Why is cheap performance bad?

it's not

>>17578052
It's a different market. It's expected of Beemers etc to be comfy as fuck and cruise the 'Bahn as well as be fast as shit around a course. Then there are people like you and me who grew up in used Fords and chevies etc and dont mind a plastic dash if it means going fast with a lower monthly payment. I can appreciate both for what they do.

>>17578052
elitism from people who still ride their fixed gear with training wheels

>>17578052
Because if you put 'premium' engines in base spec cars
The engine stops being 'premium'

> All I want is a +3l coupe without any extra bullshit

>>17578052
> neither does Japan
I guess we're gonna just pretend like the brz, civic type r, and wrz don't exist...

Because it's only cheap thanks to active politics to keep fuel affordable. If Europe made fuel as cheap as the US the road systems would collapse and they wouldn't have money to maintain roads anymore (like the US). If the US made fuel as expensive as Europe they wouldn't have "cheap" performance anymore (and finally have money to fix their god awful roads and a reason to fix their god awful urban planning).

>>17578126
>frz86
>performance
>civic
>fwd
>wrx
>cheap

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>>17578126
It's hard to argue the CTR since it's so fast around a racetrack, though in regular daily driving, a FWD 2.0L turbo won't be as fun or fast as RWD muh vee-ayte. WRX/Miata/BRZ is a different type of fun and don't hold a candle to modern American muscle when it comes to performance (grip and power). 370Z is pretty close to what I'm talking about, but Nissan is overpricing it and refuses to update/replace it.

>>17578052
Let me explain it for you OP.

The divide between econoboxes and luxury cars is partially descended from the greater trend of income inequality across the world. Now before you call me a communist, let me explain what I mean.

Most of the population can't actually afford to buy a new car, nor do they see a reason to. Why drop 20k on a new shitbox with equal or lesser reliability and performance as a ten or so year old version that costs a quarter as much? Most of the poorer population can't justify the investment, and this includes people concerned about performance. Why would somebody who wants a fast Camaro buy a new one for 30k when they could invest 10k in a fourth gen and basically restore it to being brand new with substantially more horsepower with much much cheaper and widespread parts availability and simplicity? It's just not economical to most consumers to make that investment.

But then on the other spectrum you have people with plenty of money, whether they be middle class families with two working parents who want le safe crossovers(hence why they've become a plague recently since this demographic makes up the primary people buying cars anymore) or balding affluent middle age men who will pay 20k extra for fauncie imported brazilian balsawood on their dash(hence the fusion of luxury and performance for this demographic).

So from the perspective of car manufacturers, in order to not be driver into bankruptcy they have to cater to this substantially limited demographic of people who can actually afford new cars. So it results in A.) Cheap automotive cancer like the Chevy Sonic or Nissan Versa trying to appeal to the lower class and generally failing because the cars are absolute shit B.) Safe family friendly crossovers for soccermoms raising their suburban families C.) Toys for affluent men with mid-life crises.

There is nothing wrong with cheap American performance. But american performance is not cheap outside of America, and most of the world is not America.

Making a 400hp engine that passes all the regulations and lasts for the warranty period is kind of expensive

Offset the costs with a cheap interior? Nobody buys it. Maybe two people per town.

So buy a motorcycle. Making a bearing-munching 100hp 600cc with solid lifters is pretty damn cheap.

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>>17578150
>>wrx
>>cheap
>OP literally mentioned the Corvette

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>tfw have owned MB SL600, 335i, and still own an e24 635CSi and this

the interior in the camero is better than an e90
and its nearly as fast as the sl600 in a straight line + handles better than literally almost anything

elitism is cancer

>>17578605
what about muh german engineering

>>17578704
If the Germans made the Camaro SS it would have a DOHC 4.0L that weighs the same, has the same physical dimensions, makes marginally more peak power, achieving 1 more MPG, but with less torque, less area-under-curve, require premium fuel to run, is less reliable, and only lasts 1 lease period before detonating catastrophically. Hard plastic would be removed from the top of the dash, and placed inside the water pump instead. It would have DCT with 9 speeds (to stay inside that tiny power band) which weighs more and is less reliable, and the weight gain would be offset with expensive carbon fiber. Also the exhaust tips would be fake, the steering would be numb, and it would cost 15k more.

It handles the same, except it handles better, because it's German engineered and not some Amerifat piece of shit.

>>17578760
the lt1 runs on 91 octane minimum
>>17578704
the 335i and sl600 were both really nice especially after i modded the 335.

>>17578783
But basically every LS (gen 3 and 4) could run on just about any unleaded fuel you wanted to feed them

>>17578841
lt1 has 11.5:1 compression

>Hard plastic would be removed from the top of the dash, and placed inside the water pump instead.

I think my sides just died.

>>17578605
Make a review thread of your car please. You're one of the few people on here who
>can afford a new car that isn't a Fiesta ST
>isn't a massive sperg who posts to get (You)s

>>17578292

Except there is a middleground of successful Millenials on their own merits. Kids that adopted a trade instead of doing Gender studies and writing for Buzzfeed.

I'm 26, married, and have a combined income of 160k a year. My wife and I both drive nice, new (2015 and 2012, respectively) cars. We bought both of our cars brand new without outside assistance, live in the heart of a major city, and manage to get by without any stress.

In our particular case, I wanted "Cheap Performance", bought a new muscle car, and have been modifying it with the intention of maintaining the car for the duration of my life. My wife bought an uptrimmed truck for utility and the versatility of the larger cab for use as a mobile office.

Neither shitboxes nor crossovers nor expensive luxury are useful to us. I don't intend to buy a new car again and my wife literally refuses to look at anything except for trucks and full size SUVs because of their versatility over every other class of vehicle.

>>17578320

When is the last time you drove an American car? Because the Challenger, Charger, Mustang, CTS, 300, and Camaro, and SS have all existed for the last few years. They're all cheaper than a 7-seties, come with raucous V8s at low-mid trims, and push at or above 400hp while carrying warranties into the first two years without widespread failure.

>>17578304
>performance is not cheap outside of America
Why not?

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>>17578158
>>wrx
>>american muscle has better grip/power
I'm putting down 337awhp and weigh under 3,000lbs with a downpipe and tune.

>>17579381
You are not a market, you are an individual whom happens to be in a niche for that kind of car.

>>17579443
Any car can be good with mods.

>>17579450

It is a market. Look up demographics for millennial tradesmen. It's a fairly large portion of the 20-30 demographic.

>>17578139
sorry but europe is the one with bad planning.
the grid system is literally the most efficient you'll get. Cramming a bunch of people onto tiny streets is just about as inefficient as it gets.

>>17579443
I spent $775

>>17579443
>Mustang owner goes to his local Ford dealership and puts in an order for a Roush supercharger
>owner now has a 670HP Mustang with a 3 year Ford Racing warranty honored at any dealership

Comparing stock to modded cars is dumb

>>17578126
>Wrz

Also

>Brz
>Performance

Kek

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>>17578304
>most of the world is not America
Blow it out your ass.

>>17579218
im still on engine break in for another 900 miles so i dont think a full review would be fair because i havent taken it over 4k rpm

anything specific u want to know b0ss?

>>17579708
>gt86 has more performance than your bus/3k civic/whatever car you're gonna lie about owning

kek

>>17578760
>only lasts 1 lease period before detonating catastrophically

This was really all you needed to say, but 8/10 for the effort

>>17578346
and you can get a low miles good condition c6 z06 corvette for 25-30k with 2x the output and 10x the reliability of a wrx at the same price point

>>17579814
I want to know how you know it's faster than an SL600 if you haven't taken it over 4k rpms

Oh wait that's right this is /o/ you're a benchracer and you use it to get you back and forth from your job at McDonald's

>>17579903
That issue got fixed, just avoid first-year Z06's.

>>17579814
Nothing specifically, I just always find review threads interesting. Might get one in 4 years or so.

>>17579903
even if you get a grand sport or lt vette (which would be even cheaper) youre still getting 2x the car for the same or less

>>17579890
tell me where I said it's faster than the SL600.

>>17579425
Are you serious? Look up how much a mustang costs in Germany

>>17579823
No it literally does not you fag. 86 shills are cancer

>>17578052
I'm not really sure what you're saying, but m3/4 type German cars are in the same price range as zl1/gt350 after the ridiculous dealer markups.

>>17580263
M3/M4 offer Mustang GT/Camaro SS performance but cost a good 25k more. Imagine how much track time 25k will get you.

>>17579381
>26
>already married

Thats sad.
Hopefully shes hot as fuck and earns good enouh to offset that.

>>17578292
>Nissan Versa
>absolute shit
Versa apologist here, I agree that there are a lot of shortcomings with this vehicle, but it handles too good to be completely shit tier imo.

>>17580230
Then go find a new rwd car with same power and torque for less in Germany.

>>17580328
No need to be salty. It's not like he's taking food off your plate, anon.

>>17578605
i love how they look from the outside but they feel so claustrophobic for me once inside.

>>17578886
Yeah just saying, you don't have to buy the LT1 to get 400+ reliable HP in an affordable car that can still run on cheap gas. An LS2 will do that all day

>>17580773
lel

>>17579663
>there are literally 0 american vehicles that can match an european or japanese superbike
I don't know what the fastest bikes are but a Yamaha R1 does 7:10 BTG on the nurburgring and there are american cars below that time.

>>17581515
7:10 BTG would be like 7:30 total time wouldn't it?

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>>17578760
>Hard plastic would be removed from the top of the dash, and placed inside the water pump instead

>>17578605
Hated driving that car, though i like the new convertible. Maybe one day. But for now my corvette is good enough.

>>17578292
This post got me thinking that 20 years into the future young people must drive crossovers because that's all the used market offers.

>>17580329
No need to defend your mom's Nissan.

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>>17579503
Wrong. Spreading out increases transit distances, and transit requires time and resources.

The fact of American infrastructure is that proper upkeep has been skipped on for decades, people get in debt just so they can use it, and politics survive on keeping fuel cheap, so it's -already- unsustainable. It's completely and utterly oversized for the money that's actually there to run it, and any further additions are only going to make it worse, not better. I know your big American ego hates to hear it, but what your country actually needs to do is downscale. Roads, cars, houses, cities, everything. The current size is barely kept running and doesn't work in the long run.

>>17578886
LT1 also has direct injection which significantly reduces donation.

>>17578139
>the road systems would collapse and they wouldn't have money to maintain roads anymore (like the US)
>Like the US

I drove 6000+ miles round trip from Texas to Oregon less than a year ago

want me to tell you why you're retarded?

Maybe you mixed up shit commie states like NY, IL, and NJ with less shit ones

>>17578605
Drove a ~2013 manual and was surprised that it died if you let the clutch out without gassing it.

I think that common with modern manuals however

>>17582917
What? Even the 1.6l diesel Passat shitbox I've driven on multiple occasions didn't do that.

>>17582929
yeah, found it strange. Killed it backing out of a parking spot for the first time. Incredibly fun once I got over that little surprise, but a 6.2l engine should be able to get a car rolling with no throttle imo

>>17578760
kek.

>>17582842
There are american cars under the BTG time with traffic and if i were to go by the goalpost you usually pull it would be "post a faster bike time than all the american cars at the ring".

>>17582917
>>17582929
>>17582998
I've never driven a car where I could drop the clutch without gas and not stall out.

I've driven trucks with a deep 1st gear as well.
A 1st gear so deep you could practically climb a telephone pole in 1st.

>>17583869
>under the BTG
that is irrelevant as the yamaha r1 is not the fastest superbike

try again

american cars are slower than the fastest superbikes

>>17578126
He said cheap performance not expensive riced econoboxes.

>>17584111
>american cars are slower than the fastest superbikes
Then post superbikes faster than the fastest american cars on the ring.

>>17584168
sorry, the fastest superbikes have not lapped the ring, so as much as I want to, we cannot use the nurburgring

>>17584224
Then i guess you cannot say they are faster until they do.

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>>17584235
I can because they are faster on other circuits, plus let's not forget we can still arguee about straight line performance

why don't you post a 9 second american car that is under 20k?

>>17584260
But you said the ring was the only track that mattered. and i never said they were faster for the same price i just said they weren't faster.

>>17584276
>But you said the ring was the only track that mattered
what? where did I said so?

> they weren't faster.
nope, superbikes like the s1000rr and the h2r are faster

>>17584279
>what? where did I said so?
So does this mean the AMG GTR and ACR are faster than the GTR or do they need to post a lap time on the ring first?

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also
>i never said they were faster for the same price
this thread is about cheap performance in case you haven't noticed

america simply cannot compete with europe or japan in that aspect

>>17584288
>AMG GT R
>Nismo GTR
>Viper ACR

all slower and more expensive than the top superbikes

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>>17578760
Germany hasn't been burnt this bad since Dresden.

>>17584298
Then i guess the GTR is slower than the AMG GTR and ACR.
>this thread is about cheap performance in case you haven't noticed
I have, that wasn't what i was addressing though.

>>17578052
Why the rest of the world gives a flying fuck about global warming and paid vacation days which ramps up taxes and salaries so cars end up costing more, oh and fuel that cost $8+/gallon it's not gonna be "cheap" cars.
US cars cost a lot here, thus they aren't worth the money/horse power just like EU cars are "expensive" in USA.

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>>17584317
>Then i guess the GTR is slower than the AMG GTR and ACR.

sadly all 3 are slower and more expensive than the top superbikes

>I have

then I guess you understand that america is bottom of the barrel tier when it comes to cheap performance, as opposed to what OP said

>>17584317
>Then i guess the GTR is slower than the AMG GTR and ACR.
7:08

>>17584337
At least you aren't denying the GTR isn't fastest volume production car or its slower than its cheaper rivals. id probably also add the Corvette to that list.

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>>17584365
the GTR is the fastest volume production car around the ring

>>17584345
Still slower than a corvette.

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>>17584389
nope

>>17584402
Its faster on other tracks.

>>17584402
>edits out all the other tracks where the Corvette won

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>>17584407
>>17584408
the nurburgring is the only track that matters

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>>17584408
you mean fake lap times?

sorry not sorry

but only head to head and nurburgring times count

>>17584414
Nice contradiction.
>>17584421
Don't remember the super bikes beating all american cars in head to heads.

>>17584414
>this is what yuropoors actually believe.

>>17584428
>contradiction
where?

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>>17584433
sperg more

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>>17584440

>>17584449
so you accept you don't have an argument?

>>17584428
>Don't remember the super bikes beating all american cars in head to heads.
i dont either, >>17584345 was my first post

but now that you mention it
https://youtu.be/NaJNw6LWMCc?t=7m58s
hellcat and z06 beat, lmao

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>ragequitting

europe and japan offer superior performance at a cheaper price, america can't compete

>>17584478
>cant build bikes
>cant build cars
>cant build a wall
whats with with americans

>>17584492
>cant build a wall
Pretty sure they funded that.
Trump will probably build part of a wall and claim he fulfilled his promises

>>17584452
No, if the nurburgring is the only track that matters then bikes aren't faster.

>>17584492
Erik Buell would like a word with you.

>germany doesn't offer cheap performance
Porsche: Boxster, Cayman
BMW: BMW M3
Merc: A Class AMG
Audi: TT Sport, RS3
Volkswagen: Golf GTI, Golf R
>japan doesn't offer cheap performance
Toyota: GT86
Honda: Civic Type R
NIssan: 370Z
Mazda: MX-5, RX8
>italy doesn't offer cheap performance
Fiat: 500 Abarth, 124 Spyder Abarth
>Korea doesn't offer cheap perfornace
korea doesn't make performance cars, so moot point

all of these cars can be had new for or under corvette money.

>>17584531
I am not the guy you were talking to?

>>17584546
Hyundai has the Genesis coupe at least

>>17580328
Stereotypical Millennial spotted.

There are people who actually want a long term, loving relationship out there. A fuck fest with people you'll maybe see for a few weeks but keep emotional distance is not the only option.

>>17578052
Because it usually means a car that does not come with direct injection.

>>1758441
>the nurburgring is the only track that matters

Then why aren't all the races held there?

>>17585448
The only races that matter are.

>>17585448
Meant for >>17584414

>>17585459
And why is that?

>>17585483
Because it is the only track that matters. I thought we have already established this fact.

>>17585488
I want to see an actual argument,not "because i said so".

>>17585510
It's the biggest and most demmanding professional track in existance. what is there to discuss?

>>17585524
And? How does that make other tracks hold less value?

>>17585547
stop dude you're getting trolled

it's really embarrassing

jesus

>>17585622
Damn,guess I should've known when he started posting anime girls. I see that now.

Thanks.

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>>17578304
>and most of the world is not America.
but thats wrong

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>>17578704
>German engineering

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>replacing a heater core in a VW/Audi.jpg