First Aid Kit

>>909772
Good enough if you never leave your apartment.

>>909772
Add iodine
Tape (cloth tape)
More gauze

IMO.

>>909772
You're not a true sc/out/ if you don't have a complete pharmacy in your first aid kid yet no knowledge of how to properly use 98% of the drugs.

>>909772
Looks like a bunch of stuff...

I just bring bandaids, blister pads, a mylar blanket, and a tiny sak for the scissors and tweezers. And I guess bug spray and sunscreen but I don't count that as first aid.

>>909833
Please enlighten me, master.

>>909772

It's retarded, the youtube who invented it is a dumbass.

>>909772
you need a high heat torch, to super heat metal pokers to stab into puncture wounds.
Also, 30 SPF isn't worth shit, need atleast 110SPF if you want to survive.

You can get gauze with a clotting agent in it. Don't use quick clot unless you want that shit scraped out of your wound when you go to the hospital.

>>909772
Is some of the stuff just not pictured? I also can't identify the items on the right, and below the shears.

Ditch the QuikClot, packing gauze and tourniquet. That tourniquet is retarded, and I can't imagine you'd apply it correctly when needed anyway. Also, unless you actually know how to pack wounds, you shouldn't, especially with QuikClot.

Bandaids, steristrips, gloves, shears and the gauze pads are good. Pack more gauze.

Add tape. You need something to secure the pads. A small bandage is also fine.

Get rid of the syringe. Some saline steritubes are fine. Just saturate a gauze swab with it and use that if you want to clean a wound a little bit.

Replace those "triple antiobiotic" wipes with iodine wipes.

Emergency blanket, triangular bandage and hand sanitiser are some other additions.

And importantly, do a first aid course. Don't pack anything you don't actually know how to use.

>>909946
Most QuikClot today is sold in the gauze form, but it needs to be packed. I doubt most people really know how to pack properly. Besides, it's completely unnecessary in almost all situations. Direct pressure is still what counts.

>>910083
This rght here is your answer

If you think thats a good kit you probably don't know how to properly use half the items in it. If don't know how to use them then you can cause even more damage in the long run.

>>909772
Too many gimmicks, ditch the quickclot, you don't need nor do you know how to use hemostats, dump the TQ, add lots of gauze and some medical tape. Also tweezers. Also, ditch the rehydration salts.

>>909772
What is the extent of your medical prowess?

>>910083
different anon. this is helpful. where do you suggest buying all of this?

>>909772
I always have a few plastic vial of saline solution.

>>910232
Most of it I was able to buy from a pharmacy (Australia). Beyond the basic boo-boo stuff, for things like emergency blankets and shears, you might have to look online.

>>910655
Sometimes hospitals will have surgery supply stores inside of them, or at least be able to tell you where to go nearby. Uniform shops will have things like trauma shears.

>>910232
Amazon, or go to a decent pharmacy, they always have good FAK stuff, the one i go to has everything i need, meds, boo-boo stuff, steri-strips, inadine etc

>>909772

>Sunscreen and oral rehydration but no bandages
>Tourniquet and syringe but no dressings

Might as well just kill yourself now

>>910092
Jokes on you man, my first aid kit is nothing but TQs and shit i dont know how to use.

Really its a cls bag i got from my last deployment, it worked over there but its missing/needs more of shit for everyday stuff. Bandaids, burncream, blisters ect.
Dont imagine too many lungs get collapsed vs idiots who cut themselves

>>909772
i just finished training as a medic in the US Army so i have some knowledge but little experience

get a shock blanket
replace the tourniquet with a CAT
the quikclot is not used too often except for junctional wounds, or when converting a tourniquet to a pressure dressing, and you don't have materials for either so my guess is you don't know how to use it and will put it somewhere non-compressible or some other shit. Also can't tell from the package what the chemical is but you should use the one with kaolin if you actually learn to use it.
the quikclot is essentially useless unless you expect penetrating trauma, in which case you should have occlusive dressings, or know how to make them
rehydration salts are good if you actually know how to measure how hydrated someone is but based on the contents of the kit you probably don't, and they're only useful in prolonged field care, which you wouldn't typically carry items for in your first aid kit but separately, somewhere you can get to with ease but without carrying. Trying to treat everything out of one bag is a pretty common mistake.
sun screen and bug repellant should be used prophylactically and are not first aid items.
i think i see a cravat under the shears but can't tell; that's a good item to carry, but on its own can't do nearly as much as it can with a SAM splint and ace wrap, or even just a SAM splint on its own

get some fucking tape

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This is my kit. The clear bottle is insect and poison ivy relief. Rest should be self explanatory. Knock on wood, i've never actually been injured while /out/ so I only know how to use everything here from in-home tests.

Criticism and recommendations are welcome.

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Ask away. I will be more than happy to answer all specific questions. Leave is boring. CONUS is boring.

>>913360
post aid bag opened up
also, how do you have your pockets arranged? Does your unit require you pack it a certain way?

I saw some of the SMTS instructors had high-speed helmets at Camp Bullis, are the ACHs still issued?

is there any reading material I should get at before going to my first duty station in a few weeks? AIT left a lot to be desired.

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>>909772
New EMT here. Trained, but with little experience outside of carting old people off to die and patching myself up from a life of /out/, /diy/, /asp/, and /k/ related pursuits.

I personally like to have trauma shears because they're good for cutting off tape without digging into your skin, can quickly expose an injured area for assessment and treatment, and can cut through pennies when you're more bored than you are worried about dulling your $6 shears.

For gauze, I keep 4x4 pads and a couple of rolls. I think I ended up with some 2x2 pads, too, which (if you have room for them) are nice for small stuff and not having to dick around with cutting up a 4x4 pad. Rolls are nice because you can use them as padding, to stuff wounds, to wrap large patches of fucked up/torn off skin, etc.

Liquid bandaid is magic. Antibiotics, antiseptics, aspirin, ibuprofen: magic.

I keep athletic tape and self adhesive bandage wraps, and I just bought one of those rolls of water proof tape to play around with.

Butterfly bandages are super rad, I've used them on myself more than I would like to have. For anons who don't have room, /diy/ butterflies can be made with tape, though the real thing is much more convenient.

If it's a FAK I plan to use on someone else, I'll bring a stethoscope and a BP cuff because it makes the normies think I know what I'm doing. It also tells me a bit more about what's going on and gives me sets of vitals to pass on to a medic or nurse if things are really that fucked. I've never used them in an off the job first aid context when it mattered.

In winter, I keep dark chocolate (sugar and caffeine help keep hypothermia at bay), caffeine pills, more chocolate, chemical hand/toe/body warmers (usually x2 each stay in my FAK and I'll carry more if I actually intend to use them), and make sure I have materials for a Palmer furnace (pic related, I'll have multiple lighters outside my FAK but keep one set aside with a big trash bag and 2 or 3 tea candles).

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>>913520
I should carry a SAM splint, but I don't because I've been too lazy to buy one and figure it's easy enough to /diy/ innawoods. I should get one anyway, though.

I have a tourniquet (it's a CAT) with a Sharpie stuck to it. Study up on tourniquet use so you don't do more harm than good and write down the time it was applied so the receiving facility can make the right decision on how to deal with it.

Nitrile gloves are required if you're dealing with other people--might also be a good idea for dealing with yourself since your hands can get nasty while /out/.

I probably missed something, but that's what happens with rambling sleep deprived shitposts. If I think of anything later I'll add it.

Take a first aid course or better. Practice your skills, don't just buy supplies in the hopes they'll be magical health talismans. Stay safe.

I think the problem that most people have with building a first aid kit is that they think that they're going to need to be some sort of field medic. Anyone who actually spends any real time /out/ knows that the biggest issues you ever might have to deal with are insect bites, sunburn, giardia and the occasional cut or scrape. You should probably be prepared for a broken bone, but unless you or someone you travel with is an idiot, there's no reason to expect it.

Antihistamines, aloe, antidiuretics, pain killers, band-aids and a working cell phone are all you really need. Throw in a couple other basic things if you think you might use them, but unless you have serious medical training, you probably shouldn't be using anything else anyway.

My kit: Bandana, Opiates, Ethenol, Benadryl. I can sterilize and close a wound, tie back a sprain or splint a break, stop diarrhea, sterilize water, eliminate the distraction of pain, or even make a tourniquet, if things ever got that bad. Knowledge and improvisation are the two most important things to take with you anywhere.

>>913529
>you or someone you travel with is an idiot
This is why I bring 80% of the things I bring. For instance, I started carrying several instant ice packs (at least in my car kit) because my last gf liked to climb and run and jump more than was advisable and didn't pay the best attention to her surroundings. I started carrying butterfly bandages because a lapse in judgement resulted in a deep laceration to my thigh which widened as I walked. I carry liquid band aid because I ripped the skin off of my shin and didn't have enough material to change the dressing, so I left it on for a few days and ended up with a nasty necrotizing mess.

Excellent post, though, solid insights. Bandanas are one of my favorite /out/ tools, and I like shemags for a lot of the same reasons.

>>913353
This one's minor, but consider replacing your scissors with trauma shears or at least blunt tips. If the situation is urgent you don't want to risk accidentally stabbing yourself.

You almost certainly don't need oral antibiotics. Some saline steritubes for some minor irrigation are good. Anything more critical you should go to a doctor anyway.

Are those meds in the blue top bottle? Again, minor, but I would keep drugs in their foil packets, so anyone can identify them and you reduce risk of medication error.

I'd add an emergency blanket, gloves and a triangular bandage. Overall this is a pretty good kit.

>>913521
>Take a first aid course or better

Always this.

>>913529
I appreciate the sentiment. There are a lot of kits that go over the top. You don't need a military style trauma kit with quikclot, cric kits and decompression needles.

The single most important thing is training, and you should build your kit around what you've been trained to do.

Saying that, unless you're accustomed to stressful situations where you're the one at risk, relying on improvisation might not be the best call. You /can/ improvise a TQ from a bandana, for example, but that doesn't mean you're going to do it right when it counts. And you /can/ do a lot of damage to yourself with an improper (or a proper) TQ.

Training, training, training.

Are there second aid kits too?

>>913532
That's a pretty fair point. If I were out with other people that I knew were planning on foraging, I'd pack some activated charcoal or if I were taking a dog I would check the benadryl dosing for their weight and pack extra for those "what's poison ivy smell like?" moments that dogs have.

>>913555
It's worth noting too, that the more a person would need to rely on self treatment, the more cautious they should be. I've never been injured seriously while out, but I've made my share of dumb mistakes while at home. One thing I've noticed (for me, no one should count on this) is that I'm very calm and focused when I'm in those situations myself, but I might panic if someone else gets injured.

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>>913412
This was my first aid bag: unit is too high-speed for packing lists but not high speed enough to get away from the ACH (mostly because retarded schools still require them) Get a Ranger Medic handbook and start memorizing meds, doses, and how to pronounce them. Look up basic clinical tests for joints and physical therapy. Know what McMurray's is and how to detect problems through it. Make sure you know how to put wound closures in (sutures, staples, etc) and how long they have to be there before they come out. Shit, there's a lot of things they don't really teach you. Mostly just stay smart and keep learning stay humble; but know what you're doing. Fuck man, give me specifics.

>>913573
Yes. It's called a hospital.

>>913674
are there day courses for things like the meniscus tear test?

>>913674
>Mostly just stay smart and keep learning stay humble
A+ life advice my friend, and especially pertinent in emergency medicine.

>>913674
>Ranger Medic handbook
What's the current version? I'm looking for .pdf files and the newest I'm finding is 4th edition from 2011.

>>913684
No, there is just learning on your own and learning from your PA.
>>913696
It's ever-changing
>>913700
It's a start: I recommend a physical, waterproof copy

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>>913728
Sorry, moved devices, dropped my trip.

I also had gotten a new bag before leaving on my first deployment. Basically, moved the fluid compartments to the sides and got much MUCH better straps.

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>>913733
Added collars for possible MVA's or fucked-up rappelling. Came in handy.

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>>913735
Migraine cocktail ingredients: 4mg Ondansetron, 25mg Diphenhydramine, 10mg Toradol. Anti-nauseal goes innabag, antihistemine goes innaline, flush line, add anti-inflammatory to line. Know this and become the god of the drunkards.

>>913728
>I recommend a physical, waterproof copy
Fair enough. I'm hoping to start civilian paramedic school in August and figured that might make good supplemental reading.

>>913735
What kind of collars are those? They seem to pack a lot more neatly than the ones we have on the ambulance. Also, what is that pack called? The inside seems well-designed.

>>913744
Just the Ambu adults. Pack is BDS: http://www.bdstacticalgear.com/pd-combat-trauma-medic-bag.cfm

>>913675
Sadly, that's make sense.

>>913735
>>913744
In Australia we're moving away from hard collars to soft collars. Anything similar in the US? From what I've seen nearly all patients get collared.

>>913982
Haven't heard anything on that yet, but current protocols in my state have been emphasizing only using collars and back boards if legitimately deemed necessary instead of doing it to every patient just in case like we used to do.

>>913747
Neat, thanks.

>>912130

I had a friend who has a IFAK, about 90% of the shit he has....no training or even know how to use it. Fucker even has IV bags in his kit. Given, this guy is also like 400 pounds too...Wtf is with fatties and prepping?

>>914048
No idea man. You figure anybody who would "prep" would start by making sure they wont have a heart attack. I guess roleplaying is fun for everyone though

I know how to use all the shit in my bag but its not suited for the type of stuff id actually use a first aidkit for. I literally have 10 CATs, 4 npaps, 3 samsplints, 4 decompression needles, a couple packs of quikclot, a couple chest seals and a fuckton of guaze. Im sure im missing some stuff but thats off the top of my head, oh yeah ive got a couple pairs of gloves and some sheers too.


I think like neosporin, asprin, and bandaids would handle 90% of cases id run across and i have none of that

>>914077
Well what the hell you postin here for? Go fix your kit!

I pack the neosporin ketchup pack things in my personal kit (large kit has a tube).
Gauze/ace wrap is very handy! So don't leave that shit out. I do have some small bandaids for fingers/knuckles and some liquid bandaid but for larger bandages I have a few military surplus bandages that are pretty neat,all in little containers to easily dole out to my first aid bags (personal, vehicle, hunting, and car camping)

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>>909772
I just picked up this case because I'm a sucker for ALICE gear. It's empty: how should I pack it for maximum efficiency? Use the standard packing list, or is there better shit for /out/? The hard case is 4-3/4" L x 2-3/8" W x 5-1/2" H.

>>914692
There's been some good suggestions in the thread mate. Pack items within your level of training.

>Gauze pads for wound dressing
>Gauze swabs for cleaning and other uses
>Tape for securing dressings
>Bandages (roller and triangular) for securing dressings and other stuff
>Gloves, shears and hand sanitiser
>Saline for wound irrigation
>Iodine for wound cleaning
>Alcohol wipes equipment cleaning and nausea
>Bandaids
>Emergency blanket

Consider also a windlass tourniquet, if you have training.

Avoid quikclot or any packing gauze unless you've been trained how to pack wounds.

>>909858
Too much retarded roleplay shit, not enough useful stuff.

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>>909772
What's a good first aid pouch that is immediately recognizable as a first aid pouch but wouldn't look autistic on a normie-tier school backpack?

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>>915915
I don't like immediately recognizable because if you're near a situation you'd more than likely fuck up worse or not equipped to handle, you might be mistaken for someone who knows what they're doing.

as soon as I have the funds I plan to get pic related (and remove the logo so I won't look autistic) because it has a fuckton of exterior pockets I can stuff with things and I can carry my laptop and other shit in it

>>909833
its like half trauma kit, half creature comfort. Not survival. Get rid of bug wipes and shit, throw in some tourniquets and medical tape

>>913360
If you're in ACU's even on leave from OCONUS, you must be someplace that doesn't requre medics. Like Kuwait or some shit. Combat medics these days wouldn't be caught dead wearing ACU's

>>916420
>you might be mistaken for someone who knows what they're doing.
But I do know what I'm doing, I just don't want to look like an autistic old man when I go back to school.

>>916424
>someplace that doesn't requre medics
Somebody has to be there to trade buttsex for hangover IVs.

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Compiled from past first-aid threads, feel free to add any missing items you think might be useful;

Alcohol swabs
Band-Aids
Batteries
Bic lighter
Butterfly bandages
Caffeine pills
Chapstick
Cotton balls
Duct tape
Emergency blanket
Eye wash kit
Flashlight
Gauze
Glasses repair kit and/or extra contact lenses
Hard liquor
ID and info
Iodine swabs
Liquid bandages
Magnifying glass
Maxi-Pads as trauma bandages
Meds (allergy, pain, Benadryl, etc.)
Metal wire
Mirror
Moleskin
Multi-tool
Needles
Notepad
QuickClot
Rehydration salts
Rubber gloves
Rubber tubing for tournaqutte
Safety pins
SAM splints
Scissors
Sewing kit
Snake bite kit
Super Glue
Surgical skin stapler
Surgical tape
Swiss army knife
Tick pen
Tweezers
Twine
Vetwrap
Water
Water purification tablets
Whistle

>>909772


I'm guessing you're an ameribro

One thing I notice about 1st aid kits from over there- you're all equipped to deal with sucking chest wounds with emt shears and sum funky blood loss prevention devices but never seem to carry basics like imodium, antihistamines or small sticking platers/steri strips moleskin or nsaids.

is /out/ over there really somewhere you need stuff like this on a regular basis or are us europeans just less likely to encounter gunfire and mayhem and more likely to get the shits and blisters?

>>916639
We have more war vets shaping the survivalist market, and they fill the kits with what they know. People buy this stuff because they've either seen some shit in the Sandbox, they live by the Boy Scout motto, or they just want to be cool.

If I walk into a regular drug store and grab one of the first aid kits, I'm not likely to find an occlusive dressing. I'm not even likely to find one by itself on the shelf. Even working as an industrial pipe fitter we didn't have CATs or anything fancy in our big first aid kit. All of the basics you listed are available in abundance, but the specialized emergency trauma stuff has to be ordered online or picked up at a rare specialty shop.

>>916639
I carry shit to treat emergencies (loss of life/limb/eyesight) and leave other shit elsewhere where it can be easily accessed.

>>916423
you don't need tq unless you are trained medic you really shouldn't use them anyways. when you really really have to use a tq because it's life or death and loss of limb is acceptable you can improvise one from just about anything.

what you need in a fak is shittons of gauze, iodine, tape, and scissors and sterile gloves. that's all everything else is not about first aid but pure undiluted bullshit.

>>909945
lol
white people

>>916857
>loss of life
are you a necromancer?
could you teach me to your dark secrets?

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>>909772
Who else /WFR or WEMT certified/ here? Here's what I carry for my job

>CPR barrier mask
>Several pairs of plastic gloves
>a couple trash bags and ziplocks seem really basic, but can be used to dispose of hazardous waste or create an occlusive barrier, preventing infection or keeping bones from drying out
>Benzoine Peroxide and Iodine tablets
>Ibuprophen, advil, tylenol, oral antibiotics
>Sam's Splint
>Gauze rolls, medical tape,and a few sterile trauma pads
>Moleskin
>At least three cravats
>tweezers
>Honey packets and saltines (quick dose of sugar and/or salt in a waterbottle for idiot diabetics that pass out, hyperhydration, and people who didn't eat enough breakfast)
>Hand Sanitizer
>mylar blanket
>hydrocortisone and bacitracin
>epi-pen
>SOAP Notes in waterproof notebook + tiny pencil to pass on to medical personnel once patient is in the frontcountry

>>910083
Generally a good answer but the only thing I'd disagree with are bandaids, which are absolutely fucking useless in my experience. They get wet and fall off super easily, and have limited configurations for how you can apply them. Gauze + medical tape is a billion times more customizable and stays on much longer

>>913520
>palmer furnace
hey that's pretty clever, I'll have to try this.

>>916648
The key is to be smart and know how to use what you have for multipe purposes. Few people realize that you can make a really fucking sturdy splint or C-collar using a rolled up sleeping pad and some windbreakers, or that occlusive dressing you mentioned? That can be built out of plastic bags and medical tape to treat a sucking chest wound should you ever even encounter one. I don't care if it sounds cheesy but the most useful piece of gear you have is your knowledge of the tools you have, practice, and how to stay calm in a disaster scenario and remember the treatment algorithms you've trained with.

>>917247
Most ordinary people won't know how to improvise an effective model of tourniquet, and having to improvise it under stress will make it even less likely they create an effective tourniquet. An ineffective tourniquet can lead to a range of serious complications.

I'm not saying they're essential items, but there are times it would be sensible to have one. Most importantly, watching a 5 minute youtube video isn't enough to make you competent. Take a course. At least in the US, it should be easy to find a course that covers commercial tourniquets.

>>917446
I'm guessing your work is related to your certs. Why don't you carry any airway adjuncts, though? Why a CPR mask and not a pocket BVM? It's not that much larger. And why antibiotics but no saline to clean out wounds?

Not criticising, just curious if there's particular reasons.

>I'd disagree with are bandaids, which are absolutely fucking useless in my experience.
Proper fabric ones are really good, but I understand where you're coming from. I just think they take up very little space and are more convenient than cutting up gauze.

>>917456
I'm WFR certified and work in a rock climbing gym, doing day trips for adults and kid's summer camps where frontcountry medical access isn't too difficult to get to
>airway adjuncts
>pocket bvm
Honestly not bad ideas, it's just that the way I was taught at SOLO Schools up in Conway NH where they stressed manual airway cleaning methods and technique over gear, and the teachers I had basically told me when I asked that the difference in accuracy between a BVM and airway adjunct with the techniques they taught us to manually clear airways and administer rescue breaths were minimal. Everyone who took the program pretty much modeled their own kits off of those belonging to our instructors.
With the gauze & tape v.s. bandaid issue to each his own I guess. All what you prefer and the amount of trash you're willing to deal with.

>>917464
We still do manual clearing, like triple/double airway manoeuvres, and inspect for obstruction before inserting an adjunct to prevent occlusion, especially when the pt is supine. Like you're right, you can just do it manually, roll them over, etc, but if they need to be supine, i.e. resus, then an OPA would be useful.

Pocket BVMs are pretty good, I'm planning on getting one myself mainly to keep in my car. Completely unnecessary to have when I'm in the city with ambulances so close by, but a little further out it'd be nice to have if needed.

For bandaids, I just think a stack of a dozen or so takes up no more space than a gauze pad, so that's a dozen small dressings. If you cut a pad for just one, whatever you're left with is no longer sterile. For personal application maybe not too bad, but as a first responder you can't be using unsterile dressings. If you've got a bigger bag, with so space for dressings it's not so much a problem, I'm just trying to be compact because I carry this pouch in my bag regularly.

>>917470
who did you train with?

>>917472
Sorry I should specify I'm not doing anything wilderness specific. I'm studying paramedicine at university in Australia.

>>917475
Haha fuck, no wonder there's a difference in standard procedure. What you have to understand about SOLO (The organization founded by Dr. Frank Hubbel in the 1970s that literally created the concept of wilderness medicine) is that we're trained here to work with our bare hands and use small first aid kits and camping supplies to save people's lives.
Funnily enough I had one instructor who was a paramedic from Australia and he kept going on and on about how much different and better the emergency medical care is here in the US than Aussie medicine.

>>917481
I like that sort of stuff. I'm quite jealous of the accessibility to so many varied courses in the US. I went looking for some wilderness responder training in near me, and couldn't find any I thought were reputable or extensive enough to be worthwhile. I try and extend on my knowledge of emergency medicine with course content from friends doing nursing, as an alternative. When you can't just zip the pt up to the hospital in a few minutes, nursing begins to overshadow emergency medicine.

So I do what I can, but am still really hoping to find something like WFR. You don't happen to have any content to share, do you?

>>917489
here's their site. Sometimes they go abroad and do trainings in other countries so it might be possible for an aussie to learn their stuff through one of their partnership sponsors. These guys are basically the Greybeards of Wilderness Medicine.
http://soloschools.com/

also the training book they gave me for the course, still review it every now and then to stay fresh

https://www.amazon.com/Solos-Field-Guide-Wilderness-First/dp/0972030751

>>917495
Awesome man, I'll give it a look.

Things are pretty good these days. There's a gradual shift in Aus, with ambulance services going from exclusively "pre"-hospital to "out-of" hospital. So scopes are expanding to include low acuity, ongoing care and nursing stuff. And while I have no interest in being a nurse, there's still heaps medics can learn from nursing. Some really exciting developments happening to paramedicine in Australia, a really exciting time to be entering the field.

>>917499
Interesting. If you learn about the history of paramedic development here in the US back in the 60's, it actually sounds quite similar to what's happening in your country, and then Wilderness Medicine and GeoMed disciplines generally evolve from that. The cool thing about SOLO is that we had people from all over the globe fly in to get their WFR and/or WMT. There was a girl from japan and this one dude from Zambia that I got to meet. A few of theteachers are now headed to Cambodia to set up a temporary campus there too.

>>917501
I'll have to keep an eye out. Thanks for the info mate. Always looking for opportunities to expand my knowledge and experience and enhance my practice.

>>917456
>Most ordinary people won't know how to improvise an effective model of tourniquet
you think tq is some sort of magic that must be built to exact specifications? it's more about where you put it and how tight it is than anything. a belt a piece of clothing even a roll of gauze anything can be used as tq pretty quickly. you lose like 5 seconds tops. assuming it doesn't take 5 secs to find and open up your fak and ready the tq too.

tldr it's not magic it's just a fucking band.

>An ineffective tourniquet can lead to a range of serious complications.
now here is where you are talking total bullshit. a partial stop of blood flow does not cause side effects aside from well bleeding. if it's enough to just slow down the bleeding because help is on the way you probably don't want a full stop anyways.

>I'm not saying they're essential items, but there are times it would be sensible to have one.
yes in combat. and fro an emt that has to deal with a lot of bleeding patients very fast. not for you or 99.9% on this board.

>>917456
>>917794
I hope most of you fucking scubs realize that a tourniquet is a last resort device and can kill limbs in under an hour, causing need for amputation.
treatment algorithm for bleeds always goes as so

>band aid or taped on sterile gauze on wound
if that doesn't stop the bleed
>manual pressure of trauma pad on wound
if that doesn't stop the bleed
>digital pressure directly over vein/ artery, clamping if necessary
if that doesn't stop the bleed
>tourniquet as the very last resort

take a training course

>>917794
>you think tq is some sort of magic that must be built to exact specifications?

Even under test conditions, improvised tourniquets fail a third of the time, if made right. Try improvising an effective one under stress.

Even EMTs and other responders improvise tourniquets incorrectly.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26125163

> a partial stop of blood flow does not cause side effects

Simply wrong. This is why training on tourniquets are important. Because even if you know how to apply it correctly, you still might not understand the actual physiology. Tourniquets that are not tight enough to completely occlude arterial blood flow can still occlude venous return, which is bad. Paradoxical bleeding and compartment syndrome are examples of complications.

>not for you or 99.9% on this board.
Which is why I don't ordinarily carry them. But others, like hunters and people around firearms, for example, may be wise to have one around.

>tourniquet is a last resort device and can kill limbs in under an hour
Last resort, yes, but they /can/ be safely applied for some time over an hour. Although shorter times are always a plus and you should seek help as soon as possible.

Direct pressure is and will always be the gold standard for haemorrhage control. Even with fancy haemostatic agents, you still need to apply pressure for the same amount of time.

>take a training course
Yep. I've said it everytime I mention tourniquets.

>>918133
>Even under test conditions, improvised tourniquets fail a third of the time, if made right.
where do you get that bullshit anon? never heard of such thing.
>Paradoxical bleeding and compartment syndrome are examples of complications.
that's only if the tq is crushing the muscle nigga

>>918133
>https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26125163
looks to me the problem was in the materials used not the technique. t-shirt huh? not the first thing i would use.

but really how you gonna suffer an injury like a bomb taking off your leg in the woods? most sever shit i saw was accidents with a sharp axe. mostly cutting the hand and bleeding heavily, but not following proper protocol (ie apply pressure keep it above heart etc)

>>918156
>>918158
Trapping blood in an extremity will lead to increased pressures and associated complications. It doesn't have to be from direct compression by the tq itself. It's probably less of a concern with TQs for amputations, but like you said, you're not likely to completely lose a limb, but just have a serious wound.

Regarding improvised TQs... https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25710432

>At one collaborative hospital with detailed ED records and photos available, all six improvised tourniquets encountered were venous tourniquets and required replacement with a CAT tourniquet to prevent ongoing extremity exsanguination and effect hemostasis upon arrival in the ED. Similar reports exist from other collaborative hospitals, although detailed records are not available at those institutions to quantify precisely how many improvised tourniquets were venous or nonhemostatic.
>The most commonly encountered EMS tourniquet was an improvised tourniquet consisting of rubber tubing and a Kelly clamp
>Although it is certainly possible to improvise an effective arterial tourniquet, the data suggest that this is uncommonly done appropriately, especially under stress.4,10–16

The point is that people are shit at improvising effective TQs when they're actually needed and that ineffective TQs do not provide necessary haemorrhage control and that ineffective TQs lead to unnecessary complications. A TQ is a first aid item like any other. Some people decide they need one, others don't, and either way is fine. But the idea that if you do need one, you'll be able to effectively improvise one is just unrealistic, especially if you've never had to do it before. And that's something people need to consider when preparing for an emergency.

What items should I include for my /out/ dog? Vetwrap, muzzle, and a tick key are the ones I think of.

>>918156
>where do you get that bullshit anon? never heard of such thing.
ask any trained WEMT from the US

>>918179
Some of those little disposable plastic paw booties for their feet, they don't take up much space and can prevent infection if they get cut up. Not a bad idea since tetanus grows in soil and can be transferred through open sores.
I also improvised a little rain jacket for my doggo.

>>916564
That wouldn't leave room in my bag for anything else, you know like food, shelter, water, warmth...

Maxi-Pads as trauma bandages? Its PRESSURE that stops bleeding, not just soaking it up.

And a snake bite kit? Really..? Those cause excessive physical trauma and are proven to not reduce the concentration of venom in the wound.

Giving bad advice isn't a contribution to the conversation.

>>918162
we have been taught that apply pressure to the wound elevating the wound above the heart and applying pressure to the arteries in the joints (like armpit) is adequate to stop the sort of bleeding you get in most accidents. nobody gets taught tourniquet techniques for first aid here. maybe medics i never heard of it being used tho. the whole point is you don't want to cut the entire blood flow and you especially don't want to cut the return flow.

>>918538
>And a snake bite kit? Really..?
i second this they are complete bullshit

>>918578
Is this like EMT training or something in the States? But yeah, same here. Direct pressure, elevation where indicated and proximal pressure points when necessary. You're right to say you don't want to cut blood flow, but you balance the risks between bleeding out. And you learn to do that in training, but it is beyond the scope of basic first aid. And you're doubly right to say you don't want to cut venous return, if you haven't also occluded arterial flow. Much badness.

>>916564
>>918538
>>918579
Snake bite kits are the most bullshit destructive "medical devices" out there. Tetrotoxins and other venoms diffuse instantly on a cellular level, and the whole idea that people have of there being this sort of blob of it in there that you can somehow suck out shows an insane lack of understanding when it comes to human physiology and general chemistry.

You're basically bloodletting the victim like a medieval plaguedoctor when you should be reducing lymphatic flow around the bite wound with a light tourniquet and calling in a chopper to get them to the nearest antivenom-holding medical center. That's really all you can do.

Oh also the whole "suck and spit" method will only diffuse the venom into your cheeks and you'll die too.

>>918619
problem is if you try to keep the poison localized it will only do more tissue damage there you have greater chance of extensive necrosis.

it will probably your liver that neutralizes the toxin so just let it go is the best advice in the vast majority of cases.

>>918619


>Oh also the whole "suck and spit" method will only diffuse the venom into your cheeks and you'll die too.

Incorrect. Venom is protein based and will be broken down by digestive enzymes in your saliva. If you were to hold a mouth full of it for a long time, maybe it would cause a problem but just suck and spit despite it's ineffectiveness would not cause the 'sucker' any harm from the venom.

>>918717
No, you are incorrect. Take a professional wilderness medical training course and learn about membrane transfer of protein-based compounds. You can and will absorb venom through your gums and the walls of your cheeks, just as a person can absorb sugar, cocaine, tobbaco, etc. Your gums and the incredibly thin veinous tissue of the mouth is designed to do so. Even a bit of honey spread into the mouth can be enough to rouse an unconscious diabetic.
Suck and spit is deadly if the venom has not diffused immediately at best, and ineffective bloodletting at worst.

t. WEMT

>>918714
>problem is if you try to keep the poison localized
Impossible. There is no "blob" of venom like people picture there to be. Best you can do if tourniquet the limb where the bite is and hope to slow it down a tiny bit. Best thing to do is evacuate.

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>>918538
> That wouldn't leave room in my bag for anything else, you know like food, shelter, water, warmth...

Like I said, it’s a list compiled from past first-aid threads with everything people suggested.

All of the items are good to have in a first-aid kit but it’s not necessarily practical to carry them all with you.

> And a snake bite kit? Really..?

It was one of the suggestions so it was added to the list and it’s what we were taught in Boy Scouts (in the 1970s).

>>918919
>Even a bit of honey spread into the mouth can be enough to rouse an unconscious diabetic
Thank you!

>>918962
>It was one of the suggestions
I get that, but it should probably be removed from that list, or better yet added to a "generally not accepted as safe practice" addendum.

>>918981
>>918962
Honestly I thought snake bite kit referred to a some PIM bandages and a sharpie to mark fang marks.

>>918989
That may have been the intention, but as long as people who don't know any better can walk into a ChinaMart and purchase something that does more harm than good, its the responsibility of those who have knowledge to share it, and at least attempt to protect noobs from themselves.

>>918992
Top kek, this. I love when people with absolutely no training come on here and argue. But when it comes to wilderness medicine I get especially concerned.

>>918919
>Impossible. There is no "blob" of venom like people picture there to be. Best you can do if tourniquet the limb where the bite is and hope to slow it down a tiny bit.
that is what localizing means nigga, it only does more damage to the limb, bad idea according to experts. they suggest leave it the fuck be and find medical help asap.

>>918919
so if i drink snake venom (or gargle with it) i can build immunity?

Okay, people... The reason why the only official treatment for snake bites to immediately call for emergency assistance is because there is literally nothing you can do to treat it without antivenon. And since antivenon requires active refrigeration, costs a fucking fortune (if you can even find a place that will sell it to someone without a license), and requires knowing which type of venom you're trying to counteract in order to be effective, its not a viable solution to carry with you.

Most snake venom, however is most dangerous because of the swelling that it causes and the depletion of acetylcholine in neuroreceptors. Theoretically, large doses of benedryl and cholinebitartrate should reduce the effects of the toxin some to buy extra time, but would probably still not be sufficient as a treatment on its own.

>>919155
No, but regular injections of venom will. Shit's expensive, though.

>>919178
>No, but regular injections of venom will.
something doesn't add up then

>>919179
How do you mean?

>>919178
Sorry, I shouldn't have gone off of memory.

CORRECTION:
Venom may contain Acetylcholineasterase inhibitors, which effective cause receptor-level overdoses of acetylcholine; dosing with choline would make it worse.

>>919187
Nicotinic Acid / Niacin / Vitamin B-3 Reduces choline efficacy, which might be beneficial to snakebite victims.

>>919154
The proteins in snake venom are basically programmed to attack the site while simultaneously shutting down other organs and travelling further into the system. Localization is just one aspect of how snake venom does it's work.

>>919178
>on the internet, nobody knows you're a mongoose

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>>919216

>>915915
>caring what other people think
>getting a first aid pouch instead of a fanny pack
anon pls, it's that line of thinking that's stopping you from getting laid
https://www.mec.ca/en/product/5028-686/First-Aid-Bag

>>909772
What's the best solution for storing smaller-than-a-bottle quantities in a first aid kid? Small zip seal bags labeled with marker?

>>920731
Of drugs? I keep a small number together in a zip lock bag, but they're in their foil packets, so still identifiable by name, dosage, expiry date and general appearance.

>>909858
Seeing as no one wants to, I'll help you out. I am British army and this is the kind of stuff the troops would bring in a first aid kit (minus the bullet wound stuff)
>zinc oxide tape, great for blisters
>ibuprofen and paracetamol
>sling and bandages, you probably won't need these, but just in case
>antiseptic cream, stops your dick falling off
>petroleum jelly (Vaseline) stops chafing
>Imodium, stops you shitting yourself to death
>scalpel, not for surgery, for digging out glass, thorns etc
>safety pins, useful for keeping bandages in place
>felt plasters, in case you cut yourself
That should see you through nicely

>>920731
I saw a video where an individual use quantity of ointment was stored in a straw segment that was cut to length and heat sealed at either end. Seemed effective to me and was debating on trying it for my smaller kits. The problem is that it's pretty cheap to just buy them instead so why bother?

>>920741
No tea?

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Any tips on mine? Top set is for trauma, bottom set is for boo boos. Usually go in the woods with the IFAK on my belt and the boo boo kit in my back pack.

> Inb4 Hurr tourniquets are bad cause you'll do it wrong and your casualty will have long term muscle/nerve dammage instead of bleeding out in a couple minutes.

>>921025
You need a sharpie to record the time of application of the TQ. Also note sure why you have those elastic venous TQs. Why?

I'm iffy about the quikclot. If you're trained and competent in packing wounds and use of haemostatics, then sure, I guess. If you have no real training then give it a miss. If you insist, make sure you have the latest generation.

Is that a bottle of aspirin? There's more suitable drugs to take imo, that won't affect clotting factors.

Some of the packaging I can't really identify, but I imagine it's mostly gauze and a bulky dressing.

Add a triangular bandage, if you haven't got one. I'd add some saline steritubes for some minor irrigation. Add an emergency blanket. Pen and notepad. A disposable towel or something similar. Ensure you have enough gauze for dressing and cleaning. Can't really think of anything else right now, so look through the thread for anything I missed.

As always, make sure you're trained AND competent in everything you have. Especially haemostatic agents, tourniquets and NPAs.

it's shit. You need gauze and triangle bandages

>>909772
> ain't got time to bleed
probably useless, as the only thing you know how to use is the insect repellent

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>>921025
Good stuff anon, but I do have a few recommendations from what I'm able to see.
>At least 3 triangular cloth cravats to construct splints and wrappings
>Mylar blanket
>I recommend packing a CPR membrane barrier (and learning CPR of course!).
>Pack a little food, some saltines or an energy bar, along with some honey packets. You'd be amazed what a little sugar/ protein can do for a hypothermic, diabetic, or osmotically-imbalanced patient.


>>921093
>You need a sharpie to record the time of application of the TQ. Also note sure why you have those elastic venous TQs. Why?

You need to record much more than that. Keep a waterproof notebook and a pencil (ink smudges in wet conditions) if you want to properly hand off a patient to emergency services with a decent write up. The format is super easy, look up SOAP notes and how to write them.

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>>921093

The CAT has a marker attached to it. The smaller TQs I got from a local emt. They are incase i need more than one TQ. The quikclots are the ones already packed in sponges. Much easier to use than the powdered stuff. I've got rudementry training as well as a bunch of reading and youtube. Fairly confident in my ability to stop bleeding and bandage wounds.

Aspirin is incase someone starts having heart pain. Hopefully delay a heart attack long enough to get them rested and to better trained hands. 2 triangle bandages are in there as well as a couple other types of dressings, gauze, tape, compressed gauze, Israeli bandage, ace bandage, duct tape and gloves. The NPA I've been told about and I've read about but I've not had hands on training yet. It's a last ditch effort.

I keep it in my truck most of the time, it's 120 miles to the nearest hospital. The local paramedics are good but if I come across or am in a crash on the highway, no telling if I'll have cell service or what the response time will be.

>>921139
I've got food and an emergency blanket on hand in my truck and backpack, usually blankets, rags and such around too. I've taken a CPR course, will look for a membrane barrier eventually. Also keep pic related in my truck. Alaska winters and all.

>>921139
>You need to record much more than that ... if you want to properly hand off a patient to emergency services with a decent write up.
To be honest, the crew is likely to ignore a lot of what you tell them. If you've got time to write down thorough notes, chances are the pt will be well enough to talk to the crew themselves.

>>921218
>The smaller TQs I got from a local emt. They are incase i need more than one TQ
They're venous tourniquets, and will not stop an arterial bleed. Using them as arterial TQs will cause complications. If you need additional TQs, using your triangular bandages and scissors as a windlass is your best bet.

> The quikclots are the ones already packed in sponges. Much easier to use than the powdered stuff.
Sponge or gauze? iirc the sponge is the one that generates heat, which should be replaced with the new gauze.

Look man overall it's not a bad kit. Not over the top, and covers most bases. Just know your limits. The suggestion you'd use venous TQs as a backup is a little flag for me that you need more training. There's a lot of shit on the internet and it's hard to tell what's accurate without some solid background knowledge, so just be careful.

>>921275
They are skinnier and I understand a thinner TQ can cause tissue dammage easier. They were the ones I was most recently instructed on, they are quality enough to restrict the arteries, as effective as cloth and windlass would be at least. I imagine he couldn't hand out the quality stuff but it was given by a emt for use as an emergency tourniquet. Obviously not a CAT but that's why I have the CAT.

I do need more training and better funding. I'll admit that.

>>921283
Were you taught they can be used as arterial tourniquets? It's not just the size, it's the pressure. Those quick release TQs are used to assist in cannulation. They occlude venous return, so blood pools in veins, making it easy to locate and insert a needle. But for that to work, arterial blood needs to keep pumping.

So they're only tight enough to occlude veins, not arteries.

>>921288
It wasn't expressly stated that these will make an effective arterial tourniquet. But they were given to me after an overview on tourniquet application. So I'd imagine he has a little faith in them.

It would probably help to see them up close. The cloth on them is thick and the buckle is too, I imagine they tighten until they break. For hospital use, yes I imagine they don't tighten the ever loving shit out of them. If the buckle breaks I could just windlass it up.

If I ever need them, I'll keep it in mind to watch them closly.

>>921291
The only improvised TQ I've had suggested to me is a triangular bandage and a large set of forceps or a particular way to tie off an Israeli bandage. I'm not knocking you, because you can only go by what you're told by apparent professionals, but I have never heard of using those as alternative TQs. And frankly I wouldn't even attempt it.

I've seen rubber tubing used, and I think some US services might use rubber tubing as their venous TQs too... but rubbing tubing as an arterial doesn't work.

For what it's worth, buy a second CAT man. They should be pretty cheap in the States.

>>921295
I'll probably buy some more CATs eventually. My big draw to those were that my IFAK is stuffed and they are back up and compact.

>>921275
>To be honest, the crew is likely to ignore a lot of what you tell them. If you've got time to write down thorough notes, chances are the pt will be well enough to talk to the crew themselves.

This goes against everything I've been trained to do. Whether or not they choose pay attention to a SOAP note or not is not your problem, and if the patient is unable to respond, not being A&Ox3, then it can be critical if a doctor is to figure out what's wrong with them. Medical personnel understanding the mechanism of injury and how the patient's vital patterns varied right after the accident can mean the difference between life or death.

What I'm saying is that if you need to do CPR or set someone's leg, take the notes later if you can, and tend to the patient first.

>>921314
Also add gloves and hand sanitiser. PPE is so important, but so often overlooked.

>>921329
>This goes against everything I've been trained to do

My comment wasn't meant for people trained to actually be some kind of first responder, but the layperson coming across an incident (the majority of people in the thread). Look I guess you're right, I just don't expect the first time first aid responder to be reliable in giving me a handover. I'll ask questions I need answers to but I've had enough experience to know to bystander information is often unreliable. Arguably if they take notes they might be more accurate, but yeah idk.

>>921365
>I'll ask questions I need answers to but I've had enough experience to know to bystander information is often unreliable.
I see where you're coming from and quite frankly I'm one of those people who believes that at least two members of every /out/ excursion with multiple people should have some basic medical training, anything less is irresponsible. Also, something is better than nothing when it comes to recording information. People don't absorb much when you speak to them, especially in an emergency scenario, so quickly jotting something down is a lot more concrete.
At best, you give info that could save somebody's life (like brain injury symptoms or certain arythmia patterns that indicate life-threatening conditions where time is vital), at worst they ignore it and the patient is fine anyway. Why not have that backup parachute so to speak.

>>921025
this looks pretty close to mine, I like to keep my trauma kit/IFAK stuff separate from the boo-boo kit as well.

anyone else carry benzoin tincture swabs? great for helping bandages and tape stick to wet/sweaty skin, I use it for blister bandages as my feet sweat a lot.

https://www.amazon.ca/Compound-Benzoin-Tincture-U-S-P-Swabsticks/dp/B002GXAZO0

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>>913520
>>917446
>palmer furnace

great technique, we used to do it in the infantry with ponchos and hexy tablets for the canteen stove while in a foxhole

>>921657
>anyone else carry benzoin tincture swabs

benzoine anything is a must have

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>>909772
>RAT-T

>>920948
The tea goes in the Emergency Tea Kit.
We are not barbarians.

>>921901
>Emergency Tea Kit
>mfw I actually have one of those
>mfw I'm an American

>>921901
>>922073
BEADY
E
A
D
Y

USNERDOCs videos are good

https://youtu.be/P60_sELRkqw?list=PLxLhQGFn7AxVhd7Pb1i195ztcxnSffx07

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>>909772
>2017
>using alcohol that inflames wounds and damages subdermal tissue rather than benzoin, which causes no damage and kills a wider range of infective agents and can even be used to apply and sterilize a bandage in wet conditions.

ISHYGDDT

>>920741
>>Imodium, stops you shitting yourself to death

Imodium might be fine when you're out and don't want to get yelled at by your superior for stopping on an exercise because you have the shits.

IRL your body gets rid of dodgy bacteria in the intestinal tract ASAP for a reason. Let it flow when it has to and replace any fluids and lost salts, and maybe some boiled sweets for energy, and keep your hands clean until you can eat properly.

>>922320
if you shit because of a viral infection tho there is no reason to let all the fluids go. viruses are not in the intestinal tract they are all over in your body and will be defeated by your body irrelevant if you keep your shit in check or let it run wild.

>>921737

There is nothing wrong with with cat t. Only retards with no experience complain about it.

>>922211
>benzoin

You fucking hippie.

>kills a wider range of infective agents

That's absolute bullshit. Studies are still trying to figure out if the shit can be considered an antiseptic at all. The alcohol part of the tincture of benzoin everyone refers to as "benzoin" is the only known antiseptic.

>sterilize a bandage in wet conditions

Just STFU.

It's useful for a couple things, but not what your magical mind believes.