>Catholics

>>127767978
Are the best

They are not hidding it anymore.

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>>127768222

>>127767978
go on....

>>127767978
the pope they've got right now is a satanist

It's a statue of the Resurrection you dunce.

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>>127768544
Sure

>>127767978
getting good warhammer vibes from this

>>127767978
you are mad jelly of that statue

>>127767978
>we must preserve European cul-

Reminder that if you're not Catholic you're one of (((them)))

september 23rd, be prepared

>>127767978
looks like a fucking dog skull

Omg guys it looks creepy so by default it's satanic ..

>>127769102
For what should we prepare and how?

lord horus is that you?

>tfw you are a famous artist/architect and decades later plebs still try to tell you how to do your job, even after you are already dead...

>>127767978
But Lucifer dindu nuffin you dumbass.

Bloodborne 2 is looking good so far

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>>127768270

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>>127769050
Reminder if you arent a southern baptist, you are one of (((the))).

Also,
>>127769102

last good pope

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>>127767978
>Guards with halberds and clown outfits in the 21st century

Proof that religion is nothing but a joke

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oh yea that is u lord horus bow you mortals dammit

>>127767978
quit acting like thats not the most badass throne on earth

>>127768544
it's raptor jesus, dipshit

>>127770244
That retarded logic..... that irrelevant picture... summer sure is early this year.

>>127770093
holy shit

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>>127770093

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>>127770244
>mexican culture

Catholicism is a Satanic front.

Italy is a cess-pool of demented subhumans, and that rule doesn't become exempt behind the Vatican walls.

The Vatican needs to be razed to the ground and the underground beneath it needs to be collapsed.

>>127769102
That's the feast day of St. Linus and Padre Pio. What's so special about it other than that?

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>>127767978

>Protestants

>>127770634
>>127770781
yep. designer of the monument stated it was a 666 symbol as well irrc

>>127770244
are you aware that the Swiss Guard conceal PM-5ks and short barrel Swiss STG rifles?

>>127770244
>let's remove a 516 year old cerimonial guard unit because they look funny

>>127770244
these guys are super well trained armed forces. better than italy army.

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>non september 23rd'ers

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xn_l2yS6H2o

>>127771160
okay, mary worshiper.

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>>127768539
Catholicism is luciferianism it is the whore of babylon who is drunk on the blood if saints.

>>127771160
catholics can never, and will never read the bible.

>>127770781
read some of the Rosicrucian documents

>>127770244
those are ceremonial

>>127771301
pretty much this, they have LOTS of guns.

>>127771640
whats the alternative?
also your opinion on new age 'light' worriors?

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>>127771160
>Bouguereau cucks
i'm cath but get some taste and self respect man. That shit belongs in your grandma's guest room next to the Precious Moments figurines.

>>127767978
>>127768627
trully disgusting also revealing images , that christians are a spiritual cattle for dracos/snake entities from other dimensions.

>>127767978
That statue is really fantastic artwork though.

Whatever meaning the artist intended, it's still appropriate for where it is.

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>>127772185
catholics arent christians though its a satanic deception part of the new world order beast system

only a small part of christians are true believers

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>>127771640
>catholics can never, and will never read the bible.
strong words from a man whose bible is 7 books short, heavily altered and even contains parts that were completely rewritten

>>127771962
>whats the alternative?
King James fundamentalist baptist with some gnostic gospels with a strong understanding of the Hindu, Germanic, Greek, Egyptian, and asiatic mythos.

>also your opinion on new age 'light' worriors?

the gnostic gospels in themselves make a pretty big deal about the difference between "artificial" light, and "true" light, between iluminary, and luminary, non-organic and organic light. a lot of these people will covet emotionalism as spirituality when emotions are a lie that poorly imitate a spiritual existence. i don't these people advocate for the power of prayer and meditation. mostly a bunch of larpers that don't know what is, or how to cultivate the soul, or inner gold.

>>127772561
gnostics were buttfuckers btw.
this guy wants to fuck butts.

>>127768636
>Future location for the Golden Throne
I for one welcome our new God Emperor

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>>127772486

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>>127772534
the vatican removed 14 books in 1684. and have regularly gone on to attack the bible, not only that they removed the gospel of mary magdalen, thomas, and judas. which are fundamental, and canonical books, as well as dozens of others at the council of Nicea. and there are gospels that several early church fathers have quoted from that have never been re-discovered.

martin luther also attacked personal study of the bible just like the catholic church did, even though he didn't burn mothers at the stake for teaching the bible in English.

>>127772768
In lore the Golden Throne is inside the Himalayas

>>127772486
what else they are ?
christ is the level of consciousness wich not many achieved on this planet .

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>>127772677
>gnostics were buttfuckers btw.

just like how the knights templar were Ba'al worshipers?

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guy maps out the entire end of days using google earth

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxu71hL_2D0

>>127772561
>King James fundamentalist baptist

stephen anderson and every other fundamental baptist would tell you to GTFO with your gnostic crap

>>127772853
small groups of local christians throughout time believing the bible and jesus
persecuted by catholic church

nothing to do with denominations

>>127767978
>implying its not fucking awesome

>>127773062
>everyone that is persecuted is the good guy

>>127772486
Meanwhile in Early Christianity

"Consider how contrary to the mind of God are the heterodox in regard to the grace of God which has come to us. They have no regard for charity, none for the widow, the orphan, the oppressed, none for the man in prison, the hungry or the thirsty. They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not admit that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, the flesh which suffered for our sins and which the Father, in His graciousness, raised from the dead."

"Letter to the Smyrnaeans", paragraph 6. circa 80-110 A.D.

"Come together in common, one and all without exception in charity, in one faith and in one Jesus Christ, who is of the race of David according to the flesh, the son of man, and the Son of God, so that with undivided mind you may obey the bishop and the priests, and break one Bread which is the medicine of immortality and the antidote against death, enabling us to live forever in Jesus Christ."

-"Letter to the Ephesians", paragraph 20, c. 80-110 A.D.

Protestants think he is going to hell

>>127772935
Meanwhile in Early Christianity
Irenaeus

"Those . . . who are believed to be presbyters by many, but serve their own lusts and do not place the fear of God supreme in their hearts, but conduct themselves with contempt toward others and are puffed up with the pride of holding the chief seat [Matt. 23:6] and work evil deeds in secret, saying 'No man sees us,' shall be convicted by the Word, who does not judge after outward appearance, nor looks upon the countenance, but the heart; and they shall hear those words to be found in Daniel the prophet: 'O you seed of Canaan and not of Judah, beauty has deceived you and lust perverted your heart' [Dan. 13:56]. You that have grown old in wicked days, now your sins which you have committed before have come to light, for you have pronounced false judgments and have been accustomed to condemn the innocent and to let the guilty go free, although the Lord says, 'You shall not slay the innocent and the righteous' [Dan. 13:52, citing Ex. 23:7]" (Against Heresies 4:26:3 [ca. A.D. 190]; Dan. 13 is not in the Protestant Bible).

>>127773062
thats nice, i'd crush Stephen Anderson using the king james bible on matters of reincarnation, I've watched a couple of his videos, and he speaks ignorantly of the scriptures.

I'd quote him acts 17:11, proverbs 18:13, and 1 John 4:1 and he would have no choice but to see himself if Mary Magdalen, Judas, and THomas's gospels are authentic.

>>127772935
Funny.....
Hippolytus

"What is narrated here [in the story of Susannah] happened at a later time, although it is placed at the front of the book [of Daniel], for it was a custom with the writers to narrate many things in an inverted order in their writings. . . . [W]e ought to give heed, beloved, fearing lest anyone be overtaken in any transgression and risk the loss of his soul, knowing as we do that God is the judge of all and the Word himself is the eye which nothing that is done in the world escapes. Therefore, always watchful in heart and pure in life, let us imitate Susannah" (Commentary on Daniel 6 [A.D. 204]; the story of Susannah [Dan. 13] is not in the Protestant Bible).

>>127771160
>Hmm all these countries in the world where the population is catholic...italy, argentina, brazil...

>I know, I'll go live in a country founded by puritan heretics!

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>>127770244
i'd rather not be a spic and keep tradition

>>127773062
And yet ZERO evidence for their existence

>>127769102
What did he mean by this?

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>>127772935

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>>127767978
>displaced jesus

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flat earth proves god

>>127773444
see>>127771404

>>127773367
Meanwhile in reality

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Faiths_of_the_Founding_Fathers

>>127772561
i respect that u study both , shows that u have open mind .
I follow couple youtubers, who constantly where talking about 'higher self' ,3rd,astral projection tutorials ,never knew how to evaluate them and know if they real, do u have any tips on recognising if they bullshitting?

>>127773577
There is no flat earth moron

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We need to remove these satanic heretics.

Holy war when?

>>127773622
Protestantism is bullshit

>>127773664
Destroy Proddie

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Agnostic Anon checking in, confirming objectively that Catholics are superior. I've weighed your respective worths and the Protestants come up short: intellectually, culturally, aesthetically, and priest-sexual-exploitation-of-boys-ally (new adverb).

>>127773038
also usurers as well.'

Usury and sodomy seemed to be linked sins; nations that embrace one, embrace the other.

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>>127770093

>the eucharist is only a symbol
meanwhile....
St. Justin Martyr was born a pagan but converted to Christianity after studying philosophy. He was a prolific writer and many Church scholars consider him the greatest apologist or defender of the faith from the 2nd century. He was beheaded with six of his companions some time between 163 and 167 A.D.

"This food we call the Eucharist, of which no one is allowed to partake except one who believes that the things we teach are true, and has received the washing for forgiveness of sins and for rebirth, and who lives as Christ handed down to us. For we do not receive these things as common bread or common drink; but as Jesus Christ our Savior being incarnate by God's Word took flesh and blood for our salvation, so also we have been taught that the food consecrated by the Word of prayer which comes from him, from which our flesh and blood are nourished by transformation, is the flesh and blood of that incarnate Jesus."

"First Apology", Ch. 66, inter A.D. 148-155.

>>127773479
thats nice, I'm still not protestant, i don't use the protestant bible, and I've never read "sola sciptura" and who is Erasmus of Rotterdam, Jan Huss, John Wycliffe, and John Wesley?

what is the textus receptus?

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R E D P I L L E D

>>127773664
luther and calving were exactly the same as isis
catholics had a brain

>>127771160

Catholics burn in hell, keep worshipping your nigger foot kissing pope you degenerate. Also don't forget to pray to the saints goy.

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>>127769102
for what nigga

>>127770244
>allahsnakbar charges at pope
>based swiss clean cuts his head with that halberd
hmm

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>>127773830
meanwhile in reality

>>127773943
>Jan Huss
Who also accepted venerating saints and deny sola scriptura

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>>127774192
fuck off sand nigger.

>>127774074
Funny.....

he other issue about nomina sacra debated is what the scribal practice really signifies. Probably, most scholars who have considered the phenomenon have judged that nomi na sacra reflect early Christian piety (whatever the historical relationship of this scribal practices to Jewish scribal practice), the words in question given this special treatment to set them off from the surrounding text out of reverence for what the w ords represent or designate. On this view, nomina sacra are prime evidence of earliest Christian faith and religious devotion. Indeed, I have emphasized that the four earliest and most consistently treated words ( ‘ God ’, ‘ Lord ’, ‘ Jesus ’, and ‘ Christ ’ ) vividly reflect the ‘ binitarian ’ or ‘dyadic’ shape of earliest Christian piety, particularly as the key words for Jesus (‘Jesus’ and ‘Christ’) are given the same scribal treatment as key words for God. 9 Moreover, in contrast with Jewish scribal treatment of the Tetragrammaton, it is important to note that the scribal practice of nomina sacra was purely a visual one. That is, a lthough it seems likely that ancient Jewish scribal practices with reference to the Tetragrammaton were intended to signal readers to pronounce a reverential substitute - word (typically, Adonay in Hebrew, or Kyrios in Greek), there is no indication that the use of nomina sacra in Christian manuscripts functioned to signal any equivalent action by readers. So far as we can tell, lecto rs of these early Christian manuscripts pronounced fully and explicitly the words written as nomina sacra , including the key words for God and Jesus. This is why, therefore, I emphasize that the nomina sacra registered solely as visual phenomena and could be experienced solely by those who read (or otherwise viewed?) the manuscripts in which they were written.

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>>127774050

They were right we need to remove paptists and jews.

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>arguing about interpretations of fairytales in 2017

>>127774189
>I hate the early christians
>literal red herring

>>127774393
Tell me when the early church fathers believe in the five solaes

I am waiting

https://larryhurtado.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/graphicacy-vol-essay.pdf

Protestants btfo

>>127774470
look you idiot, why don't you go try READING the BIBLE.

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>>127774077
see>>127771404

rapture of god then ww3 and great tribulation
most important time in history

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>>127773717

Death to jews and their catholic pets

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>>127774331
christ cucks worshipping sun-day god

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>>127767978

PROTESTANTS

>>127774539
Tell me when you got the early church fathers on your side

Those, therefore, who desert the preaching of the Church, call in question the knowledge of the holy Priests, not taking into consideration of how much greater consequence is a religious man, even in a private station, than a blasphemous and impudent sophist. Now, such are all the heretics, and those who imagine that they have hit upon something more beyond the truth, so that by following those things already mentioned, proceeding on their way variously, inharmoniously, and foolishly, not keeping always to the same opinions with regard to the same things, as blind men are led by the blind, they shall deservedly fall into the ditch of ignorance lying in their path, ever seeking and never finding out the truth. It behoves us, therefore, to avoid their doctrines, and to take careful heed lest we suffer any injury from them; but to flee to the Church, and be brought up in her bosom, and be nourished with the Lord’s Scriptures. For the Church has been planted as a garden in this world; therefore says the Spirit of God, 'Thou mayest freely eat from every tree of the garden' that is, Eat ye from every Scripture of the Lord; but ye shall not eat with an uplifted mind, nor touch any heretical discord." - AH, 5, 20, 2

>>127774594
Meanwhile in Early Christianity

Those, therefore, who desert the preaching of the Church, call in question the knowledge of the holy Priests, not taking into consideration of how much greater consequence is a religious man, even in a private station, than a blasphemous and impudent sophist. Now, such are all the heretics, and those who imagine that they have hit upon something more beyond the truth, so that by following those things already mentioned, proceeding on their way variously, inharmoniously, and foolishly, not keeping always to the same opinions with regard to the same things, as blind men are led by the blind, they shall deservedly fall into the ditch of ignorance lying in their path, ever seeking and never finding out the truth. It behoves us, therefore, to avoid their doctrines, and to take careful heed lest we suffer any injury from them; but to flee to the Church, and be brought up in her bosom, and be nourished with the Lord’s Scriptures. For the Church has been planted as a garden in this world; therefore says the Spirit of God, 'Thou mayest freely eat from every tree of the garden' that is, Eat ye from every Scripture of the Lord; but ye shall not eat with an uplifted mind, nor touch any heretical discord." - AH, 5, 20, 2

>The Catholic Church added seven books at Trent

meanwhile....
Cyprian

"So Daniel, too, when he was required to worship the idol Bel, which the people and the king then worshipped, in asserting the honor of his God, broke forth with full faith and freedom, saying, 'I worship nothing but the Lord my God, who created the heaven and the earth' [Dan. 14:5]" (Epistles 55:5 [A.D. 252]; Dan. 14 is not in the Protestant Bible).

Cyprian

"In Genesis [it says], 'And God tested Abraham and said to him, "Take your only son whom you love, Isaac, and go to the high land and offer him there as a burnt offering . . . "' [Gen 22:1-2] . . . Of this same thing in the Wisdom of Solomon [it says], 'Although in the sight of men they suffered torments, their hope is full of immortality . . .' [Wis. 3:4].

Of this same thing in the Maccabees [it says], 'Was not Abraham found faithful when tested, and it was reckoned to him for righteousness'" [1 Macc. 2:52; see Jas. 2:21-23] (Treatises 7:3:15 [A.D. 248]).

>>127767978
>retards worshipping an old pedophile who claims to speak for god

>>127774902
The first clear attitude to emerge on the relation between Scripture, tradition and the church was the coincidence view: that the teaching of the church, Scripture and tradition coincide. Apostolic tradition is authoritative but does not differ in content from the Scriptures. The teaching of the church is likewise authoritative but is only the proclamation of the apostolic message found in Scripture and tradition. The classical embodiment of the coincidence view is found in the writings of Irenaeus and Tertullian.

These both reject the Gnostic claims to a secret tradition supplementing Scripture. Apostolic tradition does not add to Scripture but is evidence of how it is correctly to be interpreted. This tradition is found in those churches which were founded by the apostles, who taught men whose successors teach today. These apostolic churches agree as to the content of the Christian message, in marked contrast to the variations among the heretics. It is important to note that it is the church which is the custodian of Scripture and tradition and which has the authentic apostolic message. There was no question of appealing to Scripture or tradition against the church. This is partly because the apostolic tradition was found in the church but not just for this reason: the Holy Spirit preserves the church from error and leads her into the truth. The real concern of Irenaeus and Tertullian was not with the relation between Scripture and tradition but with the identity of ecclesiastical with apostolic teaching. Any exposition of their teaching on Scripture and tradition which fails to show this is to that extent defective. (A.N.S. Lane, “Scripture, Tradition and Church: An Historical Survey”, Vox Evangelica, Volume IX – 1975, pp. 39, 40 – bold emphasis mine.)

>>127774949
Sola Scripture btfo

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satan coming down from heaven as lightning
the door closing to heaven
russia coming catholics left behind
the nuke going off in SoCal and people dying
the mark of the beast and a deception with donald trump
the great tribulation with the nwo
people in heaven with jesus shining as stars

>>127774949
Perhaps the most important aspect of the rule of faith is that it gives us what the Church conceived to be ‘the main body of truth’ (to use Irenaeus’ phrase). The Scriptures are, after all, a body of documents testifying to God’s activity towards men in Christ. They are not a rule of faith, nor a list of doctrines, nor a manual of the articles of a Christian man’s belief. In the rule of faith we have a key to what the Church thought the Scriptures came to, where it was, so to speak, that their weight fell, what was their drift. This interpretation of their drift was itself tradition, a way of handling the Scriptures, a way of living in them and being exposed to their effect, which, while not an original part of the Christian Gospel, not itself the paradosis par excellence, had been developed from the Gospel itself, from its heart, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit as an essential part of the existence of the Christian faith in history…

We cannot recognize the rule of faith as original tradition, going back by oral continuity independently of Scripture to Christ and his apostles. But we can recognize it as the tradition in which the Church was interpreting Scripture under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, and as such claim it as an essential ingredient of historical Christianity. (R.P.C. Hanson, Tradition In The Early Church, pp. 128, 129 – bold emphasis mine.)

>>127774675
Let me know when you're on the side of God and his word.

>>127774397
>year of OUR LORD 2017
check mate, atheists.

>>127771640
>Whore of Babylon
Is the Jewnited States of America

>>127775079
>Biblical bullshit 101

Perhaps the most important aspect of the rule of faith is that it gives us what the Church conceived to be ‘the main body of truth’ (to use Irenaeus’ phrase). The Scriptures are, after all, a body of documents testifying to God’s activity towards men in Christ. They are not a rule of faith, nor a list of doctrines, nor a manual of the articles of a Christian man’s belief. In the rule of faith we have a key to what the Church thought the Scriptures came to, where it was, so to speak, that their weight fell, what was their drift. This interpretation of their drift was itself tradition, a way of handling the Scriptures, a way of living in them and being exposed to their effect, which, while not an original part of the Christian Gospel, not itself the paradosis par excellence, had been developed from the Gospel itself, from its heart, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit as an essential part of the existence of the Christian faith in history…

We cannot recognize the rule of faith as original tradition, going back by oral continuity independently of Scripture to Christ and his apostles. But we can recognize it as the tradition in which the Church was interpreting Scripture under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, and as such claim it as an essential ingredient of historical Christianity. (R.P.C. Hanson, Tradition In The Early Church, pp. 128, 129 – bold emphasis mine.)

>>127775125
Proven by how history is on my side

>>127775171
Keep up the good work bong! Have you already taken Holy Orders?

>>127768215
fpbp

>>127775321

“In the ante-Nicene Church, the notion of sola Scriptura does not exist. But then there is also no notion of a tradition which is superior to Scripture, or which alters the essential content of the apostolic message as it is deposited in Scripture. There is simply no way of imagining possible conflict between the Christian Scripture and the Christian tradition—and, therefore, no necessity to choose between them.” (Albert Outler, “The Sense of Tradition in the Ante-Nicene Church”, in The Heritage of Christian Thought: Essays in Honor of Robert Lowery Calhoun, edited by Cushman and Grislis: New York, N. Y., 1965, p.29)

I just want to refute Protestantism

>>127775420
Along with total commitment to the Scriptures as the norm of all doctrine, a new and clear conviction concerning the authority of oral tradition began to develop. This oral tradition, handed down from generation to generation and going back through the apostles directly to Christ, in no way conflicted with the Scriptures. But it did aid the church in interpreting the Scriptures and particularly in summarizing the Christian faith and thus protecting Christians against the aberrations of Gnostics and heretics. To Tertullian and Irenaeus, who developed this position, such apostolic tradition, which faithfully transmitted Christ’s teaching, was, like Scripture, infallible.” (Robert D. Preus, “The View of the Bible Held by the Church: The Early Church Through Luther”, in Inerrancy, edited by Norman Geisler, Zondervan: Grand Rapids, MI, 1980, p. 359)

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>>127775420

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>>127775228
the bible clearly isn't.

>>127775154
>drunk on the blood of saints is the whore of babylon
last I checked 1 pope killed more christians than every roman emperor put together.

what's it like worshiping an Idol?

>>127775467
What was new here? Not the idea that the Bible, being God-given, speaks with God’s authority—that was common ground to both the Reformers and their opponents, and was indeed at that time an unquestioned Christian commonplace, like the doctrine of the Trinity. Nor was there anything new in the Reformer’s insistence that Bible reading is a sweet nourishing activity for Christian people. What was new was the belief, borne upon the Reformer’s by their own experience of Bible study, that Scripture can and does interpret itself to the faithful from within...From the second century on, Christians had assumed that the traditions and teachers of the church, guided by the Holy Spirit, were faithful to the biblical message, and that it was safe to equate Church doctrine with Bible truth.” (J. I. Packer, “‘Sola Scriptura’ In History and Today”, God’s Inerrant Word, ed. James Montgomery, pp. 44-45.)

>>127775554
It actually is

Deal with it

>>127775543
>Cant address citation

“Moreover, aside from these scriptural utterances, let us also consider the tradition and teaching and faith of the Catholic Church from the beginning, that which the Lord has given, the apostles preached, and the fathers [596A] guarded. This is the foundation on which the Church is established, and the one who strays form it is not a Christian and should no longer be called so…”(Athanasius, Epistola I Ad Serapion – English trans. by Khaled Anatolis, Athanasius, Routledge: London, 2004, p. 227.)

From the defender against Arianism

You know the worst one I heard, not only do the Catholics & Muslims worship the same black cube entity, it's also the final boss in the hexagonal storm on Jupiter and when you die because of their net/web you're caught, dragged to a lower plane of existence where you're actually cannibalized & raped by reptilian entities.

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>>127775615
so me in the bible where there is a queen of heaven, and that queen is mary, and further show me how mary worship isn't a form of idol worship.

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>>127775420
calvins conceptin of salvation, grace, and will is more consistent and logically coherent than the thomist position.

Catholics made a mistake when suppressing the jansenists.

>>127776137
And Protestants can't agree with each other

Last week I received in the mail the Spring 2010 (Vol. 72.1) issue of The Westminster Theological Journal. Considered by many to be the premier journal of the conservative, American, Reformed “subculture”, the essays published in this journal are from some of the best Reformed minds of our day. Of the ten essays presented in his issue of the WTJ, I thought seven of them were quite good; but one of those seven particularly impressed me: William B. Evans, “DÈJÁ VU ALL OVER AGAIN? THE CONTEMPORARY REFORMED SOTERIOLOGICAL CONTROVERSY IN HISTORICAL PERSPECTIVE”*. I will be providing some selections from this essay, followed with a few of my own reflections—from Evan’s pen we read:

Those familiar with the conservative Reformed subculture in the United States have likely noticed considerable recent debate on matters soteriological (i.e. issues having to do with the doctrine of salvation). Issues long thought settled have emerged with new vigor, new questions have emerged, and long-forgotten or even suppressed aspects of the Reformed tradition have been brought to light. For example, the doctrine of justification by faith, thought by many to be the material principle of the Reformation and a hallmark of Reformed Christianity, is now under intense discussion in a variety of circles. (Page 135)

>>127776188
It isn't

Deal with it

It is inconistent with all the Church Fathers

>>127776188
And even Reformed can't agree with each other

Last week I received in the mail the Spring 2010 (Vol. 72.1) issue of The Westminster Theological Journal. Considered by many to be the premier journal of the conservative, American, Reformed “subculture”, the essays published in this journal are from some of the best Reformed minds of our day. Of the ten essays presented in his issue of the WTJ, I thought seven of them were quite good; but one of those seven particularly impressed me: William B. Evans, “DÈJÁ VU ALL OVER AGAIN? THE CONTEMPORARY REFORMED SOTERIOLOGICAL CONTROVERSY IN HISTORICAL PERSPECTIVE”*. I will be providing some selections from this essay, followed with a few of my own reflections—from Evan’s pen we read:

Those familiar with the conservative Reformed subculture in the United States have likely noticed considerable recent debate on matters soteriological (i.e. issues having to do with the doctrine of salvation). Issues long thought settled have emerged with new vigor, new questions have emerged, and long-forgotten or even suppressed aspects of the Reformed tradition have been brought to light. For example, the doctrine of justification by faith, thought by many to be the material principle of the Reformation and a hallmark of Reformed Christianity, is now under intense discussion in a variety of circles. (Page 135)

>>127776177
Why was Paul worshipped?

>>127768627
Why don't you show me what it looks like without the lens distortion? If they aren't hiding it anymore, it should be as plain as day.

>>127776341
Reformed soteriology, particularly in America, has been anything but monolithic. (Page 135 - bold emphasis mine)

…let us begin with Calvin, who set a formal agenda for most subsequent Reformed thinking by highlighting the Pauline theme of union with Christ. Here we recall his famous statement at the beginning of Institutes 3.1.1 that the benefits of salvation remain unavailable to us as long as “Christ remains outside of us.” Note also Calvin’s insistence that it is through union and participation with the “substance” of Christ’s incarnate humanity that both the power of his deity and the forensic benefits of salvation (e.g. justification) are conveyed to the Christian. But Calvin’s view of union with Christ and soteriology in general involved a matrix of realistic, personal, and forensic categories which was never fully developed and explained. Categories such as “substance” and “participation” are ontological, while “imputation” and synthetic justification are forensic, and the Reformer never fully explained how the forensic dimension is related to Christ’s person such that to receive the former. (Page 135, 136)

>>127771160
>putting orthodox Christians under Catholicism
How retarded are you?

Catholics are non-Christian idol worshipping pagans

>>127776520
Evans’ then goes on to relate subsequent developments “made by some of Calvin’s successors who began to explore the notion of Christ’s resurrection as a forensic act”, and then that “this promising approach was soon overwhelmed by the rise of federal theology [not to be confused with Federal Vision] with its notions of extrinsic federal or legal solidarity". (Page 136)

Evans continues with:

Accompanying this was the imposition of an ordo salutis famework on the elements of soteriology, such that the forensic benefits of salvation (justification and adoption) logically and temporally preceded the transformatory benefits (sanctification and glorification). The effect of these moves was to safeguard the forensic from works righteousness, but at the expense of making the forensic rather abstract. (Page 136)

This impulse was most fully developed in the American context by the Old Princeton theologians Charles and A. A. Hodge. (Page 136)

>>127767978
the current state of the catholic church is pitiful with this pope, but at least it isn't a dead religion like protestant Christianity.

Religions (according to Jung) only work when they convey archetypes of the collective unconsciousness through symbols. Protestants think symbols are "idol worship" so they literally cucked their own spiritual power and ignited the secular revolution and thereby the eventual rise of liberalism by removing them.

Without architecture and symbols you're just being talked at by some retarded old man. You're not practicing a religion.

>>127776591
Like this guy

Chapter 13. The funeral pile is erected

This, then, was carried into effect with greater speed than it was spoken, the multitudes immediately gathering together wood and fagots out of the shops and baths; the Jews especially, according to custom, eagerly assisting them in it. And when the funeral pile was ready, Polycarp, laying aside all his garments, and loosing his girdle, sought also to take off his sandals,— a thing he was not accustomed to do, inasmuch as every one of the faithful was always eager who should first touch his skin. For, on account of his holy life, he was, even before his martyrdom, adorned with every kind of good. Immediately then they surrounded him with those substances which had been prepared for the funeral pile. But when they were about also to fix him with nails, he said, "Leave me as I am; for He that gives me strength to endure the fire, will also enable me, without your securing me by nails, to remain without moving in the pile."

>>127776646
But this federal theology paradigm provoked reactions in other directions. The New England Calvinist trajectory from the Edwardseans to Nathaniel William Taylor was convinced that federal theology was implicitly antinomian…they jettisoned all notions of imputation (both in hamartiology and soteriology) and merit, and they spoke only of a “moral union” of shared sentiment between Christ and the individual believer. Here the primary concern was genuine transformation of life, and antinomianism was seen as the great threat. (Page 137)

Another reaction is evident in the so-called Mercersburg Theology of John W. Nevin. Responding both to the forensic abstraction of federal theology and the individualistic legalism of New England Calvinism, Nevin sought to go back to Calvin by emphasizing the believer’s union with Christ, which issues in both justification and sanctification, and the way that this union with Christ is inaugurated and strengthened by the objective means of grace in the corporate life of the church. (Page 137)

>>127769102
For Autumn?

>>127776835
Later federal theology privileged justification, New England Calvinism stressed sanctification, and Mercersburg prioritized union with Christ. As we shall see, similar things are going on today. (Page 138)

Evans moves on to three modern (20th and 21st century) developments/trajectories: the first he terms, “The Biblical Theological Trajectory”; the second, “The Revisionist Wing”; and the third, “The Repristinationist Wing”.

Evans points out that the beginnings of the “The Biblical Theological Trajectory” are to be found in the works of Geerhardus Vos and his student John Murray. The ‘torch’ has been carried on by one of Murray’s students, Richard B. Gaffin, and “a variety of Gaffin’s students—Lane Tipton, Mark Garcia, Philip Ryken, the present author and others”.

>>127776591
idols are the only way religions work you dumbass. Otherwise you're just LARPing as a Christian while you idol worship consumer goods instead.

>>127767978
>are the right-hand of Jews
Yes, we know. Knights Templar handed off their fortunes to the Rothschilds. The Catholic Church has always supported Jewry even when verbally condemning their behavior. Catholics were the only Germans to vote majority against Hitler. Catholics joined with the Jews to bring about immigration acts in 1948 England and 1965 America as well as across the continent in the years between.

The Catholic Church aided and abetted the spread of communism in South and Central America and it now abets the Islamic invasion of Europe. Why would they do this when another religion is going to destroy their flock? Why else except that they are the handmaidens of Jewry?

Catholico Delenda Est.

>>127776903
Evans continues:

We also find here a dissatisfaction with certain concepts and schemas that have been taken for granted more recently by the federal theology tradition together with the sense that they have obscured rather than illuminated certain key scriptural themes. (Page 139 - bold emphasis mine)

Particular attention has been focused on the ordo salutis construction that has informed much conservative Reformed soteriology since the early seventeenth century. Gaffin and others have argued that the ordo salutis, with its logical schematizing of the various elements of salvation, obscures the unity of salvation in Jesus Christ and the centrality of the believer’s union with Christ. (Pages 139, 140 - bold emphasis mine)

I truly honestly unironically prefer Daoism to these abrahamic dick traps you guys call "religions". Philosophical Daoism with a deontological basis for society will always be better than a combination of religion & utilitarianism.

>>127776918

>idols are the only way religions work you dumbass

Are you fucking retarded? You don't need a physical object to pray to god

>>127776961
Karl Marx was inspired by Protestantism

>>127776971
Another characteristic of this trajectory is a strong emphasis on the theme of the believer’s union with Christ. Two aspects of this view of union with Christ stand out. First there is the priority of union. John Murray wrote:

Nothing is more central or basic than union and communion with Christ…

Thus union with Christ is understood as an umbrella category that is foundational to all aspects of salvation. Philip G. Ryken writes, “Union with Christ is not simply one step in salvation; it is the whole stairway on which every step is taken.” Particular attention here is focused on the relationship between union and justification, with the imputation of Christ’s righteousness viewed as in some sense consequent to spiritual union with Christ. Thus Ryken adds, “Union with Christ is logically prior to justification…” (Page 140 - bold emphasis mine)

>>127777157
According to this trajectory, Scripture teaches both forensic and synthetic justification, and it indicates that one’s eternal destiny hinges in some sense on the ongoing life of faith and obedience. (Page 141 - bold emphasis mine)

Evans then moves on to the “The Revisionist Wing” trajectory. He begins with Norman Shepherd, “who taught systematic theology at Westminster Seminary, Philadelphia, from 1963 to 1981, and then follows with “the so-called Federal Vision (FV) movement”. Evans writes:

Here we see a revisionist impulse entailing a significant recasting of the tradition. The motives evident here are several. There are deep concerns about “cheap grace,” that is, antinomian preaching of salvation apart from real transformation of life. Thus the necessity of obedience and the close connection of faith and obedience are stressed. There is also a deep ecclesial impulse here. The American revivalist tradition with its subjectivity and concern for isolated conversion experiences at the expense of the ongoing life of faith and obedience is viewed with deep suspicion, and so we see a turn toward the objective in religion, toward the churchly and sacramental. (Pages 141, 142)

>>127776137
>, not only do the Catholics & Muslims worship the same black cube entity
as do the jews who originate and justify supremacism, racism, incest and pedophilia - all you protestant weirdos hold so dear to your hearts. Be fair when making accusations.

>>127774393
>never really did anything against the Jews
>meanwhile catholic mobs and the inquisition were fucking them up daily
Guess he revealed his true colors.

>>127776994
Taoism is based, but your current society was built off of christian archetypes that are being dangerously eroded. You can't just shift the basis of your culture without destroying it, hence we need to promote christianity.

>>127777047
yes you do. Psychologically religion only works through symbols

>>127777222
Norman Shepherd must be regarded as a seminal figure here, for his thought has set an agenda for much of this group…He contends that the key scriptural covenants—the Abrahamic, the Mosaic, and the New—are conditional in that they entail both “promise and obligation.” The covenant promises are freely given, but the blessings of the covenant cannot be enjoyed apart from faith and obedience…Here we also see a rejection of the Law/Gospel distinction (which Shepherd views as “Lutheran”) in favor of a mono-covenental framework which attempts to integrate rather than separate obligation and promise.

Second, there is an expansive view of faith as including works of evangelical obedience. Shepherd never tires of declaring that the faith that saves is living, active, and obedient: “Faith produces repentance, and repentance is evident in the lifestyle of the believer. Thus, the obligation of the new covenant include not only faith and repentance, but also obedience.” Shepherd adds that this “is not the obedience of merit, but the obedience of faith. Obedience is simply faithfulness to the Lord; it is the righteousness of faith.”

>>127777328
Third, there is a rejection of what Shepherd calls a “works/merit principle” in favor of a “faith/grace principle”, and a repudiation of the notion of merit. Merit matter of just deserts. (Page 142)

Fourth, there is a focus upon the objectivity of covenant administration over against the subjectivity of personal experience. Problems of assurance result, he contends, when we look within for evidence of God’s grace. Regeneration is difficult to quantify, and even more difficult to fathom is the mystery of God’s eternal election. And so Shepherd directs believers away from subjective personal experience to baptism. (Page 143)

Evans then quotes the following from Shepherd’s, The Call of Grace: How the Covenant Illuminates Salvation and Evangelism:

But instead of looking at covenant from the perspective of regeneration, we ought to look at regeneration from the perspective of covenant. When that happens, baptism, the sign and seal of the covenant, marks the point of conversion. Baptism is the moment when we see the transition from death to life and a person is saved. (Page 143 – p. 94 in The Call of Grace - bold emphasis mine)

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>>127771404
We already knew who the Woman from Revelation is.

>>127777430
Finally, there is a corresponding de-emphasis on election and divine sovereignty. In it foregrounding of the “five points of Calvinism,” Shepherd argues that the Reformed tradition has attempted, as it were, to play God, to approach soteriology from the standpoint of infinite deity rather than finite humanity. (Page 143 - bold emphasis mine)

Evans follows the Shepherd section with a look at the “Federal Vision (FV) movement” which “may be treated more briefly, since it is in a large measure a fleshing out of Shepherd’s earlier work.”

In addition to Shepherd, we must also note the importance of the theonomic or Christian Reconstructionist movement, which seems to have provided a sizeable social network and base for the FV movement. (Pages 143, 144)

>>127767978

That sculpture is MOTHERFUCKING amazing. Really wasn't expecting to see something that original, on that scale, done by something as antiquated as the church. You can really feel the writhing and agony conveyed by the branches.

>>127777441
It is Protestantism

>>127777545
HAHAHAHAHA JUST KIDDING

>>127777319

Maybe if you're dumb as a nigger. Other people are smart enough to be capable of abstract thought

>>127770795
babyshit wrapped in brown paper

>>127777503
With regard to baptism, the trend here has been toward exceedingly high conception of baptismal efficacy. The parameters of the covenant community are defined by baptism, which both admits a person to the church and conveys saving grace (regeneration and union with Christ). (Page 144 - bold emphasis mine)

With regard to the Lord’s Supper, the emphasis is, once again, on sacramental objectivity. Because baptized children are understood to have already received initial saving grace, the practice of paedocommunion is often encouraged in FV circles. (Page 144)

Because the enjoyment of the benefits of the covenant is conditional on perseverance in faith and obedience and because of a robust doctrine of baptismal grace, considerable attention has been paid to the dynamics of perseverance and apostasy. For example, Rich Lusk has argued at length that the warnings against apostasy in the NT are real rather than hypothetical, and that it is possible for those who are genuinely united with Christ in baptism to fall from grace…Lusk posits a separate grace of perseverance given only to the elect.” [Note: Lusk’s understanding of apostasy and the grace of perseverance here is identical to that of Augustine and Aquinas.] (Pages 144, 145)

>>127777503
I wish there was a way to quantize theology. This is my current project, and it seems quite difficult yet certainly doable, since religion is to qualia what science is to matter.

There have to be mathematical laws/equations that you can apply to theological doctrine.

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>>127767978
Jews.

>>127777319
have fun in hell

>>127777686
Finally, the doctrine of justification undergoes considerable development in FV hands. Two areas stand out. First, the notion of imputation appears to be in process of eclipse. There is little talk of the imputation of Adam’s sin to his posterity, probably because such a notion of vestigial in the absence of the concept of merit. Likewise, soteriological imputation is challenge in that some of the FV figures, along with Shepherd, deny the imputation of the active obedience of Christ to the believer. Second, Leithart has also argued that justification is more than merely forensic, and that it has a transformatory dimension. (Page 145 - bold emphasis mine)

Evans’ next section describes “The Repristinationist Wing”; he begins with:

Such revisionism has sparked a strong reaction from those who wish to defend classical Reformed orthodoxy. Much of this effort has emerged from faculty members at Westminster Seminary in California…The overriding motive here is clear and laudable—safeguarding the Reformation doctrine of justification by grace through faith. (Page 145)

>>127767978
Is here where protestants get mad because they don't understand theology?

>>127777441
The corrupted catholic church

>>127777703
You cannot

Protestantism cannot agree with each other as shown by Evans' essay in a Reformed journal

>>127777835
Finally, the historical method evident in this wing needs to be noted. As the continuity of later federal orthodoxy with the earlier Reformed tradition is asserted, a certain “flattening” of the tradition ensues. The notion of historical development seems to play no substantive role here. (Page 147 - bold emphasis mine)

In the last section, “Observations”, Evans gives us a summation of his thoughts. The following are some of those “observations”:

The contours of the nineteenth-century American Reformed debates are to a significant extent repeated. (Page 147)

Churches have been torn by these debates, and extensive denominational reports have been written. (Page 147)

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>>127767978
>Catholics

>>127778079
…this controversy raises important question about the historiography of the Reformed tradition. Issues of continuity and discontinuity, of fidelity and infidelity to the tradition are persistently raised. Another way to phrase this is to raise the question of what is the “normative center” of the tradition for conservative Reformed people. (Page 148)

Second, this controversy poses important questions as to how conservative Reformed systematic theology ought to be done…Are Reformed churches defined primarily, as some today seem to argue, by adherence to confessional documents? If so, is the role of Scripture, practically speaking, simply to provide prooftexts for the confessional tradition? (Page 148 - bold emphasis mine)

…these debates are also occurring at the same time that the conservative Reformed theological tradition is no longer central to the intellectual life of American Evangelicalism, and as the conservative Reformed churches associated with the North American Presbyterian and Reformed Council (NAPARC) make up only about half a million people. (Page 150)

>>127777251
I agree with Molymeme on this, preserving the existing culture with christianity & the family/community is important when it's being attacked by another more aggressive/destructive one from overseas, although the preference would be a society that values philosophy as a gradual substitute.

That's why even as a Libertarian I've definitely started to side with the conservatives on here, individualism is great when you have a social conversation but you can't have a conversation when another culture & religion have effectively declared war on you & thrown discussion out the window for violence. So I definitely agree with what you're saying.

>>127778102
Sex abuse can be fixed without compromising or altering doctrine


When you contradict history like the Proddie, fixing bad shit aint gonna work

>>127777081
>inspired
Likud was inspired by the Third Reich. But that still leaves the Catholic Chuch as handmaidens of Jewry. There is no branch of Christianity more powerful and dedicated to the eradication of European people than the Catholics. None even close.

>>127778125
The prospect of further splintering of this group does not bode will for it. The battle lines are already drawn and the positions are hardening. One participant in these discussions has spoken of a “Reformed civil war.” (Page 150 - bold emphasis mine)

We have arrived at the end of Evans incredible essay—incredible for its clarity, content, and frankness. Evans gives the ‘outsider’ a look into the reality of one of the most vocal branches of the American conservative Christian scene, and that look raises numerous concerns for any thoughtful reader.

To Evans’ “observations”, I would like to add a few of my own. First, the trajectories mentioned by Evans that are moving beyond “classical Reformed orthodoxy” (i.e. the federal theology which developed shortly after Calvin), exhibit a return to a theology that is more Biblically and historically based. Second, those who are aggressively attempting to defend “classical Reformed orthodoxy” are in essence giving a certain priority to tradition over Scripture. And finally, the prominent leaders of these separate Reformed trajectories have at least one thing in common with each other, and with their ultimate Master (i.e. John Calvin)—arrogance. I have little doubt that this arrogant/overconfident attitude has been the primary contributing factor to new this “Reformed civil war”.

>>127775554
Meanwhile jewnited States was founded by freemasons (freemasonry already being based off jewish kabbalah), and american protestants are the biggest zionist group outside of Jews themselves.

>>127778323
Protestants led the way to destroying Europe with destroying the value of tradition and aesthetics which led rise to Post Modernism

It is also proto-communism

>>127778453
And loads of deists and secular values contra Proddie

>>127778453
More laughable deflection from the muslim boot-licking pontiff fanclub.

>>127778553
As a result of the renewed attention to Evangelical, Roman Catholic, and Greek Orthodox relations, there is increased interest among Evangelicals in the early sources of Christian doctrine and exegetical practices. This too is certainly to be welcomed, though with cautious enthusiasm, since the current reconsideration of the patristic era is not a “return the sources” (ad fontes), but governed by a very specific agenda: to read the ancient fathers through the lens of post-Reformation Protestantism in the search for criteria, such as sola scriptura, embedded within the religious consciousness of the early church. Ancient vindication of such religious ideas would presumably further the claim that Protestants, not Roman Catholics, are the upholders of true faith. Witness the recent attempts to find a “patristic principle of sola scriptura” in Irenaeus(11) or Athanasius, from which the conclusion is reached, “Sola scriptura has long been the rule of believing Christian people, even before it became necessary to use the specific terminology against later innovators who would usurp the Scriptures’ supremacy in the church.”(12) Is the principle sola scriptura historically tenable in the form which is usually defined so that the Bible is the only normative source for the Christian faith and practice? Do the writings of the early church affirm this principle? As will become apparent, the very search for such a principle in the writings of the fathers is misguided in the light of the early church’s understanding of apostolic authority. Even if one argues that a biblicism that approximates sola scriptura can be detected within the patristic age, it in no way guarantees a Christian doctrine of God or salvation. On the contrary, a scripture-only principle was found to create greater problems which have plagued Christianity ever since. ( “The Search for Sola Scriptura in the Early Church”, Interpretation vol. 52.4 (October 1998) pp. 355, 356.)

>>127771160
protestant are the jews good goy like the muslim

>>127778706
Notes:

(11) T. Nettles, “One Holy, Catholic, Apostolic Church,” Roman Catholicism: Evangelical Protestants Analyze What Divides and Unites Us, ed. J. Armstrong (Chicago: Moody, 1995) 40. Nettles seems oblivious to the crucial distinction between written and oral authority in Irenaeus when he says, “The Scripture is that which is ‘handed down,’ that is, tradition.”

(12) J. White, “Sola scriptura and the Early Church,” in Kistler, Sola Scriptura! The Protestant Position on the Bible, 53. White's essay exhibits very limited familiarity with patristic doctrinal history such that it claims Athanasius stood against Liberius’, bishop of Rome (p. 42), whereas in fact, Athanasius sought the protection of Liberius’ successor, Julius, during his exile, and he, of all the Greek fathers, remained the most intimate with Rome after Julius’ death in 352. There is hardly a case for a proto-opposition between “Protestants” and “Roman Catholics.” Moreover, it is striking White argues that Athanasius makes no appeal to unwritten tradition, and yet in the very citation offered as proof of this point (Oration Against the Arians 3:29) Athanasius refers to Mary as Theotokos, bearer of God; an Alexandrian tradition which few Protestants would espouse! [D. H. Williams, “The Search for Sola Scriptura in the Early Church”, Interpretation vol. 52.4 (October 1998) p. 365.]

>>127778476
Catholics are subservient ants who have no values except what's fed to them by their priests. You have no claim to either values, traditions, or aesthetics. Your betters produced them for you.

And communism was a heracy developed by French Catholics and Jews before the Prot levelers ever picked it up. And that's not to mention the majority of the world's communists today outside of China are South American Catholics.

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>>127769102
The Feast of Trumpets

>>127768215
fpbp savaged

>>127778795
Protestants literally twisted christ's message into the prosperity gospel. They should literally be ashamed and hide themselves because of their moral torpitude.

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>>127778772

>>127778795
Which Protestantism have none evidenced by its relativist worldview and disdain for authority

Funny, Marx also believed that

>>127771160
I'm pretty sure protestants are funded by kikes since they're the only people I hear saying bullshit like "chosen people"

>>127768215
at being wrong

>>127774100

>saving the pope

thats the problem, Ahmed

>>127779045
Protestantism was the result of Catholicism doing the work of Jewry. Luther saw how much corruption was in the Church and rejected their moral authority. I'm not here to defend modern Protestantism, but compared to the Catholic ant-people who haven't got a clue, they're at least trying.

>>127779429
Meanwhile Protestantism contradict all the early christians

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>>127771160

>>127772534
>rewritten
Certainly you wouldn't say the same about Irenaeus who was caught adding verses to Mark, would you?

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>>127769102
dont spook me

>>127779450
Protestantism is corruption of Christianity and Europe

deal with it

>>127779158
Authority at that time was Crypto-Jewish Catholic corruption like we're seeing today. If you don't have any disdain for that authority you're a subhuman subservient animal, but that's par for the Catholic course I guess.

>>127777535
The church didn't do anything, an artist or artists made it and church bought it because they can buy anything. The church is the antithesis of anything original because why change a winning formula, even if it is just cult building.

>>127779553
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

>>127775152
OH SHIT YOU GOT US ATHEISTS BTFO!!!!

>>127779450
Protestantism was the result of princes being tired of the emperor and taxes wanting to become rich.

Anglicanism was born from a king wanting to divorce.

Protestantism were born out of disobedience born out of greed.

>>127779573
Catholicism was the original corruption and now the handmaiden for Europe's destruction.

deal with it

>>127779593
>I hate authority
>I love anarchy and Marxism
Just like Protestantism

>>127768270
regardless of how you feel about muh illuminati muh skull n bones society stuff, this is creepy as shit

>>127768215
at fucking children.

>>127779741
>I love authority
>even authority that's massacring my people
Just like underclass Catholic rats through all of history.

>>127779739
>Preserved philosophy
>Aided in development of science

Protestantism hates both of them

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>Christianfags bickering with each other.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANNX_XiuA78

>>127771234
Quick, Google how many panes of glass it's made out of!

>>127779813
>literal anarchist

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>>127771354
sure

>>127779739
Protestants: putting the sacred texts in the hands of retards with no educations since the reformation.

>>127769102
>>127777777

>>127779825
>philosophy
>science
>catholic
Wew, what time machine did you just get out of? It's been centuries since any of that was true. Your pope is the mouthpiece of global Jewry and communism pseudo-science.

While reflecting on the recent charges of semi-Pelagianism leveled by a number of Reformed folk against the newly published SBC document on salvation (see PREVIOUS POST for link and commentary), I recalled Matthew C. Heckel's critique of R.C. Sproul's skewed handling of historical theology (see THIS THREAD). Note the following excerpt from Heckel's essay:

He [Sproul] does introduce Augustine and Aquinas into the conversation to establish that they believed justification to be exclusively by grace, and he uses their theology to accuse the Council of Trent of semi-Pelagianism. Beyond this, Sproul does not substantially treat the views of Augustine or Aquinas on justification. If he had, his thesis would surely have led him, as it did the Reformers, to deal with the question of the Christian status of the pre-Reformation church, since Augustine and the rest of its theologians did not teach that we are justified sola fide in the Reformation sense. In fact, unless Sproul's thesis is qualified, it would lead to the unintended consequence of consigning to perdition the entire Church from the patristic period up to the down of the Reformation, something the Reformers did not do. This is because the Reformation understanding of justification sola fide was unheard of in the pre-Reformation church and thus not believed until Luther. Alister McGrath points out that “there are no ‘Forerunners of the Reformation doctrines of justification."

>Vatican II
>Catholicism

>>127779907
Yes, we already knew that catholic parishioners were literal retards with no education.

>>127779991
Tell that to Protestant pseudo science

Like YEC

>>127769102
i figured this out before last 23rd september shemitah

>>127780092
Like Answers in Genesis

Who are Proddies

>>127780095
YEC is a lot healthier than Jesuit communism even if it is completely retarded.

>>127780092

Salvation through faith and not works, so convenient, exactly what the gospel says right?

>>127780045
To put it another way, Luther’s doctrine of justification sola fide was not a recovery but an innovation within the Western theological tradition. What is provocative about Sproul’s thesis is that the equation of the construct of sola fide with the gospel itself would mean that the Roman Catholic Church not only rejected the gospel at Trent, but the Church never possessed it at all from the post-apostolic period up to the time of Luther. In this unqualified form, Sproul’s thesis would also mean that since no one knew the gospel in the pre-Reformation church, no one experienced justification, and thus there was no Church. ("Is R.C. Sproul Wrong About Martin Luther?", JETS 47.1, pp. 92-94.)

Heckel's entire essay is a must read (IMHO), for it sheds considerable light on difficulties and out-right errors that tend to follow a deficient/faulty (mis)reading of historical theology. It is a pattern that I see repeated in many differing forms, especially by amateur and professional apologists from virtually all the various faith traditions. One could say, without much exaggeration, that the misreading of historical theology has reached epidemic proportions, causing me to wonder if there will ever be a 'cure' for the malady. But then, contributions like Heckel's do offer a ray of hope...

>>127780221
Which was inspired by Protestantism

Fake Christians

>>127780230
Yes, salvation through importing as many muslims as possible to rape your women. Good work!

>>127780294
>all the batshit catholic ideas are proddies fault >(
This is what Catholocucks actually believe.

>>127780417
Karl Marx saw primitive communism as the original, hunter-gatherer state of humankind from which it arose. For Marx, only after humanity was capable of producing surplus, did private property develop.

The idea of a classless, stateless society based on communal ownership of property and wealth stretches far back in Western thought long before The Communist Manifesto. Some have traced communist ideas back to ancient times, such as in Pythagoreanism and Plato's The Republic; or (perhaps with more justification) to the early Christian Church, as described in the Acts of the Apostles (see Christian communism). Other attempts to establish communistic societies were made by the Essenes and by the Judean desert sect.

Muntzer also led a large Anabaptist Communist movement during the German Peasants' War.

In the 16th century, the English writer Sir Thomas More portrayed a society based on common ownership of property in his treatise Utopia, whose leaders administered it through the application of reason.

>>127780473
The problem with blaming le prots is that unlike the holy cucking church, there is no central prot authority who pals around with Jews and plots the destruction of European peoples.

>>127773578
lol. Retarted Britirenaeus actually believes this helps his case.

Each day you get more and more pathetic, Britirenaeus, I swear.

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>>127768215
>Icon is a kike
>Follows dogmas written by kikes

>>127769102
that's my birthday

>>127780606
Communism also hates central authority

>>127780611
>Actual academic book
>Shows the Founding Fathers were Deists by large and inspired by Enlightenment secularism

>>127780714
Communism calls for central authority and hierarchy under Jews like Francis the Islamophile.

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>>127780655
>entire political party centered around the right to shove things up your ass, and make sure no one says its gross

>>127767978
And what people did not know that the Catholic Church is pagan. Also welcome to the Beast/NWO.

>>127780806
Funny because that is actually what Protestant did

Luther

"There are others who teach in opposition to some recognised article of faith which is manifestly grounded on Scripture and is believed by good Christians all over the world, such as are taught to children in the Creed . . . Heretics of this sort must not be tolerated, but punished as open blasphemers . . . If anyone wishes to preach or to teach, let him make known the call or the command which impels him to do so, or else let him keep silence. If he will not keep quiet, then let the civil authorities command the scoundrel to his rightful master - namely, Master Hans [i.e., the hangman]." (111;v.10:222/48)

"That seditious articles of doctrine should be punished by the sword needed no further proof. For the rest, the Anabaptists hold tenets relating to infant baptism, original sin, and inspiration, which have no connection with the Word of God, and are indeed opposed to it . . . Secular authorities are also bound to restrain and punish avowedly false doctrine . . . For think what disaster would ensue if children were not baptized? . . . Besides this the Anabaptists separate themselves from the churches . . . and they set up a ministry and congregation of their own, which is also contrary to the command of God. From all this it becomes clear that the secular authorities are bound . . . to inflict corporal punishment on the offenders . . . Also when it is a case of only upholding some spiritual tenet, such as infant baptism, original sin, and unnecessary separation, then . . . we conclude that . . . the stubborn sectaries must be put to death." (111;v.10:222-3/49)

>>127770244
Clown arsenal http://www.guns.com/2017/04/16/guns-swiss-guard/

>>127780978
Bullinger saw the contradiction in Luther's appeal to tradition for punishment of heretics, and thought it was "truly laughable" that he should suddenly appeal to the fact,

"of the Church having so long held this . . . If Luther's argument, based on longstanding usage, be admitted . . . then the whole of Luther's own doctrine tumbles over, for his teaching is not that which the Roman Church has held for so long." (51;v.6:259/50)

Logical consistency was never one of Luther's strong points.

Grisar states:

"That . . . every follower of his Evangel, were bound to regard all opinions which diverged from his own as godless heresies . . . he had never doubted from the moment he had discovered his new Evangel." (51;v.6:238)

>>127768544
As seen by filth mordernists.
The gates of hell will not prevail, the take over will end. Probably there'll be blood on the streets before that, unfortunately.

>>127767978
>>127772443
>>127777535
that entire place is filled with grandiose rediculous shit. rome even has a ton of brutalist fascist shit for you to pretend to enjoy
you should unironically visit the vat one day anon. coming from an ortho

>>127780978
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=O9dwNotog3gC&pg=PA7&lpg=PA7&dq=calvin+totalitarian&source=bl&ots=hfQ5-4TiO4&sig=eH-B35__jsRJal99K76UUo2BkaI&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj17-K_7JjUAhUMIcAKHa2_AF4Q6AEIMzAD#v=onepage&q=calvin%20totalitarian&f=false

Wow

Like Communism

>>127780325
Please tell me what the good Samaritan parable was about.

How you are distorting the gospel is an abomination. I pray for grace to enlighten your heart.

>>127767978

That's pretty cool, whatever it is.

>>127771160
Honestly, the KKK seems ok.
David Duke is right about a lot of things and if he truly was "their leader" for awhile then that gives them a lot of credit.

Much more so than Mormons or other weird cults.

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>>127773479

>>127781065
>The man who wrote "On the Jews and their Lies"
>Wants hierarchy under Jews
Meanwhile cucktholics like you just want to be under the thumb of anyone, even if it's Jews, just to satisfy your fetish for punishment. Hnnng, that muslim cock must taste good.

>>127768539
John Paul II is in hell right now.

>>127781082
They are the last bastion of western culture, unlike the philistines in the us.

>>127781283
Philip Schaff tells of a Lutheran minister who visited Geneva, “When I was in Geneva I observed something great which I shall remember and desire as long as I live…[which was] the weekly investigations into the conduct, and even the smallest transgression, of the citizens.” (Philip Schaff, History of the Christian Church (New York, Scribner 1910) at 502.)

Laurence Vance writes, "Calvin was involved in every conceivable aspect of city life... He was consulted not only on all important state affairs, but on the supervision of the markets..." (Laurence M. Vance, The Other Side of Calvinism (1999) at 85.)

Historian Will Durant mentions:

To regulate lay conduct a system of domiciliary visits was established...and questionedthe occupants on all phases of their lives... The allowable color and quantity of clothing, and the number of dishes permissible at a meal, were specified by law. Jewelry and lacewere frowned upon. A woman was jailed for arranging her hair to an immoral height...Censorship of the press was taken over from Catholic and secular precedents... To speak disrespectfully of Calvin or the clergy was a crime... Fornication was to be punished with exile or drowning; adultery, blasphemy, or idolatry, with death... a child was beheaded for striking his parents....(Will Durant, The Reformation Vol. III of The Story of Civilization (1957) at 474.)

John Calvin was the first Protestant in Europe “to impose…a uniform subordination upon an entire populace… With systematic thoroughness, John Calvin set to work for realization of his plan to convert Geneva into the first Kingdom of God on earth… The whole of his life was devoted to the service of this one idea.” (Stephan Zweig, The Right to Heresy: Castellio against Calvin (1936)

Whoops same commie authoritarianism maybe even worse

>>127774665
That was written by a Jewish woman in the early 20th century retard.

>>127781187
It's about prepping the bull for your wife according to Catholics.

>>127773539
These modernists really want a Christ without the cross. But then, it becomes another person, whose name starts with "anti".

>>127781223
Luther was an expression of pride at its best.

>>127772185
Catholics

Not Christians.

>>127781283
Psst, Luther was not talking about Jews

He meant THOSE WHO DISAGREES WITH HIM

>>127781448
Please tell me what Christ meant by "turn the other cheek"

>>127780871
I'm right wing retard. I would kill the kind of degenerate you mentioned

>>127781465
Protestantism contradict the Early Christians

>>127781436
Yes, we already established Catholics love communist authoritarianism. Every country with a catholic majority has an authoritarian left-wing commie government. You subhuman ant-people have a fetish for it.

>>127769239
>>127771032
>>127773444
>>127774077
>>127776902
>>127776835
For the Solar eclipse that many believe will mark the return of Christ

>>127781551
I believe the Catholic interpretation is to spread your ass-cheeks wider so that the bull can finish in your rectum if he likes.

>>127774397
unironically this

>>127781609
Which was inspired by Protestantism

That right there proves my point

deal wiith it

>>127768544
That's what they named it yes.

It is self-evidently not a holy depiction though. Repent and turn from what Catholicism taught you.

>>127769102
>No digits.

Fuck off shill

The meaning of dikaioo (to justify) and its cognates has been an issue of long standing debate between Catholics and Protestants. Both Calvin and Luther (though perhaps more so Calvin) give dikaioo a decidedly judicial, declarative turn. For Calvin, the Pauline conception of justification is limited to God’s judicial declaration that the one believing in Christ is now righteous/innocent regarding the divine judgment. Thus the “righteousness” of justification does not involve any ontological/ethical change, but rather speaks of one’s legal innocence derived from Christ and his atoning work. Further, Calvin very pointedly insists that the righteousness of justification has nothing whatsoever to do with regeneration (see his Institutes, III.13.5). In contrast, Catholic theologians—both then and now—have insisted that dikaioo has strong ontological overtones. Justification in Catholic thought is virtually synonymous with spiritual regeneration and speaks of the sinner’s actual transformation. (Both sides agree that this initial justification is apart from works.) While there is more to this debate than the correct lexical definition of dikaioo and its cognates, this is nonetheless an important place to begin.

>>127781659
When you let idiots interpret the bible this is the result.

Christ said he will come like a thief in the night, i.e. unexpected. He certainly is not planning to come during a fucking solar eclipse.

>>127781686
>ill just repeat that all catholic failures are the fault of protestants again

deal with it

>>127781804
Those who have read this blog for any length of time know that I have strong Augustinian tendencies. Consequently, I have sympathies toward the Catholic interpretation of dikaioo. Certainly Augustine and most of the early church fathers viewed justification in a transformative sense. This is conceded by most Protestant historians (though see Needham’s chapter in Justification in Perspective, where he marshals a myriad of evidence that shows a strong forensic strain in the early church. Thomas Oden attempts something similar in his Justification Reader, though with less success in my mind). Further, McGrath is incorrect in his contention that Augustine’s dependency on Latin—and thus the ontologically ladened Latin expression iustificare as a translation of the Greek dikaioo—caused Augustine to mistakenly read a transformative sense into Paul’s doctrine of justification that wasn’t originally present in the Greek (see Iustitia Dei, 12-16). But Augustine’s iustificare had a semantic range that allowed for a strictly declarative sense (see On the Spirit and the Letter, ch. 45). Augustine interpreted iustificare in a transformative sense because this was how he understood the term to be used in Scripture, and because this is how most of the early church fathers before him understood Paul’s doctrine of justification. Augustine had the tools to interpret iustificare in a declarative sense, and even did so on some occasions. But he chose not to do so in relation to the bulk of Paul’s letters.

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>>127774949
>the Holy Spirit preserves the church from error and leads her into the truth

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>>127781659
Got you senpai

>>127781681
Christian only as convenient.

>>127769050
Hahahaha, Catholics are one of them.

>>127781851
Which is because they are the ones who inspired them and made it spread to begin with

I provided HISTORICAL EVIDENCE to back my point up

you provided nothing

>>127781580
Catholicism contradicts the early Christians (Gnostics). The Vatican is a power structure and a system of control, nothing more. Cucks for the Demiurge. Wake up.

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>>127781940

>>127781913
>The gates of hell prevailed over the church

>>127781947
>wanting your wife and children raped by migrants
Catholic logic

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>>127782028

>>127782016
HAHAAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

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>>127782097

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>>127768544
Not if you have to explain it.

>>127781989
>im spamming shit-tier catholic ant-people quotes
>this is proof
you provided nothing cuck, now go finish prepping the bull for your wife, that paki won't get his own dick hard for your ugly whore wife

>>127781900
Augustine’s interpretation of Paul makes a good deal of sense. But having said that, the fact remains that dikaioo does have strong declarative overtones. In the end, the meaning of the word doesn’t rest on it’s usage within the scope of church history, but on what the biblical authors actually meant by it when they used it. While Paul’s use of dikaioo can be interpreted in a transformative sense in many instances (especially Titus 3:4-7, where dikaioo is used as a participle summarizing the spiritual regeneration and ontological cleansing of the preceding verses), virtually all of these passages can be read in a thoroughly Protestant manner as well. It is necessary, I believe, to look beyond Paul’s use of the term and examine the broader biblical usage, particularly in the LXX. This gives us a clue in determining what Paul had in mind when he co-opted this term for his soteriological purposes.

Passages such as Deuteronomy 25:1, 2 Samuel 15:4, 1 Kings 8:32, 2 Chronicles 6:23, Isaiah 5:23, and 43:26, etc., show that dikaioo was frequently used in a judicial context, with dikaioo denoting the judicial ruling/declaration/verdict that one party was right over against another. In most other instances outside of a formal judicial context, the meaning of the term seems to carry the primary meaning of “to vindicate” (see Genesis 44:16, Psalm 51:4, Isaiah 43:26, etc.). In no instances that I am aware is dikaioo used in the LXX to denote moral or ontological change (if anyone knows different, please let me know). But does this mean that Calvin and company are essentially correct in their insistence that justification involves no ontological component? I don’t believe so. In my next post I will offer a working thesis regarding the nature of justification and its relationship to the New Covenant, and argue that spiritual regeneration is central to Paul’s conception of justification.

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>>127782152

>>127782220
>quotes directly from Luther
>quotes from Protestant scholarship
>Catholic
get real loser

>>127771640
>For I testify together to everyone who hears the Words of the prophecy of this Book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add on him the plagues that have been written in this Book. And if anyone takes away from the Words of the Book of this prophecy, God will take away his part out of the Book of Life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which have been written in this Book.”

I guess Protestant cucks get what they deserve

>>127770244
The Swiss Guard is one of the most elite bodyguard corps in the world you dumb beaner, they are all veterans of the swiss Army and are equipped with top tier weaponry

The costumes and hallberd are just here for show, if anybody try to kill the Pope they switch to kevlar and assault rifles

>>127782230
“to be dikaiosified is, in effect, to be given the treatment appropriate to one who is dikaios; in a legal context it means to be declared innocent of wrongdoing, or acquitted" (Perspectives on Paul, 272-73). Westerholm’s definition here includes two basic components: a declarative component (i.e., what is said about the defendant) and an executive component (i.e., how the defendant is treated). Whether or not Westerholm is correct that this is Paul’s primary meaning of dikaioo, it is clear that the word is frequently used with this sense in the LXX and beyond. Westerholm—along with most other Protestant theologians (including Wright)—press the “declarative” aspect of dikaioo. What I haven’t seen however, is someone who teases out the implications of the executive aspect of Westerholm’s definition. Westerholm certainly doesn’t; as can be seen in the definition he provides above, Westerholm intentionally drops the executive aspect of dikaioo when the term is used in a legal context. But need we do so?

Certainly many legal disputes in biblical times involved more than mere acquittal (it was more than simply “Mrs. White did not kill Col. Mustard in the study with the wrench”). Many legal judgments often involved rewarding one party over against another. Land disputes, livestock disputes, etc., required that the judge not only declare one party to be right, but that he actually bring about justice on behalf of the one declared to be in the right. Thus the judge’s justification of an individual involved both a judicial declaration of who was right, as well as an executive action whereby the injured party was rewarded restitution. In short, the forensic notion of justification that we see in the LXX—the notion that Paul is working from—involves both a declaration and an executive action on the part of the judge. This is seen quite clearly in 1 Kings 8:31-32 (c.f. the parallel passage in 2 Chronicles 6:23):

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>>127767978
Is this the final boss room?

>>127782325
>he's still here and not prepping the bull
Better hurry up ant-man, you're going to miss out on his "sacrament." hahaha

>>127779722
>disobedience
lol disobedience to whom? Catholics? The Pope? Because that's who Christ said salvation comes from, correct? lol Catholics are functionally retarded.

>>127767978
>>idk how to greentext

>>127782067
You are arguing against christ not me. Remember when he healed the roman soldier that were capturing him to get crucified?

Are you sure you are following christ's example?

I mean I'm not here to convince you, it's about your soul and God will show you the truth through grace if so he wants.

But be careful about what you believe.

>>127776481
It's a snake bearing its fangs.

>>127782420
If a man sins against his neighbor and is made to take an oath, and he comes and takes an oath before Thine altar in this house, then hear Thou in heaven and act and judge Thy servants, condemning the wicked by bringing his way on his own head and justifying the righteous by giving him according to his righteousness.

Implicit within this passage is both the declarative and executive nature of dikaioo. Solomon’s conception of justification involves God actually “giving” to a person according to his righteousness. This dual nature of justification—with both its declarative and executive sense—can be easily read into the other forensic dikaioo passages as well.

So what does this mean for Paul? If Paul views dikaioo as having both a declarative sense and an executive sense, what, pray tell, is the executive sense in his understanding of justification? The executive sense, I would suggest, involves God rewarding the righteousness of faith with the blessings of the New Covenant promise. Tom Wright helpfully argues that Paul’s soteriology is covenentally focused (see his Climax of the Covenant). By this he means that Paul views the death and resurrection of Christ as opening the way for God's people to receive the long anticipated provisions of the New Covenant. Wright’s contention here makes a great deal of sense. Granting this as a basic starting point (which apparently many do not), I would suggest that the executive aspect of justification is seen in the sinner being rewarded with the new creation/circumcision of the heart (Galatians 6:15, Romans 2:29, etc.)—a central facet of the New Covenant promise (Jeremiah 31:31, Ezekiel 11:19, etc.). Paul’s basic understanding of justification would run thus:

>>127782471
>wait now i do

>>127782430
>I can't address facts

>>127782509
We are sinners and cut off from the eschatological blessing that God intends to bring upon the world. Yet in his mercy, God has sent Christ to open the way for sinners to be reconciled to him, counting our faith in him as our righteousness. Based upon this righteousness of faith, God then justifies us. This justification is not merely the divine declaration that we are now in right standing before God; it also necessarily involves his actual giving to us the reward of a righteous individual, namely the promised spiritual regeneration of the New Covenant (of course, such a claim requires scriptural substantiation that is not provide here).

Thus ontological renewal is not ancillary to justification, but is in fact an essential (pun intended) element of justification. For Paul, the executive nature of justification does not look only to the resurrection of the body and the final reward of eternal life. We do not need to wait until we die to be “rewarded as righteous.” Paul very much views the present spiritual regeneration afforded through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit as the in-breaking of this coming eschatological resurrection. So much so, that he can speak of us as having already been justified in the present—declared righteous and rewarded as righteous (i.e., spiritually regenerated).

>>127768544
is this a joke?

>>127782476
No, I'm arguing that Catholics are brain-damaged ant-people who thrive on being punished and will be driven out of existence by their own cuck fetish.

>>127782725
Melanchthon

"Melanchthon accepted the chairmanship of the secular inquisition that suppressed the Anabaptists in Germany with imprisonment or death. 'Why should we pity such men more than God does?' he asked, for he was convinced that God had destined all Anabaptists to hell." (122:423)

"A regular inquisition was set up in Saxony, with Melanchthon on the bench, and under it many persons were punished, some with death, some with life imprisonment, and some with exile." (115:177)

"Even though the Anabaptists do not advocate anything seditious or openly blasphemous" it was, in his opinion, "the duty of the authorities to put them to death." (51;v.6:250/51)

At the end of 1530, Melanchthon drafted a memorandum in which he defended a regular system of coercion by the sword (i.e., death for Anabaptists). Luther signed it with the words, "It pleases me," and added:

"Though it may appear cruel to punish them by the sword, yet it is even more cruel of them . . . not to teach any certain doctrine - to persecute the true doctrine . . ." (51;v.6:251)

Protestant theologian Hunzinger concludes that:

"Melanchthon was wont to lose no time in having recourse to fire and sword. This forms a dark blot on his life. Many a man fell victim to his memorandum." (51;v.6:270/52)

In 1530 Melanchthon recommended death for rejection of the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, but changed his mind on this very doctrine later in his life! (122:424)

>>127782572
The fact your country is overrun with muslims or the fact your church supports those muslims over you, the "flock?"

Is that paki prepped yet?

>>127782725
Yet,
>zero historical or academic sources
>cannot even respond when such are provided against claim

>>127780782
>Britirenaeus still thinks this helps his case
lol. What are you up to now? 200 of this threads posts? God damn I can't wait until you're finally banned from this place.
>hurr durr same posts every thread never anything new follow the script post post post drown out actual discussion never listen lol heretics burn at the stake
Classic cathocunt

>>127782844
>I hate history
Protestantism made this

deal with it

>>127782458
Not to the pope, to christ. Greed is a sin. And not paying taxes is against the world of christ: give to cesar what is of cesar.

Apparently protestants didn't read that part.

>>127782867
>needing an academic source to prove the pope and catholic cuck church supports muslim invasion of europe
You see cuck, the rest of us can read things and don't need a papal missive to tell us what to think.

>>127782943
Melanchthon

"Melanchthon accepted the chairmanship of the secular inquisition that suppressed the Anabaptists in Germany with imprisonment or death. 'Why should we pity such men more than God does?' he asked, for he was convinced that God had destined all Anabaptists to hell." (122:423)

"A regular inquisition was set up in Saxony, with Melanchthon on the bench, and under it many persons were punished, some with death, some with life imprisonment, and some with exile." (115:177)

"Even though the Anabaptists do not advocate anything seditious or openly blasphemous" it was, in his opinion, "the duty of the authorities to put them to death." (51;v.6:250/51)

At the end of 1530, Melanchthon drafted a memorandum in which he defended a regular system of coercion by the sword (i.e., death for Anabaptists). Luther signed it with the words, "It pleases me," and added:

"Though it may appear cruel to punish them by the sword, yet it is even more cruel of them . . . not to teach any certain doctrine - to persecute the true doctrine . . ." (51;v.6:251)

Protestant theologian Hunzinger concludes that:

"Melanchthon was wont to lose no time in having recourse to fire and sword. This forms a dark blot on his life. Many a man fell victim to his memorandum." (51;v.6:270/52)

In 1530 Melanchthon recommended death for rejection of the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, but changed his mind on this very doctrine later in his life! (122:424)

This Protestant so like the Founding Fathers who wrote the consitution!