Eucharist

>believes all the magical shit in the bible
>oh except for this but that's okay

>>126102001
>you have to believe
>believing is a choice
>facts are a choice*

please gargle balls

It is a Dogma of Roman Catholicism and is given as a belief that must be believed as a faithful Catholic. Contrast with Doctrines, which are taught but not as a necessary belief.

Given that the Church doesn't excommunicate for disagreement with dogma, it is 'required' but you can probably pretend to be a loyal Catholic and still promulgate that the Eucharist isn't literal with no ministerial penalty.
I can't speak to Orthodoxy.

>>126102872
Thank you for an actual answer. Trying to learn some things about Christianity and pol is the best place I have found to discuss religion. Raised in an atheist household so I am ignorant of many Christian beliefs. Is the Bible also to be taken literally or are some stories more of a lesson than a literal happening?

>>126102872
>Given that the Church doesn't excommunicate for disagreement with dogma, it is 'required' but you can probably pretend to be a loyal Catholic and still promulgate that the Eucharist isn't literal with no ministerial penalty.
Right, only divine penalty. Don't take the Eucharist if you are convinced it is not His Body.

>>126103932
As a child I went to a service with my grandma. My mom and I didn't know anything about the Eucharist and took it because we saw everyone else doing it (we weren't right beside my grandma so she didn't get to inform us not to). What is divine penalty and does it apply to what we did?

>>126103516
>Is the Bible also to be taken literally or are some stories more of a lesson than a literal happening?
Opinions differ

>>126104263
You are not supposed to take the Eucharist if you are not a member of the Church, or are in a state of Mortal Sin. Taking it despite a sincere and utter conviction it is otherwise, (opposed to mere doubt which all people experience) would be a sin. The degree of this is probably dependent on whether you were baptized, and your own level of ignorance on the subject (not knowing what you are doing would likely diminish your guilt.) But the point still stands, if God exists as believed by the Catholic Church, you have offended the Eucharist, and would need to confess this. The Divine punishment is only known to the Divine, so I can't speak on the specifics.

>>126104770
Does it differ by denomination or do people of the same group, let's say Catholics, have differing opinions within the same church?

Former Catholic here. It is declared to be literal heresy to say it is otherwise. Catholics literally believe their priest is a shaman with alchemist abilities. Dumbest form of Christianity by far.

>>126105060
If I am not Catholic but would like to confess just to be respectful, would that be a good or bad thing?

>>126105281
Confession to a priest was only implemented by Jews so they could have power to blackmail those in powerful positions. Only Jesus is allowed to forgive sins.

>>126105082
>Does it differ by denomination or do people of the same group, let's say Catholics, have differing opinions within the same church?
Both. Varies among Churches, but also within Churches.
Baptists are the most literal. Catholics probably around the middle.

>>126105265
God performs the transubstantiation. I don't see why it's hard to believe in, if one believes in God.

>>126105453
Jesus grants the power to forgive sins to Peter, who founded the Catholic Church.

>>126105281
Its a interesting sentiment, to be honest. If you don't believe in God and the Eucharist, at least as described in Catholic theology, why bother making amends? The divine punishment would not exist, so you would only be making amends for offending a human belief system, rather then a Divine Truth.

I am catholic however so of course I think that it is a good sentiment that you want to make amends, and moreover view it you, deep down, coming to terms with the actual Truth in the universe. Apologize to God personally, but for a true, valid confession you have to be brought into the church, so convert, heretic.

>>126105265
>Catholics literally believe their priest is a shaman with alchemist abilities
Its understood that the priest accomplishes this with the aid of the Holy Spirit, as are all Sacraments. To believe that God can alter the nature of things that He Himself creates is entirely consistent with omnipotency.

>>126105891
Because it denies all empiricism and reason. Its one thing to be faithful, it's another to be completely in denial.

>>126105979
Peter in his bravado granted himself that power. He was Jewish after all, even if he loved Christ.

>>126106169
What empiricism?
Catholics don't deny that the outward matter and appearance of the wine is as wine. So empiricism can't say anything about it

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>>126102001
>not being a proddie

>>125637346

>>126106169
No doubt many felt the same in regards dying Christ. "He is a good man sure, but not God."

>>126106295
So you don't believe the Scriptures?

>>126105979
No He didn't. Confessions, the pope, etc. are not biblical in any way. Catholicism is cancer.

>>126103516

are you twelve

>>126106723
Read John 20:22-23

>>126106723
Those things aren't as important to Catholics as you think. Yes, even the pope. Seriously.

>>126106585
Jesus was god. Saying bread and wine are literally flesh and blood is false equivalence. It doesn't add anything at all and is a bizarre ritual. Knock it off.

>>126106440
Wtf how can something be outwardly and inwardly different? What does that even mean? All I see is words. Parroting different ways of saying the same thing doesn't change that you're speaking gibberish

>>126107319
Read John 6:51-57

>>126106645
I believe that it would be better to stop trying to grasp reality from a fucking book and live here on earth.

>>126102001
>Is believing that the bread and wine literally turns into the body and blood required as Orthodox and Catholic?

No its cannibalism. Not really my fetish but meh to each his own.

>>126107319
>Jesus was god. Saying bread and wine are literally flesh and blood is false equivalence. It doesn't add anything at all and is a bizarre ritual. Knock it off.
Right, and you have yet to address my point. To every empirical measurement, the bloodied, wounded, and eventually dead body of Christ would surely have been denied to be God. Yet we know otherwise. This is the arrogance of protestants, ion the sense that you only want enough mystery until it becomes uncomfortable for you.

Christ humbles himself though his Incarnation? Fine.
Christ humbles himself by being born, not made like Adam? Fine.
Christ humbles himself by being a child? Fine.
Christ humbles himself though poverty? Fine.
Christ humbles himself by being baptized by John? Fine
Christ humbles himself by taking our sins upon his shoulders? Fine
Christ humbles himself by being mocked, abused, tortured, spit on, whipped, beaten? Fine
Christ humbles himself by being subject to world authority, and a false trial at that?
Christ humbles himself by dying, naked, on a cross, between thieves? Fine.
Christ humbles himself by having his heart ruptured? Fine
Christ humbles himself by becoming the Eucharist? NO this is too far!


Christ's humility is utterly complete and unfathomable. We worship this expression of mercy made consummate in the Eucharist.

>>126107676
Have you even read it, then? You shouldn't express opinions on who's allowed to forgive sins if you aren't sure

The belief is a transformation in substance not appearance. It transforms in a manner present to us.

>>126107614
Just did. He's speaking about spiritual hunger and spiritual thirst. You cannot actually think that bible is literal surface level bullshit. A child would read this and take it literally. God does not call us to take life at the surface level. Please try to do better and learn what metaphor is.

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>>126102001

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>>126108363

>>126102001
This will probably be buried in amongst the waves of shit but whatever:
I went to a Catholic philosophy lecture a few weeks ago and they told me that the belief is that the belief in objects is generally that of substance and properties. If you see an apple, it has a property of being green, another of being kinda round, around 100 grams and so on. It's substance is of being an apple. For example, say you changed a property of the apple, and now it was red instead of green, the property would have changed but the substance there would still be an apple.

Anyway, it is believed that when we take the bread and wine, their Properties stay the same as the bread and wine, however when they are the Eucharist, they now have the substance of body and blood

>>126108206
Exactly how does being clumps of bread and wine humble christ? Sounds like materialism to me.

>>126107511
It's mysterious to everyone.
But it must be similar to how the underlying reality of Jesus was God, though the outward signs were of man. The underlying reality of the wine is the blood of Jesus

>>126108480
The same way His Incarnation does, unless you are so utterly convinced of the worth of man's nature you DON'T think becoming a man is humbling for God.

Also, you sound like gnostic. Christ had a physical body.

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>>126108395
>are interracial marriages valid in the eyes of the Lord?
>not expressly confirmed

WRONG WRONG WRONG

>Mocking pol for calling cucks racemixing degenerates
OY vey

>>126108286
It's not a metaphor. He rather had His followers desert Him (thinking him a cannibal) than relent. He's humble, not proud; He would have explained it if they'd just misread Him.
Instead he asked f his apostles- 'will you also leave me?'

>>126102001
It's a representation. It isn't literal.

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>>126108948
PART 1

People want to claim that the bible says it's okay to have an interracial marriage because the reason for forbidding it is based off of religious conversion.

Note that the only exceptions to these marriages werent true interracial marriages.

Boaz married a white woman, a Moabite
And Moses marriaed also a white woman, a Midianite (children of Abraham) who lived in Cush.

I can go on but every exception is a white person.

Furthermore in Ezra 10 marriage with foreign women is forbidden, Ezra commands all the Jewish men to divorce their forign wives and "put away" their children. Regardless of their RELIGION


>We have broken faith with our God and have married foreign women from the peoples of the land, but even now there is hope for Israel in spite of this.
>Therefore let us make a covenant with our God to put away all these wives and their children, according to the counsel of my lord and of those who tremble at the commandment of our God, and let it be done according to the Law.


Nehemiah also mentions this also and the loss of language with it.


>In those days also I saw the Jews who had married women of Ashdod, Ammon, and Moab. 24 And half of their children spoke the language of Ashdod, and they could not speak the language of Judah, but only the language of each people. 25 And I confronted them and cursed them and beat some of them and pulled out their hair. And I made them take an oath in the name of God, saying, “You shall not give your daughters to their sons, or take their daughters for your sons or for yourselves. 26 Did not Solomon king of Israel sin on account of such women? Among the many nations there was no king like him, and he was beloved by his God, and God made him king over all Israel. Nevertheless, foreign women made even him to sin. 27 Shall we then listen to you and do all this great evil and act treacherously against our God by marrying foreign women?”

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Yes. It is absolutely central to the belief of true christianity. If you have doubts look at this: https://www.churchmilitant.com/news/article/eucharistic-miracle-confirmed-in-poland

btw this proves that catholicism is the true religion and all other religions are falsehood.

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PART 2
This is in Joshua don't you think this curse applies to our nations today?

>For if you turn back and cling to the remnant of these nations remaining among you and make marriages with them, so that you associate with them and they with you, 13 know for certain that the Lord your God will no longer drive out these nations before you, but they shall be a snare and a trap for you, a whip on your sides and thorns in your eyes, until you perish from off this good ground that the Lord your God has given you.

Do you think Jamal and Achmed would lead your sons out of degeneracy and to the light of God?

No


>Thou shalt not sow thy vineyard with divers seeds: lest the fruit of thy seed which thou hast sown, and the fruit of thy vineyard, be defiled.

>“You shall keep my statutes. You shall not let your cattle breed with a different kind. You shall not sow your field with two kinds of seed.

Kind means species.

Doth God take care for cattle and seed?
1 Corinthians 9:9 - we are to live by the spirit of the law.
>For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?

>Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

>Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
>This is the first and great commandment.
>And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
>On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

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PART 3

>Thus I cleansed them from everything foreign, and I established the duties of the priests and Levites, each in his work.

Additionally, religious conversion is not enough except for a very select few WHITE women. Marriage with another tribe is forbidden on the basis of their history and treatment of God's people. Blacks and Arabs are a cruel lot and always have been. Arabs are not spoken well of in the Scriptures. No verses explicitly banned marriage with them, simply because no Israelite would never think of even doing it. The only temptation was with the Canaanites and a handful of other groups.


>Thus saith the Lord of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.

>Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

Literally every shitskin group you can think of has been totally wicked to White nations. They have sinned the sin of Amelek. Therefore it is totally totally totally fucking BANNED.

Furthermore My interpretation has the backing of Ezra and Nehemiah who ADDED to those laws. Forbidding Egyptian marriages, by name, and ALL foreign marriages regardless of religious conversion. Which is more than "just Canaanites who are converted". If it was true that you can marry anyone except pagan Canaanites then God would have struck down Ezra and Nehemiah, instead his words today are SCRIPTURE.

Furthurmore Noah cursed Ham, and his sons of Canaan with a slave mentality. Because Ham had it, and like father like son. With the exception of his decedents who were in Egypt and WHITE (remember Ramasees had red hair). It would be fucking wrong to marry the children of Ham, because you will almost almost almost always give that curse to your own son.

This curse is very real because the Arabs are at least half Hamite, the blacks and Chinks are full hamites. And poo in the loos.

>>126103516
the bible is susceptible of different interpretations, it is up to you and your faith to take the lesson in your way

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PART 4

>But of the cities of these people, which the Lord thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:

>But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the Lord thy God hath commanded thee:

>When the Lord thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou;
>And when the Lord thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them:
>Neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son.

>When thou art come into the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations.
>There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch.
>Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
>For all that do these things are an abomination unto the Lord: and because of these abominations the Lord thy God doth drive them out from before thee.
>Thou shalt be perfect with the Lord thy God.
>For these nations, which thou shalt possess, hearkened unto observers of times, and unto diviners: but as for thee, the Lord thy God hath not suffered thee so to do.

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PART 5

>Now go and smite Aguyk, and utterly destroy all that they (the Amelekites) have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

-You have a right as a nation to completely remove a race of men who are ruining yours.


> Neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son.

-Furthermore you should not marry into them

>Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them, after that they be destroyed from before thee; and that thou enquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise. Thou shalt not do so unto the Lord thy God: for every abomination to the Lord, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods.

-Furthermore you should not do worship in degeneracy, meaning as they do.

>Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.

-The only white women that submit will be Christians.

>He that is wounded in the stones, or hath his privy member cut off, shall not enter into the congregation of the Lord.

-Cuckoldry is forbidden.

>A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the Lord; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the Lord.

-"Bastard" is the hebrew translation for MAMZER which literally means in hebrew racemixed child

>When the most High divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel.

-You as a race and tribe are to have separate, unique, and individual nations. It is demanded by God

>Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

-The Messiah said we are to obey the Law

>>126107267
This is a lie. The pope's first duty is to promote the church so that it gains power. Sickening institution.
>>126108547
I actually like that you are admitting it is myterious (ie doesn't make sense) so why claim that man knows it meant Jesus wants us to digest his body in our stomachs then shit him out our assholes? Wtf?
>>126107987
This. All it does in reality is turn away the more intelligent because they see it as bizarre and dogmatic like islam. More damage than good is done.
>>126108238
The lessons of the bible are self evident to those that are pure and humble and have no hubris.
>>126108977
This tells me you aren't very bright. Christ only spoke in metaphors so that the truths revealed were directly proportional to your logical and spiritual intelligence. He did not want people to eat him literally.
>>126109031
This
>>126109112
Fuck right off "muh chosen people" meme is a cancer on the world.

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>>126102001

Be careful senpai, taking communion in an unworthy manner is the sentence of death.

So it is very serious. Think about it carefully.
And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.

25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.

27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.

29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep (are dead).

>>126110367
>he thinks God isn't mysterious
>he thinks there aren't thousands of Bible interpretations, each claiming to be obvious (hence thousands of Prot churches)
>he thinks he's smarter than the early Church Fathers (https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/the-real-presence)

Also see https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+11:23-29
Not referring to faith, but actually drinking the blood of the covenant

>>126111203
Due to the progression of education and short term evolution of humanitiy's culture, I am in fact way smarter than the early church founders. My interpretation is the only correct interpretation.

>>126110367
>I actually like that you are admitting it is myterious
If you think that the Trinity, or the Hypostatic union is not mysterious then buddy, either your God, in heaven, or incredibly arrogant. The Divine Nature is unknowable to men, to assume otherwise is spiritual pride.
>so why claim that man knows it meant Jesus wants us to digest his body in our stomachs
its is a physical and spiritual transformation, as Christ is both a physical and spiritual redeemer. Moreover, Christ's incarnation, again, is evidence that the salvation requires corporality.

>This. All it does in reality is turn away the more intelligent because they see it as bizarre and dogmatic like islam. More damage than good is done.

this is funny in light of this

>The lessons of the bible are self evident to those that are pure and humble and have no hubris.

you have hubris by assuming everything must be comfortable to your sensibilities. God desires us to be like children in maters regarding Him.

>>126111419
>Due to the progression of education and short term evolution of humanitiy's culture, I am in fact way smarter than the early church founders. My interpretation is the only correct interpretation.

and now I am convinced you are baiting us.

>>126102310
"Magic" is just unknown means. You sound like a neanderthal scoffing at the idea of modern technology.

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>>126110367
>Jesus wants us to digest his body in our stomachs then shit him out our assholes? Wtf?

BLASPHEMY Be polite about the Lord plebbit.

>Christ only spoke in metaphors

Jesus told Peter to buy two swords and he did. That's not a metaphor. Pleb

>>126111501
And what evidence do you have that I am not God? I assume you don't believe you are God because of your life experiences, but you cannot claim to know who or what I am. I could be a shitposter, or I could be Christ incarnate. To claim you know precisely which it is is to claim omniscience in yourself, which means you are declaring yourself to be God. I have no spiritual pride, I have no pride at all, just love for God and his glory.

>>126112086
Well, for one, God wouldn't deny the Eucharist.

>>126112025
The first sword is the physical sword, the second sword is the word. There are two planes of reality: our physical world as we perceive through our senses, and then there is the world we have created through spoken word. They are both separated as information cannot be expressly tied to anything material. An apple is red but redness is not given to us by the apple but by our mind's eye.

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>>126112086
>I could be Christ incarnate
>I have no pride at all

PTTFFF

God isn't an edgelord.

kek

>>126112086
>And what evidence do you have that I am not God?
By definition, God isn't stupid.

>>126112461
You claim to know what God would say, which is to once again claim omniscience in yourself. Who is the spiritually prideful one here?

>>126103516
>Raised in an atheist household so I am ignorant of many Christian beliefs.
Hardcore Catholics literally believe in what they call "transubstansiation". Meaning they believe that though the waifer and grape juice you're given during the Eucharist are in fact just that- crackers and juice- when they enter your body the power of The Holy Spirit transforms them into the actual body and blood of Christ.

They believe a miracle happens that for some reason you can't see or document, but it definitely happens.

As far as the literal interpretation of the Bible goes... it kind of depends on who you talk to. That includes Priests and Nuns. The Church has an ever changing "official stance" but most people in practice are "cafeteria Catholics". Meaning they like belonging to THE CHURCH but also like to pick and choose what parts of the Bible and dogma they personally believe.

>>126112643
The mortal human claiming to be God would be more spiritually prideful. Disgusting really.

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>>126112476
>planes of reality

plane refers to a flat earth, planet refers to a globe earth dummy.

>more bullshit


> And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough


IF the second wasn't real he wouldn't have told Peter either that it was enough or to but it back in it's sheath after he cut off the solder's ear

>>126112518
By definition, not an argument. You must first tell me how I am stupid before claiming you know that I am stupid. I don't even need to claim divinity to say that. Sounds like somones a little butthurt

>>126112643
I'm not arguing I'm without pride, bud, you are.

>>126112833
All propositions are syllogisms which, by definition, are arguments. I take it you don't know what an argument is.

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The Eucharist seems to me more metaphorical based on:
John 6:51 - I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
I don't think Jesus is literally bread, or that the bread is literally Jesus' flesh. In fact, that's really kinda creepy to me. Jesus' sacrifice is holy sustenance so the soul can survive.

>>126112791
Just like the mortal Jesus claiming to be God. I suppose he is disgusting too? Or blasphemous, as the Jews called him. Congratulations, you are one with those that denied Christ.

>>126112799
>planes refer to flat earth
>arguing semantics like an infant

>>126113011
Truth is truth, alway has, always will be. Christ IS God, so Him claiming it is not sinful. You are clearly not God, and thus claiming it is.

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>>126112731
While it is scientifically known that blood once removed from the body soon coagulates and eventually spoils, and since this natural reaction was common knowledge among the medical faculty of the Middle Ages, a claim made by them of remarkable liquefacations can hardly be ignored and would seem to indicate a transcendence of their experience. And In our own day, the specimens that are still active are no less scientifically inexplicable than they were centuries ago, even amidst intense scientific investigation.

The best known and most intensely studied is the yearly blood miracle of St. Januarius (St. Gennaro) that occurs is Naples each year. The recurring miracle of the liquefaction of his blood 18 times a year is often reported in the secular as well as the religious press, and is the occasion of great gatherings in the Cathedral of Naples. Here the people pray fervently while the resident cardinal, who usually presides over the ceremony, holds the vials of blood. The miracle occurs when the bust reliquary containing the head of the saint is brought near. When the liquefaction is accomplished in full view of the spectators, the cardinal announces, "The miracle has happened," words that cause great rejoicing and the chanting of the Te Deum.

Familiar with miracles?

>>126113112
All arguments are semantics. Go hit yourself in the heaad repeatedly until you have a decent, original idea.

>>126113252
How do you know I'm "clearly not god" other than by your own parameters? Your "proof" was my denial of the eucharist, and that is all you have. It is clear to me that the bible itself doesnt say anywhere "get priests to perform alchemy on the properties of bread and wine and eat it or else you are going to hell"

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The saint's history begins with the Roman Emperor Diocletian whose persecution during the dawning years of the fourth century made martyrs of innumerable Christians. Among his victims was counted St. [Januarius, who was serving as bishop of Benevento. The imprisonment of the bishop occurred in A.D. 305 when he journeyed to Pozzuoli to offer encouragement to Sossius, a deacon who had been imprisoned. The bishop was soon arrested together with several ministers who had labored beside the saint in the service of the Church. After their decapitation the bodies were removed to various cities. St. Januarius’ body was taken to Benevento, then to Monte Vergine and lastly to Naples where it was entombed in the main church of the city, with two vials of his blood that had been collected by devout followers. Around this tomb the great ca¬thedral was constructed. Here Januarius was honorably remembered by the faithful of the city.

In the 14th century there occurred a phenomenon that was to attract curiosity throughout the centuries until even today the happenings pro¬voke worldwide interest:
The year was 1389. A procession was making its way about the ca¬thedral when the priest holding the flasks containing the saint's coagulated blood noticed that the contents began to liquefy and bubble. Since then the blood has repeated this phenomenon 18 times each year: on the Saturday before the first Sunday in May and the eight days fol¬lowing; on the feast of the saint, September 19, and during the octave, and on December 16.

>>126113112
That's the only meaning of the word in any technical manner, You are using it like a pleb.

UNless you feel like discussing flat earth then don't use the word "plane" or "planar" since it refers to an entire world where it is a flat surface.

Don't ruin words again edgelord

>>126113004
Except if it was a metaphor he would have explained rather than have people leave the Church
>>126108977

>>126112018
this is not ironic

>>126113467
No all arguments are not semantics. Reality is separate from the word and therefore my senses telling me that bread and wine is still bread and wine after your alchemists say their magic spells is not semantics.

>>126113534
>ignoring people's posts when they try to explain things to you
Really disrespectful

>>126113753
Just as Christ disrespected the rabbis I am disrespecting you. Clearly your hubris blinds you.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uv_2x6JmuaE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RI4lkqYzJvM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dlr90NLDp-0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxjYWvF5ttc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhP654dN3Ww
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ych_dTX8G0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oX9xVnHYFAM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_gaT-tnpKk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-5mx5o8YYs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wf3scPRLGFE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKpexxzR4Ak
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6JJCaf9e7c
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNMQu5LXaeI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJxRDhejtwo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_dV5b8AuLHg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YRhRzdiCk7s


>>126113711
>tips fedora

>>126113711
You're really not a nice person, and I already explained why your senses say it's bread and wine.

>>126113893
Jesus was the least nice person. He pointed out peoples sins which was frankly insulting to those people. I am comfortable doing the same.

>>126113872
You're not God, you're a blasphemous weirdo who doesn't know the Bible

>>126113534
Well, relativism is irreconcilable from God. Yet you seem to be using its tenants as an argument.

Christ refers to the Eucharist in literal terms.

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>>126113872
He didn't disrespect all the Rabbis. There were three that he dearly loved that come to my mind.

1. John the Baptist
2. Gamaliel
3. Hillel

Although 2 and 3 are not expliciltly noted by Jesus, he agreed with them all the time. As far as our records go. And Paul was a student of Gamaliel, although Paul was a zealot initially Gamaliel was not

>>126114040
But Jesus didn't ask people to explain things, ignore them, and then go back to saying
> 'it's magic priests haha it doesn't TASTE LIKE BLOOD Christianity BTFO'
That's what YOU DO, which there is no reason for.

>>126114288
You're going to have to elaborate because all I'm seeing is more gibberish. What do you mean by me using tenants of relatavism? And even so, is not all relative to God?

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>>126114040
Well that's good that you know that.

>>126113711
And again I argue that Christ's Divinity was more often then not hidden within His humanity. Do you think the Transfiguration wasn't special? Most men could not distinguish the Divinity of Christ during His ministry, and you find this perfectly alright, yet cannot concede that this is also acceptable for the Eucharist.

Literally? Nah. Well when a priest blesses it by God and reminiscing with us what Jesus told us to do in the last supper, we assume it is his body and blood we are takin, as a rememberance of his sacrifice. Spiritually, yes. But literally? Cmon why is that a question

>>126114512
Relativism as in the sense truth is not subjective, or at the very least, unknowable. Truth is fixed and unchanging, as it finds it source in God, who Himself is eternal and outside of time.

> And even so, is not all relative to God?

No. God's Knowledge is eternal and perfect, and thus could not change. Moreover, the Logos is God, and Christ specifically.

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>>126114040
But you shouldn't go around insulting people who don't deserve it though. You really are just edgey

>>126114906
The entirety of the Church rests one the veracity of the Eucharist. It is its literally Heart.

>>126115189
But it's not Jesus' literal body and blood. It's Wafers and wine. That's what OP was asking. Once in us, that's a different story and it spiritually is Jesus in us. "Take this cup, this is my blood, do this in memory of me" and we do.

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>>126113390
I realize the irony of saying this, but- OH FOR THE LOVE OF GOD

>>126103932
This. In most churches youre not supposed to eat it if you have not been baptised. But many guests unfamiliar with this rule often eat the "cracker" to be polite

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>>126115454
What's the problem?

>>126114391
You know what I meant by rabbis. The ones that had spiritual pride and hatred of His message.
>>126114732
I never said Christianity is "BTFO". I am specifically targetong just the Eucharist literalism that denominations focus on that is pointless. Out of all the lessons He taught you, that is the one you emphasize the most? Seems like a distraction at best and subversive cannibalism at best.
>>126114501
In much the same way I can argue that God would humble himself enough to come onto /pol/ and argue with you right now.
Your own argument devours itself.
>>126115058
What I meant was His point of view is the only point of view that matters. This means that even his apostles scriptures are flawed and prone to error and your interpretations of those scriptures even moreso.
>>126115063
Insults are only a problem to those with pride. I advise you to let go of your ego and open your mind.

>>126115387
Most catholics honestly believe it is literally flesh and blood.

t. many catholic friends

>>126102001

sigh do you people actualy read the bible ?
55For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. 57As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. 58This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

59These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.

Many Disciples Turn Away

(Matthew 8:18-22; Luke 9:57-62; Luke 14:25-33)

60Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it? 61When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? 62What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? 63It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. 64But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. 65And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.


>the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

>>126115387
>But it's not Jesus' literal body and blood.
and I am telling you that in order to believe in Catholicism, it is necessary to believe it is literal. Have you never witnessed Eucharistic adoration? Adoration is reserved for God alone.

If christianity, and specifically Catholicism is true, then it must be self-consistent. Denying the Eucharist is not like showing sketpiscm that a vision was real, or a saint actually existed, you are taking away a crucial element, and arguable the MOST crucial element, away from the equation and expecting it to still make sense.

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>>126115633
>You know what I mean by rabbis?

You mean Pharisees? Hillel and Gamaliel and Saul/Paul were all Pharisees and rabbis. It just means a jew teaching torah. So I don't really get you.

>insults
Why insult someone if it isn't true? Then it's just meaningless

>>126115796
I am Catholic. My whole family and entire church and the Catholic school I went to for 10 years doesn't believe this

It is Jesus in spirit and once part of you after eating it

>>126115853
I'm not denying the eucharist, nowhere do we believe it's Jesus literal body and blood. That's absurd. A priest blesses it and once inside is, Jesus is in us

>>126116160
You're a heretic and didn't learn your religion properly. Sadly people are not catechised very well anymore.

>>126115853
You shouldn't worship ANYTHING material. This includes your food in the church. Christ is to be worshipped as a whole, not as the pieces of his body divorced from his mind and spirit.
>>126114254
Found the rabbi :) will you crucify me too? Christ must have been such a weirdo in His time too.

>>126108444
So kind of like people who say traps aren't gay, the penis possesses the properties of a penis while having the substance of being feminine and thus not being gay. I'm going to need something better than shitty word play.

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>>126116270
>>126115633
>You know what I meant by rabbis. The ones that had spiritual pride and hatred of His message.
OH you are referring to Pharisees.

OY VEY Not all the Pharisees were bad, the one's that were taught by Hillel and Gamaliel came around eventually and supported him. Like Saul, Nicodemus, and Joseph of Arimethea. They actually agreed with Jesus on a lot of things. Saul fell for the Zeolot meme

Stupid Goy

>>126115633
>What I meant was His point of view is the only point of view that matters.

I agree with this

>This means that even his apostles scriptures are flawed and prone to error and your interpretations of those scriptures even mores.

this not so much.

>I never said Christianity is "BTFO". I am specifically targetong just the Eucharist literalism that denominations focus on that is pointless. Out of all the lessons He taught you, that is the one you emphasize the most? Seems like a distraction at best and subversive cannibalism at best.

I explained it before, but again, it is because the sacrifice of Christ is consummated for the faithful in the Eucharist. His pain, and his humiliation, and sacrifice continued to swell greater and greater, with its trajectory clearly to the farthest extreme possible. This is not mere death, then, but also for His own body to be offered up as nourishment. The cross is shameful and sacrificial by world standards, and yet willing accepted, the Eucharist is the extension of this.

And the infallibility of the Pope is also mandatory, correct? You can't disagree with/go against what the Pope says?

>>126116254
He is your brother in christ and calling him a heretic is evil hatred. Christ told you to love even your enemies, those that worship satan. Calling someone a heretic is to draw a line of spiritual hubris between someone who isn't an enemy and yourself and is not love. You disgust me and are not of the same God.

>>126116160
>>126116254
Good thing it's 2017 or else he might have been excommunicated or even killed for denying such a silly dogma.
I haven't seen any convincing scriptural evidence for transubstantiation.
>>126116739
Only if he's sitting in the big boy chair, apparently.

>>126115573
The implied parenthetical was (Is that ever some horse shit)

>>126116160
>nowhere do we believe it's Jesus literal body and blood
its literally stated in the Mass. Check the catechism friend, you are wrong.

>>126116270

The hypostatic union means that Christ's human body and soul, and his divinity, cannot be separated. Where ever one is, the other is as well. They are inseparable. Consequently, His Flesh contains God.

Secondly, it is referred to as containing Body Blood, Soul and Divinity when spoken of.

>>126116623
Why are you using Jew memes? You're right I meant pharisees. #notallpharisees

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>>126116877
>And he that blasphemeth the name of the Lord, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name of the Lord, shall be put to death.

>Stranger

THAT MEANS YOU GOY

>>126116254
Guess I didn't

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>>126116739
Bestowing such a power upon a man is an affront to God.

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>>126116943
No really I have absolutely no fucking clue what you are trying to say. Like are trying to be funny or something? Or clever? I'm just really fucking confused.

yes

orthodox blather a lot more about greek philosphy and mystical mysticism bs, but at the end of the day, its required.

>>126117020
This is frankly fucking stupid. Jesus is not represented by physical parts of him in the slightest. It is his mind and spirit that matter the most, not his earthly body.
>>126117066
Once again being weird and mentioning Jews. Off topic.

>>126116877
People with false beliefs need to be told so, in a harsh way so that they know it's wrong. Otherwise you have liberal theology garbage infecting entire parishes. Lack of proper catechesis is hurting the church very badly right now.

>>126117020
Yea. Transubstiation when I learned I didn't think it was actually Jesus. But only spiritually. Which is still physical, but w/e

>>126117414
>>126115853
You should be careful. The Pope doesn't approve of what you're saying. In fact, he says YOU're the heretic.
http://en.radiovaticana.va/news/2016/06/09/pope_those_who_say_%E2%80%9Cthis_or_nothing%E2%80%9D_are_heretics_/1235939

>>126117414
I don't know you or where you come from. The only one permitted to be harsh to God's sheep is Jesus, not a dirty sinner like yourself.

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>>126117054
#NOTALLPHARISEES

Gamaliel was a top Jew Pharisee not just any. But Pharisee Overlord
Then stood there up one in the council, a Pharisee, named Gamaliel, a doctor of the law, had in reputation among all the people, and commanded to put the apostles forth a little space; And said unto them, Ye men of Israel, take heed to yourselves what ye intend to do as touching these men. And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought: But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.

>>126105453
nah it was invented to resolve the donatist schism.
also because it resulted in very strange behavior not having a method of reconiliation. People would wait till their deathbed to get baptised.

>>126117362
His earthy body allowed for His suffering and death, which won salvation for us. A human being is both body and spirit, God made us so in the beggining, and, unless you deny the resurrection, body and spirit will be united again in the end.

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>>126117362
You're the one insulting anons by calling them "rabbi". THIS IS A CHRISTIAN BOARD what the hell you were thinking?

Yes. Jesus literally says it in the fucking New Testament. Fucking heretic Protestants.

>>126117294
No, you're right- it's a miracle! And it's definitely blood coming out. I mean it's red, isn't it?

>>126118040
I meant pharisees, and indeed you are closer to that than a Christian. You condemn a lover of Christ on the basis of something as fucking stupid as the eucharist. It speaks volumes of itself.

>>126117463
You mean the Catholic church that was defeated soundly by Protestants, skinned, and worn like a meat puppet? You do realize that modern progressives are an uninterrupted clade the historical chain of descent from Martin Luther to John Calvin and his religious dictatorship in Geneva, passing through the English Puritans to the New England Unitarians, abolitionists and Transcendentalists, Progressives and Prohibitionists, super-protestants, hippies and secular theologians, and down to our own dear progressive multiculturalists.

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>>126118405
Godamnit this is the kajilllionth time this month a protestant has called me a Pharisee.That's just ridiculous. Why are you people so obsessed with calling people Pharisee? It's not like we're in Israel or something. Don't be such a goy.

>>126102872
>>126103516
The explanation in the first post is wrong.

The terms "dogma" and "doctrine" are virtually synonymous in Catholic theology. To be Catholic, you must believe teachings in that category (i.e., dogmas or doctrines), including the Eucharist.

"Disciplines," on the other hand, are teachings or requirements that can change, e.g., the former discipline that prohibited eating meat on Friday.

>but you can probably pretend to be a loyal Catholic and still promulgate that the Eucharist isn't literal with no ministerial penalty.

This is incorrect, and terrible, terrible advice.

Here is what Paul said about the Eucharist:
>For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on themselves.
>That is why many of you are weak and sick and some have even died.
1 Corinthians 11:29-30

IOW, Paul is saying that people who partook of the Eucharist lightly, without recognizing what they were doing (without "discerning the body," i.e., without recognizing that the Eucharist is the body of Christ) got sick AND SOME DIED.

So belief in the Eucharist for Catholics is a non-negotiable, very serious matter.

More or less the same applies in the case of Orthodoxy, which has always recognized the Real Presence in the Eucharist.

This lays out the basics:

https://www.catholic.com/tract/the-institution-of-the-mass

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>>126118394
Why would it come out of the vial? It's supposed to become fresh goy blood again. That's what's so miraculous. Ever wondered who the (((Blood collecters))) were?

>>126118159
Prove to me Jesus was speaking literally.
John 6
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

48 I am that bread of life.

49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
>the bread that I will give is my flesh
>which I WILL give for the life of the world
this seems to be referring to His crucifixion, not actual bread-bread
>>126118649
not certain what you're trying to say here bud

>>126118847
you cant believe the some died part literally

>>126118813
>THICC

BRAAAAAAAAPPPPPPPPPFFFT

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>>126102001
Jesus clearly said "this is My body", not "this is a symbol in remembrance of My body." What do you think?

>>126118649

That chain would make a very interesting book.

In the Old Testament, a lamb was sacrificed as atonement for sin. Jesus was the sacrifice that wiped sin out. You do two things with body and blood sacrament: symbolically eat Jesus the lamb as the priest did in the OT (the veil was torn), and two, just chill and grab a bite with Jesus and remember what he did and think of him as your bud. Because God is God, he can reward your reverence with real blessings. There is nothing evil or offensive about this.

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>>126119233
He's MINE

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>>126102001

>>126117170
Do you believe the scriptures are infallible?

If so, God "bestowed such power" on the men who wrote them.

Likewise, he bestows such power on the pope when he formally defines matters of faith and morals.

Christ instructed the Church to preach everything he taught (Matt. 28:19–20) and promised the protection of the Holy Spirit to "guide you into all the truth" (John 16:13). That mandate and that promise guarantee the Church will never fall away from his teachings (Matt. 16:18, 1 Tim. 3:15).

The doctrine of papal infallibility follows from the words of Christ in three passages: John 21:15–17 ("Feed my sheep . . . "), Luke 22:32 ("I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail"), and Matthew 16:18 ("You are Peter . . . ")

As explained at greater length and in detail here:

https://www.catholic.com/tract/papal-infallibility

It's not required because it is in fact Truth, literally.

>>126119054
Holy shit. I wasn't even paying attention to who I was talking to- then I read the rest of the thread.

HAHAHAHA!

You're a fucking lunatic!

>>126118813
Sounds like I might find protestants are closer to the truth than the "chosen people" of the catholic church

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>>126119609
He never had anyone sell belongings to him. He told people to give alms. And he told the proud to sell everything. The one's who thought they were shoe ins into heaven. The getting up and leaving everything he said is for disciple-ship.
Remember he said "you cannot be my disciple if you cannot carry my cross"

He meant it as an actual disciple, so in this case a clergy member, like a priest.
And it's true you shouldn't be a priest if you can't let go of home and find your father more authoritative than God.

>>126119150
I do.

Recall, too, the story of Ananias and Sapphira, Acts 5:1-5.

>>126119690
It's not God that bestows the power of infallibility upon the Pope, it's the Cardinals who do. The Bible bestows no legitimacy upon the papal structure. Half the shit Catholics do is just made up bullshit.

The scriptures themselves are no infallible seeing as they have been corrupted over time, but the values hold true. The important thing is your relationship with God, not petty details and rituals.

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>>126119609
>What is that sort of group called?
Secular humanism.

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>>126119804
>muh science
The earth is flat btw

>>126119847
>muh chosen muh chosen
>Iimm Chosen not you
>chosen this chosen that
WANT TO BE A JEW EH?
WELL FUCK OFF

Yeah and if that's too difficult for you, go be a Protestant, I'm sure you'll love their lesbian clergypersyns.

>>126120281
It seems my omniscience is proving itself. The demon spawn rears it's ugly head on a message board. Usually its harder for me to see it here because of the lack of body language that lets me read men like a book. Hmm sometimes I surprise myself.

>>126119097
>>126119290

ALL Christians EVERYWHERE in the world WITHOUT EXCEPTION believed in the Real Presence - i.e., they took Christ's words in John 6 and at the Last Supper literally - until around the year 1200, when the first dissenter appeared in a relatively obscure controversy. Then the floodgates opened with the Reformation. (Although Luther himself believed strongly in the Real Presence, albeit he did not believe in the Catholic doctrine of Transubstantiation.)

I believe that within less than 50 years of the Reformation a book was published entitled something like "100 Different Interpretations of the Words 'This Is My Body'"

>>126120285
>implying loving lesbians is wrong
My God Catholics are wretched.

>>126119378
"Chain of Fools"

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>>126120561
>I know everything
>I surprise myself

Well no need to go to court for this one you just admitted that you're not God. Dumb Goy I can lie better than you. Although I choose not to.

>>126108948
The answer is 'yes'. It's definitely not my preference and likely not most of this board's, but Moses' sister got pushback from God when she lodged a complaint about one of Moses' wives who was black. A man or woman has human dignity and is allowed to freely choose his mate. Again, not my thing but I won't deny my brother or sister's right to freely consent. I've seen ugly marry beautiful on more than a few occasions so a mixed marriage or two, who cares. unless it's cat catching like spring fever.

>>126120788
The fully human and fully god aspect of christ is indeed the most mysterious contradiction that we must accept. Not stupid bread and wine bs.

>>126108444
This is based on Plato's theory of forms. Basically that the actually form of substance of something is not it's physical properties.

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>>126120223

Climate change and secular humanism aren't the same thing. Secular humanism absolutely is a religion, but does not use the methods at the bottom of this image to entice conversion, deter apostasy or motivate evangelism.

But you know that, you're just being a contrarian in order to avoid seeing a pattern you don't want to.

>>126119462
You should listen to this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1yAvrVoYzo

>>126120691
Lesbians are a gateway drug to pegging.

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>>126120691
>Implying lesbians aren't disgusting

How on earth is rubbing two fish buckets against each other sexy. That's clearly a fucking sin worthy of damnation.

>>126120852
Read my stuff below

Moshe married a Midianite, who lived IN Cush. Midians were whites, closely related to the jews.

Now Moses was keeping the flock of his father-in-law, Jethro, the priest of Midian, and he led his flock to the west side of the wilderness and came to Horeb, the mountain of God.

>wilderness
Blacks can't live in the wilderness

>>126120917
Ie the two planes of reality I mentioned earlier. Information and physical reality as we perceive are separate. Plato and Christ would have a great conversation on philosphy together. I know I would love to talk to either about ontology.

>>126120625
>everyone believed this until X point in history >therefore it is true
that's just bad logic
and you're making a sweeping claim
>ALL Christians EVERYWHERE in the world WITHOUT EXCEPTION believed in the Real Presence
and not providing any evidence to back it up
>>126120691
funny

>>126120040
>He never had anyone sell belongings to him.
>to him

That's not what the pic says.

> He told people to give alms. And he told the proud to sell everything

No, not just the proud. only Luke 18:22 and Matthew 19:21 concern the story of Jesus advising the wealthy young man about the difficulty of entering heaven, which is probably what you're referring to.

However in Luke 12:33 and Luke 14:33 Jesus is not speaking to that man but to a crowd following him, and in 14:33 he specifically says that those who do not give up everything they have **cannot** be his disciples. It is therefore not a recommendation but a requirement of anybody who would follow Christ.

>And it's true you shouldn't be a priest if you can't let go of home and find your father more authoritative than God.

There's always convincing "in-religion" rationales for these policies. For example Scientology has the same policy, they call it "disconnection". It makes sense to believing Scientologists that they should cut suppressive persons out of their lives who are low on the tone scale as they will inhibit their movement up the bridge.

Only because you and I are not Scientologists can we see, from the outside, that the disconnection policy is actually intended to separate new converts from the people most likely to extricate them: Family members.

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>>126120937

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>>126121116
>Plane

Plane means a flat earth YOU STUPID PLEB

>>126121329

Those are all different things, not parts of the same religion.

>>126121116
Whats the point of debating philosophy with the Author of Truth? It'd be like taking a test with the answer sheet.

>>126121114
You misinterpreted me entirely, like the broken filth you are. Loving two women that commit the sin of lesbianism is not the same as getting a hardon watching lesbian porn. They aren't the same at all. You must separate the sin from the sinner. No, being a lesbian is not worthy of damnation as the lesbian has already killed her lineage by being lesbian. The punishment is inherent and no further punishment is needed.

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>>126121327
They're jews, the proud come in flocks.

>>126121114
You actually believe this shit?

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>>126121377
>no true Scotsman

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>>126121413
>filth

Only applies to goyim

WHICH MEANS YOU

>>126121438

Invalid response. The verse says anybody who would follow Christ must give up everything they have. Immediately concede and begin to self-correct.

>>126120917
Actually, it's based on Aristotle, the great influence on Aquinas.

Anon's summary >>126108444 is basically accurate.

Here is a more formal exposition:

http://www.faith.org.uk/article/a-match-made-in-heaven-the-doctrine-of-the-eucharist-and-aristotelian-metaphysics

>>126121410
Plato and Christ both receive knowledge from the same God. I didn't say it would be a debate, it would be a conversation. Cannot Jesus enjoy conversation amongst men without attempting to persuade?

>>126121502

But I'm right. All you did was to take a bunch of separate things you don't like and paste them onto the image.

It's "NO YOU" or "I am rubber you are glue". You do this to avoid confronting an unwanted realization about Christianity.

Why did you post a pic about atheism? I am not an atheist. I possess a truth unknown to you. It is not only atheists who recognize Christianity is false.

>>126121530
Why do you keep using that word? It isn't a term of Catholicism. I guess you really are Jewish? I have no intent of talking about silly conspiracy memes here.

>>126121653
Christ is God.
>Cannot Jesus enjoy conversation amongst men without attempting to persuade?
Yeah, He seemed to quite a bit. But He also seemed to be unrelenting in matters of truth, which is the goal of (any worthwhile) philosophy

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>>126121854

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>>126121680
>I possess a truth unknown to you.

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>>126121542
>invalid nonsense

You didn't prove it. Jesus always used that method.

If they're proud he gave them difficult and incredible commands to obey in the Torah. If they were humble he gave them forgiveness and told them to stop their sinful lifestyle

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>>126121918

>>126121971
>You didn't prove it.

My claim was that Christ expected anybody who wanted to follow him to get rid of their belongings. I then supported that with verses in which he explicitly said so.

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>>126121680
>But I'm right.
You didn't post any proof of you being right. All you did is hurling one fallacy after another after you get exposed for being the pseudointellectual twat that you all. Now swallow your pride and read actual theology instead of pop science lits. I'll pray for you.

>>126121905
Do you even know the etymology of the word?

The use of cult as a pejorative is comparatively new given the words age, and largely a reflection of anti-catholic sentiment.

>>126121499
Well yes it's in the Bible

When Jethro, the priest of Midian, Moses' father in law, heard of all that God had done for Moses, and for Israel his people, and that the Lord had brought Israel out of Egypt.

To live in Cush does not imply you are black it can just mean nationality. It was rich in gold and would attract many Hebrews in to the area.
Moses married Jethro's/Ruel's daughter, who were Midianites. Who were nomads

>>126122239

I am not using it that way. Nor is that suspicion enough reason to dismiss the possibility out of hand that Christianity started out as what we would today identify as a cult.

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>>126122050
No you didn't it doesn't fit every other time he uses it. You assume a whole bunch of jews can't fit the bill of arrogance, well you're just wrong., Ever heard of this place called PLebbit It's really bad

>>126121854
Christ is God yet he prays to God. The nost interesting of contradictions. If you understood what it means to believe in God beyond just the big man in the sky version (NOT knocking this) you could see how this makes sense.

>Yeah, He seemed to quite a bit. But He also seemed to be unrelenting in matters of truth, which is the goal of (any worthwhile) philosophy

Indeed but he also wouldn't be aiming to belittle Plato's thoughts by pulling the God card because that is not the ballgame Plato is playing. Christ would teach Plato a thing or two and he would enjoy it.

>>126122203
>You didn't post any proof of you being right.

Here you go.

Imminent end of the world:

1 John 2:18
Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour.

Matthew 16:27-28
For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and will then repay every man according to his deeds. Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.

Matthew 24:34
Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

Matthew 10:23
When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. Truly I tell you, you will not finish going through the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.


Sell your belongings:

Luke 14:33
"In the same way, those of you who do not give up everything you have cannot be my disciples."

Matthew 19:21
Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

Luke 12:33
“Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will never fail, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys.”

Luke 18:22
When Jesus heard this, he said to him, "You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

Please note that only Luke 18:22 and Matthew 19:21 concern the story of Jesus advising the wealthy young man about the difficulty of entering heaven.

These verses are included for completeness, and to acknowledge the existence of this story because the most common objection I receive to the claim that Jesus required followers to sell their belongings is that I *must* be talking about this particular story and misunderstanding the message it conveys.

However in Luke 12:33 and Luke 14:33 Jesus is not speaking to that man but to a crowd following him, and in 14:33 he specifically says that those who do not give up everything they have **cannot** be his disciples. It is therefore not a recommendation but a requirement.


Cut off family members who try to stop you:

Luke 14:26
"If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters--yes, even their own life--such a person cannot be my disciple."

Matt. 10:35-37
“For I have come to turn a man against his father a daughter against her mother a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law---a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household. Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.”

Matthew 19:29
And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life.

Do not apply critical thought to doctrine:

Proverbs 3:5
“Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding”

2 Corinthians 5:7
“For we live by faith, not by sight.”

Proverbs 14:12
“There is a way that appears to be right, but in the end it leads to death.”

Proverbs 28:26
“Those who trust in themselves are fools, but those who walk in wisdom are kept safe.”

>>126121241
>that's just bad logic

No, it's not. We're not dealing with some sort of science problem here, we're dealing with the understanding of a particular text that was originally written in manuscript and then widely distributed by evangelists widely throughout the world, and translated into many different languages as the geographic scope of the Church spread.

Thus the teachings of Christianity were originally spread by the original Apostles, and then the successors to the Apostles who we read about in Acts and Paul's letter, in particular his letters to Timothy and Titus. And then the second-generation successors were trained by the first-generation successors to the Apostles, and so on and so forth down through the centuries.

And the historical record tells us that ALL of those Christians understood the Eucharist in a literal fashion as the Body and Blood of Christ, just as the Catholic Church teaches today.

Without exception.

>and not providing any evidence to back it up

Numerous citations here:
https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/the-real-presence-1

You will not find any exceptions in the first 1000 years of Christianity. Do your own research -- what I'm saying is true.

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>>126121770
It's because you are a goy

>>126122491
>B-but da joos

haha, every time.

>>126122253
>>126122504
Secular humanism does the same shit with climate change, but you deny that it's a cult. Why the double standard?

>>126122741

Climate change is not a doctrine of secular humanism.

>but you deny that it's a cult.

Not necessarily. Climate change might be a cult. If I agree that it is, will you agree Christianity is too? What then?

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>>126121327
YOu better quote them Satanist, Only Satanists dont' quote the bible.

So somebody can't be his disciple, well tough luck not everybody is cut out for that. Doesnt' mean anything more than what he said. Ever heard of holy orders?

>>126122504
this is hillarious

>>126122918

I did, here: >>126122504
>>126122534

>>126122339
Except that early christianity in particular fails to follow the prototypical characteristics of what a modern person would understand of a cult. The higher ups are the ones that suffered the greatest discomfort, torture, and death in early christianity, not the converts. One would expect otherwise. Excepting John, every apostle to the man was martyred. Paul, who was in many ways the idea man of the early church, and whose roman citizenship, literacy, would seemingly place him in a fine spot for manipulation, instead rushed into death. Popes and bishops were regularly martyred. This is not what one would expect of leaders with dubious ambitions.

>>126122918
i fucking love your art folder
keep posting

>>126123012
Well reply them to me because I never read that stuff.

>>126123012
Read the rest of the guy's posts. Stop giving him (you)s

>>126102001
Catholicism is cancer.

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>>126123088
Oh always I'm glad you like it I like sharing

>>126123057
>Except that early christianity in particular fails to follow the prototypical characteristics of what a modern person would understand of a cult.

No, the opposite of this is true.

>The higher ups are the ones that suffered the greatest discomfort, torture, and death in early christianity, not the converts

How did Joseph Smith die?

> One would expect otherwise.

Indeed, Mormonism must be true then.

>Popes and bishops were regularly martyred. This is not what one would expect of leaders with dubious ambitions.

Look up the Mormon extermination order. Why would they endure such intense persecution if their faith was untrue?

>>126123057
paul died old after starting a huge fire in rome

>>126122498
Christs dual nature is certainly mind boggling. fully man, He is expected to be a servant to God. Being perfect, He is obviously the perfect servant of God. But He also is fully God.

>>126122538
>all documents that survived agree with each other
that's because catholics don't tolerate dissenting opinions, it wouldn't be unusual for them to burn the exceptions
there is no way to prove all people of a group believed X, and even if they somehow did I would still put more stock in the Word itself
if I had scriptural proof of transubstantiation I would believe it, but there just isn't any

>>126122807
>Climate change is not a doctrine of secular humanism.
Apocalyptic fearmongering has always been part of secular humanism. Only the name changes, like how climate change is the current shoe-in for the inevitable class warfare.

>If I agree that it is, will you agree Christianity is too? What then?
I don't recall a cult leader willingly submitting himself to be tortured and executed. Nor do I recall Jesus personally acquiring any of the possessions of his followers or using physical/psychological pressure to keep them in line.

>>126123360
why is it mind boggling?

>>126123360
I don't see what you're struggling with.
Do you think God is prohibited from doing something?

>>126123482
secular humanism is communist?

jesus is not the cult leader idiot he didnt even existed as told by the apostles

bait anti-christian thread. saged.

>>126123932
he is only lazy and doesnt care

>>126123482
>Apocalyptic fearmongering has always been part of secular humanism.

No it hasn't.

>Only the name changes, like how climate change is the current shoe-in for the inevitable class warfare.

I can find nothing on the secular humanism website about class warfare.

>I don't recall a cult leader willingly submitting himself to be tortured and executed.

We don't know if that's really what happened. The only record we have is the Bible, which is not impartial.

According to Dianetics, L. Ron Hubbard was a ground breaking nuclear physicist and war hero. If there was no internet, in a thousand years the only records we would have about what sort of man he was would be those written and preserved by Scientologists.

>Nor do I recall Jesus personally acquiring any of the possessions of his followers

I never said anything like that. The purpose of that practice is not to enrich the leader but to render converts materially dependent upon the group so it is not easy to leave if they have doubts.

>or using physical/psychological pressure to keep them in line.

Except teaching that those who believe in him will enjoy an eternal utopia after they die where they will be reunited with dead loved ones, whereas those who turn away from him will burn in the lake of fire.

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>>126123012
>sell belongings
We already went over this but he's talking about being one of the Apostles, or the 72 disciples. It is a special calling and not for everyone, they went all over the Empire and preached which requires leaving everything behind. It's not a demand for salvation or forgiveness of sins. You lack context.
>Cut off family members
Well you have a few situations here, one is some families that were Zealots or Shammai students would give their kids a really fucking hard time becoming a disciple of Jesus Christ, who taught to teach the Goyim right and wrong. The anti Rome crowd was all the rage during His ministry.

Another thing is this
>A house takes after it's father because a son loves his father's ways and a son knows his father's ways.

This is why the Christians are called Children of Abraham. A seed from spiritual faith when not taking about the jews. But anyways you can say Love X and Hate Y means Prefer one or the other but not both. Love and hate can mean bad or good relationship, the point is you have to make a choice. Who will be the final authority in your life. A man choosing God as his father will not as likely succumb to the sins of his father, this is not a reference to rejecting family members in fact paul said people would go to hell for not taking care of immediate family.
I think that verse is in timothy

>>126102872
religions go through reformations all the time, there's no reason you can't put your religion through your own reformation as long as it remains in keeping with the religion's chief tenets

acknowledging that these the transubstantiation are symbolic of jesus's sacrifice, and that that sacrifice of jesus is to be held up as an example to which to aspire (self-sacrifice for faith and the greater community) is perfectly acceptable

THAT SAID

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_of_Lanciano

i don't think god gives a shit about the details of what you believe as long as you love him and live a christlike life, honoring him by honoring yourself and your family and neighbors and (positive) institutions

be charitable, be selfless, be good, be faithful

yours will be the kingdom

>>126124066
>secular humanism website
Jesus Christ.
Relativism is cancer, and its cultists don't even pretend to not be cultists.

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>>126124125
>sell belongings

Or it refers to cutting the vain down a peg. He wouldn't say that to a repentant and woeful sinner. But he would encourage it with rich thieves for obvious reasons.

>>126124125
>We already went over this but he's talking about being one of the Apostles, or the 72 disciples.

i.e. a member of Christianity when it was very young and had very few members. Like a cult.

>You lack context.

The context does not change anything. You are looking at all of this from the inside of Christianity. It is designed in such a way that those on the inside cannot see what it really is.

You can see for yourself that this is true. Mormonism and Islam look very different to you, as an outsider, than they look to Mormons and Muslims who are still in the fold.

>Well you have a few situations here, one is some families that were Zealots or Shammai students would give their kids a really fucking hard time becoming a disciple of Jesus Christ, who taught to teach the Goyim right and wrong. The anti Rome crowd was all the rage during His ministry.

That's the in-religion rationale, yes. There is a convincing in-religion rationale for every such policy, otherwise members would see it for what it is and leave.

>>126123197
>How did Joseph Smith die?
Joseph Smith didn't willingly martyr himself. He tried to escape imprisonment and shot somebody in the attempt. The fact that you compare this to true martyrs is laughable. They were nonviolent and supplicant in their deaths.

>Look up the Mormon extermination order. Why would they endure such intense persecution if their faith was untrue?

>Indeed, Mormonism must be true then.
You are attempting to tie together two different discussions. I began by attempting to refute your accusation that christianity is a modern day cult, but know you are saying that this means anything that doesn't follow the definition is true. I never claimed this. Christianity is true for this, but many other reasons. Moreover, mormonism is a cult, as the leaders no doubt received a worldly benefit from their servants, namely of a carnal variety. Priests and bishops were generally celibate, at least in the west.

>>126124249

This is all distraction from whether early Christianity, if it started in the present day, would be identified as a cult.

All you have said so far is "whatever you believe is a cult". But you don't know what I believe, and that doesn't constitute a rebuttal. You're just going on the attack as an alternative to defending your beliefs.

>>126123932
>>126123561

Its mind-boggling because its supposed to be. Its a mystery, we discussed it earlier. If you honestly think you have a perfect understanding of this mystery or any other like the Trinity, you are being overproud.

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>>126124391
They were young because students learned when they were young. Like learning anything you learn when you are young.

>That's the in-religion rationale, yes. There is a convincing in-religion rationale for every such policy, otherwise members would see it for what it is and leave.

I'm sorry but I really don't understand you, you're just gong to have to talk like a normal person

>>126123561
>>126123932
If you don't understand why this man is confused by this contradiction then you are not men of God.

>>126124540
It's not a cult if it's true.

>>126124066
>No it hasn't.
>what is the French Reign of Terror, the Spanish Red Terror, and the Mexican War on Religion under Calles

>The only record we have is the Bible, which is not impartial.
>I don't like it so it doesn't count

>Except teaching that those who believe in him will enjoy an eternal utopia after they die where they will be reunited with dead loved ones, whereas those who turn away from him will burn in the lake of fire.
>equating this to beatings, starvations, and public humiliations used by actual cult leaders

>>126124392
>Joseph Smith didn't willingly martyr himself. He tried to escape imprisonment and shot somebody in the attempt. The fact that you compare this to true martyrs is laughable. They were nonviolent and supplicant in their deaths.

We only have that information because Mormonism is much younger than Christianity.

>You are attempting to tie together two different discussions. I began by attempting to refute your accusation that christianity is a modern day cult

I never made any such claim. I said it began as one, and if it was just getting started today, that's what it would be identified as.

>Moreover, mormonism is a cult, as the leaders no doubt received a worldly benefit from their servants, namely of a carnal variety.

The benefit Christ received was everlasting worship from every believing Christian for as long as the religion he started persists in the world.

It is not some huge coincidence that every Christian worships Christ, and to be worshiped by so many people for so long is highly desirable indeed.

>>126124540
Christianity lays down an objective morality.
Secular humanism is relativism.
That's the most morally substantive rebuttal possible.

>>126124616

It can be difficult or impossible for people in the religion to see it in this way. Aspects of how it's designed help put it as far beyond doubt as possible such that it's the absolute last institution that a believer would ever suspect as fraudulent.
As a result, describing it as an unusually successful end of the world cult will sound to them either like crazy talk or a deliberate attempt to be hurtful. They will see the verses supplied above as being misconstrued, because there is an "in-religion" rationale for each of them which the true believer feels is the actual meaning.
For instance, in Scientology there is a disconnection policy which urges members to cut off family members who are trying to extricate them from the church. We all know why. But the reason they give, which members take at face value, is that being around people low on the tone scale will inhibit their movement up the bridge, the Scientologist equivalent of spiritual growth.
So it goes for the Biblical verses I supplied. Someone still on the inside will perceive, interpret, and feel completely differently about them than a skeptic, even while being able to identify the true purpose of the exact same practices in religions they are not a part of. You can only see what stuff like that's really intended for from the outside.

>>126124676

Every cult teaches that it is true. Actual truths do not need a cult to spread them.

>>126124574
What's mysterious about God doing whatever God wants? Nothing at all.

>>126124635
You're not a Christian if you think God is prohibited from doing whatever it is God wants to do.

>>126124712
>The only record we have is the Bible, which is not impartial.
>I don't like it so it doesn't count

So the only reason you reject Scientologist claims concerning L. Ron's greatness is because you don't like Scientology?


>Except teaching that those who believe in him will enjoy an eternal utopia after they die where they will be reunited with dead loved ones, whereas those who turn away from him will burn in the lake of fire.
>equating this to beatings, starvations, and public humiliations used by actual cult leaders

You originally said he didn't use ***psychological*** manipulation. That's what I was disputing with that reply.

>>126124839
can God do things He doesn't want to do?

>>126124758

I'm not a secular humanist. I'm confused how it became involved in the discussion.

Also Christian morality is only objective if its foundational claims are true. If they cannot be proven to be true, its morality is not objective.

>>126124721
>that's what it would be identified as.
being identified as something does not mean this is an apt classification. Who is doing the identifying?

>The benefit Christ received was everlasting worship from every believing Christian for as long as the religion he started persists in the world.
How is the praise of people worth it to a dead man? Adulation is only worthwhile if an afterlife exists. For Christ, it would only be worth it if He was in fact just, (which He was.)

>>126124574
it is not mind boggling nor is the trinity
you just pretend it is

>>126125131
>being identified as something does not mean this is an apt classification. Who is doing the identifying?

I'm not done yet. Step 1 is just to get you to the point where you will acknowledge that it at least would look from the outside, indistinguishable from any other cult, being that it is a group of dependent followers of a man who claims to be God.

>How is the praise of people worth it to a dead man?

Ask that question of any of the men in history who have commissioned immense statues and memorials to themselves, wishing to be glorified post-mortem.

>>126124839
In no way did I say God didn't do what he wants to do. Explain this: in the Garden of Gethsemane, Christ did NOT want to be tortured and executed. Yet he is God and you say he never did anything he didn't want to do. You are out of your league kid.

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>>126124791
>It can be diffucult yada yda

Pleb you talk like a fedora from Plebbit literally no one here knows what the hell you crazy fucks are saying. You are vain
I'm sorry but no Scientology is a very dangerous cult and they will kill you if you join and happen to have money on you, from what i've heard.

The history of the Catholic Church and Paul's letters just dont say that. They both talk about dealing with family that doesn't believe. ANd telling them to stick around, don't divorce and take care of them as usual. You are just lying or are deluded.


>my biblical verses if you could just percieve

Stupid nigger I've read the Scriptures backwards nd forwards don't tell me I didn't scrutinize them for years on end only to have some dumb fedora that I don't know these bible verses.

>>126102001
Christ was a jew; his teachings cannot be trusted.

>>126124839
>What's mysterious about God doing whatever God wants? Nothing at all.
I am not God. Assuming I would fully understand His mind is to call me omniscient, heresy. We are called to contemplate the mysteries of the faith, surely, but we are warned that we should never assume we can fully comprehend them in our mortal lives.

>>126124998
You involved it.

>>126124066
>I can find nothing on the secular humanism website about class warfare

Something does not need to be proven to be objectively true. Whether you have proven something has nothing whatsoever to do with its truth status. I'm operating as if Christianity is true and it very well could be. And if it is, I'm right, and there is one absolute objectively true morality by which your very soul will be judged upon your death. We'll both find out in the end.

>>126124961
he can
but doesnt
are you an idiot?

>>126124824
>Actual truths do not need a cult to spread them.
I agree. God has already reveals them to the world through the Orthodox Church.

>>126124926
Stating what is to be expected in the afterlife is not psychological manipulation. You can choose to reject or accept it.

>>126124635
not a contradiction

So the Eucharist is still bead and wine as a physical substance when you partake, but gains the spirit of Christ? Or are you all saying it turns into blood and body inside you like has Jesus' DNA?

>>126125265
It was God's Will that all those events transpired. Christ said it Himself that if he wanted to be defended He'd call angels to defend Himself - have you even read the Bible?

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>>126124791
>>126122504
>>126122534
Here's a thing on REAL CULTS

PART 1

About the Mark of the Beast

If it weren't a physical mark you need to get that person to speak "hail the antichrist and satan" EVERYTIME HE BUYS SOMETHING

Which means it must be a physical mark. "Worship the beast and receives his mark" NOT "receiving the mark BY worshiping the beast."

This means the mark is not spiritual because that spiritual act is denoted by "Worshiping the beast."
>So the first angel went and poured out his bowl on the earth, and harmful and painful sores came upon the people who bore the mark of the beast and worshiped its image.

The mark causes a severe allergic reaction. And physical corruption. The worship is spiritual corruption. They are separate.

>And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”

This verse says "receives". If you did received a mark, but not "receives it"any longer, then you are not cast into the fire. Because the condition is PRESENT TENSE not PAST, because you removed it
from yourself.
>Λαμβανει = Receives
Strong's G2983 for meaning and G5719 for tense.

See what Jesus Says on the matter.

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PART 2

Sermon on the Mount
>If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell.

>And if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life crippled or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the eternal fire. And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into the hell of fire.

This verse is about mystery cults in the ancient world, Deuteronomy also makes note of this, It is saying "I am owned by you". By cutting off the mark you are saying you renouncing your membership.

>You shall not make any cuts on your body for the dead or tattoo yourselves: I am the Lord.

Cuts were made in lamentation. Tattoos are forbidden because of cults exclusively.

Eleusinian mysteries the Most popular of all cults, and the one that inspired many others.
Foot - Eleusinian mysteries, and many other rituals have sacred "foot paths" they had to walk, usually to water. This means markings on the feet applied in many cults because many had sacred footpaths.

Halade Mystai - Means "To the sea initiates!" A necessary and "sacred" footpath for ritual bathing.
Eyes -Eye tattoos of the cornea have existed well over two thousand years.
Epoptês : "one who has seen," an initiate
Mystês which is the root of MYSTERY: "one who is [whose eyes are] closed," someone to be initiated

>"Blessed is he among earthbound men, who has been privileged to see the mysteries."
- Hymn to Demeter 480

>>126125297
I always thought the contradiction could be understood as Jesus is simultaneously the chess piece and the chess player. But of course, I DID claim omnisciences earlier.

>>126125282

>Pleb you talk like a fedora from Plebbit literally no one here knows what the hell you crazy fucks are saying. You are vain

Ad hom. I'm not from reddit and not an atheist. That won't work on me.

>The history of the Catholic Church and Paul's letters just dont say that.

Obviously. No religion, including ones you and I both agree are false, say in naked language "we intend these teachings to keep our followers deceived". It is not realistic that they would do this as it is against their own interests.

Consider instead how they could include teachings that serve the purpose of enticing conversion, deterring doubt and motivating members to spread their beliefs in a way that the members don't realize that's the intended effect.

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PART 3

Christianity is centered around freeing people from the obligation to sin. Cults included.

>Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.

>So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.

>The Spirit of the Lord is upon me,
>because he has anointed me
>to proclaim good news to the poor.
>He has sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives
>and recovering of sight to the blind,
>to set at liberty those who are oppressed,
>to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor.”

>>126125297
You're not meant to understand God. You're meant to obey Him. I don't care *WHAT* God asks of me - I care that I *DO IT*.

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PART 4

>Then I saw thrones, and on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.

This paragraph above shows that those ONLY who did not receive the mark AND DIED during the tribulation will be a part of the 1st resurrection, and become priests in the temple and kings.
ANYONE who goes through the tribulation and survives without the mark presently will live a normal life.
People who take it on the forehead will be the most lunatic people, like people who do body augmentation putting horns on their head, also people who take it in the arm means "obligation" but in the forehead it means "belief". Also people can become saints by their head being CUT OFF for worshiping Jesus Christ.

So those who had the mark in their head can become resurrected if they become martyrs. It is the only way to remove that mark.

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PART 5

Pic related

Something like this may be available during the tribulation or shortly afterwards because of people removing the mark of the beast. God gives mercy and love.

God Bless

>>126125436
Have you? He says "my God my God why have you forsaken me?" Exactly what part of that says he wanted to be there waiting for a humiliating execution?

>>126125301
>You involved it.

How? I am not the one who brought it up. It was brought up by a scared contrarian trying to reframe the discussion to scrutinize what he assumed my beliefs are and away from Christianity.

>Something does not need to be proven to be objectively true. Whether you have proven something has nothing whatsoever to do with its truth status. I'm operating as if Christianity is true and it very well could be. And if it is, I'm right, and there is one absolute objectively true morality by which your very soul will be judged upon your death. We'll both find out in the end.

The same defense also applies to Islam, Mormonism, etc. You're not really saying anything here except "If I am right then I am right".

I don't agree that we need to wait in order to find out. It is in fact very easy to prove Christianity originated as a cult. You just can't see that from the inside because it is designed to prevent that realization, otherwise nobody would stay.

>>126125321
>Stating what is to be expected in the afterlife is not psychological manipulation.

It is if that afterlife does not exist.

>You can choose to reject or accept it.

That's true of anything, but does not have any bearing on how well or poorly supported a claim is. It's what you fall back to when you can't defend it. "Well you either believe or you don't, end of story".

There exist ways to know Christianity is false. It is not necessary to make any leap of faith. It is possible to concretely disprove.

>>126125244
>I'm not done yet. Step 1 is just to get you to the point where you will acknowledge that it at least would look from the outside, indistinguishable from any other cult, being that it is a group of dependent followers of a man who claims to be God.

Right, and I refute this, because its leaders would be the ones getting flayed our crucified. Your analogy is inherently flawed because religious tolerance exists today in many societies, while persecution was the standard previously.

>Ask that question of any of the men in history who have commissioned immense statues and memorials to themselves, wishing to be glorified post-mortem.

We are not discussing a man forgoing buying a boat or second home to establish his legacy. Christ's sacrifice was corporal, and horribly tortuous at that. Men do not willingly accept this kind of torture for the kind for the thought that they might be remembered well. He would have believed in an afterlife, and thus was not a charlatan. Moreover, you are looking at history in retrospect, instead of forward. For a lair only concerned with His legacy, what evidence existed for Christ that He would be remembered on such a grand scale? He was dying alone and abandoned by his disciples in a backwater of the Roman empire.

So the Eucharist is still bread and wine as a physical substance when you partake, but gains the spirit of Christ? Or are you all saying it turns into blood and body inside you like has Jesus' DNA?

>>126123424
The scripture is incontrovertible.

Six main passages in the N.T. provide the Biblical evidence: Mt. 26: 26-29; Mk 14: 22-25; Lk 22: 14-20; John 6: 25-71; 1 Cor 10: 14-22; 1 Cor 11: 17-34.

The first three of these are the Last Supper discourses in the synoptic Gospels ("Take, eat. This is my body" -- the doctrine of Transubstantiation *simply takes those words literally*)

1 Corinthians 10-11 ("Whosoever shall eat this bread, or drink the chalice of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord" -- this makes no sense if the bread is a mere symbol, but makes perfect sense under the Catholic understanding of the Real Presence)

Further detail and exposition of scripture here:

https://www.catholic.com/tract/christ-in-the-eucharist

>>126125441

You are in a real cult right now. You don't realize it for the same reason nobody in a cult ever realizes that's what they are in.

As proof, you will not defend Christianity against this allegation but instead assume I am a liberal and hold a set of views you don't like, then proceed to lump all of those views together as if they are a religion and accuse me of being in it.

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>>126122504
>Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.


In every record of the gospels using that word outside of explicit genealogy, it is used in reference to the Jews that hate and try to kill Jesus.

Generation = Kike
get it?

>last hour
Also can mean season or time or age in Greek. It means general period of time. Not necessarily a literal hour. Last Period of man's history. The last Chapter in a book is what he would use to day..

More to come

>>126125527

Christianity is itself descended from a cult, though. It doesn't approve of competition? Well no shit.

>>126125623
>implying God could be humiliated
Nothing humans can do could humiliate God. Humans are worthless sinners bumbling around and failing God in every moment of their pathetic lives. Christ knew exactly what would happen, and had known since the beginning of time itself. He can say whatever He wants - He's still God, and His Will shall always and forever be done in each and every moment. The only existences capable of failing His Will are humans, which routinely disobey Him and are judged accordingly.

>>126102001
As an Orthodox I can confirm that it is quite essential. We are given bread and wine by a priest on weddings and it is embedded in our culture and traditions. I don't know someone who believes it truthfully but we like keeping it as a tradition.

>>126102001

Death to those who do not believe in trasubstantiation.

>>126125817
>Right, and I refute this, because its leaders would be the ones getting flayed our crucified.

Is it absolutely impossible for a cult to end in the way you describe without it being true? What if the leader believes his own claims?

>We are not discussing a man forgoing buying a boat or second home to establish his legacy. Christ's sacrifice was corporal, and horribly tortuous at that. Men do not willingly accept this kind of torture for the kind for the thought that they might be remembered well.

They do if they drink their own kool-aid. I can believe he really thought he was the son of God. However he wasn't.

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>>126125893
Generation
A classic Example of the Jesus's use of it

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,

30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.

31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.

32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.

33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.