>does not realize taxation is literally theft What the FUCK?

MUH

ROADS

>>130814613
Taxation = rent.
If you don't want to pay your rent, fuck off the state's property, asshole. There's plenty of unclaimed land in Antarctica. You don't have to pay taxes to anyone there. Get going.

>theft
>after which you receive material benefits

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>>130814613
it's not theft, it's racketeering.

>>130815688
So we live in a feudalist society? No one actually owns any property?

>>130814613
Or a payment to a service (army, police, infrastructure).

>Inb4 how do you use the gadsden flag statist

If you're anarcho- anything, you're an idealist LARPer

>>130814613
It's more like extortion, since there is a threat of force if you do not comply.

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>>130814613
I hate my commie government so much. Taxes are insanely high in Germany.

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>>130814613

Took this today. At least let us decide what our tax is spent on.

Taxationis the price of civilized life, if you want to live in a tax free shithole go to Africa.

>>130815945
Yes

>>130815945
No we don't, you fuck wit. We live in a modern society, and we comply to its modern rules and laws. It might not be what you had imagined the society to be or what it should be, but it's not feudal in any sense of the word. You own property based on your state's definition of owning. If you don't want to abide by these rules, then do fuck off to Antarctica.

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>>130814613
only some kinds of taxes are theft

A tax based on rental value or land value is not theft

A tax on wages or interest implies that the income one receives in return for the exertion of one's labor, or for the use of one's capital goods, belongs (at least in part) to others. This conflicts with the basic libertarian principle that you have an exclusive right to the fruits of your labor.

A tax on rent implies that the income one receives for the value of the land one holds belongs to others. Since land itself (1) is not the fruit of anyone's labor, and (2) is that to which all have an equal right of access; and since the rent of land (1) is not a return to labor, and (2) reflects the extent to which Locke's proviso has been violated, a "tax" on rent does not conflict with the principle that you have an exclusive right to the fruits of your labor, but is in fact a just and necessary means of upholding it.

Thus, the part of one's income that is taken via taxation of wages and interest constitutes the enforcement of a wrongful debt, whereas the part of one's income that is taken via taxation of rent constitutes the enforcement of a rightful debt.

i hope this meme dies soon.

>>130816330
Taxes will be spent on removing that

Only after a certain point. Something like 10%, 20% max (including direct and indirect taxes).

>>130816620
It won't. People love feeling like they're being oppressed. They love it more than anything. They would choose that feeling over the reparations they claim they should have and the changes they say should be implemented.

>>130814789
Private firms build roads.
Government just makes money calling them by overcharging since they seem to have unlimited budget.

>>130814613
I want my money to go towards infrastructure, public facilities like parks and libraries. But not fucking socialist programs that infringe on the rights of others.

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>>130814613
how are you feeling about the latest captcha?

>>130815688
>fuck off the state's property
so all property is "the states"

Assuming I owned property and I don't agree with the direction the country's going in and I don't agree with the amount the Prime minister or MPs are giving themselves, What do I do? Fuck off to where? Antarctica - you need to be a scientist and have permits and such. Its like the most protected place you can go.

>>130817072
>Not having a 4chan Pass
lol, poorfags.

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Applying laws without providing opportunity of representation and vote, is colonialism.

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>>130815688
>Taxation = rent

if only. Our current system taxes everything but rents. What we need is a land value tax or something that can capture community site rental values and return them to their rightful owners in the form of a citizens dividend

>>130817213
Why the fuck should you have any say in how the state runs itself? It's just a large company on whose ground you happened to be born. Be glad the company seems to have some sort of democracy at all.

When the mob does it, it's extortion.

I don't have a problem with tax but I have the problem with how much
>Sales tax
>Green taxes
>Income taxes
>Sin taxes
>Property taxes

I sat down and did the math and about 60% of my income is taxed at the end of the day. That's absurd. And for what? Seriously, how in the ever loving fcluck is that possible and to run billions and billions in deficits year after year.

>>130817213
You vote or you start killing politicians. Can you stop being anclap now?

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I can never believe how many people on /pol/ defend the state - like it needs defending. Theres more bluepilled brainwashed brainlets on here than there are redpilled "woke" folk. Its embarrassing.

If you like paying an arbitrary price for any service rendered or not, I can send you a bill for this post, right? and charge you "whateer" for reading it, right? I mean according to statists.......

>>130815688
Yes, yes, you work for the government, not the other way around. Very, very good goy

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>>130817611
no taxes should be levied on activities consumptive productive or recreational

tax land not man

>>130815846
I break into your house
>Steal thousands of dollars from you
>Come back with $300 worth of groceries and the rest I take as a cut for myself and my colleagues

>>130817535
Is this a LARP?

>>130817782
I fucking hate you leafs with such a passion. Why has no-one nuked your country yet? Even your Nazis are faggots.

>>130817949
It's common sense. I hate you ancaps with a passion as well. I can only take so much stupidity in a day, and I've met my fill today tenfold. Let me spell out why you're a retard: THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A STATE AND A LARGE CORPORATION INSIDE AN ANCAP 'SOCIETY'

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>>130817614
ALL the options for voting are the same option, what to do now?

>>130817535
>How to have a totalitarian shithole 101

>>130817768
>>130817782
>waaaaah government waaaaaah aggression

It's not about that you fucking mongoloids. Do you think that snekmen are the only one's on /pol/ that have figured out that the government sometimes doesn't act in the interest of the nation?

Saying "taxation is theft" means nothing, it's just like.. your opinion man. What you think doesn't matter in the context.

>>130818112
That's irrelevant to the current conversation. We will always have s state, an authoritarian or not.

>>130817611
To add to this I renovated my house and now have to pay more tax because my property value increased due to work I did on it by myself.

You can't even take care of your property without being forced to pay more taxes. It's absurd. How can anyone justify this?

>>130818069
The difference is consent.......

>>130817768
Taxation is the repayment of debt incurred by the government providing infrastructure to raise you and facilitate your birth.

Your parents consented for you by means of having you as a child, and you consent by continuing to live on government owned land.

If you don't want to pay taxes, go to an unclaimed island and establish your own country.

>>130818087
I already said.

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>>130814613
since none of you faggots want to talk about how the land value tax and the Georgist paradigm is the best possible tax and only morally just position im going to go ahead and shit post a bunch of benefits of the LVT. Try and refute them

>pro tip
you cant

>Georgeism reconciles common land rights with private tenure, free markets and modern capitalism.

>Those who got the upper hand by securing land tenures would support public services, so wages and commerce and capital formation could go untaxed.

> To pay the taxes, landowners would have to use the land by hiring workers (or selling to owner-operators and owner-residents). This would raise demand for labor; labor, through consumption, would raise demand for final products.

>To pay the workers, landowners would have to produce and sell goods, hereby raising supply and precluding inflation. Needed capital would
come to their aid by virtue of its being untaxed. Thus, George would cut the Gordian knot of modern dilemma-bound economics by raising demand, raising supply, raising incentives, improving equity, freeing up the market, supporting government, fostering capital formation, and paying public debts, all in one simple stroke.

>George's proposal enables us to lower taxes on labor without raising taxes on capital. Indeed, it lets us lower taxes on both labor and capital at once, and without reducing public revenues.

>>130818297
You're a certified retard. Tell me, what consent do you have in an ancap society once all the land there is has been claimed by someone. Where can you go to live by your own rules?

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>>130814613
>George's proposal enables us to lower taxes on labor without raising taxes on capital. Indeed, it lets us lower taxes on both labor and capital at once, and without reducing public revenues.

> Georgist tax policy reconciles equity and efficiency. Taxing land is progressive because the ownership of land is so highly concentrated among the most wealthy,'8 and because the tax may not be shifted. It is efficient because it is neutral among rival land-use options: the tax is fixed, regardless of land use. This is one favourable point on which many modern economists actually agree, although they keep struggling against it

>George showed that a tax can be progressive and pro-incentive at the same time. Think of it! An army o fneo-classicalists preach dourly that we must sacrifice equity and social justice on the altar of "efficiency". They need that thought to stifle the demand for social justice that runs like a thread through The Bible, The Koran and other great religious works.

>The only shifting of a land tax is negative. By negative shifting I mean that the supply-side effects of taxing the rent of land will raise supplies of goods and services, and raise the demand for labor, thus raising the bargaining power of median people in the marketplace, both as consumers and workers. This effect makes the tax doubly progressive: it undercuts the holdout power and bargaining power of landowners vis-a-vis workers, and also vis-a-vis new investors in real capital. This effect also makes the landrent tax doubly efficient.

>>130814613
Taxation is not theft

Taxation is the reason why i can literally get free education, health care and no fucking worries abt my life.

However in your (((Welfare State))) they probably choose to spend the money somewhat differently

Taxation is not a theft its the people spending the money that are thieves. fight it for real if you aren't happy with it.

Assuming you dont live in a turd shit country you have the power to go into politics and first of all learn that some of the stuff politicians spend money on is necessary and change those things that aren't

>>130818181
It is though. Why tax men who are simply doing business between two consenting parties and exchanging business. The only tax that should be levied is tax is land which the government "rules" over considering it is on their land. Otherwise you are unjustly taxing production.

>>130817964
>He enjoys being cucked

>>130818270
So you are just going to stand back and let the state do what they want ?

>>130814613
>Taxation without representation is theft

I wish it was mandatory that you graduate high school before you are allowed to post here

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>>130814613
>A state, provincial or local government can finance generous public services without driving away business or population. The formulais simple: tax the rent of land, which cannot migrate, instead of the incomes of capital and people, which can. By eliminating the destructive "Wedge Effect", the land tax lets us support schools and parks and libraries and water purification and police and fire protection, etc., as generously as you please, without suppressing or distorting useful work, and without taxing investors in real capital.

> Georgist tax policy contains urban sprawl, and its heavy associated costs, without overriding market decisions or consumer preferences, simply by making the market work better. land values are the product of demand for location; they are marked by continuity in space. That shows quite simply that people demand compact settlement and centrality. A well-oiled land market will give it to them.

> Georgist tax policy creates jobs without inflation, and without deficits. "Fiscal stimulus," in the shallow modern usage, is a euphemism for running deficits, often with funny money. George's proposed land tax might be called, rather, "true fiscal stimulus". It stimulates demand for labor by promoting employment; it precludes inflation as the labor produces goods to match the new demand. It precludes deficits because it raises revenue. That is its peculiar reconciliatory genius: it stimulates private work and investment in the very process of raising revenue. It is the only tax of any serious revenue potential that does not bear down on and suppress production and exchange. As I have noted, George's fiscal policy takes two problems and composes them into one solution.

>>130818477
I don't give a fuck about what kind of a state your hypothetical state is going to be. This thread is about ancaps coming out of the woodwork to demonstrate their retardation for all the world to see.

>>130818425
>free
It costs taxes which cost money. These go into and insanely inefficient and corrupt system because it can, because their is no motive to improve.

>>130817820
This, for most of human history governments have funded themselves through property tax alone

>>130818425
>Pay taxes to cover cost of university
>Literally free

Yea that education is really doing wonders for you

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>>130814613
>Get job to not be poor
>Work to get taxed
>Taxes feed those who don't work
>Get pushed in front of train by poor shitskin while on way to work to be taxed to give to poor
>Die

Ayyyyyy.

>>130818428
It never ends with you guys..

If you started questioning the notion of property, would you die? You're a big guy, maybe you could understand what I mean if I said that property is first & foremost a legal concept enforced by the state.

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>>130814613
HG gave us the solution the problems of modern society more than 100 years ago.

(((neoliberal economics))) was invented by the elites to stifle george because they knew how powerful the idea is

> George's land tax lets a polity attract people and capital en masse, without diluting its resource base. This is by virtue of synergy, the ultimate rationale for Chamber-of-Commerce boosterism. Urban economists like William Alonso have illustrated the power of such synergy by showing that bigger cities have more land value per head than smaller ones. (Land value is the resource base of a city.) Urbanists like Jane Jacobs and Holly Whyte have written on the intimate details of how this works on the streets. Julian Simon (The Ultimate Resource) philosophizes on the power of creative thought generated when people associate freely and closely in large numbers. Henry George made the same points in 1879

>Georgist policies encourage the conservation of ecology and environment while also making jobs, by abating sprawl. It is a matter of focusing human activity on the good lands, thus meeting demands there and relieving the pressure to invade lands that are now wild and marginal for human needs. Sprawl in the urban environment is the kind most publicized, but there is analogous sprawl in agriculture, forestry, mining, recreation and other land uses and industries.
>Georgist policies strengthen public revenues while in the same process promoting economy in government. Anti-governmentalists often identify any tax policy with public extravagance. Georgist tax policy, on the contrary, saves public funds in many ways. By facilitating the creation of jobs it lowers welfare costs, unemployment compensation, doles, aid to families with dependent children and all that. It lowers jail and police costs, and all the enormous private expenditures, precautions, and deprivations now taken to guard against theft and other crime. Idle hands are not just wasted, they steal and destroy

If the monies are used to kill leftist liberals, niggers and muslims I'm happy to pay my share. Problem is they are not. State is necessary but current ones are not doing good things.

>>130818559
Nothing is hypothetical about it. I was asking would you let an entity you did not choose to exist forcefully take away freedom from you ?
Would you accept that ?

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>>130818181
So, you owe me £50-grand for reading my post. You can PayPal me. If you dont pay, a team will come round, kick in your front door and start removing goods to the amount of £50-grand.

I would ask, "are you ok with this" but that not how statism works is it?

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>>130814613
sometimes, i love to be a NEET, i mean wageslaves pay for ahmed house.

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love how the only two fagboys defending taxation are a pair of europeans. bet you also see the great virtue and necessity of a "unified europe" dontcha

suck my american cock

Remove the capital gains tax. While you're at it, dismantle social security and return the money to the people in the form of future tax breaks. If you want to talk about theft by the way, the government does it in a lot more sinister ways other than the taxes it tells you about. Try the interaction between the interest rate, government borrowing, and controlled inflation. The whole system at this point is so fucking broken it is staggering.

>>130814613
you voluntary engage in taxable transactions

VOLUNTARY = not theft

plebs btfo

>>130818309
and what right do I have to an unclaimed island over the land I was born in?

How did the state claim the land I live on in the first place?

>>130818772
Property is an idea which does not a require a state to exist. The state in minimally needed to make sure this is not taken from you in unjust manner. A small 5% tax in exchange for protection is all that is needed. Production should not be taxed only exchanges and minimally at that.

>>130819207
through right of conquest, read some fucking law/history

>>130817934
That's not a "benefit" because it's a net loss. Nice try leaf

>>130819250
But even then the state is not need as you could have a voluntary private company to do the same thing.

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>>130818391
Ok - so how do I claim the land I was born in?

>>130819207
Imagine you have your great ancap society where everyone is happy. Imagine you have a nice house. Your whole family lives there. Your sister gives birth. 20 years later your nephew says "I WAS BORN ON THIS LAND, IT'S MINE"

What do?

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>>130818909
Yeah you convinced me. Get the helicopters fucking commie ghosts of stalin whagt the fuck

>>130819287
>implying you get net gain with taxation

LOL

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>>130818391
>arguing with an egoist

>>130819461
Maybe not in Europe

>>130819275
Ok - so i'll forever be a slave to the state because I can never aggress and win "war" against the state?

>>130814613
Tell me what would your anarcocapitalist world would look like and I will tell you why it wont work.

Shit that's not even taking into account the rigged as fuck U.S. markets (different markets for different people, politicians and their capacity to move the markets however they choose, etc.) and the social engineering campaign of pooling your money into mutual funds creating a highly inefficient but extremely controlled marketplace by limiting the amount of significant participants. None of this shit is by accident and the system we have right now is pretty much the mentally challenged physically defective rape-baby of Capitalism and Socialism.

>>130819359
>Ok - so how do I claim the land I was born in?
you don't all the land is already claimed ,

>>130819403
The land hes referring to is private and already owned by someone.

>>130819359
Through war. Just like it has always been done.

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>>130819403
you let him keep the land but tax collect 100% of its site value this way he keeps "his" shit but the community gets compensated for the exclusion

ezpz everyone wins

>Pay taxes in exchange for upkeep up infrastructure and government services

>HUUR ITS THEFT!!!11!!

Listen here Clarence, just because you've been living off daddies trust fund doesnt mean you get to not pay taxes for shit you use literally every day.

>>130819609
maybe *you* can't because your a weak fuck with no leadership quality, but plenty of states have lost wars

DO U EVEN HISTORY BRO?

>>130819792
And how is a state any different? The king who founded the land owned all of it. Now his heirs do. You are trespassing.

>>130819807
see:>>130819609

>>130819006
Please tell me this is fake.

>>130816330
I hate those type of walls.

>>130819813
Your household sounds oppressive as fuck, m8. You're going to have a war in your living room.

>>130819250
>Property is an idea which does not a require a state to exist. The state in minimally needed to make sure this is not taken from you in unjust manner.

This is accurate with the exception to the word 'minimally'. The state is needed exactly as much as it takes to dissuade violent takeover of property. Private property is not the only way of managing resources, you have to argue for the reason why we should rely only on private property.

>>130814613
Who is stealing it from me? I give them the money willingly

>>130816378
Good commie

>yes this 90% tax is justified bc the majority said so. Thank you mob for not killing me! This is so civilized!

>>130819609
Yes. Tough luck. Just like you wouldn't win against a mega corporation either. You could ally with like minded people and revolt, but doing so would turn your group into a state.

>>130819814
>government services
Not all of us are niggers on welfare Tyrese. Remind me why I should be paying for other people's upkeep. Go ahead, I'll wait.

>>130819892
I dont think "leadership qualities" can compete with aircraft carriers. I'll get to saving my fiat money for one tho.

DO U EVEN REALITY BRO?

>>130820125
The quintessential function of a state is to guarantee the security for its people from outside threats, like invading armies and raiding parties. You pay taxes for that. Anything else is suprefluous, and you should probably do something to change it. That would result in a minimalist state, but not anarchocapitalism.

>>130819896
because the king is just another human being like you or me. Theres no reason for one person to have ALL the land. The land traditionally belong to the people who work it and make it productive, right?

>>130816158
how else would they support all the fresh jobless rapefugees?

>>130819955
Apparently its actually happening

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>>130819994
u wot m8

>>130820274
You need an organized crew to even run an aricraft carrier. Leadership is always the bottle-neck.

It's not a theft
It's a robbery

>>130820499
>The land traditionally belong to the people who work it and make it productive, right?
So you're a communist, then. Hint: it doesn't work.

And do consider this simple example, since that shouldn't be too abstract for you: >>130819403

>>130815688
So you're saying we don't actually own any property, then? So "capitalism" is a lie?

>>130820274
They absolute do you dumbfuck. PEOPLE run that aircraft carrier and you can coopt them

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>>130820739
What you are taught as "capitalism" results in inequality and inefficiency because it lacks a theory to manage common resources. It doesn't even recognize that there is such a thing as common resources. Georgism corrects this flaw by not only recognizing common resources like land, minerals, water, fish stocks as such, but adds that by managing these resources with user fees, you can get rid of all other taxation and remove impediments to economic development. So under Georgism, regular folk are mostly taxed in proportion to the value of any land they may possess. The vast majority of people would pay a lot less than they currently pay in income, payroll and consumption taxes, but absentee landlords would pay a lot more, and the mortgage business of banks would be an order of magnitude smaller, because land taxes cancel the benefits of homeownership as an investment. The system also discourages the inefficient use of land, controlling sprawl and inefficient farming practices. Housing and transportation costs would be greatly reduced, thus allowing for a greater equality of opportunity.

>>130814613
Taxation without representation is theft,

if you agree you want to pay taxes and pay them to have public services its not bad. But if people pay taxes only white property holding males should vote

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMGZtkMS3sQ

>>130816810
So if some guy breaks into your house and steals 10% of your stuff, it's not theft?

>>130820739
>So you're saying we don't actually own any property, then?
I am, but you wouldn't understand the reasoning. It's all a social construct, as they say. Abstract, imaginary.

>So "capitalism" is a lie?
No. We have the capability of treating imaginary things as real. In a way, they ARE real. Owning a property is defined by abstract rules, but we do abide by them, i.e., they are real. And capitalism is based on these rules, meaning it's not a lie either.

>>130820942
If that 'thief' owns the house and you haven't voluntarily paid the rent, then no. It indeed is not.

>>130819275
Most of law/history of property operated under the conception of natural law which rejects the notion that might makes right

>>130820806
coopting them isn't appealing to an ancap.
I think siding with the state demonstrates a lack of leadership qualities and wanting to go it alone demonstrates ABSOLUTELY leadership qualities.

Some how you've americaned sense and reasoning into opposites.

>>130821024
I know you think you're very smart but holy shit are you dumb
You misrepresent and misunderstand the argument every step of the way. You don't even make an attempt to understand the other side.
And then when it comes to explaining your own side you rely on buzzwords and bullshit to get your point across. There's no logical substance to anything you're saying.
Seriously, go read a fucking book.

>>130820942
not if he gives you shit like better healthcare

>>130820942
It's only theft if you don't get representation.

My question is about the military. Who in their right mind would pay for the military?
Also, since there are no rules, if you did own a military why not make up new rules and enforce them like stealing from you or they slaughter you?

Isn't ancap inherently unstable because no system is in place to prevent new powers from taking total control?

>>130816330
Build that wall higher

>>130821288
>which rejects the notion that might makes right
All of history of all life has operated under the concept of pain. Everyone wants to avoid it. If I want you to do something, all I have to do is cause you enough pain. Might indeed makes right. Everyone with half a brain cell understands this.

>>130814613
In principle if you define theft so loosely as to include getting taxed, then anarcho-capitalists are correct on their point of principle. An argument cannot be made against it within the confines of the way the anarcho capitalist defines theft, as their interpretation is just anything which doesn't amount to complete consent. Thus I will not object to the point on those grounds. I will use the anarcho capitalist logic and apply it to other things, and the challenge for you anarcho-caps will be to explain or justify why it doesn't apply. Otherwise, there is an inconsistency bias within your logic.
With all that being said, here is my objection:
All work is slavery. People would never agree to work for someone else if it was the case that they had the resources and money themselves to not need to work. Therefore, when they get a job, it is essentially involuntarily as it is required for them to do so in order to live. To say that they contractually agree to get a job is to misinterpret their consent. In their minds, they don't actually want to work, and so they are not really consenting to anything. It is just that we typically measure their decision to work as them agreeing to work. Likewise how people interpret the decision to pay taxes to implying that paying taxes is consensual. Seeing as the anarcho capitalist is angry about the latter, they should also be angry about the former and agree that all work is slavery. To not be would be to make an arbitrary distinction.

>>130821480
what if he gives you WORSE healthcare (like actual governments?). Is it theft then?

Your statist arguments are fucking ridiculous.

>>130821469
I am very smart. Ancaps are very stupid. That's why we have these 'arguments'. My first, extremely simple, example about a house and a baby being born in it should have ended all this, but you people are just too dense to understand even that.

>>130821558
>It's only theft if you don't get representation.

So if I live on an island of 10 people where everyone gets a vote, and the 9 other guys vote to kick my ass and take all my stuff, it's morally justified because I "got a say" on it?

>>130820871
Yes, very good. The user fee should be determined by the market though. Limited-time leases for different resource spots should be auctioned out by the state to prospective "owners". This ensures that the correct user fee is collected based on the value of the resource.

>>130821887
>morally justified
Morals are based on values, and values are not universal. Nature does not have any intrinsic values. What you describe might very well be completely moral in your small island of ten. Nature doesn't care either way.

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>you ancaps just don't get it. If you stand on one leg, sing "Hail Marry", and it happens to be Tuesday, then it's not theft (because I said so)! It's really that simple!

>>130822065
you're dodging the question. In this case the distinction between theft and non-theft is alluded to by the presence of morality.

>>130822129
STEALING IS MEAN!

>>130821288
please read case notes on Johnson v M'Intosh and you will realize your mistake

>>130821385
why wouldn't it be appealing to an ancap? coopt can be done via contract (i pay you to do something) or purely principal based (guys on aircraft carriers refuse to follow orders because they don't want to bomb fellow citizens)

>>130821887
More like if you are 10 people on an island and all agree to pitch in a percentage of your resources to build and maintain a shared community center you all use.

Your argument is against socialism. Socialism is 100% taxation, representation optional. That's quite different than agreeing to pitch in a small amount that is in turn provides you with a service.

Even in a magical ancap world you could create the service and only provide it to those who pay. So if they didn't pay they couldn't go to the community center. Although how do you selectively defend people who pay for military, police, or firefighter services?

>>130822129
>you ancaps just don't get it
You got that one right. I understand where you're coming from. You think you'd have all of this freedom once your anarchocapitalist world starts. At day 0. Then you would indeed have all these great freedoms, that's true. But what about day 10 000? What about when you're born on the property of someone who has lived there since day 0? What right do you have to his property?

>>130814613
>Stealing from the bourgeoisie
Good

>>130822349
>More like if you are 10 people on an island and all agree

Stop being dishonest. What you're implying is that all 10 people agreed to the proposol, which doesn't happen. Let me fix it for you:

>More like if you are 10 people on an island and 9 agree to take the richest 1's stuff to build a shared community centre

Do you see the issue now?

>>130822274
Yes, I agree that such a thing does exist as theft. I have my own values, I'm a human after all. I happen to share these values with most who live in the west, and by these values taxation is not theft. As I have explained at least three times on this thread.

>>130822636
The problem seems to be you are retarded and keep twisting the argument back to communism.
How is everyone pooling resources for something they all benefit from the same as targeting a single person to foot the bill?

Protip: It's not.

>>130815688
>implying the state has a legitimate claim over land it did not appropriate by homesteading
wew lad

>>130814613
protection money.

state works like mafia

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>>130816508

>>130817768

Yes, taxation and the state is the initiation of force. Absolutely. I want to use that force against our enemies, because they sure as hell won't hesitate to turn the guns of the state on us. Principles are a luxury afforded to winners. You can be a principled loser if you want to and lose everything, your life, your civilization with your precious principles intact, and your descendants will curse you for it. I say fuck that. Day of the helicopter and the physical removal of the leftists should be our goal.

>>130814613
If you don't like a rule, follow it, get to the top and change the rule.

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>>130821895
sounds like a nice addition georgism is in no way shape or form against free markets

>>130815846
>material benefits
like what

>>130822858
>How is everyone pooling resources for something they all benefit from the same as targeting a single person to foot the bill?

because in real life, that altruistic delusion does not happen. If you look at the taxes you pay, a ton of it goes into shit you don't want. Public schooling and public healthcare is a huge waste of money. I worked in public health care, and the sheer waste of resources is absolutely maddening, especially when you remember that they're using my tax money to do so.

Is there anything I can do to stop them wasting my money? No. I can vote against them, yet they still take my money. Having a vote doesn't change a damn thing.

>>130820739
In Canada you do not own property. Communist Criminal Cuck Sr. made sure of that.

>>130822065
No, you're just an idiot who can't follow an abstract argument.
Your "might makes right theory" is primitive as Hell and would justify literally ANY state action if you follow it to its logical conclusion.
Would you so ardently defend jailing without trial? How about arbitrary murder of citizens? Under your framework these things are justified
It's called political theory for a reason dumbass. We know that the state gets away with a lot, we're talking in normative terms i.e. while they get away with it they shouldn't be able to and it is still wrong.
Retard.

>>130823183
>Is there anything I can do to stop them wasting my money? No. I can vote against them, yet they still take my money. Having a vote doesn't change a damn thing.
Yes. You could use force. You could have the strength to make your own rules. If you don't, well, looks like you'll be living by someone else's rules then. Just like it has been always and will always be. Regardless of what you dreams you hold for your ancap utopia.

>>130823511
>No, you're just an idiot who can't follow an abstract argument.
tldr; it's the ancaps here who don't even respond to my arguments.

>>130823101
some people think physical removal and aggression goes against ancap principles, but it's not true. You have to rmemeber that all land is owned, and your ability to stay on that land alive and well depends on the goodwill of the landowner. If you do something he disapproves of (for example, being a communist) then he's perfectly justified in physically removing you from existence.

>>130814613
Become a sovereign citizen. Then all your tax problems go away.

> doesn't realise the state is no different than a criminal gang

-grabs him by the throat- back the fuck off !?!?

>>130823183
Yes bureaucratic democrats are good at wasting other peoples moneys.
that's not how the system was designed to operate.

So instead of advocating for budget adjustments, oversight, or improved efficiency of taxable income you think it's a better idea to completely destroy a functional but flawed system and start over?
Other than that, just advocate lower taxes so there is less money to waste. If it's a smaller portion of your income you are still getting representation from police and military.

Quick someone did something I don't like, burn the whole fucking world down time to start over. This isn't your video game where you can just hit the reset button every time you don't get a perfect score.

>>130823659
>If you do something he disapproves of (for example not pay taxes) then he's perfectly justified in physically removing you from existence.
Huh. Your landlord sound a lot like a state.

>>130823629
Says the guy who hasn't addressed any of the previous arguments

>>130823574
I think you're missing the point here, as we're discussing how the system SHOULD work in a better world, not how to implement a coup d'etat. The other guy thinks the way current shitty system works is actually good, which is what I was disagreeing with.

>>130823659
Would you have removed Saddam, and Ghadaffi? Both would be considered socialist by your definition.

>>130821575
Right is a normative concept. This entire thread is about the normative. What SHOULD happen not what DOES happen. You're being obtuse. If you have any normative suggestions of her governments should form and operate, please present them

>>130815688
Why is it the state's property and not mine?

Want a real rage? This guy in thia thread downforall86 id a plumber and the libs are mocking him for working and telling him he doesnt own tje money he makes. I want to kill these people
https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/6ilnko/in_major_tax_speech_paul_ryan_lays_out_plan_to/dj7kcq5/?context=3

>>130823629
ancaps don't usually respond to niggers

>>130823898
>instead of advocating for budget adjustments, oversight, or improved efficiency of taxable income

I don't because it won't work. No matter how much you fiddle with it, communism is communism. It will always be inefficient and waste everyone's money and lead to poverty. If you want evidence, look at history. It happens time and time and time again.

Do you know how to make it more efficient? Privatize it. That is the only way.

>>130824059
Please refer to this one: >>130819403

>>130816508
>We live in a modern society

Dodging the philosophical foundations of the state's legitimacy doesn't make them true.

>>130824223
heh. So a representative republic is communism in the eyes of ancap? Interesting how black and white you see the world.

>>130824044
If I owned land and somebody advocated taking it away from me and giving it "to the people", then yes, I would gladly remove them.

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>>130824388
So you are no better than the neo-cons.

>>130818391

>Tell me, what consent do you have in an ancap society once all the land there is has been claimed by someone.

To re-iterate your earlier point. We live in a "modern society". Agriculture isn't that important to making a living.

>>130824004
Could you respond to
>>130821651
Genuinely curious for an actual ancap response.

>>130824004
No, I'm not missing the point. He either lives on his own state and makes the rules, or he does not. If he does not make his own rules, then he had better abide by the rules that say he should pay taxes or build whatever community centers they want to. Our current system might suck, and it might be possible to change it, but anarchocapitalism would solve absolutely nothing.

>>130822299
Wow one wrong supreme Court case

>Inb4 you magically think all SCOTUS decisions are correctlying decided

Lochner indirectly overrules that case anyways

>>130824299
I don't bother repeating myself anymore. >>130819403 (You)

>>130824447

Sure he is. He recognizes people who are clear and present dangers to himself and the social order and he's willing to be generous enough to give such people a free helicopter ride.

>>130824348
it's actually very simple: if you take somebody else's money without their consent, it's theft. It doesn't matter what it's used for. The difference between business transactions and theft is direct consent. Therefore all government and taxation is extortion and theft based.

>>130824675
>Saddam is a danger to Ancapistan because he hates us for our freedoms.

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>>130818309
>Taxation is the repayment of debt incurred by the government providing infrastructure to raise you and facilitate your birth

>then continues to farm you for the rest of your existence. Move from farm to farm all you like. You are "free" resident anon!

>>130824348
is there a difference between sex and rape?

>>130824688
>Nobody pays for military because fuck it waste of money someone else will pay for it.
>Get invaded by a foreign power who "steals" from people to fund their military
>You are now under their rule since they have a military and can "steal" from you or lock you up.

Explain your strategy to fund the military. GUYS PLEASE PAY FOR THIS IT'S IMPORTANT!!!!

Social contract. If you don't like it feel free to fuck off and go off the grid.

>>130816158
Yeah, come to America where you will have to shill out all the money you save from taxes to get the services the state gives you in germany

>>130824495
>Our current system might suck, and it might be possible to change it, but anarchocapitalism would solve absolutely nothing.
I remember hearing this when bitcoin was a dollar

>>130824476
To answer, the difference between slavery and being "forced" to work if the ability to control the usage of your labor in the free market. A slave has no choice and is stuck working for his owner, no matter what the pay is and what the labor entails. It's anti-choice, and anti free market.

A "wage slave" in comparison can freely choose his place of employment, his conditions, and how long he stays there. There's actually completely different levels of consent here, despite both people having to work against their will. Even if the person doesn't feel so, market-wise, it does matter.

>>130825042
>taxes are ok because I force you to pay them
you rn

>>130819196
>consent, under duress. LIs that....legal?

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>>130814613
It is theft, and I plan on taking your means of production too.

>>130825079
That would be a good argument if you actually provided a single example.

>>130825193
All systems require force. It's so petty to whine about political violence. kek

>>130825193
How is that an argument. Are you guys trolling or retarded?
Explain how your society will be able to defend itself. Because if you cannot defend yourself you will be living under someone else's rules.

>>130825193
>You are such a big meanie doo doo head.
I'm sorry we don't want to care about everyone's fifi's.

>>130825042
that's a completely separate issue. A business-model to support a privatized military and defense force is a practical business-relate issue, not a moral or legal one.

But you know what's very good at coming up with successful business models? The free market!

>>130824546
You reveal that you're out of your depth, sir. This "one wrong supreme court case" is the foundation for property rights.. and you clearly don't understand how Lochner interacts with it (pro tip: it doesn't overrule the right by conquest justification)

>>130825204
What duress are you speaking of? faggot.

>>130825564
Sounds just like a democrat.

UHHH REAL WORLD PROBLEMS? YEAH UM THOSE ARE GOOD QUESTIONS AND WE WILL BE SURE TO LOOK INTO THOSE ISSUES AND COME UP WITH GOOD SOLUTIONS.

THE DEVIL IS IN THE DETAILS CAN WE GO BACK TO TALKING ABOUT WHAT COLOR I WILL PAINT MY HOUSE. YELLOW AND BLACK LIKE THE ANCAP FLAG.

Taxation is the price we pay for an organized society with ancap nightmares such as
>water supply
>sewage
>garbage disposal
>schooling
>police and fire brigade
and other infrastructure vital for human habitation.

>>130825677
>What duress are you speaking of? faggot.
What he's trying to say is that you consent to business transaction, but you never consented to being taxed on them. You are prevented choosing non-taxed transactions by the threat of force, or duress.

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>>130825781

>>130825108
Even if the levels of consent are different, could one not say: "they are still both being forced to work, the levels of consent does not matter"?
After all, when ancaps call taxation theft, the level of consent of taxation is different to ordinary levels of consent than other things. For instance, if you are physically overpowered and raped, it is quite clear that you don't consent at all. Whereas if you reluctantly fill out a tax form due to the state legally forcing you to do so, you may still not be consenting in reality, but there is still a describable level of consent we can identify, even if it is a low level of consent. Is the wage slave not in this same situation where they are forced to work even if they technically have some freedoms as to where they work? It just seems strange to me that the ancap is happy to call taxation theft, but not employment slavery when in reality very few workers genuinely want to work/would happily freely consent to work.

>>130824835
>Saddam is a danger to Ancapistan because he hates us for our freedoms.

Since when was Saddam in Ancapistan?

>>130825764
it's a completely valid response.

I'm not a plumber. If you ask me how to make a sure-fire plumbing business-model, I wouldn't be able to tell you. But does that mean that private plumbing is impossible and we need to fund it via taxes? No. It happens all the time if given the chance, using the power of the free market. In the same way, I am not a military contractor, so I cannot tell how to make a successful private military. But just like everything else, I am confident the free market can come up with a model if given the chance, as it always does.

So if you want a tl;dr : free-market magic will do it.

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>>130825537
Snekbois are weakling dorks, they rationalise their fear of aggression into a political ideology. They deserve to be bullied until they emerge as hard men ready to serve the common good.

As for you, there is nothing inherently wrong with the private management of capital on the local level, it inspires healthy competition and resourcefulness.

"There is no license any more, no private sphere where the individual belongs to himself. That is socialism, not such trivial matters as the possibility of privately owning the means of production. Such things mean nothing if I subject people to a kind of discipline they can't escape...What need have we to socialize banks and factories? We socialize human beings" - John Hitler

ITT: Poorfags bitching about their taxes because they made poor choices with their money and now they are all butthurt about coming up with the money to pay for the services they use everyday.

>>130826286
>- John Hitler

Bit off more than he could chew. He should have stuck to his shitty art.

>>130826037
>For instance, if you are physically overpowered and raped, it is quite clear that you don't consent at all

If you want to be really anal about it, you still have consent because you can bite your tongue and kill yourself. Therefore, you have avoided being raped.

Levels of consent most certainly do matter, since you always "technically" have options no matter how draconian the system (e.g., do something or go to jail). Ancap maximizes your options and consent, so therefore it's the most moral.

>>130814613
Let go /pol/
https://www.change.org/p/trey-gowdy-funding-for-a-middle-finger-on-the-white-house-lawn

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>>130814613
If you dont like it go to Somalia...no tax at all

>>130825913
You consent by implication. Going into the transaction, you know in advance whether or not it is taxed. Not all transactions are taxed.

In order to be taxed in America you must *voluntarily* engage in a taxable exchange.

>>130819207
>and what right do I have to an unclaimed island over the land I was born in?
Right of conquest.
>How did the state claim the land I live on in the first place?
Right of conquest.
Feel free to fight against your home country.
Don't be surprised if they defend themselves.
Just remember: Vae Victis

>>130824846
>then continues to farm you for the rest of your existence. Move from farm to farm all you like. You are "free" resident anon!
Stop using infrastructure, goods, services, and land that was provided by upkeep of said infrastructure. Also, your childhood debt is over $250,000. That doesn't count secondary costs, only those borne directly.

>>130814613
FUCK what the!
Of course it's theft. That is because leaving military in the hands of fragmented neighbourhoods will just become a "state but don't call it a state". Oh... then it will just "devolve" back into a nation as your ideology preaches anarchy, but the extension of it just shows that lawlessness and anarchy cannot survive in a civilization, at least one as non-white as the US.
And what is the ancap response to dying white population? Open borders for free trade because fuck arbitrary statist market manipulation, if you can't freely trade then it isn't capitalism.

>>130826265
Here is an interesting feature of the free market.
As a consumer in a free market, you only pay for things that effect you individually.

You want indoor plumbing? Pay for it.
You want schooling for your children? Pay for it.
You want protection by the police? Pay for it.

That's great you want a service you pay for it.

Who wants to pay for something when you can just play chicken and hope someone else will be forced into paying for it, and you can enjoy it for free? The free market cannot solve that problem, especially when you don't have any rules. How does the free market solve the military, waste management, etc...?

It's much cheaper just to dump your waste into the river. Oh but then it's polluted to the point the water isn't potable and pollutes other peoples water downstream. You can solve your garbage problem by just dumping it on someone else's property and telling them it's a free gift, modern art if you would. It's their problem to deal with now.

It's only going to end one way. A privately owned corp will have their own military/security team and will enforce their own rules for their own territory. They will be more organized and create a higher standard of living therefore using your "free market" to attract more people who will gladly pay the "membership subscription fee" to live there and enjoy their services.
Then when someone dumps their shit and starts polluting your land or river, you tell them haul that shit back or face the wrath of your military force and pay the "membership subscription free". There goes your freedom, and the free market just recreated taxation.

>>130821887
If you were stranded on an island with 10 people and there was no food, and someone proposed to draw lots to sacrifice one of your number to eat, and you agreed to do this implicitly by drawing a lot, would it be morally right for you to call it murder when they kill and eat you when you draw the short lot?

>>130827467
Only if you change your mind after the fact you find out it's you.
Since there are no laws what stops you from breaching contracts whenever you feel like it?

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>>130818069

This is correct, as time goes on and all the land is claimed / divided up things revert back to a statist society in everything but name. And your CEO isn't going to give you even an illusion of choice in the matter.
There is also no difference between Ancap and Ancom except in name at the start of each. In both these things it just relies on everyone agreeing to a list of opinions about how things should be arranged. 'Freeing the markets' is as big of a meme as 'Seize the means of production' and is backed up by similar memeology.

Also the NAP is the biggest meme of all.

>>130814613
So move out of the city and go live in your shack in the desert if you dont wanna pay taxes.

I dont see the problem here.

>>130827629
It's like the state enforces private property or something....

>>130827467
that implies that I consented to the lot drawing (e.g., a contract).

>>130827634
This

All systems require violence and justifies it one way or another. It is very petty to complain about violence when your system needs it too.

>>130826599
>Ancap maximizes your options and consent, so therefore it's the most moral.
I agree in principle that it maximises your options, but I just think that if you are willing to say that taxation is theft, you should also be willing to accept that work is slavery. Otherwise it just seems like you are arbitrary saying that taxes are more forced than working, when I don't really think they are seeing as everyone is pretty much forced to work (unless in weird circumstances where someone is a billionaire) in the same way that they are forced to pay taxes, The only difference is that there isn't someone behind you telling you that you are legally oblidged to work whereas there is with taxes, but this doesn't make that much difference seeing as if you don't work, the natural forces of being homeless and starvation will catch up on you. And thus you are essentially being forced anyway, just not by a human.

>>130827862
>Contract someone to build your house and pay them in full
>They start building and then remember there are no laws and they can just leave with your money

wtf I love ancap now.

>>130827862
Your continued living in your country is is implicit acceptance of a contract you inherited from your parents, who inherited it from theirs.

If you want to void the contract, you need to leave.

>>130827057
So the state has enslaved its populaton through conquest? Even though theres no declaration of such. Its just assumed.

Doesn't sound lawful.

I think if the entire population knew they were owned there would be an uprising and they would win

>>130824465

>Agriculture isn't that important to making a living.
It is the FOUNDATION of civilization. You cannot have anything resembling a society if no one is alive due to starving.

>Walk into onto a private train without paying
>Get's arrested by the state for evading the price

>Gets arrested at my front porch for evading taxes that fund things like trains.

Either way, the end result is coercion an violence. If you do not pay, you are kidnapped.

>>130828215
>Ancap territory
>Corporation uses free market to buy more and more land until they own a whole state
>They own the property, can ask anyone to leave for any reason.
>Charge people taxes to live on their land. If they don't pay you jail them or kick them out.
>wtf that's theft but it's okay because it's a privately owned corporation with no laws that uses the free market.

It's more kike a protection racket than actual theft.

The question you should ask yourself is who is running the rackets?

>>130828032
> if you are willing to say that taxation is theft, you should also be willing to accept that work is slavery
what?

>>130828314
>implying entitled brats know the first thing about what creates a successful civilization
Why can't they just eat cake? It's 2017 just buy it from the store RETARD.

>>130828215
>So the state has enslaved its populaton through conquest? Even though theres no declaration of such. Its just assumed.

I never said that.
Your reading comprehension is shit.

You asked how they own the LAND.
THEY OWN THE LAND.
YOU ARE USING THE LAND.
PAY YOUR RENT, DIE OR LEAVE.

You're breathing air that was made possible to be breathable by government regulation and infrastructure that ensure that the air quality doesn't end up like Liaoning Province in north-east China.

PAY FOR THE AIR YOU STOLE, DIE, OR LEAVE.

I wouldn't mind paying taxes if it were an option.

>>130814613
I realise taxation is theft

I just don't recognise how theft is inherently bad

>>130828848
It is an option. Pay taxes, go to jail, or leave. You always have a choice, anon.

>>130819403

This anon is the White Death of /pol/, shutting down AnCap "arguments" with cold, calculating logic.

I salute you, faggot.

>>130828395
>yfw your society is so free of rules and regulations nothing stops other people from creating their own rules and regulations
Checkmate, ancaps.

>>130828848
Get this

Taxation is needed because it funds things that people could not afford voluntarily for themselves as individuals. I know you don't like it being forced, but there basic needs that have to be met in order to have a civilized society. Third world nations spend so much of their government spending on education because they cannot rely on private education due to people being too poor. By using taxation to fund public schools, you have more educated farmers which means more food for people.

>>130828709
The reason ancaps say that taxatation is theft is because the person getting taxes doesn't consent to be taxed. It is the same with everyone who works but in a different sense, no-one genuinely wants to work, people have to because they need money. Our society is based around having money and if you don't have it you will fall to the bottom, so you are essentially still being forced to work, only it is not by legal threat of force. It is rather instead by the threat of the force of mother nature when you end up not being able to sustain your own existence in society. Thus, if the ancap is willing to say that taxation is theft for the reason that there is no consent, they should also say that work is slavery for the reason that there is no real consent to work.

>>130814613
> doesn't realize police apprehending a suspect is assault
What the FUCK?

>>130828848

>Everyone decides to pay as little as possible
>No one thinking about the wide scale impact
>Police service ends up ridiculously badly funded
>Mafias form like in the old days due to this gap
>Mafia decides to charge even more than taxes were
>But Fat Tony is a wealth creator so it's okay!

>>130828955
How about you keep voting with your money to justify having half your compensation stolen.

>>130828800
yes I know you said THE LAND but I live on THE LAND therefore I am ENSLAVED by someone who has never conquere THE LAND that IM ON. I dont have to fight against a country I don't recognise. They assume Im their property because I live on THE LAND they assume they own outright

>>130829311
>no-one genuinely wants to work
And they're forced to by whom?
Are you seriously trying to equate negative and positive liberties, you dumb fucking nigger?

>>130828955
Thats duress. Doing anything under duress is not an option. You have less claim to land that you wern't born on.

>>130828848
It is optional.
If you don't want to pay taxes of your nation, take some unclaimed land not owned by another nation or person and do whatever you want.

You cannot live in my home without paying rent.
Your parents paid rent, and assured me that you would pay rent when you inherited your citizenship in my home.

If you don't like it, leave. This is my house. I do not accept freeloaders.

Alternatively, you can just hold your breath until you die. I don't want you stealing the high quality air I worked so hard to keep clean in this industrial era.

I will even dispose of your corpse for no charge.
See how generous I am.

>>130829427
That can still happen in Ancap.
What stops me from starting a privately owned free market business that employs armed thugs to rob people at gunpoint of half of all their resources?
The free market decides, and I found a profitable business model that IS THEFT. What will you do to stop it? Will you be forced to pay someone else money to defend you, essentially being forced to pay for something?

Sounds like you either get ripped off or pay someone else. You are paying someone either way unless in your perfect little theoretical civilization you are also rambo and will teleport behind them and somehow overpower someone with military & firearm training who robs chumps like you for a living.

>Be a privatized court
>Always favor the rich guy because he pays more

But people will stop going there!
>Be poor, get letter to go to private court.
>I refuse to go
>They can't force me
>Rules can't be enforced.

>>130829797
So do you have a free market or not? You call it duress, I call it regulations and retractions on the market.
If you don't like it you can vacate my privately owned property or follow my rules.

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>>130815688
Good goy

>>130829311
>no-one genuinely wants to work

My nibba, man was made to work, he should work for loftier goals than global jewish hegemony that's all.

>>130829615
Where do you live that you believe nobody owns that particular slice of land? The United States is the property of the US Government. Every inch of it was bought and paid for with blood, or money.

>>130829818
>>130829826

These brainwashed americans clinging to their state and thinking they are independent.

You guys are the epitome of cucked and you are defending it all the way.

I'm amazed

>>130821469

Sorry, ancap bro, but you're wrong. That anon is discoursing perfectly and is objectively answering and countering everything you say. You should be thankful for his patience because he's very aware that your arguments lack basis or reasoning but he's still investing time in educating you.
By the way, calling the appropriate terms "buzzwords" only makes you seem even more stupid and does not help your point or your cause.

>>130829899
aha! but if you don't go a mob of voluntary bloodthirsty barbarians will rape and kill you, you did break the NAP after all!
>this is what ancaps see as a civilised society

>>130829826
This

>Get debit card stolen
>Can't arrest him because the criminal lives in a town called "Debit theft town" where debit card thievery is legal.

>>130829899
>I'm a free inhabitant and signed no contract, therefore I agree to none of the rules of this land.
>get shot or jailed by privately funded security company
>TYRANNY!! TYRANNY!! HELP I'M BEING OPPRESSED

Better hope you have money saved up. I don't think the free market cares very much about feeding prisoners.

>>130830019
Yeah - its not really conquest when youve got guns and theyve got bows and arrows.

I'll conquest any land with those odds

who cares, everything is momentary.

>>130823166
Take a deep breath.
Did you enjoy that?
I hope so.
Did your lungs burn at all?
Did you cough due to pollution and smog?
no?

You just consumed state resources. The state ensures that air pollution levels do not ruin the air quality, so you are stealing state resources.

Pay up.

>Gets identity stolen
>Can't arrest him because he lives in a town called "Identity theft town" where you can legally steal people's identity.

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>>130814613
But I do, Anon.

>>130830302
You're hundreds of years late for that.
It doesn't matter if you disagree with the fairness of the contest.

VAE
VICTIS

>>130830239
Yes - we signed no contract, so to what extent an the state force itself on others. I mean you are literally arguing for your own enslavement and that the state owns all your property.

You are actually arguing for socialism at this point

>>130830029
>clinging to their state and thinking they are independent.

no man is an island, you clueless child.

>>130814613
The reason sheep's don't see taxation as thefT is because they see the government as just part of nature. Telling them taxation is theft is like saying the trees are murderers, it just doesn't compute with their brains

taxation is needed to pay for a government, and private property requires a government to exist

you cannot have private property without a government monopoly on force

read thomas hobbes.

>>130829826
All the functions of a Government are performed by human beings.

Those same human beings can perform those same functions for civilization without being compensated by a government.

>>130830507
Its not conquest.

Its genocide and you've been brainwashed into being ok with that - as long as you suck up to the winners.

Sad!

>>130816696
kek

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>>130828848

You always have an option m8o.

>>130814613
There has never been nor will be a stable government without taxes whether or not it is theft is irrelevant. It is a rule of government as death is a rule of nature.

>>130818276
How did the government find out about your home improvements?
I feel you though bro I fucking hate this place so much I would go live in the USA if my girlfriend didnt want to stay here because of family.

>>130830761
>why were labor unions formed
>yfw it's more profitable to extort your workforce
>yfw in a free market if people attempt to unionize you just line them up and shoot them
>yfw if people won't work for you, take their children hostage and they will work for you for free

Dang man, the free market is awesome.

>BRO if you just take all the good things from civilizations with rules
>Then just remove all the rules
>Everything will be like the same but better

Hmmmm...................................

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>>130818477
Would you rather have a mafia to do that, or should I say family business that offers "protection services".
The truth about private property is that it will quickly change owners if one is unable to defend it.

or are you too naive to understand that conflict of interests exist or that organized crime wouldn't exists without a state?

>>130814613
It is closer to extortion

The state does not function on tax revenues since it spends alot more that it collects.

It just prints the currency devaluing it, which is unlawful, but I live on its land sooooo i guess I'll just have to go along with whatever it says, right? I mean, I don't want to aggress against the brainwashed servants

>>130814613
t.anarchist

Your options suck, I'm gonna make a better option and only sell it to the highest bidder.

>>130814613
When we bailed out the banks.

When we bailed out the Big 3.

When we left an accord that used tax dollars to pay for solar panels for Nigerian Warlords.

Why do we let our government get away with this?

>>130831275
Like private courts?

>>130825677
Property rights existed before the United states

>>130831131
Enjoy your police state.

>>130831357
Private criminals getting privately sentenced to private time in private jail by private courts for breaking private rules.

>>130814613
Depends entirely upon your notions of ownership and civic responsibility.
You could very easily make the case that the state is simply collecting payment for services rendered.

>>130829651
>And they're forced to by whom?
The circumstances of their scenario (that if they don't work the'll get poor, suffer and die) force them to work.

>Are you seriously trying to equate negative and positive liberties

I don't think that the positive/negative is a relevant distinction in this context. It does not matter philosophically to consent as to whether someone is negatively forced or positively forced, seeing as the terms of consent we are discussing are the ones which the ancap set out. And the ancap starts with the premise of widening the terms of consent, as they believe that even though people write out their tax forms, they don't actually consent for they could not want to write out their tax forms. All I did was expand this to the idea of working in order to highlight the inconsistency (that the ancap will make special exceptions for taxation but not for working). For instance, someone can work but not want to work due to actually wanting to live a work free happy life.

>>130831312
Because if you would have let them fail, our economy would crash leaving millions without work. The bailouts were to save capitalism. Think about it 2008 had occupy walstreet and have many protesting. What would have happened if you let all the crony capitalists fail? The crash would be worse than 2008. People would organize and start a revolution.

>>130831516
But there isn't a monopoly of force. How would you enforce it?

>>130831554
you cant print capital

>>130826599

>If you want to be really anal about it, you still have consent because you can bite your tongue and kill yourself. Therefore, you have avoided paying taxes.

FTFY

>>130830007
Thats not an actual rebuttle to the criticism of ancapitalism I laid out. The working idea is just a hypothetical example showing the inconsistency within ancap theory.

>>130831148

Retarded meme is retarded.

Feudalism was a creation of government. Property rights would be strengthened under anarchy, not weakened by the feudal system that we still fucking use today.

>>130831620
You ignored my point. If all of what we have is cronyism, letting all the crony businesses fail would cause a crash bigger than 2008. You really think people will demanding capitalism after than, or will they be supporting another system like in occupy walstreet?

>>130815688
>Yeah bro, even though I paid 250k for this house, it's still the state's house. It's not mine at all. Nope. Even though I paid full price for it, it's still the state's. Can't argue with that.
Really?
>muh mortgage
If you don't have one, then the state (bank) doesn't own it. It's your private property. Did you drop out during 5th grade?

>>130831602
You don't. I think the divide between public and private should be a personal choice. Not a governmental decision.

>>130814613
AnCap must be the most retarded idea ever formulated.

>>130831549
So not by anyone?
>I don't think that the positive/negative is a relevant distinction in this context
You think wrong.

You can amend a constitution. You can topple a government. You can't barter with mother fucking nature.

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>tfw dual citizen with USA
>still supposed to report all foreign income to IRS as obligation of US citizenship
>tfw ive never reported one nickel I've made in Canada to IRS

Ok this is a slight thread. Nobody is this fucking retarded and if you make a good argument they just ignore it or reply back with a nonsensical statement that doesn't address the argument at all.

You are either debating with retards, shils, or trolls. Regardless of which it's not a discussion worth pursuing.

>>130831850
>Does a crime
>Goes in the next town where that crime is legal
>Police can't get me because it would violate the rights of the next town.

>>130832032
That'd be good for you now wouldn't it?

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You can't have a functioning government or country without taxation in this day and age. Unless people are willing to give up on the very principle of national borders taxation will never go away.

>>130832156
If the town is called "Rape town" then yes.

>>130831817
>You really think people will demanding capitalism after than
yyyyyyyyyyyyyyes? that wouuld be great. There would be a period of difficulty, but ultimately failed institutions have to fail and can't be propped up forever.

Propping them up with bailout and such devalues the currency and now its impossible to buy a house or raise a family anyway. We are currently living in an economic limbo purgatory

>>130832269
I'll be sure to exclude you from my "Rape free village".

>>130832357
>Implying you would want to go to a town that asks if you are a rapist before entering.

Well what about your town?!
>I'll just say it is a typo.

You see, your whole ideology has no basis on reality. It's purely ideological. At least ancoms can give more real world examples.

>>130832576
Your logic:
This tree has one green apple and the rest are red.

Must be a green apple tree.

Blah blah blah, separation of church and state.
Blah blah blah, remove money from politics.

>>130832733
It seems like everywhere capitalism has tried has failed.

>>130831947
>You think wrong.

Let me rephrase what I said.

It isn't a relevant distinction. If the ancap has logically opened up the doors of consent interpretation, it is logically inconsistent for them to be withdrawn upon it being applied to something else. You would need another philosophical justification for not applying it equally.

>You can amend a constitution. You can topple a government. You can't barter with mother fucking nature.
This does not amount to that adequate philosophical justification. It doesn't matter whether you can change nature or not, the person in the work scenario who is forced to work to feed himself is still being forced to work, even if we cannot control the forced at play forcing him to work. The fact of the matter as to whether we can control the forces or how much we should care about the forces doesn't matter from a purely philosophical standpoint. The only thing relevant is whether or not the person has consented to the forces or not, and it is quite clear that upon applying the ancapitalist's interpretation of consent to the work scenario, they cannot legitimately say that the person hasn't been forced if they are to also maintain that others have been forced to pay taxes.

>i want to live here
>Well you can, its just that i own this place so you have to pay me if you want to live here
>Ree, stop stealing my money
>I'm not, you can go somewhere else
>Reee stop oppressing me

>>130832872
States cant own property. States aren't people.

>>130832796
In order for capitalism it would have to have a goal other than increased consumption.

Based on that goal, I'd say capitalism has been pretty fucking successful.

Here's whats really going to poodle your noodle? What will be the driving force to end all wars and feed all starving?

Governments or economies?

>>130833040
You do realize that the successes of capitalism in the first world rely on sweatshops in the third right?

>>130832958
somebody owns those states.

>>130830417

>Actually he now lives in your house, as he stole your identity, so he can't be arrested for that either. You however, are an undocumented John Doe. You have 24h to produce a valid certificate or off to the deportation center with you.

>>130833149
kek

>>130833135
By all means who allowed that to happen!?

>Greed is human nature
>Capitalists using the state to benefit personally is bad somehow.

>>130833318

>>130832827
Are you being killed when you die of old age? No, you die. You're not being forced by anyone or anything.
>whether we can control the forces or how much we should care about the forces doesn't matter from a purely philosophical standpoint
Yes. You can't indict nature. It's not an agent. A government is. A government can be unethical.

You can rephrase it however many times you want, it's not an argument and stems entirely from conflating negative and positive liberties.

>Capitalism is human nature
>We never had capitalism

>>130833406
Yeah but the free market would come up with a solution.
Checkmate.

>>130833387
Sounds like there should have been some kind of system in place ran by the people and for the people to prevent that kind of crime against humanity.

idk about you, but I'm going to consider every option, first and foremost, before making an informed decision.

>>130830356
In the long term, we're all dead

So turn all those mothafuckin' printers on, bitch!

>>130833618
I have magic too. I have a wand that can end all problems but sadly, I need everyone in the whole world to believe in it in order for it to work. Every time I wave the wand, no magic comes out. That wasn't the wands real magic. Believe me! You cannot disprove my argument that my wand does not have magic.

>>130833387
that's communism though which is also theft.

idk about you, but i'm not one for supporting communism.

>>130834037
Sounds like a marketing pitch for CommieCoin™.

You don't spend the crypto. The cyrpto spends you.

>>130834037
Just because you can't comprehend someone solving problems you don't understand doesn't make them not exist.

It just makes them smarter than you. Checkmate'd.

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>>130833618

>The magic hand of the market!!!

>>130833854

Yeah... it's almost as if... humans need some kind of system that will ensure they are protected as a whole, and that this system should be run by humans as well. If we consider no human more valuable than the previous, then surely this...ruling system would need some kind of law of succession because humans aren't immortal.
Surely we need a word that describes this state of affairs.

Oh-my-god AnCap anon! You may have stumbled upon something here!

>>130833854
You aren't rational. Your ideas are at the level of magic. You can't prove or disprove your ideology. It technically can never be proven wrong because you give your ideology such a vague and subjective definition that it's impossible to prove. You are not smart, you just have a position that literally can never be wrong because everything proves it to be true.

>>130834275
>I have no imagination
>therefore you're idea will never work

Nice strawman. Try actually using your brain before posting.

>>130834375
That post is so wrong it doesn't even deserve a rebuttal. Just know, it's 100% wrong.

You just don't understand AnCap. If you did you would be supportive of it. Unfortunately you are just voting against your own interests because you don't know any better.

>>130833618
>>130834219

Saying that someone else better come up with an argument because you can't is the same as conceding to the last party to make an argument. Its also weird to exclaim "Checkmate" after losing a debate.

>>130834317
Here's the secret:
> A government ran like a business is no longer a government.
> Any business can be ran like a government.

The word government is synonymous to the word organization. Just as empty and just as meaningless.

>>130834317
>pretend to be really smart and have a wellcrafted argument
>It's already been disprove countless times in this thread

You don't know when to give up, do you? You already lost try another augment.

>>130834556
Sweetie, the burden is on you to prove your own point which you have failed to do.

Are you getting upset because you came to the realization you are arguing emotions instead of logic?

>>130834409

Your "solution" becomes a state in everything except name which Ancaps are incapable of admitting. And you didn't use your imagination either.

>>130827634
>>130827893
^