Nazi Germany

Oh, and the famous ''muh K/D ratio nigguh'' argument.
>in reality, combat deaths on EF were like 1.3 to 1 in Axis favor, slaughtering and starving civilians doesn't relate to combat prowess

true


nazis were/are retards

>>130411974
>> /k/

>>130411974
>>tanks were either worse than tanks of their opponents, or over-engineered
As if you knew anything at all.
More like shortage on materials made it neigh impossible to build the tanks the way they were designed.
Older engines had to be used and materials for the alloy composition had to be changed as they became unavailable which made the armor brittle.

>>130413157
Bullshit. Their designs were flawed. I'm not talking about quality of construction.

>>130411974

>zio slave tries to justify his actions as the fire rises

>V projects cost as much as Manhattan Project yet they were literally useless

but you know that the americans used the design of the v2 to build their saturn rockets (the Apollo rockets)

>>130413589
>buzzwords
>>130413664
>if you help your enemy, you win

and btw only ONE county which was crippled after WW1 was able to conquer whole europe in less than a year

>had numerical advantage, both in terms of troops and manpower, and almost entire Europe at their disposal

????

Obvious bait

the Germans had the number advantage on the eastern front? Hahahah

>>130411974
>tanks were either worse than tanks of their opponents, or over-engineered expensive shit that couldn't go 50 km before breaking down

OP believes Shermans were superior to Panthers and StuGs.

>>130413902
Losing twice is not winning l. Naziboos are as retarded as Communists. You are virtually the same thing with a little racism thrown in the mix. Your economics were as much of a joke as the commies'

>>130411974
>LL was around 10% of Soviet production
thats a massive amount

>>130413997
they were
>leave 20 shermans on enemy territory
>enemy captures them
>the sherman catches on fire (as expected) while german troops are transporting it
>the fire kills the crew
>???

>>130413902
What does that even mean?
They simply exploited strategic opportunities and inaction of their opponents. Once they attacked a real power (Soviets), they got their teeth kicked in.
>>130413916
>>130413969
1. Check Barbarossa numbers.
2. Check Soviet population in 1940, then remove Ukraine and Belarus which were lost quickly.
3. Combine manpower of Axis powers, and consider that they had shitload of collaborators too.
>>130413997
They literally were. Cheaper, more reliable, good protection, good weapons, and when they got 76mm guns they could wreck any German AFV they faced.
StUG is not a tank, it's an assault gun. You can't compare them. And it was based on Panzer III chassis.

>>130414176
It's not irrelevant but claiming Soviets won only thanks to that is absolute bullshit. It helped a lot, sure, especially in terms of logistics (trucks), but Soviets won because they fought better and marshaled their resources better. Simple as that.

>>130413997
>can make 10 shermans for 1 panther
>they gangrape it to death and lose 2-3
>can make 20 t-34s for 1 tiger
>they gangrape it to death and lose 5-6

Nazi Germany lost the war because they made awful tactical decisions in battles, awful logistical decisions in campaigns, and were so focused on wunderwaffen that they didn't just make something that was viable both combat-wise and manufacturing-wise

>>130411974
>>most of army used horses for transportation
Stopped reading there

Provide sources or gtfo, Chaim

>>130414256
>le ronson meme
Post-war mythology. Sherman was not more flammable than any other tank in service.
And also, while it was a mass produced tank, it had shit like gun stabilization. Germans never got to that point.

>>130413157
Sutgs and pz4 where decent even being low armored, then some retard decided to push for the tred biger better and fucked it all up.
>Tiger 1: Big, slow, bad design, getting stuck into mud, fuel consumption high...
That was the problem of most late designs tanks produced after the pz4.

You guys can cry all you want on how good the jagdpanther was but in reality an important factor in battles is to be able to retreat minimizing loses and not lose them from fuel shortages

>>130414624
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horses_in_World_War_II#Germany

That's a well known fact to anyone who knows shit about WW2, but I guess you don't fall into that group.

>>130413902
Germany was hardly 'crippled' from the Treaty of Versailles. It was still the biggest economy in Europe during the Wiemar period before the Nazis ever rose to prominence.

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>>130411974

[citation needed]

More people will take your rant seriously if you cite your claims next time, hick. Such as the V-project costing as much as the Manhattan project.

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>>130414624

Pic related shows the invasion of Poland on horse-drawn carriages, Hans. What did they teach you in Geschichtsunterricht?

>>130414626
t. William Sherman

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>>130411974

Yeah that's good >Ironicflagobviousbait.jpg

Enigma

Flawed Tanks but still fought a 2 front war against 2 incoming superpowers, stating they lost is an afterthought and tries really hard to ignore the fact that they raped quite a bit of units on the way to their defeat.

while being cringworthy is still feel the need to defend them because despite Britain being such a small island there are several battles and tactical mistakes that the allies had made, Dunkirk, Northern Africa. The entire operation of Market Garden,

MG42

>It overheats,

It's still the fastest fucking MG in existence and the fact that it was made by them in that time period when world war 1 MG's were essentially boxes with a watercooling barrel and existed 2 decades before WW2,

The entirety of what D-DAY was and why it was done that way, you see if the allies couldn't land their main invasion force they would never be able to retake France, 200 men in a 10 miles stretch of land (Just in the pillbox bunkers alone) Managed to kill 4,414 Americans with causalities being 10,000+ and the weight on their end was similar to the number of Japanese mimicking their losses in battle which was 4k-9000.

Point being, a small group of germans held back over 40,000 men for 4 hours on a 10 mile stretch of beach, being shelled by Naval ships and overwhelmed by allied aircraft. (It was the weakest part of the beach echelon too)

So go ahead and tout the muh Germany wuz no problem cuz they loss meme

But you downplay the severity of the damage they did to Europe and Northern Africa just by themselves.

You don't get to be a single country in Europe and then fight both Superpowers on a 2 front war and manage to kick a lot of ass before you cave because some autist broke enigma.

You're trying to hard m8.

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>>130411974
OP, I'm a veteran tank gunner, M1A1U to be precise. Basically you don't have any idea of what you are talking about.

>>130414588
Panther wasn't even that good design as people think.
It had flaws like gunner not having independent sight to acquire target more easily, shot trap in front of a turret, awful transmission.
Still, I wouldn't call it a bad design. Just incredibly overrated by Wehraboos and alike.
For example at longer range it had some advantages, but most tank combat happened below 800 meters and at 500m both 76mm Sherman and 85mm T-34 could pierce it's frontal armor.

Hitler was a jewish puppet... only reason he had a chance in the war is because (((they))) gave false intel to ussr which allowed them to make staggering victories in summer 1941

>>130415294
>OP, I'm a nigger who lugged around shells in a tank, that makes me an expert of history of warfare
Nice try.
>>130415124
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9f8zv7dNxQI&list=PLv0uEimc-uN-xmvYYHmcCSSZzPOEu0vEu&index=5

Watch this video, this guy explains whole V weapons thing nicely. He also provides sources.

>>130415269
>Enigma
Literally broken, are you trolling or something?
>2 front war
Only from late 1944, and they were beaten in next year. What's your point?
>MG42
Cool design, but cool designs don't win wars on their own.

I'm not even saying Germans fought badly, on the contrary. But Germans fighting well and Nazi leadership are things that aren't connected. They fought well in spite of their idiotic leadership.
Same Germany endured a REAL two-front war while having to save a crippled ally and even knocked out Russia in WW1.
What Nazis did was nothing compared to that.

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>>130415725
You are full of crap buddy. Being 17 and having autism doesn't make you an historian.

>>130416181
Yeah but you sure trumped all I said because you said you were a tanker. Guess US Army only employs retarded people.

>>130415725
>Nazis only took over the entire European continent, they weren't even that good

Be careful with that edge.

>>130411974
>Why the fuck are you idolizing these clowns?

Read some serious history about the Wehrmacht instead of playing World of Tanks and watching the history channel.

>>130414506
they didn't so much fight better than were just better prepared for winter
letting hitler make significant decisions was a mistake, if he had his way, the Stg44 wouldn't have seen combat because he thought it unesthetic
individual commanders were usually good tacticians, though not all, of course

>>130415096
>wasn't crippled

You're being obtuse or trolling

>>130411974
Still managed to take most of Europe and had to hold their own against the combined might of the U.S, U.K, etc.

>>130415643
I'm laffin'

>>130416833
In what way was Germany crippled?
The restraints on its military that the allied powers didn't even enforce? The fact of the matter was the Germany was the biggest European economy BEFORE and AFTER WW1. The Treaty of Versaille didn't change that.

>>130417014
>my definition of crippled is their relative economic strength to its neighbors and other sovereign powers

>They weren't caught doing it, so obviously it wasn't enforced

I'll just leave this here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWKfpOtFtBc

>>130417181
Wow this one guy from elite force was doing shit, that changes everything!

>>130417155
You're dodging.
In what way was Germany 'crippled'? The treaty didn't stop them from amassing armaments or from being the dominant economic power on the continent. What's your 'correct' definition of crippled?

>>130411974
>most of army used horses for transportation
Still the most mobilized army in europe at the time

>V projects cost as much as Manhattan Project yet they were literally useless
agree, that money should have been used to build up the luftwaffe with long range bombers or the kriegsmarine

>tanks were either worse than tanks of their opponents, or over-engineered expensive shit that couldn't go 50 km before breaking down
Your are talking about the late war monsters. pz 4/stug 3 where reliable work horses

>had good pilots and planes but used them in a retarded manner which meant they all fucking died after racking up irrelevant kills which made Luftwaffe impotent late in war
Agree, goering should never have been at the top of the luftwaffe

>inferior in every area except rocketry and submarines to UK and USA
disagree, they outperformed The UK and US until 1942.

>had numerical advantage, both in terms of troops and manpower, and almost entire Europe at their disposal, yet they were wrecked by Soviets fighting on basically one front until late 1944
They underestimated the Soviets but who could blame them? They fought russia in ww1 and won easily

>m-muh LL is not an argument
LL gave russia a change to fight on. It did have a moral inpect on the russian high command. https://ww2-weapons.com/lend-lease-tanks-and-aircrafts/

had a leader who was high on meth and actually believed a 1000 ton tank was a realistic project
>leader who tried to micromanage everything and tried to control battalions fighting 2000 km away, and involved himself in shit like tank design for some reason
>leader who sent 300,000 troops to Tunisia to get captured, unable to comprehend that Mediterranean was lost and there would be no way to supply them properly
>leader who sentenced the 6th Army to destruction because he was bamboozled by Goering
Hitler is an idiot if it comes to warfare.

>>130417484
I just didn't answer your question because your argument's core points are flawed

If you want an answer, paying the equivalent of one hundred
billion USD, the entire War Guilt clause, losing territories/colonies

They picked themselves by the bootstraps after being picked clean nigger, they had fortitude - it wasn't because of their default economic strength you seem to think existed

>>130411974
Forgot to add
>retarded planing unable to secure oil reservers
>goering beeing complete idiot
>when RAF was on bring of breaking up, hittler got asspained after one bombing and changed focus from airfiels to civilian targets , giving raf much needed moment to regain strenght

The list is long. Hitler was ussles idiotic sergant from WWI. Thankfully assasination and coup didnt worked or we would be living in Reich now.

>>130417900
>paying the equivalent of one hundred billion USD
They never payed anywhere close to the amount specified in the Treaty and the allied powers negotiated down the amount multiple times before Germany stopped paying altogether. Furthermore, the relative damages to GDP was less than what Germany itself imposed on France after the Franco-Prussian War, and France had no problem paying that off.

> the entire War Guilt clause
How does this 'cripple' Germany?

>losing territories/colonies
While a matter of national prestige, they were not very profitable ventures. It hardly affected Germany's financial state.

You actually don't know what you're talking about.

>>130418826
If he knew what he was talking about he wouldn't be a Hitlerboo.

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>germany was basically a economic shithole in 1933, 6mio unemployed, weakest military power in europe
>sept 1939- jan 1942: run over europe completely while being inferior in manpower and material, almost triumph over the russians but fail due 40-50° minus during moscow battle
>continue fighting for 3,5 years against the worlds 3 biggest superpowers having superior might in ressources and manpower (almost unlimited resources in comparison)
>"clowns"

yeah kys...

>>130412395

F

>>130419923
gets split in half ofter war
losse balls
become cuck nation
turkey 2.0 in 2 gens

>>130412227
Go back to /k/ you ameriboo mongrel

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>>130420533

>>130412227
It's not like the soviets fudged the numbers and counted loads of legitimate soldiers as "civilians" because they sent them into battle without rifles.

Most armies used horse drawn shit for the most part, in the early parts of the war anyways. The Germans never made a real effort to make enough trucks to fully mechanize their logistics nor could they really probably afford to with all the fuel consumption they would have. Where they really fucked up was people like Hitler and basically all his friends he got into power, who knew some things obviously but many people were much more qualified to make massive strategic decisions usually involving production etc.

>only make the tiger 1 fuck all the stupid heavy and super heavy tank designs
>focus on pz4, stug and old chassis TD conversions
>make as many panthers as possible, try not to use slave labour for critical components or add 10 tons of shit without a new transmission or engine

Really probably would not have mattered, none of the offensives the soviets did aside from the Moscow offensive could have been possible without lend lease. Bagration? Would not have happened without the hundreds of locomotives and hundreds of thousands of trucks given to the Soviets. Not even counting the fuel, ammo, food, tanks etc.

>tfw you overengineer a tank

>>130420658
Reality is Ameriboo, huh, really makes you ponder...

>>130413540
The design isn't flawed when you suddenly lack an important alloy for the composition of the steel and have to make up the difference some other way.

The one of biggest criticism of German tanks is the overly complicated suspension systems they used. The Germans weren't stupid, they knew exactly what they were doing and what the Russians and Americans were doing. The complex suspensions that the Germans used resulted in a 90% reduction in rubber required.

Rubber happened to be something the Germans couldn't get at all, they had to make synthetic rubber from synthetic oil made from coal.

The Germans were fucking brilliant with how the managed to make do with the resourced they had.

>>130421356
>56% white jewish playground that literally has more jews in it than the state of israel

>>130413820
>postwar actions
>enemies
Are you actually, unironically retarded?

>>130421228
>hundreds of thousands of trucks
t. retard who doesn't understand decimals

explain in 5 words why I should even give nazis a second thought. Can't? Not suprised to be fair.

>>130421455
You're correct, however what matters is how a weapon system fares in real combat, and I wouldn't stretch it too far by saying they would be better off if they upgraded Pz IV a bit than by building Panthers.

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It won't happen that way this time.

>>130415725
>Only from late 1944
You forget Africa, huge luftwaffe resources to deal with brits, Balkans was practically a second front etc.

>>130421228
>Most armies used horse drawn shit for the most part, in the early parts of the war anyways. The Germans never made a real effort to make enough trucks to fully mechanize their logistics nor could they really probably afford to with all the fuel consumption they would have.

Every single army on the planet used horse-drawn equipment with the exception of the Americans post d-day. The Germans had to make a decision as to how they would use their Trucks. They found that getting supplies to the front faster was far more important than mechanizing the whole army.

As a result they focused a small number trucks in their Panzer formations for mobile infantry and the vast majority of their remaining trucks were used exclusively for transporting supplies to the front.

This was the correct decision because they spent the majority of their time fighting on the defensive, and thus getting the supplies faster was more important than advancing faster.

>>130421962
Still, most of resources and best units were sent East.
>>130421995
I just used that as a counterpoint to "muh technologically superior Wehrmacht".
Wehrmacht relied on ghetto-rigging and improvisation more than ISIS.

>>130421781
>and I wouldn't stretch it too far by saying they would be better off if they upgraded Pz IV a bit than by building Panthers.
100% wrong.

The Panther's had a few teething problems at the beginning, but if you look at the numbers, by the end of the war the Germans had managed to fix all the transmission issues and reduced the cost of production to almost exactly the same as a PZ4.

The PZ4 wasn't designed to be mass-produced, the methods used to construct it required skilled craftsmen and took more time.

By the end of the war the Panther took less time to build, costed less in raw resources and was far more capable than the PZ4 in every single category. The Germans managed to produce almost as many Panthers in the last 2 years of the war as they produced PZ4s since 1938.

The only problem with the panther was that it came too late, as with most of German equipment.

>>130414624
Literally the biggest weakness of your army during WWII
We grew up hearing how P-47s used to strafe them down with .50s
https://youtu.be/ALH2LazrzgE?t=2m42s

Did the holocaust happen OP?

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>>130421716

Wow, really made me think with that post.

>>130422296
But it was less combat effective than Pz IV. Though I guess that was partly because of inexperienced crews.

>>130422592
That played the biggest factor. Many people assumed that because the Panthers were so much better, they were crewed only by elite forces, but the opposite was the case. They were mass-produced and often crewed by completely green and often fanatical troops who were too confident in their machine.

It was the best tank of the war objectively. It just came too little too late.

The whole deal was kind of over after the failed Moscow offensive, even Barbarossa in some schools of thought. But in reality would the Soviets have capitulated simply because Moscow was taken? Yes it would most likely be a massive morale hit but completely shaking them to the negotiation table? Maybe not splitting army group south and going for either the oil fields or Stalingrad with full strength. Not leaving the 6th army and letting it break out etc. But really, even if this all went to plan i still doubt they would have "won". That and the retarded policy they were going to have in the east, could they or would they have really done it.

To be honest, getting to annex two entire countries without any real consequences is where i probably would have stopped for a bit.

>>130414624
A fucking disgrace

go visit a library

>>130411974
10% is an absolutely massive amount in a nation where everything is stretched so thin everyone is starving.
Relative to gaffes by the British, Soviets, Italians and the French fries nazis mistakes were nothing amazing.

>>130423169
The real mistake the Germans made was pushing north instead of south at the beginning of barbarossa. The stalingrad offensive in 1942 was too late, they should have opened with that thrust and taken the oil fields while the soviets were still disorganized and willing to trade space for time instead of fucking around at st-petersburg for no payoff.

Had the Germans secured the baku oilfields in 41, the whole war may have turned out differently.

Of course, they should have focused on fortifying the russian border and taken out Britain first, as everyone knows 2-front wars are the worst.

>>130415643
>Hitler was a jewish puppet

How?

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>>130423578
>taking out britain
What?
In order to do that they (Luftwaffe) would have to win the battle of britain, which is highly unrealistic, nigga what?

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>when you encircled a couple million conscripts and guard divisions in the pripyat marshes

It took like 2 years to fully clear these guys out of the marshes.

>>130424095
The British were on their last legs during the battle of Britain, they had a handful of functional fighters left. The Germans had to just keep pushing for a few more weeks.

Not to mention if they had never switched away from military targets, it would have made the situation even worse.

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>>130411974
>Finnish army
>barely had any aircrafts
>barely had any tanks
>barely any anti-air weapons
>barely any anti-tank weapons
>got some panzerfausts from Germans
>took on the mighty Soviet army
>maintained independence
>had an insane K/D ratio
Why do so many /pol/acks refuse to acknowledge the obvious superiority of Finns?

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>>130411974
youre absolutelly right. whenever i see one of these naziboos here on /pol/ unironically praising hitler and the nazis i cringe so fucking hard.

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>>130424324
The problem then would be securing a beachead, since the Fallschrimjager division was exhausted from fighting in the netherlands, and then transport troops trough the english channel

>>130424375
I don't know which desert you've been burying your head in, everyone acknowledges the tenacity of the Finns.

>>130424375

>stabbed the Germans in the back during the lapland war albeit to give them a chance of not getting btfo by the soviets

Still, kind of fucked up.

>>130424324
>things that never happened
Not only is that not true but the British were also out producing the Germans in fighter aircraft.


And, even assuming they DID defeat the RAF, there's still the whole thing of actually invading without a proper navy (see how much shit they lost invading Norway and Denmark alone) against an island nation with the largest navy in the world.

>>130424538
Nonsense, they were able to pull off the Invasion of Crete just a few months later.

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>>130421479
you forgot how we are the wealthiest and most powerful nation on earth.

>>130417014
did they not go through a massive economic collapse after the war?

>>130424375
finns are my waifus though

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>>130414624
its in all the history books, european education everyone.

>>130417487
Not just that, but the Finns had recently annihilated Russia.

Lend Lease and huge manufacturing development wasn't factored by Germany.

Germany was also held up saving Italy from almost losing to Greece prior to starting Barbarossa.

>>130413664
Nonsense. Comparing the primative V2 to the Saturn launch stages is ridiculous - there were many generations of technology between the two. Von Braun's people worked on all of it, but the V2 was not the basis of the Saturn platform, you fucking dumbass.

And the V2 was useless, in the context of how and why they were used. They had horrifically bad aim, most of them didn't hit their targets, and the brits were able to fool the Germans by reporting all of them missed, so the Germans miscalibrated their targeting (Nazis could be serious dumbasses - I mean, we fooled them with an inflatable air force).

Considering the cost of the V2 program, and it's results, it was a massive failure. Sure, it gave us Von Braun, and our space program, but in terms of the war, it would have been more effective to spend that money to send German soldiers to London on boats and carriages to throw grenades.

>>130411974
most of army used horses for transportation
>V projects cost as much as Manhattan Project yet they were literally useless
wrong.

>tanks were either worse than tanks of their opponents, or over-engineered expensive shit that couldn't go 50 km before breaking down
so wrong.

>had good pilots and planes but used them in a retarded manner which meant they all fucking died after racking up irrelevant kills which made Luftwaffe impotent late in war
ridiculously wrong.


>inferior in every area except rocketry and submarines to UK and USA
hilariously wrong.

>had numerical advantage, both in terms of troops and manpower, and almost entire Europe at their disposal, yet they were wrecked by Soviets fighting on basically one front until late 1944
stupidly wrong.


>m-muh LL is not an argument, Battle of Moscow was a defeat before any relevant quantity of LL equipment reached Soviets, and LL was around 10% of Soviet production
insanely wrong.


>had a leader who was high on meth and actually believed a 1000 ton tank was a realistic project
batshit crazy wrong.


>leader who tried to micromanage everything and tried to control battalions fighting 2000 km away, and involved himself in shit like tank design for some reason
bald britney wrong.


>leader who sent 300,000 troops to Tunisia to get captured, unable to comprehend that Mediterranean was lost and there would be no way to supply them properly
the earth is flat wrong.


holy fucking shit, you are without question the most stupid person that will post a thread on this board for the entire week. and it's only sunday. god damn you are retarded.


>leader who sentenced the 6th Army to destruction because he was bamboozled by Goering

>>130424757
There come a lot of problems with supplies aswell, since the uk had a fuck-all fleet at the time, while germany had basically 0 compared to britain, and without supplies men lose battles, then lose morale, then their lives

>>130414588
You're forgetting one of the key elements:

George S. Patton.

>>130424375
BEDEN :D

>>130425389
There could be a degree of Air supply which the Germans proved they could to during Stalingrad. But primarily they could keep the british fleet out of the channel purely by having air superiority. It doesn't matter how good your fleet is if you are going to park it in a river and make a perfect target for thousands of stukas and other ground attack aircraft.

>>130424778
How many trillions of debt?

>>130415370
Yeah, no. The German tanks used high velocity munitions, while the Sherman used low velocity, made a huge difference. The reason why we prevailed was the Sherman was faster, lighter, and could rotate it's turret faster. In a one to one face off, the Sherman loses.

But you throw in the above, plus overwhelming numbers, better air support, and a guy like Patton commanding them, then you have a dominating armored cavalry.

>>130425864
Also American tanks were ordered not to engage German tanks in most instances. They were to withdraw upon contact with Armor and call in an airstrike.

The Luftwaffe was especially horribly mismanaged. They didn't build a corps of maintenance technicians that could keep planes going from their forward operational airfields. Even aircraft with light damage were trucked thousands of miles back to Germany for repair.

>>130425952
>Even aircraft with light damage were trucked thousands of miles back to Germany for repair.
I mean, that's pretty much how it works if you buy a German car today.

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>>130426075
pic related

>>130411974
>>most of army used horses for transportation

Everyone used horses for transportation.

http://olive-drab.com/od_army-horses-mules_ww2.php

learn2militaryhistory faggot.

Hitler got greedy, he could have kept his gains in Western Europe and bred a whole new generation of young fascists who would be loyal to the Reich and 18-25 years later used them to invade the USSR, but he thought he was dying and wanted to see Russia crushed in his lifetime.

>>130414624
There's no need to source something is common knowledge

>>130413997
Shermans were clearly inferior one-on-one, but since the Sherman was cheap, they had a lot more, and they more more disposable. This is important, because the German lost more tanks from abandoning in the field (no fuel, mech breakdown, etc..) than were destroyed by enemy action.

>>130417484
Dude. The history is easy to read and understand. The Treaty of Versailles imposed massive reparations on the German government, for the damage it caused to other countries, and it's well known that the damage to the economy was one of the things Hiltler used to gain power. They also didnt expand their military until Hitler violated the treaty. Their "power" was great diminished after WWI, on purpose. Granted, Germany played games, like hiding the general staff instead of disbanding them, but they did not walk away from the war unscathed. Ever hear of the hyperinflation of the Weimar Republic?

Read a fucking book or two before running your mouth, for fuck's sake.

>>130425951
This is true. American medium tanks weren't to engage other medium or heavy tanks, that role was left to the TDs (tank destroyers). They didn't often call in airstrikes until late because the communication systems of the time had too long of a relay time. By the time aircraft could be diverted toward the target(s) the enemy tanks would be long gone.

>>130414624
>Stopped reading there

Then use google and start reading again, faggot. One minute is all that's needed to confirm large numbers of horses and mules used on the western front.

>>130411974
>>130411974
>tanks were either worse than tanks of their opponents
Panzer III, Tiger, Panther.

>>130425758
>There could be a degree of Air supply which the Germans proved they could to during Stalingrad
You mean failed to do? They failed to supply the 6th army. One army.

>It doesn't matter how good your fleet is if you are going to park it in a river and make a perfect target for thousands of stukas and other ground attack aircraft.
What is interdiction? Before you even remotely manage to sink half of the RN you wont have a single transport craft left and if any do survive there wont be any functioning ports to serve them because guess what, the Germans didn't have landing craft or floating docks. In fact most of their "transport" were flat bottomed river barges that could maybe do 6 knots at sea meaning a british warship could sail from friendly waters out of reach of the Luftwaffe to the channel before the Germans can get across.
This is, again, pretending that Germany could win the BoB and that the British were not outproducing the Germans in fighter aircraft.

>>130412227
Can't wait for the next Vietnam thread to reuse that. I'll make sure to put your real flag in too

>>130427855
We had a better k/d than Russia

>>130427427
Go back to playing world of tanks, your attempts are sad.

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>>130427855
>preparing for an Internet argument

>>130428385
>wehraboo accuses others of getting all their info from video games

>>130411974
>And there's more. Why the fuck are you idolizing these clowns?
>>130415725
>I'm not even saying Germans fought badly, on the contrary
What are you even trying to communicate
Go back to /his/ or /k/ for a >Muh nazi circlejerk

>>130425302
wrong

>>130427427
The only reason, aside from tactical stupidity (not targeting military), that the Luftwaffe didn't "win" the BoB was because their planes were simply not designed for it. They had the fuel to cross the channel and then spend 5, maybe 10 minutes over Britain.

The Spitfire, Typhoon, and Hurricane were simply put, not remotely a match for the Bf-109 or the Fw-190.

By the time the Brits had a good Spitfire, Germany had basically been bogged down in Russia, Africa, and Italy to the point that the Luftwaffe could do nothing on D-Day. (That said, they did manage some sorties and their K:D was as good as it was throughout the war, but they were outnumbered like 7:1)

Also keep in mind that Germany, in terms of strategic bombers, was useless.

That said, the Hurricane actually killed more Germans than the Spitfire by a large margin, according to British records. There's a discrepancy between Fighter Command and the Luftwaffe's records for the BoB, and personally I'd side with the Luftwaffe because the UK loves to propagandize.

>>130428521
>wehraboo
Being objective about something makes you an extremist.

Go back to your BLM rallies.

>>130424130
what game?
Do i need a high autism level to play?

>>130429600
HOI 3, and yes.

HOI 4 requires much less autism. Much more streamlined. Plus it's on sale now.

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>>130411974
>most of army used horses for transportation Lack of resources
>V projects cost as much as Manhattan Project yet they were literally useless
Imagine if we finished our nuke program
>tanks were either worse than tanks of their opponents, or over-engineered expensive shit that couldn't go 50 km before breaking down
Forced to use older engines because of shortages and so on, still as good as the soviet ones
>had good pilots and planes but used them in a retarded manner which meant they all fucking died after racking up irrelevant kills which made Luftwaffe impotent late in war
Do you mean the blitz? Do you really believe it was irrelevant?
>inferior in every area except rocketry and submarines to UK and USA
I wouldn't want to drive a Tommykocher
>had numerical advantage, both in terms of troops and manpower, and almost entire Europe at their disposal, yet they were wrecked by Soviets fighting on basically one front until late 1944
Having an entire Europe isn't helpful if it's full of resistance movements
>m-muh LL is not an argument, Battle of Moscow was a defeat before any relevant quantity of LL equipment reached Soviets, and LL was around 10% of Soviet production
What is that even?
>had a leader who was high on meth and actually believed a 1000 ton tank was a realistic project
You go manage an entire county without stimulatnts
>leader who tried to micromanage everything and tried to control battalions fighting 2000 km away, and involved himself in shit like tank design for some reason
Do you mean Speer? I don't think he got involved in battlefield tactics. If you mean Hitler, he wasn't involved in tank design.
>leader who sent 300,000 troops to Tunisia to get captured, unable to comprehend that Mediterranean was lost and there would be no way to supply them properly
I blame Italy
>leader who sentenced the 6th Army to destruction because he was bamboozled by Goering
I agree Goering should have been exiled years earlier.

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>>130428385
Nice rebuttal.

>>130428954
>that the Luftwaffe didn't "win" the BoB was because their planes were simply not designed for it. They had the fuel to cross the channel and then spend 5, maybe 10 minutes over Britain.
This is an argument for what?

also, let's not mention
>>the radar
>>the fact the UK was outproducing Germany in fighter production

>The Spitfire, Typhoon, and Hurricane were simply put, not remotely a match for the Bf-109 or the Fw-190.
Ahh, yes the Bf 109, which was such a wonderful plane it had something like 20% losses due to accidents in 1939-1940. Guess that part doesn't really matter, huh.

Btw, I like how you point out the "superiority" of German airplanes but at the same time claim it was the weakness of the German aircraft that caused them to lose the battle.

>FW190
The airplane that didn't see service during the BoB? What point are you making again?

Let's also not mention all the german death traps in the air
>He 111
>Ju 87
>Bf 110
To mention but a few.

>and personally I'd side with the Luftwaffe because the UK loves to propagandize.
>personally
I wouldn't because you were wrong several times in quick succession and I'd wager you're wrong again purely based on that.

>>130429224
Being a Wehraboo is not objective. German tanks and logistics were dogshit, and their planes either had terrible maintenance issues or were flying deathtraps

>>130431096
The pot calling the kettle black.

>>130426770
> Ever hear of the hyperinflation of the Weimar Republic?
The hyperinflation of the Wiemar republic was self inflicted as a way to dodge paying reparations. It quite literally was a scheme concocted by the German Central Bank to diminish the dues they agreed to in the treaty, dues which were comparable to previous treaties that are not seen as 'excessive'.

Ever heard of the "Dawes plan" or the "Young plan"? The allies revised down German obligations multiple times and extended generous loans to help them meet payments.

You actually haven't read a book on this subject so its ironic that you would accuse other people of your ignorance.

>>130431176
Are you calling American logistics dogshit? We were the only motorized supply chain when Germany was using horse drawn carts.

>>130411974
>hey lets beat some dead horses again on premise of the revisionist commie narrative fellow goyim

>>130429861
>Imagine if we finished our nuke program
You didn't have the resources or manpower, it was never feasible for Germany

>>130430304
Considering that you are spouting several tired, old myths I wouldn't act so smug. Your knowledge is solidly in 80's revisionism.

>>130431624
You're delusional. Read a book

>>130431410
No, you accuse me of being a wehraboo when you are being the exact opposite.

And germany only used horse drawn carts for dragging weapons around, supplies were fully motorized.

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>>130431424
>pointing out how much of a failure the Nazi's were is "revisionist"

>>130431690
That's something you should do because you clearly haven't.

▲
▲ ▲

Hate it with the newfags theses days, pol. Can we go back to b4?

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>Germany becomes the only nation besides France to ever fully control continental Europe.
>HOLY SHIT THEIR ARMY SUCKED THEIR TECH WAS SHIT AND THEY COULDN'T FIGHT

Yes tell me more oh wise one.

>>130414640
well thay had to build bigger tanks its just that they fucked up while doing it

>>130431777
That's objectively untrue. The entire supply train for an infantry group was horse-drawn

>German propaganda focused on the highly mechanized parts of the Wehrmacht that carried out the Blitzkreig, but even near the end of the war, in November 1944, of a total of 264 German combat divisions, only 42 were armored or motorized. The German Army maintained an average of about 1.1 million horses through the war with a single German Infantry Division using 4,000 animals. The great bulk of the German combat strength -- the classical infantry divisions -- marched into battle on foot, with their weapons and supply trains propelled almost entirely by horses or mules.

>>130432435
Clearly it only happened because the rest of the world felt sorry for them and decided to inflate their ego before showing them the superiority of the thinly-armored, low-velocity, flammable allied cock.

>>130432435
How is 1941 (the year that the US, USSR and the British were all in a state of war against Nazi Germany)-1945 12.5 years?

>>130432741
Of course the infantry was horse-drawn there was no reason for it not to be.

Anything that needed to be motorized was motorized and anything that didn't need to, wasn't. It's not a hard concept to grasp.

>>130432741
There's nothing wrong with horses for logistics, especially if you are low on gas and oil. Every army at the time besides the Brits made heavy use of horses. Since when is this a bad thing?

>>130417487
while you may shit on hitler for pz8 but die ratte wasnt his idea

>>130432775
The Jews declared war on the Nazis in 1933, the allies started their demonization propaganda at the same time.

>>130432870
>Of course the infantry was horse-drawn there was no reason for it not to be.
>And germany only used horse drawn carts for dragging weapons around, supplies were fully motorized.

Topkek. Anyway, the issue with that is the infantry are too slow to properly follow up when tanks move in. Russia evaded even huger losses when their forces got "encircled" because German infantry were too slow to enforce the pocket. All German leaders knew it was a glaring weakness, especially compared to more motorized forces like the US and Britain late-war

>>130423719
How financed him? You're welcome

>>130433241
There were regular infantry divisions and motorized infantry divisions.

Some walked, some rode in trucks.

Also, the supplies running from the trains to the front were also motorized, regular infantry divisions were supplies by truck from depots. While they advanced on their own, they carried their own supplies by horse-cart.

>>130433052
Are you retarded? When going against a more motorized force like the Germans did having horse powered logistics and transportation is a massive weakness.

I think you all are full of shit

>>130433241
The horses were actually an advantage in some ways, especially in Russia where the roads were shit and the rail was a different gauge, and the supply lines were to long to keep trucks well-fueled. It's not like the Russians weren't using tons of horses either.

>>130433441
Wrong again

>A German division was supposed to be logistically self-sufficient, providing its own men, horses and equipment to haul its own supplies from an Army level railhead

>>130433668
They were, every power except the US used large numbers of horses, but mechanization of the Red Army was much more widespread than in the Wehrmacht. As for the road conditions, the trucks we gave the Russians worked just fine all year except during mud season, and thus were still an advantage over the Germans

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>by the end of the war all sides became absolutely masterful at that kind of warfare
>which all most immediately became obsolete so dickwaving over it is pointless

Take the real redpill

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>>130433791
>Supposed to be

They abandoned that quickly. Read about the supply system during Barbarossa.

Germany lost the war mainly because of Hitler's blunders and intelligence failures. The idea that the Germans didn't posses the most technologically advanced weapons is fucking retarded. It was impossible for them to compete with quantity, so they focused on quality. This was a conscious decision after the eastern front bogged down in 1942. In short, get fucked retard.
>>130411974

>>130414430
>an american intellectual

>>130434140
No they didn't. Horse logistics were part of what destroyed the Germans in Stalingrad

>Horse logistics slowed down the German advance. The 6th Army, engaged in urban warfare in Stalingrad, was unable to feed or graze their horses and sent them to the rear.[24] When the Soviets enveloped the 6th Army in November 1942, the German troops were cut off from their horse transport and would have been unable to move their artillery had they tried to evacuate the city.[24] In an earlier envelopment, the Demyansk Pocket, 20,000 horses were trapped together with 95,000 men and airlifting fodder drained precious air transport capacity

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>>130434489

>>130411974
Still they took all Europe in a few months.

>>130431565
The manpower was on the battlefield and the uranium wasn't out of reach, the Nazi government just didn't back it.
inb4 someone starts talking about the Rügen explosion

>>130433984
The Russians had plenty of fuel and allied help to make their mechanized logistics viable. They also had to shift supplies in transit back and forth between trucks and rail fairly often to get to the front line because their roads were so fucked up, they weren't just driving all their supply trucks from the factory straight to the front. The Germans didn't have the luxury of being able to make wide-spread use of rail when they penetrated deep into Russia. The Germans did the best they could with what they had, if they had attempted to mechanize more than they were actually able to it would have weakened their army.

>>130434554
>German troops were cut off from their horse transport and would have been unable to move their artillery
Dragging weapons around.

>>130414430


The 76mm gun couldn't defeat the frontal or flank armor of a Tiger I. And it had to be at what is essentially knife fighting ranges to reliably defeat the frontal armor of a Panther. And the Easy Eight still had toilet paper for armor.

The late war tanks did have their issues. But they still maintained a better kill to loss ratio over the Sherman, Cromwell, T-34,etc.

The Allies won on the tank front because of air superiority and flooding the battlefield with cheap, expendable deathtraps.

>>130431096
>>130431176
This is the type of person who flies P-51's in War Thunder and gets mad they can't space turn like in Red Tails.

>>130434947
>And it had to be at what is essentially knife fighting ranges to reliably defeat the frontal armor of a Panther. And the Easy Eight still had toilet paper for armor.
It couldn't even pen the hull of the Panther at any range, considering it was better protected than the Tiger 1 when you add in sloping. Only the turret was vulnerable and at close ranges only.

>>130434973
I don't play video games.

>>130434624
Are you defending a guy that said the germans had more manpower than the soviets?
>american intellectuals

>>130434710
Besides France and Poland (who were attacked on two fronts anyway) everyone the Germans invaded until Barbarossa were smaller pushover countries.

>>130435617
I'm defending a countryman against a foreign attacker

>>130411974
because we are brainwashed. it's all we know. quit bullying us!

>>130435499
War Thunder Sim mode isn't actually a simulation.

>>130434840
Maybe they shouldn't have invaded Russia then.

>>130411974
they wer made to fail.

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>tanks were worse
>Germany literally changed the face of warfare forever because of their tanks

>>130435856
I'm not the leaf retard spouting Wehraboo memes. You seem like you get all your intel from Call of Duty

>>130435782
Goes to show how insecure you are about your shit country

>>130436063
Their tanks were worse, the tactics they used with them were not

>>130415190
i didnt knew this, LOL!

>>130436129
Okay Ivan

>>130436070
>Call of Duty
If I did, I would sound much more like you.

>>130415294
>OP I suck cock on a daily basis
>Basically, you don't have any idea of what it means to suck cock on a daily basis
I think I understand what you mean

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>>130436063

> mfw muh blitzkrieg change the face of war meme was mostly nicked interwar Czech tanks and all the famous panzers were just trying to limp alongside the ruskies

>>130436185
My name is Christian, Mr. Jose Rodriguez.

>>130436338
Our country being 20% spic is preferable to yours being 20% Turkish

>>130435905
They almost pulled it off and didnt have a choice, the Russians were massing for invasion before the Wehrmacht was. That's why so many units were encircled in the early days of Barbarossa.

>>130436317
The Germans only captured 244 Pz. 35s.

>>130421781
Yes you would, because the PzIV was pushed to its limits. You couldn't fit a larger gun in the turret, including the larger 75mm used by the panther, and you couldn't put more armour on it. All you could really do is redesign it to have sloped and not stepped armour.
The japdpanzers were a much more viable in a tank killing role.

>>130437067
Also, the turret turned really slowly, especially in the J variant.

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>>130411974
People who idolize Nazism don't give a shit about freedom and are calling for their own improsinment in a fascist regime. I'm sure they'd somewhat enjoy it.. until their "great" leader dies and some fuckface comes along and does shit that they don't like. Too bad the people under the regime wont be able to do shit about it because, well, it's a fascist regime.

People that idolize nazis and fascism act like it has worked in the past. EVERY single fascist regime has crumbled and fell in one way or another. For people who claim to care about their future generations so much, they sure ass hell disregard the stability and freedom of their future generations. Not to mention all the deaths that the warmongering fascist, Hitler, has caused. Britian appeased him and he still wanted more, getting millions of his OWN people killed.

Let this be a note to all these nazis that live an America. Don't take your freedom foregranted. Its sad how people have died to give us the opportunity to live in a free country where we are ensured our rights and have a say in government and you fuckers would throw it all away for a fascist. Get the hell out.

>>130422799
>It was the best tank of the war objectively.
As long as the engine didn't break down. I think the average lifespan for them was not much more than 150 miles.
Also, the late-war soviet, and to some degree American and British armour were more than a match for them. The frontal hull of the panther is only 80mm after all. Even with it's slope, a 122mm shell wouldn't have had much trouble with it, and a 152mm shell was basically guaranteed kill.

The British 17 pounder and by extension the Fireflies it was mounted on also built a nasty reputation among German tank crews, who were told to prioritise them.

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>>130437307
Oh, you're right, it turned out perfectly.

>>130437521
Engine troubles don't mean the tank is bad.

>Even with it's slope, a 122mm shell wouldn't have had much trouble with it, and a 152mm shell was basically guaranteed kill.
So the Germans made a medium tank that could only reliably be killed by heavy tanks and superheavy spgs. Sounds like a winner.

>>130437307
To add to this... If you want to live in a country that uses its people for a collective effort to create such great societies and has great buildings, technology, etc. while having their people practically be slaves, move to fucking China.

You idiots fail to realize that our free market has allowed for us to have the same, if not more architectural developement and technology, etc. as china despite not being under a similar form of government.

>>130437685
Not to mention, the Panther could easily kill anything carrying those guns and do it more accurately.

>>130432747
Late war allied guns were high velocity

>>130435641
Yeah, and czhechs that were attaced from polland as well. Who are you triyng to fuck with? Nor Poland or France had no chances against nazis (neither had Britain to be honest)

>>130437532
"Gay people are coming out, it's a total failure, omg!"

What a shitty argument. You're trying to justify bullshit by using the temperary rise of faggots. I could give a shit if someone is gay. As long as they don't bitch about their faggotry or promote it, you shouldn't either care either. Of course, some are promoting faggotry, etc., but their battle is being lost. People see right through that shit.

>>130437890
Some of them, the vast majority of Shermans still used the regular old 75mm.

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>>130437974
What are you getting upset about?

I totally agree with you that everything has gotten much better since the end of the war.

>>130411974
I ask this all the time. They were retards

>>130415269
>You don't get to be a single country in Europe and then fight both Superpowers on a 2 front war and manage to kick a lot of ass before you cave because some autist broke enigma.

They dont' give out participation medals in war - the Germans lost because they were shit strategically.

>>130437307
This has to be a copy pasta, only a cucked boomer with kosher implanted thinking can write something like that.

>>130413902
Thats cause Europe in general are retards

>>130437685
The firefly is not a heavy tank or self-propelled gun. Also you're kind of moving golaposts here. The allies had plenty of methods of knocking out panthers which became ever more available to them as the war went on. Meanwhile the overall quality of the panther didn't improve much.

The soviets also had the SU-100 which used a gun that had excellent penetration.

Also how does a crappy engine not mean the tank is bad? It's a very important part of the tank...

>>130437790
>Not to mention, the Panther could easily kill anything carrying those guns and do it more accurately.

The standard engagement range during the second world war was not particularly far.
In any case the Russian 100mm and the British 76mm both had good accuracy, the panther is also a very large target, by American and soviet standards it was a heavy tank. It was also quite slow, as the engine couldn't handle going anywhere near its top speed.

>>130411974
What is an LL?

>>130438495
"It has to be the jews m8"

Bro. The jews push dumb shit like the holocaust and other bullshit. I don't give a fuck about the holocaust. The main reason why you support hitler because you were lied to about the holocaust (so fucking what?), and because you admire him for wanting to create an aryan ethno state. That's all. That's literally it. If you admire him for his accomplishments, that's cool too, but plenty of others have had accomplishments close to his. His country has had breakthroughs in science and medicine, but so have many others.

Does that invalidate what I said before? No. Still a shit regime to live under. Quit being so simple minded. I sure hope you don't live in the states too. Reaping the benefits of the values of our nation while hoping to throw it all away.

>>130438858
One other thing that I forgot to mention:

The panther could NOT easily kill anything carrying those guns.

The IS-2, ISU-152 and ISU-122 all had 120mm sloped armour, a panther had to close in to get through that.

Even the SU-100 had 75mm sloped, hardly invincible but a major upgrade from the T-34 and SU-85'S 45mm.

>>130423578
True but why did they do this, cause Hitler was dumb and nutz. He insisted on satisfying his dumb obsession

>>130436609
Stalin refused to believe that Germans were going to invade Russia and the Russian army wasn't prepared. Not because they were planning an invasion of their own.

Is everyone here with a nazi flag a retard and defends Germany unconditionally?

>>130438858
It's not moving the goalposts when you consider that typically there was only 1 firefly per platoon. Sure the allies could kill the panther, but the panther was a cheap, mass-produced tank. By the end of the war the production cost of the Panther was almost less than a Panzer 4.

Essentially the panther was a T-34 with far better armor and firepower.

And APCR from the Panther could easily punch through any soviet tank, considering it had comparable penetration capabilities to a normal round from a long-88.

>>130438380
Wow, such sarcasm.

You use one city to push your sarcasm to try to undermine the accomplishments of the USA as a nation. Did you forget that the USA is made up of thousands upon thousands of cities? No other country has ever been able to do what we have. None. Never. Whether it's with sports, or, now, the military, technology, music, hollywood ("meh jews"... so fucking what? still the greatest movie producers in the world) entrepreneurship, and so forth.

I'm tired of people trying to undermine our accomplishments by painting them as an evil scheme. Hollywood is a fucking accomplishment, the NBA, NFL, MLB are accomplishments. Yeah, they're infiltrated by uneducated retards that try to influence our politics, but they're just that, uneducated people, of great talent, that have a huge voice.

>>130423515
>10% is an absolutely massive amount in a nation where everything is stretched so thin everyone is starving.

Soviet Union received only about 20% of total Lend Lease. Of those 20% only 16% was delivered to SU in the year when Battle of Moscow was fought. During the same year, conquering Moscow was beyond even the wildest Nazi dreams, Army Group South was encircled down in Stalingrad and Soviet counterattack in Leningrad collided with Nazi final attack on the city which resulted in a stalemate after which no further attacks on the city were possible.

In other words, SU more or less defeated the Germans with barely a fraction of LL supplies. The bulk of supplies delivered to Soviets as well as opening of the 2nd and eventually 3rd front were more of a bribe to keep them from kicking the Germans and making a separate peace (along with appropriate concessions, i.e. Scandinavia, Poland, Balkans, possibly Turkey and Middle East)

>>130439352
Part of the reason was Finland. They had done well against the Russians in the Winter war and Hitler thought they would open up a second front against the Russians once the Germans got up there.

They did, but the Fins refused to advance beyond their pre-winter war borders. They recaptured land they had lost and stopped advancing.

>>130411974

Christ, raelly makes me wonder, since the germans were so incompetent as you say, how could they ever manage to organise the gassing of 6 million jews in 5 years?

>>130439840
No one cares, take this to another thread.

>>130440087
They used them as crew for their shitty tanks and planes.

>>130413997
Shermans have proven to be wonderful tanks what the fuck are you smoking?

Of course when they punched above their weight class it wasn't so fun(Panther was 45t, shermans were ~28t in heavier wartime configurations) but generally speaking it was great all around tank with extremely very well-thought ergonomics.

>>130440087
yeah, it's like than taking on a military juggernaut is harder than killing masses of unarmed civilians

>>130426715
Tbqh this. Hitler could instead of invading the ussr, invade the uk and securing the whole western front for good. Then years later, continue with the other plans.

>>130440247
The ergonomics were fantastic, as every russian who had ever tried them attested. Even the Germans who captured and used them said as much. But their guns sucked and dying in a comfy tank isn't much solace.

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>>130437685
war isn't pure tank on tank combat, you know.
having a variety of different caliber and velocity guns on a cheap and reliable chassis is by far better than focusing just on anti-tank capabilities.

a medium tanks primary use is infantry support, which is why having a good HE shell and several MGs (in particular the turret mounted .50s) goes a longer way than pure anti-tank focus. A Sherman or 34-85 is much more useful in say an urban environment.
Panthers were known to get stuck in the narrow streets of France and their weight wasn't very friendly to bridges either.

>>130439632
well i guess all those millions of troops, specifically made for assult bt5s and 7s were for defense? and all those preperations for paradroping

>>130439670
>And APCR from the Panther could easily punch through any soviet tank, considering it had comparable penetration capabilities to a normal round from a long-88.
Not at ranges that allowed it to be safe from the soviet guns. Most of the soviet guns were also far more versatile since they better high explosive rounds were excellent for shelling infantry formations or bunker busting.
Also the high explosive rounds were excellent against panthers, since you don't have to worry about long range robbing the round of it's penetration.

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>>130439091
You're beloved abstract values are going to be gone as soon as the founding stock of the country gets replaced by third world mud people. Your unwillingness to face the bigger issue in fear of being labeled racist or "Nazi" is going to cost you the country.

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>>130440628
In France sure, but on the eastern front where most of the tank combat took place they were in their element.

>>130440671
All valid points, but we are still comparing medium tanks to Heavy tanks. The Tiger 2 is a whole other can of worms.

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>>130440815
in the spring mud?
lmao not with that weight

>>130441200
Those poor jagdpanthers, my tankfu.

>>130436609
>>130440630
You morons should take a look at organization of Soviet military pre-Barbarossa. They had ghost divisions consisting of nothing but understaffed HQs, tank divisions that had 2-3 operational tanks, artillery brigades with no guns attached to them, etc.

while it's not impossible that somewhere down the line the Soviets and Germans would duke it out, it sure as hell wasn't gonna happen in 1941

>>130411974
>>m-muh LL is not an argument, Battle of Moscow was a defeat before any relevant quantity of LL equipment reached Soviets, and LL was around 10% of Soviet production
I agree with you on everything but this, LL even early was extremely important as it was vital supplies like fucking boots that made the soviets able to endure winter.

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>>130419923
this^
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4Cy1Rle_TA

>>130441382
just because they were shit doesnt mean they werent planning to do anything, also you still have to explain the troop number and offense specific weaponry

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>>130441200
Yeah, mud can be a bitch.

>>130440087
It's really not hard to round up town-dwelling sons of a bitches who could've been recognized by simply looking at them or telling them to show their dicks.
>>130440560
Invade the UK with what?

Compare the amount of surface vessels between Royal Navy in this theatre vs Kriegsmarine. That's without pointing out that they were never able to win air superiority
>>130440590
The gun was okay by the time it arrived, it just wasn't very good(or good at all) after they've started encountering Panthers in larger quantities. It's also important to point out that the ordnance wasn't very willing to give their crews enough of more modern AP ammo(from tungsten-cored to early sabot rounds), which wasn't the case on the eastern front.
Then obviously Americans did have the upgrade ready but retarded TD doctrine made its adoption slower.

Ergonomics are also more than just being comfy. For example - Shermans, according to reports almost always fired first, even on advance. Reason? Better peripheral vision. Sights are often called bad in documentaries(it's just that Germans had good ones) but they omit the fact that the tanks have had wonderful indirect fire sight, which was used surprisingly often(basically every single western and eastern tank since had sights like this until the mid 80's based on wartime experiences).
>>130441382
The state of the army pre-barbarossa is quite interesting, because it showed that they were going through super-quick build-up/modernization period.

I think the idea that they would attack in 1941 is not very realistic, what's more probable is late spring 1942, they were just mobilizing in this specific way because given the scale of their to-be army, it was easier this way.

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>>130411974
Did they or did they not whip the arses of France, Britain, Belgium and the Netherlands combined in one two-part campaign?
It was the drill, sense of duty and corps-spirit of the soldiers which is admired throughout the world.

>had numerical advantage, both in terms of troops and manpower, and almost entire Europe at their disposal
kek ... you obviously know a shitton about military history and the opposing numbers... numbnut

...also our uniforms were so fucking slick and who can deny the iconic look of a StuG III

(((american reeducation)))

>>130441812
>also you still have to explain the troop number
in July of 1941, Soviet Union had a total of 2.6 million personnel in its western sectors, 1.8 million personnel in its eastern sectors and additional ~600k personnel deployed elsewhere/in training

Germany had 4.5 million personnel on its eastern border.

In other words the supposedly attack oriented army of the SU was outnumbered almost 2:1 in an area they, according to your theories, were supposed to attack and had committed only about 50% of its total strength towards this imaginary offense. Furthermore Soviet Union hasn't even begun full scale mobilization/conscription, something Germany had started many months earlier. It's more than evident who was preparing for attack all along, and who was caught with their pants down, thoroughly unprepared for even defensive operations, much less any meaningful attack.

>and offense specific weaponry
you mean the masses of I-15 biplanes, antiquated I-16, or those LaGG 3, MiG 3 and Yak 1 that were inferior to Bf 109s even though they only started rolling off of production lines? ffs their *offense specific weaponry* didn't even have radios.

here's a fun fact for you, in June 1941, this mighty Bolshevik menace that was moments away from striking at the heart of innocent Aryans everywhere, only had 4 (four) pilots trained to handle the measly amount of 240ish MiG 1s and MiG 3s.

coupled with aforementioned total disarray in organization, obsolete weaponry and numerical disadvantage (when common military sense suggests a minimum of 3:1 ratio of attackers v defenders to be a minimum guarantor of successful offensive operations) it's quite clear that there was no impending attack, not in 1941, not in 1942, and probably would never happen because Stalin wouldn't risk his own ass to gain more clay and people - he could barely handle tons of clay and people he already controlled.

>>130443675
(((America))) would have been murdered by Russians if the Nazis had refused to help (((them)))

>>130443841
ussr had 2.8milion on the western border while germany had 3.1milion and that includes its allies get your numbers straight

>you mean the masses of I-15 biplanes, antiquated I-16, or those LaGG 3, MiG 3 and Yak 1 that were inferior to Bf 109s even though they only started rolling off of production lines? ffs their *offense specific weaponry* didn't even have radios

i guess bt5 bt7 a-20 t-50 doesnt count plus just before the invasion ussr was producing shitloads of parashutes
as for the planes and other equipment as i said just because they were shit doesnt mean they werent planning to do anything
>winter war

>>130411974

You're leaving out their worst flaw, they didn't actually kill 6,000,000 jews.

>>130445012
>they were totally going to attack us with less people, worse weapons, and non-mobilized, just look at all the parachutes they made

are you clinically retarded or what? in my first post I said that eventually there might have been an offensive from the Soviet side, but it would happen years later. meanwhile entire Nazi ideology rested on taking over eastern lands, making Ukraine the India of the German Reich and so on. this was all public Hitler's (and co.) speeches and ideas way before Barbarossa.

>winter war
you mean the war that Hitler openly supported? granted he did it because he wanted to use the Soviet invasion of Finland as an excuse for his own invasion of Norway but still. further more the Winter war wasn't fought for Helsinki or whatever, but for Baltic sea bases

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>>130414156

>>130446131
>you mean the war that Hitler openly supported? granted he did it because he wanted to use the Soviet invasion of Finland as an excuse for his own invasion of Norway but still. further more the Winter war wasn't fought for Helsinki or whatever, but for Baltic sea bases

thats not the point i was making

> there might have been an offensive from the Soviet side
holy shit and youre the one calling me retarded

>>130446514
thanks, figured as much

>>130418120
>Hitler was ussles idiotic sergant from WWI
*Corporal

>>130429757

HOI4 is a piece of shit, why would you ever recommend it.

>>130429600

It's hearts of iron 3, an amazing game. Only two good mods for it are HPP and Blackice, blackice use to be a big meme mod but now it is pretty much the best mod for the game in terms of events and flavour.

>>130416281

They wouldn't want their intellectual elite to end up as cannon fodder now, would they?

>>130416497

>Took over majority of Europe
>Couldn't kill a bunch of inbreds on an island

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OP is unironically correct. Even though I think he didn't gas the juice, this doesn't invalidate Hitler from being incompetent in not listening to his generals and his overambition plans to actually follow through with conquering too fucking much land because "muh lebensraum".

I personally just see nazis as the lesser of two evils, where the greatest evil was the commies. The western allies did some bad shit too such as Dresden bombing but in overall, they fought what they believe in at the time, the conservative utopia for their lands instead of kikes, cultural marxism or whatever shit /pol/ likes to lie about. Western allies at the time would be considered literal nazis by today's standards anyway.

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>>130411974
naw, they were fucking sick

Fuck off

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_Q_qwPAVvc

>>130448406
>implying the Western Front was relevant to the war

>>130411974
Agree with everything although projects like the StG44 and Ho299 kind of give them lead in all avionics and small arms on top of their rocketry and small arms. Also weren't their subs based on Polish technology?

>>130448725
>Hitler was incompetent

Says the guy who thinks halting the advance on the Eastern Front would have won the war.

>>130414626
>Post-war mythology. Sherman was not more flammable than any other tank in service.
At the start of the war it wasn't a myth. They quickly started to install wet storage for munitions soon after.

>>130439840
tl;dr

>>130411974
>Dear diary today OP, for once, wasnt a total fag.

>>130413969
soviets never enjoyed numerical superiority until the end of the war.

they could however replace their casualties faster than others because of their larger population.

equipping and transporting more soldiers wasn't a reality.

>>130450743
The issue was the the gasoline, that would catch fire after any penetrating hit. They were called Tommykocher (Kocher = cooker) because of that.

>>130449914
He could have easily won the war if it was just western front. Most of the human loss and battles took place on the eastern book. Lrn2history please.

What happened to peoples Reichmarks after the war, like did they lose everything or what. I know some little post-war currencies were established and then replaced etc.

>>130422311
>tfw my aunt once told me that supposedly an aircraft once tried to divebomb my gandpa (just a farmer) when he was out on his horse to get some hay or some shit
luckily he missed

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>>130411974

>>130451911
No shit. That's why your idea that halting the advance on the Eastern Front would have won the war is ridiculous. He needed to speed up the advance.

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>Hitler builds a big ass battleship, Bismark
>it sails around the Nordic and North British waters for months BTFOing the royal navy and sinks their most prized ship
>keeps getting away and sinking British ships through a combination of royal navy fuck ups and strategy
>eventually the royal navy gets fed up and sends a fleet to 4v1 the Bismark
>one royal navy ship damaged
>Bismark is BTFO, literally.
>the 4 ships reduce it to floating Slag, firing even after its dead, until its melted pile of metal on the water.
>it still doesn't sink, they have to leave and send another ship with ammo back to actually sink it

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Say anything bad about nazies
instantly a horde of larping nazy edgelords
>HAHAHA JEWISH PROPOGANDA
>LMAO SHERMAN MEME
>TRUSTING PROVEN SOURCES IN 2017 6 SEXTILION SHEKELS DEPOSITED IN YOUR ACOUNT
>MUH PROPOGANDA VIDEOS
>BUT BUT BUT THEY WERE BASED AND THEYR IDEALOGY WORKED SO GOOD IT GOT WREKED IN LESS THAN 20 YEARS
pic realated

>>130455277
>eventually the royal navy gets fed up
>eventually
All that happened within 4 days.

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Lurker and warfare autist here. I'm just gonna say this: all of you faggots talking about "but the germans took over Europe, they fought 2 fronts, they destroyed lots of units!"
Shut the fuck up
>the point of a war is to win
A war is a change in power structure. Men are sent to die and billions are spent to gain power. The war ended with german split in half and millions are germans dead. Even the prussian ancestrial home of Koenigsburg was repopulated by russians and is now Kaliningrad. I hate you fucking Wehraboo's. The Nazi's were sycophants licking the boots of a short, bavarian corporal with halitosis. Fascism was a failure. Nazi-boos please do us all some poetic justice and gas yourselves.
/rantover/

>>130460470
Hitler was such a retard he ordered experienced panzer crews as INFANTRY to street fight in stalingrad. Paulus sure could have used the when the Zhukov came calling! The dumb fag wouldn't let the 6th army break out, despite numerous reports that the airdropped supplies weren't cutting it. Of course that retard Goering said it would work because, oh yeah, he was a fat sycophant

>>130460884
That's not to say the German soldier fought badly either. The fought valiantly and endured many hardships. Wenck and his 12th army could be considered heroes for disobeying hilter to save civilians a remnants of the 9th from the soviets at the end of the war. But the Nazi leadership was retarded. Every faggot on this board that idolizes them needs to be conscripted into the Wehrmacht in 1945 when the russians were closing in! Most of them would be hitler youth, since the only people that idolize Nazi's past their teens are mentally ill

V technology was rudimentary....not useless. The final product of such experimentation were ICBMs and cruise missiles, both of which are incredibly powerful weapons of war.

The manhattan project was an enormous gamble, whereas rocket technology had already been proven throughout history.

Wonder projects were definitely a misstep for the Nazi regime, but the V series rockets were not an example of a failed project. If the war had continued for another few years, there is significant evidence that V rockets guidance capabilities would have been improved on.

Slamming endless series of unstoppable 5k kg bombs into residential blocks ir military targets from hundreds of miles away sounds pretty terrifying to me. Especially if it was happening in a world without nuclear weapons.

>>130461913
The war continuing for another for years would have meant the Germans holding back the western allies, suppressing partisans, holding back the soviets, stopping air raids from destroying their industry, obtaining raw materials....

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>>130411974
Why are you still so scared of an ideology, kike?