Flat Tax is a meme

It's only retarded and deluded libertarians who take it seriously, and most of them don't have opinions worth taking seriously anyway. But systems like land value tax or universal sales tax make more sense than taxing income.

Give one argument against flat tax that does not mention or allude to fairness.

>>127501915

Flat tax is the most fair system though

>>127501744
>Universal Sales Tax
Is that not what a flat tax is? Where everyone pays the same percentage amount in terms of the consumer products they buy?

Because people who promote it have a big propaganda machine able to make them think is alright

>>127501915
This, as household income grows, so does the money government get in taxes, where's the problem?

>>127502199
No, it's not the same at all since flat tax is applied on income and sales tax is applied on things you buy, and those two things are not the same thing. Can you think?

>>127501915
>Give me an argument on why flat tax is bad without referring to the reason why flat tax is bad

Wew laddie

>>127501915
The marginal utility of a $15000 to a person making $20000 is much higher than the marginal utility of $150000 to a person making $200000. Also considering the size and expenditures of most governments at this point you'd need an extremely high flat tax rate on everybody, probably 36-45% or so to actually pay all government expenditures, which would mean that a good number of people in lower income brackets wouldn't even be able to economically live, which is bad for the economy and would kill net spending.

>>127502346
But flat taxes aren't unfair, if you are all paying a low percentage of your wage It's fair.. Personally I think most government service should be cut and regulated and then just introduce a 20% VAT with 5% flat tax.

>>127502299
So pretty much a flat tax on sales; A flat tax in an of itself, no matter if its on property, income or sales, is regressive. And if you look back to my previous post, the idea that the rich pay proportionally to what they receive is false, as there is a certain point in which people can only spend so much

>>127502299
Or to clarify it better, the poor people pay a higher percentage of their income than the rich do. In addition, poor people generally have to spend most of the money they have on necessities while the rich have enough money to be able to save and invest at higher rates

>>127502562
Well then why don't you just make cuts to government spending? Also, marginal utility is a retarded theory. You are just pulling numbers out of your ass, being immoral under the guise of being ethical, and using syllogisms like every fucking retarded socialist faggot.

>>127501009
How about we stop arguing about the fairest way to steal from the people and just do away with personal taxes altogether and instead nationalize the country's natural resources and use that to fund our budget?

The people who would lose most under a flat tax system is the very people who pay retards to shill against the system under the pretense that it's unfair.

Don't be fooled.

Don't fall for the reductio ad absurdum either. Of course a flat tax system would have some sensible limitations in place to prevent a family that can barely exist to get fucked over.

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>>127503314
>Nationalizing
How very sustainable of you.

>>127502922
>>127503185
Rich people spend much more in total than the poor on capital purchases.

>>127503356
What are you even talking about retard?
t.brain dead, left wing parasite German

>>127501009
whats wrong with a flat tax system? anything else is just an excuse to waste taxpayer government money
>>127502299
yes its the same fucking thing you dipshit, the OP didnt specify a difference between income or sales tax. a flat sales tax is a form of flat tax you obstinate cunt

I mean the most fair system would be if that everyone pays 15% of what he makes.Why not?Its fair.And its simple.
Give me an antiargument.

Funny that the comic almost nails it. The government is fucking over the people, regardless of tax system.

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The same retards who push for a flat tax push for Universal Basic Income

They just want to suck up to their corporate billionaire masters while fucking over the working class.

>>127503687
Jew kike overlords don't want flat tax system because it shifts a lot of the burden (rightfully so) to them.

Go get raped by more muslims.

>>127503705

>It's fair that someone who makes $15,000 a year pays the same tax rate as someone who makes $15 million a year

How retarded can you possibly be?

>>127503705
That's what a flat tax is, and I think the percentage should be lower and vary on a monthly basis regarding how much the government spends, I also think a large portion of taxes should be on VAT.

>>127503529
It works for China.
Why cant it work for us?

>>127503832
Oh, right. Flat tax power!

>>127503783
> The same retards who push for a flat tax push for Universal Basic Income
Are you serious? The policies are supported by people who are generally diametrically opposed to each other.

>>127503942
> Fuck having economic freedom and shit, why not be like China

>>127503185
>Poor pay a higher percentage of their income with a flat tax
No, rich and poor pay the same percentage with a flat tax. That's the point dummy.

>>127503919
>supporting Value added Tax
>supporting a flat tax

you might as well just nuke Europe now and get it over with

Europe already has a crippling VAT and the economy is predictably the most stagnant on earth. Adding a Flat Tax will kill you all off faster than the Muslims will.

>>127504063
Except they aren't

I seem the same retarded libertarians and "conservatives" pushing for UBI and the Flat Tax

>>127503917
But Why not?They are the same people,and the wealth of both is taken by 15%.The more you make,the more you contribute,the less you mAKE the less you contribute.A man who makes 100 dollars in a day,working 5 hours pays 15 dollars,a man who makes 1000 dollars in 5 hours pays 150 dollars,this man work is just making more money,but all of them is paying a good share,so Why not?Can you prove it other way than namecalling me?

>>127503942
>Literally using a communist country as an example
Fucking kill yourself desu, if you have a natural recourse on your property it's fucking yours. VAT and low flat tax are the best system and it means that the government can only function when people are doing well financially.

>>127503917
You do know what rate means right?

>>127503691
I have said it before, but the rich pay a way smaller percentage of their income than poor people do.

If person A buys a desk for $100 and pays a 10% tax and so does person B, it seems fair on the surface, but when you realise person A has only $10,000 in the bank account and person B has $1,000,000 in their bank account, then you realize that person A has spent much more of their income percantage wise than person B.

>>127503942
If let's say other countries started to nationalize their resources, especially those that provide China with all the crucial metals, everyone's economies would collapse in a week, not to mention the global market as a whole

>>127501009
And what would you like more? Progressive taxes

The more you work, the more you have to pay?

>>127503917
Because they are only looking at it on a surface and doesn't take into account a number of factors

>>127504252
There is too much government spending and I can see literally nothing wrong with a flat tax.

>>127504317
That is 1st person problem,he could always go for the 50$ table.You are shouting right nów literally but wealthy people bad.
Its not their fault that they are richer than some1 else.

There should be only two tax brackets, a positive rate and a negative rate

>>127504139
>shitposts about china not having economic freedom
Its the only freedom in china

>>127504264
Seriously how dumb are you?

a 15% tax negatively affects the living standards of someone making $15,000 a year far more than it affects the living standards of someone making $15 million a year.

This is basic math. someone in the lower working class can't afford to have such a large sum of their salary taxed away without significantly lowering their living standards.

You can tax millions of dollars from a billionaire and they're still a billionaire.

>>127504309
You know what living standards are right?

>>127502299
Labor is a commodity. An income tax is just a sales tax on labor.

>>127504436
Alternatively you could think of it as the more property you own the more property you need protected and therefore the more you need to pay the government since it's the entity/apparatus that guarantees property protection/rights, contract enforcement, etc.

>flat tax is not fair because im poor
>my incompetence should be rewarded
boohoo

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>>127503586
this. a rich dude buying a yacht who pays a flat tax of 5% vs a poor person who pays 5% on a loaf of bread

one person pays tens of thousands of dollars in tax on the one sale, the other just a few pennies

a flat sales tax is the most fair and balanced way to tax, and the least redundant


consider our current system:

1) you work and get a paycheck. taxes deducted from your income
2) you buy your meals and daily living expenses with the leftover money, these purchases are taxed yet again with sales tax
3) you save up your money for a large purchase like a house. not only do you pay sales tax with the money you already were taxed with by income, now you also have to pay an annual property tax
4) wow 30 years later you are getting old and thinking of retiring, you decide to sell your house. you pay income tax again that year, on a house you bought with money that was already taxed for income because for some reason selling your house counts as taxable income
5) you are getting old and about to shit the bed so you write a will, leaving all your shit and wealth to your kids. you die, and they now have to pay capital gains taxes, on the money that was now income taxed twice, gotten from a sale you paid sales tax on, gotten from a sale you paid property taxes annually for 30 years


do you fuckwads seriously not see the immense injustice here?

>>127504528
It's funny to even assume that most of the top 1% have gotten to where they are through hard work and not because they were either born rich, have family connections, etc. etc.

>>127501009
Taxation is theft, period
Any and all services currently monopolized by authoritarian government would find their solution on the market of willing participants if there was in fact a demand for them

Any involuntary wealth expropriation system relies on taking the most from those who have the least, at the bottom of the pyramid; talking of flat or any other tax rate somehow never puts this at the forefront

Can't wait for the day all ponzies on this planet fuck off and die, alongside those perpetuating them and being parasites to the supposedly free man

>>127504465
Taxation has nothing to do with spending, moron.

Countries regularly spend far more than they tax.

This is called a budget deficit. All a flat tax would do would be to increase the deficit all while increasing the tax burden on the working class.

>>127504592
China is much way, way less economically free than virtually any nice Western or Western-style/influenced country.

>>127504638
If you want a safety net for basic needs that's a completely different argument.

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Taxes are funding your own ethnic replacement and subversion of your people, why would you support them?

>>127504638
Except most people are making neither $15k nor $15m. A flat tax would largely benefit the middle classes. The people making $15k a year are also already on government assistance, so it really won't effect them as much as you're making out.

>>127504734
> Labor is a commodity. An income tax is just a sales tax on labor.
You can make money via interest, capital gains, etc. which isn't technically labor.

>>127504638
So, essentially what you say is that it's a bad thing that people with better income are actually living better, and that the richfag making a million should count his last cents same as a poorfag??

What is this commie bullshit? You do realise that the tax system you have in mind would only work if the whole world is under the same regime, so the rich have nowhere to offshore/run off to?

>>127504803
>If you are a normal working class person you are incompetent

Just goes to show how misanthropic and evil the average Swede is.

>>127504317
so explain why it is "fair" to make person B pay more, when they very well could have worked harder for their wealth than person A who decides to sit back in life and do the easiest, lowest paying job in life because they are lazy

>>127504830
You are literally making a false equivalence. If both of them bought bread at 5%, the rich dude only and the poor dude bought the bread at 5% tax rate, but if you take the money they spent from the tax and compare it to their income, the poor person paid more in terms of their income percentage wise than the rich person does. I can't believe this is the 5th time I wrote this.

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>it's another /pol/ gives ignorant economic opinions as facts episode
clean your rooms

>>127505312
So rich people should pay a higher sales tax? How fucking dumb are you?

>>127504946
You wouldn't need a safety net in society if you stopped taxing the working class so much, idiot.

>>127504977
>A flat tax would largely benefit the middle classes

Except it wouldn't. You're increasing the tax burden on the middle class in order to reward the upper .1% of society.

>>127505012
> it's a bad thing that people with better income are actually living better

No, moron, I'm saying that the higher income brackets can easily afford higher percentage of taxation while the lower income brackets can't

If you increase taxes on the lower income brackets they are fucked and can't afford food, housing, etc. If you increase taxation on the highest income brackets, they will be fine.

>>127501915
A poor person spends nearly 100% of their income on necessities. They can't afford any increase in taxation or they will lose all that they have. A very rich man spends almost all of his money on luxuries that are not necessary to his own survival or the upkeep of his business. The poor man uses very little of the nation's resources to live. The rich man uses far more of the collective resources of government to manage and operate his vast estates and luxuries. It makes perfect sense to tax a rich man more.

>>127505131
Explain this silly assumption that there is enough economic mobility in the United States to the point where working hard is proportional to how rich you will be and not because you have connections or have a silver spoon in your mouth the minute you were born.

>>127505312
no i am illustrating to you how the system balances out.

rich people will end up contributing the most because they will spend the most, they will buy airplanes, boats, houses, goods of all sorts

the poor people will not be constantly buying things, since they dont have much money to begin with. and if it makes you feel better, you can just as easily make some sort of exemption on flat sales taxes for things of "basic necessity" like food, so that you cant use the excuse that "poor people have it so hard they have to pay taxes on food"

>>127504919
LOWER EXPENDITURE, THEN LOWER TAXES SLIGHTLY LESS TO PAY OFF DEBTS THAT HAVE ACCUMULATED! FUCK THE WORKING CLASS AND THERE STUPID FEELINGS!

>>127505532
What do you fucking mean by "increasing the burden", and I don't see what is wrong with taxing the rich less if the middle class pays less in tax too.

You see amerilard,i get ypur concept,your idea
Thing is,you see im a 2nd generatioj of people who lived after communism Has fallen in mu country.My parents starter from 0,literall zero.My father Has no college-but through 20 years of hard work,they are somewhere in upper class.Me?Im gonna inherit it,and have a biiiig headstart in life.At this point,you are saying ,,uhm you have big money,so you pay nigger!" So I should pay more,because my parents worked hard?,,But yeh friend didnt have a ig headstart so he should pay less!" So didnt my parents,but somehow they managed to get that wealth...
Idk,It may be a thing that poor people dont like flat tax,but man fuck you and your communistic ideas.

>>127505483
So you are for increasing the tax burden on the middle and lower class? Wow, such a smart idea! Yes lets just fuck over the poor you fucking shit for brains

>>127505532
>Oh let's just take people's money, especially if they have a lot of it, they wont even know it's missing
Kill yourself, Socialist scum.

>>127505430
What if there were actual economists/case studies which had debunked the Laffer Curve, which provides much of the theoretical justification for a flat tax? Then it wouldn't be so ignorant to oppose a flat tax.
economistsview.typepad.com/economistsview/2012/06/laughing-at-the-laffer-curve.html

>>127505597
>silly assumption
>literally proven fact

its like you dont even realize how many stupid niggers are millionaires from their rap music

have you ever walked into a 7/11 and asked the pajeets behind the counter if they were born with silver spoon in hand?

yes, if you work hard and save your money you can open your own enterprise and become rich you dipshit

>>127505532
Wow, guess that one hurt didn't it, because you have fuck all to put against anything, really, besides emotionally loaded communism ideals

I guess you understand that your delusion would never have success in practice, reverting back to my previous post.

>>127505618
>FUCK THE WORKING CLASS

Another great way to sum up modern European economists.

>>127505798
That's not how it works

A flat tax means increasing middle class taxes in order to give a tax break to billionaires

Why do you think rich billionaires push the Flat Tax so much?

>>127505922
They're less affected, moron

The alternative is that you think we ought to tax the working class more just so we can give a tax break to billionaires.

Also,there is a thing that nobody can refute.

You are whining about the flat produkt tax.You said its unequal for people to pay always the same on that given produkt.So instead of paying 10% of the produkt price,a less wealthy person pays 10% and more wealthy person pays 15%.But it doesnt change anything,because the less wealthy person still wont buy a damn thing if he Has no money.

>>127506063
>Save money
This is a funny assumption. You think that a poor person has the ability to save money, let alone invest it. If we had a universal sales tax like your shit-for-brain fellow anons are, they would have to spend more per income, which means less money to save.

>stupid niggers makes money from rap music
You literally think these people made money from hard work and not just catering to what is popular in our culture? You literally think that every poor person has the ability to do that? Wow you really are a special kind of stupid

>>127506215
>you have fuck all t

You mean besides basic economic facts like "taxing more from the working class is bad for the economy"? How is the working class going to make money or save money if you're taxing it all from them? How is the working class even going to pay rent?

I guess if you ignore basic economics then a flat tax makes sense.

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>>127506218
lol you're a commie scumbag, enjoy being a weak parasitic faggot the rest of your life :)

>>127506584
I love the amount of responses you are getting
>ITS BECAUSE THEY AREN'T WORKING HARD ENOUGH REEEEEEE
>YOU ARE A SOCIALIST COMMIE KYS

It's as if they can't understand the complexities in our economy, let alone our tax system, and have to cater to a flat tax to simplify their worldviews

>>127506695
>the working class are parasites
>the billionaires looting the country, flooding it with immigrants, and selling all the public infrastructure and real estate to the Chinese aren't

Typical r/the donald logic

>>127506453
>>127506453
>This is a funny assumption. You think that a poor person has the ability to save money, let alone invest it. If we had a universal sales tax like your shit-for-brain fellow anons are, they would have to spend more per income, which means less money to save.

just because you are terrible at money management doesnt mean other people are. stop projecting, obviously you have never met thrifty chinks before. ever heard of making sacrifices like the saying "eating ramen"? if people are so destitute they cant afford sales taxes on non-essential goods, then maybe they shouldn't be purchasing them. why is it my job to pay for their ipod? we already addressed your concern with food and housing. there are already programs in place from the government to give people with zero means some shelter and food. explain again why poor people deserve my money given to them so they can buy iphones and nike basketball shoes

>>127506952
I find it ironic that these libertarians and conservatives pushing for a flat tax, UBI, and other such nonsense are basically supporting the very leftist billionaires they pretend to fight.

>>127501009
You realize that corporate tax is a flat tax though?

>>127501915
the poor will literally have to become slaves

>>127501009
Flat tax for the rich and middle class and no taxes on the poor is a perfect combination.

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>>127507144
>Stop Eating Food

and you have the gall to call other people communists

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>>127506453
also i see you weren't man enough to explain the logic behind taxing my income multiple times in my post here >>127504830


why does my paycheck get taxed on income, then that same money is now taxed on sales, then that same money is taxed again when i sell the goods i bought, then that same money is taxed again when i attempt to invest it, then its taxed again when i attempt to pass it down to my children

yeah that seems real fair,all while the poor people at the bottom pay nothing and have no motivation to leave the bottom because of your socialist redistribution policies

>>127506218
Again, why are we paying taxes? For the government to spend. If we decreased government spending we could lower taxes across the board and have a flat tax. Surly this isn't that hard to understand. I can see an argument against excessive VAT, but I can't see an argument against a flat tax that doesn't involve "muh working class" or "muh millionaires and billionaires". Just cut welfare completely, privatize schools, and healthcare, revise military spending and make cut backs where it is possible, only have congress, the police force, the military, the fire brigade and maybe certain jobs around licencing and regulation inspection government owned, are you telling me we couldn't reduce taxes if we did that?

>>127507402
so you ignored the entire post and just made a false statement, congrats. you either have shit reading comprehension or are a diehard communist shill

>>127501009
hey moron those big corporations already have an army of lawyers and lobbies to create/exploit loopholes and don't pay any tax as it is. a flat tax would be a way of shifting the burden from middle class to them.

>>127507144
>Non-essential Goods
I was referring to essential goods you fucking dipshit. And even if I was referring to non-essential goods, what makes you think that a person should not have the same leisures as those in the upper-class? Fuck those poor people for not working every day for 12 hours and wanting to have some time and leisure. Right?

>>127507540
>>127507540
why do you want to decrease government spending? we need to bring migrants and refugees over to maintain or expand our spending otherwise our taxes might go down

>>127506966
It's not the same millionaires and billionaires is it? You can still have a nationalist system with low taxation.

>>127507334

Actually thats the tactic they prefer since they pay less while the middle class reverts to low, creating cheaper labor.

>>127507611
i already said it makes sense to not tax things like food. there are states in america that dont have sales tax on groceries, even in communist kalifornia. so again, a flat sales tax would not be affecting these poor people and laws could easily be enacted to ensure that

>>127507665
Kek.

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>>127507588
No, that's completely wrong, the very wealthy already pay a disproportionate share in taxes of their earnings.

Flat Tax is the best. The truth is that in our current progressive tax code there are so many loopholes put into it that the rich use to avoid paying taxes. You just need to afford for a bajillion lawyers.
Flat tax makes everything simple and everyone pays.

>>127507611
why dont you start by giving away everything you have right now and put yourself at the bottom to be equal with the poor people. its only fair. what is this notion of expectation that entitles other people to my hard work? you are literal cancer faggot

>>127504898
>ctrl+f "theft"
>this is the only result
Sad!

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>>127507871
> The truth is that in our current progressive tax code there are so many loopholes put into it that the rich use to avoid paying taxes.
No, that's wrong, see >>127507867 and pic related.

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>>127502562
>Also considering the size and expenditures of most governments at this point you'd need an extremely high flat tax rate on everybody, probably 36-45% or so

You in charge of math

>>127505570
> or the upkeep of his business.
You almost had a perfect argument.

Taxes have been around since the beginning of civilization. Everyone, even Hitler has used them. Only now that the corporations are more powerful than the state are taxes unpopular. If you're against taxes you are an anarchist retard who is clueless about economics.

>>127507867
yea as the absolute numbers but proportionally but they control half of the wealth and don't forget that social security and Medicare/medicade are taxed separately and do not count as income tax.

>>127501009
any income tax should be considered theft. they should replace it with a national sales tax.

>>127507584
>if you can't afford the high taxes that I want to implement on you just stop eating food
>also if you don't agree with the sky high taxes I want to enforce on you you are a communist

Jesus Christ

What bizarro world do you live in?

>>127507540
> why are we paying taxes? For the government to spend.

Uh, no. The government constantly spends money it doesn't have.. This is called "deficit spending". Taxes mainly exist to limit the money supply/control the value of the currency.

>If we decreased government spending

Actually in the current economy limiting government spending would be retarded considering there is little inflation. We should be cutting taxes and increasing government spending.

>t I can't see an argument against a flat tax that doesn't involve "muh working class"

So you can't see an argument UNLESS someone brings up basic reality?

>cut welfare completely, privatize schools, and healthcare,

You realize the government still pays for "privatized" schools and healthcare right?

They are just paying a corporation to do the job.

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>>127507867
It's almost as if the bottom 95% has far less money and therefore can't pay taxes because they aren't making money anymore.

really makes you think

Rich people are rich because they are the most competent people at using resources to produce goods for everyone.

Why the fuck should we take these resources away from the rich people and give them to the poor incompetent people who don't have a clue about producing anything worthwhile?

If anything, rich people should not be taxed at all and all the poorfags should be taxed to death to fuel the rich.

>>127508655
Ok, that's not mutually exclusive with what I was saying nor does it prove it wrong.

>>127508475
Hayekian economics.

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>>127508777

>you should pay more taxes despite making less money

brilliant fucking logic

There is a way that the Rich do not pay taxes with our current tax code because technically they aren't 'receiving' an income. This article explains some of it.

http://www.salon.com/2013/04/12/10_tax_dodges_that_help_the_rich_get_richer_partner/

>>127508920
Always use archive.is on sites with a reputation for trash journalism and clickbait. Thank you.

https://archive.is/2ZsNC <- salon.com article

>>127501744
You want to explain why instead of insulting, you partisan ape?

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>>127508822
Austrian economics and sanity don't mix

>>127508746
Rich people are rich because they sell goods/services to poor, middle class, etc. people. Without poor people buying their shit the rich wouldn't be rich. A lot of rich people support certain social welfare policies because it increases the spending power of poorer people meaning their businesses make more money. Just look at how much Wal-Mart benefits from social programs, it makes them able to pay employees less since they can be covered under tons of social programs for people making little money, and programs like EBT, SNAP, TANF, etc. make up a large portion of their purchases.

>>127508475
its almost like liberals cant manage the small amount of money in their households, and somehow think they know how to manage the monetary policies of a nation

>>127508831
I literally never said that and have been arguing against a flat tax this entire thread and you're a retard.
>>127508947
This thread is already full of explanations, like marginal utility among others.

>>127508920
https://www.google.com/#safe=off&q=income+tax+loopholes+for+the+rich

This tooo..

Basically, our current tax code is a joke. When the rich talk about 'charity' or 'not leaving money for their kids'. It's a lie. They're using a corrupt code to not pay their fair share.

>>127508475
>the government still pays for "privatized" schools and healthcare right?
thats why they're so shit, we know

>>127503832
Rich people don't pay fucking taxes you idiot, the middle class get's hit the most with progressive taxes. The weak and stupid live on the back of the smart and ambitious, guess that's great to you, commie parasite

>>127509156
So a flat tax would work, because it would get rid of all the loopholes.

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>>127509011
Kys

>>127509011
Why not, perhaps they aren't kikey enough for your taste?

>>127509019
This

>>127503917
> Hey that guy is richer than me, let's steal what he has! That will be fair!
You just won one free helicopter ride John

>>127506966
Typical commie, trying to talk your way out of things. Good thing you can't talk your way out of a noose fag boi

>>127508831
Jesus fuck, that graph.
>During the 2001 recession, the earnings of the top 1% merely doubled.
>Meanwhile the bottom 90% saw their income fall.
>It was already falling for the bottom 40%

This is a straight up transfer of wealth from the poor to the rich. I'm going to punch the next cunt who wants to lower taxes.

>>127509317
> Wanting to construct actual empirical models mathematically is somehow a Jewish thing
> Ludwig Von Mises wasn't a Jew
> Ayn Rand wasn't a Jew
> Walter Block isn't a Jew

What about an even fairer system, where instead of a flat rate, everyone pays a flat amount? If you can't afford the amount, you get evicted from the walled society and aren't allowed to use any of the amenities/services.

Has a flat amount tax ever been tried? Surely this is the fairest system.

>>127501915
No one who supports the idea actually wants a flat tax.

>>127509151
Yes I'm sure it is, but the statement I'm referring to is not.

>>127509019
Wrong

the upper class in the country, since the 1970s and the advent of corporate raiding have mostly gotten rich by looting companies and gambling their "winnings" on wall street and the real estate market. This has led to the endless destructive bubbles and insane consumer debt we see today.

>>127509134
>hurr lebruls

what like billionaire George Soros, or Mark Zuckerberg, or Michael Bloomberg?
>>127509428
>hey that guy works for a living, better raise his taxes

>>127509494
>hurr stop talkin them wurds at me commie

He said as he openly shilled for jewish billionaires like Mark Zuckerberg to have their taxes cut by millions of dollars

Libertarians are the best goyim

>>127509711
Poll taxes. You could try to resurrect them but there's no way they'd cover modern governmental expenditures.

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>>127509548
Here's an even more insane graph

look at the amount of consumer debt to GDP

>>127509663
A jew isn't a kike, not necessarily
A kike entrenches himself in monopolies by legislation, tries his luck with quasi-scientific monetary policy and other metastases of contemporary humanity

>>127509836
> Wrong

the upper class in the country, since the 1970s and the advent of corporate raiding have mostly gotten rich by looting companies and gambling their "winnings" on wall street and the real estate market.
Can you even quantify that statement or are you just expecting me to assume it's true? Even then it isn't like investing in the stock market is inherently bad, it generates wealth by moving capital around to companies that best generate wealth within the marketplace. People who shit on financiers, bankers, etc. just don't understand the economy or how important they are to it.
> This has led to the endless destructive bubbles and insane consumer debt we see today.
Bubbles have literally always happened and consumer debt increasing has been a trend going back a long time, it's probably just an inherent quality of capitalism. Debt isn't universally bad though, there's nothing inherently wrong with people borrowing money.

>>127501009
>i care about the middle class
>supports mass imigration, aipac wars, and multinational outsourcing

>>127504139
>economic freedom
>let the elites steal the last milk cup from your first born
And let them eat cake.
The next revolution will be bloodiest.

>>127501009
>fucked over by those big corporations
(you) got to protect the brand
Trump Tax
This is a rough up to the moment total of what tax payers are paying for Donald Trump's personal life:
security for his New York City home, vacations, travel for his grown children, and more.
https://archive.is/s3Z4X

now go back to sleep

>>127510327
> Just nationalize the entire economy
> That will work out great
> It's not like this has failed horribly before

>>127510573
free market niggers are going to get btfo when automation kicks in if they havn't started giving our large amounts of wealth and good

>>127509836
Also,
> the upper class in the country, since the 1970s and the advent of corporate raiding have mostly gotten rich by looting companies and gambling their "winnings" on wall street
> Gambling their winnings on Wall Street
Okay, how do those companies on Wall Street make money? By selling goods/services to poor, middle class, etc. people, either directly, or indirectly through multiple series of steps that's what it fundamentally breaks down to. People become wealthy by selling to people, that's what the market breaks down to.

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>>127510165
>Can you even quantify that statement or are you just expecting me to assume it's true?

I assume you've heard of corporate raiders like Michael Milken who used debt leveraging to takeover companies and liquidate them. This isn't exactly a secret

>stock market generates wealth

No it doesn't. It mainly exists to gamble on stock prices. Gambling money doesn't "create" anything.


>People who shit on financiers, bankers, etc. just don't understand the economy or how important they are to it.
>People who shit on leeches just don't understand how important it is to have your blood sucked

>Bubbles have literally always happened
Only when the conditions for bubbles are created

>consumer debt increasing has been a trend going back a long time

To the 80s-90s

>there's nothing inherently wrong with people borrowing money.

It is when going into debt is the only way they can maintain their living standards

which is what has happened since the 80s-90s

You need to go into debt just to afford a house/car/education/healthcare/whatever

The only reason this is happening is because of all the loose lending policies created by wall street (such as sub prime mortgages), mass immigration increasing real estate prices, outsourcing to asia decreasing wages. All of this could be avoided with fairly simple government policies.

>>127510883
Well the capital owners will be the ones with the means to defend their property and will have the government on their side since they'll be the primary ones funding it so poor people will basically be given Basic Income and controlled by the wealthy or there will be some form of direct/indirect mass culling. Alternatively if strong AI becomes a thing it will figure out how to manage the economy better than humans most likely and we'll go full technocratic authoritarian communist.

>>127509836
You can't fucking comprehend that when owning a multinational company there's no fucking way to tax such a person (miliionare, billionare)?
Other than it's simply immoral, i.e.

> That guy has two cars, more than the average so he won't feel it much when we steal one of them!

Typical commie logic, springle some fancy virtue signaling to hide simple thievery

>>127511039
>Okay, how do those companies on Wall Street make money?

They don't

Corporate profits have been tanking for decades

Instead what CEOs do is practice this policy called "stock buybacks" where they buy their own stock in order to increase the price of shares in their company.

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/us-companies-spent-record-amount-on-buybacks-over-past-12-months-2016-06-22

This means big fat bonuses for CEOs and little else. No money is actually invested in the company to improve. In addition thanks to the FED printing trillions and giving it to the banks and then lowering interest rates to almost 0 after 2008, money flows into wall street both from the banks, and from people desperate for a hedge against inflation.

>>127502656
>flat taxes aren't unfair
>cost of living means lower classes get fucked over
lmao at your dumb ass, famalamborghini

>>127510883
free market niggers are going to get btfo when the steam engine kicks in if they havn't started giving our large amounts of wealth and good

>>127511354
>It's immoral to tax billionaires therefore you must raise taxes on the working class
>who cares if workers can't afford food or rent because we tax them so much

lol?

>>127511101
> I assume you've heard of corporate raiders like Michael Milken who used debt leveraging to takeover companies and liquidate them. This isn't exactly a secret
You didn't provide any evidence at all that that's how most wealthy people made their money.
> Stock market doesn't generate wealth
Yes it does, it efficiently allocates capital to companies that are producing things which there is a consumer demand for, which is pretty much what wealth is, the accumulation of things people want and the things necessary to produce those things.
> Only when the conditions for bubbles are created
You mean always? The business cycle is a thing, there will always be cycles of bubbles, booms, busts, etc. unless some AI can magically supermanage the economy nearly perfectly and surpass that.
> Financiers
> Bankers
> Leeches
Effectively allocating capital is what keeps the economy running. New businesses need loans or credit to start so they can produce new products/services, established businesses need loans or credit to purchase things which expand their ability to produce or accrue further capital and become more economically efficient, etc.

>>127501915
Flat tax is unsustainable economically because eventually a single businessman will own nearly 100% of the businesses and properties in the whole system.

>>127511729
1. "taxing the billionares" is just a meme, virtue signaling and way to get votes out of idiots like you. There is no effective way of taxating income of people that have such resources at hand

2. Maybe simply don't tax the workes and the billionares by reducing the state and privatize most of it?

3. Not matter how rich someone is, thievery is thievery. You're just using commie anegdotes to obtain a moral high-ground for your thievery

>>127511504
20% VAT is jack shit. Oh wow, £3 packet of strawberries now costs £3.60. Get over yourself.

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>>127511488
> They don't
> Corporate profits have been tanking for decades
You're wrong.
https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/corporate-profits

>>127511540
The Russian empire will last forever, large revolutions are impossible. And yes they did get btfo when the steam engines kicked in people formed unions and fucked them over so they had to give workers fair rights

>>127512273
> Being able to realize that
> Not simultaneously realizing that when automation happens workers will barely even be fucking needed anymore and capitalists can just completely fuck them

>>127511951
How the fuck does flat tax lead to absolute monopoly and how the fuck would graduated tax prevent it?

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>>127511793
>evidence at all that that's how most wealthy people made their money.

Well corporate raiding is one way of looting hte economy. The main way people loot the economy is through real estate though

http://www.businessnewsdaily.com/2871-how-most-millionaires-got-rich.html

The main way you get wealthy in the west is to be born into money and then to invest in real estate.

>it efficiently allocates capital

Companies don't use money from stocks to finance capital investment, they borrow it or use their own money.

>the accumulation of things

Financial companies don't "create" anything

FIRE (Finance, Insurance, Real Estate) are entirely parasitic industries and produce nothing.

>Effectively allocating capital

That's a euphemism for stealing money from the productive class through usury.

>>127512059
>There is no effective way of taxating income of billionaires
>therefore don't even try

Imagine if you designed all laws that way?

>by reducing the state and privatize most of it?

>just dismantle the state so banks can run the world

wow what a great idea. I can't wait to be a slave to Goldman Sachs.

>thievery is thievery

But not when banks do it apparently.


>>127512094
That counts FIRE corporations

I'm referring to industrial companies, not parasitic finance.

>>127501915
Government is made up of people. Government wants to maximize (revenue - cost) for its goods and services.
If a government can price discriminate by charging people with a higher willingness to pay higher taxes (usually richer people who have more at stake in the system), they should to maximize revenue. This sort of "government" is what would actually exist in an ancap society.

>>127512273
Simply the whole fabric of the work market will change, as it always did with every technological revolution.
You really think someone 50 years ago would think they would be companies tasked with managing social web site content or some other abstract shit like that? Probably in the first generation the workers will be fucked, after that whole humanity should be uplifted

>>127512525
And when the workers are barely needed they won't have jobs and will be starving and will fuck the Jews so hard

The 99% are going to murder and rape the 1% so hard, when people get Hungary governments topple. The French, The Russians and soon the West.

>>127512813
I can now clearly see you dont comprehend why financial companies exist and what they do. And what really money is, or more importantly what it represents.

>>127512921
>everyone who supports flat tax is ancap
Well the US has never been ancap but what you described is the government we've had for decades. Look how well that worked for us.

>>127512943
44% of all Australian jobs are under threat from automation and in the next 20% years 1 in 5 jobs will be automated.

We're not talking about a few thousand lower class workers getting ousted with the steam engine. We're talking almost half a nations entire population and millions millions of people with no jobs. You better give them some profit and goods or get lynched soon enough

>>127512813
> Companies don't use money from stocks to finance capital investment, they borrow it or use their own money.
Increased company net worth in the form of stock allows them to get much more borrowed money or get it at lower rates due to more bargaining power in the form of collateral.
> Insurance is useless
> Financial companies don't create anything
Again, they're a second level abstracted industry which redirects resources efficiently.
> That's a euphemism for stealing money from the productive class through usury.
Usury is a dysphemism for people who don't understand the time value of money or how important interest is the economy.
> Real Estate, Finance, and Insurance are Parasitic
Explain to me how exactly Real Estate and Insurance are parasitic and not just normal industries since you've already given your opinion on finance. Also literally all economies shift away from manufacturing and being goods-based towards being service-based as they develop. Is marketing "parasitic" in your opinion? Advertising? Producing entertainment? That's not producing goods which further capital production. How do you define parasitic exactly?

>>127513430
If you actually read my post, you would see there WOULDN'T be a flat tax in ancap society.

>>127511101
>All of this could be avoided with fairly simple government policies
You can't fix collapsing capitalism with "government policies". A new system, a clean slate is needed. But before it gets better, it's gonna get much much worse. Hold onto your assholes, cause the raping is gonna be ugly.

>>127503291
How is marginal utility retarded?

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>>127512808
>How the fuck does flat tax lead to absolute monopoly
Pic related.
Money makes it easier to get more money. A billionaire can get another billion easier than someone with 100millions. Flat tax just makes whoever is in the richest brackets get even more money compared to everyone else. Long term, assuming that wealth gets passed to a single heir, means that eventually the richest persons in the world will just have tens of billions above everyone else.

>graduated tax prevent it
By taxing above a X value at 99%. It effectively forbids someone of getting 100% of all property.

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>>127513148
I assume you think "real money" is a shiny rock dug out of the ground

>>127513571
>Increased company net worth allows them to get much more borrowed money

wrong. Banks create money from nothing, so stock prices are irrelevant

>important interest is the economy.

It's important because it robs the productive of their hard earned money

> Real Estate and Insurance are parasitic and not just normal industries

They produce nothing. They are extractive parasites.

>How do you define parasitic exactly?

>In biology/ecology, parasitism is a non-mutual relationship between species, where one species, the parasite, benefits at the expense of the other, the host

>>127514698
> Real estate produces nothing
> What is housing
> People don't need houses
And that's fucking nothing
> People don't need insurance
How fucking old are you and have you ever tried doing anything slightly complicated? Insurance is extremely important to pretty much everything.

>>127515075
Real estate produces nothing because he is using the "buy low, sell high" thinking. Same way as after the first opening, stocks produce nothing.

Real estate = buying a house priced 1million and waiting until it is worth 1,5million to sell. Nothing was produced. No job was created. If a movie was filmed in the street of the house it would drive the price up without any physical change in the house.

Things that produce nothing are worth less for the society.

>real estate mogul gets 10 million dollars of profit
>businessman gets 10 million dollars of profit
One employs lots of people, one produces things, one creates """"value"""" while the other just buy stuff and wait until it gets more expensive and sell it, generating no riches for the nation.

>>127501744
Fuck income tax. It's in place to be abused. Get rid of it and jack up sales taxes if corruption and abuse of the system are truly a concern for you.

>>127501009
Land value tax is the best system desu.

>>127514129
The idea the same amount of money is worth more because the person owning it has less money overall and should therefore be taxed less is a retarded, socialist idea.

>>127515731
> A poor person has a lower supply of money than a rich person
> Lower supply = higher value
> Supply and Demand is retarded

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>>127501009
this kid is retarded.

>>127501009
Federal taxes are a meme. We didn't have them for 150 years and the country worked fine.

>>127501009
>Middle class
let them get steam rolled. nothing but whiners, virtue signalers, hipsters, smug cunts and (above all else) pussies.

Fuck the fucking middle class. Working Class pride

>>127515517
It has that value to the person buying it though, which is the whole fucking point of the economy, is it not? To distribute things to people who value them? Not only that but the economy is composed of different people who value different things, you may not consider some action X as generating value, but the people doing the action most certainly do or they would not be doing it. Even then all economic transactions are taxed or result in some capital/wealth accumulation that is taxable so it does generate value for the society in the form of taxes.