Is fishing immoral?

>>964643
Fish feel no pain. Also you have to eat, don't feel bad one day you too will be food for others.

Fish are very primitive organisms and jabbing a hook through the very soft tissue of their lips doesn't hurt. Some fish bite the same hook two or three times, if not more.

If you kill and eat a fish or any other animal, you should instantly feel better about yourself because you've proven that you can go out and put meat on the table like a man should be able to. Buying everything in grocery stores has neutered our society. Nothing is more satisfying than eating something that you caught or hunted and processed yourself.

>>964649
>Fish are very primitive organisms
Fish today are just as evolved as you are, just under different selection pressure
>>964648
>Fish feel no pain
Yes, they do
Catch and release fishing is animal torture
>>964643
>Is fishing immoral?
Morality is relative and subjective

>is fishing immoral
No silly goof. Fishes don't even have feelings! <3

>>964667
>Yes, they do
I have never saw one crying of pain, until I see it then they don't.

>>964643
I never catch anything anyway so no.
I eat what I catch given it is over the limit and in good shape. Bad shape = bad eating. It's relaxing and calming while occasionally providing dinner. I see no issues with it whatsoever.
I can assure you that the fish I catch and eat suffers less in the time it has my hook in its mouth than the source of your average animal product you find in the supermarket.
Pure holier than thou C&R is another story though (see below).

>>964667
>Catch and release fishing is animal torture
I agree completely. That whole 'I C&R therefore I protect and care about fish' is nonsense. If you really wanted to protect and care for fish then I suggest your first step is to not pierce them with hooks.

>>964669
>I have never saw one crying of pain, until I see it then they don't.
I have never seen a person perish from hunger therefore hunger does not exist.

Extensive studies have been made into pain of more 'primitive' animals you know. Last I checked the general consensus was that although fish did not feel pain per se they did feel a (strong?) discomfort.

all the fags in this thread better be vegetarian

File: IMG_0017.jpg (1MB, 1936x1936px) Image search: [Google]

1MB, 1936x1936px

>>964643
I am doing good for the environment

Proper catch and release isn't wrong, you shouldn't be fishing with improper care that leads to the mortality of fish.

If you catch and cook, make it a proper kill.

You should see some ways nature harvests fish, birds tearing them up with talons, same with bears, and other birds and fish that just swallow others whole.

I know that doesn't mean we should be cruel- but as long as fish-handling is kept at a minimum damage its no question its fine to do

>>964710
>proper catch & release

There really isn't any such thing. Even with barbless hooks and careful reintroduction mortality rates, just from stress, are 15% (that's the most conservative number some estimates are much higher). You would probably kill less fish by not size grading and just keeping your daily bag limit.

>>964667
Fish do not in fact, feel pain.

Why would you refute something you know nothing about.

File: chinese-spongebob-o.gif (514KB, 320x240px) Image search: [Google]

514KB, 320x240px

>>964643
Human kind is just as much a part of nature as a bear or a fish. Generally speaking, fish dying from being caught die a much better death than being eaten alive by a bear or being grabbed by the spine and dropped 100ft onto a rock by an eagle. People tend to assume that man is a dangerous interloper on nature, but that's not the case at all. Here's a fun statistic for you: an adult deer will live an average of 15 years in captivity, yet in the wild, they tend not to pass 8. This doesn't change when hunters are absent either. Things just don't live long enough to die of old age in nature.

tl;dr You are part of the animal kingdom and if you don't kill it, somethig else will.

>>964721
Lol this is true for some speiceces but I can fuck fuck a fucking catfish and toss that kitty back in.

>>964800
How drunk are you right now?

>>964643
>immoral
>im·mor·al
>i(m)ˈmôrəl/
>adjective
>adjective: immoral
>not conforming to accepted standards of morality.

Seems find with current standards of morality.

>>964643

Yes, very. Now go waste your life protesting at a boat landing instead of shitposting here

>>964800
I actually agree and I routinely practise catch and release, I just like throwing the facts out there for all these people, outfitters, and places, that require catch & release, especially on fish like inland salmon and trout which are often protected.

>>964725
They obviously have their own form for survival avoidence and such

>>964819

Fight or flight doesn't have to be triggered by pain

>>964643
Is this thread bait?

>hint: yes it is

I'm a biologist, I can confirm fish have no souls. Fish away.

>>964819
Will to survive =/= pain
Fish biologists, ichthyologists, neurobiologists, etc, all agree that fish do not really feel pain and certainly not in the way we do.
Even plants have a survival instinct and use electro-chemical processes to communicate danger through root networks and in some cases can even increase certain chemicals to make themselves more bitter and less palatable, but they obviously don't feel pain

>>964643
Serious answer:
You are a predator.
All humans are. Like all predators, you must kill and eat to live. You cannot survive by making your food ex nihilo; other organisms must make it, and you must eat them. This is your role in Nature and existence. Whether that being has a consciousness or not is immaterial. You are a hunter, a killer, and an eater of living things. Killing is your prerogative by right of existence as a predatory species; all another being can do is try to escape, attempt a successful defense, or try to kill you first.
If you wish to be a more responsible eater of living things, you can set rules for yourself to abide by. You are a rational being, and are able to do this. A reasonable restriction for those like us would be to consume as much of our kills as we can, and/or to waste as little as possible. But this is not required-the natural prerogative trumps all, and if we leave waste behind, it is merely an opportunity for the rest of nature to exploit, and they will.

>>964667
You never actually bought that 15 dollar rod at all did you?

>>964839
If you only consumed fruits and vegetables that had already fallen from the vine/tree, making sure to remove the seeds and scatter them, and only scavenged for meat, you could survive without killing any organisms.

>>964903
Not a chance.
How many bacterium were growing on that banana ?

>>964819
Yeah they just compensate by having a hundred kids a year.
>>964667
Oh I'm sorry I didn't notice your fish had a glock.
Yeah they're primitive. I'm not sure if you know what that word means

>>964669

That's ridiculous. They don't have the physical capacity to vocalize.

Fish are highly sensitive to physical stimulus. There's no reason to assume that they can't feel pain.

>>964832
Elaborating on this as I'm a fisheries biologist and deal with hundreds of thousands of fish on a daily basis
I personally havent studies this. But I have my opinions

Fish certainly react to outside stimulation but I strongly believe that they don't feel pain like mammals or even reptiles/amphibians
I've seen fish completely ignore the fact they have a hole in them and their guts are hanging out
It's not uncommon to see this actually

>>965006
>There's no reason to assume that they can't feel pain
Well there is reason if you believe in science and logic.
Fish do not have a neocortex and very few have the nerve fibers capable of transporting data to feel pain.
Even so these receptors don't necessarily send "conscious" pain, they more likely send "unconscious" signals as their brain isn't developed enough and as we all know fish don't seem to care too much about having a hole in the side of them.

No reason to be a dick to animals but there is a dangerous notion where people project their ego onto other living things.
Mammals are incredibly unique, the way we feel pain and emotions is incredible.
There is still research in the topic but going from current literature there is no reason to believe fish nor bacteria can feel pain, pain is completely different from physical stimuli and if that is your only requirement for pain then plants feel it too.

>>965006
>Fish can't vocalize.

Clearly a fucker has never caught a catfish

>>964643
You say you hate fishing but you're fishing with some pretty shitty bait right now

No matter how brutally you catch the fish it's still a quicker and less painful death than most predators would give it, At least you'll have the decency to bludgeon it before you start digging in.

A fish getting caught is about as bad as when the doctor shoves a stick down your throat at a check up. Unpleasant, but ultimately harmless. If you're fishing right your hooksets should always be perfect on the outer lip.

Say a prayer for the fish and be grateful that it gave its life to feed you.

Animals kill and eat other animals. Is nature immoral? Maybe so, but you're immoral for buying even meat at the supermarket if that's the case.

>>965473
This. Bass, at least, have a very thin skin membrane which is penetrated by the hook. They don't have nerve endings there because their prey, sunfish, etc. often have spiny fins which routinely puncture the same membrane that is punctured when fishing with hook and line.

>>964671
>pain per se they did feel a (strong?) discomfort.
it's more like a 'I am taking damage and should therefor react' kind of reaction.

>>964643
Once you learn how tasty they are you will be figuratively hooked on fishing.

>>966167
best post

>>964643
Is mowing the lawn immoral? Think about it... you take a razor sharp edge and slice thousands of blades of grass with it. Grass is a living thing and being repeatedly grown and cut is torture. How do you justify this? Doesn't it undeniably hurt the grass? How can any moral man mow the lawn?

>>964643
Fish here. Not taking this shit bait. We have standards. Sometimes we nibble just to fuck with ya'll. Only the Alzhiemers patients hit Beetle Spins, and we're glad to get of'em. Farewell and adieu to all Spanish ladies.

Those fish eat other fish to grow bigger, think of all the fishie babbies you are saving when you catch a fish

File: tumblr_m09plvItq51rqfhi2o1_400.gif (169KB, 350x197px) Image search: [Google]

169KB, 350x197px

by catching, and stabbing invasive species through the head, people are actually helping to save lives of native fish species

>>964829
>>964830

>>964643
You need to wrap your head around the Idea of pain vs suffering.

We have all felt pain that was a negative stimulus, without feeling the emotional component that turns it into suffering.

Most lower animals have limited ability to feel emotion, which you can prove just based on the complexity and size of their frontal cortex and amygdala/hypothalamus.

You can hurt a fish physically, and it will work very hard to avoid that stimulus. But the only emotional response it is capable of is aggression based on territorial instinct or breeding instinct.

You can make an argument for higher animals especially ones that are social experiencing suffering, but lower animals just feel pain

>Is fishing immoral
Moral = set of behavior characteristics of a society.

No society in the whole world, apart from some ultra vegan society that I do not know about yet, is against fishing.

You can have ethical discussions about the objectives of fishing, i.e.: "Is angling immoral?", but not fishing itself. If you are going to fish trying to get something that you will eat, by instance, calling this immoral is absurd.

>>964643
Many years ago I was fishing for perch in my Uncle's pond. Standard catch-and-release stuff.

Was having a good ole time until one fish I reeled in had a hook jammed right through the poor little bugger's eye. I'm not a big-time fisherman by any means; I've caught around ~20 or so in my years. But this was the first time having something like this happened; usually, it's 'just' through the mouth.

I removed the hook from his eye and threw him back, but that event stuck with me. I never intended to maim/cripple any creatures, but through my actions, that's just what happened.

Since then, I haven't fished, but I do still look forward to doing some fishing eventually. Like for catfish; something tasty.

If you're fishing to feed yourself or your family, then there's nothing wrong there at all. Hell, even if you're C-A-R fishing, so long as it's not excessive, then I suppose if it gives you pleasure, then what the hell?

That's my view, after all, there's plenty of fun things I can do that don't involve possibly permanently injuring creatures.

A small addendum:
When I was very young, I had a friend who also happened to be my neighbor(still my friend, and awesome guy), he had an in-ground swimming pool that never quite got fixed.

The thing was perennially green and happened to house much life... From wiggletails, to dragonfly larvae and even bullfrogs! One of those bullfrogs was missing an eye and the poor thing wasn't nearly as fat(healthy) as the rest.

The point of that story was to show how I learned just how important vision is to a wild animal's well-being.

>>964643
Do what we do in the UK, we're very careful about fishing here. I'll give you 10 quick tips on fish care from my fav fishing book, "John Bailey's Complete Guide to Fishing".
I'll write down his 10 rules of fish care here:

1. Always wet your hands before touching a fish

2. Wherever possible, remove barbs from hooks. This makes unhooking 10 times easier.

3. If possible, do not use trebles on spinners but only a single hook.

4. Try, wherever possible, to unhook a fish in the water and let it go free without ever leaving its environment.

5. Think very carefully whether you need to land a fish in a net and take it away from the waterside for photography or weighing. Only do this for important specimens.

6. If a fish is tired after its struggle, support it gently in the shallows with its head facing up river so oxygen passes through its gills. This can take many minutes, so don't be impatient.

7. Never keep fish in a keep-net. They suffer both mental and physical discomfort- sometimes so great that death results.

8. Don't be greedy. If you think you have caught enough fish pack it in for the day and let them rest and recover.

9. Always make sure that a fish swims away from you as pristine as the moment you hooked it.

10. When game fishing, if you want to take a fish for the table, take a male rather than a female. This especially applies to a female salmon, who's eggs are so precious.

Our catch and release is very good in the UK as we love our fish and take much better care of them than you US guys. If you can, try and get the book I mentioned. It's absolutely great and has many tips on keeping fish safe and in good condition

>>964667
>Morality is relative and subjective
no, please read around in these: https://www.reddit.com/r/askphilosophy/search?q=moral+relativism&restrict_sr=on

>>966159
could you provide evidence of this?

>>964698
Yeah fuck snakehead.

>>964643
>
>>964643
moraly you can kill a fish and eat it if you are hungry and witout food

>>967631
Much better bait than the OP but still mediocre.

poor fishies

>>967748
stay ignorant pleb

>>967922
>reads about moral relativism on reddit for an hour
>thinks he's enlightened
You do know you have access to books, right?

>>967593
All that shit you mentioned is basic fishing knowledge. The UK does not have a monopoly on careful fish handling or respecting wildlife.

>>967980 I've seen a shit tonne of bass fishing guy landing fish and then just throwing back in after holding it fucking awfully.

Not to mention that so many of them use barbed hooks.

I'd agree that the UK doesn't have a monopoly on proper fish care.

Either way, the idea was about fishing being ethical or not, in which if you follow those rules then it's perfectly fine and that was the original point of my comment.

>>967975
I assumed you had absolutely no idea what you were talking about (still assume so) so I linked some accessible reading

>>968147
One does see that type of behavior, but everything you posted is also common knowledge here in Canada and the USA.
Also, in their defence, bass are not at all like trout or salmon (the UK's most popular fish) they are much heartier and thick-skinned.

>>964643
>How can any moral man go fishing?

A bit more easily than he can do most of the other stuff he does everyday. Much of my life and most everything in it is made possible only through the death an suffering of a great many sentient and sapient creatures.

That I occasionally cause the discomfort/injury/death of a fish is perhaps the least of my crimes.

>>969702
There it is.

File: fish.jpg (77KB, 900x900px) Image search: [Google]

77KB, 900x900px

>>964643
Many of the fish you catch, eat other fish, so they hurt the smaller fish just as much as we hurt them. So you could say that we are just a bigger fish eating them ><(((º>

>>964643
If you're doing if for eating, then ultimately it doesn't matter.

If you're catching and releasing, at least know how to do shit. Work quickly and efficiently without crippling the thing.
I tend to use big hooks, which, in turn makes it harder for the dumb fucking fishes to swallow it and fucking die.

>>964643
>>956242

>tfw have a friend that decided to stop eating meet
>says fish is fine because they live in the ocean all the time and are just unlucky when they are caught unlike cattle which is "tortured"

>>964643
First of all, God gave man dominion over all the creatures of the land and sea so fuck em (to an extent)

Secondly, fish don't have brains that recognize pain in the way our brains /mammalian brains in general do, it's just another stimuli to them.

Thirdly, a properly set hook will land in a spot with minimal feeling nerves meaning they wouldn't feel "pain" anyways

File: C6sOveVVoAAnJdB.jpg (121KB, 1200x1121px) Image search: [Google]

121KB, 1200x1121px

>>964643
quit being faggot, fish.

>How do you justify this?
fish fry taste good.

>How can any moral man go fishing?
hunger

>>970186
Not a veganfag but he's right. Bovine are pretty smart, and for the most part are kept in abhorrent conditions.

>>966159
It's essentially the same thing, if you cut yourself it hurts and you think I'm taking dage and must take action to prevent further damage, this is an evolutionary feature of all multicellular life.