Universal basic income. Good or bad?

>>130995899
Useless. I've done the calculations many times, and there simply isn't enough money in the budget to give everyone a UBI worth shit. The most you could do is enable crackheads.

>>130995899

Bad. It's paying not to rebel against the establishment in the coming age of automation. They will give shitty scraps, while they will own the productive force of the world, and making big infinite bucks with it.

Do you think having money for bangbros, pizza hut and beer pays trillions of dollars in profit? It should all be for the nation, not for the elite fags.

>>130995899
Government funded mediocrity.

>>130995899
bad
it devalues the currency

>>130995899
Helicopter money is dumb as fuck.
Instead of give random money the state should make jobs.
Pay for something, even cleaning street, digging holes, washing dicks and whatever shit.
There is ALWAYS something to do.

>>130996267
This is one of my opinions.

The other is that in the wake of automation, capitalism will put people out of work for more efficient cheap labor. The people then get income because if they don't, the now cheap services would serve no one.

But if you rebel, and set up a state that outlaws automation to keep people employed, you're essentially halting capitalism to give people job handouts. Is that any better?

Yes, that couple be a wallet full of deutschmarks for all we know

>>130996824
This
State should reward you for doing stuff not just for sitting in your home and drinking

>>130997140

They will simply kill and get rid of the neets, because they are now worthless baggage.

They don't produce, and they are a potential risk of political uprising against the ultimate scheme ever: intelligent work machines that don't rebel.

Under a fascist state, that worked for their people, automation could be used to produce food, medicine, weapons and stuff for the people. Profit doesn't matter that much when you have the possibility of national ascencion.

Yes, it will primarily benefit young males that dropped out of society.

Age of automation should go along with a new nationalism. There is no other way people will benefit from it, only bankers and fat cats.

Money should be given to ill people, not NEETs. Genocide all NEETs already

>>130995899
Well it's the future one way or the other, it's only a matter of when not if.

>>130995899
Bad.

The point of UBI is to provide working people with temporary cushion in case they either temporary lose the job or lose the workability in certain circumstances. (e.g. If rendered disabled by a nigger)

But the Universal part is just retarded and does more harm because it enables freeloaders.

>>130996824
This, I'd rather prefer state giving help in finding the job.

Though it walks straight into opposite idiocy with barely paid sweatshopping.

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>>130995899

It's welfare essentially. A Cashless Society having UBI is a powerful form of Control.

KB with important intel:

>>130997961
>>130997961
>>130997961

>>130998112

Why are you so mad that some of us don't want to work? I thought you enjoyed your fulfilling career.

Also, it's not like we're living like kings. I get a few hundred a month and spend it on rent, food and internet. You can travel and go to bars on your nice salary.

>>130996267
Automation is the future. Get out of the way.

Is it worth it becoming a NEET fag? I'm about to graduate from school next year but I dont want to get a job really. I have anxiety and Im pretty aspy. What do I need to do to get on that NEET life? Pls teach me.

>>130998594
kek, why should you get anything if you don't want to work?

>>130995899
Compared to what?

In a vacuum it is flawed because it is either so low that it is meaningless or high enough that many people will have no incentive to work. Not to mention it becomes an immigration honey pot.

However, compared to the welfare system we already have, it could actually save us money without making the incentives worse than they already are.

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It will never happen, the elite will never pay people for existing, it goes against everything that our socioeconomic system is founded on, even if tens of millions are starving on the streets (and I feel those days will come), it will not be implemented.

Don't you guys get it yet? The rich don't care about us, they never have, we are their worker bees and when they don't need us anymore they will let as many of us die as they see fit. The future is going to be very dystopian, many will commit suicide or just check out completely.

>>130995899
The idea is good, but will it work in the long run? Well some things that I think would need to be in palce:
- Only after the age 21 (when people are expected to be in a job or started an higher education). This to prevent NEET's straight from High School.
- A sum that would barely cover the cost of rent of a dorm in cities or a small studio apartment in cheaper places + food and public transport, + some extra that you would have to save over several months if you wanted to buy new (cheap) clothes/useless shit etc.
- REGISTRATION so that the people recieve them spend the money in the country that pays for them (stimulates the economy). You would have to live in the country.
- Everyone would have to get it. No matter income, the same fee once you turn 21.

Good because:
- You can survive without having to bow down to the state our a boss.
- Less bureaucracy
- Much easier to go in-between jobs, young people new to the job market, students etc.

This wouldn't work in the US, and not in Europe once we reach American levels of multiculturalism though. If Norway stopped all immigration at once, I think it would work here.

>>130998930

Why not? I'm the one suffering because I don't get the luxury of a successful, fulfilling job. I'll never get to raise a family or go boating on the weekends while you live a great a life. Why can't you let me be a loser in peace?

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>>130998985
>Don't you guys get it yet? The rich don't care about us, they never have
Why should they?
What makes you so special dude?
Work=money
Sub par work= sub par money
Don't like job? Look for new one
It's really quite fucking easy but a lot of people around seem to make it seem like your employer is asking you to lift gold bars for 8 hours.
Climb the fucking ladder, it doesn't take months, it's easy to be a bad ass at work for a few months, try being a bad ass for a few years, you'll notice how easy raises are, how much more respect you get for being good enough to do your job well and covering everyone's asses.
You don't deserve free money buddy, sorry your parents and the education system failed you or tricked you into thinking you were going to be a CEO by wishing for it hard enough.

>>130995899

it's a decent idea worth trying. it will help alleviate the criminality.

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>>130995899
IF
YOU
WANT
IT,
EARN
IT

how about voluntary only taxes?

>>130995899
It wouldn't be much at all to get by on. Would the stock market still exist? I see no other way to accumulate wealth, assuming universal unemployment.

>>130995899
>let the government control everyone's wages and means of survival
>surely this will not spell the end of our remaining civil liberties

>>130995899
Good for neets and those who don't give a flying fuck about society.

But it literally is the elite paying people to not rebel.

They know we are fucking sick of this system so one of their last resorts is to "Give em free money"

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say no to the jwo.

>>130995899
welfare or ubi or whatever you call it is catastrophic without breeding controls

>>130998953

>it is either so low that it is meaningless

Not true. I would greatly appreciate a monthly $100 check from Uncle Sam

>>130998985

They will when we're standing at their doorstep with pitchforks and dirty bombs

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>>130995899

>>130995899
You've been talking about it forever. Someone just try it and see how it goes already

>>130998985
you already have a welfare system dummy.

>>130996138

>budget

found the retard
>>130995899
>>130996267


It's obvious that crypto currency will make distributing basic income a breeze. Where will be get the money from? What does that even mean? Give everyone basic income. Everyone. Basic income would be useless to the rich. The money would pool and go back to the poor. The poor will use the money to rev the economy on levels you have never seen before.

>>130999577
>lazy nigger mooches deserve to be paid

the people working whose paychecks are stolen to finance your lazy ass are the ones who are suffering. if you want to be a loser then you get zero. you're not entitled to anything; especially in america.

the whole idea doesn't even make sense, economically. what if everyone took the offer of neetbux and there were no workers? who would finance your existence then?

>>131001588

>the people working whose paychecks are stolen to finance your lazy ass are the ones who are suffering

Isn't working fulfilling and worthwhile in itself? How are they suffering if they get the reward of knowing that they add value to society?

>you're not entitled to anything

Is anyone entitled to anything?

>what if everyone took the offer of neetbux and there were no workers

Why would they? I thought people work because they like it.

Also, most people don't appreciate the neet life. Having just enough to make ends meet for a single person doesn't interest most people.

>>130999601
>>131000490
>>131000768

>Implying I ever said that UBI was a good idea

All I said was that UBI isn't viable and will therefore never occur because of the current socioeconomic power structures.

>>130995899
No, starve the bums.

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>131002252
ok, you got me. i should have known you were a troll. no more (You)s

>>131003021

Cuck bitch

>>130995899
Unsustainable. All society will need to be restructured for the robot economy, not just giving out a few gibs to everyone who can't get a jerb anymore.

These would be the same people who would be advocating for universal basic feedbags for all the unemployed horses when the car was introduced and started to catch on. It's not going to work.

>>130995899
I'm against is but I can understand certain arguments for it. For example, none of us choose to be born and live in this world, yet we are expected to work and toil for whatever country we end up being born in. Some just would rather never have been born at all, but when suicide is outlawed, living becomes a chore and I can empathize with that sentiment that a UBI would make it less so. Regardless, the major flaw of it is the fact that someone, most likely a coerced taxpayer would have to pay for this. Otherwise, annexing and farming foreign countries to support it would be the only other way.

This is for australia. I think we should all just be employees of the government. Theres thousands of government departments working to achieve some sort of goal. Why not just include society? The welfare system just gives money to people if they jump through hoops. We're all part of society and contribute in our own way. Why not just engage EVERYONE for the purpose of moving forward.

Hope that makes sense.

>>130995899
better than a welfare state, worse than replicators

>>130996824
This.

I'm too ashamed to claim NEETbux, but if the state gave me a job I would be happy.

>>130998645

It is, without nationalism is a shitty future.

>>131003832
this would be sweet. no interviews or hassling bullshit. they just plop you in a job the next day. that would kick ass.

bad

>>131003620
>suicide becomes outlawed

What are they gunna do? Kill me? Jokes on them lol

>>130995899
I do think it is a possible with the prospects of automation.
It is NOT possible with a bunch of shitskins who don't have the same cultural mindset and just churn out 8 shitskins due to the lack of natural predators.
Only white people are able to be regulated through morality alone. Shitskins are just parasites that leech off the system until it dies.

>>131003935
Yes, but at the same time it's communism.

>>131003935

What the fuck is the point of that? It's a consensus among economists that the new deal wasn't beneficial.

>>130995899
>Universal basic income.
>Good or bad?
Who decides how much and where does money come from?
Bezos and Zuckerberg ain't paying for it.

>>131004072
No, just force you to live and work, pay taxes and remain a working cog in the machine.

At this point I'm ok if it ever happens. I'm just tired of working my ass off to feed laquanda down the street who's shitting out 5 kids

>>130998112
the issue there is, if you only get paid when you don't work, you have an incentive not to start working. If getting an entry level job means you lose your benefits, it's like you're getting taxed 80% on minimum wage jobs. It's a perverse incentive.

That's why the 'Universal' part is important. That and it cuts down on bureaucracy

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>>130995899
Everyone's favorite Kike Sam Harris shares his thoughts on universal basic income.

https://youtu.be/JP_KVfuiLXQ

https://youtu.be/cPK38deKcMc

>>131004262
I was making a joke, friend.

>>130996267
this. people will get enough money to live in a shitty apartment with enough money to stuff yourself with mcdonalds and beer all day.

>>131004232
Debt?

>>131000709
India and Canada did.

new business startups increased threefold, high school graduation rates increased, hospital admissions decreased...

And that was before automation was driving everyone from truckers to lawyers out of business

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>>130996138
>>130995899
Gas the crackheads and deport the darkies then we can start talking about universal income. A socialist state can only work with a large helping of nationalism on the side. Publicly owned farming could work, but we would have to publicly hang anybody corrupt.

>>131004262

That's currently the case as social pressure prevents most suicidals from ending their lives. I'd say this is more coercive than law as this norm is enforced by society which comprises everyone you know whereas laws are merely enforced by the state.

>>131003021
>>131003170
don't you mean kike bitch?

As far as the US goes the state does not have the right to use my tax dollars to feed niggers and Communists, or for any social programs for that matter.

This country is infested and it will soon burn, and then the constitution will be adhered to again.

>>131004830
I like the way you think.

>>130996824
I'd be fine with this, I don't mind working, when I've had a job my work ethic was impeccable.

I got stuck taking care of my grandmother for a while due to a broken leg and no one else to take care of her and now I just can't find a job.

>>131004741
Theres probably more countries than that.

>>131004853

No, he's a pussy who hates his life and wants everyone to work and be as miserable as he is. He spends most of his time getting fucked in the ass by his employer and he wants everyone else to do the same.

>>131004232
>>131004697
easy way to make bezos and zuck pay for it - print it. When you print money, anyone hoarding money takes it in the shorts. So a side effect if done that way would be to make capitalists invest again.

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>>131004830
>that quote.
There's a difference. Under socialism, materialism is mandatory. In capitalism, pursuing materialistic ends is optional, and generally economically unsound.

>>131004901

>the state does not have the right

Yes it does. Might makes right, pussy.

Fiat money doesn't create wealth. Productivity is what makes you rich.

Charles Murray on the Universal Basic Income

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C766f_DFNwI

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>>130995899

I'm NEET I want free money to buy pot noodles and glowsticks.

>>131005303

>In capitalism, pursuing materialistic ends is optional, and generally economically unsound.

Then why is the world's capitalist capital, the USA, also the most materialist?

>>130995899
Funny how they have made us all into niggers

>>130995899
It's not good or bad, it's essentially useless.

UBI will only lead to inflation to a point where the amount given could no longer sustain cost of living.

It might work in the short term if you periodically increase the amount given, but in the long term, you are going to devalue the currency Zimbabwe style.

To put it simply, Zimbabwe thought printing more money for nothing = wealth increase. How is that any different from giving away money for essentially nothing?

The value of money is not only based in supply and demand, but also effort used for it to be earned.

>>130995899

Sadly, it won't work well with the current culture and irresponsible people.

It would require an economic overhaul and how we view certain commodities or housing.

I'm not saying it isn't a bad idea, in fact communism / socialism has at the basic levels of housing, food and healthcare are a good thing...

The bad thing is when you find out that half the population doesn't want to work much at all.

If everyone wanted to learn, work, love and be benevolent, we wouldn't be working 60 hour weeks just to keep the system running.

We could cut down the work week to around 20 hours per individual and the rest would be up the individual of what kind of work they would want to do.

We simply don't live in a world where everyone want to help and give as much as they want to take and abuse.

>>130995899
communism

>>130995899
The state dosent produce or create anything and with the monopoly in currency with a central bank, adopting this police not only will lead to inflation it will fuck even more the market and the productive members of society

>>131005793

Not it wouldn't, moron. It's a matter of wealth redistribution, not printing money.

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>>131005303
What makes the USA more materialistic than, say, China?

Would work in an all white conservative society. Then again, so would communism. Neither are realistic with actual demographics.

>>131006101
meant for
>>131005680
I'm retarded.

>>130995899
Good. There's already not enough jobs even for people who actively want to work. Give people what they need to survive and then they'll only need to work for what they want. Bam, instant relief on the job market bing bong bing so simple.

>>130995899
Worst thing ever

>>131005680emphasis on optional in the US you have the choice under capitalism and the best choice isnt always the popular choice hence many people buy materialist bull shit even when it is economicly unwise

>>130995899
Doesn't matter, current system or UBI will collapse anyway, and you won't get to decide if it's implemented or not, just dont let it make you weak and dependent

I favour UBI with a partial amount, so that you'd still need a basic job to cover living expenses, this extra bonus (paid to all, even the rich) can give people some breathing room to learn new skills, pay off old debts, change their job, change location, hire someone, etc, allowing them to improve their position, but not enough to live care free and wasteful

then increase/decrease this amount slowly as the economy adjusts so that there is still control

UBI will inflate the currency and devalue slightly, but there's no way you can take taxes from the rich to pay everyone in society, a better thing would be encourage the rich to invest in creating PRODUCTIVE jobs for others since they have better experience at doing these things than gov

right now the economy feels more like 8 people passing around 6 tokens, which is why everything has slowed down, there's not a lack of things to do, but lack of ability to do so because money is tight for all, and people hang onto what little they have.

>>131006030
You simply don't grasp the concept of perceived value do you?

Let me give you a simple scenario.

A trust fund kiddie who has never worked a day in his life is more than willing to pay $50 on a roll of toilet paper, because you know... daddy's money

Meanwhile a burger flipper earning $7 an hour would see $50 as feeding his family for a few days

>>131005986

Socialism isn't a problem if everyone agrees on something.

for example, if everyone agreed to pool their money in at a party to buy food, everyone can enjoy the food.

The problem is when only half the people put money in the pool and the other half don't want to work buy continuously demand more from that pool.

It's a human problem. Not a fundamental issue with socialism itself.

I pay taxes, I want my roads and bridges to be taken care of.

so if there is any problem with socialism, the problem is running out of other people's money and work force.

>>130995899
good for the first wave of people who get it, completely and totally detrimental to their children, their children's children, and the state's property that would be their children's children's children.

>>130995899
>1 post by this ID

>>130998930
>kek, why should you get anything if you don't want to work?
Some people can't work or can't get hired, I am legally blind so getting hired anywhere is out of the question.

only works with hyperinflation every generation

terrible and stupid.

it solves the problem of how to figure out who gets help by just handing money to everyone. literally zero effort program design, and it shows.

Ideally, assistance programs should be designed as mostly self-selecting with additional eligibility rules that are:

a) easy to verify
b) easy to evaluate
and
c) hard to manipulate.

Most current programs fail at all of these. handing people a debit card they can buy whatever food or cash items with has nearly zero self-selection, there is no incentive to stop using it until your have to be removed from the program because you don't qualify anymore.

if we replaced food stamps with packages of gubment food, people who don't need it won't bother to pick it up if they want to buy the food they want to eat, anyways. in addition, this simplifies administration because less energy and evaluation needs to go into calculating who can and can't afford to feed themselves, because anyone who can, will probably want the "nicer" privately sold food, and anyone who can't, will obtain the free gubment food even if the numbers on paper currently leave them unable to get help even if some other factor means they really can't afford to eat. (for example, food stamps doesn't count wage garnishments except child support.

same with housing, paying a chunk of or all of someone's rent has little to no incentive to stop taking, but housing projects and communal shelters are their own disincentive to live there when you can afford to live somewhere nicer.

>>131006030
I'd say it's one or the other, just depends on how they would go about it.

>deflate currency by creating more money from the Fed
Cool, now all all our interest rates immediately go up sky high and you can never expect to get a house at a decent cost; current landowners will be the forever landowners, and milk will be $20 a gallon in 4 years. Unless...

>tax the living shit out of income and property taxes
Skip the corporate tax bullshit; that's flow through tax and is avoided by investing back in company assets. I do enough M&A work to know how that goes. Anyway, we don't change the Fed interest rate, so now we have a relatively static pool total, so now it's just straight up wealth redistribution because everyone above the UBI payout rate is a net contributor and not a net user.

Either way it's shit and should be called shit. Either way, it removes incentive of employer based raises over time ("your UBI increase will cover that, kid") and removes the incentive to get a job in the first place.

Some Asian econ/philosopher put it pretty well from what I remember. I know I'm butchering it here but it was something like "suffering is the only thing that actually makes living worth while; struggling against something is the only thing that makes people happy."

>>131006480
forgot my other crucial point

pay UBI quarterly, so people are forced to plan wisely what to do with their bonus

paying them weekly or fortnightly will make them plan only 2 weeks ahead and dependent

>>131006163

American culture is centered around consumerism, hence Mall of America, Black Friday, fetishization of rich people via reality tv/celebrity worship, etc.

I don't know much about Chinese culture, but I don't think they annually celebrate trampling people over cheap televisions.

There's also American Psycho by Bret Easton Ellis shows the inside of 80s yuppie culture, the pinnacle of American status at the time. I don't think that novel could be written in China.

>>131006354

>emphasis on optional

Under capitalism pursuing materialistic ends is encouraged.

It's like you're defending a shitty parent by saying the children should have known better than to drink soda and eat candy with every meal.

>>130996138
If you are paying the UBI with taxes you are a fucking moron.

>>131007128
Riiiiight we totally won't have another extra program to pay for the people that blow their money. Stop by a Walmart on the 1st and hang out by the checkout. Check out what cards are being used.

>Taking away the primary incentive to work and be productive.

How to crash your economy overnight.

>>131007405
We could also pay for it by taxing Wall Street through Financial Transaction Taxes :^)

>just like Sweden in the 80's

>>131005289
Brezos and zuckerberg will still have their 89 billion dollars. You cucks will get a few hundred a month, live in some shitty apartment. And wait on your check every 1st of the month. UBI is a welfare. You are all official niggers now. Section 8 housing and food stamps.
>Muh freedom.
You'll still be slaves to the Jew. Only now he has you right where he can control you.

Bad. The elites want the underclass to demand it, so they have a rationale for replacing them with shitskins.

>>130995899
Friedman suggested this years ago as the "negative income tax"

i think it could work as long as those who are taking money don't get a right to vote

>>131007541
Wall street isn't a money tree idiot. Stock trading gains money based on company performance which depends on worker performance.

No incentive to work crashes everything. Heavily upping takes on the rich and crashing the economy just drives the rich overseas.

Good luck redistributing wealth when its locked up in Switzerland you tit.

>>131000949
>Where will be get the money from?

really makes you think

>>131007359
nah, no extra help for them, some people will be poor no matter what, they will have to borrow from friends/family and learn how to manage their money properly til the next quarter and do better
at least with UBI, we can say we tried :)

if it's done carefully it doesn't have to turn into hyperinflation in 2 months, and allow people to get their shit together

and then UBI can be adjusted to balance with automation

>>131006526

What does that have to do with wealth redistribution?

>>131007105

>"suffering is the only thing that actually makes living worth while; struggling against something is the only thing that makes people happy."

And the conservative reveals his ethos.

You know, not all of us need an authority figure to situate ourselves in the world. If banging your head against a wall is what gives your life meaning and you need your boss to do it for you, go ahead, but why do you have to force your bullshit on the rest of us?

>>131007204
>Mall of America, Black Friday, fetishization of rich people via reality tv/celebrity worship, etc.

These are things that concern stupid people, which, despite being a significant demographic, do not compose the entirety of the population. They are the ones trapped by their own means. Those who see past it are free.

As for China, their materialism makes America look like Trappist monks. There are even travel companies that will lure you with cheap deals on trip packages, but on the bus ride they'll stop at stores owned by the company and force you to buy something.

>what are tax rebates without actually working

>>131007541
>We could also pay for it by taxing Wall Street through Financial Transaction Taxes :^)
Face it. You niggers ain't getting no free lunch. Get a job and move outta mommy's basement.

>>131007239
Well you got to tax the UBI, so it's kind of like it finances itself.

>>131007405
Is the primary incentive to work living in a shitty sharehouse, eating and not really doing much else? Because thats what ubi will give.

>>131004830
Nope nope nope
Socialists get helicopter rides, no exceptions.

>>131007941
>Wall street isn't a money tree idiot. Stock trading gains money based on company performance which depends on worker performance.
>No incentive to work crashes everything. Heavily upping takes on the rich and crashing the economy just drives the rich overseas.
>Good luck redistributing wealth when its locked up in Switzerland you tit.
Lefty virgin fags believe they have a right to steal other peoples money.

>>131008355
For a whole hell of a lot of people; yes.

Sad but true.

>>130996138
There would be if we stopped giving out corporate welfare.

>government now controls every aspect of your life
>can do whatever it wants to you because it controls where you live, how you live, and even the food you eat

UBI is total slavery to the government.

>>130998032
>he unironically thinks useless people will be paid to do nothing instead of put to the sword

>>131008084
>what does that have to do with wealth redistribution

The intrinsic value of that wealth diminishes if it is ever redistributed for free.

Take the value of farmland, when white farmers worked hard in Zimbabwe to get the farms to work, it prospered. Those farmlands are now seized and "redistributed" to blacks who have no appreciation of the land and it is reduced to nothing

>>131008704
onlyifyouletthem

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>>131007405
>>131007105
>>131007096
>>131006526

No, you are all misunderstanding economics.

The system of socialism pertaining to specific goods or services must be separate to that of capitalism.

This is why roads and hwys are serviced by tax payer dollars and not putting a television in everyone's house.

A pool which everyone puts their money into, mandated is a tax. This tax money is then used for specific services which are a necessity to the function of system. Once money is taxed into a pool, the pool itself is not considered monetary.

Free basic housing, free basic food, free basic internet, free basic transportation.

It would all have to be part of a tax fund agreed upon by people. Regardless if you use the services or not.

The problem is, too many people are not working, not learning skills needed to work.

General welfare through socialism isn't the problem, the problem is lazy people who look to exploit and steal while avoiding work.

This problem is something that is within the upper classes and lower classes of society, mostly.

The middle class is pinched as squeezed as the new age slave.

>>131007941
I'm being facetious you dumbass, I already know FTT's demand taxing the principal and stop market trading outright. It's bar none the worst possible tax concept ever created.

>>131007941
You rely on automation a lot, like it's some ethereal answer. I've done automation installs (meat packing process plant) and even being the quantitative person analyzing even a single situation is difficult; anyone who thinks we can "track" automation is lying to you. Take for instance a 5 person packing line, two situations that I saw:

>5 person line, get robotic arm that palletizes boxes
>takes away 1 position outright
>2 jobs on the line are low enough workload to give to one person, if the line slows down
>same net output/hour of product
How do you want to track that when

>6 person line
>get new midprocess machine that speeds up
>precious bottleneck person position even worse
>put two people there
>line output up 60%, but added another person
>more people on the line from automation

"Automation" can even fall into just reorganizing a work place; worker position still eliminated, no new machine. It's just a buzzword to me, and I worked as an IE for 5 years.

Other than that, as much I would love to force the hand of "you're going to fucking budget," do you realistically see anyone follow through?

>>131008084
I'm not forcing anything on you, just not wanting you to take from me; the activity is entirely dependent on you taking what I have for no purpose other than your own incentive to reduce effort

>>131008161
Like I said above, facetious.

>>130997541
>Under a fascist state, that worked for their people
What is a pipe dream?

>>130998112
>The point of UBI is to provide working people with temporary cushion in case they either temporary lose the job or lose the workability in certain circumstances. (e.g. If rendered disabled by a nigger)
Wrong, you're thinking of what welfare was originally intended to be.

UBI is like the current state of welfare, except fixing the issue of welfare often being more porfitable than getting a job by making it universal, so any earning go on top of what you currently get from UBI. It anticipates a smaller job market with a bigger population, thus rendering many people permanently out of work by sheer numbers.

>>131007941
>No incentive to work crashes everything
So does no ability to work. Unless all the output of huge industries shifts to catering to the super elite, they will collapse due to your average layperson not being able to get a job, having been replaced by machines.

And no you retard, there won't be more jobs. If I have my software developer, my machinist, and an assembly line worker or two, I can develop and make machines to do thousands of jobs, and all companies need to do is have a couple of repairmen or hire out repairmen who will keep the machines doing thousands of people's jobs for them.

That isn't more fucking jobs. It blows my mind that people can't do the fucking math. You don't need a repairman for every single machine that replaces a low skill worker. That's less jobs, and the gains in designing them will be small considering you only need small teams to have all the skills necessary to design one, as opposed to a factory floor where you had a shit-ton of people involved in the process.

Doing nothing about automation is only slightly less retarded than going full on communist with this UBI system that will never work.

>>131000949
Except they will all spend, but no one will produce. Except for the rich... Also the gove hates crypto currency, it is completely illogical to think that that kind of distribution is a good idea. You want to seem all futuristic and hip, but you fail to see the fact that no government on Earth will give away money they can't track.

For everyone is this thread that's against UBI and favour more jobs, what do you say about the amount of "fake" jobs we have already?

Many jobs, especially ones in the public sector are the equivalent of paying a man to dig a hole, then full the hole back up and dig again. Sure he has a job and something to do but he's not actually contributing anything.

>>131009025
>General welfare through socialism isn't the problem, the problem is lazy people who look to exploit and steal while avoiding work.

And that's the problem to the whole thing. Socialism would be great if we were all robots that inherently felt for the greater good above ourselves.

But we don't. We never did. We've killed each other since we wet cavemen, still steal (either by actual theft or whatever financial device you want to claim here). The only thing that has been consistent is self-preservation, and even bothering to label it "capitalism" is showing the erred notion that you think that natural laws somehow don't apply to us.

>>130995899
sjot

>>130995899
i wanna fuck that wallet

>>130995899
socialism only works when the vast majority are high performing low consumers who will almost never rely on socialism.

>>131004830
some people think monsdragon coops are doable.

>>131009161
What happened when the plow was invented?

>>130995899
What good is dollar if you live in an area that doesn't sell a lot stuff, doesn't have a lot of investment opportunities, and lacks proper and fair representation?

UBI is really two things

1. Shut up money. They give money so people will stop with the gibs, just for a little bit.

2. It's voter bait. It's something to dangle in front of poor people to keep them voting a certain way.

UBI is a political scheme to quite the growing poor and to get thiee vote. It's the Great Society trick, just give 'em a taste and they'll be coming back for more

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>>131009343

Except if we were in ancap society I'd put you in a cage for my own protection.

>>130995899
It'd be nice if we weren't so fucking far in debt but nope.

Still gotta work. If we enter a period of world peace and prosperity and humanity's golden age is upon us, I'll vote go for it but it's a system that people would exploit in 2017.

>>130997140
no. your society has to evolve as well. the unskilled worker has no place in an automated world except off grid farming for himself and family.

>>131009273
We'll there's two things that I think you're talking about here. First, mundane, actual useless jobs (like the 5 attorneys the USAF will use to review a contract THEY wrote for a land agreement), and then there are service (labor overhead) jobs that don't directly touch production processes.

The first needs to be eliminated, absolutely, but the second shows the efficiency of specialization. The production line employee isn't good at sales or doesn't have time, so with a certain amount of production occurring, it's best for everyone to hire the sales Chad that fucks pizza or whatever.

Other than that, there really is a need to slow down the birth rate to prevent a large, nonworking population. Honestly... we just don't need that many people anymore.

>>131009697
Cute, I'll bet your shit welding job (because you did everything all on your own) would be able to hold a grown ass human. Did you make the lock yourself, too, locksmith? I'll bet it's very complex :^)

>>130995899
Hell yeah fuck working... okay I'd probably still work but way less

>>131008122

>These are things that concern stupid people, which, despite being a significant demographic, do not compose the entirety of the population

Lowbrow culture dictates life for 80%+ of Americans. This neglects fashion culture and keeping up with the Joneses which covers the rest of Americans. Nearly everyone in this country is obsessed with having new shiny shit just for the sake of it. This is normal here because it drives our economic engine and you faggots defend it because your cucks who have been convinced by the likes of Friedman to defend the corporations that paid him to shill.

>There are even travel companies that will lure you with cheap deals on trip packages, but on the bus ride they'll stop at stores owned by the company and force you to buy something.

That's a scam for foreigners and has nothing to do with Chinese culture. Face it, American culture is centered around consumerism to the point of excess. Nothing is ever enough in the land of the free because the system we've created encourages us to buy more and more because it's what gets us ahead. As a result we can't have fulfilling lives.

>>131008962

>The intrinsic value of that wealth diminishes if it is ever redistributed for free.

That's not true. $100 does not lose value when it changes hands in the transaction of purchasing a penis pump. The value of the penis pump may change depending on where wealth is distributed within a population, but the changing of hands of money doesn't do anything to its value.

>Take the value of farmland, when white farmers worked hard in Zimbabwe to get the farms to work, it prospered

Shit analogy, the value of the farmland didn't change. All that happened was shitty farmers stole the land from good farmers which resulted in underutilization of the land.

Taking $1000 from a rich guy and giving it to a poor guy just means that money will be spent on something else.

>>130997541
this.

automation has its uses and could very well uplift the totality of mankind but only if the people are willing to cease endless consumption, endless wealth, and eternal greed.

done wrong its the terminator movies at wirst, elysium movie at best.

>>131009025
Incentivizing laziness is not going to help anon, and that's what a UBI does. Fuck, I'd stop working today if I got it, and i know that's a problem for the economy.

>>131009034
I'm assuming the automation thing is a misquote? Should have picked up on the facetiousness but i know people who argue it with a straight face.

>>131009161
Google "agricultural revolution" and apply the economic results of that to automation. The problem is VERY similar: new machines make large swathes of the population's jobs redundant. There will be new jobs to fill the gap. New demands, new needs to be filled. Writing all those workers off permanently as an economic drain is not a viable long term solution dummy.

>>131009273
Society needs to be restructured. It won't be pretty.

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>>131009591
Oh my lord, can you not fucking see the difference between a plow and what is essentially a metal human?

One is a fucking sheet of fucking metal. The other is sophisticated hydraulics mimicking muscles and visual hardware and software to tell those hydraulics what to do.

You are not just outperforming humans in one physical category, but all physical categories, and there's only so many thinking jobs as I've pointed out.

There's saving labor, and then there's fucking destroying the very concept of labor.

>>130998594
none of us want to work. the quality of life higher then a fucken rodent is why we do it.

>>131010055
>rich guy reinvest it on something productive
>poor guy buys beer,cigs, and cable bill

>>130995899
it's good. Society is coming to a point where we literally don't have (and don't need) as much jobs as before.

Society is literally beginning to run itself. Giving universal basic income should be the natural next step.

"WE SHOULD SPEND THAT MONEY TO CREATE JOBS"

kek. Yes, let's spend money to create needless jobs... instead of just giving that money to people.

>>131010055
>That's not true. $100 does not lose value when it changes hands

That's where you are wrong. $100 in the hands of a innovative entrepreneur investing into his venture will grow in value. That same $100 in the hands of a drug addled celebrity will be wasted on a couple grams of crack

>>131009591
>What happened when the plow was invented?
People ate better and more of it.
No one lost a job over a plow.
>Jethro Tull laughs at you.

>>131010199
Fuck, sorry, yeah it's a misquote. Saw "auto" and thought it was another anon.

>>131010540
Oh fuck, read the thread if you feel like posting this pedestrian bullshit.

>>131010199
>The problem is VERY similar: new machines make large swathes of the population's jobs redundant.
Okay, that's one similarity.
>There will be new jobs to fill the gap.
And that's where the similarities end. All of those jobs will be increasingly in the sphere of thought, and there's only so much that can be done in such domains before redundancy renders you obsolete. There are only so many writers because there are only so many readers, only so many animators because there are only so many cartoon-enthusiasts and kids, etc.
>New demands, new needs to be filled.
And unless those demands are either incredibly physically complex or intellectual, those demands will all be met by new machines.
>Writing all those workers off permanently as an economic drain is not a viable long term solution dummy.
Oh I'm sure the powers that be will find some way to dispose of the excess humans, if we want to talk about viable. Conjuring up unknowable jobs for millions when we have mass production is not a viable solution or realistic vision of the future.

a man is nothing until he aquires some thing.

>>131010055
>Lowbrow culture dictates life for 80%+ of Americans.

I'd very much like to hear your source on that. I do know plenty of people who are hopelessly consumed with materialism, but also plenty who invest their money wisely and only buy what they really need. Of course, the latter group is generally much better off financially, which is sort of the point of capitalism.

>That's a scam for foreigners and has nothing to do with Chinese culture.

It's almost like you've never been to China. The cities there are cramped with department stores and chain restaurants, and everywhere you look people are clamoring for the newest sedan or smartphone. Compare the cultural homogeneity of China to the USA and you'll see what I mean.

>>131010232
>>131010716

Jobs in entertainment and creative mediums will explode. R&D. Maintainence. Etc etc.

People not working are people draining. We'll invent jobs for the sake of it if we have to because consigning swathes of citizenry to permanent 'drain' status puts the nation in question at a HUGE economic disadvantage compared to the nation that does not do this.

The economy does not exist in a vacuum. We'll damn well find a use for humans post automation or we'll surrender hegemony to those that do. Those are the only ways this goes.

>>131010232
>there is only so many thinking jobs

The more automatization the more thinking jobs there will be. But even automatization will produce manual labor work. Guess who gets paid more, the poor sap sweeping all day or the machinist who plugs parameters into a machine that does all the work?

>>131007884

Yeah I'm beginning to see why voting was restricted to land owners in the past.

>>131010522
the poor guy is helping the economy by buying cigs, and paying his bills, he's helping to keep money circulating, to keep things moving. I'd argue it's worse for him not to be able to pay his bills or buy little luxuries like cigarettes.

>>131009591

Less people needed to work mundane jobs.

>>131010956

Because they were jews?

>>131010572
>$100 in the hands of a innovative entrepreneur will buy cocaine

>$100 in the hands of a drug-addled celebrity will buy cocaine

fixed it

>>130999923
nobody should be taxed because they earned some money, or were given some money.

govt revenue should be generated by govt doing something to earn money.

id pay for some fucken actual representation.

>>130995899
bad, it will inevitably lead to the fall of whichever country implements it.

you can't reward systemic uselessness. We have done that with women and look at the mess we are in now.

>>131009927
>>131010206

That's what it boils down to right, either some sort of post-scarcity UBi society via Automatization or some sort of population purge to great a more stable society. Both seem inconceivable to me, perhaps that's why we are stuck where we are, no one in power knows what to do.

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>>131010540
>it's good. Society is coming to a point where we literally don't have (and don't need) as much jobs as before.
Very naive. If it runs itself, you, the no-longer-needed worker, are just a drain on it.
>Society is literally beginning to run itself. Giving universal basic income should be the natural next step.
Systems that exist are ones that perpetuate themselves. A society which progresses to such high efficiency the populace doesn't need to work, so all the excess is given to the now idle populace is not one that replicates itself, it's one that consumes itself or is consumed. It is not at all natural for the wealthy owners of vast industries to give their money to former employees for doing no work.
>kek. Yes, let's spend money to create needless jobs... instead of just giving that money to people.
The reason you get money is as compensation for work, so yes, in order to continue the current paradigm, they would need to give you a job to give you money and not have it be a complete loss.

The only way you're getting such a paradigm shift is through violence, and if you get it, you'll soon be conquered by a more efficient societal model.

>>131010986
>increasing consumption is better then increasing production

I hate the alt right but I hate the economic illiterate left even more. I have an experiment for you, invite a bum to your home and tell him he can move in and whats yours is his. He will consume all your shit but hey he's helping your economy right.

>>131010716
Also don't overlook "new demands". I can't say what they will be any more than a feudal peasent could predict the stock market. It will happen, because the nations that make it happen first will enjoy economic primacy, and so they will chase it.

>>130995899

Single Payer Healthcare would be better then Universal Basic Income.

That would have to come first.

Good. It could help people get their ideas out there but couldn't because of a lack of funds.

>>131011118
You simply don't understand the changing value of currency through utility and perceived earned value, then there's nothing more to be discussed.

>>131000949
like foodstamps.. itd just become another fiat.

id rather have a pile of guns and ammo and buy meat with brass then hhaave some bullshit blockchain hash that anyone can use if they can just get a pic of it.

whatabout in an actual disaster like a power outage? whats a power outage affecting just 1 state going to do to a crypto currency when nobody can perform a simple transaction?

in 2002 or 2003 most of the east coast lost power for a week.

cash was king.

>>131010442

Slave

>>131010522

Yes and then the beer, cig and cable industries expand in the same way as whatever the rich guy would invest in. These are equally productive from the perspective of the market.

>>131010572

>will be wasted on a couple grams of crack

Which goes to the drug dealer, which goes toward a new tv and a corvette which are just as innovative as the entrepreneur.

Get fucked

>>131010785

>I'd very much like to hear your source on that

Just an based on my limited life experience having lived in several regions in this country.

>Compare the cultural homogeneity of China to the USA and you'll see what I mean.

All right, so I guess capitalism is universally bad and not exclusive to the USA

>>131008273
So let me get this straight... say the government gives 10$ to everybody out of THEIR pockets - if they just simply take back 3$, it pays for itself?

>>130995899

Women and niggers won't work if they don't have to. The drive to create and invent is solely for white/asian men.

So on one hand, the women might return to the kitchen. On the other hand, niggers will stop killing people for weed so there won't be as many in jail and they'll be roaming the streets instead.

Meh. Too late to think about in depth. But it's a fact that real men will never stop working. It's on our blood. It's what drives us. Even if there's no big money, there's still pride, women, and power to work for.

>>131011274
Yup, that's how I see it too. Rock and a fucking hard place. I honestly see large payouts for sterilization to be the only way out. Take advantage of the quick incentive trigger for the most prevalent reproducers, those with little financial gain (in the scope of their net worth) will be less inclined to perform the sterilization, but I'm sure there's a whole host of problems with this as well. Thoughts?

>>131003620
life is the precursor.

it is only where you learn some stuff before dying and moving on to the important shit.

>>131011315
No universal income for the bum. No drugs. Commit Crime. More drain on society. Health problems because way shittier life becuase no udi.

will never work. no incentive to do anything

>>131011275
more efficient in what way?
and Conquered in what way?

>let's use a less efficient means of wealth redistribution and have people fucking commute to dig holes and fill them back in.

>>131011315
>micro-level economics are the exact same as macro-level economics.
You can't be this retarded.
the point more or less is to keep the unemployed useful to the capitalist system. There's going to be a lot more unemployed people in the future.
There's still market-forces dictating prices (not Soviet-Style Central-Planning).

>>130995899
No, poor people deserve to die

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>>130995899
This is a terrible idea.
UBI is a kick in the dick to people who bothered to follow the money and be somewhat successful.
It isnt my fault you work in a call center and earn jack shit because you arent skilled enough to be useful to society

>>131011275
>>131010661

You guys are stupid and can't think beyond the little box your brains are nestled in.

You guys are the equivalent of rejecting the benefits of the wheel, because now 1 person can do the work of 20 and you have to look for something else to do for society.

The fact is, society is beginning to reach the point where work is not needed anymore to run society.

You can philosophize on that all you like, but that is the cut-dry truth. We don't need as many jobs anymore.

Giving arbitrary useless jobs to justify paying people is Chinese level of retardation. Universal basic income is the natural next step for a society beginning to become self-automative.

It will actually FREE UP a lot of common workers to pursue education in engineering and science and learn things relevant for progress. Being labor slaves for the sake of being labor slaves is FUCKING STUPID and you should kill yourselves.

>>131010913
One show reaches millions. One show only needs one production team. One production team entertains millions. This is not a formula that promises exponential growth.

The very concept of entertainment is you make a product and it goes out to many. One to many. This is a repeating theme.

As I've said, you only need one repairman to keep hundreds of machines running which are doing 100s of peoples jobs. One to many.

You get a small team to design a machine that does millions of thousands of jobs. One to fucking many. These numbers won't add up. They won't be positive, no matter how much you deny it.

>>131010935
As I've said, there are only so many people reading books, watching movies. There can only be a few people who can realistically research anyone subject before it becomes redundant.

There is only so much thought space that can be realistically monetized and thus produce a job.

All those truckers aren't going to become scientists and writers.

>the poor sap sweeping all day
Oh, you talking about that job that won't exist? The hall sweeper takes care of that, why would you employ someone to do that? lol

>the machinist who plugs parameters into a machine that does all the work?
Oh the one, singular machinist who is inputting parameters in a legion of machines all of which are doing a legion of jobs that now no longer exist?

>>131011758
>hurrr consumption goood regardless of process

Which is why America is the gold standard of standard of living and wealth equality right?

Idiot

>>131012067
So everyone gets their money from the goverment but the government can decide you arent allowed to have money so you die. Good idea, much more compasionate than capitalism.

> ctrl + f
> inflation
only 4

You fucking dimwits. There will be hyperinflation with a month if this shit is introduced.

>>130998282
Sorry, the robots can do the job faster, more efficiently, doesn't take sick days, and doesn't want insurance or a retirement plan.

>>130996267
but if everyone is poor in shitty appartments, then whose gonna buy the shit the elites sell? how will the elites make money?

Politically I reject it, but selfishly I do want it. Would be amazing to not have to worry about rent and basic bills.

>MUH FREELOADERS

you have those already

>MUH NO INCENTIVE TO WORK

you still get paid for working, and then you can buy nice things and feel superior to UBI-only poorfags

>WHERE DA MONEY COME FROM

costs saved from removing the welfare infrastructure and its bloated beurocratic apparatus

>ITS JUDEOCOMMUNIST SLAVERY

yeah, fair point.

>>131011758
>Yes and then the beer, cig and cable industries expand in the same way as whatever the rich guy would invest in. These are equally productive from the perspective of the market.
The difference is that guy who invested got money back, possibly more, the guy who bought beer and cigs didn't. He isn't benefiting himself financially with thoughts like "Well, at least on making some CEO money."

>>131012212

As if investment the rich guy is making is good.

Buying a little coke is preferable to investing in some industry that's going to further pollute the environment.

>>131012294

UBI=wealth redistribution≠printing money

Fucking idiot

If your society can feed and house people for free that is a GOOD THING.

If people want to move forward life, they can now focus on education, science, and research development to advance society and you are still incentivized because you will get paid more.

Forcing people to labor (that is unneeded) to justify feeding and housing them is HOLDING BACK society.

>>131012168
See >>131011384

I know it sounds like a copout, but it's happened before every time automation has overtaken human effort. Industrial and agricultural revolutions.

New unimagined markets arise. The nations that create them enjoy economic primacy and the nations that do not emulate the ones that did.

Historically, it's a safe bet.

It will happen because rich powerful people know it must to retain western hegemony. Entire industries of mostly busywork will be created if that's what it takes, but the stakes are too high for the western elite to allow anything else.

Good. Can't wait for the government to troll it own citizens.

>>131012934
Read the thread moron, how you're wrong has been explained over and over

>>131012934
>for free
Nothing is free you fucking mung

>>131012224
You might be 12. Udi doesnt have to be stalin communist gulag. It could be part of any capitalist country.

>>131012160
>You guys are the equivalent of rejecting the benefits of the wheel, because now 1 person can do the work of 20 and you have to look for something else to do for society.
Oh for fuck's sake, you fucks always think "things will stay the same, as they always have!" NO YOU DENSE FUCK. Revolutionary technology doesn't give you same-old-same-old, it gives you something completely fucking different. God, I'm really hoping the elite go to the "kill the unneeded plebs" route as soon as possible so you "a sophisticated human-like machine is the same as sticking a sheet of metal in front of an animal, so it will effect the economy in the same way" fucks can enjoy the realization a few seconds before the drones tear you to pieces.
>The fact is, society is beginning to reach the point where work is not needed anymore to run society.
And that means you as a worker are no longer needed to keep the elite comfy. What are they going to do with you?
>Universal basic income is the natural next step for a society beginning to become self-automative.
Less people is the natural step, retard.
>It will actually FREE UP a lot of common workers to pursue education in engineering and science and learn things relevant for progress.
There are only so many fields of science and only so many people who are smart enough to pursue them. The retards; you get bullet whether anyone wants it or not. It'll happen.

>>131012120
>more efficient in what way?
instead of the money being given to lazy bums, it is used to create more production or educate more intelligent people to come up with better ideas.
>and Conquered in what way?
Physically outright, or subverted socially.

I'm not arguing we need to keep people in jobs that don't exist or need to exist, I'm saying those people will be disposed of, you simpleton.

>>131011758
>Just an based on my limited life experience having lived in several regions in this country.

Did you take a census or something?

>All right, so I guess capitalism is universally bad and not exclusive to the USA

It's still barely capitalist at all, just slightly more so than it used to be. My original question was what makes it LESS materialistic than the USA.

>>131012824
>10,000 a year
>nobody works any more
>massive shortage in production
>a bottle of water cost 100 dollars

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>>131011852
Very good...

>>130995899
good for me, bad for society

>>131013160
Dude given the choice between artificially creating a mostly busywork industry that only turns over a small profit, and class genocide, you think the latter is the more likely solution?

Stop and think man. Come on.

>>131013085
i am not the who wants eutopian free money government to be a real political agenda.

>>131006533
I would have no problem paying 20% - 30% in taxes to provide infrastructure, services, and safety nets in a white homogeneous society.

Even if some people abused the system the vast majority would not in good faith, and would rightly shame those who did.

I have no problem helping out my brethren. Shitskins, niggers, spics, illegals, refugees, chinks, etc. are not my fucking brethren.

>>131012160
Read my prior posts. I managed the automation projects for a company, I have seen every iteration where it reduced or increased labor head counts. I've contracted purchases of more "robots" than the times you've tugged your horn today, so it's a lot. But I am an engineer, so I highly doubt that that the people with a composite 18 ACT or the like would be any use anyway.

There has yet to shown any economic model where UBI is functional without crippling results based on either inflation or overt wealth redistribution to the lowest productive sector.

So please tell me the clear cut truth about the work I was hired, paid, and promoted for as being mere "philosophical." The opinion of somebody who doesn't know what ABB's product line on automation doesn't concern those who actually DO it.

>>131012707
It doesn't resolve my counter point; simple consumerism doesn't a giant net influx of wealth towards a few while only "trickling" down to the unwashed masses.

Why do you think America is full of billionaires with their private islands being served by waiters who need tips to get by?

Hyperconsumerism only gaurantees net wealth gained by a country, but not by its people because most of it will be siphoned into the wealthy few and their corporations

>>131013160
>instead of the money being given to lazy bums, it is used to create more production or educate more intelligent people to come up with better ideas.

but giving money to lazy bums is basically allowing them free time to experiment with things and think of new ideas, while not being pressured to work themselves to death.

>>131013084
You are simply stupid.

Labor for the sake of labor is retarded.

If you can house and feed people for free they can focus on school and research to continue to make progress on society.

Forcing us to remain in a certain labor set, for labor that can be completely done automatically is RETARDED.

We can, instead, JUST KEEP MOVING FORWARD.

Freeing up the labor force means we get more people in education, meaning we get more innovations and more progress.

Just accept the modern day wheel is allowing us to focus on other things now, because we don't need 20 people to carry things, when 1 person can do that particular job.

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>>130996138
So... we need to lower the population then.

The dream really ought to be humans maybe doing 10-20 hours of real work during the week so we still have purpose and all the menial labor being done by the machines. Universal basic income would be a great solution but we need to get rid of... certain elements of our population that would not be conducive to this dream working.

>>131012937
>New unimagined markets arise. The nations that create them enjoy economic primacy and the nations that do not emulate the ones that did.
>Historically, it's a safe bet.
And historically, there shouldn't be democracy, because there had never been democracy at some point in history. There's a first for everything. Mark my words, we'll be there to witness a first, if we have our eyes open.
>It will happen because rich powerful people know it must to retain western hegemony. Entire industries of mostly busywork will be created if that's what it takes, but the stakes are too high for the western elite to allow anything else.
The western elite will not manufacture primarily jobs, but primarily wars and conflict to kill off the excess. Of course there will be some busy work to offset what the war can't kill, but yeah, (((they')))ve been doing this for a while now.

>>130995899
>Universal basic income.
>Good or bad?
Very, very bad. Cost of living will skyrocket. Parasitic, useless people will reproduce even faster. Government will have far more say over what you can do, say, or think.

>>131013819
Except it doesn't work that way.
People do get addicted to welfare, becoming less productive.

>>131012694

He didn't get money back, but he got the pleasure of smoking and drinking. You know, not all of us are as obsessed with money as you are. Some of us want to enjoy life's pleasures rather than continuously delaying gratification so that we can be buried in a tomb of wealth.

>>131012530

>>MUH NO INCENTIVE TO WORK

This kills me. Who is going to stop working so that they can live on a $1,000 a month?

>>131013203

>Did you take a census or something?

My upper-middle class friends in New England, the pacific northwest and the southwest all consume the same lowbrow shit. I can only assume that middle class and low class people are just as bad and worse. I figure that covers more than 3/4 of Americans.

>My original question was what makes it LESS materialistic than the USA.

Confucianism still has major influence in Chinese culture based on what I know whereas Americans don't have anything comparable. As an American I've been taught that getting laid, making money and having nice stuff are the most important parts of life. If I make 6 figures at some point then I've got it made, i.e. I've achieved all that can be asked of me.

Whereas respect for one's elders and work ethic are traditional values still present in Chinese culture.

>>131013583

>simple consumerism doesn't a giant net influx of wealth towards a few while only "trickling" down to the unwashed masses.

Can you clarify?

>>131014106
Forget it, the mungs are willfully ignorant of the tragedy of the commons

>>131014106
That's not true. There are people that want to move forward in life.

I for one have a bachelors in Biology and I took a break from school because I need money to feed myself and I want to pay off some of my debt before going back to school.

I would LOVE to just continue school, and to just continue research. If I had money to feed myself, I would.

Saying we should just remain as wage slaves to work we can outsource to machines is stupid and is holding society back. It is literally like destroying the wheel so 20 people can walk back and forth carrying things.

People that are ambitious will still be ambitious.

i've done 10 years NEET with no government help, relying entirely on my poor family. a little extra would be appreciated.

>>130997552
Is that a thing?

>>131013413
>Dude given the choice between artificially creating a mostly busywork industry that only turns over a small profit, and class genocide, you think the latter is the more likely solution?
Don't you just hate those Russians? I can't wait till we go to war with them. Many of us may die, but at least more of them will die!

>>131013750
The only thing the average consumer produces is shit and facebook posts.

>>131013084
Wrong

Your mom sucks my dick for free

>>131014394
>New England, the pacific northwest and the southwest

there's your freakin problem matey.

>As an American I've been taught that getting laid, making money and having nice stuff are the most important parts of life.

The very fact that you're questioning that notion makes it likely that you're not the only one.

Let me rephrase the question: how is China tangibly less materialistic than the USA?

>>130998913
Being beet is awesome at first. The relief of knowing rent will always be paid. Food in the cupboard, etc.

But eventually you may struggle to spend your time. What to do? what is your reason to exist? Having a job solves this problem.

In the future people will struggle mightily with so much free time. It's a real mindfuck after a while.

>>131014394
>He didn't get money back, but he got the pleasure of smoking and drinking. You know, not all of us are as obsessed with money as you are. Some of us want to enjoy life's pleasures rather than continuously delaying gratification so that we can be buried in a tomb of wealth.
Maybe his pleasure in life was being financially stable and being able to help an up and coming business? But keep believing that smoking cigarettes and drinking beer is the only way to be happy while you tell us about economics top jej

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>>130995899
This will only work when computers and robots can do every job better than humans and at point there will be no need for money to exist.

>>130995899
Basically the end of humanity as we know it. Most likely extremely bad and will result in millions of deaths if there is ever any sort of emergency where all the dependants sucking on the governments teet dont get their neetbux

>>131013935
Kill the Poor, and the Rich,

CLASS WAR NOW!

>>130995899
Why would you want to send millionaires and billionaires free money? Why would you spread the welfare across such a large swath of people instead of targeting those who need it? It is a shitty idea.

>>131013949
I'm sure many small simple tribes of prehistory humans chose their leader by consensus. I don't concede that point.

They're importing more people as we speak, and often shilling against contraception.
You'll always be able to turn a profit from people. Always.

>>131014675
Oh you fool. That's about dominion of Europe and more recently arctic resources.

If i had weekly income and nothing to do i woukd pick up a hobby, like serial killer

>>131014935
Buying some fucking textbooks with your neetbux, go to college, take science classes.

If you want to contribute to society, take up engineering or any kind of research field in science (medicine, robotics, whatever).

Or fuck that, you can learn software design and be a video game developer.

Go work in the film industry. You don't have to suck dick to make rent anymore.

There is literally much we can do. We don't need to be stuck as wage slaves.

>>131005303
What Evola is saying is that both capitalism and socialism are materialist systems by their very nature

>>131013439
I have utopian underpinnings to a lot of my politcal ideas. Im as rational and pragmatic as I can be.

Ive observed the welfare system for a long time. Udi is the way to go if you want to lift people out of there own shit.

A lot of you cunts will not give a fuck because "nigas and shit".

Basically because I wasnt eligible for a certain payment many years ago I compltetly fucked up my life.

>>130996138

well with UBI you could move out to extremely cheap cost of living areas, so that it would be worth more.

I think right now the best the US could do scrapping all the welfare and medicaid is 500 usd a month.

So it could cover your food bill, and could be combine with free land to settle in some remote areas.

>>131015191
because it's encourages spending that money, which helps stimulate the economy.

>the poor likely have debts or immediate expenses that need to be covered.
>The middle likely will go out and buy a new lawn mower or go on vacation, or get their roof/siding redone or car inspected.(not worrying about draining an emergency fund to do so)
>The rich are a fairly small percentage of the population anyway

>>130995899
the state should give jobs/help those who struggle with finding paying work to find some. I am happy to have my tax dollars go to efficient job training and job placement programs.

>>131015708
what about Civilian Conservation Corps.?

where they're basically low-wage roadworkers.

>>131015636
Think of a number that you want to send people per year which will actually make a difference. Now multiply that by the US population. How much does that come out to?

>>131015951

2 trillion for 500 USD. Though 300 million is the population i'm not sure what the actual citizen count is.

UBI would work great in ethno-states which have zero tolerance for behavioral fuckery. Should be done using crypto as well.

>>130995899
how about LOWER THE [RICE OF ALL OUR BULLSHIT AND LESS TAXES.. take it from the ""civil servants|| pay which i believe should be minimum wage, no reason to not increase it then

>>131015826
>The American public made the CCC the most popular of all the New Deal programs. Sources written at the time claimed an individual's enrollment in the CCC led to improved physical condition, heightened morale, and increased employability. The CCC also led to a greater public awareness and appreciation of the outdoors and the nation's natural resources, and the continued need for a carefully planned, comprehensive national program for the protection and development of natural resources.

Yes, absolutely. Bring back the CCC.

>>130995899
Its necessary to some extent. Its essentially taxing robotic labor which should, ideally, be working for everyone and benefit the entirety of humanity and the planet.

>>131016559
That is half the current federal budget and 1/9 of the countries GDP. Is that worth giving people food money?

>>131015489
because he is dumb and doesnt get to their fundamental differences
evola did not believe in surplus theft

>>130995899
Doesn't everyone hear the line "Money doesn't grow on trees." What fucktard thinks everyone in the US can be given and income and it just make everything better with no side effects. See there's this thing called inflation, and it's a bitch if it gets out of hand. Just look at history. Well if you gave everyone a pocket full of money it's a short game economically speaking, because inflation would rise. Then, you would have to give more money to have the buying power as before.

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>>130995899
It's the future, m80

>>131015297
But at some point in history, they hadn't.

And yet, what would you know, something new happened. The point is, just because something happened yet does not mean it won't happen.

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>>131020082
Aye, it be because of robots, they be plunderin' yer jobs, ya scallywag.

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>>130995899
Things might work out for a few months but as soon as the market begins to react there will be rapid inflation and soon the entire economy will collapse.