Surviving for real

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That's quite obvious.
No tribe that lives in the world survives without meat. Just face it.

Does fishing count as hunting? tribes didn't survive on hunting to the same extent as fishing

>>756034
>That's quite obvious.
For me it wasn't.
I actually believed that you can survive on berries and insects like in all the TV shows and books until I tried a fruit diet at home and almost fucking starved although I ate a decent amount of fruit.
Now I know that all this stuff is short-term survival only. I feel my muscle loss and foolishly enough, I even worked out in this malnourished state.


>>756038
>Does fishing count as hunting? tribes didn't survive on hunting to the same extent as fishing
I believe that the coasts of seas and rivers are the natural habitat of the human. That's why mountain and desert people who see no water are so dense btw.

Also I'd consider fishing as a form of hunting because you kill and eat another animal.

>>756030
I agree.

I was in the trophy hunting thread saying that trophy hunting is wrong and inhumane, but i agree that we need to kill to survive. Its the very nature of our balanced universe which has been carefully orchestrated since the big bang. We can kill without pride or emotion though, its just nature.

Materialism isn't nature, trophy hunting is just killing to show off and seek approval from your peers because you're living up to the modern image of masculinity, because a "real man" amasses a wealth of useless shit and proves how much of a success he is beforehe ultimately dies and returns to the void. People have lost touch with nature.

>>756030
Stone age peoples ate everything they could get their hands on, including carrion

Thus the human has a garbage mouth, much like a dog, bear, or pig

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>>756055
I haven't read the trophy hunting thread but I agree with what you said.

Consider this though: Our modern civilization and efficient agriculture makes meat-free living possible. That was the reason why I tried the vegan diet in the first place. But the utopia is still too far from reality even though I live in a first world country.


> Its the very nature of our balanced universe
Kinda cruel, isn't it?
My worldview has changed with this experience.
When I look at the forest outside my window, I no longer see the cozy nature and sunny weather - all I see now is the harsh ecosystem of planet Earth. Funny how some people consider this as a wonderful gift of mother nature.
Sure, mother nature provides all the stuff, but slip just once /out/side of civilization and you're fucking dead.

>>756065
Don't bother

>>756061
>Thus the human has a garbage mouth, much like a dog, bear, or pig
Many Vegans who propagate their lifestyle say how human digestion is not fit for meat-consumption and show all the health problems related to meat-consumption.

The real truth is that civilization man doesn't need to eat that much meat.
People can survive a few days without meat, especially when they don't have a high energy requirement.

>>756065
It's only cruel depending on your perception of both yourself and the universe.

I listen to alot of Alan Watts and study buddhism; it's changed my views hugely. I don't see myself as an independent organism; the process of life began with the big bang and it has lead to this present moment; everything can be traced right back to one pin point; back to one source. Everything is interconnected from that most basic point and the process hasn't ended yet.

People see the big bang as something that happened; but I see it as something that is happening still. It wasn't the beginning of the process, it is the process.

So how does this relate to hunting? Zoom in enough and you'll find a state of conflict in our cells; bacteria and enzymes consuming each other to fuel our bodies; you zoom out and it's us.

You zoom in on a table and its atoms, there is space between the atoms but all we see is a table; we see one object.

We define ourselves as one object but zoomed out all you would see is one living planet; we think we're important but we're not; we are part of an everflowing process of life, we are part of a balanced eco system designed to flow this way. We don't exist as we think; we aren't special are just self aware animals with delusions of grandeur; our souls don't exist they can't be located.

Our identity is just down to chemicals in our brain; chemicals that can be altered by drugs and surgery to drasitcally change our characteristics. We aren't divine like we think; we just are tiny cogs in an entire cosmic framework.

But more suitable to this thread; we are designed to be cogs in this clockwork that is the web of life on this planet. I wouldn't have a problem being eaten by a larger animal because it's nature; theres nothing cruel or malicious behind it, it's just our destiny to end. We look at ourselves as something special but we are no more divine than chickens and fruit; we are just massively deluded into thinking we're something better.

>>756074
samefag here my post was too long.

I don't agree with the current meat industry though. We have an excess, animals die for no reason. When I first left school I worked in a supermarket and man we wasted loads of meat, sometimes whole chickens would be binned.

I believe if you kill an animal all of it should be used; only kill what you need. Respect life.

>>756074
>It's only cruel depending on your perception of both yourself and the universe.
You are right. Actually I was judging from a viewpoint other than mine.

I hold similar worldviews like you - still a bit different but I wouldn't want to elaborate here.


What I do see differently though is this:
>We look at ourselves as something special but we are no more divine than chickens and fruit; we are just massively deluded into thinking we're something better.
Mankind is objectively the dominant species on this planet. Although human lacks physical toughness, it became number one by creating his own nature - civilization.
This is really remarkable and slightly differs from all the other animals.
One might even suspect that human is maladpated to this ecosystem. And indeed there are tinfoil theories that mankinds's origins are of an extraterrestrial source. The ancient aliums meme should be known.

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>>756053
I thought that was quite obvious.


>>756065
You've got it wrong both times.
Nature isn't some beautiful mother that will give everything to you without doing any work, and hunter gatherers just sit around all day eating flowers and dancing in circles (like hippies do).
Another viewpoint of modern people is that nature is harsh, brutal, "evil" even, and that humans are so much better than nature.
What nature truly is, is both. Nature is both harsh and unforgiving and loving and cozy.
People who lived with nature knew that nature would be good to them, as long as they worked hard and respected it. They wouldn't cut down too many trees, and if they did then they would ask for it's permission and give something back to the forest (an offering of food, for example).

They knew to store food up for winter, and knew when to sew crops and when to harvest them.


Nature is a good thing if you know about it, are prepared and know how to respect and live in nature. But Nature is bad if you are stupid, unprepared, and think you can rush through everything and overpower nature.
Those are my thoughts on the matter. Don't see nature as harsh, OP, see it as a gift and and a bad thing at the same time.
I recommend you watch this video for more information:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RPwsRAKW4k

>>756097
I don't judge the harshness of nature. I got too much scientific education for that. All I see in the end is the "conservation of energy" law.

>Nature is both harsh and unforgiving and loving and cozy.
I don't see the loving and cozy desu.
When I lay down on the fluffy forest floor to rest, some fucking tick will eventually bite and later kill me. It's a rather comical experience.

I know the good side is there though. I couldn't enjoy fruits without it.

>>756093
In referencing the cruely thing.

You don't get mad at the wind for blowing; you don't get angry at the river for flooring; you don't get angry at the sun for setting.

It's the way things are built to be; the same applies for nature. It's designed to be a foodchain; maybe you're lucky and you die naturally or maybe you're unlucky and a pack of wolves eat you.

Ultimately it's the way things are meant to be; so it's no less cruel to kill and eat than it is to breathe. To torture and kill for material gain would be cruel though; just killing for sport or entertainment.

The same applies for people. Our very basic instinct is to desire happiness and comfort; and we will do whatever it takes to get that. Unfortunately advertising and tv has taught that the way to be happy is to be out for "number 1" and be purely selfish; fuck everyone else they don't matter as long as I'm getting ahead in the rat race.

That bully? That guy at work who is lazy and putting all his work onto you so he has an easy ride? That woman who cheated on you to sleep with someone with more money and success? It's what they've been taught by society is right. You can't hate them for it; I'm not saying they're innocent and exempt from blame but I'm saying they're like children; they're small minded and chasing happiness rather than seeing the big picture so just forgive them like you'd forgive an immature child who still has much to learn. Some people are so brainwashed that they'll get aggressive if you mention the concept of love over hate, caring over selfishness, trying to be better than what we currently are. They'll just say "it's human nature"; but I believe in nurture over nature; if we're able to manipulate people into full believing in a god or a religion so blindly that they'll blow themselves up; we're able to educate them from birth to live kindly as buddhist monks. It's within our capacity to actually live better if we had the infrastructure set up.

>>756118
>You don't get mad at the wind for blowing; you don't get angry at the river for flooring; you don't get angry at the sun for setting.
Nice.
Sometimes I get mad at the moon though. Seing that smug bastard in the night sky - that fool trying to be the light of the night.

> It's within our capacity to actually live better if we had the infrastructure set up.
Things will fix itself. Either mankind "gets it" or it dies. Just like survival in nature.

>>756073
All health problems that have actually been proven is limited to processed red meat. Fresh meat is just water, protein and fat

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>>756065
*cough*

You're right about humans needing meat, at least historically. Meat (especially cooked meat) is one of the most energy-dense meals we can consume, which is awesome for a hunter-gatherer who is liable to be malnourished on the flip of a dime. But today, with 9 billion humans on this planet and sophisticated agriculture, surviving off meat is very doable. There's so many of us that we can't all go out and hunt our own meat, because there would be nothing to hunt very soon, which would lead to a multitude of other problems. Consuming primarily grains is probably the most sustainable way to eat today

>>756118
I am loving the discussion ITT. have any of you ever been to a tropical rainforest? That is fucking cruel nature at its worst (I mean that in a good way). I spent a month in the Amazon last winter and that really put the cruelty of mother nature in perspective for me. Being in the Amazon is an experience I really can't describe to anyone who hasn't been there. It's uncomfortable as hell, you're hot, sweaty, sticky, itchy, and various insects are always swarming you. But the fucking jungle man, there is nothing else like it anywhere in the world. It blows my mind that humans have been living there for thousands of years without any modern conveniences or technologies, which seemed impossible to me. And they don't struggle to survive, they live very well, well fed, comfortable, fairly safe, considering all the venomous things that live around them

We evolved past being Hunter gatherers. As a hunter gatherer it's hard to get food all year round. You eat anything you can find because it's tough.

If you upgrade to the superior farming (plus hunting and gathering if you like) then things are a lot easier.

Also raw veganism is dumb. It is a massive advantage to add beans, lentils, root vegetables etc and you must cook them. You need a good energy source. Fruit is not good all year round and doesn't store.

I'm a vegan because it's easy to get everything I need from the shops. But if society collapses it would be hard to get proper nutrition by myself farming. I would have to eat animals, not frequently and not muscle meat. I would eat animal brains because they are high in omega three, something that is hard to get unless you can grow and process lots of flax seeds and walnuts.

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>>756205
That's brutal.

>>756502
>I would eat animal brains
watch your prion diseases anon. that shit is not the protein with whom to fuck

>>756139
>Sometimes I get mad at the moon though. Seing that smug bastard in the night sky - that fool trying to be the light of the night.

kek

>>756540
His DNA gunna get unwound.

>>756543
yup and he'll end up like this

https://youtu.be/K11Zm8nenRg

>>756030

Plant food that is foraged is MUCH MORE dense nutrients than the stuff you get at a grocery store.

The reason for this is the domestication of the plants. Man has be selectively breeding and cultivating plants for thousands of years and in the process of breeding and apple for traits like size and sugar content we have inadvertently reduced its nutrients content. This goes with all produce at the market.

>plants in the wild are much richer in nutrients than shit in the grocery store.

>>756569
>plants in the wild are much richer in nutrients than shit in the grocery store.
source?
or did you just pull that out of your ass?

>>756601
I'm a horiculturalist. If you selectively breed dogs you loose traits. What breeders look for is phenotypes (physical traits like size and ability) what is NOT selected for is genotype (genetic traits like immunity or disorders) the same thing applies to plants.

When breeding apples growers look for color and shape, not traits like vitamin and mineral content. This combined with thousands of years of cultivation coupled with low quality synthetic soil amendments found in industrial agriculture leaves you with a plant that has a far differant (and often far lower) nutrient profile than that of wild plants in a more natural state.

>>756630
You're an idiot.

>>756030
Just eat larvae, ants, termites. You don't have to hunt big game to get protein and cheap calories.

>>756630
>I'm a horiculturalist [sic]
is not a source
http://nature.berkeley.edu/miltonlab/pdfs/kmilton_micronutrient.pdf
is a source

>>756657

I'm happy to know that with retardation like yours something horrible will happen to you out in the wilderness, it'll be something simple that could have been avoided had you not been so retarded and learned from others.

>>756684
My background is a source. Why wouldn't it be?

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>>756030
Yes, proper diet out alone in the wilderness is something that is greatly downplayed in every aspect of media on the subject. You only get the extreme examples like the movie Alive.

It can be done, but you have to do it through agriculture. And, that is a long term plan which you should start doing ASAP in addition to your hunting in some long term survival plan.

Trying to survive without meat and without agriculture is a harsh lessen and slow many month death.

Check out this image. Some of it is incorrect (rabbit brain starvation thing), but the majority of it is spot on.

>>756630
The funny thing is the story of Red Delicious apples. They were cultuvated as you say. However, the curious side effect of making the skins redder, tougher, and everything resulted in them increasing their micro-nutrients and anti-oxidents. Unfortunately, people don't like eating them for that exact reason (and because most are picked way too early due to the bright red skins.) Now, the varieties of apples that are replacing them as the world's favorite are also undergoing the same exact change with the same results. Soon enough those Fuji and Honeycrisp apples will look more and more like Red Delicious apples until you can't tell them apart. I actually love Red Delicious.

Everything else however, is losing nutrients and gaining water and sugar instead. That's why old heirloom varieties and wild crops are packed greatly with nutrients while the modern stuff in stores is almost completely bereft of those nutrients. However, people don't like eating that stuff because it is less watery and less sugary. They don't like the strong flavors so they settle with ice burg lettuce smothered in dressing.

Which reminds me, I have chickweed and lambs quarter to harvest for dinner...

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>>757242
>Which reminds me, I have chickweed and lambs quarter to harvest for dinner...

>>757242
>>757258

Thankyou friend. I'll switch up my apple selection to red delicious next time I go shopping, I'll miss my pink lady but I eat for health alone so fuck it.

And another thanks for the info on chickweed and lambs quarter. I forage miners lettuce, milk thistle, wood sorrel, and a plethora of other "weeds" in my area but was unaware of those two. I'm super psyched find some, I've certainly seen them around.

>>756657
Why even eat fruit at all? I can tell McDonald's is more your speed.

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>>757266
Chickweed (Stellaria media) is best in the spring and best when young and short. You can cook it like a green or eat it as a salad. Don't eat "too much" because it has saponins in it. It is delicious though. If you cook it as a pot herb you'll notice suds from the saponins. It is very prolific and in the garden you can use it as a thick living mulch under your other plants. Save the seed by harvesting a bunch of the chickweed and shaking it out in a bag; any time of the year.

Lambs Quarter (Chenopodium) is pretty much the forerunner of spinach before spinach took over the world. Lambs Quarter was cultivated and eaten extremely widely. It is best eaten when under 12" tall because the stems will start to get woody. Late season Lambs Quarter tends to be woody too, probably triggered by less sunlight during the day or the cooler temperatures. Collect the seed and plant it. It is very prolific and delicious as a collard, spinach, pot herb. Greenhouse version have purple tops (Magenta Spreen). Lambs Quarter does well as a canned green too. Harvest its seeds at the end of the fall from the mature plants.

Both do very well in gardens, indoor gardens, and as sprouts.

I explain this to my vegan girlfriend all the time: I pick my food based on calorie per bite and nothing else.

>>756055
Raw foodists go way too far, but the idea that we need to kill in order to live naturally or some shit is ridiculous. It's a good thing that people have lost touch with nature as you refer to it, because raping any woman and murdering weaker males is pretty natural behavior for humans. Appealing to nature as some source of morality is a fallacy.
Besides, caring about nature should incentivize eating less animal products because way more environmental damage is associated with their production than plant foods.

>>757341
I assume you eat nothing besides oil and fat then? You are dumb.

>>756076
Oh man you are so close!

>respect life
Just life? Isnt what is called life just an orientation of particles in a timeframe, why stop at life? When i the individual die my particles diffuse and synthesize into new """"""individuals,"""""" not only biological complex adaptive systems, but simple systems that most dont define as living. I the universe superorganism experiences i the individual as i the individual experiences i the collection of molecules, as atoms and subatomic etc.

This firm reality of synthesis is ultimately tempered with a tendancy to condense information [experience], which implies something like humans in the """""""""2000s"""""""""" would call compassion. While you are being a human in that particular spacetime, and are in such a position that you can excercise a degree of freedom on your envioronment such as it is, why wouldnt you be 100% mindful

Its a fine line between nihalism and what i suspect is the way of things, and though i agree with almost everything you said, i must insist that we are important, just as all that other shit is, its all 100% important. your current existance/orientation is only marginally thanks to your current individual consciousness, but that doesnt make it less important

>>757545
How is it that your post fairly reeks of intelligence, but you seemingly struggle with things like spelling / punctuation / capitalization / balanced quotations? Speaking of, excessive quotation marks do nothing to further your side of the conversation -- in fact, they detract from your statements to no small extent. Perhaps you should refrain from overusing them in the future.

>>757547
it's a meme you dip

>>757560
Lame meme is laaaame.

>>757545
Hey man it's the Anon you replied to earlier on in the thread. You're switched on and your post actually made complete sense to me where as at one time i wouldn't of understood it. Keep spreading the good word Brother. Its all interconnected.

>>757478
Those are some big delusions you have there. In nature, primates of the same species normally never kill each other. Furthermore, it is the female primates that dictate who they mate with. Hell, some of them even steal other primate babies and even puppies to care for in order to look better in front of females they try to impress. Raping and killing other humans is something that started after humans became, "smart."

>>757224
Sources are peer reviewed and published
Your opinion is bro-science

>>757599
You are the deluded one here mate. There are plenty of primates that wound and kill others for status or territory. Some kill the children of another male to ensure their female takes care of their children only. Many animals (I don't know about primates specifically) mate against the females will. There is nothing about these behaviours that requires human sentience.

>>757224
Your background makes you an authority at best (except you show no proof whatsoever, so really not even that).
Either way, your whole point is off: Modern fruits may or may be less dense in vitamins and minerals, but are more dense in calories (sugar), which is the usually most lacking part of nutrition.

>>757639
*or may not, dammit.

>>757486
Dumb? Can you run a marathon babycakes? And I mean run it. My diet is superior.

>>757793
>Can you run a marathon
So like 10 mph? Is this speed for street only or can you do it on a trail?

>>757836
Trails are the best place to do it puppy pal

>>757611
That's retarded. Is that seriously how you evaluate life?

Trail guild tells you "don't touch this plant it's poisonous" and you ask him for some fucking peer reviews

You sound like an idiot who can't think for himself.

>>757865
He's caught in the internet argument level of though pattern. That means he is both defensive and offensive while nit picking and being pedantic.

>>756205
that was fun to read

>>757865
“The nutrient profiles of domesticated plants are less sufficient for human health than those of wild plants”
is not the same as
“This plant is poisonous”

You sound like someone who is confused, angry, and afraid

>>757976
>not knowing what similes and analogies are

>>757865
>>757871
>>757976
>>758001
Stop discussing the authority of this guy. His entire argument was bullshit because domesticated plants have in fact higher caloric density, and he said so himself. Micronutrients literally don't matter in comparison.

>>756055
>Materialism isn't nature

I agree with you that trophy hunting is stupid in this day and age, but I would also argue that it's part of the male 'peacocking' instinct, which is very much a part of nature (ie. showing off to get pussy, ie. natural selection)

>>756065
>Our modern civilization and efficient agriculture makes meat-free living possible.

There's a lot of modern stuff we could potentially do without, but who would want to? You could potentially live on a diet of vitamin pills and protein powder, but why would you want to?

Or onaholes instead of pussy, VR instead of going outside, and tanning beds instead of getting sunshine.

Fuck that though.

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>>756074
>I wouldn't have a problem being eaten by a larger animal because it's nature; theres nothing cruel or malicious behind it, it's just our destiny to end.

>>756097
>Nature is both harsh and unforgiving and loving and cozy.

It's neither, you fag. Nature can't express human emotions; it's what's known in literature as the "pathetic fallacy".

Nature simply exists. Stop projecting your emotions and perceptions onto it.

>>758408
So... nature is indifferent?

>>758409

Nature cannot show concern, so the lack of it is just as non-applicable as any other emotion.

All these buddhist theories and crap about the 'harshness' of nature is just man's way of trying to make sense of the world. If that helps you cope with what's out there, then fine.

But in a real world practical sense, it's philosophy and about as applicable to nature as a broadway musical is to particle physics.

>>758412
Thanks for the (you). Honestly, I was just attempting to rustle your feathers by attributing yet another emotion to nature right after you so succinctly started that nature has no emotions, and simply 'is.' Kudos on not falling for it.

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Hey /out/, I actually have experience living in the bush for 1 month with a friend surviving only off what we found. This was in Tasmania*.

Surviving in the wilderness is really fucking hard. You need a good area to sustain yourself. No wonder tribes fought each other all the time.

Hunting fucking sucks. Trapping rules. The best all time number one way to support yourself is fishing, shellfish are number 2 but don't give you much energy. If I was going to colonize a remote tropical island and I could only bring one plant/animal with me it would be potatoes or some kind of tuber.

If you eat nothing but fish for a week you stop eating so much. We lost weight not because a lack of food but reduced desire to eat. We killed two wallabies and loved the different taste, ate so much. Only ate the liver, heart and kidneys but aboriginals ate the fatty brains and everything else too. We trapped several rabbits, very easy to trap, no fat, not much energy but still worthwhile.

We ate berries, petals from the mountain. The best berry in Tasmania is the native cherry. Berries are not available most the year though. It was well worth the walk, tasted delicious. Hunter gathers did things that cost more energy than they gained for good reasons, nutrition can be felt.

Fish and meat sustains you, would murder for potatoes.

*No Christopher McCandless, we were 30 minutes from a small town, could see a house a few km away at the end of the bay where an older couple lived who brought us coffee in a thermos several times, we slept in tents.

>>758456
I didn't know we were allowed to hunt walaby. Is it like kangaroo?

>>758458
Pretty much the same and kangaroo, a bit gamier maybe but it depends on their diet and age.

You need a licence which you can get for a token fee.

>>758456

Sounds awesome, anon. What time of year was it? Did you have any supplies at all that you brought in / got from the local town, or was it 100% foraged?

Any tips on places to get guides of Aussie edible plants?

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>>758402
>>756055
>Materialism isn't nature

>>758479

Uhh.. that's exactly what I was saying, nignog

>>758481
>everyone is against me

grow up

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>>758484

Do you really not understand, or is this a really lame troll?

I'm this guy >>758402

I'm agreeing with your post... get it?

>>758479
That's art made by male bowerbirds to attract females

>>758572
Pretty much all human materialism is kinda rooted in the same thing dude.

>>757581
And somehow these people weren't forced with animal abuse.

>>759193
*charged

>>756569
t. Varg Vikernes

>>756065
But consider this: Because of our modern standards the need for hunting animals is even bigger. We made a lot of mistakes in the past with trophy hunting but nowadays hunting as such (talking about europe here) is actually of critical importance, sadly people don't understand this. All the roads, all the cities and urban locations that are expanding are, on the other hand, shrinking the wild habitat. Thats where hunters come in with helping to maintain in a natural number. The main point here is that nowadays hunting isn't a sport or a source of food but a way to keep the nature stabilized after us, humans, fucked it up trough the years.

>>759483
Nature doesn't need humans to stabilize it at all in any way. Humans need humans to skew nature to their benefit and keep it there. That is all the hunters are doing.

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>>756073
>millions of years of evolution
>making fires
>cooking meat
>our jaws getting smaller and loosing molars
>"People don't need to eat meat"
>ignoring basic human nutrition
>ignoring evolution
>ignoring human wants and needs

>>756055
/Thread

>>756030
Plant based diet and nutrition fag here.

The problem isn't the vegan part(although it can be if you don't do your research properly), it is the raw part.

Nuts and seed are some of the most energy dense foods out there, but eating them raw is usually either near impossible or just a waste. Cooking not only softens up hard seeds like grains and legumes, it in general increases the bio availability of nutrients no matter what you cook. Some roots and tubers are also fairly high in calories.

There is evidence of controlled fire use by homonids before us homo sapiens were even around, even going so far back as 1.7 million years: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Control_of_fire_by_early_humans

Fire has shaped our evolution for a very long time.

Meat is an extra source of nutrients, but it is by no means an essential requirement for getting enough energy.

If you want to survive without farming in the wild then just remember that human civilization and population size only started growing exponentially once we discovered grain based agriculture(and to lesser extent tubers/roots).

So it only goes that a hunter gatherer lifestyle would naturally require more effort and time to meet the same degree of calorie production, and going raw would restrict you from access to the majority of energy rich plant based sources, assuming you are in an area where you can forage those as it can vary. I'm assuming you don't eat meat raw, so why eat veggies raw?

It is easy to get enough energy on a plant based diet(I do and have even gained weight on it), but if you stick to fad diets like raw foodism or fruitarianism you have no clue what you are doing, nutritionally speaking.

Eat your nuts, seeds, grains, leafy greens, roots, tubers, fruits and more and cook what needs to be cooked. Variety is very important.

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>>757581
Reading shit like makes me happy that I almost never associate with vegans. The sword is double edged though, having not eaten meat myself in over three years. Why do so many people need to force their will upon others?

>>757224
>never wrote a scholarly report for work or school.

>>760808
Join the club. I eat 99.5% plant based, but I don't associate with vegans. Ironically I only eat meat in front of people to avoid being labelled a vegan, simply a matter where the bad social stigma outweighs the bad health impact. That only happens once every few months so it isn't really a problem.

>Why do so many people need to force their will upon others?
Veganism at its core is an ethical ideology and started out as such. It has nothing to do with nutrition science. As such, their rhetoric is based on feelings of morality and not on scientific fact. It goes without saying that people only hold ethical stances they believe to be morally right, hence why the feel justified in being obnoxious about it.

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>>760842
I wish I had taken a stance similar to yours, but I have become extremely accosted to a meatless diet. I would feel strange, and hypocritical eating meat just to pacify my friends and family.

About three times a year I find myself at a large gathering where everyone is eating hotdogs, or something of equally low quality, and everyone either needs to know why I'm not having one. I also run into the counter case where people become overly concerned with providing a meatless option and expect me to kiss there feet for making a burger with no patty.

Sorry for the tangent I rarely come into contact with similarly minded eaters. Out of curiosity what is your stance on the meat eating ethics? Do you choose a plant based diet purely for the health benefits?

>>760808
"That shit" happens where ever humans occur. Every single thing humans touch for good or bad has some terrible shitty set of stories behind it, enough to put you off "those people" and a whole group.

>>760842
Nothing at all in the human world is based on scientific fact....that even includes science itself unfortunately. It is a great thing to say, but inevitably everything is based in superstition and muh feelings.

>>756205
Early Khorne worshiper.

>>760872
>I wish I had taken a stance similar to yours,
I used to be like that, but after a few years the constant social drag and tediousness of dealing with people's prejudices won out. I always can't help liken people's dietary habits to religion, and that you are basically in bible(carnism) country everywhere you go.

>but I have become extremely accosted to a meatless diet. I would feel strange, and hypocritical eating meat just to pacify my friends and family.
It should only be hypocritical if you keep preaching to people how they should eat. I used to call myself vegan in the early days, but that was before I knew better and realized that veganism isn't based on rational thought. Most of my family knows by now I'm a funny eater, so the have backed down, I usually just eat meat around new people I meet where I can't make a decent excuse.

>About three times a year I find myself at a large gathering where everyone is eating hotdogs, or something of equally low quality, and everyone either needs to know why I'm not having one. I also run into the counter case where people become overly concerned with providing a meatless option and expect me to kiss there feet for making a burger with no patty.
Yeah, one of my pet peeves is people that think I'm vegan and therefore I'll eat anything with no meat in.

>>760872
>Sorry for the tangent I rarely come into contact with similarly minded eaters. Out of curiosity what is your stance on the meat eating ethics? Do you choose a plant based diet purely for the health benefits?
I started out trying to prove to an annoying vegan that meat is essential for health. After coming of short of any kind of solid evidence to support that stance, I had to reevaluate my whole perception on what constitutes a healthy diet.

Sadly for a while I fell into the vegan crowd for not knowing any better. After all, if you don't need to eat meat, and if it is true as I'm learning more every day that a plant based diet is not only possible, but cheaper and healthier, then shouldn't it follow that killing animals for food in our modern society where you can get everything you need from plants by simply visiting the nearest store is no different than killing for your own selfish pleasure?

But it has been a long time since I associated with them, as I eventually learned they aren't in it to learn how nutrition works, but more just to feel like they are important by being morally superior to others.

I still think than line of logic holds up(any useful nutrition in meat you can get for cheaper elsewhere, so all that is left for motivation to eat meat is selfish pleasure), but only people who are willing to get their brains dirty learning all the details of our relationship with food and nutrition will be able to agree from a stance of knowledge, instead of having to trust someone else's opinion. So basically it will only fall on deaf ears.

The very notion that people have been engaging in needless slaughter also seems to upset them so much that they subconsciously freak the fuck out and take a very aggressive stance towards you. They have thousands of allies and you are alone, after all.

But, since then, I have become a moral nihilist. My current stance is that eating meat is stupid and that the question of its morality is subjective.

>>760939
>Nothing at all in the human world is based on scientific fact....that even includes science itself unfortunately. It is a great thing to say, but inevitably everything is based in superstition and muh feelings.
I don't think you quite understand what a scientific fact is or what can and can't be based on them. I can recommend a good book that might clear up some possible confusion or misunderstand you might have: http://www.amazon.com/Demon-Haunted-World-Science-Candle-Dark/dp/0345409469

>>761328
>Yeah, one of my pet peeves is people that think I'm vegan and therefore I'll eat anything with no meat in.

So basically you expect that when you go out, not only will people cater to your no meat diet, but then they'll specifically prepare the exact dishes that you like, and be grateful for it?

You may not be vegan but you sound just as fucking annoying

>>761356
>So basically you expect that when you go out, not only will people cater to your no meat diet, but then they'll specifically prepare the exact dishes that you like, and be grateful for it?
>You may not be vegan but you sound just as fucking annoying
Where the fuck do you get the idea that I expect anything from people?

>>761370

You expect that people will have intimate knowledge and care about your own picky dietary choices

>I hate when they think I'll eat x

Aww I feel sorry for your first world problems

>>761334
Scientific facts are just prevalent thesis, which is a sort of belief.

>>761373
Once again you are making assumptions about what I expect of people.

I feel sorry for your intellectual problems.

>>761332
that wall of text to explain us your feeling. You sound like a punchable cunt.

>>761380

It's not an assumption it's a connotation, cumguzzler.

Wow, you vegans really are retarded. Maybe they are right when they say that brain function requires complex proteins that can only be found in meat.

Still doesn't explain why you're all such entitled, pushy cunts though.

>>761381

That's the dictionary definition of a vegan. They're all such special snowflakes, ya know?

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>>761379
>Scientific facts are just prevalent thesis, which is a sort of belief.
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fact#Fact_in_science
>In the most basic sense, a scientific fact is an objective and verifiable observation, in contrast with a hypothesis or theory, which is intended to explain or interpret facts.

>>761381
>You sound like a punchable cunt.
From my post you quoted:
>The very notion that people have been engaging in needless slaughter also seems to upset them so much that they subconsciously freak the fuck out and take a very aggressive stance towards you.

>>761385
And I'm saying what you are connoting is an assumption.

>>761387
plz dont be mean the anmils are crying sempai
Anyway, since this discussion has devolved to the level of ad hominems and and semantic pedantry I'm out.

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>>761332
>moral nihilist
Go get a real philosophical ideology.

>>761405
What makes a philosophical ideology a "real" one?

>>759524
You have no idea what you are saying. We destabilised the nature and now have to keep it stabilized unnaturally. Any expert can tell you that.

>>756065
Now what is interesting with this post and 99% of all people is that we view nature and "the wild" as something separate from ourselves. while we are infact a product, and indeed part of the natural world. This seems obvious yes, but really think about it. We have removed ourselves from the natural way of beeing and continue to do so with great effort and force. we think we must continue to controll our lives and paths in every way. Because if not, we will commit the ultimate taboo. we will become a bum. A savage. naked and alone in the dirt with nothing to hold on to. we will fall into the black abyss of the gritty cold claws of nature.
That, or into the warm grace of what the "savages" call "mother" or "god" and live without a single worry in the world.

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>>758408
That's what I'm saying, retard.
I'm just humanising it; if you know how to use it properly, nature can be a "gift" but it can also be bad.

it's indifferent. There can be a very good summer with lots of food and a hard winter. if you know how to use nature, you'll store the food for the winter, if you don't, then you'll be a glutton and eat it in summer and starve in winter
you missed the entire fucking point

>>761405

>Her forehead is a butt

>>763775

No, you literally said that nature is both harsh and kind. Now you're saying it's indifferent.

It's none of that. You're either confused, or 14. Possibly both.

Smoke a bong, retard. If you can't be intelligent at least you can enjoy yourself.