Famine under capitalism

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>>127644853
If five people in this image were starving, which persons would you hold responsible?

cunt.

>>127644853
Except the Holodomor wasn't the only famine under the Soviets, much less under communism.

>>127645193
We have enough to stop famines but I don't anyone complaining

>>127645193
O N E
H U N D R E D
G O R I L L I O N

>>127644853
>comparing an entire ideology to a single event
>>127645193
The Soviets weren't communists, they were Authoritarian Socialists.

>>127644853
There is no capitalism in Africa and most of SA. Capitalism means you defend fucking property rights, not that you have to be bribing warlords and paying up for mercenaries to keep your shit safe from looters, free-riders and niggers.

The people who are starving are not even in the system.

>>127645690
then go stop the famines
or are you just gonna virtue signal about it?
if that's the case fuck off

>>127645690
No, you don't. The moment you forcefully try to eliminate famine, you will remove incentives to produce, even though you might alleviate hunger in the very short-run before your stock runs out.

maybe some people are getting a clue. capitalism is a jew trick. we have the technology -.-

>>127646993
> -.-
Back to shitposting on leddit you juvenile, subhuman, prematurely born, pile of moldy dip spit.

Capitalism is a jewish trrick but you're looking at it from the wrong point of view.

>>127644853

>i posted it again mom

No one in the united states who isn't mentally ill is starving.

>>127647408
its funny as a human when someone is right the first thing to do is call them names its simple psychology. and yet you have no argument. also kys u faggot scum

>>127644853
Except we live in Corporationism

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>>127646518
>The Soviets weren't communists, they were Authoritarian Socialists.
Get a load of this guy.
protip: Communism always becomes authoritarian socialists. always.

Famines in capitalist nations? Oh you mean nigger nations.

>>127646518
>implying authoritarian capitalism or authoritarian corporatism is better

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>>127644853
Bad OP! bad! ... Stop being a faggot!

>>127644853
why are we including people from outside our country?????

>>127646726
That's not the point to point is that we have enough food to feed those people but we don't

>>127650379
Yes

>>127650393
why would we? they can farm just like we can and feed themselves.

>>127644853
>we have enough food to feed 10 billion people yet 800 million go Hungry

Have you heard of economics?

>>127650468
They can farm what? The USA doesn't exactly have city garden allotments.

>>127650509
Calvinism is not economics. It's sadomasochism.

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>>127644853
HOW INSIGHTFUL OP.

>>127650393
No, you don't. The world is not static. The second you take that food to feed those people, the food stops being produced. Why is this so hard to understand? Think more than 1 week ahead, you fucking niggers.

>>127644853
Good. Let those starving niggers in Africa die. You think feeding them would be a good thing?

>>127645193
Never forget the 100 gorillian goy.

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>>127644853
kill yourself commie rat

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>>127644853

>>127644853
Capitalism is in its final years. Most likely some form of socialism will come into play as AI and automation take over.

>>127650742
>The second you take that food to feed those people, the food stops being produced. Why is this so hard to understand?
Your logic is shit-tier and exactly the opposite of accepted economic theory.

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>>127644853
You're right- we need a unified global government to redress the huge, and completely unfair, disparity of wealth.
Just don't expect the people here to realise that.

>>127651119
You britbongs will never grow up and stop making daddy think for you, will you?

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>>127650764
More proof that nationalism is at its core nihilism. If there aren't global ideals then there are no ideals, and even human suffering doesn't matter.

>>127650619
Feeding people who cannot afford it would violate the free market. Bad things happen when you violate the free market.

>>127651423
>If there aren't global ideals then there are no ideals
Mommy I want my empire back! waaaaa
Haven't you tortured the world enough? Please have a nuclear accident so the world can be free of you.

>>127651593
>violate the free market
2/10 made me reply

>>127651119
i just contracted stage 5 Parkinsons by look at your post

>(((leftypol)))

needs to be fucking curb stomped with a permanent DDOS hammer

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>>127646518
>it's another one of those guys

>>127651423
>"BWAAAAAH muh subhuman animals!!!! :'("
this is you right now, my friend

>>127650566

They have food banks.

No one is starving in America. Stop being retarded.

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>>127651850
The USSR ended famines, beat back the Nazis, and raised living standards for everyone. It lasted almost a century and only 'collapsed' because of misguided market reforms.

>>127650959
Food is being produced for a reason. You are assuming production is a given. It is not: remove the reason for production, and you stop having it.

And then you make up fantastic stories about companies and farmers conspiring and sabotaging the government, like they do in Venezuela.

You are an idiot.

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>>127651119
> 140+ IQ (((enlightened elite)))
> That kill count when you add the faces up

You disappoint me, anon. Shamefully under informed.

>>127646518
>not real communism

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>>127652186

> this is what the cuckold believes

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>>127652186
>the USSR ended famines

>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor

>>127652077
You think food banks just magic food out of nowhere?
>no one is starving in America
Soviet-tier.
>>127652186
That and Brzezinski who really should not have been allowed to die of natural causes.

>>127644853
No we don't, that's retarded. Somebody producing shitloads of food and not giving it to others is not forcing them to starve

>>127652195
You are assuming that giving marginal surplus away completely destroys any reason to produce any of it.
People like to eat. Get out of their way and let them do so or they will eat you.

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>>127652210
(((Kill counts))) calculated by the CIA are not that useful.
What did they do to life expectancy? Life expectancy grew 1.5 years each year under Mao

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>>127652450
They ended famines; that doesn't mean there were no famines ever in the USSR. It means there were famines before- and there were; even famines that killed as much or greater a percentage of the population- and none after.

>>127652625
>marginal
lol

They like to eat? Then, why don't they feed themselves?

>>127653143
>marginal
I thought you wanted to talk economics.
Same reason the Brits don't today: the ruling class stole all the land and parceled it out amongst their friends and cronies.

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>>127652684
Everything not conforming to your views on the world is probably calculated by the CIA, according to your calculations. I'm sure the Khmer Rouge were just another western ploy to discredit communism, right?

>inb4 muh not real communism

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>>127652938
>The Holodomor (Ukrainian: Гoлoдoмóp)[a] was a man-made famine in Soviet Ukraine in 1932 and 1933 that killed an officially estimated 7 million to 10 million people[11] (other estimates range as low as 2.5 million or as high as 12 million)

>>127644853
It's called natural selection, retard. The weak deserve to have their genes die.

>>127653265
I know exactly what marginal means, you dumbfuck. I pointed the word out because you're being a weasel with it.

You're talking about Africa. There are no property rights there.

>>127653327
https://monthlyreview.org/commentary/did-mao-really-kill-millions-in-the-great-leap-forward/

>>127653584
I thought we were supposed to be better than nature?

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>>127653584
This child is totally starving because of his poor genes and not because he hasn't been given food
He deserves to die; after all, if white children don't recieve food they magically survive somehow

>>127653605
Tithing doesn't destroy the will to "earn" money, does it? Yet worldly taxes supposedly do? Why, it's almost as if you think the whole purpose of markets is windfalls from gouging, which is reason enough to ban them entirely.

>>127652477

Literally no one starves to death in America unless they are so out of touch with reality that they forget to feed themselves.

Stop being a retard.

>>127653584
In this case "weak" and "strong" being defined by how good you are at jewing others out of their labor and/or money.
Not very natural if you ask me

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>>127653632

You haven't read that, you just googled for it. What's more? You're talking about the wrong group entirely. Khmer Rouge was Cambodia. Also, skipped to the conclusion and read it -

> the deaths that occurred in the Great Leap Forward have to be set against the Chinese people’s success in preventing many other deaths throughout the Maoist period

Truly pathetic, both your reply and the work of the writer of the three thousand world diatribe on dick sucking you so lazily linked. Don't feel bad, you'll feel much less commie when you wake up tomorrow and the shame hits

>>127652186
>raised living standards for everyone
During the time ussr went from having 2 potatoes for dinner to 3 potatoes, we in the west went from 2 potatoes to 20 potatoes.

>>127654267
Bingo. Everyone is created equal. Apparently, for these Calvinist cuck castrati, the ability to jew others is the sole arbiter of worthiness.

>>127653952
>gouging
What the fuck are you talking about?

And you still need to justify why the fuck do we have any obligation to pay to feed niggers in Africa. Transportation accounts for 40-60% of food prices, and you are suggesting we ship it to Africa, which is even more expensive.

And all the while when you don't even know the reason why there is historically a chronic overproduction of food in many countries.

>>127654510
>we
Literally who

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>>127654435
But I have read it. It shows that those calculating the death count were paid by the CIA and their calculations methods were ridiculous

>>127648409
>he thinks I'm trying to argue
Idgaf if you think Capitalism is a Jewish trick, I'm insulting you for using an emoticon to express a point like a kid on Facebook.

>>127653690
We aren't better than nature. We are nature.

>>127654267
>how good you are at jewing others out of their labor
oh boy, the meme that never dies is here

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>>127654510
How are you measuring this?

>>127654866
kys jew thanks

>>127648694
That's because of a practical flaw in the ideology, but that doesn't make it communism.

>>127654627
>And you still need to justify why the fuck do we have any obligation to pay to feed niggers in Africa
Nice straw man bro. I don't because I never claimed that Africa was the West. Secure your own oxygen mask first before helping others.
>And all the while when you don't even know the reason why there is historically a chronic overproduction of food in many countries.
>>127654906
So is muh degeneracy. Your standards are oddly arbitrary.
Also, the meme that you can't kill with your weak appeals to authority is here.

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God, the number of shills in this thread is too damn high

>>127650393

>the only complaint about capitalism is that it is not absolutely perfect

Terrible economic system, huh familia? Let's go with the one that fucks up everything all the time and is inevitably replaced with less efficient state capitalism when the government decides to actually get shit done

>>127651850
Actually I voted Trump this election, but those guys are actually correct.
A dictatorship isn't communist, a world without hierarchy, money, or government is.

>>127654600
>Everyone is created equal
Wouldn't go as far as to say that

>>127654906
It never dies because it's true, pig.
>We are nature
Then admit that socialism is an evolutionary advancement over capitalist/libertarian ideology

>>127651697
Great argument

>>127652224
It isn't, read Marx.
>inb4 commie
I'm a republican bruh but you should actually know your enemy.

>>127653840
>because of his poor genes
Exactly true; his genes are those of his mother and father who don't give enough of a shit, or are too stupid to care.

>>127655381
Being commun-ist doesn't = final form, "real" commun-ism

>>127654963
>triggered
Not my fault you're mentally 12. You gonna make this face :,( now?

>>127644853
>niggers go hungry
What's the rush?

>>127655370
It's still shitty bait. The market is not your daddy.

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>>127652186

>>127655105
>Nice straw man bro. I don't because I never claimed that Africa was the West. Secure your own oxygen mask first before helping others.
Those numbers in the first post... That's what we're talking about.

>So is muh degeneracy. Your standards are oddly arbitrary.
So you are simply going to state bullshit you think is true?

>>127655289
>Then admit that socialism is an evolutionary advancement over capitalist/libertarian ideology
We don't live among 200 people. You need an abstraction of the reputation management system you would have under a primitive society. Concentrating information is making the problem worse. Wishing to live among 200 people again is wishing to go back to the stone age.
And all in all my main issue with you commies isn't even economics.

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>>127655432
It's caused by natural conditions you complete moron.

>>127655871
Oh, those 800 gorillion. Yeah, not even worth arguing about THEM.
>>So is muh degeneracy. Your standards are oddly arbitrary.
>So you are simply going to state bullshit you think is true?
No, I'm just going to laugh at people who think opinions are related to truth in any way.
>>127655871
Not necessarily. Not everyone needs to know others' reputation. The clans of 200 manage their internal reputation just fine. Interaction with others doesn't necessarily require credit as such. People can be and are members of many overlapping clans.

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>>127644853
Busy feeding African replacements.

>>127656116
Haha, this is how we know you know shit about what you're talking about. The agricultural yields in Africa are fucking enormous if you know how to farm.

The biggest challenge is getting Africans to adopt Western practices of agriculture, not the climate.

>>127655595
kill yourself scum you dont deserve oxygen bai

>>127655871
>reputation management system you would have under a primitive society
Rephrase?

Those primitive 200 people societies are the environment best suited for capitalism. Socialism came about when humans advanced beyond that stage of existence and started organizing permanent communities that could expand.
i.e. civilization

>>127656415
>No, I'm just going to laugh at people who think opinions are related to truth in any way.
why are you here?
why are you a commie?
why do you care at all?
Stop being a hypocrite, you fuck.

> Not everyone needs to know others' reputation.
You guys live in la la land. Navigating the social landscape is literally the most important thing about being human. It's THE reason why we have large brains and are so intelligent. And yet you say it is unimportant.

>>127656817
>Navigating the social landscape is literally the most important thing about being human.
Why are you here?
Why are you a compulsive extravert?
Why do you care at all?
Stop being a hypocrite, you fuck.

>>127656570
>lol plants don't need water to grow
Hmm

>>127644853
>Another "any death that occurs is due to capitalism, but the Holodomor and the millions dead in China wasn't due to socialism" thread
Yes hundreds of warlord (some communist) killing each other in the Congo, natural disasters that destroy infrastructure and cause famine, and massive economic mismanagement in centrally planned economies is due to capitalism.

>>127644853

> mom i lied to strangers on the internet again! aren't you proud of me?

>>127656726
>rephrase
Should you trust what A tells you? What do others think about him? Does he have a history of telling the truth or not?

A has asked me for a favor. Should I do it? Would he actually give me a favor if I asked him as well or is he just a free-rider? Has he taken many favors from me so far without repaying anything back? What do others think about it?

>started organizing permanent communities that could expand.
Cities were formed because of the benefits of security, specialization and trade. Guess what you need to have the last 2. You are an idiot.

>>127644853
>we starve many more people
Nope. "We" don't do anything, because there is no we. There is no such thing as "under capitalism" because Capitalism is simply the lack of criminal restrictions on property rights.

>>127657161
It really makes me think that some of the most productive agricultural fields in the world during the 1960s were in Angola, Mozambique, Rhodesia and SA. It really does. I've went to Angola. It's stereotypical Africa there.

>>127657026
nice non-answer

>>127656682
D':

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>>127644853
Actual Image of OP with his mom here

>>127655275

And this means that communism is literally impossible. People are not equal, and because of this, any group of people inevitably creates a hierarchy. Enforcing equality takes a hierarchy/government of its own, putting you back to square zero.

>>127657593
this

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>>127657604
This really provides evidence that plants don't need water to grow

>>127656116
Funny how most drought is not in Africa but that is where they are starving

>>127657338
Right, so what does that have to do with socialism or even capitalism?

>because of the benefits of security, specialization and trade.
That's not true. Specialization and trade were already happening aplenty without permanent settlements. And there were no threats that permanent settlements would've defended against.
Cities popped up when farming developed. Farming is what necessitated permanent settlements. And as a result of the excess food, the tribes' population grew.
Past a certain point you need a broader system to organize that broader community. Welcome to socialism.

>>127656116
I think this would be a good time to point out that Zimbabwe which had traditionally been the bread basket of East Africa suffered from famine due to land redistribution under Mugabe, also I would like to point out that despite droughts in California and Texas plants still grow in those two states.Water still exists in those regions, there is just less than usual. And modern agricultural techniques help alleviate this problem.

>>127658811
>Right, so what does that have to do with socialism or even capitalism?
All of it requires information. All of it requires a way to process this information. Think about the number of possible relationships you can establish today with other legal persons and compare it with the number in primitive societies.

>Past a certain point you need a broader system to organize that broader community. Welcome to socialism.
I don't think you know what socialism is.

>>127657814
Yes, I know this, that is what people should be focusing on when arguing with commies, not the soviets.

>>127659250
>I don't think you know what socialism is.
Are you sure it's not you? The person who called me a commie earlier?
You're the one talking about ways to process information and forming relationships with other people, as well.
Why not just lay it all out?

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>>127644853

>>127659773
>Are you sure it's not you?
You are equating having a state with socialism.

>You're the one talking about ways to process information and forming relationships with other people, as well.
Why not just lay it all out?
What do you want exactly?

>>127660350
There is no reason for states to exist if they do not serve their people, unless you're flogging that prosperity gospel jewshit in here.

>>127660465
All humans societies have states. The state is defined by there being political authority.

Also, why is having socialism "serving the people"? Serving the people is keeping society stable in the present and future, namely by making it predictable, so that people don't fear unpredictable bad things to happen to them and can go on with their business undisturbed.

>>127660350
I'm not. The state can be an implement of socialism, but that's not really related, is it? The discussion's about socialism, and that's what humans applied in order to advance from hunter-gatherers to the civilizations we're fortunate enough to be living in today.

>What do you want exactly?
To explain your overall point and what all the rest of this stuff about reputation and information has to do with it.

>>127661110
>Also, why is having socialism "serving the people"? Serving the people is keeping society stable in the present and future
No, that's serving dead people and a small subset of the people.
>not having unpredictable bad things happen to them
>sucks neoliberal cock
The only way these two facts make sense together is if you believe the state should serve some people better than others.

>>127661174
>To explain your overall point and what all the rest of this stuff about reputation and information has to do with it.
ffs, pose specific questions instead of asking for generalities that would require an essay to answer to. I already wrote a very short answer above

>I'm not.
you just did it again

>>127661578
>No, that's serving dead people and a small subset of the people.
Yes, that's why everyone loves a good old revolution. I understand you are young and have nothing to stand for but realize other people do. There's more to this world than your mind.

>>127662051
>nothing to stand for
And this is why you liberals really should kill yourselves.

>>127661911
I did pose a specific question, you gave a retarded nonanswer.

>you just did it again
I said all states are socialist?

>>127662159
what the fuck are you talking about? I'm not a liberal.

And you do have nothing to stand for. You have no personal stake on anything, just some idealistic bullshit some idiot taught you based on your angst for having too much free time.

>>127650742
This is responding to all your replies

There are many ways to end hunger without taking food from people, but you're too short sighted to see that, blindly protecting system


Remove the motivation to work by givging people recourse based upon what they produce? Lol what a joke

Irrevelant nor do I care

lol I never said to take food, you're putting words in my mouth, still the fact we have more than enough food to feed 10 billion people, more like 15 if we didn't eat meat, yet 80million go hungry and over 8million die a year from hunger your rationalization on why it's okay to happen is hurr durr it's not real capitalism lol, they have private property and a market, the mean of production are privately owended it's capitalism, whether you like it or not

>>127662284
>I said all states are socialist?
You said the first formal states were socialist in nature to prop up your rationalization that civilization developed thanks to socialism. Since these states have nothing to do with socialism, the less disparaging interpretation to your intelligence I can make of what you said is that you are assuming all states to be socialist.

>I did pose a specific question, you gave a retarded nonanswer.
>To explain your overall point and what all the rest of this stuff about reputation and information has to do with it.
very specific indeed
your commie professors must love you

>>127662409
Mandela was a communist and all the African power groups that took power were Marxists.

When South Africa and Rhodesia were run by whites and property norms were enforced, Africa was fed.

>>127644853
read Ishmael.
All populations must have a starving fringe. More food ensures more starving people in the future. get over it

>>127662671
>Since these states have nothing to do with socialism
Wrong.

>>what does that have to do with socialism or even capitalism?
"that" refers to your babblings about reputation management.
Is it my fault you're a sperg who can't follow conversation?

>>127662409
Why can't these people sustain themselves? If you give them food today, will they become self-sufficient tomorrow?

Who should pay for the transportation costs? Considering you are not going to expropriate the farmers themselves, why is it okay to raise taxes on your people to feed others who have nothing to do with you and who you'll never meet? Also, do you realize this is already going on? It's called foreign aid and it is causing an unsustainable population boom in Africa.

>the mean of production are privately owended it's capitalism, whether you like it or not
To have private property, you need strong institutions and a strong state defending such property rights. That's not what happens in Africa. If you don't invest in your field because there is a very high risk that people will steal your produce from you or that the government will expropriate you, that's not capitalism, I'm sorry. Owning stuff on paper means shit if property rights are not enforced.

>>127662988
>read Ishmael.

good book and taste my man

>>127644853
Because seeing starving people are fun as fuck.
I have over 100 hours of starving niggers(mostly children) recorded, that I always watch at meals. It's great to see these chimps dying while I enjoy pounds and pounds of food

>>127648694
That's why people think /pol/acks are retarded.
Socialism cames first, then it cames socialism

>>127663438
>Wrong.
I already understood you find it wrong. It's obvious from your replies. Tell me, then, why while minding that you clearly said you are not assuming all states to be socialist.

>"that" refers to your babblings about reputation management
Short answer is that money is replacing the role of reputation in most activities because of the complexity of keeping track of everyone's reputation in a large society. Long answer would require an essay. Again, your question is not specific.

>>127663747
>Socialism cames first, then it cames socialism

nigga wat

>>127662988
This is true only in Malthusian economies, which African ones definitely are. Standards of living of the average person don't change beyond subsistence level in Malthusian economies because the population simply grows to remove any gains.

>>127664353
No this is true of all life on earth, from deer to mosquitos. to the bacteria in your guts. When food is plentiful females become more fertile and the population will boom. The numbers of the group will always increase until the ecosystem cannot support it. This happens by way of no longer containing enough food for the numbers. How do you suppose the population settles? Through starvation.

If we grow enough food for 9 billion people, we will grow to 9 billion people and not stop until food becomes scarce and some will starve. Grow more food, get more people, get more starvation. This is a biological property of nature and a law of reality. The only work-around is to control birth rates and that is impossible.

>>127663949
Because the specific states that developed and advanced civilization throughout history isn't "all states"... Is this legitimately causing you that much confusion or are you trying too hard to strawman?

>money is replacing the role of reputation in most activities because of the complexity of keeping track of everyone's reputation in a large society.
Is the implication that money doesn't exist in socialism?

My question is perfectly specific, I reckon you're just not smart enough to give a specific answer.

>>127665372
Sorry, you are disproved by history. This does not apply to developed economies.
The 19th century wants its meme back

>>127645193
daily reminder China hasn't had a famine since the 60s, after centuries of having one like every decade.

>>127665650
You did not address my argument. Unless you mean to state
>history disproves thermodynamics
>food supply can grow infinitely
How can you believe this?

>>127651850
>china doesn't collapse
>b-but that's capitalism! d-doesn't count

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>>127654510
Only Japan beat the USSR

>>127665457
You just called me idiot twice while adding nothing. Good commie.

>Because the specific states that developed and advanced civilization throughout history isn't "all states"... Is this legitimately causing you that much confusion or are you trying too hard to strawman?
You are a clever little boy, aren't you? Give me an example of a early civilization with a socialist state, and why do you call its state socialist.

>Is the implication that money doesn't exist in socialism?
You guys love to name things on paper while destroying their function. Yes, prices and money existed in the USSR. So what? There were several limitations to it being used as a medium of exchange, it was barely a store of value and you couldn't use it to measure the relative worth of goods. So, it meets two functions of money very poorly and fails at the most important one. Do you call it money then? It's like saying marks were money in Weimar Germany. Yeah, it is true on paper, but it didn't function as such.

>>127666123
It's population that does not grow.

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>>127665372
>The only work-around is to control birth rates and that is impossible.
actually it's really easy in humans.

>>127666582
World population is always growing. Including first world countries. Only a small percentage of humans voluntarily keep their birth rates low.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPjzfGChGlE

What is the correct amount of food to produce so no one will ever starve, in your opinion?

>>127666383
So convincing. You even have economics manuals from the 60-80s, most notably Samuelson's, giving some credence to communism at the time because their figures looked so good. And that's exactly it: they looked good.

>>127667328
World population is only going to stop growing when the share of european population to the rest of the world reaches 1500-1600s levels. The only continent which is headed for a clearly oversized population at the moment is Africa. Don't worry about South America and Asia.

Human population growth historically is clearly following an hyperbolic trend.

>>127667477
there's some interesting analysis i can't find right now that basically says that it was good, for the basic industrialisation, then it died on it's arse because it really couldn't handle the shift to consumerism. (for all the breadlines memes, it's really easy to ship enough bread to everywhere that needs bread, but it's fucking impossible to centrally plan the latest fashions or such.)

it was basically advocating import-substitution-industrialisation in terms of how it was laid out iirc.

>>127644853
>implying the only way people get food is through handouts by the government
Why do communists have a problem with work? Why must they constantly beg for gibs?

>>127644853
Do we really though?

>>127666530
I called you idiot twice while correcting you. And once more.
Commies aren't socialists, idiot.

>Give me an example
Sumer is the earliest we know about. The cities had their god-kings and they controlled the farming, trade, etc. Was the pretty standard format, mate. Even over in China.

>Yes, prices and money existed in the USSR. So what?
So what indeed?

>>127667862
I don't know what you mean by "basic industrialization", but if you specialize on heavy industry, part of it to fund your oversized military and the other to be useless, your GDP figures easily look good if you are allowed to tamper the numbers by messing with government expenditures.

>for all the breadlines memes, it's really easy to ship enough bread to everywhere that needs bread
Venezuela says hi in the 21st century. Apparently, it's very hard. It's like distribution chains are not solely about having trucks, trains and fuel or something... Really makes me think...

>but it's fucking impossible to centrally plan the latest fashions or such
It was a saying in the USSR that if some piece of apparel is available in stores, it's because it's out of fashion

>>127644853
so what, we go to a system that will most likely collapse in 4 years and drain us of our natural resources; I don't think so. Capitalism is the best system we have and is personally responsible for the roaring 20's

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>>127668558
And what came after the roaring 20's?

>>127668696
central planning that made a recession into a depression :^)

>>127668369
Venezuela is more like a failed social-democratic state than a failure of bureaucratic central planning.

Breadlines in the USSR were a result of corruption during the transition towards a market system once they reached the limitations of central planning.

If central planning for basic needs didn't work, waging a total war as in WW2 would be impossible. (War making people in countries used to luxury like Britain willing to tolerate a reduction in luxury goods as the central planners take over and throw everything into building war material and making sure nobody starves domestically.), it's during peacetime - once you develop to the state where people start wanting consumer goods - that it begins to stagnate and weaken, as in the USSR.

>>127668229
>Sumer
Just googled "trade sumer", "economy sumer" and the first 5 links contradict what you're saying. Good riddance.

>So what indeed?
From your meaningless remark, I figure you don't know what money is for. If it doesn't work like money but the state calls it money is it money? The USSR used it just as a means of internal accounting, even though they tried to abolish it and failed hard.
The major function of money is to measure the relative scarcity of goods, which is, converting this back to the reputation management talk, a way of simplifying information on who needs favors or how they will return such favors. In the USSR, money didn't do that.

If you have ever used a coupon system with your commie friends, when you are organizing protests and other bullshit to subvert the US, congratulations: you have created a proto form of money.

>>127644853
name a single capitalist nation suffering from a famine
just one.
go ahead, ill wait

famines are caused by marxism and anarchy, not capitalism

>>127644853
So what?

>>127669212
During WW2 the state didn't take over production and distribution activities: they mostly regulated prices. Also, people were hungry all the time. A war economy is not a good example to make a case for central planning.

>Venezuela is more like a failed social-democratic state than a failure of bureaucratic central planning.
They expropriated oil companies and started mismanaging them, leading them to bankruptcy. Last month, they couldn't even pay the cost of shipping oil, fucking lol. They control most of the supply of the shit you find in retail stores in the UK. The breadlines in Venezuela are not at the door of private retailers but of government stores. That's not a social democracy: my country is.

>Breadlines in the USSR were a result of corruption during the transition towards a market system
? There were breadlines in the 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s, ...
what are you talking about?

>>127665833
hourly reminder:
china doesnt have famines any more because the politburo simply sends any who report on their famines to "re-education camps" where they make nikes for 20 hours a day on 100 grams of rice and a mouldy onion, until they become properly loyal to the marxist maoist doctrines that will surely guide the world to a utopian workers paradise.

>>127663496
Same it's not communism if it's not a stateless,classless,moneyless society,so if any country that's killed large amounts of people fits this pls let me know.Because you can't say that communism has never kille anyone.Worse the saying ussr wasn't communist, if we're going to play that game, then communism never killed anyone, because only a handful have ever gotten even close to communism and def not china or ussr so now if you wanna play the it's not really capitalism game please let's play

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>>127662844
>the strayan speaks of truth
>>127662409
i would like for all households to be highly recommended (almost mandatory) to tend a personal subsistence garden and perhaps volunteer on a community mini farm to mitigate this shit.
>tfw we sort of do that here in N.E. Kentucky

>>127670689
The US, Canada, Australia, Europe, China, Japan are capitalist. There you go, some examples of capitalism.

>>127663496
Wrong as usual, you don't need a strong state for it to be capitalism,ever heard of an app? Or something in between, protecting ones property is your own responsibility, it still has qualities of capitalism,market,money,private property,you can't tell me it's not capitalism,this is not meeting them doesn't matter,it's called being a decent human being lol.

>>127669485
I just did the same, and you must not be getting the same links as me.
Unless you're looking at ones that use "Sumeria" to talk about the general region in Mesopotamia and not the actual civilization itself.

>a way of simplifying information on who needs favors or how they will return such favors. In the USSR, money didn't do that.
I see, and you believe that the anti-money USSR = socialism, and therefore socialism itself isn't capable of implementing that function.
Consider my noggin well and truly jogged.

>organizing protests and other bullshit to subvert the US
US has been subverted for at least a century. Worry about your own country.

>>127667810
porra caralho bro
>hyperbolic
>tfw portubro taught me a word ive never heard before
>inb4 burger education
i am a trucker/mechanic, no post high school 'EDJUHCAYSHUN' for my ass y'all

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>>127668800
>recession
>depression
How can these things be?

>>127663496
300 billion to end, but it's not profitable enough so your system will not do that.Foreign aid is a start,but we spend far more on war. You're making excuses while people are dying, condemning communism for killing people yet your system counties to murder much much more.

>>127670116
why are you wasting your breath arguing minutiae with that retard?

marxists never run out of strawmen and have an endless capacity to move the goalposts.
that faggot has displayed the classic tactics of the leftist crypto-marxist "intelligentsia"

> make argument against marxist OP
> random fucknut lefty jumps in with non-sequitur
> dickslap the non-sequitur, demonstrating that it is utterly wrong as well and utterly pointless
> lefty has a new strawman erected for you to fight next
> demolish that strawman (since it is especially rickety and poorly constructed, even by strawman standards)
> lefty has another strawman ereced, drawing you further and further afield
> by the time you realize youre shouting at clouds, the lefty has already declared victory and moved on to create 3 new threads

>>127671396
ever heard of a business cycle?

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>>127644853
Nope. I will now explain in great detail why you are a retard and why it is YOUR fault, and the fault of people like you, that Africa is in its present situation.

The problem with Africa fundamentally is one of market pressures. Farming in Africa is a colossal waste of effort and money. Why is that, you ask? Surely starving people would do ANYTHING for food, right?

Well retard, it turns out that it's hard to compete with "Free" when you're trying to sell the yields of your harvests. Massive aid shipments to Africa demolished most of its farming industry, along with SOCIALIST governments like Mugabe's Zimbabwe confiscating farms and murdering their owners, and then doing what Socialists always do--suck shit at doing actual work.

Other local agriculture industries are pushed out by aid shipments which drive down prices temporarily, only to see the famine continue next year, but now with more people created by the massive boom of free food. Africa's population is exploding BECAUSE OF OUR AID. It will continue to expand until we DON'T have enough food to feed them unless something is done. Your proposal is self-defeating. You would fund their mindless expansion until they number 3 or 4 billion, by which time we will have overfarmed the soil. Miles of China desertify every year. The USA uses massive amounts of chemicals in our agricultural industry. How sustainable is this?

It isn't. The solution is for us to CUT aid and instead subsidize local farmers. What you don't realize (because you are an IDIOT) is that this is all the fault of governments run by people like you proposing STUPID solutions based on your feelings. It feels better to just throw food at those worthless niggers instead of teaching them how to farm, doesn't it? Because if they actually succeeded in pulling themselves out of famine and poverty you wouldn't have anything left to virtue signal about.

Socialist faggot weasel. I can't wait for the "revolushun" so that I can cut your throat.

>>127671296
You are going to be displeased to know that I used the wrong word. The actual one is logistic or sigmoid. Having a trend like that means that it's exponential in the beginning and the growth starts slowing down to 0 as it approaches a maximum value.

>>127663496
We've been exploiting these areas for years, that's why, giving them food today is a start, we could easily help create the infrastructure to end world hunger forever. It would cost 30 billion to end for a year

>>127671677
Yes, I hear about them a lot, particularly in societies that care more about kikenose making shekels than about the common welfare of the population.
In fact it tends to be kike that's telling me about them.
Funny coincidence, that.

>>127644853
Nobody is starving in the USA unless they do it by choice (IE,drug habbit). So few people are starving that the metric the government uses now is the VARIETY of food you eat. Even homeless people are obese.

>>127670689
>IT
>WASN'T
>REAL
>COMMUNISM

>>127671487
You can only claim capitalism is killing people if they are living under it. That's ultimately where its support has to come from - from the people living under it. I don't live under the threat of starvation and neither do you. We are living in full fledged capitalist countries.

Africa does not have capitalism because there are no property rights there. If I go to Angola, point a gun to a nigger for him to give me his phone (and, yes, they do have phones, even the poor ones), the police won't do shit to me. In fact, my main issue if I do that is his friends. He will call them to fuck me up.
Tell me how the hell is this a capitalist country?

>>127671584
meh, I don't know, I must feel generous today

I've been saging my posts, though

>>127671487
> your system "counties" (lulz) to murder more!!!

so NOT paupering yourself to try and lift africa from the mess it has created all by itself is "murder"???

africa has been a desolate barbarian wasteland since the dawn of time, thats why all the smart hominids fled to better climates, leaving only the most primitive and idiotic to languish in the sweltering heat, get chased by leopards and die from tsetse fly diseases.

sending "aid" to africa is simply enriching the warlords, local tribal chiefs and tin pot dictators who run that corrupt and utterly doomed continent

anyone who builds anything, watches in horror as it is destroyed by the next roving band of feral niggers to swagger through his village

the only way civilization can save africa is by fully occupying the entire continent with overwhelming military force and brutal repression of niggertry
are you down for that mr marxist?

>>127671705
you are gonna be displeased ive actually heard that word before while hearing diving instructions a few months ago in the Yucatan
>hyperbolic chamber
the word you looking for exbacerate or exponential slick?

>>127671939
He doesn't mean people in the USA. And nobody starves here because of the overprotective socialist programs.
>>127672197
That last sentence goes to you as well
>We are living in full fledged capitalist countries.

>>127644853
>Blaming capitalism for the errs of Communism and Socialism

Hey what political system do those 800 Million people live under?
Oh right. Fucking Communism. What a great ideology. Better defend the gulags and the death squads some more, you don't want people thinking you're a racist.

>>127671914
Good. You should look into the Federal Reserve and how it is the very tool kikes use.

>>127644853
I don't remember Africa adhering to capitalist and free market systems.

>>127672317
>sending aid to Africa enriches warlords, chiefs, and dictators
>Africa created the mess all by itself!
lol
We definitely should occupy Africa though.
South America as well while we're at it. No faggoty "puppet" regimes, full blown imperial rule.

>>127651119
>leftypol
Get fucking gassed already you commie niggers.

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>>127672609
I know about the fed anon. But if you believe it's the only tool they use, you're still pretty bluepilled

>>127671784
>We've been exploiting these areas for years
Just like Germany has been exploiting Portugal because Volkswagen has a factory near Lisbon. Or like the Dutch have been exploiting Portugal for owning farms in Alentejo. Or British have been exploiting Portugal for retiring in Algarve. Or the Spaniards have been exploiting Portugal for owning a bank with a major chunk of market share in Portugal. Or countless Europeans have been exploiting Portugal for suddenly thinking that Lisbon is a very good city to visit during the summer.

For fuck sake. It is the people who spouted your bullshit that said we were exploiting Asia in the 1990s. Things haven't turned out as expected, haven't they?

You are not ever going to end hunger in Africa unless their economies actually develop. Giving them food will not solve a thing, just make the looming massive famine worse. Seriously, study Malthusian economics. It does not apply to almost any country today, but it sure does apply to Africa. You're making the problem worse.

>>127672476
Again, you don't know what socialism is.

>>127672882
I never said it was the only tool they used. You underestimate me

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>>127672416
exponential on the left, logistic on the right

I was looking for logistic growth.

>>127673090
You're a brainlet who can barely articulate your own points, let alone refute mine. Why should your interpretation of socialism mean anything to me?
Socialism = collective over individual
Liberalism = individual over collective
That's all it boils down to in the end

>>127673668
hahaha, according to your definition I'm a socialist lol

see how stupid you are?

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>>127673103
Why defend their most potent and pervasive tool?

>>127673931
If you were able to actually communicate your beliefs, I'm sure I'd disagree.

>>127670116
The British state absolutely did take over many of those activities. Even the price regulations often had distrubtionary intentions.

>A war economy is not a good example to make a case for central planning.
It is when you want to demonstrate that central planning has some uses - which is my interest.

Your country is successful social democracy, they're a failed attempt to do something similar. (So was the late USSR, actually. The idea was basically "hey, let's take Russia and try to make it Sweden!", yeah that went well...)

>There were breadlines in the 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s, ...
[citation needed] at the very least for the 60s. (30s, 40s, 50s I can all believe.)

>>127671584
I'm not a marxist by any means. I just appreciate what central planning does well.

Interesting data is interesting data. The USSR was an unambiguous failure, but looking at the data points it threw up is interesting.

>>127674069
I'm giving you another chance, then. What didn't you understand?

>>127670356
Interested in a citation on this for my "China Horror Stories" collection.

>>127674128
A chance for what? It's not fun to call you an idiot just for the sake of it, you've got to actually give me something to rebut in the process.

>>127671104
Ancap

>>127644853
wrong again . we need mor starvation in order to get rid off worthless subhuman niggers - otherwise the planet will collapse .

I like the pictures of starving nigger kids when I eat my airlift steak from argentinia ; I like to see this funny pictures from the us when niggers with their scumbags get arrested by the police .

I hope one day the us legal system will have some kind of Auschwitz for these useless idiots

>>127674127
>The British state absolutely did take over many of those activities.
Yes, building part of its armament kek. Still not a good example.

>Even the price regulations often had distrubtionary intentions.
Rationing. Rationing.
You don't know how long the war is going to last, so you prevent your people from eating too much.
In fact, it's to prevent rationing that historically many countries have overproduction in agriculture, i.e. France, Germany and the US. Really makes me think...

>central planning has some uses
I don't disagree with this. What I think is that in almost all cases, it brings about more harm than good.

>Your country is successful social democracy, they're a failed attempt to do something similar.
What the fuck? You are unironically comparing Venezuela with Portugal? Fuck, Portugal is definitely not successful as a capitalist country because it's politically unstable as fuck and our courts fucking suck, but to actually compare it with Venezuela is on another level. Mate, when I went to London, there was nothing there that surprised. Everything in London works pretty much like it does in Portugal.

Also, social democracies are capitalist. Sweden is capitalist. You can't even compare Sweden with a large welfare state but a very strong private economy with Venezuela lol

>[citation needed] at the very least for the 60s. (30s, 40s, 50s I can all believe.)
I'd like to know what you think changed in the 60s

>>127674302
>If you were able to actually communicate your beliefs, I'm sure I'd disagree.
You didn't understand something. I'm willing to explain it to you, as long as it is not one of those "explain your overall point".

>>127671104
Ancaps don't understand information. They live in the strange frictionless world of 1st microeconomic models. You need a strong state.

>>127644853
>under capitalism
really? where are you at? because afaik, there isn't a region on this planet where capitalism is practiced.

I mean your flag is american, so you can't be possible talking about the US, right?
US is economic socialism, social liberalism and monetary communism.

>>127675110
1st year*

>>127670950
Lol so china is now capitalist, if so that doesn't help you at all. And I was talking about there not being examples of communism like the ones you're talking abot.Never said they wasn't capitalist, want me to give examples, unless you're going to deny any negative ones, Mexico,hati,need more?

>>127675187
You have been duped by the tendency of commies giving ironic names to everything because their policies never work. Yes, China is capitalist. It's Asian flavored capitalism like in Singapore or Japan, but it's capitalism. In fact, Portugal and Spain had a system similar to theirs up until 1974, and they were definitely capitalist at the time.

>>127672476
>He doesn't mean people in the USA. And nobody starves here because of the overprotective socialist programs.
Nope. People don't starve because capitalism creates abundance. Stop being retarded, lazy bum.

>>127672197
I clearly said it would take 300billion to create the infrastructure to end world hunger,thus would develop their Economy

>>127644853
Without our existing system, we wouldn't have all that food. You need to convince me that there is a way to feed everyone without shrinking economic growth.

>>127674901
Nigger, you said you were a socialist according to my definition.
Are you basing that purely on what you said ITT, instead of on your beliefs as a whole?

Capitalism is fundamentally "individual over collective".
It doesn't make any difference if you're one of the
>hahah if you're poor you obviously don't deserve to live
faggots, or one of the deluded
>it'll work out better for everyone in the end
faggots. "Everyone" functions as a plural of the individuals. "Collective" is explicitly singular.

>>127672963
We've exploited the shit out of many Asian countries,ever heard of sweat shops? When you take recourse form a developing country, its exploitation.

>>127674829
>You don't know how long the war is going to last, so you prevent your people from eating too much.
Well yeah, that's my point. It's really easy to centrally plan during a war because all you have to do is prevent starvation. It's once people start demanding variety because there's no risk of Hitler marching in and yelling at them that problems emerge.

>What I think is that in almost all cases, it brings about more harm than good.
I would agree beyond a certain degree. (In China I would regard it a partial success at finally giving them a strong central power base, even if there's suffering at the individual level.) I just think the functional cases are more interesting than the failures.

Although I should emphasise that my view of social democracy is tinged by history. In the 80s our social democratic party (i.e. the SDP, not Labour.) were proposing permanent wage and price controls to manage economic circumstances, so when I say Venezuela is closer to a failed social democracy I don't just mean a welfare state, but the older social-democratic model that has quietly been shunted away as globalisation has taken hold.

>I'd like to know what you think changed in the 60s
Sustained period of relative peace and development. (In the 30s they weren't really developed, in the 40s they were in the middle of a war, in the early 50s there was still some hangover from WW2, in Britain rationing continued until 1954 on some items.) So the 60s is the only decade that would really surprise me.

>>127672963
Also is exploiting Africa and South America,isn't the same as having a factory in another country,its exploitation

>>127675493
It has been tried already. Didn't work. Dumping money does not solve anything.

This is starting to look like the meme of head start programs.

>>127668696
you mean something caused by exploitation of the stock market (which is under the government btw, not private) and private banks bailing out themselves which Thomas Jefferson warned would happen. I don't see how the great depression proves capitalism as a failed system.

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>>127675437
>capitalism creates abundance
Nice try, kike.
Abundance has been created for millennia. Societies don't develop without it.

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>>127675724
You don't know what capitalism is either lol

I favor the collective over the individual because the part is nothing without the whole. The individual lives as a function of and is defined by society. It's not possible to be human and remove oneself from society. We are who we are through others. This is why keeping the whole healthy should be a key priority and obligation of every part. To work is not a right but an obligation. To be mindful of one's place, to be moral, to go out of your way to preserve social stability, to not be a subversive cunt like yourself are all obligations. To have a part of the system malfunctioning is to put all of it at risk, just like cancer cells put the whole body at risk.

Capitalism is fully compatible with this. And if it sounds fascist to you, it's because it's directly from what inspired fascism.

>>127675934
Not trying to prove it to be a failed system. It's just a shit one that's a net detriment to humanity.
The great depression is evidence to that. Our country, with the largest industrial capacity on the entire planet, wallowed in poverty and unemployment while Germany, a country crippled off the back of a world war as well as the depression, catapulted to being one of the top world powers.

>>127675738
haha, it has to be from a developing country, of course

China was thoroughly exploited during the 90s, yes, a period during which hundreds of millions of people became middle class.

>>127676857
after their entire government was changed, which we had a direct influence in creating btw. and if socialism is so successful then why did China abandon it? and why is Vietnam abandoning it as well?

>>127672197
You could rob anyone in any country, doesn't magically make it not capitalist lol, look up the definition of capitalism, it almost meets all of them. Oh I haven't ever almost starved to death, so i can't condemn millions of people dying of hunger, frankly that's retarded

>>127675780
Watch Pandora's Box by Adam Curtis. Very interesting view on the soviet insistence that they could centrally plan their wait out of everything. The guy interviews some of the people who managed prices and supply decisions in Moscow. The soviets thought computers would solve all their issues by the 60s but as you should expect they didn't solve anything. In fact, what they said resembles a lot that meme you saw on the internet a few years ago about the panacea that was a resource based economy.

>>127675885
That's literally what it is: having factories in other countries lol

The first big backlash I remember was against Nike. That's what they had in Asia.

>>127676844
>Capitalism is fully compatible with this
But it's not.
In an earlier post you listed a bunch of countries you considered to be capitalist. So your attempt at "You don't know what capitalism is" doesn't work. You've already set the benchmark.

Applying capitalism to a society like you described would be a half-measure. An illogical one, to boot, because you'd need to intervene with your strong state just to offset the fundamental aspects of capitalism, because it doesn't give a fuck about things like social stability and morality.
These things are right in front of you IRL.

>And if it sounds fascist to you, it's because it's directly from what inspired fascism.
What inspired fascism?

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>>127676254
>Abundance has been created for millennia

>>127677680
>Calculating """income""" per person with no data

Nice chart.

>>127677197
>after their entire government changed
To a socialist government.

>why did China, Vietnam
Probably because Marxist socialism is shit, and if either of them had the balls to implement the socialism that was in Germany, they'd get regime-changed

>>127677680
>societies didn't develop before machines and factories were invented

>>127677225
>You could rob anyone in any country, doesn't magically make it not capitalist
Yes, I can rob people in Portugal but I'm going to face consequences for it, especially if I point them a gun while doing so. But reread what I said: I said you face no consequences in Angola. If you wanted to become a serial killer there, you could easily do so. If you want to ravage the farm of someone, you can do it without consequences as well. Property rights there are enforced by people taking matters into their own hands, a bit what ancaps salivate for. It doesn't work, it doesn't protect anything. There are no property rights in most African countries. One thing is yours simply because you are willing to kill your neighbor for it.

If some nigger tries to open a store in Angola, the next week it is robbed and he complains to the police and yet literally nothing happens, how well do you think property rights are being protected?

If that nigger sets up a supply contract of a given quantity of a product on a given date, he pays, the other party does not deliver and you cannot do anything through courts, how well do you think property rights are being protected?

To have a capitalist country, you need to protect property rights. Property rights are the cornerstone of capitalism.

>Oh I haven't ever almost starved to death, so i can't condemn millions of people dying of hunger, frankly that's retarded
It means the people actually living under capitalism don't think it is such a bad idea, unless they have been brainwashed by some edgy commie professor or their angst was too strong during theirs teens due to having way too much free time and they are too edgy to realize it

>>127678026
After the cold war, The United States eliminated their socialist government and now their prosperous because they have no socialist government today.

>>127675413
lol I don't consider china to be communist, nor do they fit the definition, but you're delusional if you think they fit the definition of capitalism like are you trolling at this point, South America isn't capitalist but china is lmao

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>>127678472
>Probably because Marxist socialism is shit

>>127677678
Portugal and Spain were exactly like I described from 1933 to 1974. You are an idiot.

>What inspired fascism?
Integralism, Aristotle, Aquinas, Counter-Enlightenment

but fascism is a bastard child of these

>>127678652
but their prospering under capitalism now

>>127678653
Are you a falangist?

>>127676254
At nowhere near the rate they did after

>>127678292
Are you saying that machines are enough or that you can have development without machines? Your post could go both ways, honestly.

>>127677932
The book (see name of file) has a chapter on the data. Get a pdf and read it. That chapter is like 30 pages.

>>127678819
Should link to
>>127678292

>>127644853

i dont think anyone has starved in USA since forever. while in in communist russia/china/ others 100 millions starved to death and tried to eat their babies

mods, take care of this thread for me
/thread

>>127651119
What are you even doing here go back to tumblr

>>127678530
I've dealt with small and large Chinese companies. They work exactly like an European or American one, even though they always say they can do what they can't (but that's an Asian thing, the Japanese do it too). It is capitalist. China today looks like Portugal was during the 1960s or the US was during the New Deal. That's capitalism in my eyes.

>>127678794
No.

>>127644853
That's because they're lazy and want to be spoon fed all of their miserable lives. Those are the same people that vote democrat and want big governments to give them free money. If those 800 million people really wanted to they could get a job doing mexican work but they can't even get an idea how how to do any type of work because they've been waiting for something that was never going to happen their entire lives.

>>127673090
I'll make a part 2 to this thread tomarrow okay cause I'm tired

>>127677453
It's a brilliant series, though my favourite episode is probably the atomic power one.
>That bit where the guy shows the filing cabinet full of planning data: "but now we have this... floppy disk!"

It's interesting to see how the present system of management via targets in the public sector will collapse, since they're on a level just as inane as the soviet system. The Trap is pretty good on that. It's a weird way of trying to create artificial markets to meet central planning goals.

>>127651119
Wait, I think the problem is the middle class?
No, I think the problem is you "Enlightened" fags.

Why should we feed them?

>>127678819
>>127678908
Growth =/= development

>>127678859
I'm saying abundance has been created for millennia and that using your chart to try and prove otherwise implies that society didn't developed before the Industrial Revolution, since abundance is a prerequisite for development.

>>127679438
What are you, then? You're trying to make the same false arguments as Franco.
If capitalism was fully compatible with what you described, there wouldn't need to be a strong state.

>To work is not a right but an obligation
You disagree with a free market labor pool, then?

>>127678723
Go live there, then.

>>127679990
>I'm saying abundance has been created for millennia and that using your chart to try and prove otherwise implies that society didn't developed before the Industrial Revolution
It didn't. People in England until ~1700 lived pretty much like if not worse than Romans, for instance. Fluctuations in wages were caused mostly by demographics, namely plagues. All the tendencies we have to considered inequality is bad, to assume that when someone has more than us it means they stole it, to have a very short-term and inconsistent frame of reference when comparing alternatives is all due to the fact we have been genetically shaped by the hard law of the Malthusian limit.

>What are you, then?
Look up Estado Novo.

>If capitalism was fully compatible with what you described, there wouldn't need to be a strong state.
Capitalism needs a strong state. Stop reading ancap faggotry. As I've said to another anon, they live in the strange frictionless world of 1st microeconomic models. What they don't know is that those models are compatible with full central planning as well because they assume perfect information.

>You disagree with a free market labor pool, then?
What I'm saying actually implies people have an obligation to contribute to society. So, if they don't, they should get nothing from it. If they revolt, to prison with them. It simply means there should be serious negative social consequences to those who refuse to work (i.e. ostracism), and no sympathy whatsoever from the government.

>>127644853

OP, pack your brainwwashed lefty bumbags and leave.

your communist sect needs you

>>127655004
Every time I combine salt with water, it becomes saltwater. But it technically isn't water anymore, it's a solution.

Also, difference between actively and passively killing somebody. Latter has been argued for a while now. If I trade my crops to France instead of Britain, and the Brits die of starvation, then I am not at fault for trading to the French over the Brits: what obligation do I have to specifically trade ONLY with the Brits? If the French offered a better price, then I go with their offer. Could you not extend more of the guilt to the French for undercutting the British offer, leading to the famine?
But if I actively embargo the Brits and cut them off from all international trade, knowing they aren't self-sufficient, or actively seize crops within the nation, or use my secret police during a Red Revolution to kill dissidents, then that is actively killing people.

>>127644853

What makes you think that the objective is to feed everyone? Why would you want to? If you fed everybody in the third-world, the population would absolutely explode through the roof with more helpless mouths to feed. What benefit is there to that?

Not to mention that communism is notorious for producing mass-starvation if that's what you really give a shit about.

>>127680733
>People in England until ~1700 lived pretty much like if not worse than Romans
Please stop. I like history a lot, you saying things like this hurts me.

>Estado Novo
Congratulations, it looks like you're not actually capitalist after all.

>Stop reading ancap faggotry
It's not ancap faggotry, it's basic reasoning. For you to say capitalism is "fully compatible" with something, it shouldn't depend on external forces to make them work.

What you're doing is stripping capitalism down to the aspects of it that ARE compatible, but you believed they were exclusively aspects of capitalism, so you still call it capitalism.

Believe it or not, they aren't exclusive. And in fact other systems do them better.
A government being apathetic towards idle citizens is disadvantaged to a government that forcibly works them.
You're throwing away potential, probably on the basis of some malarkey about "human rights".

>>127676254
>kike
>advocates for socialism
lol. Why do you think Jews advocate for socialism and communism everywhere but Israel? Hint: They know it creates famine and destroys countries.

>>127645041
That bottom lot don't look too bad Anon.

They're not starving clearly

>>127681931
Brainlet-tier thinking, anon. Famines and destruction of countries happened for a long time before communism.
Now explain why poor people in capitalist countries have to rely on socialist things like welfare and food banks to keep from starving to death.

>>127681897
>Please stop. I like history a lot, you saying things like this hurts me.
Perhaps you don't know as much as you think. Is it surprising? I was actually surprised by this as well.

>Congratulations, it looks like you're not actually capitalist after all.
lol

>For you to say capitalism is "fully compatible" with something, it shouldn't depend on external forces to make them work.
m8, my point is not that capitalism and the state are two separate things. Instead, I'm saying it is a feature of capitalism to have a strong state enforcing property rights. Read Polanyi. Commies like yourself love him, so I figure you will as well. He makes my point in a way you will probably like more

parasitic niggers who breed like a plague and expect endless supply of white food instead of working should not be counted in your "go hungry" number. NOBODY who actually TRIES and has Half a Brain instead of birthing 10 kids when you have no money goes hungry in a civilized nation

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>>127644853
Ohhhhh

All these nations are state run nat socialist dr. Feelgood

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>>127682463
>The English, who were once ruled by the Romans, lived like the Romans, the longest-lived civilization in the world.
Yes the extent of your wisdom surprises me beyond words.

>my point is not that capitalism and the state are two separate things.
Didn't say that's what your point is. Nice strawman. Care to actually refute one of my points anytime soon?

>I'm saying it is a feature of capitalism to have a strong state enforcing property rights.
Do you avoid saying "protect property rights" because you know that more accurately shows the reality? That if someone else is securing your property, then it actually belongs to them and they're simply allowing you to use it?
And that any claims to the contrary is ultimately rooted in meaningless moralistic rationalizing, which doesn't deflect their bullets away from your body?

You are not a capitalist. Idk why you're resisting that, I'd be celebrating.

>>127655004
Daily reminder, that commies will be hung from the tallest trees

>>127644853
7 million American citizens died of starvation during the Great depression but /pol/ ignores it because muh freedumb gabidalizm and muh holodohoax.

>>127685629
stfu ukro-vatnik

>>127687692
I thought that 4chan was haram in Islamic Caliphate of C*lifornia

>>127653840
>so let's flood its country with free food so their country's entire economy fucks off to die because it can't compete with free food
YOU are the problem, dumbass
STOP SENDING FOOD
If their economy can't sustain that many fucking people, it's not fucking meant to be

>>127690113
>it can't compete
All well and good when it's niggers starving, but will you still support that competition-dependent economy when it's your own people? Just stop feeding them and let nature sort it out?
Because everyone's marching steadily towards the same limit those starving Africans already passed.

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>>127644853
But we have tried shipping food to the millions who are hungry. What happens? Well for one the farmers go broke and stop farming, maybe sell their land. Why? People are getting free food, why buy it. So then they breed because they are eat sleep fuck type people, and now they have eaten. And now you have even more people with even less food because your virtue signalling (shocker) turned out to be bad for the people you are claiming to help. Here you are saying we should do more of this as if it has done anything but decimate an artificially multiplied population.

So this is a pretty bad idea it seems, I hope you have the humility to realize. A learning moment is where you see that these actions were funded by money taken by force from workers, many of whom vehemently oppose such actions, as they believe in teaching people to fish rather than baiting their population into artificial expansion and inevitable poverty.

So when I say to you that your ideas have hurt people in the past and I should not be forced to agree with or fund your ideas, will you accept that? If you do then you believe in the free market, and we can work out a way to help these people in a sustainable way without stealing from productive people who feed themselves just fine as long as they aren't losing half their income before payday. If you can't accept this, then your moral claims based on helping the needy are washed away by the blood rivers generated by your use of force and all that remains is your naked and corrupt bias.

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>>127692803
I like how you start off by detailing how the free market is what caused the charity to be problematic, then at the end suggest the free market is what'll allow there to be a sustainable solution.

Protip: There is no sustainable solution that doesn't involve "stealing" from more (((productive))) people. That's why at the very top and very bottom of every capitalist society there's always some form of socialist government intervention to keep everything from crumbling into the primitive, barbaric, uncivilized, every-man-for-himself form of society that capitalism fashions itself on.

>>127644853
>>127644853
Niggers are lazy inhuman smelly devil looking parasites and they all need to die.

The only niggers that would survive without handouts and white man giving them a life, are the hardworking africans in Africa.
Which is very few.

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>>127646518
>The Soviets weren't communists

>>127693826
Predictably you fail to give a direct answer, only attempting to cast doubt while demonstrating your own lack of comprehension. It wasn't charity, it was the government forcibly redistributing resources. This destablization knocked out the more sustainable local food producers which is what lead to famine. So in case it isn't clear even on the 2nd time around I'll spell it out: stealing resources from US taxpayers and sending it abroad is not the free market, you illuminate your ignorance by insisting that robbery is freedom.

I'm just trying to get you to agree not to get a government to rob and kill me for not agreeing with you and you call me the degenerate, Jesus.

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>>127695528
A direct answer to the Africa problem?
It starts with "C" and rhymes with pollenize

>It wasn't charity
Giving stuff to others for free to help them is charity.
The local food producers weren't feeding the people our aid was trying to help in the first place. You're addressing how the already existing problem became exacerbated, not the problem itself.

>stealing resources from US taxpayers
You can't steal stuff that already belonged to you.

>I'm just trying to get you to agree not to get a government to rob and kill me for not agreeing with you
You don't have to agree, only comply.

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>>127644853
yes comrade capitalism is wrong long live communism!!!

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>>127644853
>We starve many more people under capitalism
We haven't been starving enough you fucking useless nigger.
Sage this lefty cancer bullshit and fuck you.

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>>127696409
>>127696409
>Everyone who recognizes how grossly skewed the distribution of wealth is and isn't happy to see other sentient beings starve to death is automatically a commie leftist
Almonds activated

>>127698999
>>127698655
forgot (you)

>>127644853
I don't understand, blacks aren't human.

Nice try Tyrone.