence to lobby for a change of rules. You see, when power is centralized, it's quite easy to know which pockets to grease. So much for regulations preventing people from acquiring power.

Anyway, way to ignore the point, I asked you about motivation, not capability. What motivation does Phelps have to change the rules if he's already winning?

>Oh yeah, cause telling someone to "move to a socialist country" is a great argument

Certainly. You vote with your feet and with your wallet, and you voted to live in the most Capitalist country in Europe. Like a liberal who says he will go to Canada if Trump bans Mexicans, why not go to Mexico, why go to the whitest, English speaking country he can think about? Because he's a hypocrite.

>>131156554
The anon you responded to there questioning the validity of speculation might not be well versed enough in econ to understand the principles behind it.
I think he sees one person making a wise move while another errs as being morally wrong.

Broken down simply its thus:
The economy is a mass of individuals making choices. Some of these individuals as actors seek to exploit others. This is true of everything in nature. Hierarchy consists of the powerful upper echelons exploiting their prey on lower echelons. While it is true that on the microlevel an individual may fall prey to someone else's influence through economic action, a country as a whole with a growing economy has a net benefit for everyone in it on the macro level.
This isn't a system of fairness, but it is a system that is natural, and arguably right.

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>>131154134
>this much mental gymnastics to defend your cucked and inferior ideology
stop following jewish meme-ideologies anon

>>131157493
Most Libertarian and AnCap principles would be perfect, if the world was entirely white Europeans, with a 100% literacy rate, no drug addiction, everyone had higher education, spoke the same language, and had conservative personality traits.
Its not completely worthless, its just extremely idealistic.

>>131156554

>Speculation is necessary for economy
Okay, I never said it's not. It is NOT order, though. Speculation LITERALLY (I use this word very rarely) dependent on volatility, and volatility is unpredictable thus making Speculation a deviation from Order. Speculation can also be abused very easily. This may also be of no importance to you, but I literally trade the markets for a living, so I can easily give you examples of instances where a lack of regulation could have caused ABSOLUTE collapses of entire economies.

>we advocate for a decentralized, private law society.
So Lawlessness. There is no such thing as "private law". My law could be that you need to suck nigger dick everyday, but it doesn't make it an actual enforceable law. There are No laws when law is privatized.

>Subversion and manipulation?
Yes, like the ongoing strive to erase the White race from the planet by the hands of Jews. Brainwashing people into degeneracy in order to have more control over people.

>because they are not going to war with their own resources.
LOL, what? Yes they fucking are. I'm not talking about the Saudi Govt, I'm talking about individual business men and Saudi lobbies donating money left and right for interests. This is obviously not concretely provable due to lack of transparency so we can close this now. But as you stated, conflict is Risk/reward. Why wouldn't a major Oil producer cause conflict in a region, causing supply to drop thus multiplying your margin by a lot? The odds of that happening are so high that it would be riskier NOT to do something like that.

>Explain how this is a problem of anarcho capitalism that is not replicated in other ideologies?
You're the one claiming that volatility would result in a loss for all not me. It does NOT happen, anywhere. Volatility creates a zero-sum scenario every single time.

>>131156554
>>131157902


Part II

>Same answer as before, but also, imperialism is reduced as commerce is embraced.
How? This is a claim that needs backing, because it doesn't make any goddamned sense. You think you're smarter than British Imperial Elites?

>but he could certainly use his power and influence to lobby for a change of rules
HAHA. No, he couldn't, ever. I'm genuinely laughing. What motivation does Goldman Sachs have in changing the rules if they're already winning?

>You vote with your feet and with your wallet bla bla bla...
So if I'm not in favor of abolishing the State, I'm not a capitalist and should move to Venezuela? Again, proving just how fucking stupid you are.

>>131157725
Precisely because the world is not like that we need complete ability for dissociation.

A drug addict person does not affect me until I start assuming his externalities, and society assuming his externalities does not just enable his behavior, it encourages it.

The state is forcing us to integrate with people we would never be friends with, people who are leeching us, and it's time to put an end to it.

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>>131153428
>Who enforces the NAP

Individuals retaliate if practicable if their NAP is broken, against the entity that has broken it

>why aren't they stopping the state for breaking it right now?

because we're too fond of the comfy yoke and too averse (largely from evolution) to a large degree of uncertainty

Ancap society would be an inflexible hell hole. Some form of state will always rise out of statelessness

>>131157947
I agree with you almost entirely. Where I differ is how I see man's innate need to form collectives, and how that carries forward in creating ever more powerful hierarchies. People naturally form systems of government, a group will always have a leader role, the leader will delegate tasks to others, etc. At some point people will agree that letting someone else take on the role of decision making is better as a matter of convenience, and suddenly the state exists. I don't believe that people of their own volition would elect to live as individualists, we'd likely resort to a federation of states with only a few exceptions choosing to be outsiders. No different from how we have some people live as homesteaders, or in isolated compounds today. Though I suppose the only difference is those people wouldn't be paying taxes.

Even the founding fathers knew that people who truly wanted and adored freedom were an extreme minority. Upholding freedom is a noble ideal, but most people don't want it.

>>131158427
And who enforces that the NAP is being enforced correctly?

>>131158619
Nobody but themselves. Just like nobody enforces that the state does its job properly.

>>131153428
IF YOU CAN'T DEFEND IT YOU DON'T OWN IT. MIGHT MAKES RIGHT YOU COWARD.

>>131153428
The NAP is a principle, it's not a law. It's enforced by the people who agree with the principle and live to that standard.

It means both being peaceful yourself and defending the freedoms of others when under threat.

People are stopping the state, it's just happening very slowly. It takes time to debate with people and change their minds on core values, as people are convinced in growing numbers the power of the state will diminish.

>>131155047
>So it's not really something people can disagree about
Niggers don't seem to agree with it.

>>131154454
David D Friedman has a great book on this called Machinery of freedom, you can read it free online. He has talks about this exact point, how can law, punishment and arbitration exist in a free market society which abides by the NAP and doesn't have a government to back it up.

It's really not all that complicated, I'd highly recommend this video on his talk about it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IcxGXcmr4ig

>>131157902
>>131157902
>and volatility is unpredictable thus making Speculation a deviation from Order

That is natural order, you're arguing for artificial order. Nobody can predict a hurricane, that does not mean there's no some sort of predictability in economic behavior and interactions.

Anyway, my point was that speculation is positive.

>There are No laws when law is privatized.

Law requires moral and enforcement. Me saying that you cannot smoke in my house is private law, you try to smoke, I will kick you out.

Now, if I had a larger house, harder to patrol and control, I'd be interested in the people living there collaborating for us to get security to enforce our private law. Extend this concept ad infinitum and tell me this time, concretely, why private law cannot exist.

>Yes, like the ongoing strive to erase the White race from the planet by the hands of Jews.

And how do they do that? Through democracy. Which we want to abolish completely. They're not exterminating themselves, they're voting for you to be exterminated.

>I'm talking about individual business men and Saudi lobbies donating money left and right for interests

Okay, so you're claiming that criminals might use their power to fund force which pushes their interests forward. This is already happening with the state, so I will ask once more, how is this exclusive to Anarcho Capitalism?

The example you describe is about generating scarcity. Scarcity is an issue in every ideology.

>You're the one claiming that volatility would result in a loss for all
Where did I claim that? I think you confused lawlessness with volatility, term that I never used.

> You think you're smarter than British Imperial Elites?

I think British Imperial Elites had a concept of wealth different to today's. One of zero sum, the only way for me to be richer is to steal your shit, etc. Commerce has proven itself superior since then to wealth creation, it's about time we embrace this.

>>131157921
>So if I'm not in favor of abolishing the State, I'm not a capitalist and should move to Venezuela?

There's certainly quite a few degrees between abolishing the state and Mussolini or Venezuela. A reminder that you posted a socialist in the first picture, one that would be way more disgusted with Switzerland than with most other European countries.

I'm saying, that if you were exposed to an anarcho capitalist society, you would purchase property in the most capitalist community you could find. You chose formulas that work even if you don't know how or why they work.

Your choice to be in Switzerland tells me clearly that even if you voted for A, you will always try to live in B, B being Capitalism, A, whatever your ideology is. Most anti-capitalist friend I have went to live to Hong Kong. According to him, not because of Capitalism, but because they pay more. Funny how it works.

>What motivation does Goldman Sachs have in changing the rules if they're already winning?

Precisely, they are always supporting candidates that keep the status quo.

>>131158583
But this interaction of hierarchy, which I agree, happens, can be limited by contractual obligations.

I'm not an individualist, in fact I, multiple times, have argued how I think the state is a tool for individualism, I think I speak for all ancaps when I say we have deeper values than simply freedom, I just want to get rid aggression in the interactions I go through.

I think the state is not just someone taking decisions for others, the state is a monopoly of law and violence over a territory. I'm perfectly fine with voluntary hierarchies subjected to arbitration.

And yeah, i agree most people like order in their life, not freedom, not even me, but again, we ancaps want this order to be voluntary.

>>131159031
I'm a race realist yet I refuse to believe most niggers don't want any kind of order and peace.

If you steal but call the police when someone steals from you, then your morals are shit, but at least you acknowledge the necessity for law.

>>131154631
>get born in lawless society
>just scam everyone cuz watever
>apparently no one will ever figure it out since no one can talk to each other to conspire against my scams
>one of the only rich people in your society
jews will love it

>>131153428
I compromise. I am willing to accept to pay tax as long as it's spent on police, judges, army, fire department, EMT, and instead of having congress men and president, we have a bunch of people that's job is to organize referendums. No politicians. Bare bone essentials for every state.

None of that fucking money spent on welfare or healthcare or any other shitty ass nanny state bullshit.

If we just let the poor and sick die for a month, they will die off and we will have it better off.
Population is too damn high.

>>131160579
>If you steal but call the police when someone steals from you, then your morals are shit, but at least you acknowledge the necessity for law.
That's completely wrong. If you steal but call the police when someone steals from you, you don't acknowledge the necessity for law, you acknowledge the police are more powerful than you and will do your bidding for free.

>>131161410
All taxes are slavery. Any occupation in which the employees and company do not have to compete for customers will inevitably become corrupt. Also, forcing people to pay taxes using the threat of violence, even if it's for "bare-bones" services, is immoral. And who decides who gets to use violence to enforce tax collection? You?

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>>131161410
>I am willing to accept to pay tax as long as it's spent on police, judges, army, fire department
sounds like statism to me, remove that flag plz.

These anti-ancap threads are always amazing. On one hand we have the hyperbole of "lol McDonalds military" and on the other "lol you guys wouldn't even be able to make roads." Neither hyperbole demonstrates any notion that the speaker has knowledge of how ancap works.
>>131153428
I enforce my NAP, if I don't enforce it then it doesn't mean dickshit, same principal applies to community wide NAPs. Similarly if I or the community lack the power to enforce my/our NAP then it is also meaningless.
>>131155351
If you want a real world example of NAPs, look at how countries interact. Best Korea makes threats and posturing while toeing the line of aggression and gets slapped down because of it. Look at how the US escalated into WW2 with the destruction of Pearl Harbor. Maybe politics aren't enough however, look at how any territorial animals defends its territory.
>>but you still don't have roads and what McDonald's the Warlord?
If I have good trade flow with my neighbors and neighboring communities, why would I not want to invest in the creation of a road to ease and possibly increase trade? As fod McDonald's, they don't matter as long I'm not violating their NAP and have sufficient ability to enforce my own NAP.If push does indeed come to shove then I either contract out a mercenary group to remove McDonald's from their position or I become a sub-contractor for McDonald's and abide by their way of running things.
>>131153681
>>131154465
>>131154631
Is Switzerland the new leaf?

>>131153428
The all mighty McNukes of course!

>>131159313
>Now, if I had a larger house, harder to patrol and control, I'd be interested in the people living there collaborating for us to get security to enforce our private law. Extend this concept ad infinitum and tell me this time, concretely, why private law cannot exist.
Because that's public law and is a state. When people get together, draw borders and agree on how to govern themselves, and enforce that governance within that borders, it's a state.

>>131153428
*sees your NAP*
OWO what's this?

>>131155047
of course phelps would change the rules

1. Rules that disadvantage small and medium swimmers who don't get that much medals every year, preventing them from winning any medals at all. He has 90% of medals already, but he wants 100% medal share

2. Abolish silver and lower medals. Winner takes all the money, no prize redistribution.

3. Training pools are only open to those who already have medals, so that his competition has no resources to develop.