Welcome to Auto Vidya General, the place to talk about driving and racing games
Previous Thread: >>17121574
Our Wiki will answer every question you could possibly have. All frequently asked questions can easily be found on the main page itself:
>http://get-good.net
Swing by our Mumble server and introduce yourself!
>Mumble IP: mumble.get-good.net
>Port: 64738
Join the /ovg/ group on Steam!
>http://steamcommunity.com/groups/ovgonsteam
Equipment Guide
>https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1uLKMbKwweUZ3QvFeNs8UeycZbDyo0McxGj7T6uTaTNo/edit#gid=0
We're racing on the weekends. Check out our Google doc for more info!
>https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1R3KWTJsrlS9X2EZUNXY8KbHfsHD-t3_EU_A1n6wBBQc
2nd for GT Sport will have OPTIMUM SIMULATION VALUE
>>17144506
>only having optimum simulation value
>not having EXCESSIVE SIMULATION VALUE
>>17144506
When does it come out? I just started GT6 and I don't want to buy a PS4
5th for Spork Jungle Cat
Juke series when?
>>17144382
Or he's taking a break.
>>17144799
DELETE THIS
shes live right now
probably drunk stream
>>17144506
>Gran Turismo
>Still good
It fell to shit after 5
[spoiler]Even though I hope Sport is good[/spoiler]
>>17144506
I've been living under a rock. Is this supposed to be a full game or a prologue?
>>17145240
Neither; it's supposed to be iRacing on the PS4.
>>17145255
Sounds good, thanks!
>>17145124
>recently found out how to open the secret menu in gt5
its like a whole new game now
>>17145240
Full game, though the marketing is heavily based around the online multiplayer and FIA-approved championships where you can earn a basic racing license IRL.
It'll be more like a prologue in terms of content though, since they're remodelling everything and ditching PS2 cars.
>>17145440
>remodelling everything and ditching PS2 cars.
fun fact: they're actually from the psp game
>>17145484
There are models from both GT4 and Portable in GT5 and 6.
>>17145498
i guess that would explain why the standard versions of the zr1 and enzo look like complete dogturds even next to the other standards
FRIENDLY REMINDER that we are TURNING LEFT SOON with physics and models ripped straight from iRacing
All information here http://get-good.net/index.php?title=OVGTURNLEFT
I started sim racing before i started driving lessons, because of that i've instinctively got a habit of left foot braking kek.
>>17145484
>>17145498
>>17145533
The PSP game came after GT4 (and GT5P) released, a handful of cars were new to the PSP version but it was nearly GT4 Mobile for total content. Don't forget GT3 cars were mostly recycled into GT4, and they're clearly the worst models still available in GT6 (S2000s with no wipers, keicar general, early NB general).
>>17145440
>since they're remodelling everything
Well, not really, some of the stuff is cars from (or were new to) GT5P-5-6.
>>17145864
r u dagumi or do u drive auto leik a bich
Throw it on your truck template and line up the corners
Hey my fellow simracers, gentlemen and scholars, it is I Stuart Hamilton (StuartHamilton on reddiit StuartHamilton#1738 on Discord).
Just wanted to drop by to let you fine memers know that my pal larguu (AnalAnthony on reddiit BlueEyesWhiteYiffer#1488 on Discord) and I will be entering your OVGTURNLEFT series.
We hope to have some good races with you on track!! ;)
Here are some previews of our skins that you'll see on track. Hopefully you'll only see the rear end LOL.
reply to @17147692
nice
>have a immensely great video game depiction of modern car culture with 10/10 graphics
>completely fuck it up with the worst physics engine known to mankind
what the fuck EA
>>17148086
takes one to know one
replying to 17148133 and 17148086
what is wrong with www reddit com
New San Francisco Rush when?
>>17148471
Never. Midway's dead.
Which PC racing game is the most realistic, and lets you customize the car mechanics more?
>>17148651
NFS.
>>17145804
I think it's actually Team Om3gas mid in ASRX
>>17148471
Arcade perfect port when?
>>17148651
Unironically Live for Speed.
What do you guys think about Burnout series
>>17148786
good fun
>>17144506
Agreed. GT Sport and Dirt4 are going to be the absolute best Sim racers on Console. Dirt4 looks absolutely insane and immediately won me over instead of GRAVEL. I was in the GT Sport Beta and loved the shit out of it. Excited for FIA regulated E sports.
>>17148671
no its iracing, team om3ga's model is completely symmetric
>>17149177
I wish we were doing theirs the '15 models look so much better but I doubt they're in ASRX
>>17149214
thats a terrible opinion but team om3gas 2015 model is in American Stock Car which is an ASRX mod
>tfw the 911 is really good at corners, but shit at straights in AC
Fuck me, I can't get it to 290 on Daytona, even when running 10 wing in the back. Even though I could run even less (thank god for that banking), I can't go any faster than 286.
Pls halp.
>>17149259
>He a meme splitter cuck
>>17149662
the splitters only looked cool in the trucks
>>17149908
They looked awful on everything
>>17150229
you seem really good at being wrong, tell me your secrets
>>17150272
He likes kirino
>>17150272
>He honestly think this looks good
>>17150283
Hey he's not me, but I agree with him
I want everyone to guess what game this screenshot of this M6 GT3 is from.
>>17150335
Raceroom
heres another pic, my favourite skin is the ARTA Autobacs one
>>17150344
Your wrong, believe it or not
>>17150335
PC2
>>17150354
oh my bad, its rFactor 2 with sweetFX
>>17150362
You win a cookie good sir.
>>17145124
is it still worth getting 5 or should I just wait for Sport and pray that it's good?
>>17150373
5 a shit
6 is basically 5 but with better everything
I just played a few hours of Horizon 3 and it's not clicking.
Maybe it's too arcadey? I find racing on tracks infinitely more fun that around an open world. Anyone else feel like this?
Thankfully it runs really well and looks great, I'll have to give it another try later
Reminder to rF2 owners, there is a casual league starting tomorrow.
https://www.reddit.com/r/rFactorRedditRacing/
>>17150517
I prefer open world, but only if it's done well. Horizon 3's world is big and diverse, I'll give it that, but it's pretty boring. Horizon 2 did it way better with its rolling hills and tight city streets. Horizon 3 is just a lot of straight roads and small turns. It's just not fun to drive around in.
And I won't get started on this, but let's just say for a game about freedom, there are a lot of limitations.
>>17150373
http://get-good.net/index.php?title=Gran_Turismo#Gran_Turismo_5
the quali for friday pickup starts in around 3 hours.
The info and the car is on the doc. Make sure to bind a button for push to pass too.
>>17150307
Give me your name so I can put your damn splitter in the wall
>>17150588
>>17150706
There's no haldex on the TT Cup.
>>17150838
The internet lied to me.
Does anyone remember pic related?
Does anyone know of a game that would have a good Mad Max feeling to it? I beat the game when it came out, and now I want more. Bonus points if it has bikes, cars, and trucks.
>>17151107
Fuel
>>17151130
>the one xbox 360 game with the title written up the side of the case instead of down
Triggered my autism when I bought that desu.
>>17151130
>can't buy it on Steam
>GFWL and Securom
If I go pirate a copy, will I be able to play it?
>get beamNG to scratch my forza itch on laptop
>wanna go do towgy
>tune a car for a while
>car still understeers and oversteers and understeers around a slight corner at 30 mph
>try race car variant
>understeers oversteers understeers oversteers at 31mph
>google it it, everyone says "BEAM NG BEST DRIVING PHYSICS AND MOST REALISM EVER IN ANY GAME EVER OF EVER"
>get in my car
>hit tight twisties doing 40-50mph and drive as on rails
why is beamNG nothing but a glorified tech demo
>>17151288
muh damage modelling!
>>17150930
there is no haldex (or broken one) in audi S1 or whatever that thing is called in AC
>>17151288
Your bus must have had a good driver
>>17151210
yeah
>>17151311
S1 =! TT Cup
The S1 can engage AWD, the TT Cup does not have a driveshaft to drive the rear wheels
>>17151288
the game mostly has really low-grip tires but if you pop on some slicks you can get shit done son
>>17150335
FYI AGU-moding AC mod, EEC GT3 and simtek rF2 mods all use M6GT3 3d model ripped from PC2.
>>17151585
ian bell stole my m6 gt3 model
>>17151311
I mean the internet lied to me about the TT cup being awd f a m
>>17144638
Either late this year or early 2018 desu
15 minutes to quali for the tt cup.
Don't be like lancer and bind your kers button.
>>17150598
larguu, good luck crashing me, maybe you'll have a chance when im lapping you
horizon 3 is annoying as shit
how do i stop all this oversteer
the cars feel so light and unresponsive its gross
>>17151882
gitgud
Lancer vs STiguy
>>17152250
lancer should have passed him around the outside because no one would expect that
>>17152250
Why did lancer choose to go there?
Wich PC games let me drive the Tipo 33 Stradale?
pro editing
>>17152270
that was the plan bud
>>17152273
he hogged the inside of the turn and I had wayy more speed because I was drafting, so I had 3 options.
>go outside
>slam into him
>brake
I went outside onto the bit of asphalt, expected him to give me some room but he wouldn't budge.
unfortunate series of events.
>>17152288
I never knew my car had yellow on the rear
>>17152288
>>17152296
learn something new everyday
>>17152275
Horizon 3
>>17151882
Reminder that gas isn't a toggle.
>>17152350
Thanks
>>17150972
Everyone does but that one was mediocre at best. 2049 is way better.
>>17151788
I don't even know the track and I've matched your time...
See you Saturday
TFW I realize Dirt 4 would have denuvo and probably wont be cracked.
>>17152429
good luck idiot im gonna make you remember why you wear a hans device
>>17152494
i dont wear one cause im not a pussy like you and your gonna end up in the wall assclown they dont call me intimidator larguu for nothing
>>17152666
>>17152666
>>17152666
>>17144595
>tfw no headset for VR Whiplash
>>17148471
Texture pack for 2049 N64?
also never
>>17152275
Forza 4
Driver San Francisco has the similarly beautiful Giulia TZ2.
Is the turnleft server down?
>>17152826
should be back now probably
>>17152956
its bacc
>>17152250
obviously lancer like most incidents. why did you guys run that retarded layout
Has there ever been a project cars league here? Would there even be any interest in one? It'd be cool if we could get 32 people in one, 8 lmp2s, 8 lmp1s, 8 gt3s, 8 gt4.
@17153943
not even wasting my meme arrows with you mr. ian bell
>>17153943
yea i play it on the xbox 360 hope i can join you guys on it
>>17153943
>Would there even be any interest in one?
No. The game is too shit for that and very few if any have it on PC.
>Main LOD,cockpit LR,Lod1 ready. Lod 2,3 wip. Relase tomorrow!
>>17154893
Looks like he's bringing this to AC, neat. wish that nigger would hurry up and bring the merc judd v8 and opel kadett s2 up to date
http://www.apelectrix.com/index.html
>The price is still $75.00/unit
Thoughts?
>>17154278
But I like it on the pc :(
>>17154970
try fb groups or reddit. around here you will not find many to join you on pc
>>17152666
gfin exposed
also nice trips
>WAT: Rally
gt86 rally spec >>> 997 r-gt
>>17152666
not surprised at all by who it is
>>17152418
Nah, SF Rush was best. Arcade was better, but if you got the N64, cheat codes were the shit and then you could go to the stunt track on that one city level with multiplayer and puts around doing stupid cool shit. 2049 was just another shitty "future" racing game.
>>17155190
No, it was not in the same vein as f-zero, extreme g, and wipeout so I have no clue what you are talking about in terms of futuristic racers. It controls and plays exactly the same as the first two Rush titles but the handling is much more polished along with actual variety given to the tracks. The cars aren't even futuristic aside from 3 out of the 13 in the game. You should actual give the game a go some time so you could see that what you have said is not actually true.
Formula Hybrid league when?
>>17155439
>hubrid
never.
>>17155441
Do you hate fun?
>>17155439
go away kilgore
>>17154939
haha lol. It's dead. Get the ricmotech one.
>>17155527
>order ricmotech
>gets stuck in customs
>gets returned to them
>get in contact with them
>LOL WE DONT KNOW WHAT HAPPENED YOU CANT HAVE YOUR MONEY BACK
>>17144472
Why cant I catch slides properly? I always correct for them but the end up spinning the other way.
>>17155532
Wow, that sucks. Mine crossed the atlantic and customs fine.
>>17152691
>one tap kills the race for 3 drivers
AC pub drivers never ceaze to amaze me
Does AC lets you manually set the grid for a race?
Because Forza 6 does.
https://ar12gaming.com/articles/forza-6-esports-update
What are your thoughts in this game?
>>17155598
No.
>>17155611
not a single good thing about it
not even the name is redeemable
>>17155598
Why does it take them forever to add things we've had on PC since the beginning?
What are some not so demanding arcade for PC with splitscreen? NFS Underground 2 and Carbon doesn't have splitscreen. Blur has it, but I would do without the powerups (I know there is a non powerup racing mode).
>>17155116
Gt86 r3 is an uncompetitive meme car
Is there any good high speed off road racing games with varied tracks on PC? Something like Dakar for example.
>>17155718
I guess those features are only needed for serious leagues and Forza was never designed with that in mind until e-sports came along.
>>17155721
Codemasters games before GRID and from DiRT 3 onwards.
Trackmania.
>>17155721
Whiplash
>>17152666
>>17152691
Just playing doubles advocate, most of the pack breaks really early. 1st, 2st, and the guy causing the crash all stop way later.
>>17155844
We figured that out though. The dude did a senna on fin.
>>17155453
I hate hybrids
>>17155807
>Whiplash
>>17155790
>Codemasters games before GRID and from DiRT 3 onwards.
Thanks, but do you mean GRID Autosport, not the first GRID right?
>>17155859
You should've drove the TT yesterday.
>>17155861
>first GRID
>not the best GRID
>>17155869
I did. It was a good meme, but thats about it
>>17155861
>>17155876
I mean, GRID actually came before DiRT 3
>>17155861
Before the first GRID, it was the first one to lose split screen on PC. GRID 2 and Autosport have split screen.
>>17155721
Ignition
Rollcage
Need For Speed II, III, High Stakes
Rally 2000
>>17154893
That's the Mini from the late 90s right?
It looks pretty neat but honestly I'd be more excitied for a 60s touring car spec Mini to go alongside the Mk1 Escort and Alfa GTA. I dunno,maybe it's still competitive with those cars
>>17154893
Timo Mäkinen memorial race coming soon
>>17156428
bonnet must be up
>>17156428
All ovg Finns must race.
>>17155861
What? It has split screen and if you have a relatively recent CPU it should run beautifully.
>>17156529
>if you have a relatively recent CPU
like a +500MHz Pentium III
>>17156538
or like a 3rd-gen or later Intel Core iN, they run Dosbox smooth as fuck. The 1st and 2nd-gens have trouble with it for some reason.
>>17156598
Glad to have you here with us Mika
Palanga GT3 race in 2 hours
>>17156852
kys with the meme circuit
>>17156887
kys with your shit taste and shit posts
>>17156947
Have you ever thought why nobody ever wanted to drive that POS track, you trash?
It's shit. But I guess it's ok to be ironic now. Go ahead and make more shitty tabs in the doc too.
>>17156969
You seem angry, friend. Have you tried stepping away from the keyboard, and taking a breather?
>>17156969
I briefly thought about why nobody important wanted to drive that track. But then they're not important so who cares?
>>17157014
Who is important in /ovg/
>>17157041
Anyone who shows up at the GT3 race
>>17156887
hehehe cry more nerd hehehehe
>>17156852
>le funny Marko
>le funny reddit track
Leave
>>17157108
>i think something is bad so it must be reddit xDDD
u got me ive been pwned by your 1337n355
>>17157108
>le unfunny mad
>le unfunny reddit post
Stay
>>17156995
Have you tried not ruining even more our community?
>>17157208
is it that time of year again
What is the state of AC? Is it the best game to teach myself car control?
>>17157354
no rFactor 1 is
>>17157354
no rFactor Pro is
>>17157354
no automobilista is
first race was good bois
>>17157746
hands down best race of /ovgt3/ s4
>>17157816
hands down most dead race of /ovgt3/ s4
11 (eleven) drivers
>11 people race
wow... this is sad...
>>17157816
hands down the shittiest pander I've ever seen
>>17157932
>>17157935
a series run by ogc for ogc pulls ogc numbers. hmm really made me think
>excluding the first ever /ovgt3/ race in september 2014, hands down the worst /ovgt3/ turnout of all time
the deader it is the funner it is
really makes you think
>all these ass mad assetto cornetto shills
>>17157974
>this justification for chasing everyone out
@17157993
>>>/ogc/
@17158000
only good board there is 1cc
>>17157993
>>17158000
>>17158005
So funny! You denied them (you)s!
Rotflmao
>>17157964
are you implying that /ogc/ literally took over the saturday evening spot and that /ovg/ has absolutely nothing against it?
are you literally saying that /ovg/ is weaker than /ogc/?
also /ogc/ numbers is 5 people, not 11.
>>17157966
nah we had more than nemuno ziedas
>>17158057
the patriots have been defeated
>>17158065
Nice
tags
SJ Spork Juct SporkJuct Adrian Krieger Shadow Government Cipher La Li Lu Le Lo The Patriots
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Huctij4C2hc
>look up palanga 1000km footage
>they have a fucking marcos mantis
memest
Major Tom this is ground control make yourself present in the command center
>>17158107
Haha, is that a tomthy post?
ARCA @ TALLADEGA starting now
http://zoofalmily.net//?canal=1
Come watch the finest brakes in racing
also where the fuck are you tomthy
>No webms of the carnage
I'm disappointed.
>>17158556
ARCA's on, no time
>>17158556
Dead series
>>17158576
who the fuck about some stupid turn left.
>>17158590
>>17158590
>>17155743
the gt86 has v10 tyres
where do you watch those rally broadcasts? YT?
This was a fucking great race
>>17158766
>x-games freestyle.webm
hello i am very new here, how do i join the mx5 race tomorrow??? thank you!!!
>>17158849
lmao wut r u dumb? the doc is rite there in the original post u idiot
>>17158860
okay so what do i do from there? type in my info then what?!?!
>>17158873
delete coreshaders.mas
>>17158898
thanks i'm glad this group is so friendly and welcoming
>>17158057
/ogc/ doesn't exist anymore, the merrymen took it down and drove SJ into a mental ward.
>>17158766
doesn't look very serious to me DISLIKE!!!!!!
http://www.racedepartment.com/downloads/vrc-1991-jordan-191.15281/
sexy
@17159281
(You)
>tfw no race 1 replay
Race 2 attempt 1
Haven't raced since ovg Blancpain in November 2015... Now I have a G27 and roody poo rigged up a COCK pit.
Did you guys move onto Assetto Corsa or are there still weekend races in Rf1? I remember spending 10 fucking hours of lapping Brand's hatch and I absolutely hated it.
Can anyone fill me in on anything I missed?
T. Cuck-nadian
Also
LONDON
O
N
D
O
N
>>17144472
Dirt Rally?
Race 2 attempt 2
Race 2 attempt 3
Three wide starts were a mistake
Cheap tricks
>larguu
JUST
>>17160474
jesus christ stephano fix your buggy italian programming
>>17158912
Don't forget to donate to ovgavi for sexy pictures of retarded blondes!
>>17160276
this shit was so much fun
10/10 would palanga again
>>17160981
haha, that's an incredibly funny post! What's your reddit accout so I can gift you some reddit gold?
>>17161522
/u/-semaj-
>>17160269
there are 2 races left in the current meme GT3 season on rf
we do AC on sundays and fridays + special events
some sorta series on rf for thrusday
ASRX series planned for shits and giggles
check the doc senpai
>>17161522
it's really sad that you get dubs yet can't figure out how to use a google doc
waste of perfectly good repeating digits
>>17161580
Haha, is that tubby post? That is so funny! Look at all those weird effects!
Rotflmao
>>17160523
To be fair, you were the one teleporting in our screens
fonsecker sfx updated
>Changelog for Pack 1:
>New internal sounds for BMW Z4 GT3
>New internal sounds for Lamborghini Huracan GT3
>small updates on the transmission sounds on almost all cars
>Volume level updates on all cars
>Changelog for Pack 2:
>New internal sounds for Mercedes AMG GT3
>small updates on the transmission sounds on almost all cars
>Volume level updates on all cars
>Changelog for Pack 3:
>New car sound BMW M235i racing
>small updates on the transmission sounds on almost all cars
>Volume level updates on all cars
>Changelog for Pack 4:
>New car sound Porsche 991 RSR 2017
>new transmission sounds for Porsche 991 GT3 Cup 2017
>new transmission sounds for Porsche 991 GT3 R 2016
>Volume level updates on all cars
>>17161624
you sound like a cute girl. here have a free meme
>>17161669
Oh my god! A help helper one! This is incredibly funny too!
You have so many meme pictures anon!
>>17161653
Shit modder with an inflated ego so big, he thinks he can insult kunos devs.
No thanks, I will use vanilla sounds. He probably made them sound unrealistic.
>>17161679
i c wut u did ther
>>17161672
no, thanks to you for replying to my posts with such passion
much love
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9_5i_aet24&feature=youtu.be
>Heinemann on first
>Risto nowhere to be found
APOLOGIZE
>>17161694
Love you too bby
>>17161707
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8vaH260ZWg
>>17161580
>always see my worst tubbies posted and never my best ones
:thinking:
>>17154893
>>17156428
[Autistic screeching intensifies]
>>17161766
post your good tubbies
>>17161802
hahaha ebin because finns drift cars :DDDDDD
>>17161877
just cause you got dubs
>>17161881
yes
>>17158873
just join the server nibba
>ovg whines about no night or rain in AC
>Almost always runs races on sunny and clear days
Just let that detonate in your brain
>>17161982
we set rfactor 1 to random weather but it always gives us a clear sunny day what are the odds
>>17161982
>ovg complains about simulation value
>runs on 5% damage
S-sugoi... Really made me kangaeru...
>>17161982
>tfw more used to night and rain racing in gta5 than in sims
makes u think
My friend and I picked up Spaghetto Corsa and set up a short track server. Search "gotta go fast" :^)
As people who are very into cars, do you anons prefer arcade or simulation racing games?
http://www.strawpoll.me/12914228
>>17162029
simcade
>>17162029
i dont like cars at all im just here for video games
>>17162029
i dont like video games at all im just here for shitposting and drama
>>17162029
i dont like cars, videogames, shitposting or drama im just here because i cant leave
about to start a new championship
anyone want to play and compare times?
>>17162252
Not really
>>17162029
Simcade
anyone still iracing or na
>>17162458
When I have the time I do some races. Not often these days though.
>>17162343
get sum wedd frum chinna
>>17162458
No I cancelled my subscription after the 20% increase in prize
>>17162562
>not wanting to win bigger prizes
https://a.uguu.se/ibgcV3y8ptUn_netqrallyleg1.webm
leg 1 in 15:47
leg 2 has more distance than all of SHiT Rally
>>17160157
Sexy indeed and it drives alright aswell. Although I've noticed that the cars from this mod team have some wierd setup option called Steering Assist which I haven't seen on any other car. It seems to be a FFB multiplier but that's redundant because there is an option for a car specific FFB multiplier in a different tab of the setup menu and hotkeys for it to change it while driving.
Is there more to it or is that just how the FFB multiplier was controlled in earlier versions of AC?
>>17162707
>unironically using anonymous as name
>>17161961
what server?
Friendly reminder MX-5 cup in 1 hour 20
>>17162801
literally the default name
>>17162813
how join
>>17162905
Sign up on our doc
https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSepEGcLRmODiyFZwWpDDB6rdMHaAm-TMjlsbEOpAOzDA_kMTA/viewform
>>17162943
pleaSE
>>17162813
Do I need to be a gay hairdresser to race?
>>17163017
only if you want to be on the podium
>>17162905
>literally too retarded to read OP
stay out
>>17163068
xD you tell him bro!
No casuals in our leagues lmao
got no engine sound in the AC MX5
please advise
>>17163275
Take it to your local Mazda dealer
Has anyone here actually ever raced? Thinking about getting into hornet racing
>>17163275
Have you tried reading the doc?
>Taken out in both races
fuk me up senpai
>>17163373
POWERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR has raced
>>17163373
Powerrr, , Kiwi and ZG. Bob's done some time trial stuff in open wheelers and Von is a qualified Co-Driver
I don't know if you knew, but Greeks are the funniest species on the planet.
>>17163453
>>17163453
>>17163453
new thread
>>17163448
how so?
>>17163428
Risto and Isaac do karts as well
>>17151288
put slicks on and bump the pressures up by five to ten points. it drives lots better, but it's still dogshit