Theists are dumb

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>>130700177

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>>130700560

>>130700634
Why would any of the universe have to be "designed"? That's dumb. Where did god come from, then? Where does his power to "design" and create come from?

None of that makes any fucking sense. Just because we don't fully understand why the universe is the way it is does not mean that some sort of intelligence had anything to do with it.

>>130700177
get behind me Satan. Yashua is true, he is the way, the truth & the life. If your right and you die then not much happens...If your wrong your fucked...there is no do overs at that point.....plus Christianity has been of great benefit to mankind despite what shills say....The west has benefitted from the Golden rule if nothing else....

You have no new arguments...much more EDUCATED men than you have tried and failed to dismiss Yahweh out of hand.......

Of course Scripture doesn't make sense to you. You have chosen to believe a lie. You are spiritually blinded. We are here to serve, not to be served. Think hard now, you still have a chance....He is bigger than all of us....

>>130700967
because order clearly exists and order is the trademark of design

>>130701853
HA! Are you fucking serious? If that's your reason for believing, you're not very serious in your belief, now are you? You only believe because you're afraid of hell. That's not true belief. I guarantee you haven't even read the bible. There's so many contradictions in it it's not even funny, not to mention it's obvioiusly meant to be a means to control the masses.

God is a selfish being if he does exist. Not worthy of my worship. If you only believe because you're afraid of going to hell if you don't, then you don't really believe because you love god (how could anyone love a piece of shit like that anyway?), you believe out of fear. An all loving, omnipotent being wouldn't have people fear it, nor would it send anyone to hell for doing what it designed them to do. It would UNDERSTAND that we NEED PROOF.

The burden of proving that God exists is on the believers. I could say there's a toilet orbiting the earth right now, and you'd say "prove it", and then I'd say "You can't prove there isn't". That's how stupid theists sound.

The bible has zero basis in fact. There is nothing the bible has said that is observable and provable.

>>130702998
There is order in chaos as well. That is a fallacy. Design? How would something "design" a whole universe? Are you theists really so arrogant that you would believe that in this ENTIRE universe, we are the center of it?

>>130700177
>My girlfriend died Christmas 2015.

/r/thathappened

>>130700177
I especially love to hear them explain the process of free will ( they can't). Only the "god gives us free will" but no defense against the obvious causal nature of the universe

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>>130704850

>>130700177
I can't understand why they can't parse that picture.
>actually I can; they don't even try to parse it, they emotionally block it

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>>130700177
Literally everything you posted is the stuff of grade-school debate.

If this isn't bait you need to sit down and have a long hard think about your life.

[spoiler]God loves you and there's nothing you can do about it[/spoiler]

>>130700177
No one literally believes in god, OP. Most people just pretend to believe because 'god' embodies the ideals we want society to act out. It creates a standard that prevents ignorant people with power from deviating these ideals so much that we end up destroying our society.

>>130700177
When you live with incredibly improbable events taking place every single day you know all other opinions are cucked .

>>130700177
i can disprove this

>evil exists?
>no

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>>130706224
>God loves you
He supposedly wrestled with Jacob. Hilarious!

>>130700177
What is theodicy? God, atheists are ignorant.

What the fuck is this 2012? Get out of your basement, clean off your Cheetos, and get with the god damn times. There's more important shit going on then muh atheism and muh fairy tales

"God" is the only "all loving, all forgiving" being that would torture you for eternity simply for being unconvinced of his existence.

"God" is a being that has zero understanding of how the human mind works, if he does exist. (He doesn't).

An all knowing, all powerful, benevolent god could and would destroy evil once and for all. It wouldn't wait over 2000 years for the "perfect time of prophecy" to do it. That's just pointless.

Again, religion doesn't make any fucking sense. You sinned, so you have to kill an animal to be forgiven.

You sinned, so I'm going to send my son to have himself killed to forgive you all.

In WHAT FUCKING REALITY does any of that make any fucking sense?

How do people believe in this bullshit?

>>130700177
>My girlfriend
And thats how you know the story is fake.

>>130708192
/theodicy/ is the justice of God you stupid lobster

>>130700177
Why should God be loving?

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>>130700177

>>130706686
If you want a tl;dr OP, basically this. Religion is practically dead in the west, when it was the last bit of plank wood we were clinging on to in an ocean of chaos. idiots like you want to chop up the last of the planks, so we're "free", to swim in any direction.

>>130708544
>tfw no no qt fedora tipping gf

>>130700177
What a load of horse shit. Are you really going to simultaneously accept that unknowns exist in the world while claiming that a creator can't be one of them? Atheism is just as much a dogmatic ideology as any of them meant to enforce mind control. Think for yourself, brain dead faggot.

>>130700177
God is an abstraction you dumb FUCK.

Nobody with an ounce of intelligence believes that there is a big daddy in the sky, but they understand that as humans there will always be something above us and that just by virtue of existing.

God is a reminder for everyone that there are things above you you have to submit yourself to, morality being a tiny subtract of that.

>>130708592
Really, well guess what ratnik, religion ain't dead in ORTHODOXY either west or east .

And that's Christian Orthodoxy , be it Russian, Greek, Ukrainian or Romanian, kikes BTFO

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>>130700177
>Why do people still believe in God, /pol/?

Various reasons. I personally believe it because of Divine Conservation. Why are you specifying one theistic view?

As for the rest of your post, you are speaking about a very simplistic notion of God not accepted by any classical theologian and hardly accepted by Evangelical Protestants themselves. And Evangelicals are foolish new age people so why focus on them?
>Honestly, fuck god. If he does exist, he'll have to beg for MY forgiveness, anyway

OP please. If you're uneducated of the topic, just say so and ask the questions. These judgements are just silly.


>picture


God is omnipotent. The issue comes from the claim that he is malevolent. If evil can be used to form a more meaningful good/more good/whatever or come by logical necessity of some good then you cannot make the claim that God is malevolent letting evil occur. However, evil does not "exist", it is simply a privation of the good.

A good example of the benefit of evil in theology is the doctrine of Free Will. Something created with the intent of experiencing love and sharing in God's love requires the ability to voluntarily choose to love, else the love is mechanical and not actually love.

This can be applied to things naturally in the world as well, such as the finite and distinct nature of the universe enables things to run up against one another and cause clashes which cause a lot of things. We could say this derives from the same sort of purpose but I won't assume to be a theologian.

Part 1/2

>>130709864
Part 2/2
More to the point, for Catholics, what suffering comes is a method towards growth towards virtue in various means. It could allow an important good, it could break your heart so that it be more open, it could be a method of transformation, or it even could be repercussions of sins playing out to persuade you away from it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redemptive_suffering

We must try to relieve suffering but we do not relieve it by attempting to escape it but relieve it by overcoming it. And in that we are united with the suffering of our God, who has suffered with us.


Ultimately, like most Greek theistic problems, they are made towards the Hellenistic conception of gods and so it really isn't applicable to God unless you perceive Him as that sky wizard. This is called a Theistic Personalist view. The apostolic denominations (catholic, Orthodox, oriental) support the Classical Theist view. 4chan Christianity is majority apostolic denominations.

God doesnt imply something being all powerful, knowing or loving. Most of the time that isnt the case in religion

sage

>>130708592

If that is the truth, so be it. Humanity doesn't deserve to exist as selfishly as it does if we can't rally around a more useful cause than the fear of punishment from our own imaginations.

>>130709916
>>130709864
You're still hear trying to play apologetics to 4chan of all people after all these years? That's kind of sad.

What are you getting out of it? I don't understand.

>>130700177
>Somehow, a bearded invisible man in the sky makes more sense than science.

I know, I mean, it's like these people just believe in phenomena that they've never personally witnessed simply because some guys they've never met wrote about witnessing them in books

>>130708240
>There's more important shit going on then muh atheism and muh fairy tales
You mean like Trump telling Tillerson that conservatives need to be great friends with Putin?

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>>130710203
I attempt to help.

>that's sad

Is there an issue with helping people understand things?

>>130700177
>>130705752
>Could God have created a universe with free will but without evil

Free will is the ability to choose between good and evil, so that's like asking if God could create air without oxygen. You can't trap God in pedantry and semantics

>>130700177
that chart gets destroyed by a single word
>free will

If we do have free will, then God knows what the outcome is in the infinite possibilities, but we are actually free to choose one.

Imagine it as infinite timelines, we can pick what forks we take in what direction across the timelines, but he does not interfere because he wants us to be free.

>>130700177
i think the people who (like yourself, OP) cling to this idea of an inherently omnipotent god that can literally control the universe on a whim and do anything, and is this totally idealized perfection of life, are the ones that are really stupid.

like where do you get off believing that? where do you get off holding that up as the standard of whether or not there is a "higher power" in the universe?

it's a strawman, ultimately. sure, it may be written in the bible but i don't believe 90%-95% of christians take the bible literally.

i believe in a higher power in our universe. i think it played some role in creating us (though not in 7 days, and not totally responsible). i don't believe it's all powerful. i don't believe it's "all good" or "all loving" either.

i think the christian bible is a treasure trove of wisdom and communication with this higher power. i think, like any book, it's right about some things and wrong about some things. i think the ultimate "gist" of the thing is likely pretty accurate.

and i totally "get" agnostics too. the people i don't "get" are people like you. atheists.

i see you got the nazi flag up. hitler was a left-wing, atheist, gun-hating, welfare-state-loving, free-healthcare-loving, big government socialist. he was also a vegetarian hipster who wanted to go to art school. he was, in every way, a modern SJW.

i say this because i think you should try to understand the connection between the disconnect from the values taught in the christian bible and SJWism. without those values, and without the embrace of those ideas, our societies inherently turn to shit and oppression and authoritarianism. (hitler was literally right about the joos but wrong about EVERYTHING else).

i think it's hard to recognize that fact and not be awed by the inherent wisdom of the christian doctrine, which has directly led to the "free" and "enlightened" european western world that we all know and love today.

>>130700177
>>130711494
im sayin', stop bein' an SJW nazi and embrace your true roots OP, as a western christian man, who understands the wisdom and value of the holy christian bible, EVEN IF YOU DONT BELIEVE IN EVERY SINGLE WORD IT SAYS!

>>130711097
exactly, thats the error of all jew when trying to fathom Cheristianity they think it's submission like islam or a rulebook like kikery .
No , it's free will.
>and totally Western ;)

>>130710536
What help? You found some ressentiful atheist and spewed out some dogma. I don't think he would consider himself "helped". You might since you know there is a very small chance he might be slightly less hostile to your religion. That's really what it is about, pushing your religion.

You've been doing this shit for years. What does pushing it on the rotten people of this site accomplish? 4chan's Christianity is the most ugly form of the religion I've seen. They only like it because it fuels their hatred of Jews, homosexuals, and because a few hundred years ago the crusades happened. Maybe it also has to do with not wanting to be associated with fedora memes.

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>>130711494
>cling to this idea of an inherently omnipotent god that can literally control the universe
Can't imagine where anyone would get such an idea from

>>130712304
wait untill you take enough lsd to meet him and then we can talk again

>>130712304
honestly it's like you must not have even read the comment you're responding to :(

I'm a proud Christian and can't wait to start a family with a man who's also just as proud to be a Christian. I've lost close family members, life is not easy, but that doesn't mean God isn't real. In fact, such hardships brought me closer to God.

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>>130711971
>What help? You found some ressentiful atheist and spewed out some dogma.

I contended the point rationally. Typically bad ideas and incorrect premises simply need be called out.

>pushing your religion

Everyone pushes their worldview in some degreewhen in discussion of ideology. However my attempt is to clear up issues they have than "push" anything, whatever that means.


>You've been doing this shit for years. What does pushing it on the rotten people of this site accomplish?

That's a bigger topic I'm sure I can't fully address on the phone. You do it injustice to identify it as all or even mostly Deus Vult poster stereotypes. Real evangelization has occurred which has influenced people here, other boards, and other websites.

>>130700177
You can't explain God in a few memes. Your post is nothing new, it's just the typical ignorant worldview of someone that is high on lies.

You have no clue what I'm talking about and it all seems very stupid to you, and that's understandable. It won't change in this thread.

Evolution, space, heliocentric model, theory of gravity, etc are all deceptions to take you away from common sense you're born with.

You haven't cleared up way too many things in your head for God to make any sense to you.

Maybe some day, maybe not.

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>>130700177

>>130700177
>prevent evil
yes

>know about the evil
yes

>prevent evil
no

>God isn't all loving
no shit retard the Bible doesn't say he is

>>130714200
Oops the first and third are the same. You know what I meant

also verses on God's hate

Leviticus 20:23 - "And ye shall not walk in the manners of the nation, which I cast out before you: for they committed all these things, and therefore I abhorred them."
Leviticus 26:30 - "And I will destroy your high places, and cut down your images, and cast your carcases upon the carcases of your idols, and my soul shall abhor you."
Deuteronomy 32:19 - "And when the LORD saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters."
Psalm 5:5 - "The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity."
Psalm 5:6 - "Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the LORD will abhor the bloody and deceitful man."
Psalm 10:3 - "For the wicked boasteth of his heart's desire, and blesseth the covetous, whom the LORD abhorreth."
Psalm 11:5 - "The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth."
Psalm 53:5 - "There were they in great fear, where no fear was: for God hath scattered the bones of him that encampeth against thee: thou hast put them to shame, because God hath despised them."
Psalm 73:20 - "As a dream when one awaketh; so, O Lord, when thou awakest, thou shalt despise their image."
Psalm 78:59 - "When God heard this, he was wroth, and greatly abhorred Israel:"
Psalm 106:40 - "Therefore was the wrath of the LORD kindled against his people, insomuch that he abhorred his own inheritance."

>>130714407
Proverbs 6:16-19 - "These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren."
Proverbs 22:14 - "The mouth of strange women is a deep pit: he that is abhorred of the LORD shall fall therein."
Lamentations 2:6 - "And he hath violently taken away his tabernacle, as if it were of a garden: he hath destroyed his places of the assembly: the LORD hath caused the solemn feasts and sabbaths to be forgotten in Zion, and hath despised in the indignation of his anger the king and the priest."
Hosea 9:15 - "All their wickedness is in Gilgal: for there I hated them: for the wickedness of their doings I will drive them out of mine house, I will love them no more: all their princes are revolters."
Zechariah 11:8 - "Three shepherds also I cut off in one month; and my soul lothed them, and their soul also abhorred me."
Malachi 1:3 - "And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness."
Romans 9:13 - "As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated."

>>130714056
Pretty good. Would begin a discussion on the nature of good and evil.
Saved.

>>130700177
I just feel god resonates with me when I look for him in the nature or even if I am not in various inspirational situacions. It's a warm and fullfilling feeling, as if The whole world and all the peaples around me were sharing love with me. I really don't need rational arguments, I have them, but they're quite useless. True faith is just faith.

>god will have to ask MY forgiveness
Good luck with that, sinner

>>130712912

Immediately retreating into obscurity.

I guess if you think you are in the best company with deus volters (and you do seeing as how you elect to spend time with them rather than any other website) that really is where your head is.

You sure there isn't something else you could do besides argue about the problem of evil for the 10,000th time with some rage-alcoholic? That's really your place in this life?

>>130700177
>still
>only been alive 12 years you must be 18 or older to post here kiddo

>>130700177

Evil makes us stronger faggot. Stop crying about "muh evil and suffering"

If it weren't for the snake/satan we would never be conscious about our fragileness. Life isn't the garden of eden, it isn't heaven.

New age atheism is dying, nihilism gets you nowhere.

I bet you hate commies. Go read russian literature like dostoyevski or tolstoy, let them tell you about when they took away their "sky fairy"

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The flat earth truth is the single most effective method of finding God.

You can also choose ignorance and laugh it off.

>>130700177
I will explain to you why people not only still believe in god but why many need a belief system to function. First off human beings are social creatures. So much so that some of us talk to ourselves to focus thoughts rather than dealing with feeling alone. It's psychologically in grained in us to seek out communities and socialization. We're more likely as a species to attach blame to something and to ask who's responsible than what is responsible. We find that all cultures anthopomorphize things that can not readily be explained because having that makes us feel comfortable and it helps us to feel more emotionally stable to have answers and for those answers to be anthropomorphized. Even after spending a great deal of time in atheist communities I would find that every atheist had something that replaced their belief in god. A lot of them were obsessed with social justice nonsense or became conspiracy nuts. What those things have in common is that both of them are built around the belief in a higher power which is malevolent and must be stopped. It's always the government, corporations, the white cis hetero-patriarchy, etc. Human beings are wired to behave this way and if you don't have religion you degenerate into bullshit, and essentially find a new god to replace the old one. Simply put, god whether real or imaginary is the human mind anthropomorphizing things outside of our control as a psychological defense mechanism and even if you get to the point where you rationalize that there is no god you end up creating a new one to fill the spot of the old one.

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>>130704264
You do know order and chaos are antonyms? And the rest of your argument is a red herring and a strawman, some of the most basic fallacies. Come back when you understand the scientific method.

>>130710149
Faith isn't about fear unless you're a child. It's about providing a sense of transcendent purpose, and an objective morality on what is wrong and right. Moral subjectivism is a cancer that is choking out our culture and our morale that only breeds nihilism and hedonism.

>>130709864
filtered

>>130700177
You call theists arrogant assholes, but you expect God, or anyone for that matter, to apologize to you?

>>130706224
Unable to refute a single point OP made. Not one. Solution? Name calling.

You poor guy. Your god does not exist. You have been scammed.

>>130717960
Your vast universe doesn't exist, it's you that's been scammed.

>>130700177
>My girlfriend died Christmas 2015. He could have saved her if he was real.
Hahahaha. Ok snowflake, see who is the narcissistic childish here? You are not the first one to pointing out the Evil's Problem neither the first one to feel injustice on the dead of a beloved. There you have the debate on God, its concept and its atribute and also the believe subject that are differenciated. I can extend of why people have faith or so but it seems like a waste of time. How about going back when your tantrum goes low?

>>130708240
You should give everyone on the planet a list of the most important things to discuss. Then we will all study it, and only discuss the things on your list.

>>130700177
Almost everything you posted is very similar to the same arguments I used to use against God. If you just realize that you don't know everything and be genuinely willing to take in information, I highly recommend reading the book "The Case for a Creator" and then read the bible starting from the beginning. It will change your life?

>>130700177
I'm sorry about your girlfriend, that's a very difficult loss to deal with.

As callous as it sounds though, God does not exist to alleviate our suffering. Suffering is what characterizes the mortal world. Many of God's greatest prophets suffered a great deal.

You don't worship God to do right in your life. You worship to humble yourself before the ideal man of virtue you should strive to be. That's the case no matter what position in life you're at

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>>130700177

>>130700177
For what it's worth, I'm sorry for your loss.

>>130700177
Your problem is that you are approaching this question philosophically. I use to be an atheist. After spending years of my life obsessed with the occult and looking into the events surrounding christ, I am now a sort of esotericist christian. Atheism is rational, but I do not believe the universe we inhabit is.

>>130700177
So your claim is over 90% of humans who have ever existed are dumb?
Hmm.
Just not buying it.

>>130700177
I hate my father. I'm getting a tattoo

>>130704264
Uh what is your argument sir? That Yashua is false? LOL good luck with your fallacies...Thing is dude, you can rant all you want...your tears are delicious. God will not be mocked. Explain Israel, if your so smart. They are divinely protected. The jews? he made a covenant with them. They are what they are for a reason, why do you think anti-semitism is so prevalent? Rave away man, let your hate and rage run free.

You want a sign? LOL: A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed. Matthew 16:4

Have you even looked at Proverbs? Ecclesiastes? You say there is no fact?

There is no burden on me Sir. I can only tell you the truth. If you disdain it, I can do no more.

>>130704264
Just out of curiosity, what makes you believe the Bible is simply a tool to control the masses?

>hundreds of religions
>no see MY god is the one true god because a lot of people also believe in him heh checkmate fags

>anthropologists have literally mountains of fossils, dig sites, artifacts, etc. dating +50,000 years BUT see this book says we're 6,000 years old heh

>ice cores, geological info from +200,000 years-millions of years BUt see it's all the devil's trickery heh

>literally observing evolution as plants and animals, macro life, evolve ways to get around herbicides/pesticides in a manner of years and develop physical changes

>heh nice THEORy of evolution HEH

Believe in what you want but holy hell modern organized religion can go fuck itself

>>130719158
>this book says we're 6,000 years old heh
Chapter and verse please.

>>130719158
>modern organized religion
I agree, scientism is horrible.

>>130708248
>"God" is the only "all loving, all forgiving" being that would torture you for eternity simply for being unconvinced of his existence.
If you took that away there would be no free will. Would you rather not have free will? God doesn't seek to torture us. Hell is an existence without God.

>"God" is a being that has zero understanding of how the human mind works, if he does exist. (He doesn't).
He made you. On what grounds can you claim he doesn't understand how the human mind works? He exists beyond time. He knows what you'll think before you do.

>An all knowing, all powerful, benevolent god could and would destroy evil once and for all. It wouldn't wait over 2000 years for the "perfect time of prophecy" to do it. That's just pointless.
God wishes to save as many people as possible. He waits for the perfect time for as many people to be saved as possible. In revelations there's a point where God doesn't directly involve himself until the last possible moment so that as many souls can be saved.

>Again, religion doesn't make any fucking sense. You sinned, so you have to kill an animal to be forgiven.
>You sinned, so I'm going to send my son to have himself killed to forgive you all.
>In WHAT FUCKING REALITY does any of that make any fucking sense?
>How do people believe in this bullshit?
The sacrifice is a metaphor for how sin brings death. With the sacrifice the animal dies instead of you. Jesus Christ is so wonderful because He is the ultimate perfect sacrifice. He is the substitute for our death in sin.

It seems archaic and difficult to understand compared to our modern society and ideologies, but if you really seek the truth God will show it to you.

>>130700177
God ceates the light AND the darkness. The darkness is necessary to have what we call life. It's friction that often manifests as suffering and destruction. Like electricity, it's the motor that keeps everything moving forward.

t. Kali worship

>>130708248
God is a father. Father's don't hold their children's hands their whole lives. Yet they still love them. Your a priori concept of an "all-knowing, all-powerful, benevolent" God is fundamentally flawed because it isn't even the way most Christians perceive him

>>130708248
Evil=degeneracy
degeneracy=free will(bad decisions)
free will=an agreement between god and man that allows us to have agency. Evil is a consequence of freewill.

>>130719100
Right. Because somehow this shitty little patch of desert is where all the magic happened. Then he disappeared for millennia and expects us to believe he ever existed.

You're retarded. And quit quoting the bible, it's the very thing being contested and therefore cannot be used as proof.

>>130717434
But, order and chaos go hand in hand. Fractals, for example. They look chaotic, right? But they have order from the smallest to the biggest parts. Fractals are all over the universe.

I'm not saying there isn't some higher order of things that we just don't understand yet. But I am saying there is no anthropomorphic all powerful being that judges us and sends us to heaven or hell. The higher power may be a consciousness of some sort, but does not directly interfere with the world, only influence it. This is why prayer works. It helps influence the outcome of things, but does not directly cause the outcome. This universal consciousness, some call it God, does not require worship. Buddhism is the closest thing to what I believe, but I'm not buddhist. Nor am I atheist or new age. But I do think Christians and anyone who worships a god and thinks we are capable of "sinning" and being sent to hell for it are sheep who are just afraid of hell (which doesn't exist beyond death, it is however a state of mind).

The entire universe looks like cells in a giant brain, which is MUCH more likely than the Judeo-Christian origin story. You all are going to say I'm changing up. This is what I believe more so than atheism. But I really don't know. What I DO know though is that all major religions are based on falsehoods and designed to control the masses. Which they do so effectively through fear. Fear of hell, fear of falling out of God's favor, etc. I prefer being able to do what I want without fear.

>>130719852
no , darkness is just the absence of light

>>130719616

>implying "science" or "a-thetism" can be a religion in any way

>this buttmad

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>>130700177
your petty human mind can't comprehend All There Is. you're a product of a materialist hedonistic society. concepts such as "good" and "bad" are obsolete when you transcend the intellectual mind. the death of your gf is not a bad thing, it just is. death is not what you think it is anyway, you're just conditioned to think that it is a bad thing and it should be avoided at all costs. even the mighty stars explode and die a violent death, what makes your gf so special that she should live forever? don't you see that the death of a star gives birth to new celestial objects? do trees cry when they lose their leaves every autumn and regain them every spring?

you're right about major religions being bs though. also watch the movie "fountain" you fagget. it might help with your bitterness

>>130720082
>which is MUCH more likely than the Judeo-Christian origin story.
If you mean creation stories in the Bible: which one?

>>130700560
>Died trying to make alchemy work

>>130720379
>still accomplished more than anyone here ever will

>>130720156
haha a satanic roach

Here I was, thinking /pol/ had some sort of sense. But there's more retarded theists here than I was led to believe. So many bluepilled morons that follow major religions instead of seeking the truth between the lines.

Guys. The bible is false. It should be obvious by now.

>>130720132
...and light is just the absence of darkness.

>>130720499
I've had sex more than zero times though.

And yes you're right. And more than anyone probably will in history ever again.

>>130720588
darkness is dispersed by light your dumbass
krauts > ouch

>>130719158
why do you believe that the scriptures are meant to be interpreted literally? that's obviously not what the authors intended. i see both theists and non-theists who think "it must be literally 100% true or it's all fake" which makes no sense

>>130720548
Right, because you know everything so we should listen to you. Oh wait...

>>130720647
>I've had sex more than zero times though.
So has the ugliest girl in every public high school.
That is not an actual accomplishment.

>>130720144
It is, you BELIEVE it, without a single proof. In fact, you BELIEVE it despite strong proof against it.

Evolution and heliocentric model are not science. You calling it science doesn't make it real.

Warning to all honest Christians, mocking flat earth truth is mocking God's creation.

>>130720082
k bro nice take your 15 year old realization and actually realize that you dont know. youre not right, im not right, who cares, live your life in a way that is good to you and let everyone else do the same cunt
that fear is your own insecurity that what your doing is wrong, and in the end your the one who establishes your own morals. so grow up and think for yourself a little not try to get validation from a "edgy anime board"

>>130700177
Some people are so afraid of not knowing weather there is an afterlife they will latch on to anything.

>>130720548
There isn't a single verse in the Bible that isn't literally true.

>>130720752
It doesn't make sense to you because you're ignorant.

>>130719576
Genesis 5, to start. The Old Testament is very clear on ages and generations, and you can track it from Creation to Malachi pretty easily. We're a bit lost between Old and New Testament, but luckily historians take over from there. Join the two and you get around 6,000 years.

>>130721070

>literally non-heliocentric and flat earther

a mild annoyance if you're a troll, seek mental help and a strong antipsychotic if you aren't

>>130700177
zzz the person who wrote this clearly has no real grasp on theology/philosophy

try reading kierkegaard, spinoza, james you dumb shits

>>130721504
It's all fun and games until you realize it's the truth.

>>130700177
Your flowchart shows that people who believe in absolutes are dumb. Not every god is (((God)))

>>130721692
Every conception of a god*

>>130721429
You guys have no proof of your religion being true what so ever. I believing makes you a good person who loves the west then I am all for it good for you but stop acting like the bible is 100% truth you guys dont know and no one really dose.

>>130720752
I always find it funny when people don't understand how the bible works. It's not one book, it's a collection of books. Some are fictional in intent, some poetic, some prophetic, some historical, and some factual.

>>130720144
>church=academy=the institution telling you how you should perceive reality
>priest=scientist=unquestionable expert
>you have to believe both and take their words for it without seeing/understanding it with your own eyes/mind
>if you disagree you're an outcast, labeled as heretic/bigot

yeah totally two different things

>but muh empirical evidence

quantum physics """proved""" reality is subjective and changes with the effect of the observer. that could mean that this physical reality we believe to be solid and objective might just be a shared hallucination. that's what your science says bruh, not me

tolstoy said that it's impossible for men to advance any further as long as we don't merge science with religion. where are we after 100 years passed since these words came out of his mouth? "muh based black science man"

>>130702998
Order does not exist

why do you believe that the scriptures are meant to be interpreted figuratively ? that's obviously not what the authors intended. They intended to write plainly to avoid confusion. God and his prophets never lied, distorted, misrepresented or misled.

>>130721429
>There isn't a single verse in the Bible that isn't literally true.
>>130721943
>God and his prophets never lied, distorted, misrepresented or misled.

Song of Solomon, 1:5 " 'I am black, but comely,..."
How could the Bible be entirely true but still teach impossibilities?

>>130700177
There is an old joke about two rabbis spending all night to attempt to prove god exists. After spending the night pouring over the texts, they both agree there is no god.

The next day one of the rabbis sees the other going to morning prayer.

>I thought we both agreed that there is no god, why are you going to prayer?
>What does the one have to do with the other?

Either way, the tradition around religion brings order, family, and community while droves of secular people are disturbingly unhappy.

>The Bible makes no sense!
In order of consistency
Tanakh > Quaran* > Holy Bible > Book of Mormon.

The aesterisk is because the quaran alters earlier sources to fit the new narrative.

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>>130721447
>implying a book that has been edited an unknown amount of times, translated an unknown amount of times in between edits, with an origin that is still not known has accurate time lengths or any relevance to actual place on earth.
wew

Why do Christians think evil comes from free will? Do animals not behave immorally? Do they have free will? I don't think so, and I don't think we do, either. If I had "free" will, why the fuck would I "choose" to sin, when I know it's a sin?!
What makes more sense: Humans sin because of inherent, genetic imperfections OR Humans sin because they are free. If we were truly free, sin could be avoided. How did Jesus not sin? Do you think he didn't have free will? Christians, why do you choose to sin? Why are you evil, and not good? Free will is NEVER explained because it makes no sense. Every effect has a cause, what makes you think humans are an exception?

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It takes approximately 1,500 incarnations to reach the next stage.

Reincarnation progress...

Caveman -> Barbarian -> Fundamentalist -> Conservative -> Centrist -> Democrat -> Liberal -> Godlike

>>130722073
Every time it's translated, it's translated from the original Hebrew Greek and Aramaic. It's not a telephone game

>>130700177
I wonder if there was an eartquake and ot destroyed a building with people. Who is the evil the earthquake or the building?

>>130722293
>Every effect has a cause
Aye, Then the ultimate first cause is the concept of an entity outside of our full capability of understanding as our own concepts and thoughts are and will always be severely limited.

In addition, you could make the argument that pure logic is of itself a mark of a divines force that is shown through these truths to us in the form of logic and reason.

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>>130701853
>implying there's a 50/50 chance
>not realizing there's as much chance of God existing as of every other god's existence
>still not taking the true redpill
you are lost.

>>130722293
temptations r real nignog
we are free but we get tempted duh
the choice come before the cause or the effect.
i can post dumb shit on 4chan all day and get the effect is a ban but if i choose to not come here in the first place non of that wouldve happened.
>NOOO SENSE WTF UGGHH DUMMM THEEIST
literally kill yourself you useless piece of human garbage.

>>130721760
There's all the proof a reasonable person would ever need. You choosing to stay ignorant and dismiss it is a completely different thing.

>>130722000
>Do not look upon me because I am dark, because the sun has tanned me
What exactly is the problem here?

>>130720951
Newton couldn't manage it tho

>>130722610
>"original"

>>130708248
>torture you for eternity simply for being unconvinced of his existence
You know who God is. You've known for most of your whole life. You know exactly who God is, what God wants from you, what God can do to reward you, and what God can do to punish you. In spite of this, you still try to say "It's okay for me to defy that because I don't have physical evidence proving the existence of God." That in and of itself is what deserves damnation. Someone who was never told about God wouldn't meet the same damnation as you. The problem is not that you don't believe, but rather that you have the hubris to believe that all that is worth believing in must have physical evidence correlating to it. Worse still is that you knowingly commit this error right in God's face. That is damnable.

>>130721933
If you create a video game with random variables it still would adhere to logic.

Take GTA 5 - Typical sandbox game where you can do all sorts of free-will thins with glitches thrown in for good measure; but all actions within it are free and yet governed by algorithms and logic.

You wouldn't say that GTA 5 just randomly appeared.

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>>130700177

>>130721909

go figure the roach is the biggest retard at all. cant suck mohammed's cock enough in private, have to share around?

the entire scientific process is about peer review and challenging previous studies. unlike religion, which says This Book Is 100% Right and you are wrong to disagree. You can literally go out and repeat experiments to disprove them yourself if you weren't a retarded roach. or your findings will repeat the conclusion and reinforce it like gravity.

quantum physics proved that itself does exist using empirical data, unlike anything religion has ever had to show, beyond some random faggot's Geocities page about how the Ark is totally real.

>>130721909
>BASED Avicenna

>>130721909
>Not understanding quantum mechanics
What else could we expect from a roach?
We don't yet know how quantum physics work as a whole, we know of particular effects that can be reproduced such as quantum tunneling, the particle-wave duality, etc. That's why we have CERN in Europe, because we don't know shit and we keep trying to expand upon it. Physics has a lot of unanswered questions as of now and that's why it has the most focus.

>>130700177
How would you define evil? It's going to be relative to something, and having the relation be your own experience is incredibly presumptatory.

>>130722610
The gospels are basically telephone.
So is basically all of history that is not written by the person who originally witnessed whatever occurred.

>>130723319
>the entire scientific process is about peer review and challenging previous studies.

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2014/12/30/fake-scientific-journals.aspx
>In 2005, three MIT graduate students created a program called SCIgen that randomly generates fake scientific papers. Since its inception, over 200 computer generated papers have been published in scientific journals

>>130700177
Oh no, it's one of those overzealous atheist episodes again

>>130723312
I choose you!
>Go Scholomo!!

Schlomos is evolving into
>Zionitron

>>130722924
All monotheistic religions essentially believe in the same God, just with different names attached. Polytheistic gods are an entirely different concept.

>>130700177
it doesnt have to be factual

fedora tippers wont get it no matter how much you explain it. its not about being factual

>>130723518
i feel like the bible is prehistory. as in what happened before we started writing shit down. its the culmination of lessons we can learn from our evolution into civilized humans

>>130723518
>You used to call me on your

>>130723518
Thanks for moving the goalposts. Writing a witness account is not the same as Mistranslating a text. Are you changing your position now?

>>130722928
>hur brains are just homes for the soul
Explain why temptations are greater than others, why we give in to temptations, and why we can conceive of some outcome we wish to fulfill and yet not act along the desired path. Even if the soul existed, does it not have properties? Is it not also a cause? If the brain is the only cause for your behavior, free will is easily disproven. But explain exactly how free will arises, and I'll become a theist

>>130723708
and you back this statement up with??
I don't think Allah is comparable to the God of the new testament.

>>130723887
Or maybe it's a corrupted form of propaganda to dilute some BASED knowledge pre-biblical people lived by.

Remember the burning of Alexandria. Imagine how many other pieces of info have been molested or deliberately destroyed

OP, I used to think like you. Not nearly as angry or bitter, but similar all the same. Good luck to you and God bless.

>>130724058
Aren't you a theist?

>>130722803
....or logic and reason is the result of more complex brains. Animals can do simple riddles, but we just have higher capacities. Just the improvement in memory alone boosts a lot of your cognitive abilities. In chess, you can't think 5 moves ahead if you keep forgetting the state of the board in your head.

>>130723319
And here is what your high priest Lawrence Krauss thinks of peer review:

https://youtu.be/6A7L1y1NTRU?t=435

>>130700177
lol this chart is fucking retarted

it conflates so many points to "prove a point"

neck yourself

>>130724400
no, not even a deist

>>130724581
Do you even exist or are agnostic?

>>130724673
I guess agnostic. Btw here's a good verse for you:
10 Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac. 11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”[d] 13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”[e]

14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”[f]
16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”[g] 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”[h] 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? 25 As he says in Hosea:

>>130724426
No, pure logic exists whether you are there to perceive it or not.
1 + 1 = 2.

Whether you are a dog or highly evolved biological globule, that will always be the case.
1+1 wil never = 3.
>Unless you're a fiat-Banker.

you're wasting your time questioning reality and existence. if existence had a creation point, god is merely whatever the fuck caused it personified. otherwise existence always was.

>>130720082
Do you realize that you're still arguing a theist view, just not an Abrahamic one? Also anthropomorphism is used essentially everywhere to portray abstracts concretely- e.g. Lady Liberty or Uncle Sam or Mother Nature.

Also it's very likely that whatever made the universe made other universes, which could be heaven/hell to us.

>>130724863
Interesting verse but what do you take from it?

It's because religions were skillfully crafted OP. They alleviate people's concerns about death, and it makes people feel better to imagine some sort of father figure watching over them as adults. When you're a kid, you have your parents, but when become an adult you're in charge of your own life. It's scary to people.

Religion is the opiate of the masses, as the saying goes. It makes people feel better.

It's obviously fucking bullshit though. None of it's true. When you hear an unrealistic story your logic and common sense are supposed to kick in and say, "That doesn't sound like it could happen. Since when can a man rise from the dead?" People turn this off for these bullshit tales though.

I hate religion. It's so stupid and embarrassing that grown adults buy into this shit.

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>>130700177
Given that you cannot conceive of a world with free will and no evil, how can you say that a wold without evil would be better than the current world?

>>130725042
religiontards are stupid tho. belive in god or dont, just dont be an irrational faggotshit

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>>130725146
>religions were skillfully crafted

>>130725076
>which could be heaven/hell to us.
BASED Thread theme.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLsXKYQLmiE

>>130724922
Logic is understanding. 1 + 1 = 2 is not a special concept. If there were no humans, then one rock and another would be two, there would just be no one to make an abstract representation of it

>>130723319
>unlike religion, which says This Book Is 100% Right

you do know that there are countless numbers of interpretations of all religious texts right? they evolve just like science

>You can literally go out and repeat experiments to disprove them yourself

tell me one %100 proven fact of science. I'm waiting

>>130723393
you're not saying anything in your post. we don't know shit but we pretend to know because that's the point we've reached so far? it still means that scientists don't know shit about anything at all and everything they say are assumptions

>>130724020
The point is, even if every translation in history has been perfect (not possible) many of the events in the Bible took place long before they were written down. Even if you believe eye witness accounts are always perfect (they are not) there is going to be "telephoning" that takes place as the decades and mouths pass before the shit was written down.

Who wrote the first five books of the Bible?

What position of mine are you referring to?

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I fixed it for you OP.

>>130700177
Hello Faggot. Atheist turned Deist here.

You probably should be asking, "Why do people still believe in Yahweh" because you a limiting yourself to just that single interpretation of "god." It would be like saying, "Why are white people considered white" and posting exclusively pictures of Finnish people.

Also i was so busy being a faggot and responding to your post that I didn't read it properly enough to realize that this is literally bait that has been masterfully constructed.

Slide threads are getting really advanced now.

Capctha: Click all squares with label book
>shows a picture of the Quran.

>>130725146
Religion is not the same as theism.

Tell me if you were stranded alone on a desert island, would you not feel something other than raw atheism?

This isn't to be dicey; you can make a logical argument for theism but it's also the concept of something higher that oneself that cannot be fully understood as we tacitly acknowledge our own limitations.

Religions can and do make full use of this innate desire of knowledge we have to believe in something greater but for the reasons you cite they corrupt this to gain power and profit and thus become the opiate that you rightly speak of.

>>130700177
Your "argument" fell apart two words in to your nonsense. What an abysmal presupposition.
>evil exists

>>130724058
Because they look good to the animal we inhabit
because its hard to get this animal to do what you want
properties as in physical manifestations? No, it exists on a different plane that we are not aware of.
no the soul is infinite. it just it. no beginning no end, just more or less ordered.
Transcend the animal you live in and realize that your not what your body wants, your the thing that foregoes what it wants to get what it needs.
basically we might want to be skinny or want to be rich and we might know how to get those but we live here on earth with physical bodies and physical restrictions and physical needs. these are what tempts us these are what stops us from doing what we know is right. the "Natural Man" is an enemy to god.

>>130725125
I take from it that most Christians only have a surface understanding of free will. This stems from the common discussion of evil and free will, because they think God allows us to choose evil, so we must be free. But it can easily be argued that the Bible doesn't support free will, but of course, most Christians don't read all of the Bible. The existence of evil does not support our free will, as evident by God's willingness to use evil for his own purposes, which I don't think is necessarily a horrible thing. But this must be understood by theists

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>>130700177
Chart is incomplete. it's missing

Then why is there Evil ------> We chose knowledge of good and evil in the Garden of Eden.

There are so many good criticisms of xtianianity, why do you always go for the stuff that's easily explained?

>>130706224
Not an argument

>>130723626

>some retarded red herring that simply says some made up papers were put in a few noname journals

>also some retarded red herring about why journals are feeling pressured to print bad papers due to faulty pressure from academia to publish shit

>literally zero argument against the fact at hand - that peer reviewing and the scientific process is our greatest asset in the search for truth, and that YOU yourself can duplicate ANY paper out there to find out the results for YOURSELF, and in doing so can figure out TRUTH from horseshit

nice non-argument LOL

>>130724248
maybe, but idk maybe everything in alexandria confirmed the bible but they burned it to get back at god, i can speculate too

>>130725446
You miss the point; Reason is understanding.
Pure logic exists whether you make an abstract representation of it or not.

If no-one discovered cause and effect as concepts, they would still exist.
Similiarly, pure logic exists without you attributing symbols to it.

The more you discover the rules of the universe the more you discover your insignificance as a being and the relative significance of whatever new concept you find;
The concept remains as a real piece of truth; whether you discover it or not. It doesn't exist because you perceive it to exist it just does exist.

>>130725914
The funny thing is everyone bitches about God being mean when he was merciful in eden and in doing so he fucked us hard.
They were supposed to die. God went easy on them.

I'm agnostic, and the thing about religion is how there's thousands of religions throughout mankind's history, and not only that, there's different sects within each religion (Such as Protestants and Catholics, for example), as well as different interpretations and translations of holy text and scripture. All of these different groups are convinced that it is their version of their religion that is right, but no one has any real evidence. Because of this, I feel like I can't believe in any religion, or firmly believe in the lack of deities. If everyone is convinced that they're right, maybe no one actually is.

>>130725546
I liked the non 14 year old pol shitposting discussion.

>>130725886
>that we are not aware of

Aren't you aware, that right now, aliens are guiding your everyday behavior for your benefit? You should really try to strengthen your telepathic communications with them, anon. Now, I know you can't see them in the sky, but you can just FEEL their existence.
Also, will you admit that God purposefully made us sinful, and not that we choose sin?

>>130724151
First of all, the word Allah literally means God

Secondly, disagreements over the exact nature of a thing do not make a belief in two different things. If I estimate a hole to be ten feet deep and my friend estimates it to be twelve feet deep, we're still believing in the same hole.

It might make sense to say "Why are you so sure your conception of God is more correct than all the others?", but it doesn't make sense to say "Why would you think God exists when people have so many different conceptions of what he is?"

>>130726220
Religions last until the God's stop producing results (real or imagined) for their adherents.

>>130726082
I have. Gyroscope alone, using the scientific method, absolutely proves the Earth to be non-spinning.

The experiment is observable and repeatable.

>>130700967
God created causality, he is before that, so he can not come rom somewhere. Learn about The Ungrund

>>130711494
If Im not supposed to interpret it literally then its the worst fucking piece of symbolic prose ever.

>>130725888
Interesting.
I think free-will exists with limitations but that doesn't necessarily disprove a theist argument.
Your point about Christian Theism may be important.

>>130726377
>(real or imagined)

So basically like how people see a normal rainy day and go "LOOK! OUR RAIN GOD HAS BLESSED US THIS DAY! WE SHOULD PRAISE HIM!"?

https://youtu.be/ZXqKWL6Sgzo .,

>>130726097
That you can.
It's why we're here.
On 4chan of all places.

>What a time to be alive.

>>130712557
>until you meet someone who claims to be him

>>130726511
The Bible is multiple genres.
One should not read prophetic portions in the same way they would read song lyrics, or poetry, or ancient biographies, or law, etc.
If I gave you a book of poetry and a book on the slow economic collapse of the Soviet Union would you approach both of them in the same manner?

>>130726381

Congrats on the first step of being a scientist. Now go present your findings to other scientists and report back with what they say.

>Nothing existed, and then something existed
Explanation?
If atheism is rational then how do you explain this? Those who believe in God have an answer to this, what about atheism?

>>130719111
It gives dumb people a reason to defer gratification.

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>>130726191
I don't understand your point. Yes, there many concepts that we haven't discovered yet, but what is the significance? Are you implying that God exists because of this?

>>130726220
>BASED Agnostic.

I'm a Theist, but if I wasn't, the arrogance/narrow view or simple stubbornness of many atheist positions considering the fallibility of us as a species, would lead me to be humble and be Agnostic.

>In b4 fence-sitting.

>>130725529
What about children who are born deaf, blind and dumb? Confined to darkness and confusion.

>>130726363
Aye lad.

>>130727192
god is the something out of nothing route for existence to be personified. otherwise reality has always existed

>>130726338
god made us ignorant of good and evil so we have to decide what that is through experience. Sin is simply a way of looking at a decision that in hindsight was probably bad and that you shouldnt do again, its a stepping stone to articulating what is bad. I dont know what mormon beat you into thinking sins are unforgivable.
>thinks that humans have proven that god cant exist because MUH PHYSICS
Physics isnt done yet who knows we might just be aware of it soon

>>130726776
Sure.
The point people fail to understand is this: whether gods exist or not, belief in them has great efficacy (for varying durations) so they may as well be real until they cease to provide for their believers.
Yahweh keeps "coming through" so people keep putting their chips on his number.
When/if Yahweh (real or imagined) stops being effective people will move on to a different "God" (not necessarily another deity, but a replacement outlet for faith such as government).

>>130727320
Agnostic what?

You're not one of those petulant imbeciles who still thinks Agnosticism is a middle-man/mutually-exclusive, right?

Do such idiots still exist?

>>130727192
An atheist simply doesn't know the cause of the universe. They could argue that God can't come from nothing, either. And even if they accepted God, which God is the true one? Too many unknowns, which is why they are atheists. Yes, there are some who claim to know everything, but the whole point of atheism is rejecting the points made by theists

>>130723180
What happens to people who don't know about God etc living in some desert
Do they go to hell?

>>130700177
You know God exists

>>130727320
>>In b4 fence-sitting.

To be honest, I feel like I actually am a bit of a fence-sitter, because I'm also a centrist politically.

>>130727489
No human has ever experienced objective reality.
Literally everything is filtered first through perspective.

Why do people use the God Is Perfect and Your All His Perfect Children argument when gays, lesbians, bisexuals, rapists, atheists, and retards exist?

>>130708688
Majority of them are whors anyways

>>130727819
In America you would be a shit eating lefty.

>>130723319
>>130723393
both of you are parroting what you're being told without seeing with your own eyes. that's called "belief". you're no different than a religious drone

>you can read papers and disprove them yourself

you can't disprove shit while the status quo is protected by peer review system. if the system is corrupt and the so called experts have an agenda, the world will ignore that scientist who's trying to disprove the status quo. again, no different from other religions

also still waiting for that %100 proven fact by science. for example tell me what gravity is or how and why do earthquakes happen? sounds simple enough isn't it?

>>130710147
But a God who created the universe would have to have omnipotence

>>130727192
time lines man he creates new timelines

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1. The Deity's omnipotence does not permit Him to create logical contradictions. That isn't a question of power its a question of sense. Certain ignorant theists try and say He is "above" logic, and when they mean He is not bound by physics they are correct but when they claim He is 'above' noncontradiction they aren't making Him above logic, but rather below it. The Deity can no more create free-willed beings who are also perfectly enslaved and never err then He can form square circles or yellow reds. Let the mystically-inclined undermine this point as they like, it remains true.

2. Your value-set is flawed. The things you think are noble, strong, and good are not necessarily noble, strong, and good, and thus any evaluation you make on the Deity's conduct is necessarily flawed. Not because it is impossible for you to come to a correct understanding of ethics, but because as a matter of fact the average person's values are skewed due to ignorance and stupidity.

What the problem of evil is really saying, properly understood is

"This conception of God, when compared when this conception of Morality, is incompatible with the World as it exists"

The solution is to point out that there isn't one conception of God or Morality, but dozens, hundreds, and defeating the "problem" is as easy as finding a conception of both that does not result in this contradiction.

It is not necessarily to actually argue a conception of God or Morality for the Problem of Evil to be defeated, all that is necessary is to get the person using the argument to admit there are multiple different conceptions of God and multiple conceptions of Morality, and that his argument therefore doesn't prove the nonexistence of anything, it only proves the incoherence of certain theologies.

>>130728219
Why specifically is that?

>>130712304
But you know God exists

>>130727061
It's not how it works. It's just presented to you in such a way, so you can dismiss it easily.

There's countless scientists out there that agree with my results, but you will never consider them scientists.

You're not about the scientific method, you're about the authority.

For the theists in this thread, have John Lennox.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0UIbd0eLxw

>>130727266
Appreciate the definitions; but they are our definitions.
My point is that logic could be but one argument one could use in the vain of Aristotelian logic to say that because something is true as pure logic it therefore exists outside of us knowing that it exists.

In that the existence of pure logic, whether through a codification or use of reasoning, is in of itself proof of a higher plane of existence as it exists with or without us knowing if it.

It's a Avicennan/Kantian argument in many ways, and I'm a right Cunty. bastard.

>>130727635
>When/if Yahweh (real or imagined) stops being effective people will move on to a different "God" (not necessarily another deity, but a replacement outlet for faith such as government).

I feel like that's what is going on these days as religion is declining, because people have a better understanding of how stuff actually works, so people don't have the need to fill in as many questions with "God did it".

>>130700177
Where did the first matter come from? Keep in mind matter can't come from nothing.

>>130700177
Simple answer, no one ever said God or the Universe is actually 'good' as we humans know it.

>>130700177
Some people like making spirituality part of their identity, it's probably also good for giving some people who would have no idea what to do some moral guidelines. I guess it kinda helps with dealing with the bullshit in this world to some extent too

>>130714056
Without God
Evil is just an opinion

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>>130728074
In the Uk us non-liberal lefties would call him either a Blairite or Cameronite.

But never a Lib-Dem. Anon you don't deserve that.

>>130727819
Ah, no probs lad.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KK3eh4Z5Ko4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wth-zdYpX80

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HsQIF7Yh3hI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P89-OOEZTOo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0tmYLEkdM8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SY0rj-TEx4o

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xou0JGUYIjg

>>130700634
>>130700560
>someone in the past said it so it must be true

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>>130712304
Read the comment before you reply

>>130727695
Enlighten me as to my mistaken concept of what Agnosticism is?

>>130720082
Fractals aren't chaotic, they have clear patterns. Some our feeble minds cannot understand by mere sight, but they have pattern nonetheless.

You are far from an atheist. You even believe in prayer and an active god, something that some christians I know don't believe in (everything is more or less predetermined, but they still pray for strength or forgiveness). You seem to have some sort of pagan mystic "I can eat ice cream for every meal" nonsense that you believe in, something that permeates modern culture and is more often the religion of atheists than atheism. And for that all I can say is you are a degenerate. You should not be able to do what you want without fear, fear of dying in alone in poverty, because you failed have children to care for you in your old age, because you squandered your savings on drugs and sex when you were young. Because when that happens you will rob me, use the power of the state to take away the fruits of my labor. You heathens often claim to be morally superior to Christians, such claims are laughable both because that morality is taken from Christianity and you fail to hold up to it.

i always thought that religion is a thing that you think of when science can't explain it. Why where there particles? religion explains that well, that god created it, and science doesn't know. but to say that hurr durr god doesn't want us to use vaccines because science is icky bad isn't right either. Religion is a thing you use if you don't know, science is for things that you can know.

>>130728867
>Someone who obviously isn't scientifically illiterate and ignorant said it, so you shouldn't just dismiss it easily

>>130720082
Supernatural events have happened all over the world
Not limited to the desert

>>130728993
Well said

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>>130728293
>Let the mystically-inclined undermine this point as they like,

I'll take that.

>>130728443
I read that as
>Lennox Lewis Vs Dawkins.

>>130717660
>Moral subjectivism is a cancer that is choking out our culture and our morale that only breeds nihilism and hedonism.

Right on the money. It's truly disgusting how many people buy into it. I was raised reasonably; I thought it was a strawman meme. Turns out that there's tons and tons of people both online and IRL who eat that shit up. It boggles me that someone could be so dead inside as to not just believe in moral relativism, but to seemingly revel in the nothingness.

>>130728531
>I feel like that's what is going on these days as religion is declining, because people have a better understanding of how stuff actually works, so people don't have the need to fill in as many questions with "God did it".
Maybe it is "science" that is doing it, but I have my doubts.
Look at the major events throughout the Christian world in the 20th century. The entire fabric of basically every first world believer in Yahweh got smashed to bits during that time.

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>>130700177
A perfect example of a shill and a larper. They hide behind flags but their comments show their true identity. Nice one nigger kike

>>130729022
Science is great, the problem you have is calling philosophy science.

You're ignoring the scientific method. You allowed people to convince you that pseudo-science can pass as science, as long as there is some authority figure behind it.

>>130728336
Because God is the uncaused cause

>>130721579
Nigger i see u everywhere fuck off

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>>130728993
Wow. Decent lad.

Though I disagree with you immensely you'll enjoy listening to BASED Peter Hitchens.

So, which religion is true?

>>130729253
Kek, that would be great to watch

>>130729444
This.

>>130700177
The "testing" isn't to judge whether we are worthy. As the chart points out, He already knows. The entire point of the grand "test" is for our benefit and growth, not His knowledge.

>>130729444
Why does that require omnipotence?
If God is able to exert every possible power except one completely irrelevant to being the first cause, would God be unable to be the first cause?
If so, why specifically?

>>130729881
Excuse me, replace first cause with uncaused cause.

>>130728074
Would I be seen as that left-leaning? I believe that capitalism is the better option, I like free-speech, and I'm in favor of limiting immigration, so that the infrastructure of the host country isn't overwhelmed. I also really don't like all the SJW and antifa stuff I keep seeing via this board.

>>130729730
Which flavor of ice cream is the best?

>>130723257
Order is a man made concept. It is not something found occurring on its own. Order is simply a word for being consistent, which is judged by human minds. What is orderful to humans might not be to another intelligent species.
Order does not exist and your metaphor sucks.

>>130729318
How do you know your morality is the objective one, and not the countless others? Even Christians differ on certain issues.

>>130700177
>Could God have created a universe with free will but without evil
No, because that would be logically contradictory.
Per St. Aquinas, nothing that would create a paradox or logical contradiction falls under the purview of God's omnipotence, because that would be retarded.
t. not even a Christian

>>130730156
The one that doesn't burn you in hell for eternity

>>130730110
What do you consider to be free speech?

>>130729773
Fun fact:
In an interview for GQ with Piers Morgan, Piers being the twat he is, reveals he tried to belittle Lennox as the archetypal dumb boxer nigga.

Now you may rightly thing Piers a Moran, or that niggas be dumb, or that Lennox is dumb, but Piers was a junior chess champion.

During Celebrity Apprentice, Piers recounted in the interview that he never won against Lennox. playing him at chess. Lewis beat him every fucking match.

And Lennox revealed Tyson was better both as a boxer and intelligence wise; the vultures ate his soul when he lost his BASED white-father-figure.

>>130723312
>worships a jew on a stick
>has the audacity to accuse someone of being jidf
Neck yourself

>>130700177
you speak like a child

>>130729337
>The entire fabric of basically every first world believer in Yahweh got smashed to bits during that time.

I'm quite ignorant on history. Do you mean the World Wars and stuff?

>>130730250
Which one is that?

>>130730249
Does Jesus have free will?

>>130704264
spotted the teenager

>>130723626
God damn Yuri, you really dismantled the entire intellectual community and all the validity of all their works and theories over the last thousand years by posting one link on a numibian goat emporium.

>>130700177
>Why do people still believe in God, /pol/? I can't understand it.

Why can't people believe in nothing like me?

>>130730468
That's what I'm asking desu

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>>130700177
>evil exists

but it doesnt

>>130730332
Any speech that isn't directly inciting violence (Which I think is illegal even in America.). I don't like how people have been arrested in my country literally just for trolling on Facebook or Twitter.

>>130730233
I don't know that mine is correct. In fact I'm fairly certain we don't have everything right.
But I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that an objective morality exists, and is discoverable through human reason.
The fact that we can and usually are wrong does not mean it's impossible to be right. In this regard I suppose I'm closer to a Platonic thinker than a standard theist.

>>130730804
What do you call then the act of one person doing something fucked up to another person? Isn't that evil?

>>130730396
>Do you mean the World Wars and stuff?
Yeah, I mean the world wars and "stuff" like disease, mass starvation, economic depression, the birth of the nuclear age, and a 50ish year period of time where it was thought the world could literally end basically anytime, for starters. The 20th century man became the undisputed big swinging dick on the planet and nearly killed itself.

>>130728476
>something is true as pure logic it therefore exists outside of us knowing that it exists
But do we not know what logic exists? There are physical entities which exist that we have not discovered yet, does that mean that they exist in a higher dimension, also?

>>130731190
*that

>>130730159
>Order is a man made concept.
The you say
Order is simply a word for consistent

Again you've missed the point in 3 of my shitposts.
That consistency that you attribute to existing only because
>we judge it to be so.
Exists whether you judge it or not.

There we digress; Certain order is based on our concept. But even that concept of what order is has to adhere to logic.

And other types of order exist irrespective of us percieving them to exist or not.
Chaotic, random, but some semblance of order exists in our universe.

Because through that order we are communicating. Imagine if 1 wasn't 1 but 2 tomorrow or that 1+1 was 3 tomorrow or was 4 on the second Sabbath of every month.

Or that Earth just slung itself out of orbit and went on an inter-galactic joyride through the galaxies.

Logic is bigger than you mate.

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>>130700177
Reminder

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsGt2VMu27M

Christianity is the fabric that holds are socirty together. It's more than "God is not reel u have no proof" reddit tier arguments.

>>130730804
Evil doesn't only exist in the actions of harm between men, but also in words and deeds that affect nobody else. Don't understand what I mean? Go watch the Spirit Cooking video again, and tell me that those actions aren't evil. There's a reason that ancient cultures made blasphemy punishable by death, and if you have any sort of spiritual dimension to your mind whatsoever, watching that video will make you understand why.

>>130730683
The scientific method is what dismantles it, we're just people discussing it on a medium.

>over the last thousand years
More like 400 years.

Did you know that the heliocentric model was accepted before the invention of planes and balloons?

Do you know the story of Auguste Piccard? Do you know what he said when he returned?

>>130721889
Is the part with the invisible faggot waving a magic wand and zapping up a *universe* fictional, poetic, prophetic or factual?

>>130700177
>From what the bible tells me, he's a narcissistic, childish omnipotent being that created us with free will, then punishes us for using that free will.
Well, no, the Bible explicitly states repeatedly that God is sovereign. Those who are saved or damned are done so by God's independent will, not based on your actions. None does good, no, not one.

God is not your butler. You're an NPC getting mad at the game creator. You already admit, you don't disbelieve in God; you hate Him, because you perceive your life to not be good enough.

Repent and be saved.

Dunno about religion or how to put this properly but i think there's a lot more to the story and a lot of shit we still have no idea about like how man and woman came to be and cause of things like where did we originate from,the chicken and the egg, the pyramids but things like the way the human body to me seems to be created by intelligent design and to me how it works like a intricate machine and that we create things like cars and computers kinda like our body and mind or some shit leads me to believe that we ourselves were likely created by something or there is a most likely a higher power/ more to things then meets the eye

>>130731447
Book, chapter, verse please.

>>130722073
Precisely. This, plus the fact that people 2000 years were monumentally ignorant. Laughable that people even refer to the bible at all.

>>130731336
Societies existed long before christianity did and they still do

>>130730955
Im curious, what do you think the ultimate goal of morality is?

>>130731149
So basically the nuclear bombs made people believe in God less?

>>130731670
>implying today monumental ignorance is a thing of the past
Thanks for the chuckle.

>>130727207
Ability to defer gratification is correlated with high IQ though.. You're upset that religion teaches dumb people to use a tool smart people learned to harness long ago

>>130731451
Why should he try to repent when whatever he chooses is God's will? He has no responsibility to do anything if it's what God wanted all along

>>130731190
We know some logic.
We don't other logic.
But logic or cinsistency or the way the universe works is not and cannot be limited to whatever discoveries of those consistencies we make.

The key thing to note is that Einstein and many like him who were thoroughbred scientists and empiricists back when we hadn't had the infection of a dereliction in societal decency understood the more proofs they discovered, the less they realised they knew and the more they believed in a higher plane of existence.
A
>God
if you will.

We are limited in our faculties to some degree correct?

>There are physical entities which exist that we have not discovered yet, does that mean that they exist in a higher dimension, also?

Aye. The very fact that you can conceive of something existing that may be beyond your full understanding is one tangent that could lead an Atheist to at least consider Agnosticism,

>In b4 spaghetti sky-monster argument.

>>130731926
That is an oversimplification.
Another would be "because shit was fucked up for a seemingly endless period of time in much of the world people stopped betting on Yahweh as much as before", especially in europe, which had a pretty fucking bad century.

>>130731068
>>130731368
>blah blah blah I don't like it therefore it's bad

literally no different from not liking a game or artwork that someone else likes

It's all opinion. the only objectiveness is in the actions that are performed and the events that follow as a result of those actions. morality is irrelevant

>>130700177
Why do atheists think so two dimensional?

First, trying to understand the full power and scale of God is like trying to fill a two foot hole with the ocean, It is just not possible. This is one of the basic rules of Christianity

Free will and evil coexist. Evil is the absence of the Lord, and we choose that as humans. To have evil without free will is a contradiction.

God did not simply disappear for 2000 years, you just refuse to acknowledge him. Plenty of explainable miracles have occurred, and the prophecies continue to be fulfilled. Unfortunately, many would rather play mental gymnastics in order to "disprove" what is happening (ex. Miracle of the sun, three secrets of Fatima).

It also amuses me that atheists can never answer the question of origin. Without God, or anything that does not follow our understanding of logic, the universe would not exists. So it is very clear that our universe is not always rational.

>God's plan is understandable by humans
Why do you assume this?

It's called "faith" for a reason you fucking retards. You need to have FAITH.

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>>130700177
OP is just an ignorant Duning-Kruger fag, probably just graduated high-school.

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On another note and to debase this excellent discussion.
>What one earth do Atheists shout when they have a good orgasm?

Muh, muh, muh
>SCIENCEEEE

>>130717960
>t. Man who lives in a holographic universe

I'm not upset. Religion is a great thing because it gives low IQ people a reason not to be completely hedonistic.

>>130732370
Why do one sect of Christians believe in a trinity when that demeans the very essence of a monotheistic tenet?

>>130731613
The first sentence of the first page of Genesis. Jesus. Even by christfag standards, you're pretty ignorant.

>>130732667
>Implying all Theists believe in doctrinal religion.

>>130732667
Depends on the religion. Scientism is an example of a religion that gives low IQ people a reason to behave like apes.

>>130731932
Relative to today, they were hideously ignorant. If you wish to claim our species today is equally ignorant, then you are speaking only for yourself.

>>130700177
>implying that a life without hardship and struggle is worth living at all

>attempting to prove/disprove the existence of a metaphysical properties/enities using empirical evidence
Nigger that's like trying to measure the Earth with a ruler

>>130732248
>not liking being skinned alive then raped with a 2000 inch dragon dildo with razord blades and then murdered is the same as not liking an artwork
ok lad

>>130732761
>reading the Bible like a science textbook
Wtf I hate God now

>>130732370
>God did not simply disappear for 2000 years
Well, look at the amount of direct involvement "in the beginning" of the Bible. Then consider the sacrifice of Jesus and how it is very hands off in comparison to how shit was handled previously.
Early in the Bible God may pop by for dinner unexpectedly and smite a couple cities after dessert. By the gospels he is cosmically impregnating some peasant stock to interject what is essentially a reset button and giving a window larger than the cable company for actually solving the problem everyone is clamoring for.

>>130732125
If something is beyond my understanding, then I need not consider it. I don't know everything, but that gives me no right to guess at what fills the gaps of my knowledge. Even after you discover God, how do you know there aren't higher truths? This could go on infinitely. How does God know if he's omniscient, if he doesn't know that which he doesn't know?

>>130700177
Your chart is false, this is the correct logical conclusion: Yes, God can prevent evil. Yes, God knows about evil. No, God does not want to prevent evil. This, however, does not make him "not good" or "not loving." It is impossible for meager humans to levy a moral judgment on an omnipotent deity. Our experience is vastly limited compared to his, which constitutes all of everything that has ever existed or ever will. We cannot understand the reasons for why God does what he does because our experience is so limited in comparison to his. Therefore, it is impossible to conclude whether or not God is acting goodly/lovingly when he decides not to prevent evil. Maybe evil is necessary for some reason only God knows.

>>130719990
Then God created a world, knowing it would become evil, thus he is not good.

>>130719785
>If you took that away there would be no free will. Would you rather not have free will? God doesn't seek to torture us. Hell is an existence without God.
And so God made a world where the creations he loves so much make stupid decisions and suffer for eternity? That doesn't seem very loving or good to me.

>He made you. On what grounds can you claim he doesn't understand how the human mind works? He exists beyond time. He knows what you'll think before you do.
Because that's the only way to explain God still being good despite being omnipotent. If he were omniscient, he would know free will would cause great evil and suffering and not go through with it or make a world with free will and no evil or no free will and no evil.

>God wishes to save as many people as possible. He waits for the perfect time for as many people to be saved as possible. In revelations there's a point where God doesn't directly involve himself until the last possible moment so that as many souls can be saved.
An all-powerful being would be able to save everyone. Also, generally putting off doing anything until the last moment is the worst of all options besides doing literally nothing. Yet again, not what a good, omnipotent, omniscient god would do.

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>>130722977
>tfw youre probably too stupid or lazy to give birth to ideas that last centuries
>tfw those who manage to do this get egged on by nobodies in the distant future
Just give me du.bs so i can go home please

>>130732761
My translation seems to differ, such as no magic wand.
Which translation are you reading?

>>130733050
>you have to prove your understanding of life with our ways and our rules. if you can't do this then it's a lie

that's science retards summed up for you

>>130731882
Humans becoming closer to perfection. To God, even if He isn't truly a personal being. Even as an impersonal force, the Way as Taoists believe, or even an imagined being. Even the concept of a perfect being is something worth striving to become more like. Fairness, justice, and a reduction in suffering would all necessarily result from this, but are effects of the true goal rather than ends in themselves.

>>130732370
>free will and evil co-exist
>>130722293
Read that

>>130729881
Omnipotence meaning doing anything logically possible

>>130731068
If God does not exist
Evil is just an opinion

>>130733133
it is

you understand what subjective means right? that's what opinions are, subjective opinions that cannot be objectively proven. morals are opinions just like any other opinion.

>>130733798
People who commit suicide believe that is the most logical choice because it removes suffering altogether. Some would argue that perfection is found in robots, so we should just kill all humanity and let technology flourish. Same for aliens. Concerning a perfect HUMAN scociety, people have different views on how they should operate, and how they should be attained. Should we kill all inferior people? Should we take away all freedom to preserve stability? I don't see where the objectivity comes into this, because everyone disagrees on something. How do you know for sure that there are objective moral truths?