Taxation is not necessarily theft

>>130831423
Its fucking theft when I'm paying 40% of my money to a government that then literally hands it to refugees, welfare, and foreign countries. Since when did donations become voluntary?
Fuck Canada so much I cannot even begin to describe my hatred for this place.

>>130831848
did someone force you to work for pay that would be taxed? did you know before getting the job that the pay would be taxed?

consenting to a shitty deal does not equal theft (it equals stupidity on your part)

>If the tax is voluntary, then it is not theft. If you know a transaction will be taxed, and you voluntarily engage in the transaction, then you cannot claim the gov't stole your property. You implicitly consent to the tax by voluntarily engaging in a taxable exchange.
Yes, you can, because the tax is mandatory

>>130831988
The "choice" between not having money and having a job is not really a choice, it's a gun to the head

>>130831988
>implying there is any job in which you won't be taxed on in this country
That is retarded reasoning.

>>130832240
the tax is mandatory, but the exchange that is being taxed is voluntary

>choice between no money and a job
you create a false dilemma; there are other options (also, not all jobs are taxed)


>>130832338
have you ever met someone paid in cash? is that really able to be taxed?

>>130831423
im guessing this is bait.

>>130832592
>have you ever met someone paid in cash? is that really able to be taxed?
Do you not know what tax evasion is?
If the government finds out you are not reporting taxable income they will fine you and/or put you in jail.
Again, this is not a choice.
I do agree there should be some taxes but the amount to which the Canadian population is taxed is unfair and absurd. One person should not have to pay more than 10% of his money to taxation.

>>130832592
"Able to be taxed"... the law requires you to report and pay tax on cash income if it goes over a certain amount.

>>130832746
not even; taxation is theft is a dumbass meme and its logically false.. this post highlights these points (taxation can be theft, but it is not necessarily theft)

>>130832903
Ok I'll bite. Where does the authority to levy a tax on a transaction come from?

taxation for redistributionism is theft

>>130832899
>self reporting
how will they know? (pro tip: they wont)

>>130833046
In our country? The constitution

>>130833108
In our case we "redistribute" it to dindus and sand people.

>>130833108
ONLY IF it is done so without consent

>>130833137
You are still under threat of property confiscation. This post is about whether or not something voluntary is taking place so debating your point any further is an unuseful complication.

>>130833137
Do you really think the IRS is that stupid?
If they find out you have a house, car, land, etc with no reportable income or no taxed paid do you think they're just going to ignore you?
They will investigate you. There is no way to not be taxed. Jesus you're retarded.

>>130833478
>no way to not be taxed
how many homeless are in America? What are they taxed on?

I understand the spirit of your point, but it technically incorrect. Seek the truth.

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>>130831423

lol, you fucking retard

NOTHING is untaxed in Europe. So we either "consent" or starve

A consensual tax is called a PAYMENT you boot licking inbred subhuman mongoloid

>>130833882
Are gifts of food taxed? if a person gives a starving person a loaf of bread, will that transaction be taxed?

>>130833335
So by your own explanation taxation isn't theft because it is constitutional. Has nothing to do with knowing whether or not a transaction is taxed before making it somehow making it into voluntary. The concept of compulsory levying of the tax/extra cost in order to do business in the first place is super ordinate to the decision to make the exchange.

Compare it to a local mafia threatening to burn your business down if you don't pay them. Maybe the first payment is aggression... but if they inform you that they will be back weekly to collect more and you then don't sell your business and leave... Does that make future payments voluntary?

>>130833748
>either starve to death or be taxed
That's a great point there you have made me see the light oh my god all these years living in the shadows!

>>130834193
You have not understood my point, I'll try to explain in different words since you may have some learning disability..

Taxation isn't necessarily theft. Theft requires a taking of another's property without his consent. If the person being taxed CONSENTS to the tax, then it is not theft. Consent can be given explicitly or implicitly. What I am highlighting in this post is consent by implication. For example, if you know a certain transaction will be taxed if you engage in it, and then you engage in that transaction, then it is implied that you have consented to the tax.

Your hypothetical is an example of extortion, and not of taxation and therefore does not apply here.

>>130834763
listen dumbass, first homeless people go everyday without starving to death, is it done via magic? second, I'm simply highlighting the logical fallaciousness of the meme "Taxation is theft"

>>130834132
Yes. t. Merkel

>>130834924
Protection fee isn't necessarily theft. Theft requires a taking of another's property without his consent. If the person being offered protection CONSENTS to the fee, then it is not theft. Consent can be given explicitly or implicitly. What I am highlighting in this post is consent by implication. For example, if you know a certain business will be offered protection if you engage in it, and then you engage in that deal, then it is implied that you have consented to the fee.

>>130834924
You're right that my example can't be perfect because it is a unique relationship.

You and the shop you are doing business with can't freely decide to transact without paying the required fees/taxes without being subject to violence. That situation as a closed system can't be described as voluntary. The added piece of information that "the tax is constitutional" definitely changes the situation but THAT is the part that changes the nature of voluntary / involuntary. Not your consent in the moment to make a purchase.

>>130834924
Specifically I'm not saying taxation is theft. But I am saying your reasoning is flawed here.

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HAHAHA HAHAHA HAHAHA HAHAHA HAHAHA HAHAHA

*BREATHES IN*

HAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHA

No. It's always theft.

>>130836219
>>130836109
If someone wants to open a shop in the US they know they will be subject to various taxes. No one forces them to open a shop. Similarly, if you go to a shop to make a purchase, you know that transaction will be subject to various taxes. No one forces them to make the purchase.

Purely voluntary exchange made with the knowledge that taxes will be imposed.

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>>130833335
ok.. i don't consent

>>130836597
But they do force them to close the shop if they won't pay the tax.

>Is taxation theft?
Yes.

Any questions? It's a simple concept. If you force someone to give you their money that makes you a theif.

You can dress it up and call it something different, but you are forcing someone to give you their money AKA theft.

This triggers burgers who don't understand they are being ripped off.

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>>130831423
>>130831988
>>130832592
>>130832903
>>130833137
>>130833203
>>130833335
>>130833748
>>130834132
>>130834924
>>130836597
dude stahhp you're just making it worse for yourself every time you post

>>130831423

>Taxation is not necessarily theft

When the quality of public services reach extreme depths tax is robbery

if taxation isn't theft then what is it? Checkmate.

The bigger picture is that inflation is theft.

>>130831423
Oh no, it's retarded

>>130837259
Wrong. because the free market can come up for a solution for that, and nobody forces you to inflate your currency.

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Social contract. If you don't like it you have the option of going off-grid and living alone in the mountains or something. I don't want to live that kind of life, even if I think that taxes are too high. I'll support politicians who want to lower taxes to a more reasonable level, but ancaps and mem-tier libertarians can fuck off.

You're right, its not theft if there is consent. The problem is that you are forced to consent in order to buy the necesseties to live.

Untill you can opt out of tax, and therefore the services it provides, it will always be theft.

>>130836876
That's fine, no one is forcing you to. But the minute you engage in an exchange which is taxable, you have consented to the tax by implication

>>130836909
that's likely the result, depending on the specific facts of the case. however, when they opened the shop they did so knowing they'd be subject to taxation

>>130837120
Yes, if you force someone to give you money that is theft. However, if you say, "If you engage in certain conduct, like buying a car, you will be taxed on the transaction," then there is an opportunity for the person to choose not to pay that particular tax.

>>130837120
>Any questions?
Why are ancaps so retarded and incapable of rational thought?

>>130832592
>Not all jobs are taxed.
Not until they get audited, and forced to pay tax.

>>130837463
Homeless people all of America do not pay any tax.

>>130837392
dude that's literally retarded.
>I am willing to be ripped off and stolen from because they might spend some of that money on me if i'm a good boy

Or you could just spend your own money and let the free market decide. Are you admitting you are stupid and someone else knows how to spend your money better than you do?

>>130837463
>you are forced to consent in order to buy the necessities to live.
This isn't true, though.
Or, if it is true, it wouldn't be the government's fault, it'd be the market's.

>>130837585
Do auditors, in your fantasy world, have omniscience?

>>130837392
The mountains are owned by the state. The social contract is a fantasy, you agree to live by the state's rules or be incarcerated.

>>130837521
Yeah and if I breath in and somone tries to tax me for breathing it's also theft. Checkmate.

>>130837551
How is this not rational?
If someone taxes you and you don't want to pay them, it's theft.

I have proposed this time and time again. People are asking the questions in the wrong order. The correct order would be:

1) Is it useful?
2) Is it feasible?
3) Is it moral?

These questions gradually decline in importance. If something is moral or not is the icing on the cake, not the main concern.

>>130837636
>Are you admitting you are stupid and someone else knows how to spend your money better than you do?
The primitive ancap chimpanzee takes his first steps towards civilization.

>>130831423
If I am making a private transaction with a business, but there is a sales tax that said business must pay and therefore cant charge less than the tax amount, then there is not a total freedom of trade. The business and I should be able to agree to a price without any outside involuntary limitations.

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>>130837521
ok, I thought ancaps were memes but the arguments against them are even funnier
fuck it, taxation is theft
any madmax tier off road heroin dealers want to show me some books to read, ancapistan sounds like fun

>>130831423
That's a terrible argument.
>If you know that the moment you step outside to go get food so that you don't starve to death the man with a gun will put it to your head a demand $20, and you decide to go get food, then obviously you have consented to it, ergo it is not theft.

>>130837832
It's not, though.
I don't "want" to go to work in the morning, but I'll get fired if I don't.
Does that mean I'm enslaved?

>>130837746
No they have people who come and check your books and find out how many employees are being paid. This is standard shit. Don't be difficult on purpose. Just say taxation is theft, but there's some legitimate ways we can utilize taxation. It's not that hard.

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>>130831423
*blocks your path*
IS TAXATION THEFT?

>>130831423
Your logic works for sales tax, and maybe property tax, but explain how income tax is not theft

>>130837350
Show me how i can print my own money and get away with it and i will happily do so. Until then only international central banks like the BIS make those decisions, and have their fingers on the spigots. It's only at their go-ahead that the money supply is increased. Naturally, their friends get it fist, when it's actually worth something. By the time it filters down to you and me it has transmogrified into National Debt.

>>130837879
>a sales tax that said business must pay and therefore cant charge less than the tax amount
Explain the part where the transaction is required to use the currency printed, legislated, and taxed by the government.

>>130837971
Dude that's not an argument. That's like saying you are a slave to breathing.

Oh man the free market and all that freedom and not stealing from you. Dude it's a better system in literally every way but you don't understand it.

Why do people perpetually vote against their interests hoping for change that never comes. This is an actual new fresh idea that will fix everything.

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>>130837928
I got a good one, lets compare this to private theft:
If my mafia extorts all the businesses in an area, that's ok because they consented to being on my turf

>>130837928
>He doesn't know how to order a pizza

>>130838124
That would also be theft. Seems like a difficult concept for you to grasp. check and mate.

It's ok I wouldn't expect leaf education to understand ancap, you guys are literally brainwashed socialists.

>>130837971
>I don't "want" to go to work in the morning, but I'll get fired if I don't.
Does that mean I'm enslaved?

>I don't "want" to eat to survive
>Does this mean I'm enslaved?

fucking kys yourself

>>130838253
What if the delivery guy has a gun tho?

>>130837521
Well you have a tautology here. You've defined voluntary as "things that you do in addition to the things that you must do because if you don't do them you will be subject to violence" and then called paying/requiring sales tax as voluntary.

The intellectually honest thing to do is say it is required by the social contract. >>130837392

>>130838162
My bad, didn't know your flag was larp
carry on friend

Continuing since the last stupid ancap thread died before I could reply.
>>130834825
Likening nature forcing you to work to the government forcing you to pay taxes is still a false equivalency and still entirely due to your conflating negative and positive liberties.

>You're just talking about two different ways of saying what is essentially the same thing. Dying of old age could be described as 'nature killing/claiming a victim'
It's not. Killing is active, dying is passive. There must be an agent for an ethical evaluation to be possible. You can't ethically judge the erosion of a cliff through the ages, just like you cannot judge a person's dying of old age. There is no action, no decision made, and no intent for you to judge. It's merely an event. When the state tells you to pay up or else, there is an agent. You can judge the actions of the government on an ethical basis. When you stop working, nobody comes for you. Nothing happens. The only thing you can judge here is your decision. You cannot ethically indict nature.

So no, "nature is oppressing me", is not an argument.

>>130838329
fellow ancap I salute you.
Put on your flag to represent our movement xD

>>130838329
>People are only capable of living by selling their labor to an employer in a place of business in exchange for a wage

I am convinced that ancaps are subhuman.

>>130832240
>The "choice" between not having money and having a job is not really a choice, it's a gun to the head
So leave and go live in a nation that has no taxes. Or make your own.

I'm sure your nation will prosper with all the rights, services, protections and obligations of a government without any taxes collected.

>>130838395
>Gets defeated in argument
>I-I-I you are larping so I win

Nice non-argument attempt to save yourself. Didn't work.

>>130838568
that's more than you can do faggot

>>130838343
Then RIP
hope you get a better spawn next time

>>130838568
>can't come up with an argument
>YOUR SUBHUMAN

White supremacists don't understand basic logic, so they are afraid of AnCap.

>>130838304
I am telling you that you don't control your money supply, that's all.
And the smugness does you no favours in winning converts to your way of thinking

>>130831423
Theft would be if you didn't get anything in return. You do get infrastructure, safety services, in other countries people also get healthcare and higher education. It's not theft, it's forced business, and it's forced for a reason - you cannot live without those (try, if you don't believe me) and you want them/ Now, whether the price is fair or not is up to discussion, but to claim this is theft is retarded and that's what anti-tax-fags are - retards.

You believe tax is theft? Walk through the forest and swamp to grocery store. Break a leg and don't call medical assistance. Set your house on fire, stay in it and shoot firemen coming to help you (ok, I was kidding, don't do that. Or just give warning shots). Or simply die.

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>>130838675

>>130838779
>White supremacists
Actually offended

>>130838146
>Explain the part where the transaction is required to use the currency printed, legislated, and taxed by the government.
What? Was that not implied in the OP I responded too? I think youve mistaken me for the larper ITT.

>>130831423
Sharia Blue OY VEY

>>130831423
>If you know a transaction will be taxed, and you voluntarily engage in the transaction, then you cannot claim the gov't stole your property.

It's illegal to engage in non-taxed transactions though, or it's regulated by the state. If it wasn't I'd agree.

>>130831423
>>130831988
That's like having someone holding a gun up to your head and saying "okay I'll take half of your money every month, you do consent to it, right?"
It's nearly impossible to make a living outside of the system. And if you do that means you're already living outside of it.

>>130838785
What smugness? You mean by having a superior argument? Sorry, that's just life when you are dealing with ideas of the future against outdated ideas of the past.

>>130831423
It's theft if you're involuntarily living under the government taxing you.

North Korean taxation is theft because most people can't leave. They're not voluntarily agreeing to live within the borders of the state that's taxing them.

>>130838895
What the OP is saying is the opposite, it's not required; and the fact that people are willingly using the currency that's taxed is what makes it not theft.

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>>130838830
did I strike a nerve?

>>130839026
No, North Korean taxation is theft because all taxation is theft. How many times do I have to explain this to you before you understand?

>>130831423
>Snakebaiting this hard
You think you can come to a board full of Libertarians, and have a centrist view on taxation? Are you a fucking imbecile?

>>130839203
yeah duude, but it's theft that gets OP his NEETbux
so it's not theft

Who else thinks the military should be crowd-sourced and crowd-funded?

Fuck me, then pay my taxes. https://youtu.be/whlHvpnxOD0

>>130839005
>It's illegal to engage in non-taxed transactions
So that time I mowed my neighbor's lawn as a kid and he gave me a candy bar, a crime was being committed?

>>130839203
If the transfer of wealth is by voluntary agreement, it's not theft by definition.

>>130839014
Riiiight. YOU'Re gonna take over the future. I dont even disagree with you ya wackjob. All i'm saying is, there is an even bigger ripoff inflation, and it's international. Sure, governments extort their people through taxes. But internationals extort governments. You'll see it someday.

>>130831423
If you implicitly consent to a taxation on a sales transaction, you implicitly consent to an income transaction. There are both transactions.

Unless you are personally defending your own claim of property rights with your own weaponry, you are implicitly consenting to taxation so that your property rights exist.

>>130839406
Yeah, of course. You didn't know that? Then again, I don't know what I expected with that flag.

>>130838819
If I rob you of $50 and for some reason decide to give $5 back, it is still theft. If I steal your car, but bring it back intact and with the tank filled, it's still theft. "Forced business" is theft. You're forcibly seizing someone's assets, whether you offer something in return doesn't in any way change that. It hinges entirely on the lack of consent which you admit. You can't on an ethical basis argue for taxes with the presupposition of all forms of theft being wrong; taxation is theft.

Now, you can absolutely argue that presupposition itself because as you say taxes do end up doing a hell of a lot of good.

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>>130831423
>You implicitly consent to the feudal levy voluntarily birthing on the feudal land

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>>130831423
Except that the tax levvied on a purchase would have to have been voluntarily agreed to in the first place. It's existence relies on coercion, therefore is not legitimate, therefore is still theft.
Nice try, commie.

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>>130839406
shit, never thought of that
time to pay my rent in candybars

>>130831423
Being taxed once is tolerable, being taxed multiple times on the same earnings is taking the piss.

>>130831423
Its a necessary to prevent greater evil. State is based on violence but life would be pretty shitty without it.

>>130839690
Is there anything stopping leasers from accepting candybars as rent?

>>130831423
"A mafia shakedown isn't theft, you agree to pay the fee to have your bodega protected by the mob!"

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>>130839664
its* FFFFFUUUUUUU--

>>130839664
>therefore is not legitimate
Pro tip: theft can be legitimate. Examples: tax.

>>130839744
I agree. You know what you should do? You should throw a shit ton of Tea into the harbor, start a war with your government, win it, and then begin a new nation only to have it dominated by kikes and have to pay ridiculously high amounts in taxes while your new government pretends it isn't wasting them anyway. That would be fun.

>>130839525
If the dentist removes your organs while you are under its voluntary because you don't "own" your spleen if you aren't protecting it.

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>>130839769
You seem to have mistaken 'law' with 'state.' That's ok, though, most basic bitch plebs do.

>>130839863
State is just final form of the mafia.

>>130839971
Sadly the best argument so far.

>>130839594
I'd disagree with him;
there is no lack of consent. You accepted that $50 on the understanding that I'd take it from you and give $5 back. Same with the car.

>You can't on an ethical basis argue for taxes with the presupposition of all forms of theft being wrong; taxation is theft.
Begging the question

>>130839787
Contracts are not enforced in situations like that.

>>130840135
Trust me, I'm Italian I know it as well as anyone.

>>130839787
http://www.u-exchange.com/bartering-legalities
>If you're business bartering, all trades are treated as cash transactions, therefore it's up to you to claim any trades on your taxes according to your government's laws.

The only thing that is not legal is failing to claim bartering on your taxes. Treat all trades as you would cash transactions. Any barter transaction is reported on Schedule C, Profit or Loss from Business Form 1040.

yes but you aren't getting out of taxes

>>130839971
Theft is by definition an ilegitemate transfer of property. Assuming legitimacy is in accordance with natural law and not the fiat artifice of state law.

>>130839626
feudalism is based on contracts, so probably true.

>>130831423
You pay for the military who protects you, the government who runs society for you, and the roads to be built for your lard asses to drive to. Those same roads lead to freedom from taxes and society, into the wilderness.

Only shitskins, manchildren and libtards think taxes are theft.

>>130840221
#MoreThanAnItalian

>>130840176
That this is such a shitty argument is telling of the ground statists stand upon.

>>130840211
Why not? The property is still yours, you're still within the law to defend it.

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>>130840176

>>130840360
#MoreThan62%

>>130840100
As someone curious about the ancap viewpoint, how do you implement and enforce a law without any sort of governance? Can you collaboratively make laws as a group and still not be considered a "state"?

>>130831988
So by your autistic logic having a job is considered a shitty deal and we're all stupid for choosing to work?

>>130840203
No, that's just pointless blame shifting. You can't absolve the agent with the justification that his actions were contingent on another's. That's one of the silliest things I've heard.
>>130840400
I actually agree with him.

>>130840310
You joined this thread to emotionally vent. Discussion is about the logic of using the term 'voluntary'.

>>130840310
To add to that, you can be angry at what the tax money is being spent on, like welfare, stupid wars, and shitfugees, but you can't claim its theft. You're at fault for letting government get away with it.

>>130840409
it means that if I don't make my candy bar payment in time you can't sue me

In a just world I shouldn't be able to steal your identity along with all your material assets.

Am I violating NAP for capitalizing on the possessions of others?

>>130831423
It's not. Property is theft.

>>130831423
I got it! The solution and harmony!

Taxation is an extortion!

>>130840274
>If you own a business and trade $500 worth of goods in an even trade, the $500 worth of goods/services you supply counts as a sale and the $500 worth of goods/services you receive counts as an expense
Who's determining the value of the goods/service?

>>130840637
How can there be theft without property. Theft means to take one's property.

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>>130840281
>natural law
Never heard an ancap say this. Do tell

>>130840675
the IRS i'd imagine
you've never left your neetcave and payed taxes have you?

>>130837860
Then communism must the peak of civilization considering the state takes all you have and manages what service and resources you get?

Bootlicker cuck

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>>130840281
What is illegitimacy? Illegitimacy means that your action would be punished by angry men with weapons. But what if these men will decide to not punish certain actions? (like taking money from people and giving to them) These actions are legitimate now and nothing stops you from doing them.

>natural law
No such thing. Legitimacy and law comes from the biggest gun barrel in the land.

>>130840613
I'm fine with just kicking you out.

>>130840524
Ancap is an esoteric discussion between minarchists about whether or not protection and justice systems can be organized via the invisible hand instead of voting. If you aren't a minarchist/Austrian I wouldn't bother with it unless you want to read the moral/ethical arguments for entertainment.

>>130840623
check and mate.

Ancaps: 1
Faschs: 0

>>130840774
Its temporal custodianship. Theft is an involuntary transfer of goods.

There is a commission doing a investigation on tax evasion in the Netherlands atm. Check out this part of the hearings, it's subtitled in English. It's worth the watch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGLZNMQTfEc

>>130840561
It's not that they were contingent on anything. They could tax you whether you agree or not.
It's just that in our circumstances, we're agreeing.

How would any government survive a full-stack peaceful revolution?

Businesses adopt and exchange using a taxless currency that anyone can earn or exchange.

That would mean the government would have to sustain itself with its own fiat currency.

>>130841118
check and mate.

Ancaps: 2
Faschs: 0

xD

>>130840937
I suspect I fall in the libertarian right somewhere, but I'm not entirely positive where; probably actually Minarchism, I would assume. I generally think the government should only be big enough to do things that cannot be done without them.

>>130840871
Communism is egalitarian, that makes it more in line with Ancap retardation, where apparently everyone can manage their money equally well enough for society to function prosperously.

>>130840910
"your honor, I've levied a case of discrimination against this landlord because he has failed to provide a reason for evicting me from the premises"

"wut, NO! It was clearly stated in the contract that you were to pay no less than 500 snickers by the end of every month"

"I have no idea what you're talking about! no contract that absurd could be enforced in court"

>>130841421
Except taxation is theft.
Does that violate your NAP treaty? Poor fool you bend over and act like you enjoy being robbed

>>130840524
Long story short - invisible hand (emergent property of system of human preferences - price/profit system - voluntary exchanges) would attempt to create a safe and just environment due to humans preferring that arrangement. How exactly it would look is anyone's guess. Some people write books about Dispute Resolution Organizations and insurance against violence/theft causing people to have an incentive to deal with those problems but we would have to wait and see what the real solution looked like.

>>130841551
lol, tax violating NAP?

Ask BLM.

>>130841118
>How would any government survive a full-stack peaceful revolution?
With universal power of the violence.
http://www.nj.com/hunterdon-county-democrat/index.ssf/2012/12/divorcee_sits_in_jail_while_ua.html

>>130841451
>where apparently everyone can manage their money equally well enough for society to function prosperously.
That's the anclap utopia. In reality the jew york cabal will enslave all the goyim and they will buy Israel and because it's private property no one can touch their sacred land.

>>130841666
xD

Ancaps: 3
Faschs: 0

We can't handle all this winning.

>>130841451
It seems you don't understand both AnCap (or Capitalism in general) and Communism. Further discussion is basically useless. But still

>AnCap is based on the idea everyone manages their money equally well

Gave me real laugh, not sure if trolling desu

>>130841487
>levied a case of discrimination against this landlord because he has failed to provide a reason for evicting me from the premises
He'd get chucked out right then.
If the contract for him to live on my property isn't valid in court, I'm effectively just allowing him to bunk with me.

>>130841095
>It's not that they were contingent on anything
Yes they are.
Taxation is contingent on you earning an income or purchasing goods. Your doing so is not a form of consent to the action of the state saying "pay up, or else", nor is buying a car consenting to it being stolen, or carrying cash consenting to be robbed. You already had about half a dozen analogies in this thread showing how ludicrous that form of thinking is before you made that laughable point.

Pretending you can absolve an agent with the justification that his actions are contingent on another's is ridiculous and not an argument.

>>130841058
Amazing video. That smug bitch is like "hurr do you children go to school?" but the libertarian remains calm and has got great arguments.

>>130841554
>but we would have to wait and see what the real solution looked like
Already there. It is called the state.

>>130841789
AnCap is not communism. Stop trying to push fake news.

>>130837392
>want to just fucking work as an engineer
>have to pay for nigger welfare and foreign wars, military welfare, shit education, and sick fat retarded people.

This is degeneracy I'm paying for.

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>>130841551
>this is Ir7PWMmA
>don't be like Ir7PWMmA

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>>130841789
Ancaps are essentialy liberals and need to be gassed.

>>130841789
That was their argument, not mine.
>hurr you need someone else to tell you how your money's best spent? what a bootlicker heheh

Direct your spergy smugness at him.

>>130841551
I'm not sure that it is in all situations. I do think the U.S. taxes everything way too much.

I see being in society as part of a social contract and part of that contract is paying whatever small amount in necessary to maintain the vital functions of society that the free market cannot due to self-interest inherent in human beings.

The ancap society would be nice if it could work. Few things I hate more than taxes, but I don't see any way around minor taxation. If someone has a way around that problem, I'd love to hear it.

If slavery is 100% taxation
and freedom is 0% taxation
what do we call the garbage in the middle?

A little bit of slavery? Sounds dumb. Slavery is slavery.

>>130839594
I think it would be pretty easy to pass a bill which would allow citizens to sign out of tax. However, passing all the other bills that would be necessary for the execution of no-tax bill to be fair to tax-paying cirizens, now that would be hell.

I'll give you an example on how it should be done in Poland, so the healthcare bill does not apply to Murrica and high education bill is already in works there, but I want it to be also as relevant as possible to Yuropean countris.

To be fair to those who choose to pay taxes, the government would also need to pass, among others, such bills as:
- allowing grocery stores and other kinds of stores to sell defective goods and expired/outdated foods, which are being thrown into trash to the loss of the stores because taxfunded offices such as Polish UOKiK control the quality of products admissible for sale.
- deprive non-taxpayers of the right to state funded medical help
- also, since in some cases medical help won't waste time to check whether you pay taxes or not because your life is at stake (in an accident or something), and firefighters certainly won't check if you pay taxes and decide not to extinguish the fire, because the fire could spread on the property of taxpayers, the government would have to pass a bill which would allow them to issue you a bill
- if you didn't pay the bill, you would go to prison, the accommodation, heating, guarding and food are paid for from taxes, so the government would also have to pass a bill which would allow prisons to issue you a bill, or better, force you to work for you being there
- also, the bill allowing the police to give you a ticket or arrest you for using roads and pavements would be necessary
- another bill to deprive non-taxpayers of the right of being in public areas such as parks, marketplaces etc. plus state owned forests, as well as increasing taxes to fund the guards which would check the id's of people trying to enter to check if they pay taxes.

>>130841926
No way, liberals are gay centrists like Sargon. Gas him.

>>130841903
NOT
AN
ARGUMENT

CHECK
AND
MATE

you can't see the way out of your own ass.

>>130842095
consentual slavery

>>130841926
have you ever had to google someone's race to see if you agreed with him or not?
you seem to be on that level of autism

>>130842095
60% taxation is not a little

>>130831423
>You implicitly consent to the tax by voluntarily engaging in a taxable exchange.

Let's take a real world example. Amanda Berry is locked up in Ariel Castro's basement. To get her food, she needs to suck him off. She needs to eat, so she sucks him off. Ariel Castro then claimed as OP did that this exchange was consented.

>>130842071
>I do think
Yeah I noticed that, especially when you tried to justify theft and pretend like it's not theft.

>>130841879
I'm quoting that fool that said it, lel... are you even following?

>>130841926
The thing is we won't and you'll most probably end up dead with another failed painter at the helm getting buttfucked by the world while lashing out ;)

>>130842163
So yeah, my point is that it is not hard at all to pass a bill allowing citizens not to pay taxes, but passing all the bills that would compensate for the loss of tax income and to be fair to those who pay taxes, would be a lot of fucking hard work

>>130834924
>then it is implied that you have consented to the tax.
no. it is implied that a third party that isn't related to the transaction decided to use force to steal from the participants of said transaction.

>>130841733
Meh, that's gonna happen.

Not enough options.

>>130842177
Sargoy of Mossad is not even worth mentioning here. Do ancaps believe church and state should be separated? Yes. Do they believe all men are created equal? Yes. Are they liberals? Yes.

>>130842296
Dude stop pretending like you are so smart. You tried to insult AnCap and call it communism and it's not retard. Stop trying to weasel you way out you were wrong and got corrected just live with it.

I did not enter into taxation.
It is not a contract.
There are no rules.
The government promises nothing in exchange for our money.

>>130841844
Is the state forcing you to earn an "income"? No.
Is the state forcing you to "purchase" goods? No.
You choose to do so because it's the easier way to live. Ergo you willingly participate in the transaction.
You cannot have your cake and eat it too.

>>130842238
fifty shades of taxation

>>130842163
Oh, I mentioned higher education and didn't write about it in the end. In Poland and other Yuropean countries it would be necessary to pass a bill allowing unis and colleges to demand pay for education like it is in the USA

>>130842281
Do you benefit from living in society?

>>130842397
>do ancaps believe completely reasonable stances held by conservatives and liberals alike in the US? Yes.
ok

>>130842296
The thing is Poland may be white now but how long can the conservatives keep the status quo? One little grassroots movement by Soros and you can open the muslim ghetto in Warsaw.

>>130835308
>Consent can be given explicitly or implicitly.
so if a refugee comes and rapes you even though you haven't voted for open borders it's all fine because you given "implicit consent" to rape you by staying in your home land instead of fleeing to some cave under the sea where globalists have no power over you because there's no one else to tax there?
lol

Ok fuckers sharia blue must be sponsoring this shit because I can't believe how many people can't call taxation theft.

Fucking shills.

>>130842557
>Do you benefit from living in society?
Society is not Government.

>>130836597
>Purely voluntary exchange made with the knowledge that taxes will be imposed
>imposed
you debunked your own shit logic here.

>>130842426
Jesus fucking christ. I said that cause he was equating communism with ancap that's why i said he doesn't understand both of them.
I guess you're not a native speaker?

The question is if ancap remains a probable inevitability than what forms of government and in what order would lead us to it?

Social Democracy > Communism > Fascism > Ancap?

or what?

>>130841869
Maybe. But people say "we already have the truth it's called the Quran" and that isn't really an argument.

We didn't even really work out an explanation for profits until historically recently. Maybe market incentive is a superior organizing principle to rhetoric / voting and that was knowledge we didn't have when constructing governments.

>>130842622
>I want all the great things about society but I don't want the institutions necessary to create and maintain them :'(

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>>130842579
>completely reasonable
That's why your country is going to shit.

>>130842756
these ideology flags need to be gassed

>>130833046
>Where does the authority to levy a tax on a transaction come from?
Governments have the exclusive use of force in a geographic location.
Submit to the government or be punished.
Governments will escalate until you submit or you die.

>>130842622
any society with more than 100 people is the same as a government. Do you benefit from living in a large society?

>>130842842
Yeah, they are gay

>>130842486
>it's the easier way to live.
No it us often ONLY way to live on many territories as non monetary natural economy is banned by law there.
>>130842280


Also don't forget about property tax and poll tax (outdated now but having historical precedents)

>>130842839
take off the mask and let me see your country then

>>130842397
Church and state separated? We want the state gone.
>>130842397
Created equal? Only on the terms of natural rights. All men are not equal, but we respect all having ownership of themselves and their actions.
Liberals? Maybe in the sense that we are anti state, but we oppose democracy.

>>130837971
that's not really comparable
because ultimately only your own survival instinct is forcing you to work to feed yourself while taxation is forced by a secondary force that isn't related to you.
being enslaved by others is not the same as being enslaved by your own survival needs, retard.

>>130838395
>My bad, didn't know your flag was larp
>carry on friend
nice argument, friend.

>>130842584
The thing is evertime this shit happens (muslim and other non-whites living in white countries) it's almost 100% funded by state money (your taxes) and you are forced to live with them and serve them if you have a business (no freedom of association).
Almost no leftist would fund or live with them, they only support this cause other people are paying and living near the gettos

>>130842964
Of course, but I've been arguing from a reference of the US.

>>130842622
That's true, but how do you ensure society doesn't allow things like crime without some kind of creation and enforcement of law and how do you do that without some form of governmental body, even if it's just people getting together and deciding as a whole?

How do you keep that process of law going without resources?

Governments don't really exist.
Just like forests don't exist.
There are just people,
just as there are just trees.

Can one tree speak for them all? No.
Then why do you think one person can speak for us all? Madness.

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>>130842968
That's not an argument you know that. The enlightenment and liberalism led us to the modern society of radical relativism and individualism. The modern man holds nothing sacred.

>>130842579
>completely reasonable
GTFO kike shill

>>130831423
>If the tax is voluntary, then it is not theft.

If the tax is voluntary, it's not a tax. /thread

>>130842756
>Makes bad argument
>gets disproven
>tries to insult me

Nice try, ancap reporting in and you are 100% wrong my dude.

>>130843178
Censure criminals.
Don't feed them.
Don't trade with them.
Isolate them from your community.
Drive them out.

>>130842819
Yeah i guess Europe/US didn't create nothing of value until the social state behemoth was built to control every part of your life

>>130842975
>We want the state gone
And that's never going to work. Who will maintain an army, infrastructure and what about the nuclear arsenal? Are you going to sell it to the highest bidder?

>>130843006
>your own survival instinct is forcing you to work to feed yourself
How can labor itself be taxed? Please explain, my proletariat comrade.

>>130843076
Thanks.

>>130842819
>>I want all the great things about society but I don't want the institutions necessary to create and maintain them :'(
most of them are not needed, yet you are forced to pay for them to function while private businesses would provide better options because they are forced into competition.

>>130843383
If people stop showing up to their government jobs, then the government ceases to exist.
It could happen tomorrow morning.

>>130843304
This guy is right. He totally proved that polish kike wrong. /agree

>>130843245
That's post-modernism, not liberalism. Post-modernism didn't pop up till the mid to late 20th century.

>>130843502
>How can labor itself be taxed? Please explain, my proletariat comrade.
by taxing products and services and transactions generated by said labor

>>130843315
This is a horribly inefficient system. What if someone decides they can make money by breaking the shunning process? Any ancap society will always be outcompeted by other societies that use more efficient ways of enforcing social norms and unifying a population.

>>130831423
the US government should start a Patreon

>>130843369
Stop arguing like a jew.

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>>130843245
>former soviet country trying to talk shit on america

>130842819
>>I want all the great things about society but I don't want the institutions necessary to create and maintain them
Voluntary institutions are fine.
Like an institution? Stay. Support it.
Change your mind? Never help it again.
Governments can't offer this.

If governments ran on donations rather than taxes wouldn't that make them more of a religion?

Damn! Imagine if the military were somewhat of a cult!

>>130843543
>It could happen tomorrow morning
Yes and tomorrow morning I could buy a ticket to Berlin and drive a car bomb to the Reichstag.

>>130843315
What if criminals are rich at the time of their censure? How do you keep people from feeding them and trading with them? How does this situation not just devolve into factions?

>>130842312
Oh no, I absolutely agree it would be a logistical nightmare and in all likelihood very undesirable. I was just pointing you in the right direction, don't bother trying to make an ethical argument for taxes while at the same time supporting the presupposition that theft is always wrong. That's all old and tired. You could make a very solid non-ethical argument, as you have done, or an ethical argument I suspect would be pretty interesting.

I do support taxes, but I haven't thought it through how it would be morally consistent. I don't really know where that road goes.

>>130843628
Then your taxing those specific products services and transactions. Not the labor.
If your argument is that ALL of the products services and transactions generated by it are taxed, that's not the case in the US.

>>130843916
>your
you're

>>130842598
I was making fun of his example of tax by replacing tax with "protection fees"

>>130843694
> Government
> efficient
I am pretty sure you could create a little vigilante group to drive out neighborhood criminals, and it wouldn't cost half your wages.

>>130843627
No I am talking exactly about liberals. Men are not equal.

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>>130843830

>>130843842
>How does this situation not just devolve into factions?
What is wrong with factions?
Do we not have factions now?
Last I checked, half the U.S. population is out lumbering around chanting "Not MUH President!1!"

>>130843749
>Stop arguing like a jew.
Is this supposed to be an argument?
The while social state bullshit was mainly started by Bismarck as a REACTION to the growing influence of communism.

Basically stealing food and throwing scraps to peasants so they don't rebel against the authority, there is nothing noble about it. Socialists (like Hitler too) try to give it some high and mighty purpose but in essence it is, was and always will be that what i said

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>>130843760

>>130831988
You are forced to pay taxes because if you evade taxes you will be imprisoned.

>>130843916
>If your argument is that ALL of the products services and transactions generated by it are taxed, that's not the case in the US.
where are you trying to get to? even if not all transactions are taxed, taxation is still theft.

>>130844049
You're confusing economic efficiency with social efficiency.

>>130844066
No they aren't, which is why liberalism is about equality of opportunity. Leftism is about equity; Neo-Marxism is the epitome of leftism. It's not liberal at all. That's why neo-marxists hate liberals.

>>130844224
Exactly and if a big goverment that protects it's citizens doesn't exist expect a revolution or even better an invasion.

>>130844307
Is it socially efficient to coddle criminals?
How does putting people between you and the punishment make it any better?
Do you not think that the courts and the jails are not run by people?
Why so distant? Meet out punishment yourself.

I wouldn't mind the nwo if it was just a website.

>>130844224
>Is this supposed to be an argument?
No, you low-IQ chimp, it's me telling you to stop arguing like a jew.
i'm not gonna sit here and debunk all your reductio ad absurdums just because you can't debate with honest logic.

The essence of civilization is to control a large population of people, which forms them into a society.

Ancaps are fundamentally wrong because they assume the goal of society should be to maximize total wealth, when really it should be maximizing the cultural health of your race. There are other inconsistencies with ancaps, mainly in that the economy would fall apart without a stable society, but the main thing is just that it's a morally retarded point of view to begin with.

>>130844408
>That's why neo-marxists hate liberals
Yes because liberals don't follow marx but try to create something like what we have in modern Sweden.

>>130844184
We do have factions and they're causing massive amounts of problems in terms of getting anything done. There are people physically attacking each other in the streets and that's WITH laws against it. What would happen if there wasn't a set legal framework to guard against that?

>>130844297
>Where are you trying to get to?
Read OP.

> If you know a transaction will be taxed, and you voluntarily engage in the transaction, then you cannot claim the gov't stole your property. You implicitly consent to the tax by voluntarily engaging in a taxable exchange.

>>130831423
Taxation is theft. If I am buying something from a street vendor, we will never pay taxes. We will only pay taxes when government men with guns are there to force us to pay taxes.

There is a voluntary tax for whoever wants to pay extra. I've never seen it used.

>>130842486
You seem to have a hard time with English. Are you that same nazi roleplayer I retorted here >>130838441 ? If so you should answer that. If not I'm surprised by the low quality of our naziposters. Two in a row is quite the coincidence.

It's not forcing you to work, no. It's not forcing you to purchase goods. It is forcing you to pay taxes on that income, and it is forcing the business from which you purchase goods to pay taxes. The fact that that forcing is contingent on another action (earning an income/selling goods) does not imply consent for being taxes on the grounds that you work, or sell goods. That's your argument, your entire argument. That you only get taxed if you work, so by working you consent to being taxed. That taxation is by nature consensual, since it's contingent on your working and you chose to work.

That's not how ethics works. You can't absolve the agent with the justification that his actions were contingent on another's. You have plenty of analogies in this very thread showing you how ridiculous that train of thought is, and had them before you even made that point.
If you don't start making some sense, you'll have to goad someone else into replying.

>>130844490
A 3rd party is less biased. Why do you think it's a good thing to have the person wronged meet out punishment. That's how you get 3rd world nigger savagery, like someone cutting off arms for stealing a piece of bread.

>>130844709
how is having a different goal than you an inconsistency?

>>130844816
In that transaction with the street vendor, what are you giving him in exchange?

>>130837858
Killing you and taking your stuff would be very useful.
I guess since morality means little to you, I am justified in doing so.

>>130844713
I think "liberals" is a misnomer here, but I understand what you are saying. I just think you're misattributing the ideology. Post-modernists =/= Liberals.

>>130831423
>Taxation is not necessarily theft
>You implicitly consent to the tax by voluntarily engaging in a taxable exchange.
then why is it illegal to engage in a non taxable exchange?

>>130844738
>> If you know a transaction will be taxed, and you voluntarily engage in the transaction, then you cannot claim the gov't stole your property. You implicitly consent to the tax by voluntarily engaging in a taxable exchange.
but this makes no logic sense and it's been proved time and again in this thread. there is no "implicit consent" and even if there was, "explict consent" would trump it and cause a fundamental logic flaw in your argument. what if i decided to say NO when government agents came to steal taxes from me and a second part of a transaction that has nothing to do with the government? who decides that implict consent has more value than explicit consent in this case? the government? why? because force? then how isn't that stealing? how is that legitmate?

>>130844966
Our (Nat-soc) goal is superior.

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>>130845335
really jostled my apostles

>>130845335
>Our (Nat-soc) goal is superior.
by which measure?

>>130844920
No. I try to be in as few ancap threads as possible. They last too long for my liking.

>It is forcing you to pay taxes on that income
Somebody else claimed this but couldn't substantiate it.
>It is forcing the business from which you purchase goods to pay taxes.
Again, best for this discussion to be in reference to the US. The OP's American, and I don't know the details about Swedistan's tax policies anyway.

>That's your argument, your entire argument. That you only get taxed if you work, so by working you consent to being taxed
Try reading next time.

>>130844408
Opportunity is immeasurable, the only grounds used to determine it is results and the only solutions to the non-problem of inequity are punishments and outright discrimination. There is no one advocating equality of opportunity who isn't in effect advocating equity - equality of results.

There is no way to quantify, or even prove the existence of an inequality of opportunity never mind fixing it. No, those classical liberals you jerk off to weren't for equality of opportunity; they were for equal treatment. That the state act morally and treat people the same. Not for treating incompetent niggers favorably to achieve some vague nonsense like "equal opportunity".

>>130840524
>how do you implement and enforce a law without any sort of governance?
A law is just an opinion backed by a gun.

>>130845296
>There is no "implicit consent"
Yes there is. You choosing to engage in the transaction that you KNOW is taxed, as opposed to ones that aren't.
>"explict consent" would trump it
After you've already engaged in the transaction? I think not.
>how is that legitmate?
Because it's LITERALLY their money to begin with.

>>130833046
From the need for central authority and an enforced framework of morality (rule of law, etc). Be happy that you live in the only country on the planet that actually took philosophical and moral questions into consideration before drafting your founding document.

The rest of the world is living in the remnants monarchies and communism. Where does the government derive the right to tax everyone in Europe? Well... they just can. In America? Your Constitution specifically lays out that the government needs to levy taxes as a necessary evil, and the reasoning behind it is carefully laid out by your founders in the Federalist and Anti-Federalist Papers.

>Tax is illiegal
Let's formulate it like that: You live on someone's property (your state) and have the ability to use its services (roads, hospitals, police security, even playgrounds), that's what you pay taxes for.

So in the spherical vacuum the state shall use the taxes only for your wealth and security (lets go with germany for example), which means that 100% of the taxes have the possibility to be directly used by you (clean streets, new playgrounds, whatever you can imagine you expect from state).

>little insert: by the way tax is not only the thing you pay each month from your income, everything you buy is taxed too, so you can imagine it as if you are paying tax twice - even when you don't earn "white" money you still pay those taxes indirectly

Now to the problem: Whaat if the state uses its tax money they collected from people like you not for the people who paid them, but for their own unreasonable wishes? For example to bring and feed millions of people who doesn't even belong here?

>>130845647
>That's your argument, your entire argument. That you only get taxed if you work, so by working you consent to being taxed
>Try reading next time.
but that's literally what you said
and swedistan btfoed you pretty hard

you should probably keep staying out of ancap threads, they're smarter than you

>>130845647
>Somebody else claimed this but couldn't substantiate it.
It is extremely simple. Don't pay your taxes. They'll tell you to pay up, or else, and if you don't you'll be fined and sent to prison.
>Try reading next time.
I did.
>Is the state forcing you to earn an "income"? No.
>You choose to do so because it's the easier way to live. Ergo you willingly participate in the transaction.
Your argument is that because you decide to work, you implicitly agree to pay taxes. That's a faulty argument. You can't absolve the agent with the justification that his actions were contingent on another's.

>>130845790
First of all, I don't jerk off to classical liberal ideology or any political ideology. Secondly, equality of opportunity and equity are mutually exclusive ideas. To bring about equity, you have to sacrifice equality of opportunity and vice versa.

I think we're talking past each other by confusing terms. Let's call it equal treatment as that seems to be your preferred term for it. That's certainly not a leftist ideal, but it is a liberal one. That's the point I was making as an aside. leftists are not liberal and liberals are not leftists.

>>130845994
>Because it's LITERALLY their money to begin with.
yeah, money that I'm legally required to be paid in and use, I feel so free

>>130845844
So, if my neighbor pisses me off by violating my opinion and I shoot him, I'm within the law to do so? Again, how does this not just devolve into dog-eat-dog mayhem?

>>130846178
well, the land is the property of the state so naturally you would have to either accept that or leave

the state will usually have laws or a constitution restricting its actions, serving as a sort of contract with the members, which would usually be intended to prevent such cases

but it's the state's property, so that's the way it is.

>>130846418
move somewhere else if you don't like it
if you want the benefits that come with living in a first world country, you have to accept the terms and rents (taxes) that come with living on land that it owns

you can't have your cake and eat it

>>130846197
>but that's literally what you said
No that's what your undeveloped brain interpreted from what I said.
Work just means engaging in labor to achieve a result.
The result doesn't have to be "earning a paycheck from your fat sweaty boss, which you knew would be taxed"

>>130846539
You need to take a N.A.P.

>>130846297
Oh, I don't mind that at all. Jumped to conclusions and figured you were one of those guys who thinks the government should step in and right any wrong, from societal like some unobservable discrimination to circumstantial like not being born with a diamond spoon up your ass.

My bad. Equal treatment is alright.

File: 1492884769304.gif (2MB, 324x208px) Image search: [Google]

2MB, 324x208px

>>130846929
>ancom trying to tell us taxes are A-ok and you can't have your cake and eat it

>>130846220
>Don't pay your taxes
If I'm not engaging in any taxable transactions, what taxes are there for me to play? Can you try to keep up, please?

>Your argument is that because you decide to work, you implicitly agree to pay taxes.
It's that you decide to earn an "income". The quotations are there for a reason, because you're using the word to refer to what's specifically earned from the transactions we were talking about.

>>130846418
>legally required to be paid in and use
Someone substantiate this, please.
Maybe it's actually the case?

>>130847225
just because I disagree with property rights doesn't mean I can't point out contradictions made by those idolising them

>>130847233
You dumb fucking nigger can't even shift the goalposts properly. That argument has the same exact problem. You can't absolve the agent with the justification that his actions were contingent on another's.

>>130846929
Well the state is property of God so maybe it should abide by his tenets or move somewhere else.

>>130847482
Excuse me... The earth is property of God so maybe the state should move its land holdings.

>>130847304
http://www.communitycurrencieslaw.org/employment-laws/
>Federal law provides that “payment of the prescribed wages” (which I take to mean the legally required minimum wages) must be “in cash or negotiable instrument payable at par,”1 (which I take to mean cash or something immediately convertible to cash, such as a check or direct deposit).

>>130847337
redpill me on ancom
do you unironically believe there's nothing wrong with someone stealing from you?

garbage

>>130847482
the state is simply a collective body that owns and administrates land

it's hardly dependent on God

You can have one based purely on property rights, and it would function no differently

>>130847304
>do we have a legal tender
Yes you dumb fuck.

>>130846630
>the government taxes, services, products and transactions that are fundamental to life
All of them?

>why not?
Because you'd be reneging on the terms.
>what if i explicitly say that i don't consent to any of this before the transaction?
Then don't carry out the transaction. Purrty simple.

>it isn't, they aren't the ones that worked for and traded the goods being taxed.
Yes they did. "the goods" that are actually being collected is currency.

>>130847888
God just created and possesses the universe. He's not dependent on anything/anyone.

He created property rights.

What's your point?

>>130847381
>he thinks being a sub-60 IQ mongoloid and not understanding my arguments the first time around means I'm shifting the goalposts.
Nah.

>You can't absolve the agent with the justification that his actions were contingent on another's.
Why do you keep copy-pasting this? Taxation being contingent on something has nothing to do with the question at hand.

>>130831423

Except you can't even work on your own without them forcing you to file taxes under "self employment". Try getting rid of that first.

>>130831423
Even if it's theft. Who are you going to call for help?

>>130847863
There's a distinction between personal property and private property

We're willing to grant members of the group exclusive ownership of things to the extent that doing so benefits the group, for example, granting people their own homes gives them some stability and security, and both these things will let them contribute more

However, property rights aren't seen as sacred, so if someone for instance, buys up all the houses and uses that position of power charge to charge extortionate rents, respecting their rights would be actively detrimental, so we wouldn't

something like that

but th

>>130848529
>Why do you keep copy-pasting this?
Because it's a direct refutation of your argument. Taxation being contingent on something has nothing to do with the question at hand.

>>130848422
nice spooks nerd

>>130831423
>If the tax is voluntary
That's called a donation, you humonguous faggot.

>>130847900
>Does the government providing legal tender mean it is the only medium for exchange allowed in transactions?
No, you thick, retarded Muslim.

>>130848747
>There's a distinction between personal property and private property
So you can't own a residence? That's just terrible.

>>130848916
>not reading the post

>>130848747
"We're willing to grant" - all you are doing is sacrificing the logically consistent position of natural rights (self ownership and the ownership of ones actions) on the alter of might makes right.

>>130848839
question, what's the difference between tax and rent?

[spoiler]whether ancaps complain about it[/spoiler]

>>130848747
who's "the group" logistically speaking?

>>130831848

> it's only theft when it's used for things that I don't like

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

IT'S A CULT YOU IDIOT

>>130848906
I love how it took you 10 minutes to google that term.

>natural rights

if it's not in our interest to respect these, why should we

because it's somehow "unnatural"?

>>130849270
I'd put it as people you share some level of identity with

it'd just be whoever you're co-operating with, and doesn't have to include everyone

>>130848995
More than enough.

>>130849147
>question, what's the difference between tax and rent?
rent is voluntary and doesn't cross the line of private property

>>130848752
If it were a direct refutation you'd be able to explain how, instead of copy-pasting it.

>>130849492
so ancom is tribalism?

>>130849531
if you're on someones land and they charge rent, you have to pay, it's not voluntary, either that or leave

how does this differ from tax on land owned by a state

>>130849147
If you own the land you don't have to pay rent any longer?

>>130849587
Just go look up the law in whatever irrelevant shithole you live in. I'll give you some time when you decide to google contingent. See you in 15.

>>130831988
You are technically correct. But you are making someone make the choice between doing work and not doing work.
What happens when they say: ok you are taxing me so much I won't get anything out of working so I wont work. You get a couple of options: Ok you die from starvation then, ok we will feed you, ok you get a bullet.
If the answer is one then people can blame you for starving people to death. If the answer is two nobody will work and you will have to chose another answer. And if the answer is three then you end up like the USSR.
So basically, its either a gun to the head now or a gun to the head in the future.... hardly a volunteer exchange.

>>130849661
i guess you could say that

>>130849414
Euro countries tend to have different terms than Americans.
I love how I'm trying to make sure we're on the same page but you're still managing to avoid giving a real argument.

>>130849756
You can have an ancom society in ancap so what is the problem?

>>130849698
you don't fully own land when you buy it from a state, and this is made clear

you're still restricted in what you can do on it

a private landowner would similarly be able to grant limited, but exclusive and transferable rights towards a piece of his land to tohers for a fee

>>130849686
>how does this differ from tax on land owned by a state
because the state doesn't legitimately own land, ownership is acquired through trade. the state haven't bought the land from the people that habit it. it is nothing but a mafia stealing at gun point.

>>130849710
>irrelevant shithole
>context of the entire thread is literally exchanges in America.
Waiting for an argument.

I want the perfect media device that will last forever and maybe a subscription fee.

That's it.

Is that so much to ask?

>>130849756
then where does the "com" in ancom come from?
since seizing the means of production requires you to attack someone outside the tribe, that makes it more akin to pillaging from a foreign invader than communism

>>130850078
Taxation being contingent on something has nothing to do with the question at hand.

Shoo, shoo. Go google.

>>130847043
I like the NAP in principle, but it's not a perfect solution in all situations and should be seen as a guideline, not gospel, imo.

>>130847114
No worries, buddy. My own philosophy is that overcoming personal obstacles is an important part of the human experience. I certainly don't think government should be sticking it's fingers in all facets of society to "fix" problems. Even if it could, to solve people's problems for them is to rob them of the glory of achievement.