Criticizing Marxism

>>128269032
>Americans have to read a book to know communism is bad
You guys don't get taught this stuff in school?

Marxism is a corrupt putrid ideology that destroys human nature by converting man into needy babies that can't do anything for themselves.
Only National """Socialism""" has ever worked.

>>128269154
>You guys don't get taught this stuff in school?
Well, no. Our education system is a mess, particularly in Los Angeles, and politics have been meddling rather aggressively in the education of our youth since 1980, if not longer. The brainwashing is even worse in our universities. When I was in high school we were primarily briefed on the horrors of Nazi Germany, but very little time was spent on Soviet Russia and I can't remember a single mention of Mao Zedong.

>>128269154
Quit it with the banter for like 5 seconds.
In the west Communism is normalized (((For Some Reason))). Schools almost never talk about the implications of Communism and how they fucked up society but they sure do love to talk about how the big bad white colonialists ruled the world and took everything from the poor minorities :(

File: 1483333245221.jpg (52KB, 500x312px) Image search: [Google]

52KB, 500x312px

>>128269032
Dude, the Communist manifesto is third most read book on the US college campuses.
They don't even know there were purges, starving and millions of dead.

>>128269683
Yes, I'm currently on the second chapter of The Gulag Archipelago and the author has detailed what he calls "waves" of arrests/executions. I of course imagine my friend would argue that this was a product of Stalin and his secret police, and not of communism itself.

Marx himself said in an interview with an English newspaper that a Socialist revolution would by necessity have to be bloody (his word).

Bloodshed is inherent to Marxism s stated by Marx himself. Violent oppression and mass murder is not Socialism done wrong. Socialism is wrong.

File: 1482820162692.jpg (210KB, 719x1024px) Image search: [Google]

210KB, 719x1024px

>>128269032
The reason why there is always so many dead is because when a socialist cocksuckers tell people to redistribute shit and seize the means of production, overwhelming majority of people tells him to eat shit and kill himself. I work in heavy industry and you would almost never find anyone who wants to bother with the means of production after their shift ends. Most people want to sell their labor, and don't want to bother with maintenance and all the shit that is around the proper working of machinery.
Thus the only way to instate the socialism is the way Stalin and Mao did it, with totalitarian control.

Press your scum of a friend on how he wants to install the socialism, and don't let him to dodge and toss the word salad around, as socialists always do, demand that he describes specifics.

Then shoot him to the back of his head, to make the world a better place.

>>128269032
I did a long time ago, you should read Chekhov's "The Island of Sakhalin" too. Let's be honest, Russia was a fucked up place before commies.

As for Marxism, there is no need to overthink this, it's mostly a Jewish rhethorical trick to blame whites for everything wrong in the world and explain how they should give power to kikes.

It doesn't need to be debunked, you just need to remind people making those arguments are those that have had institutional power for 40 years, they're not the oppressed by any standard, they're the oppressors.

File: iycyws2.jpg (81KB, 543x960px) Image search: [Google]

81KB, 543x960px

>>128270014

>>128270450
> As for Marxism, there is no need to overthink this, it's mostly a Jewish rhethorical trick to blame whites for everything wrong in the world and explain how they should give power to kikes.
> 30% of NKVD chasteners were kikes
> need more poweru!

>>128269032
Well my thoughts are this. The closer a country moves towards capitalism, they start to see the benefits and become more prosperous. If socialism produced wealth and happiness too, then the same should be true. The closer you move towards socialism, a nation should get more prosperous. However this is demonstrably false as evidenced by multiple nations, including China and the USSR. So even if we accept that 'full socialism hasn't been tried', that does not negate the argument that it has been attempted and as those nations approached socialism, they did not see anything other than chaos and poverty.

>>128270266
Thank you nii-san for your honorable statement. Admittedly I am not as privy to nature of Marxism, its principles, as I should be to refute it. In fact the depths of my understand for it are more or less seize the means of production.

>>128270805
Well that is a pretty valid argument, and I will definitely utilize it. I suspect he'll put forth some notion that USSR and China were moving only laterally toward "proper" socialism, and that is the cause for the massive poverty and loss of life.

File: 1494871387352.png (198KB, 793x4000px) Image search: [Google]

198KB, 793x4000px

>>128270561

File: 1493619274437.png (2MB, 1082x1524px) Image search: [Google]

2MB, 1082x1524px

>>128269032
>socialism
its shit
>marxism
you can debate for me it's more philosophy than actual science

It is an exhausting book to read. I have to stop regularly to handle it's intensity.
I have always enjoyed some sadism but for the first time reading the second volume I am no longer sure I can entertain myself with the suffering of others. It never seemed to be a moral question before. Now it seems like stabbing myself in the face.
>half a kilo
>half a kilo

>>128269032
>done wrong
>not muh real socialism/communism

It doesn't matter what you do you'll never win. The rules of their game are

>try communism
>did it work?
>no: wasn't real communism
>yes: real communism

So every failure is attributed to anything but their shit ideology. Also funny is that those advocating for it are actually those who think that "it would've worked if only I had been in charge, if only I had been grand leader I could have made it work". These people think they are miles ahead of Castro, they think Kim ll sung was a fool and they could do better. Beware of these people OP. These are the type of people who would send you to the gulags you read about without a second thought should they ever reach power.

Also bonus question for your mate; right now we have a shit version of capitalism in most countries; government intervention, cronyism etc. This mutated form of capitalism has somehow still created the best living standards known to man, where his biggest issue is dying from abundance. How is it that when someone tries capitalism and fails we end up with MRI machines, f35s and iPhones and when someone tries socialism and fails we get mass starvation and gulags?

>>128269154
>You guys don't get taught this stuff in school?

Of course not, the schools are run by communists

>>128271260
Yeah I'm having a hard time digesting the sheer density of the horrors it details, and it's almost comical for me how ridiculously, ludicrously vile the conduct of the Soviet's secret police and leaders were, to a bizarrely overt degree.

File: uncle Nelson.png (52KB, 600x600px) Image search: [Google]

52KB, 600x600px

>>128269032
lol!
Don't read A. Soljenitsin. He is liar and phantasyst. Also, Soljenitsin can be translated to eanglish as liar. If you want real hardcore true about prison colonies, you must read Varlaam Shalamov, and yo must read criticism to Soljenitsin.
Also, marxism and comunism, has many weak points this is clear.
Stalin was Red Emperror. This is heresy in eyes of classicists.
I think, marxism and communism is too rdical.
Social-democracy without multiculturalism and without nationalism - good chhoice.

>>128270362
>there are people out there who believe they can seize all the means of production and have it run as efficiently as before while removing nearly all the incentive

Karl Marx was an autist who hadn't the slightest clue about human nature. A single conversation with another person would have been enough for him to realize that his dumb shit would never work outside of a totalitarian state that is all controlling and all powerful. Hell one that was that and ran off forced labor camps even collapsed. Even with forced labor camps where you can work people to death it still cannot sustain itself. Fucking pure autism

>>128271365

Which is why if Communism is taught in the public schools at all it's to present Communists as harmless victims of "Red scares", McCarthyism, "anti-immigrant hysteria" and so on.

File: 1491079993075.jpg (18KB, 308x297px) Image search: [Google]

18KB, 308x297px

>>128271313
>Also bonus question for your mate; right now we have a shit version of capitalism in most countries; government intervention, cronyism etc. This mutated form of capitalism has somehow still created the best living standards known to man, where his biggest issue is dying from abundance. How is it that when someone tries capitalism and fails we end up with MRI machines, f35s and iPhones and when someone tries socialism and fails we get mass starvation and gulags?

Holy fuck.

Yeah I was kind of cooking up something like this after a previous Anon made a remark about how societies that approach capitalism tend to thrive and societies that approach socialism tend to spiral into poverty and death.

>>128271607

Solzhenitsyn named specific names, times, and places and sourced as much as he could, including the writings of Shalamov you mention. If he had been making anything up, there were many people mentioned in the books who could have defended their reputations (rather than just lamely accusing him of lying).

>>128271260
Halfway through, if he wasn't such a nice writer I would have stopped long ago. Hearing people lined up and forced to dig into frozen ground and then fill it back up and stand idle in the summer only to later dig it again in the winter until death is just too much

File: 1488490566406.jpg (30KB, 720x405px) Image search: [Google]

30KB, 720x405px

I have collected a shitload of arguments against communism, completely destroying its very foundations from all kinds of views. Economically, psychologically, ethically, etc etc. Upon closer inspection literally all of communist """theory""" is a complete failure and simply disgusting.

The problem however is that the typical communist will outright ignore and deny these facts. You can come up with so many perfect refutations, yet they will do everything to keep up their insane belief. They are irrational and amoral beings, psychologically close to women than to humans. You cannot reach them through means of discourse.

File: ussr_terrain_1974.jpg (384KB, 1576x1101px) Image search: [Google]

384KB, 1576x1101px

>>128269032

Absolutely amazing book - I've read it several times - but really has nothing to do with criticizing "Marxism" whatsoever.

>>128269032
>questioning the notion that a "properly done" socialist nation would remain under benevolent and effective rulership for a very long time.
What other nations have remained under benevolent and effective rulership for a very long time, and how?

>>128272027

Marxism inevitably leads to slavery and famine. Prove me wrong.

>>128271983
Would you care to share any of your arguments? I'd like to at least be able to defend myself from an intellectual standpoint when I do condemn socialism.

File: braize gabidalizm!.jpg (313KB, 1382x1644px) Image search: [Google]

313KB, 1382x1644px

>>128270805
>The closer a country moves towards capitalism, they start to see the benefits and become more prosperous. If socialism produced wealth and happiness too, then the same should be true. The closer you move towards socialism, a nation should get more prosperous. However this is demonstrably false as evidenced by multiple nations, including China and the USSR.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

*inhales*

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

oh boy, thanks for the laughs, you really made my day!

File: IMG_7629.jpg (293KB, 733x419px) Image search: [Google]

293KB, 733x419px

>>128269032

it wasnt so much marxist ideology as judeofascism

>>128272068
Well that's precisely my point. If communism works only under long term, benevolent, effective rulership, and such a thing does not exist, communism isn't exactly feasible, right?

File: Oil_rocks_Soviet_stamp_4086b.jpg (46KB, 300x416px) Image search: [Google]

46KB, 300x416px

>>128272072

Why would I even try? Marxism is an interesting idea but communism is a failed ideology that, like you said, leads to slavery and famine.

Nevertheless, that's not what the book is really about.

>>128272153

What followed Communism in the USSR wasn't some kind of free-market paradise but rampant cronyism (made possible by powerful politicians) and a continuation of the Soviet Union's pervasive corruption.

>>128272153
Stats from the time of the USSR are demonstrably false, as was any outbound or inbound data collected by the "State".

>>128271607
>Don't read A. Soljenitsin
Into the oven you go bydlo.

>>128272210
If there can't be benevolent, effective rulership, then what's the point of the state, the society, or any hierarchical organization?

>>128272305

Marxism in practice inevitably leads to Communism, whatever tweaks and modifications are implemented along the way. The ideology itself is inherently violent, something Marx doesn't even bother to hide.

File: Bolsheviks.jpg (89KB, 600x450px) Image search: [Google]

89KB, 600x450px

>>128269154
It's very interesting how fear of Communism or Marxism is seen as outdated or silly, whilst fear of Nazism is still being exploited as a political boogeyman everywhere.

>>128271646
It's kind of sad that we no longer have the USSR around anymore, it would have served as a great example. Make do with Venezuela; government has seized means of production, price controls, ""free"" stuff etc. socialist paradise. I heard they broke into the zoos and ate flamingos recently from how hungry they are. A country with the worlds largest oil reserves has people dying in the streets and dumpster diving because of socialism. Fucking atrocious.


Another thing; people say all sorts of shit but in the end they make the most important choice with their feet. You have hundreds of fuckers in the US saying how great Cuba is. Documentary after documentary about how good their healthcare is and all that. Don't look at what these people say, look where they go. After filming do they stay? Or do they return to America? Do people in Miami make little rafts and attempt a perilous journey across dangerous waters to land in Cuba or is it the other way around? Were people jumping from West to east in Berlin? All commies talk but in the end never listen to what they say, simply look what they do. They stay put in their comfy capitalist countries. They sip their champagne and browse the Internet on their MacBooks. These people may praise Marxism and communism but ask your friend if tomorrow a communist utopia matching his description popped up if he would go or would he stay in the evil crony capitalist society he lives in now. You know the answer. He knows the answer. We all do and that's why you shouldn't bother arguing, because when it comes down to the crunch he won't go and plow the fields with the proletariat he thinks he is a part of

File: Natural_Population_Growth_of_Russia.png (41KB, 922x603px) Image search: [Google]

41KB, 922x603px

>>128272153
Have a real graph.

>>128271260
We get told about the lampshades all the time, yet the horrors of Siberia and the Gulags are used as jokes.
If they are ever talked about at all.

WHY?

>>128272514
Well for one I have roads to drive on, and I'm not 100% certain those roads would be there without the state. I've also never been beheaded by religious extremists but I've also never had to personally defend myself from them so I call that a luxury.

>>128272520

Marxism doesn't need to be practiced, though, it's mainly a theory about analyzing human history and society through the lens of economics and class which makes a lot of sense as long as it's not applied too zealously and too universally.

Communism is just evil totalitarian shit like Nazism.

>>128269032
>I'm not really sure how to refute this point
By not going there in the first place? Criticizing socialism in general via "hurr durr Stalin and Mao" is an extremely weak form of argumentation.

You criticize an ideology by having a strong ideological foundation yourself. Read Friedman and Hayek and so forth.

>>128272590

A lot of Canadians in particular are utterly delusional about Cuba. They go on holiday there, are taken around by Communist tour guides who rattle off propaganda that the tourist believes uncritically, they get great food and drink inaccessible to the average Cuban, and maybe they get to fuck a prostitute who is moonlighting from her job as a doctor. And you can't point out anything bad about Cuba without them immediately trying to change the subject to how horrible the US is.

File: Hammer_sickle_clean.png (12KB, 400x400px) Image search: [Google]

12KB, 400x400px

Capitalism has killed more people in history than communism by far. The conquest of colonialism and imperialism is almost always directly related to the expansion of profit. This does not even account for the millions of preventable deaths caused by corporate/ expansion each year

>>128272745
>I'm not 100% certain those roads would be there without the state.

Even the Native Americans made trails. It's not hard.

>>128269032
And your friend knows how to do socialism "right?"

Sorry, your friend would end up disappeared by someone perfectly happy to do socialism "wrong."

>>128272795
I'd like to hear more from you if you don't mind?

>Marxists believe that once communism has been achieved the all powerful and all controlling state will simply dissolve as its purpose has been achieved

Lmfaoooooooooooooo
These guys actually think that once communism has been achieved the Cheka will simply stop their limousine rides, check out of their nice hotels and go and plow the fields alongside the common man. They actually think this behemoth of power will somehow decide one day to drop dead and relinquish all within its grasp. Not only do they believe this, they also think that without the oppressive state to enforce the rules humans will continue to operate as before. The think that humans now free from the nkvd gun at the back of their head will not plow the field a bit longer and trade their neighbor for some of his stuff. That they won't begin to trade and market their goods and services leading to a free market of exchange: capitalism

>>128272855
From what? The economic and population growth ratio is so ridiculously high. What in the hell would you consider a "Death by Capitalism"

>>128272855
>Capitalism has killed more people in history than communism by far

Not even close. Colonialism's death toll has been vastly exaggerated by the Left and the supposed "millions of deaths" due to corporate activity (if you mean things like pollution, the real number is much lower) is easily offset by the increases in lifespan and decreases in mortality due to the huge rise in standard of living brought about by modern industrialized society.

>>128272970
Meanwhile glorious capitalism burns down your fields and lets you starve to death if GMO seeds manage to float to them from the nearby field and you don't have the money to pay for breach of intellectual property.

>>128272935
Well you could argue from the economic calculation problem, and how planned economies lead to capital consumption. Like how soviet economy could only lead to the accumulation of shortages through their production matrices system, and how in the absence of entrepreneurship nothing could fix that.

>>128273261

How is that "capitalism"? It sounds more like an all-powerful State bullying the people on behalf of their private-sector cronies, in which the solution isn't to give the State even more power.

>>128269032
That book is a collection of insipid fucking pap. A twisted lie book at best, read actual verified Soviet archived data, you know, 2-5 million inmates at its pea, not gorillion billions, you aimless sheep fuck.

>>128273365
Oh I see, real capitalism has never been tried.

>>128273329
Well, evidently my knowledge of how society and economics even works is very hollow since most of that more or less floats over my head.

>>128269209

>Only National """Socialism""" has ever worked.

Apart from the fact that it only lasted 12 years.

File: 1478104152809.jpg (13KB, 267x309px) Image search: [Google]

13KB, 267x309px

>>128269032

What they mean when they say 'Russia under Stalin was socialism done wrong' is that they assume they would be the better leader. If they were the dictator, they'd have done socialism correctly. This is obviously not true, as the mere sight of absolute power gets some desperate enough to murder each other. It's why Trotsky got icepicked and so many other revolutionaries got executed. Even if your friend was sure that he'd be the one to do it flawlessly, there are plenty of people under or to the side of him willing to murder him so that they could be in power themselves.

As to my feelings... I feel commies deserve to be lured onto a plane with a sign on it that says "Free Drugs" and to be then dropped off somewhere in the middle of the ocean, high on drugs.

>>128272831
Read The Wilder Shores of Marx. It's the travels of a doctor before the collapse of the Soviet Union to 5 different communist countries. He's a wonderful writer and he details just how on the rails all this was is amazing. His chapter on North Korea where he slips in amongst a bunch of young communist eager to see utopia was amazing. He details how this department store is nothing more than a Potemkin village, fake shoppers, no one buying anything, people walking in and out in circles yet these communists are too enthralled by what they see to see beneath. Those Canadians are too amazed by the scenery to realise people are selling their daughters for sex in that country. It's a short book and a PDF is probably easy to find, id suggest OP read it as well.

Also his remarks regarding cubas literacy were quite humorous. As we hear always about cubas healthcare we also hear about their amazing literacy rates. Yet a quick tour of their libraries shows nothing to read except some revolutionaries diaries and poetry. Imaging being literate but having nothing but the works of Castro volumes 1-10 to read forever. Funny and sad

>>128272563
Really rotates my almonds

>>128273368
>not gorillion billions,

Strawman alert. Solzhenitsyn estimated 15 million prisoners tops over the Gulag's entire existence, which you'd know if you'd actually read his fucking book instead of shitting all over it just because you're sad you were born too late to be a Soviet serf.

>>128273441
>Oh I see, real capitalism has never been tried.

An all-powerful State is incompatible with "capitalism" no matter whose interests it serves, period. The problem is always the amount of power that politicians have, because without that how can a corporation possibly fuck you over?

>>128273493
And in those twelve years I wonder how happy the people living there were. Oh yeah that's right. They were having a 12 year party.

>>128269032
>>128272795

If he thinks he's any better just ask him how he would enforce the distribution of wealth WITHOUT him being in power. He'll probably say mobs but thats up to you to refute. The conversation is moot anyway because the great "exploitation of labor" is almost dead now, if you aren't an engineer you can't "own the means of production", and then you need to higher an engineer to upkeep the machine, and owning it means nothing at that point. Any engineer worth his salt would tell you he doesn't want to actually own the thing he created, and would probably just want to keep on creating more. The ideology is fucked beyond recognition, and in the Service Based economy we have now, it is beyond retarded.

>>128273441
IT hasn't, this crony version you see before you has somehow still ended with you communicating over the Internet with a person on the other side of the world. Shit ain't perfect but every alternative is horrific

>>128273441
Well it seems flawed capitalism leads to burning fields and flawed communism leads to millions of people dying so I have a general idea of which one I'd rather try.

>>128273483
Don't debate when you yourself have so much more to learn. Google the authors frenchy mentioned. Order some books. It takes time

>>128272767
>Nazism
>evil
for you, polish jew

>>128269435
This
Every ((((revolution))) is glorified
They theadhed us how cool the French revolution was against le ebil monarchy, whereas the (revultionary) terror that no monarchy came ever close too was just briefly passed by with the evaluation alas "freedumbz has a price , duh"

They tought us how the Russian revolution was all le oppressed masses rebelling against the ebil monarchy (again) , omitting the fact it was a literal terror people of a certain (((people))) , that blew up government buildings, killed state officials and massacred "collaborates" , that resulted in the deaths of 20million Christian white Russia in the name of Atheism ,led by exclusively by a certain (((people)))

It was never propagated communism is good, but implied that every instance of destruction of the established values, culture and "wrong thinking" people is good when it's in the name struggle of freedumbz n rights n shit , which is what the radical libshit left is claiming to do

>>128273851
Well that was definitely my motivation for making this thread and reading The Gulag Archipelago, to delve into a deeper understanding of what the fuck I believe for some reason so I can properly defend or condemn it.

I'm already in the process of collating works based on his recommendations though it's a lot of ground to cover so I imagine you're right, it does take time.

Took me 3 months the read and it shook me like an earthquake. Tanks running over children, soldiers bayonetting old women to death, prisoners forced to work in the forests at night, many freezing to death, female guards tormenting men by stomping on their testicles. Article 58 of the Soviet penal code essentially gave the authorities the freedom to arrest whoever they wanted. And holy fuck did they. Solzhenitsyn's relentlessly bitter-satirical tone throughout the work makes it even more moving.
WHY NO MOVIES ON THIS!!!????

>>128273483

The basic point to remember is that you can't have centralized economic control without centralized political control, and when there's centralized political control there will inevitably be a vast apparatus of surveillance, enforcement and punishment to make sure that every citizen sticks to the economic plan. That is why Communism always ends up with secret police, gulags, famines, no freedom of speech or movement, etc. It's trying to turn people into mere units of production and this is impossible without great brutality.

File: 1470860553570.jpg (91KB, 960x925px) Image search: [Google]

91KB, 960x925px

>>128272129
The core concept of comunism is "class struggle" (in German "Klassenkampf", properly translated actually "fight between classes"). It means arbitrarily and artificially dividing society into two "classes" (e.g. "workers vs bourgeoise", "antifascists vs fascists", "minorities vs whites", "oppressed genders vs cis hetero males") and spreading the illusion that these classes have to be archenemies, and that the only way to achieve "justice" would be for one class to completely eliminate the other one through means of a violent "revolution". This is flawed in at least three ways:

1. This classification is an unnatural and anti-intellectual oversimplification. It denies the smooth nature of a spectrum of all kinds of people, positions, opinions. It denies the huge diversity and complexity of society, instead replacing it with an "us vs them" mentality and an atmosphere of mistrust and contempt.

2. It is essentially a revival of tribalist/racist modes of thinking, taken to an extreme. In marxist ideology a human being is fully reduced to its "class". All individuality is to be ignored. You are told to hate and not to cooperate with "class enemies". The decision on whether a person will be attacked is solely based on his class affiliation and is not mitigated by knowledge of his personal traits, achievements or anything else unrelated to class. Marxism thus is a dehumanizing ideology.

3. Marxism actively makes compromise or peaceful agreement impossible. It preaches polarization, hatred and intolerance. The normal method of dealing with perceived injustice would be to bargain and to ask for understanding in order to achieve change through peaceful negotiations. Marxism excludes this route and condemns it. According to Marx and his followers the only acceptable path is the one of killing the other class in a "revolution".

>>128271763
i think, you can different hystorical romance and hystorical sciense article.
Soljenitsin published his "memories" in 1950-1960.
Chrooschev lead company to total destalinisation. Soljenitsin aggrovate horrors of
repressive system.
I can't send all sources, because system recognise as spam.
1)lurkmore.to/%D0%90%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%BA%D1%81%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B4%D1%80_%D0%A1%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%B6%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%86%D1%8B%D0%BD

>>128274035
Go read the wilder shores of Marx. A simple easy light read that doesn't hit you with philosophical reading, it's just the observations of a brilliant writer as he travels from Romania/Cuba/Vietnam/Albania/North Korea. The stuff he recounts will stay with you and as you learn more and more about these ideologies and their means of control the things he saw will come to make more sense than the simple oddities and sometimes horrors you saw them as before

File: CV-YediUEAAywib.jpg (13KB, 236x236px) Image search: [Google]

13KB, 236x236px

>>128269032
>The Gulag Archipelago
>Historical fiction
thats cute. next time you gonna came back with
>Hey polyaks i just read book about king arthur he was our guy etq.

>>128274272
Yes, I already added it to my list.

>>128272795
Do you have anything a bit more... entry-level? I feel like a lot of the concepts in such reading would be hard to grasp without some basic understanding of what principles are being discussed.

>>128273775

I'm not sure capitalism is something that you "try". Capitalism came to us from observing ourselves, and was not thought up by some mastermind.

>>128273683
So now that we understand that every system leads to corruption by sociopaths, why is a system that focuses on a single measure of success (money) and is set up to benefit people with the sociopathic mindset, better than a system that allows for multiple measures of success (culture, art, spirituality, intellectual pursuits, crafts, humanitarianism, etc) and is set up to benefit a regular, decent person?

What is the endgame of capitalism if not China's Sesame system?

>>128273806
>>Well it seems flawed capitalism leads to burning fields and flawed communism leads to millions of people dying
How many people in the colonized capitalist countries that imperialist capitalist countries have outsourced their underclass to, so they don't have to look at them in their own countries, die from capitalism? Every 5 years, the death toll is equal to the greatest estimate of the entire historical death toll of communism. Look it up.

>>128273775
>this crony version you see before you has somehow still ended with you communicating over the Internet with a person on the other side of the world
Funny how my country's computer industry suddenly vanished with glorious capitalism.

>>128274141
>That is why Communism always ends up with secret police, gulags, famines, no freedom of speech or movement, etc. It's trying to turn people into mere units of production
Meanwhile, capitalism brainwashes them to accept this as good.

>>128274307

The Stalinist suckups are starting to crawl out of the woodwork, as they do on every Solzhenitsyn thread.

>>128274537
>Every 5 years, the death toll is equal to the greatest estimate of the entire historical death toll of communism. Look it up.
Well, I'd be more convinced if you presented me with the facts, you clearly know where to find them and I don't so you could go ahead and show me?

>>128274418
The Road to Serfdom by Hayek is a classic and perfectly readable.

>>128271763
Another one
http://www.badnameofrussia.ru/Solzhenicyn-Aleksandr1.php
Sorry, but you need use translator.

File: commune.jpg (59KB, 324x498px) Image search: [Google]

59KB, 324x498px

>>128272855

>r. The conquest of colonialism and imperialism is almost always directly related to the expansion of profit.

yfw the word salad is real.

>profit is evil

>all human expansion is evil

>making a better life for yourself and your family? evil

>attributing all effects of human expansion to the "evils" of capitalism

Americans giving indigenous natives smallpox is a far cry from shooting people in the head because they didn't agree with a communist regime.

For every corporate expansion with "millions of preventable deaths" people work for that corporation which probably improved and created millions of lives. Capitalism drives technology like nothing else can. People want to innovate to get ahead, not to get a shiny participation trophy from a communist government.

Technology has cured more ills in society than any ideology and it is the child of capitalism, not communism.

Go back to your starbucks in Portland so you can get after your unshaven antifa open relationship crotch that hasn't showered in weeks with all your cuckbuddies. Pic related.

>>128274627
i bet you are some ukranian spawn.
came back home so i could gass you like grandpa Stalin used to.

>>128274674
I'm going to start with this one right now, thank you very much my French cousin. Actually you've made quite a compelling point in reminding me of the flaws of the argument re: Stalin being representative of the faults of communism. I never would've even considered that, or at least coming to that conclusion would've taken me a very long time. I think you set me on a very positive course.

>>128274674
Do that before reading The constitution of Liberty, that one is a tad heavier and will work better once you have read more in general.

Basic Economics by Sowell is a very nice book to understand the simple basics of how the stuff works. Speaks in a nice voice and there's not a single graph or chart in the book. A simple understanding of economics would go a long way into understand just why this stuff doesn't work.

>>128272464
Soljenitsin = Green Elepant
> Like Soljenitsin
> Call others BYDLO
> Send other to oven
> Has no contraversion
Hi, poekhavshij, is it youi?

>>128274926
Will do. I was beginning to hit a road block considering how this argument with my friend would play out, and I was constantly berated with the notion that I just can't articulate an argument because I don't know shit. I think knowing what the fuck I'm talking about would, in a lot of ways, dissuade me from even wanting to argue. If I am confident in my understanding I don't really feel the need to try and correct someone else who I think is lacking in their own.

>>128274729
rofl can u make me vatrushka? thax

>>128274537
>So now that we understand that every system leads to corruption by sociopaths, why is a system that focuses on a single measure of success (money)

If you're describing capitalism, most people work to make money, but only a subset of those people believe that the money defines their success -- the rest of us just want to earn enough to spend our free time pursuing our interests, which would not be possible in a State like the USSR where even the leisure time of the people is viewed as a public resource (e.g. forcing people to go to rallies and ideological meetings).

>and is set up to benefit people with the sociopathic mindset,

I think you're describing the Gulags there better than anything else.

>better than a system that allows for multiple measures of success (culture, art, spirituality, intellectual pursuits, crafts, humanitarianism, etc)

Communism never promoted these things for themselves, only for propaganda purposes ("look, comrades, our chess players beat the decadent Americans!") You can't have real culture in conjunction with near-universal censorship, for example.

>capitalism brainwashes them to accept this as good.

No, in a society like Canada (for example) you have a choice to devote your life to making money and buying pointless shit if you want, but people will think you're a bit of a dickhead if you have no other interests in life. My own existence is quite relaxed and cultured, and that is entirely due to the fact that with relatively little effort I can follow my own path in life without having to be micro-managed by a left-wing totalitarian dictatorship.

File: Donald buys the astral plane.png (685KB, 696x800px) Image search: [Google]

685KB, 696x800px

>mfw the useful idiots are coming out of the woodwork to autistic screech
Oh boi living in fear of lefty/pol/ you guys, can't cope.
I'm sure the glorious revolution will go right this time for sure.

>>128269032

>Stalin was socialism done wrong. China under Mao was socialism done wrong.

1. Tell him he's retarded.

2. Tell him that you can't just simply apply an ideology perfectly. Life is not a fairy tale world where everything goes as planned. Each country has a different history, people, economics and power dynamics. These things vary wildly.

What your friend is advocating is that socialism is a "one size fits all" ideology that you just have to follow step by step and that it will just work.

Far from truth, this same romantic mentality is what leads these people to do terrible mistakes. The fact is that socialism HAS BEEN APPLIED over and over and over again.

Why? Because if it has never been applied, then neither has "capitalism" in "capitalist countries". That's not how it works. Ideologies are not applied completely but partially because as I said, life conditions just does not allow us to do everything as planned. The devil is in the details.

What we can be sure of is that socialism was indeed tried. And that "socialist countries" are those that applied socialist policies such as seizing the means of production, wealth redistribution, price controls, and all that crap. And they failed miserably. Over and over again.

If he can't get this shit around his head, just give up on it.

>>128275223
why rondon playing so shit lately?

>>128274820
>i bet you are some ukranian spawn.

I was born in a Scottish slum and, oddly enough, my grandfather was a Communist shipworker in Glasgow. Anyway, all your name-calling and infantile tantrums can't change history, Ivan.

>>128275118
lol!
I will bring some ham for you.

>>128269032
The "horrors" presented in Gulag Archipelago are very much kind of philosophical/existential, there is not a lot of cheap gory detail like what you get in books about the holocaust.

I don't know if someone who is a fan of marxism would feel any horror at all reading it.

I read the 500 page version not the 2000 page version though, maybe the long one has more detail of the exact horribleness of the gulags/soviets.

>>128275304

I don't watch memeball so idk.

>>128275223
>Venezuela

And you have to live with the effects of socialism every day, so you ought to know.

>>128269032
Communism is a control system.
It's Plato's republic taken to its extreme end.
Make the people think it's for them, while oppressing every free thought.

This is a fake story your friend cannot be liberal; and Marxist. No Marxist considers themselves liberal.

Under a non oppressive regime, communism can work, and it has, and still is. The problem with it is that every man have different needs, and the economic situation needs to change in order to address the different needs of different individuals. This can work in small a economy (not more than 1000 people). A large country with millions of people can't shape itself into the needs of the individuals, as there are too many of them, so it uses a general idea of what people need, and that will leave people left out of the system, and therefore they will resist, and we get oppressive regimes.
Communism offered solution to the problems capitalism has, and if you want to read about what these are, I suggest you should read 'Der Capital', where Marx identifys the problems, and 'The wealth of nations', where John Smith thinks of other solutions to these vary problems

>>128275477
Read the 2000 page version mate, its worth it even if it will pain your soul. There's not so much gore, though many people simply freeze to death crawling back in exhaustion after a day of literally pointless work shifting a rock from one place to the next, but the psychology of the gulags are horrible.
Watch Peterson lectures on them, he gives a pretty good read of what happened after one woman escaped.

>>128275117
Good luck mate.

Unlucky in that you are only just starting to read about this stuff, a wonderful opportunity has presented itself here with >>128275223. This Venezuelan can tell you the magic of socialism. He can tell you the last time he ate meat in his meal. The last time he had an chocolate bar. He can describe to you what is happening in his country as government has slowly taken over industry after industry while setting price controls and then disarming the people.

>>128275665
>Under a non oppressive regime, communism can work, and it had, and still is
There is no other kind. No it can't. It hadn't and it still isn't.

>>128269032
Ask for an example where communism has done better than capitalism in the course of human history. Point out that there isn't one and that the whole "it got hijacked by a dictator thing" is inevitable with that system.

>>128275665
>Under a non oppressive regime, communism can work, and it has, and still is.

Where?

>>128269032
I point out the idea is fucking retarded. The entire idea of giving your power as a individual to a system of bureaucrats who also seek to better their lives are somehow not going to fuck you over a barrel is retarded. We had exactly 46 attempts of countries transforming to a Communist State for the past century. Only 5 exist to this day and none of them fucking ring a god damn ounce of livability or modern.

Not to mention what the fuck do you think exactly would happen if their was a shift in the US. You think a quarter of Americans would just be willingly to give away their assets to niggers. Fuck no. You would cause a fucking civil war and let's be honest. Who you think would do better. The Communist rat who hasn't achieved shit vs. a right leaning dude who has either experienced with guns or combat.

>>128275792
Dude I live in a kibbutz, which is basically a small liberal country inside Isreal, and because its so small, it works so well

Trying to do that on a large scale is shit tho

>>128275477
I am reading the unabridged version. No, it isn't "gory" and I definitely find those holocaust recounts like lampshades or having to eat one's own shoe to be absurd.

I'm more referring to, I guess, the downright submissiveness of these people, how willing they were to submit to these abuses by the state and police, how little resistance that offered, how eagerly they condemned one another, and how ludicrously brainwashed the collaborators were. There's a part I read recently where it is recounted how, in applause for Stalin, a roomful of people persisted for over twelve minutes despite the suffering of clapping that long for fear that if any of them were the first to stop applauding, they would be arrested. Ultimately when the person who initiated the applause finally stopped and everyone followed suit, he was indeed arrested for that very reason.

>>128269154
We don't either, at least I wasn't.

I was certainly taught a lot about bad Nazis though

>>128275665
>can work

No

>different needs
I always wondered about this.

>From each according to his ability, to each according to his need
Is the communist slogan no? I always wondered what happens when one day they realize that need is a bigger liability than ability is an asset. What then? What is to happen when the state determines one is dead weight and their needs too great? Too burdensome? Because that is what will always happen. I wonder what people who chant this think when you actually follow this slogan beyond the warm feeling it gives you initially to the point where one man plows the field to feed 10 men deemed incapable by the Department of Need

>>128272855
Colonialism was driven by mercantilism, not capitalism. If anything, colonialism represents what happens when government interests are indiscernible from corporate interests (such as in a socialist society). We see this reflected in bodies such as the East India Company and the manner in which Leopold II ruled the Congo.

>>128275576
Well I don't know that he knows what Marxism really is or that he truly embraces it. When he speaks of socialism and liberal views it's mostly things like, we need to get rid of the defense budget, we need income equality, the wealthy are evil and need to be brought down, trickle down economics don't work, everyone should get free healthcare and support, etc.

He was a big time Bernie supporter, and he contends that if Bernie had won the primary, he would've curbstomped Trump.

>>128269032
This remains one of my favorite books of all time. It is worth noting the political views Solzhenitsyn held after enduring what he did and the country he chose to die in.

>>128276342
>get rid of defense
A country run by your friend would soon become part of another country and quite quickly at that

>income equality
That assumes that people are equal. I do not think I am the same man as Henry Ford. I do not think I would be able to revolutionize the car industry as he did and to expect the same income as him would be absurd.

>the wealthy are evil
???? This reeks of envy rather than actual thought.

>>128276061
Yes. Allocation of resources is a computational problem. There are different solutions, but the algorithm implemented in individualist, exchange-based economies is the only one that scales.

>>128276653
He has complete and utter disdain for the wealthy and I've never asked him why but I think I will next chance I get. I think he believes that a desire for profit is born from greed and not a desire to have a better life for yourself and people within your sphere of compassion, and that no profit can exist without someone else suffering or losing from it.

In fact I guarantee right now if I asked him why is profit inherently evil, why is being wealthy inherently wrong, he'd say something like, "Because for you to have, others must have not."

>>128276280
People were kicked out from where i lived, because they refused to work and still demanded for the kibbutz to fulfill their needs. If its small enough that everyone knows everyone, it works, because we care for one another, and if someone only cares for himself... Bye bye

File: IMG_6295.jpg (83KB, 638x498px) Image search: [Google]

83KB, 638x498px

>>128271169
>chavez

Leftypol still considers him a success? Do they use toilet paper?

>>128276846
And that is why I said what I said as a form of argument against, and for communism. Capitalism is may be the best thing we have, and it's still not good, and we all should work on improving it

>>128276904
>>128276904
He believes that wealth is a fixed pie. That to take a bigger slice is to deny someone else a share of theirs. This is a common misconception. Read that basic economics book. The world today is infinitely more wealth than the world of a long time ago. That one should have more does not mean that he is depriving others of something.

Your friend seems to think that a man who builds tables very well and has people all over come to him for his tables will get rich by stealing from others? I just don't understand. People are willlimg to trade their goods and services for this mans skill. Should he become rich off it it has been through a mutual trade. Nobody makes a deal unless they think it is worth it. You would not purchase something unless you felt it was worth the price being asked or you would simply leave.

Nightmares, this book gave me literal nightmares when I read it.

>>128276929
Ah i see. My issue is then when you have an all controlling state, this personal touch is gone. Gone is the community coming together and telling the slacker to fuck off. Goodbye community meeting and hello gulags and slave labor camps. The change in the way you deal with these people is the issue when communism is attempt in a place bigger than a kibbutz.

Kulaks deserved it.

>>128277377
Great point and hopefully it will sink in after this reading.

File: 1489572774659.png (668KB, 640x960px) Image search: [Google]

668KB, 640x960px

>>128269032
>Russia under Stalin was socialism done wrong. China under Mao was socialism done wrong
this means that your friend imagines if he was in power that he would rule correctly, not like these other fags like stalin or mao
>your friend is a possible sociopath/lunatic
even IF (and that's a big if) your friend is Jesus reincarnated and a perfect ruler, there will be someone right around the corner ready to shoot him and take power.

>>128277623
>Kulaks deserved it.

"Kulak" just meant "anti-Communist peasant". It's interesting to see how there always has to be a dehumanized class enemy on whom to blame the system's failures in every Communist society. As far-left ideology gains more influence in the West it looks as if white men will be the next target.

File: GustaveDoreParadiseLostSatanProfile.jpg (184KB, 626x710px) Image search: [Google]

184KB, 626x710px

>>128269032
Read Karl Marx's PhD thesis:

>Prometheus replied to the servant of the gods, Hermes:

>Be sure of this, I would not change my state
>Of evil fortune for your servitude.
>Better to be the servant of this rock
>Than to be faithful boy to Father Zeus.
>(Ibid.)

>Prometheus is the most eminent saint and martyr in the philosophical calendar.

i.e. Prometheus is right and the all powerful gods were wrong. This is the voice of satan who will not admit any higher power, or even wider chaos of the natural world, than what can be contained within his philosophy. It's the germ of the totalitarian spirit. A quote form Milton:

>Let us not then pursue
>By force impossible, by leave obtain'd [ 250 ]
>Unacceptable, though in Heav'n, our state
>Of splendid vassalage, but rather seek
>Our own good from our selves, and from our own
>Live to our selves, though in this vast recess,
>Free, and to none accountable, preferring [ 255 ]
>Hard liberty before the easie yoke
>Of servile Pomp.

The way of the devil can really seem heroic and beautiful but it's wrong.

>>128277576
That's the point, it does work, but on small scale, which is sad in my opinion. I think that people who live in a kibbutz are happier than the people who don't, or at least they have less to care for, because everybody comes together to care for each other, which is comforting.

>>128270362
>Then shoot him to the back of his head, to make the world a better place.

MY FUCKING SIDES

>>128278281
I see nothing wrong with this system. It is perfectly possible to do within a normal free market capitalist system as you are living proof of. I just disagree with its principles being expanded to a theatre of several million the same way you do.

Funny how in a capitalist society one can make small communist like enclaves but if the opposite were attempted there would be mass slaughter

Well thanks for a pretty decent thread /pol/ at least by my standards, mostly I just lurk but I'm very happy I made a goddamn thread to get my shit together and learn where to go next with my views and where to begin educating myself. Next time I post I'll have something better to say than complaining about my turbolib friend.

>>128275477
Yes, there were some cruel and brutal punishments meted out, like locking people in freezer cupboards but for the most part the essence of the Gulag was that it exemplified the communist ideal - a machine for living and nothing else. What kind of hell would wrapping the whole earth in that living factory really amount to?

>>128274661
www.google.com

>>128275134
>the rest of us just want to earn enough to spend our free time pursuing our interests, which would not be possible in a State like the USSR where even the leisure time of the people is viewed as a public resource
This is utter bullshit. Communist system clearly has the 8+8+8 model (8 hours of sleep, 8 hours of work, and 8 hours of free time/intellectual or spiritual enlightenment/socializing/education/hobbies/whatever). In capitalism, the free time is not only less than 8 hours, but is also colonized in many ways, which I can go into if you want.

>I think you're describing the Gulags there better than anything else.
So western workplaces are gulags. Nice.

>Communism never promoted these things for themselves, only for propaganda purposes
Do you want me to link you literature, films, music, and so on financed by the state in ex Yugoslavia? What censorship? Compare it to capitalist censorship if you want me to take you seriously.

>No, in a society like Canada
This would be the same society that will put you in jail if you accidentally call mentally ill people the wrong way?

>>128269032
communism doesnt work because it ignores human nature. it is intellectual cowardice, because rather than acknowledging and bridling the beasts that lurk within us all such as greed, fear, suspicion and turning these to our advantage as with a capitalist system, it pretends that these traits arent inside us and they eventually end up eating the system alive from the inside. in other words, it sounds good on paper because people like to believe that we can all get along. we cant. we were never meant to. some win and some lose, such is the game of life. greed creates prosperity, ironically.

>>128278722
Hope I helped. Don't get strung up about what some Bernie supporter who clearly has jealousy issues thinks. Learn the basics, understand the theories and from there you will be able to deconstruct it with ease and understand why it can or cannot work.

Read the road to serfdom simultaneously with basic economics is my final recommendation.

>>128277848
That was terrible, but "kulak"-translated as "fist", using hard expluotation of poor peasants, but them, kulaks rises prices to wheat X10, and speculates later.
http://expert.ru/2012/05/12/kulachestvo-kak-klass/

http://lawinrussia.ru/content/glavnaya-tayna-raskulachivaniya-chem-provinilis-kulaki

>>128278898
>sounds good on paper

Not even this mate. That people will somehow ignore those desires and emotions inside of them sounds absurd on even paper. Don't let the commies even have that. Tell them their idea sounds stupid on paper and is worse in practice

>>128278653
>>Funny how in a capitalist society one can make small communist like enclaves
Funny how somehow in small communist-like enclaves there's still enough money to not only finance the workings of the enclave, pay the people, and so on, but to pay taxes to the capitalist society too.

Now imagine that the capitalist society was evil and didn't want people to be happy and rule their own little enclave, so they imposed rules and regulations that the small communist enclave couldn't meet, and it caused internal strife and change of leadership until somehow someone who was paid off by said society got into power and dissolved the entire enclave, selling all its goods to the capitalist society.

Wouldn't it be funny if this happened on a larger scale.

>>128271607
This. The best way to describe Solzhenitsin is "It was real in my mind: Commie Edition". Even hardcore Russian liberals stay away from him nowadays.
Not to mention the fucker was released from GULag early and couldn't know the real horrors as the officials treated him the 'special' way for snitching at his cellmates.

>>128277848
>It's interesting to see how there always has to be a dehumanized class enemy on whom to blame the system's failures in every Communist society.
Thank G-d that in capitalist society it's the evil commies otherwise we'd end up hatespeaking :^)

>>128278935
You have my word, Ausbro.

>>128279329
This actually happened here, as you're suggesting, but we kind of passed that stage and now no one really cares about what we do, so whoever survived the "fall of the kibbutz" is generally doing good right now

File: 1494376002845.png (1MB, 960x1080px) Image search: [Google]

1MB, 960x1080px

>>128274150
Good post.

>>128276075
>There's a part I read recently where it is recounted how, in applause for Stalin, a roomful of people persisted for over twelve minutes despite the suffering of clapping that long for fear that if any of them were the first to stop applauding, they would be arrested. Ultimately when the person who initiated the applause finally stopped and everyone followed suit, he was indeed arrested for that very reason.


Wow, what a story. And the punchline, wew.

>>128276075
>>I'm more referring to, I guess, the downright submissiveness of these people


>Poll: Nearly One Third Of Americans Would Accept ‘TSA Body Cavity Search’ in Order to Fly

>Majority of Americans adults think a law making it illegal to disobey the order of a TSA agent in any public place is reasonable

>How reasonable or unreasonable do you feel it is that travelers should be made by law to obey every command given by a TSA agent inside an airport or any other public place given the threat posed by terrorists?

>A total 57% of American adults said this was “completely” or “somewhat reasonable”. A minority of 43% said passing a law that would mandate total obedience to a TSA agent was “completely” or “somewhat unreasonable”. Out of that figure, just 16% thought it was “completely unreasonable”.

You're better off to read wigan pier then

>>128282255
When Malenkov took power after Stalin, he gave a speech about how awful Stalin was to the soviets, and about all the horrors he has done. At the end he was given a note asking 'where were you when Stalin was still alive, and why didn't you say anything back then?'
Malenkov replied without asking who wrote the note: 'I was exactly where you are right now'

>>128272189
>German urban jews were "partisans sympathetic to the USSR"
Plus he presecuted the Jews way before the start of WW2, and when he was allied with Stalin

>>128276075
>I'm more referring to, I guess, the downright submissiveness of these people, how willing they were to submit to these abuses by the state and police, how little resistance that offered, how eagerly they condemned one another, and how ludicrously brainwashed the collaborators were
That's what war communism did in Russia - it broke the spine of the people, torturing and murdering them.
It was repeated after WW2 in Central Europe. You think 4 divisions of NKVD stationed in Poland for years after the war for fun?

>>128276904
>Because for you to have, others must have not
Tell your friend to cash half of his wealth and send it ot me, I'm sure I have much less than him.

>>128277377
>Nobody makes a deal unless they think it is worth it. You would not purchase something unless you felt it was worth the price being asked or you would simply leave.
Unless the state ordered you to buy the specific one. Or simply there was no alternative to shitty tables.
Pro-tip: it was exactly like this in socialist/communist countries.

>>128272563
That is not surprising at all. Fidel Castro is on record saying that if it wasn't for the involvement of New York Times, the Cuban revolution would never have a chance to succeed.

>>128278800
>8 hours of free time/intellectual or spiritual enlightenment/socializing/education/hobbies/whatever)
Hahaha, are you seriously implying you had a choice between those in communism?

>>128285816
Yes, and they were heavily subsidized or financed by the state.

For example, even in small villages, you had a library, "dom kulture" (not sure how to translate this, a cultural building basically, where even people in bumfuck nowhere had guest theater troupes performing plays like in proper cities, concerts, local music bands, and so on), now if you live anywhere but the capital your culture consists of watching and discussing 24/7 reality shows.

It was likely slightly worse in the actual Soviet bloc, so your mileage may vary. But is Americanization and McDonaldization of every aspect of culture really better?

>>128269154
>coming from britain

You guys literally aren't taught that racism and sexism is bad.

File: 1494102154930.jpg (25KB, 340x270px) Image search: [Google]

25KB, 340x270px

>>128269032
Socialism can work, but only in a homogenous society where people love their own volk and wants to help them. When you get flooded with shitskins and other filth that feeling of belonging and that desire to share a bit of what you have for the good of those who have it worse, vanishes.

Marxism on the other hand is essentially communism, no one is allowed to own more than what the government says you can own, and as such it bases itself on the idea that the government knows what's best for you and is incorruptible. Of course we know that's not the case at all, because humans are far too easy to corrupt and the immense power that marxism gives to the government ultimately will lead to the complete destruction of their own nation as we've seen so many times before.

>>128271607
>>128279414
The amount of buttblasted commie loving, Stalin apologist Russians is astonishing.
I've experienced the same visiting Russia
>Omg Stalin Daddy
>Solchenytzin is a list Reeeeeeeeee

Imerial Russia was goat
What husks of your former self you have become russkies, trough kikery (we too btw)

>>128271169
>It isnt our fault we didnt succeed, there was opposition!

>>128286824
We still have "dom kultury" institution in Poland, and now there are things people actually want to watch, and not those ordered by the state.

And you are delusional if you think that "intelectuall enlightenment" aka "political rallies" or free work for state done in your free time (czyn społeczny) were voluntary.

>>128288922
>and now there are things people actually want to watch
Unfortunately it's all NGO-paid anti-nationalist anti-human pro-LGBTQPZ+ lesbofeminist bullshit over here.

Did you not have a film industry? Proper literature? Music? The greatest cultural contributions in all fields in ex-Yu republics came from Yugoslavian times, everything after that has turned to ideological propaganda and cheap copies of western crap.

You could say that now everything is "ordered by the state", but the problem is, it's by a foreign state...

"czyn społeczny" would be "radne akcije" I think, I honestly don't know anyone who's old enough to have participated in them that doesn't remember them fondly as a time of socializing, fucking around, meeting their future wives, and so on. And the entire country still runs on the infrastructure that's been built in those times (except most of it has, once again, been sold to foreigners so they're the ones who reap the profits).

>>128269032
>Gulag Archipelago
There's way too many versions of this book on amazon.

Which is the right one/full version I would wanna buy?

File: No more of this heresy.png (1MB, 908x1078px) Image search: [Google]

1MB, 908x1078px

Cease this at once.
1488!

File: 1479097300756.jpg (98KB, 480x600px) Image search: [Google]

98KB, 480x600px

>>128270362
Based Czech

>>128277826
Prof. Peterson is that you?

>>128272153
>2000

>>128272590
Bravo. Well said, sir.

>>128273493
Well what do you expect to happen when a of 70 million simultaneously takes on France, Britain, USSR, USA and assorted others with only the meme armies of Italy and Japan as allies?

The loss of WW2 did not render false the basic facts that National Socialism was founded upon... If anything, the length and cost of the war despite such collossal odds is a strong indicator of the ideology's power.

>>128295531

He's just copying talking points word for word.

>>128269032
Jordan B Peterson (type that into youtube and prepare to be deluged) is a great enemy of cultural marxism and treats G.A. like his Bible, though come to think of it he doesn't give too many specifics that I recall. Try /lit/ if you want a better discussion, probably.

>>128298790

The nazis did relatively well during WW2 for the same reason they did relatively well during WW1. It had a huge industrial machine that could be turned to war production very easily.

>>128286824
And these institutions were so great at making our people "cultured" that as soon as they could they all started watching 24/7 reality shows.

Besides, claiming that theatre is somehow superior to television and movies is just pretentious nonsense.

>>128289791
>Did you not have a film industry? Proper literature? Music? The greatest cultural contributions in all fields in ex-Yu republics came from Yugoslavian times, everything after that has turned to ideological propaganda and cheap copies of western crap.
The only reason there was any actual quality quality movies in socialism is that, for some mysterious reason, Serbs are actually pretty good at making movies.

And I don't know if you noticed, but there was just as much, if not more western influence in music back then than there is now.

Also, radne akcije were popular for the same reason woodstock was - easy pussy. It was literally state-sponsored promiscuity.

>And the entire country still runs on the infrastructure that's been built in those times

Like what? We have the shittiest railway system in the entire EU, and the only good roads we have are the highways built 10 years ago or so.