I'm useless to the cause!

>>130284353
You should just stop being autistic, there are watertight arguments for everything we believe in, what is it you're debating people about?

Meditate, clear your mind to articulate your thoughts better.

If you don't have the thoughts there to begin with you probably just score high in empathy, so you're not the debating type.

>>130284353
You're probably just shit at debating in general.
If you're just following their pace, then you'll be BTFO sooner or later since there's eventually gonna be a topic or angle that your opponents are more verse in than you do.

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>>130284570
Flippin eck mate, all sorts, the usual - Immigration doesn't come up that often, that is the one argument I feel confident about defending.

It's hard to go back in my memory and recall every argument they made, so I can't give one example right now. Just the feeling of failure every time I'm engaging people in this, usually, they start it, so i feel under-prepared 99% of the time to be honest.

And, as you well know, these situations are occurring in the pub, so alcohol has been consumed at this point and coherent arguments are about as rare as unicorns.

I just feel I'm doing more bad than good. And it's really fucking depressing!

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>>130284894
Can confirm, I do have a high empathy rating! How should I use that do you think?

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>>130284353
>Read most of the articles archived
>Watch nearly every video link posted
have you considered books?

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>>130284958
This. As much as I hate that, because I admire the fuck out of people on here for how informed they are and how quickly they can get their facts together and retort shill posts. I am not on this level. I wish I was and I have really tried. I'm just not that autistic! FUCK!

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>>130285086
I did spend about £100 on books last year, I got a few on Debunking Socialism, and Islam - But I no longer have them and never got the chance to get into them, and have been without a fulltime wage for the past 7 months, so haven't been able to afford to re-buy them, but I will as soon as I have the disposable income.

>>130284353
Communication is a skill, just because alot of us have it naturally does not mean it isnt and it certainly doesnt mean that it cannot be improved.

For simple things try to agree with a person 2 - 3 times, its better to get the person to agree with you rather than you agreeing with him, this way you make the conversation less defensive, after that present your argument, the person will react differently i assure you.
Smile, even when talking through the phone, in your voice it is noticeable when you are smiling or not.

If you simply have a problem articulating, you need to practice articulating, im abit on the autist side in this case i suppose, because i often debate myself and learn that way. Sometimes i even lock myself into a corner where i end up researching on the subject to combat my self. Bit crazy but it is practice.
An important thing is to pick and choose your battles. And honestly when it comes to giving a good image to a movement, what you can do is being a good image, if youre wrong admit youre wrong, if you dont know enough admit you dont know enough. Admitting your wrongs is something only an intelligent person does. Fools will babble on about things they are ignorant about like as if it is the truth no matter how wrong they are.
Not everyone is born with a 130+ IQ but that does not mean that not everyone can be a civilised, knowledgeable human being. Most of all follow the principles you believe in and be happy and make your family happy. That is of more use than debating idiots on the internet.

>>130284353
Maybe debating is just something you're bad at. Maybe you are better at being able to sit, and consider all the arguments, and source them. Then come up with a well written formal response. Not everyone is good in the heat of the moment. Worse, for us we'll usually be up against an entire group. In those cases you need to be able to not just outsmart one, but all of them at once.

>>130285003
The point of persuation is not to shove your point into their faces but to find a paradox in their own stand.
People who think they have a self consistent picture of the world will not be easily influenced.
Finding inconsistencies is always the most important point when talking politics and honesty also wants you to acknoledge flaws in your on self consitensy.
Bless you anon!

>>130286009
Can you recommend a good book for spotting logical fallacies in arguments then? I feel this lets me down in most cases, as most of what they said may have been unsubstantiated bull-shit but i just didn't call them out on it..?

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>>130285794
Good advice thanks

>>130286283
>Most of what they said may have been
Most of what your average tolerance, immigration, multiculturalism liberals say IS unsubstantiated bull shit. It is tiresome but every 4 sentences you could probably find a cognitive dissonance between their opinions.

>>130286009
That's exactly what I always do, make them perceive their congnitive dissonance, works every time.

>>130286283
This may come from the fact, that in their own set of values they are not wrong.
If these people have completely different values than you, they will come of with different truths.
What you have to analyse the setup of their world view, ergo listening and find inconsitencies.
You will never change the opinion of two people with different world views with the same arguments.
This is the problem with /pol/. This echo chamber can make you think that the talking points here are generally persuasive, but they are not.

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>>130286412
>>130286527
>cognitive dissonance

To be honest, I think a lot of my debate failure comes from my in-ability to handle their aggressive attitudes. If it was a calm and reasonable discussion, I think I'd be fine. It's when they come at me aggressively in their tone and facial expression, I back down like a scared little dog! It's so beta.

>>130285086
Can someone post the of the YouTube video links of the english speaking Serbian?

>>130284353
Going to sound odd but I suggest you read Nassim Taleb's books. And also, read a lot after that. Trying to win debates on reason alone is foolhardy, a superior grasp of whatever subject you're arguing is better than simply being more 'logical'. I also suggest you study cognitive science as it relates to biases and cognitive dissonance. Check out Scott Adam's persuasion reading list. Not to use what you learn on others, but to see how others use those tricks.

Also, know the difference between dialectic and rhetoric, and learn to spot them and the kinds of people who use them most. Check out Vox Day for that.

I say all this because I went from someone who had trouble articulating his arguments to reading about complex systems, knowing when someone is suffering from cognitive dissonance, and recognizing when someone is using rhetoric and being able to expose them and make them run away. You can too.

>>130284353
The problem is you let the left frame the debate. Because you care about the truth you let them speak and try to answer them whereas they don't, just ignore the shit they come out with and stick to the core issues

>>130284353
When you feel that you're not getting your point across or losing your grip on the debate just call your opponents faggots and cucks

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>>130286664
True. Although I don't like to think of /pol/ as an echo-chamber like reddit is but I guess it is to a degree too.

I have been thinking about going through a few lefty websites and blogs to maybe understand their view better with the goal of debunking it more effectively, not just to win debates or arguments with liberals but mainly to prove it more to myself.

>>130285416

https://mega.nz/#F!0F5GXTjS!oGdz8UP5JbcleNMy6YKLvg

https://mega.nz/#F!cZoSEbpC!kdnYuLw3hvYSus9uZl6PRQ!QNAixJZL

https://mega.nz/#F!4MJE0L6Q!teKAfBlT2m3Ija-Tun-EFw

https://mega.nz/#F!pYRnSJaC!HrC3Siqyioo9PjdGMNWs3Q

https://mega.nz/#F!LotEVRxT!YE-YrG6SZ54nJqltrYN8Nw

https://mega.nz/#F!LotEVRxT!YE-YrG6SZ54nJqltrYN8Nw!TolRQJga


https://mega.nz/#F!scMFjYZY!MKTKFWGVVuA7kV4OMHgkcg!UcMA1AZb

>>130287069
/pol/ doesn't moderate you unlike leftist shitholes. Trying to 'understand the other side' is not only naive it is counter productive. Learn from the most intelligent.

I will tell everyone I can to read Nassim Taleb's books, you will come out able to crush a good 99% of leftists and neocons out there.

http://infoproc.blogspot.com/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dn4LaowsGiA

Follow Stephen Hsu for high level commentary on science but also for the ethnicity/IQ issue. You don't want to rely on Jared Taylor for that kind of shit. Just go full PhD on leftists. Nothing less really suffices but this undermines the left's reliance on tabula rasa for their equality bs. When that support falls their entire ideology comes crashing down.

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>>130284353
I think also a HUGE problem I face at any given point in these exchanges is the inevitable moments where I have to reveal my power level fully.

Like having to say "I'm anti-gay anyway so that point is of no value to me" or " I hate having refugees here anyway, so I don't care"

This is a double edged sword because it shuts down their argument but on the other hand, I look like the worst person in the world to them and I am ousted from the group.

Alot of these people I'm getting into it with are people who have been my friends for 10 years +, some of them, and I don't want to be ousted from the group, because I have nothing to fall back on except /pol/ and that isn't good enough. I'm a social creature and need a friend group to be in in real life, as I'm a musician.

>>130285069

Empathy is one of those things thats a weakness if you let it control you but control it and its a strength. Find a place of agreement with the person you're debating and then walk it into points of contention. You control the frame of the debate not them.

But leftists are retarded so the best thing to do is usually just to sarcastically trump them in their virtue signalling and get them caught in paradoxes.

>>130285086
Don't read that shit first, OP. Read the shit I told you about. Simply more useful. Especially hold off on literature. That is a luxury.

>>130287199
sounds like a must read. will look into him, promised!

>>130284353
Also don't read, it will get you in your own head and out of the present moment which is necessary for articulation.

>>130286822
He was a right-leaning guest speaker, he was invited to speak at an american or and english traditionalist conference and he discussed methodology of spreading rightwing ideology effectively. The videos were probably published around 2013.

>>130284353
ben shapiro has some videos called "how to debate x" or "how to debate a leftist and win" he is a jew but he is a good debater always btfo of anyone he debates

>>130287918
If you need a social group then you're fucked no matter how smart you are and how good you are at arguing your points. Unless you find like minded people there's simply no way to keep people as friends besides going along to get along.

>>130288276
ugh...... the black pill. Hello darkness my old friend

>>130288160
Shapiro mixes rhetoric and dialectic together which can be useful in debates but it's not good to form habits without a proper foundation.

Debating as an art unto itself is a dubious proposition. I said it earlier but there's no substitute for knowledge. You can be the best 'debater' on earth but unless you know the subject you're fucked. Relying on rhetorical skills will require bluffing and dishonesty to 'win'.

>>130284353
most people go on the defensive when you tell them they are wrong and then give them all the arguments. They will keep giving you counter arguments to make that wrong a right. Never tell anyone they are wrong. try and let them make their own conclusions by asking the right questions and be a bit suggestive with the answeres. They will think they came up with the answere and feel all smart and respected about it but you just implanted youre oppinion.

>>130284353
Need more practice and rehearsal to know your own arguments inside and out.

>>130284353
My advice is to start the debate in a calm and rational manner, not with the idea of completely destroying everyone else. When someone brings up a point that you have no counter-arguement to, then that's going to have a lot worse of an effeect if you pretended to be a know-it-all from the beginning. If you on the other hand begun the discussion calmly, and they bring this new point in, try to think about it, discuss how such a thing came to be etc. That's what discussion is about after all, sacrificing a bit of yourself and the other people's ideas in order to better understand the world.