Are taxes theft?

>>130075558
Gotta pay for those roads somehow.

>>130075607
what if I don't want roads?

>>130075558
In a multi cult nation they are. The money goes to strangers. In a monoethnic nation the money goes to family.

>>130075558
Yes.
>>130075607
Roads in early America were privately built.

>>130075558
some

a dollor taken from you that does not benefit you is stolen
IE
the money that fixes the roads and defends the country is not stolen it is used to the benefit of the payer

but any money given to those who do not chip in has been wasted thus stolen from you

>>130075558
money taken from you by force using violent coercion? sounds like theft to me

>>130075558
"Theft" is defined by the state.

>>130075558

They are theft if you leave the state who wants you to pay taxes as a protest.

If you continue to live in the state and pay the tax, you agree to the social contract that is established between state and adult citizen.

Complaining about taxes while living in the state that demands them is like telling someone you were raped after consenting.

>>130075558
Depends on the interests of those doing the collecting.

>>130075720
Services you need to consume need roads.
And no, you are not self-sufficient. You rely on roads for food. Even if they would deliver you everything against money they would just Charge you more because they are paying for taxea.

>inb4 muh drones bro

>>130076349
the entire world is claimed by different criminal organizations calling themselves the state. There's literally nowhere on Earth I can go and not be a slave on some government's plantation. Plus, as a US citizen I am required by law to pay taxes to the US government even if I live in another country. The slavery is almost inescapable.

>>130076765
Actually, the messy, unruly anarchism found in many middle eastern countries, which is at least a very de facto one, seems very appealing to me in the regard you mentioned in your post.

>>130075558
This thread.

Again.

Taxes are the price for living in a society.

>>130076690
I never asked for roads. If roads were offered voluntarily as a service, I would likely choose to contribute. But to take my money by force and spend it on something that someone else decided I need is stealing and is immoral.

>>130075558
We all know 4,000 years ago that warlords squabbled over territory so that they could tax the subjects they conquered and live like kings off them. We also know to maintain order the king had to give back some portion of the taxes in public services.

Governments function exactly the same today, they just have better PR with an army of people telling us all how good taxes are for us. But its exactly the same.

This is what Trump was talking about pointing out that DC is the richest city in the country. That's where the taxes go to be divvied up amongst the rulers.

You can never get rid of government, which means you can never get rid of predatory taxes. The most you can do is pull your head out of your ass and vote for someone who promises to limit the amount they take in exchange for voting him in. Then vote him out if he raises taxes anyway - like Bush 41.

>>130075558
id have no problem paying taxes if it went to things that i supported, hate to be contributing taxes that pay for shitty school systems that create liberals by graduation and national health care systems

>>130077037
>Taxes are the price for living in a society.

>not understanding that commies would just 100% tax everything to implement their economic system

>>130075720
Vote for an anti-road politician

no, they're involuntary contributions. it seems like america is the only country who thinks it is and that's probably due to there being so much multiculturalism there

>>130075558
a necessary evil. should be minimized.

>>130075558
if you pay voluntarily then no, otherwise yes

>>130077243
There's like 5 actual communists in this country

>>130077292
there is no evil that is necessary. that's a false dichotomy

>>130075558
No. Theft is a legal concept. The state makes the law and defines what is and what is not theft.

>>130075938
yea and if people like pigs and pizza drivers use it for commerce they should have to insure and get licenses to use our roads, and lets make rules (((THEY))) have to follow and make signs, and put them on the sides of the road. Then we'll hire people to monitor these rules and if they- break them, they have to pay fines.
cause everyone cant STOP. its fair when the rules says yo8u can GO. on a 4 way stop. ITS FAIR. no ONE should be that STUPID.
so win win everyone dont be dumb and well, share and there. ok?

>>130077159
Then feel free to leave the nation if you don't like it. I'm sure there are some nice, unclaimed icebergs for you to found your libertarian utopia on

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Private property is theft.

>>130075558
Taxes are rent.

>>130076765

And?

You could just kill yourself if it's a problem for you, apparently it isn't, seeing as you are still here. So you accept that you must pay taxes, motivation is irrelevant.

Or go live somewhere where there are no taxes like some anarchist places in Africa or Asia.

>>130075558
not all taxes are equal, but some are pretty much theft.

>>130075966
No force at all. Feel free to leave!

>>130075558
Nah, you agreed to it when you signed the Constitution, duh

>>130077529
I do accept that I am a slave, but that doesn't make slavery moral.

>>130076765
>criminal organizations calling themselves the state
Impossible. You are implying that laws preexist legal institutions. This is false. A state cannot be a criminal organization, by definition, since what is and what is not crime is defined by the state.

>>130077362
>what is a figure of speech?
some taxes are necessary to maintain society, infrastructure and social order. removing taxes would mandate the sacrifice in many cases of these things and therefore would be a poor trade.

>>130077611
you can't just pack up and leave to another country because of immigration laws. Even if you could, you'd just be trading one slavemaster for another. And as far as slavemasters go, the US government is one of the more benevolent ones

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>>130075558
Use of services without paying is theft so not paying taxes is theft.

>>130077505
who owns the earth?

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>>130077470

>>130076349
>get robbed
>give robber money
>you are now in a social contract

>>130077756
okay fair point. Criminal organization is the wrong term. But the state is a violent coercive force and is immoral by its very nature

Taxation is theft any way you look at it. I wouldn't even be against giving up some income to pay for public goods, but it's absolutely despicable the way things are done with being held at gunpoint to give a huge amount of your money to the state to pay for shit you are morally opposed to.

>>130077877
Probably the guy that collects rent for it no?

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>>130077877
The guy with the biggest gun and the will to use it.

>>130077813
you need a state to protect you from other states. it is therefore necessary to pay into the state to maintain your protection. this is a mutually beneficial relationship.

>>130078179
That's what's known as a protection racket.

I thought vehicle registration money was used for the roads

>>130075809
/thread

>>130075558
No, because everyone that lives in a nation that allows emigration is free to level to a live somewhere without taxes. So by living in a nation with taxes it is a voluntary choice and can't be theft.

>>130078219
thats how it works. dont like it? kill yourself.

>>130075558
Breathing is theft.

>>130078088
this is the right answer
>>130078081
yeah, because he's got goons to collect

>>130076765
>There's literally nowhere on Earth I can go and not be a slave on some government's plantation.
Live at sea or on the 14 million square kilometers of Antarctica.

Plus, as a US citizen I am required by law to pay taxes to the US government even if I live in another country.
Renounce your citizenship, or earn less than $250,000 and pay no taxes.

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>>130075720
TFW you get cucked by the captcha

>>130076765
It's like with business: Make your own.

>>130078248

Accountant here. All money for road maintenance goes under the "general" account for the government. As you can imagine it is always short of funding.

>>130075558

if u pay them by force : ofc.
what else would u call it, when ure moey gets extracted by threat of or real applied violece for shit u never ordered, or want ?

OFC its theft.

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>>130075558
No. not if the tax money actually goes to help you. But if it's wasted I would say it's theft, like most nations do today

>>130077037

So what's the proper amount of taxes each citizen owes? Imagine if netflix charged a % of your income instead, that's unequal as fuck.

>>130078334
exactly

>>130078219
Only when private companies do it, ancaps are pretty ok with that.

FFS, call the state McState and shut up.

Being a meanie is theft!

>>130075558
If you currently live in the US, then yes. Your tax dollars are not going into things that help you in any way. In fact, it's the opposite, your tax dollars support big businesses while trampling on little ones, your schools are crumbling, no one gives a fuck, your towns and cities and roads are getting old and decrepit, while politicians just stuff their pockets because tax dollars = money left on the table unattended.

If you have an honest government, then no, it's not theft.

>>130078559
well that's all well and good except that every square inch of land on this earth has been claimed by coercive organizations called the state. The only option left is seasteading which may be feasible one day but not today (and I assume that when it is feasible, the states will just claim ownership of the ocean as well.

>>130077802

So without taxes people would not want things?

>Not black, can't collect welfare
Taxes is theft unless i'm a disable crack baby. Only thing I benefit from society is school...Which was absolute trash in USA

If you're okay with the state's theft because they offer you services, then you should be okay if one day Monsanto gets a monopoly for 4 years and you can only buy food from them.

Why not, actually, just become communists? By that logic, the more taxes, the more services, so not even 100% tax would be theft.

>>130077802
>therefore would be a poor trade

says who ? who told u what ? where is the proof ?
i tell u : the state told u that ( idoctrination )
proff that it's the other way around u can see i the past ( where there were some almost completely derregulated / free places. america oce was also one of these. that's why america prospered i notime and became the wayyyy strongest ecoomy and surpasssed everyone and hat icredible wealth and a never seen before level of living...

but then came leftism ad with leftism came the state becoming a maligent, lifesuckig cacer, like in europe and became precisely that, what ppl origialy escaped from, to america, when it was still the lad of free ...

... :'C

>>130075720
Too bad. I'd rather have nice roads than your freedom to be a fucking idiot.

Find enough like-minded retards and you might be able to undo that.

>>130075558

I only feels like it's theft when it goes to something I'm against. I would believe it's the same way for most people despite what other arguments they have.

>>130077716

this. very well said.

>>130075558
>Are taxes theft?
Haven't got my return yet so I'd say yes

>>130078066
>the state is a violent coercive force and is immoral
The whole point of the state is that its the least "violent coercive force" your gonna get. If you live off in no government land you will be subjected to will of individuals whose primary interests involve stealing all your shit and raping your asshole.

>>130075720
people will build their own roads to participate with trade

>>130075558
Thats the wrong question. Everything except an even trade by people with equal power who will never meet again or have a continued relationship is probably theft. The question is whether or not this particular stick-up can be squared with your values.

Or, if we're going to be defeatists, if you've got enough guns to stop the mugging.

>>130075558
Only retarded ancaps think so.

>>130078734
If a nation set it's taxes at a rate required to meet it's funding obligations and evenly charged people an equal share everyone under the min tax amount would leave. This cycle of lowing population would lower the tax load but would also lower the size of the economy. In the end you would run so many people out of the nation that was was left wouldn't be able to man their own national defense.

>>130078893
Gnash your teeth then, and bemoan that you don't live in paradise. Nature is what it is, cry about it or move on and do what you can.

>>130075720
>>130075966
>>130076765
>>130077159
>>130077362
>>130077716
>>130077813
>>130078066

You are a fucking faggot.

The state is there because the people want it to be there. Because it holds the people that they don't like (criminals, unscrupulous businessmen, whatever) to account. Because it enforces the law with police officers. Because it provides hospitals and schools, and people want those things.

If you don't want to sign the implicit contract of agreeing to live by the rules of you government, then you have choices ahead of you:

a) You could choose to break your country's laws, live in an illegal manner of your choosing, and try and evade capture - or maybe just accept that you may be captured. You are still free, as a human being, to make this choice to live a criminal life if you truly wanted to.

b) You could choose to try and live "off-grid" - again away from where your government might find you. You could go and live on the Mongolian Steppe. I doubt anyone would give a shit what you do out there.

c) If you have decided that you like the geographical location where you live, but you just don't like your government, then you can fight your government. Become a politician and campaign for the government to reform. OR you could form an army, and try and topple the government. It's up to you. Of course, in either case, you must realise that the politicians who oppose you ARE REPRESENTING OTHER PEOPLE, WHO DESIRE TO HAVE THEIR INTERESTS REPRESENTED IN THE COUNTRY'S GOVERNMENT AS WELL.

You're a fucking idiot. You're only a slave because you choose to be. You could become the master if you put the effort in. Faggot.

>>130075558
Giving money to the gubmint to literally just burning money.

Don't believe me? Just look Canada, they're having fucking tax payer funded pride parades and giving assistance to women.
What the fuck?

>>130079215
>The whole point of the state is that its the least "violent coercive force" your gonna get

that's not even true. For instance, in the US more property is stolen by the state in "civil asset forfeitures" than is stolen by non-government thieves.

>>130079240
yes well then it would be voluntary and thus moral. It's the involuntary aspect of taxes which makes it immoral.

>>130079433
>Because it enforces the law with police officers.

Police don't do much to enforce the law on a grand scale and the State existed long before modern policing was even a concept. Police are about maintaining the power of the state and creating the illusion of security.

>>130078479
kek-cia niggers?

>>130079215
Kings stole way less from their people than modern governments.

They had, after all, interest in leaving a legacy behind to their children. The state is only interested in abusing the country and deplete it of resources, low time preference. That's how you get debt, inflation, etc.

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>>130075558
Taxes are indeed theft. As soon as is practicable, my plan is to move to that tax-free paradise, Somalia.

>>130079433
delicious post anon

>>130079497
And without a state how much shit do you think would be stolen?

>>130079497
Than its not stolen you dumb ass.

>>130079779
we don't know because living in a stateless society isn't an option anywhere on earth

>>130075558
I would burn that carpet.

>>130079832
Taking property without due process? I'd consider that stealing by definition, even if it's not by law.

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>>130075558
WHERE IS THE FUCKIN SAUCE FOR THAT FUCKING .jpg MY DUDE

>Nigga sauce

>>130079713
Kings were apart of a state

>>130079641
>Police don't do much to enforce the law on a grand scale and the State existed long before modern policing was even a concept.
The state has always had agents to enforce the law. For the whole of the history of human civilisation.

>Police are about maintaining the power of the state and creating the illusion of security.
Oh you're right, when a policeman arrests and imprisons a serial killer, that's just an illusion of security. I would have been much more secure if they were on the loose. Thanks for opening my eyes to The Truth™. I'm redpilled now. Loominati confirmed.

>>130075558
If you use any public services...nope

>>130080057
we don't have a choice to use non-public services because competing with the government isn't allowed.

>>130079713
>Kings stole way less from their people than modern governments

I own my land as well as my business, I'm not subject to conscription, and I can effectively avoid taxes without having to worry that someone is going to come into my home and see if I'm hiding resources.

>>130075607
>>130075720
>>130075887
>>130077159
Where does this roads meme come from?

>>130079996
Yes, you claimed the state is the least violent coercive force we can get, so how does that compute with the fact that there are successful states out there, and periods of time, where life was peaceful without as much coercive violence as most current states?

If tax is the price for society, how come some successful societies are cheaper than others that are less successful?

This would imply that, up to a point, taxes could be reduced. When you charge more than you potentially should thanks to having a monopoly, it's pretty much zero sum, ergo theft.

>>130080300
>I own my land as well as my business
no you don't. If you're paying taxes then the government owns the land. You're just renting it.

>I'm not subject to conscription
the government can change the law anytime and subject you to anything it wants so long as it's constitutional. And what's constitutional is pretty up in the air these days.

>I can effectively avoid taxes without having to worry that someone is going to come into my home and see if I'm hiding resources
If they have probable cause that you're violating the law, then yes they can. and the bar for probable cause is pretty low

>>130080300
>I own my land as well as my business

No you don't, you have usufructuary rights over them, but the state owns them.

>>130075558
Is rape sex ?

>>130075558
>Are taxes theft?
Yes. we work our ass off for those productivity yet they tax it.

they just change the name t bh, so somehow it'd make different meaning

>>130075558
All taxation is theft

>>130075558
id like to in/out/thru her midi port

>>130079433
You are not taking into consideration the fact that those who you say have a desire to have their instrests represented in the country's government only want, or are in favor of, the current government because they have been indoctrinated since birth and/or don't know any better, and your negationist attitude does is, indirectly and metaphorically speaking, harm those individuals who could be exposed to what they are being subject to if they listened to people such as the poster you just called a fucking faggot at the beginning of your post.

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>>130080704
Are you gay?

show me a feasible alternative

>>130075558
If you pay them voluntarily, then no. If you pay them under duress, then they are in fact no different from what a mugger does.

>>130076690
T. Dirty sand nigger

>>130079936
Found it on /mu/ long ago, if I recall correctly.

>>130079777
Thanks m8. Just looked at your posts and they're good too.

I think it's legitimate for people to have criticisms of the government. But people who say they are slaves, without any agency, are just idiots who don't understand why governments exist. And clearly they have not really thought about how bad their lives would be if there was no stable government. There are many countries around the world that have had their governments overthrown by the people. It happens all the time. Usually, though, this just ends up in a country that is more violent, poorer, and just generally shittier than before. A civil democratic process, founded on free and open debate, seems to produce the most peaceful, prosperous, and productive societies.

>>130080942
vote for parties that would allow for more government models within a territory. IE: implementation of private cities, maximum decentralization, etc.

That will show alternatives.

>>130081059
>There are many countries around the world that have had their governments overthrown by the people

and are immediately replaced by another government. Where has there ever been a case where a government was overthrown and the people were given freedom?

>>130080463
social contract
John Locke, Jean-Jacques Rousseau, etc
/pol/ use to be fairly educated

>>130077440
So in terms of the "redpill" you accept the cypher philosophy? Kill yourself leaf.

>>130075607
where we're going, we won't need roads

>>130075558
No. I'm fine paying for infrastructure and local services like the police or fire department. I also like being protected by a military. However I would cut all safety net programs for life losers.

>>130079433
>The state is there because the people want it to be there.
Only statist and faggots. Not everyone wants the government to steal their money to give to spics and niggers.
>Because it holds the people that they don't like
You don't need a gibberment to deal with murder and theft. Your "criminals" are also only defined by what the state says they are. It's a criminal offense in Europe to deny the holocaust and to not accept your child as a faggot in Canada because the state said so.
>Because it enforces the law with police officers
See above
>Because it provides hospitals and schools, and people want those things.
again, you don't need a fucking government for those.
>You could choose to break your country's laws
Then they kill you or take your children for trivial rules you didn't want to be apart of in the first place.
>You could choose to try and live "off-grid"
>If you don't like being robbed, just run away
>then you can fight your government.
That's the plan.

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>>130080463

>>130081521
*life losers or niggers.
Have to amend that. I may be a libertarian, but I still have my roots to keep safe.

>>130080049
Agents of the law are not modern police. Most crimes people are arrested for aren't things like serial murder. This isn't a conspiracy, its not even done behind closed doors. There isn't a police force in the US that spends more on detective than it does on revenue generating patrolmen and there isn't a force in the world which responds to white collar crime the way it does to a small riot.

>>130080623
You're right on most counts. The state can't seize specialized skills or training and you can't conscript someone who isn't going. Fuck that, I've rolled those dice before.

>>130075558
Taxes are charged in return for using the government's services/facilities/infrastructure/etc; they're basically fees. Since fees are avoidable, it's not theft.

I spent a good portion of my life avoiding paying taxes; income taxes, sales taxes, property taxes, gas taxes, etc. I paid none of them. It wasn't always legal nor was it particularly easy, but it was far from impossible.

Now, my desire for cheapness is outweighed by my desire for convenience, so I voluntarily pay taxes.

That's what taxes are at the end of the day, voluntary.

It's when taxes are charged with absolutely no pretext (eg: literally being taxed for being alive) that it becomes theft.

>>130075809
What someone does with your money after acquiring it doesn't determine whether it's theft. Theft is determined by the manner in which they acquire it.

>don't mind me just taxing this car

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>>130075558
No more than renting an apartment or a toll road is.

>>130075558
Taxes are not theft.
By owning property, you are voluntarily agreeing to pay property tax.
By purchasing goods and services that have excise taxes, you are voluntarily agreeing to pay the tax.
By selling your labor in the country that you are working in, you are voluntarily agreeing to pay income taxes.
In other words: all taxes are voluntary as it is.

>>130075558
Income taxes are.
Excise taxes on marketable goods, and tariffs on imports are not.

>>130081689
>Theft is determined by the manner in which they acquire it.
and the method in which governments acquire taxes is violent coercion. i.e. theft

>>130081059
>>130081267
The problem of violence is that it never ends. Governments that were overthrown would immediately be replaced because the people overthrowing them are only interested in revenge, in applying to their rivals the same oppression that was applied to them.

This is why we need to delegitimize violence completely. set clear moral limits, and that requires a peaceful end of democracy.

>>130081793
Renting is voluntary, and nobody has a monopoly on rent.

If there was only one corporation owning all the houses in a country, and nobody could compete because the corporation would kill them, then yeah, it would be the same.

>>130075720
Then live in a rusted shack with the rest of the third world monkeys, you fucking commie.

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Come on OP what kind of doll is that

high taxes that goes to politicians who doesnt wanna represent the best interest of their people is theft

taxes is otherwise cooperation amongst people who wish to have a state

>>130080877
>le indoctrinated from birth meme xD
This isn't an argument. Y'know, there's so many people who use this indoctrination "argument". ISIS say that we're indoctrinated. We say that they're indoctrinated. Liberals will say conservatives are indoctrinated. And conservatives will say liberals are indoctrinated.

It's a non-argument. It is a claim made by stupid people who don't have an argument. If you had an argument, then you would make it. "You've been indoctrinated" is essentially ad hominem. You are not engaging with the reasoning of why somebody believes what they believe. You are not presenting your own reasoned response of why you think they are wrong. You are being *irrational*.

>your negationist attitude does is, indirectly and metaphorically speaking, harm those individuals who could be exposed to what they are being subject to if they listened to people such as the poster you just called a fucking faggot at the beginning of your post.
This is utter garbage. And you are just as much of an idiot as he is.

Tell me exactly how it's going to benefit these people to tell them that they are "slaves" to the government (which is just an attitude by the way, and an absurd one, since we live in democracies where we can vote for who takes power)?

What are they going to do? Rise up and overthrow the government? And then what happens? Just live in anarchy? You might want to look at a country like Liberia, where the government is not very effective at all. The country is lawless: thugs and criminals hold power over the common working people. It is a violent game for survival and power.

Do you think the people of your country or my country would desire that for their land? Well, if you think they do, then BY ALL MEANS spread your message and tell the people of your country that they are slaves to the government and that they should overthrow them. Go on! See what happens! (contd. in next post...)

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>>130081019
Do you remember any details of its origin my anglo?

~MD
616

>>130081922
Honestly income tax and estate tax are the only two I have a problem with.

>>130082396
No, I do not, really. I do believe it is of some kind of trap-qt DJ idolized on said board, though.

>>130078479
get a pass

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>>130075558
yes

>>130082245
>You might want to look at a country like Liberia, where the government is not very effective at all. The country is lawless: thugs and criminals hold power over the common working people. It is a violent game for survival and power.

Liberia is like that because the country is entirely black, not because there is no government.

>>130082467
Income taxes are good. No one pays the estate tax.

>>130081892
>By owning property, you are voluntarily agreeing to pay property tax.
Property Tax and Estate Tax are theft. Paying for services and infrastructure are not.

>>130080877
>>130082245
(contd.)
See if your people truly agree with you and would wish to join your crusade to abolish the government and live in anarchy.

If they do, and you succeed, then SOMEBODY will take control of the country. Whether it's a warlord, a dictator, a paramilitary group, or perhaps a democratically-minded politician (in which case you're then back to the very situation that you rebelled against).

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>>130077877

>>130075558
The oxygen you breathe is the result of theft

>>130075558
Yes, but so is private property.

>>130082653

Thank you for that. I promptly removed that pic from my fap folder

>>130075558
I take the different approach.

I believe estate taxes are valid as a measure to prevent oligarchy but not as they exist now because....

Income tax, property tax are stealing.

Sales taxes are fine as well if income tax does not exist. Pay for what you use is reasonable to me, because you are choosing to go that route. Sales tax is still Kinda iffy to me but as bad as income tax.

>>130081267
>and are immediately replaced by another government.
That's exactly my point, you idiot. There will always be SOMEBODY who takes power, whether it's a dictator, warlord, or a democratically-appointed politician.

>Where has there ever been a case where a government was overthrown and the people were given freedom?
Again, this is exactly my point. You are the one who seems to believe that life would be fantastic without a government. So why don't you show me a nation that has no effective government which isn't a complete shithole run by criminal gangs?

>>130082012
>peaceful end of democracy.
What the fuck are you talking about? What do you want to replace democracy with? Autocracy? What the fuck are you on about?

>>130083210
>What do you want to replace democracy with?

Private property.

>>130082803
How is it theft?
When you purchase property or real estate that you know is subject to tax, you are voluntarily agreeing to pay for that tax when you purchase it. Therefore it isn't theft.

>>130075558
Taxes I don't agree to are theft, taxes supposedly used "for me" or "my neighbors" that are used in a completely different region is also theft (unless I agree to pay them).

>>130082817
>If they do, and you succeed, then SOMEBODY will take control of the country. Whether it's a warlord, a dictator, a paramilitary group, or perhaps a democratically-minded politician (in which case you're then back to the very situation that you rebelled against).

it doesn't have to be that way. If people accepted the principles of voluntarism then anyone who tried to gain control would be exiled from the society. But we're taught statism from birth which is why most people just blindly accept it. Perhaps it's human nature to desire someone to rule over them, but I don't think it has to be like that. If like-minded people who reject statism were allowed to form a nation, then I believe it could work. But we're not allowed to even attempt it because the entire earth is claimed by governments.

anyway, doesn't change the fact that taking property using violent coercion (aka taxes) is theft.

>>130081553
>Only statist and faggots. Not everyone wants the government to steal their money to give to spics and niggers.
Then grow a pair of balls and stop paying your taxes you fucking faggot. Become a criminal, move to somewhere the government won't find you, do whatever the fuck you like. You are whinging like a pathetic tumblr feminist who says she's enslaved by the patriarchy. Grow some balls you pathetic sack of shit.

>you don't need a fucking government for those.
Show me a country that has ever provided good schools and hospitals that didn't have an effective government. Go on, I'll wait.

>then you can fight your government.
>That's the plan.
Then do it you pathetic chode. Stop whinging about it like a dickless faggot.

I pretend that all my taxes pay for nigger abortions. So I'm fine with that

I probably killed 10000 nigger babies.

All taxation is theft until the government legalizes weed

>>130075558
Or is theft taxes..? Really makes you think.

>>130083816
no, taxes are a subset of theft

>>130083622
I want a picture of me next to a dumpster filled with 10000 nigger abortion babies.

>>130083461
What happens when you buy or sell property and evade the taxes?

>>130081685
>Agents of the law are not modern police.
They are the same fucking thing.

>There isn't a police force in the US that spends more on detective than it does on revenue generating patrolmen
How exactly to "patrolmen" (by which I assume you mean cops in the street) generate revenue?

>there isn't a force in the world which responds to white collar crime the way it does to a small riot.
Right because Bernie Madoff got off scot free didn't he? Oh wait. He did. So not only is this claim of yours highly questionable, but I don't even see what the point of it is. The police respond to all crimes, you idiot.

>>130082817
Why must anybody take control of the country? What exactly is so bad about empirical, ideological, utopic freedom in coexistance with nature and all its life forms? I am not trying to advocate for the state being overthrown or abolished from the get go, but its role and influence could slowly be reduced up to the point when it is at a negligible minimum. It would work if everyone tried to make it work. The only reason why it does not is because those who are in power now can not get enough of it, and will keep being greedy until someone stops them in their tracks and see humans and society for what it really is; the former being just another animal, and the latter a non-existant man-made construct. Excuse my grammar/spelling mistakes in my posts, I am really tired and refuse to double-check them at the moment.

>>130082817
The state 100 years ago was in average 80% smaller than it is today in western countries. Life wasn't chaos.

Let's say we entertained the idea that without the state there would be chaos, ergo we need taxes. Would that mean that any number above what is required to avoid chaos is undesirable?

If so you're a pragmatic minarchist.

>>130083950
Since you engaged in a contract and broke then rules of the contract, you are subject to enforcement of the contract.

>>130082797
The American colonies and Australia were very lawless before they established their governments.

You are an utter moron.

>>130083361
Enjoy having all your shit stolen by whoever feels like taking it.

Well-represented taxes that fund necessary developments and general stability are fair and reasonable.

Taxes that are used by (((Senators))) to go on free vacations and buy $40 breakfasts and bailout shitty banks that don't fire the upper management are actual theft.

>>130075607
So it is theft? Because I can go outside right now and trip over 11 potholes before I reach the end of the block.

>>130083566
Show me a country where this has ever happened, or I will continue to place an-cap retardedness in the "utter morons who believe in ridiculous utopian fantasies that have never existed and will never exist" bin.

Taxes aren't theft.

Yes.
/thread

>>130075558

Yes.

Here is a question to those of you who may know. What stops the government from simply printing money and then enacting price controls when inflation happens? We no longer use currency backed by or made from precious metals, so surely the mass issuing of money should not have as big of an impact, especially if inflation is controlled?

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>>130084655
Or not.

Anyway, you think that because I don't think the state should offer security that means I don't think there should be security?

I don't want the state to provide food, doesn't mean I don't want people to eat.

>>130083950
In essence, when you evade taxes, you are breaking a fundemental agreement of the exchange in which you obtained the property, and therefore are violating the NAP, and the government can use force to enforce the NAP.

>>130084655
there's nothing preventing security services in the absence of government. Voluntarists aren't against having protection.

what we object to is having money taken from us by force to fund a security service which we may not even approve of, one which is often excessively aggressive, one which takes property without due process (civil asset forfeiture). In a voluntary society, a security service which did those things would be put out of business and replaced with a better one. But in a statist society we are forced to pay for it and competition is not allowed.

>>130085111
Nap was broken when a monopoly on contractual enforcement was established by violence, therefore it would not be aggression, but appropriate response to violence. Nap is not pacifism.

>>130084127
>The only reason why it does not is because those who are in power now can not get enough of it
Welcome to the world, enjoy your stay

>>130084534
>Life wasn't chaos.
Sure, it was just rampant crime, murdering, theft, extortion, slavery, rape, servitude instead. Total paradise.

No I'm not a fucking minarchist you cunt, don't put your disgusting ideological garbage on me. Go fuck yourself.

>>130075558
Daily reminder that this is a 13 year old girl

>>130075558
Only to the extent that hierarchical workplace structures are slave labor

>>130085499
>Sure, it was just rampant crime, murdering, theft, extortion, slavery, rape, servitude instead. Total paradise.

No it wasn't. I'd rather live in 1900's chicago than in today's chicago.

>No I'm not a fucking minarchist you cunt, don't put your disgusting ideological garbage on me. Go fuck yourself.

Not an argument. Respond to what you were asked or get the fuck out back to leftypol where your echo-chamber formed ideas won't be challenged.

>>130085353
For one, one particular government does not have a monopoly on contractual enforcment, there are many governments in the world.
For two, it is far from obvious whether or not the government used violence to create its monopoly, or if it instead used violence in retaliation to protect itself (and as a consequence became more powerful), and its members/citizens, from violence.

>>130084798
wouldnt be any potholes if there werent any roads

>>130077037
For anybody who doubts the usefulness of the new flags this post proves that all kekistans are open redditors

>>130085499
>Welcome to the world, enjoy your stay
I very much did not realize this now, nor recently, but what you doing with your sarcasm is basically agree with what I said in my post, so thanks.

>>130076349
That was a retarded argument. Nigger level.

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>>130085036
Yeah good luck champ, you'll probably survive all of five minutes before a bigger gang or a bigger army with bigger guns come and take your shit.

Why are you not moving to Liberia? It is exactly the ancap paradise that you seek. You defend your personal property by whatever physical means you desire - guns, whatever. It's exactly what you're looking for!

>>130081982
If this were true, it'd be impossible to live in a country without being forced to pay taxes.

The government only goes after people if they use their services/facilities/infrastructure/etc, without paying the associated fees. Just think about it. If you live on someone else's property and use their resources against their will, without compensating them, then you are the one who has committed theft. To retrieve one's own property from someone who has stolen it is not theft.

That's basically how it is with the government. You don't have to pay them if you don't use their stuff. And if you use their stuff without paying their fees, then they are entitled to seek the monetary equivalent of what you've taken from them.

I was technically stealing from the government for years, and neither violence nor the threat of violence was ever used against me. Even now, when I lie on my tax returns, the worst I'll get is an audit that shows I owe money.

Them requesting that I pay the associated fees for the services I'm using is not the same as theft.

>>130075558
An inordinate amount of taxation is closer to slavery than theft. A small amount of taxes are fine, O.P.

>>130085353
In fact, it is surprisingly difficult to think of a situation within even the last several centuries, where the American government responded with violence against someone that wasn't violating the NAP. I'm open to examples, but even the most recent case of standoffs for federal land are clearly a violation of the NAP by the people protesting.

>>130085157
>what we object to is having money taken from us by force to fund a security service which we may not even approve of
Then do one of the following things:

1) Stop paying your taxes and move somewhere where no one will come for you. A very rural area, out in the sticks, would probably be your best bet.

OR

2) Lobby the government so that your taxes are spent in ways that you DO approve of

OR

3) Move to Liberia, where every contract is effectively voluntarily, and everything is effectively provided for by private enterprise, since the government has very little effective power. It's a free market haven!

>>130085901
>For one, one particular government does not have a monopoly on contractual enforcment

Over a vast amount of territory, they do, yeah. And with violence, don't forget.

Any private territorial monopoly with such magnitude would be the target of all social media cries.

>For two, it is far from obvious whether or not the government used violence to create its monopoly, or if it instead used violence in retaliation to protect itself (and as a consequence became more powerful), and its members/citizens, from violence.

I disagree, it is quite obvious. Otherwise the state would only have a monopoly in violence.

>>130086427
If every time someone says "idaho" I break his skull, there will be a point where I don't need to break any more skulls to prevent people from saying "idaho".

Ultimate consequences for rejecting the state's monopoly on violence are what they are, death.

>>130075558
>Are taxes theft?
No. They're how we keep the peace, make sure there is land to build homes on, and provide necessary public services.

The problem is graft and aggrieved minorities.

>>130077877
(((They))) do

>>130084929
Pretty sure you are just going to fuck yourself over globally. And since most of the things in your country are imported, its not a good thing.

>>130078088
Remember what happened to the USSR? Same thing currently being done to us.

>>130086712
>Ultimate consequences for rejecting the state's monopoly on violence are what they are, death.
One can have a monopoly on violence without violating the NAP. I would argue that is the case with the American government. Any violence used by the US government is justified because the opposing party was violating the NAP.
Not to mention the government uses things like rule of law to ensure it doesn't punish innocent people (people that didn't break the NAP).

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>>130085813
Yes it factually was

>1900s chicago
Enjoy getting shot and robbed by gangsters

If you had the balls to "walk the walk" of your theories, you would move to Liberia - but you are a dickless whinging chode like all lolbertarians.

Libertards are the male equivalent of tumblr feminists. Instead of "the patriarchy" it's "the gubbermint". Haha.

>Not an argument. Respond to what you were asked or get the fuck out back to leftypol where your echo-chamber formed ideas won't be challenged.
Wow you really have got your little pink panties in a twist haven't you?

>>130086136
No I'm not, but keep believing in your delusional fantasies like all lolbertarians do.

>>130075558

Aaron Russo interview with IRS chief is enlightening. I say yes

Some taxes are theft, like income tax.

Others, like consumer tax, are not.

>>130075607
This. And I also want my socialized healthcare, to make sure it's mostly fairly distributed.

>>130086811
Good post sir.

>>130075558
>Are taxes theft?
How the hell you will have stuff and ALSO a state without taxes?

The only way I can think of is if the state create some kind of kickstarter where the state create projects and people give money to stuff they want.
Wait, now thinking about it kickstart style would need to be forced to work, BUT at least you would avoid the problem of your taxes going to a place/project/thing you don't want.

>>130085617
[citation needed]

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>>130076765
Don't work - get free shit?

>>130075558
Yar.

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>>130086260
>Yeah good luck champ, you'll probably survive all of five minutes before a bigger gang or a bigger army with bigger guns come and take your shit.

Are you sure? I could, along with other peaceful individuals, decide to pool in X money so our army and guns are bigger, or at least big enough to prevent attack.

>Why are you not moving to Liberia?

Because Liberia is a sub 80 IQ country that has been in perpetual state of war for decades. Up until war broke, it was quite socialist., so no, the state wasn't brought by a lack of taxes.

>>130087309
>Yes it factually was

Not by any measurable index. See this picture? This is facts, not the BS you spew.

>Wow you really have got your little pink panties in a twist haven't you?

A lefty brainlet unable to answer simple questions and form simple arguments, retorting to dumbass mockery. This is the level of statists.

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>>130075558
I don't care about that. How do I get naked Asians playing drum machines into my life?

That depends on who collects and what it's used for. If they take your money and use it for selfish interests or just give it to niggers, then yes. If it goes towards things you would use like healthcare, and yes, roads and bridges it's not unless it's like a lot of money.

So yes, you're probably being ripped the fuck off.

>>130082245
........then no one is indoctrinated........?

>>130087432
Then why did you not refute anything of what I said? I said it in one of my earlier posts, and I will say it again: you are a contrarian negationist.

>>130086712
>>130085353
I should also add that such logic is what Nozick uses.
There is one fatal issue with it though: it violates the principle of locality.
If we were to accept this, you are thus arguing that ethics cannot be ascertained by the immediate considerations of a transaction/agreement but the integrity of (pardon my use of cryptocurrency jargon) the whole blockchain throughout human history.
This is unreasonable because it suggests that parties today may be responsible, and punishable by deeds their ancestors made years ago (e.g. pay reparations whitey). Frankly there is some information we don't even have, so we can never be sure if a transaction between human beings is ever ethical, and therefore insofaras there is uncertainty, we ought not look at the blockchain's integrity.
The only other alternative is really to embrace determinism and a lack of free will (in which a free market cannot exist, period). Or in otherwords, the problems become more metaphysical rather than ethical at this point.
Therefore, if we are to have a free market, we must only deal with the immediate ethical considerations of the transactions, which treat the previous parts of the blockchain as a blackbox.

>>130078873
There's definitely a problem with the way money is spent. There's also a problem with taxing income instead of things like imports and wealth.

No taxes is a pipe dream outside any system but communism. Grow up.

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>>130087866
It doesn't matter what it is used for. If someone takes your money by force then it is theft.

>>130075558
if my money is taken and used or aide specific people or specific groups of people, it is theft. taxation used to better the whole community rather than part of it is not. taxation to maintain infrastructure, police, defense military, education (not state run propaganda for children) and a legal system are the only taxes that can be ethically levied against a people.

if it doesnt help me i should not have to pay for it.
>tfw no minarchist flag

>>130075558
Taxes are not theft, but the magnitude of taxes is. There should not be taxation for anything other than police, fire department and basic health care (not for shit like obesity) and education. We are currently overtaxed so the government can do shit like bail out big corporations and waste money on foreign aid.

Inflation orchestraed by collusion between the central banks is the real theft.

>>130087241
>One can have a monopoly on violence without violating the NAP
Only if that monopoly is based on voluntary contractual obligations subjected to third party arbitration.

Otherwise there will always be a certain amount of coercion involved.

>Not to mention the government uses things like rule of law to ensure it doesn't punish innocent people (people that didn't break the NAP).

That would be alright if they weren't the ones establishing the law.

>>130075558
It's theft if you do not have the voluntary option it opt out, and they come after you with threat of violence. Legally, I can't make an exchange of goods of services in this country without the government mafia taking their cut. They will take my home that I am paying hundreds of thousands of dollars for and leave my family homeless if I don't pay their property tax. We are slave serfs being allowed to exist on their land. It's slavery and theft. And the insane thing is nutbag moron marxists want to EXPAND taxes and government power.

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>>130075607

>>130075607
The only money used for roads is taxes paid on gas. Income tax on the other hand is theft. The money I make through working get taken out of my check and handed to some lazy fucker instead.

The way I see it, taxes aren't theft if the government isn't corrupt. You are forced to pay a part of your income for the good of your country, that is to say, you have to contribute to society and not be a selfish prick. But if the government is corrupt and your money will just serve the higher echelons then it's basically just theft.

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>>130075720

>>130088253
I see your point but you're making a strawman.

I'm not speaking about arbitrary, generic reparations for a race, I'm talking about individuals being able to demonstrate that the current ownership of someone over something is not legitimate, and that he has a better claim.

>>130075558
If it is for something you would object your money going to it is.

>>130079240
>people will build their own roads to participate with trade

There will be very damn little of that without government.

>>130079641

stops me for chimping out so theirs that you faggot

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No, taxes are not theft.
>hurr, why do I have to pay the bank a fee every time I make a withdrawal? It's MY money
The very use of money as an insured, regulated currency is a service rendered to you by the state. You have to pay for it, just like you do for every other service.
Don't want to pay bank fees? Opt out and go cash-only. Don't want to pay taxes? Don't use money. If I paint your roof and you fix my car, no taxes will be required, as long as no money changes hands. If you use money, the state manufactures, regulates and guarantees the value of that paper, and therefore deserves a fee.

>>130088253
Anyway, got to go to bed, will check archive tomorrow for responses, at least your posts are in my opinion well directed and challenging. Cheers.

>>130087793
>Are you sure? I could, along with other peaceful individuals, decide to pool in X money so our army and guns are bigger
Wow, a bit like the Department of Defence then?

>A lefty brainlet unable to answer simple questions and form simple arguments, retorting to dumbass mockery. This is the level of statists.
You haven't made a single "argument" that I haven't destroyed.

>>130088167
Labels aren't an argument. Try making an argument, if you have the brain cells to do so.

>>130077802
but muh roads and muh "social security" allows for the creation of a never ending police state.

Very little goes to the infrastructure beyond the immediate needs to placate the masses.

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I made this so you can handily tell the difference between Lolbertarians and SJWs

>>130075558
not if you use public services paid for by taxes, which you do

>>130089981
and infrastructure

>>130089821
I am the decedent of my free countryman who completely wrecked your country in open war.

In my country, the premise was supposed to be are no kings and queens.

If it pleases the crown.

>>130089688
Here, I will just copy paste all my previous arguments that you graciously ignored in favor of useless sarcasm:

Why must anybody take control of the country? What exactly is so bad about empirical, ideological, utopic freedom in coexistance with nature and all its life forms? I am not trying to advocate for the state being overthrown or abolished from the get go, but its role and influence could slowly be reduced up to the point when it is at a negligible minimum. It would work if everyone tried to make it work. The only reason why it does not is because those who are in power now can not get enough of it, and will keep being greedy until someone stops them in their tracks and see humans and society for what they really are; the former being just another animal, and the latter a non-existant man-made construct.

>>130075558
No

For the idea of a minarchist government - that is the minimum sized government with essential structures you would need to tax to afford Judges, Prisons with staff, police officers, roads and infrastructures, military & perhaps a few other things

>>130075558
No. Pay your fucking taxes. Its the one thing you can do that proves your not a nigger animal.

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>>130075558

good goy

>>130087570
>The only way I can think of is if the state create some kind of kickstarter.....

You could have lotery too, but it dont generate enought money for a state

>>130075558
i want an mpc so bad

>>130090091
I pay a gas bill so the gas company can maintain the gas lines
I pay an electric bill so the electric company can maintain the power lines
I pay a water bill so the water company can maintain the water lines

All of these things are separate "charges" on my bill listed as maintenance.
So tell me, why do I also need to pay taxes on these things?
Why do the aforementioned companies also have to pay taxes on the same things?
Where does the government actually step in and provide any sort of assistance?

In order to pay these bills, I have a job. Every cent I make gets taxed both federally and locally.

So, I get taxed for earning money then I turn around and get taxed for spending money. Also, the people who pay me get taxed, and the people I pay get taxed. The only thing I have to show for it are a bunch of incompetent morons who live off the money made through taxes, pay less % in taxes than I do and beg for handouts to help with their next election. They never accomplish anything aside from obstructing anything from happening. But the keep promising "free stuff" in order to stay elected.

The only people benefiting from this system are those elected and the lazy scum who think "free" anything actually exists.

>>130075558

Theft implies you had something to begin with.

The money is not yours. The (((banks))) can change their definition of money willfully. Are taxes the price for living in society? No, because "price" implies you have a choice whether or not you want to get something in exchange for money.

Taxes are a kind of insurance, except that you have no choice whether or not to pay them, and if something goes wrong, it is unlikely that any of that money spent is going to be used to help you. More like you will have to spend even more money to avoid prison.

>>130087861
I need answers.

>>130075607
What are private owned roads with tolls,why should i pay for roads i don't use ?

>>130092494
Travel to Asia.

>>130075558

Only if you haven't entered society.

When you choose to enter society, that is one of the compromises you make towards the betterment of said society.