anyone else miss Pontiac???

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YES

Pontiac was the best

>inb4 mourning thumbstone pontiac dog

But I bet they will return at some point.
The brand is still in people's minds and has potential.
My guess is some kind of sporty e-car some time in the 2020s.

>>16457934
Even GM misses Pontiac.

>Gm sells fieros buy the fuck load
>scraps the model

WHY YOU FUCKS

>>16457947
It's beautiful.

>>16457962
Completely retarded management, that's why

>>16457962
on paper it wasn't making money, because pontiac put all the Fiero profit right back into R&D to make it a better car

also the concept second gen fiero had the potential to be faster around GM's own track than the Corvette and we all know what GM does to cars faster than muh 'vette

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>>16457962

Also fifth gen grand prix was the best W body

>>16457972

Those riffled, thick sideskirts of Pontiac cars are my fetish.

Actually kinda unique if I think about it.

/o/, should I?
http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/dak/ctd/5941554507.html

No

/thread

I really want a Pontiac G8 GXP. Those fucking cars hold their worth so well. I see ones with over 100k going for twenty thousand dollars sometimes.

>>16458002
yeah, but get it down some

>>16457934
Yes.

I hate GM because they make trash that isn't worth owning without a comprehensive warranty. But at least with Pontiac, you could buy something kinda cool and fun and get a warranty on it.

It's the same thing as Chrysler. Nobody is gonna buy their shitboxes because they are trash, but at least they are selling cool shit now like Challengers so people still buy them.

Pontiac made beautiful cars.

They look great when they are dead in your driveway.

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>>16458146
Exactly!

What good did a broken down Malibu ever do for anybody?

Pontiac was cool back in the days of chrome bumpers, but the last few years of the company they were just Chevys with added fins, spoilers, and gauges.

>>16457934
Considering that I see old Sunfires and Grand Ams everyday, and all the normies I know have nothing but good things to say about the brand, I'm inclined to say yes.

Pontiacs from the 80s up into the 2000s were cheap shitboxes, but they were fun, cool looking shitboxes. I can easily see GM reviving Pontiac at some point as a cheaper, sportier sub-brand of Chevrolet.

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>>16458226
At least they were kinda trying to make some cool shit while most other American cars aside from trucks were generic crap.

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First muscle car, can't argue against that

>>16458290
Mid-60s was objectively the best time for car design.

>>16457934
No, I could never tell them different from Cadillac.

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>>16458310
I think 1963-1964 was good but I prefer 1969-1973 era.
But I'm not one to ask for taste and design, I love the pure trash designs from the 70's and 80's.
American cars just really appeal to me.
I even love the trash in the pic related and have a wagon fetish, nothing is as cool as a huge old muscle car wagon.

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>>16458340
Nigger detection.

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fuck yes

>>16458516
Pure ws6 sex.

>>16458400
69-73 was def a little heavier on the muscle cars trying to compete with eachother but they made everything look really aggressive. They look good but I'm a fan of how clean the cars from a few years earlier looked. Almost like a sleeper look. Reminds me of 90s german sports cars like the M3 where it was just a real subtle body kid but tons of goodies under the hood.

>>16458516
Athough I did bitch about cars looking too aggressive, I will always love the WS6. When I was like 14, dude I knew had a black one and it was so mean. Did like a 5min long burnout in a shopping center parking lot and tore holes in the asphalt.

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Gone but not forgotten

>>16457947
i owned an 88 gt fast back in high school
everyone thought it was a Ferrari.

I dream to own a ws6 trans am one day

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maybe the ugliest production car ever is a Pontiac

>>16458806
I'd take a Firebird over a Camaro of the same era any day.

>>16458844
>ugly

Literally every second car (crossover) looks like it was inspired by it.

That car was just waaaaaaayyyyyy ahead of its time.

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Yup.

>tfw the American compact car that had an aluminium engine, transaxle and independent rear suspension before the Corvette was a commercial flop and got turned into a generic midsize, solid rear axle, leaf spring barge after three model years

>>16457957
they really do.
I think in general, Pontiac was the soul of GM. they regret having to close it because it was where they put all their interesting ideas.

>>16458340
Poor
Old
Nigger
Thinks
It's
A
Cadillac

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>>16458516
personally i was never fond of the way the ram air scoop looked on the 98+ Trans Am. I prefer the sleeker look of the early Fourth gen without the scoops.

although personally, I think the third gen trans am was peak firebird

>>16458970
I fucking love the turd gen. The side profile does it for me every time. I'll be picking one up in the spring hopefully

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are ws6s easy to find in canada?
i might be moving there soon and importing one here would be impossible

>>16458720
it's aggressive in a good way,not what todays definition of angry grille is

>>16458535
god bless america

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Are we done circlejerking over Camaro rebadges yet?

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>>16459098
Not yet

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>>16457947 I want one so bad

>>16457934
>fiero
>firebird / trans am ws6
>G8 GXP
>solstice GXP

Not a day goes by I don't miss Pontiac, GM shoulda axed Buick instead but didn't because Chinese market.

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>>16459103
Now?

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>>16459184
I wonder if Pontiac would've gotten this as the G6 if GM hadn't axed them. With base features but the OPC engine and 4WD it would've been a great fit for Pontiacs performance image. Much better than the lethargic, horrid, crappy actual G6 anyway.

>>16459222
Instead they gave it to Buick without the OPC engine option, and called it the Regal.

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>>16457934

Yea, because of their position in GM to be a bit more than the Chevy gave them a little bit more breathing room to outdance the bean counters. Like the first GTO package wasn't a factory installed option, you checked the box on your order form and the guy in the parts department would go get the manifold and Tri-power and put it in the trunk, you were expected to put it on yourself.

Plus you have things like pic related, a cosworth sourced DOHC head for the Iron Duke Superduty (AKA half a Pontiac V8). While it looks like sex, they actually did worse than the 2 valve pushrod set up.

Who didn't love the old GTO, but on the other hand

>same 90 cars as the rest of GM lineup
>the ones that weren't SUVs were FWD and had the same boat anchor engine and crappy parts
>the two cars of note from last decade were foreign by design

Your 90 HP Fireturd doesn't count, you fucking autists

>>16459260
Exactly.

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GRAND AMINO

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EL JUDGE

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>>16459457
>tfw you will never hide a GNX engine in a G-Body Grand Am or Grand Prix

>>16459302
What

>>16458844
it was until nissan made the juke

>>16459001
good luck anon.

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>>16458290
>First muscle car
By what standards?

>>16457934
>anyone else miss Pontiac???
Pontiac? Sure.
Chevyac? Not so much.

I drove my mom's Pontiac Torrent once.

It was faster than I expected.

It had a Chinese engine and died just after 100K miles though.

Piece of shit.

>>16458290
>>16460154
I thought the shoebox was the first muscle car engine package

>>16459119
Something must be very wrong if you can't afford a Fiero

>>16457962
It threatened the Corvette.
GM murders anything that does that.

>>16458844
It was truly ahead of its time.

>>16460896
I remember in 5th grade I thought the Solstice and the Saturn Sky were like the coolest cars ever.

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>>16458970
>not having a 98-02 ls1 firebird formula t/a non ws6 like mine

It doenst have nostrils but it has side skirts and a wing a trans am badge

>tfw 4th gen fbody and 4th gen civic

>>16460896
>worst pone
>on worst pontiac

pottery

I love mine, after the engine dies ill just replace it. At 120k now, hoping I have a while left.

>>16458863
>That car was just waaaaaaayyyyyy ahead of its time.
Not unusual for Pontiac desu. Some of the best ideas and innovations were born from the the Pontiac division but GM was too caught up in their pecking order bullshit and hubris to fully capitalize on it.

>>16457934
Pontiac and Oldsmobile, fuck yeah. I'd sacrifice Chevy in a heartbeat of america to get them back.

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>>16458844
I-i don't think so bud

>>16460163
I once heard that the 81 Turbo Trans am had no power difference compared to the base model, was that true?

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>>16460963
at least it's not applejack on a Sunfire

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>>16461267
>second worse pone
>on pure shit tier car

not really

by time they died they hadnt done anything worthwhile for decades

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>>16461094
Their days under the cocaine fueled gaze of John Z. were their best but damn if they didn't try to go out swinging their whole lifecycle.

>the stamped steel rocker arm was the product of a Pontiac engineer
>'63 Tempest and all the technologies that tried to bring to the table
>First contemporary muscle car in the '64 GTO, developed in secret by a gang of freewheeling loons, marketing team called it the GTO just to piss off the Italians
>OHC Pontiac Sprint six, domestic, high-winding "REFINED" inline six that put even some of the best Yurop had to offer to shame
>patented fiberglass-reinforced belt that drove the cam has basically been outright copied for OHC engines since
>The Pontiac Banshee and everything about it
>Pontiac produced basically the last great V8 of the muscle car era in the SD455
>right before the smog era Pontiac was about to implement a lot wild shit like the Ram Air V, an OHC V8 (a running example still out in the wild under the hood of Ian McKellar's Grand Prix), a DOHC V8 and hemi headed V8 (ten or so pairs of those hemi heads going to Mickey Thompson)
>bringing out domestic mid-engine car for the everyman with the Fiero and the associated SD4
>making GM shit their pants when the 2000s refresh of the Grand Prix was supposed to be an AWD monster with an LS heart
>still had the consumer in mind even when they basically weren't allowed to build their own cars and offered neat shit like the G8 with tons of available options

Based Pontiac.

>>16461267
>Pontiac hat
I know that's an ancient image from the filename, but if anything Pontiac and Oldsmobile guys are probably the two groups most likely to tell you how fucking awful GM is.

>>16461303
>>16461349
>tfw you will never, ever live in the timeline where Pontiac and Olds rolled out their respective DOHC V8s in '71, simultaneously giving the finger to the bean counters, the gen-2 Fiero whipped the Corvette sideways with its V6 and the Oldsmobile inline-4 version forever brought together the General's redheaded stepchild divisions until the present day where Buick got a mercy killing in the 2000's, the rebadging nonsense of the 90's, the cut-and-paste sedans of the 80's, and the "GM putting Chevy engines into other divisions and not telling anyone until they were bought on the dealer's lot" shit of the 70's never happened, and the Charger and Challenger Hellcat duo cowers in fear of a modern Tempest/GTO and Cutlass/442 combo while the Corvette team jacks off to LeMans times in the corner now that they can't steal tech from the other divisions as easily

Why are we still here?

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>>16461413
Just to suffer.

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>>16461349
Those poor pontiac and olds boys probably had the baddest cars on the road in '69, sold them for peanuts and then suffered with 20 years of w-bodies and ended up posting on an Aurora forum.

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>>16461489
To be fair, Auroras are neat just for how weird they are. Let's make a big luxury sedan with all sorts of neat luxury stuff as standard equipment- but let's also make it front wheel drive, unibody (so strong it broke the testing press and GM had to use one meant for trucks to crush it), and powered by a slightly shrunk, transverse-mounted Cadillac Northstar V8. Oh, and then let's take it circuit racing and see how many races we can win with it, too.

Olds must have had some obsession with taking FWD luxury barges and making them do things they weren't supposed to, considering thirty years earlier they took the fucking Toronado and set a new Pikes Peak hillclimb time with it.

The public loved the Aurora, too, they sold like fucking hotcakes and the Intrigue and other 2000's Olds cars directly copied its styling because of it- yet despite the huge sales of the Aurora and its various A-named brethren as well as the laughably-"utility"-but-people-still-bought-it Bravada, the end was already in sight for the century-plus company.

>>16461548
>and powered by a slightly shrunk, transverse-mounted Cadillac Northstar V8. Oh, and then let's take it circuit racing and see how many races we can win with it, too.
Should have worded that a bit better, it was the engine used in racing, not the car- a period or two would have helped there. People who followed that type of thing still knew about it, though, which might have contributed to sales as well.

>>16461561
So wait, they used the 4.0 DOHC V8 from the Aurora to race? How many bolts were on the mains?

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>>16461575
Googling tells me the Northstar has 4-bolt mains so I'm gonna assume the Aurora engine does as well.

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>>16461627
Hang on, is this fucking thing a split case with a girdle to retain the crank?

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>>16461682
Surprise!

>>16461728
Never looked into the Northstars much, goddamn. Thing is pretty serious business for a luxury car engine if it's packing that kind of bottom end.

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>>16457934
Desperately so. The world just isn't right without the Trans Am. The molded Camaros from TADepot don't count.

>>16461740
It's not a Northstar per se, it's derived from it tho

>>16461740
It's a luxury car engine that's still a twin-cam 4.6L V8 pushing close to 300hp. There was also a 4.4L supercharged version putting out well over 400.

Northstars have a number of known problems- namely, they blow headgaskets like a pop star blows lines, they love burning and leaking coolant, and they can overheat hot enough to warp and/or crack the block but NOT get hot enough to trigger the engine's limp mode- but goddamn are they smooth as glass when they're running properly.

>>16461756
Although we were discussing the actual Northstar, the Aurora 4.0 is essentially just a Northstar de-bored to half a liter smaller and with some external parts regarding oil and cooling changed, keeping the same internals.

The V6 'Shortstar' is different, though, being engineered from scratch (so contrary to popular belief, it isn't just an Aurora engine with two cylinders lopped off the end).

>>16461789
Ahhh the Shortstar, literally the most underrated engine to come from GM during the malaise era

>>16461789
I always remember hearing about the cooling problems. Was the head gasket issue a quality control issue in casting/machining? Or like a problem with the gaskets themselves?

>>16461743
They look like someone stuck a Camaro in an oven and it melted. Sad really

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>>16461489
I always loved the Aurora. It looked like a fucking alien and I've only heard good things about them.

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>>16461800
The Shortstar came out with the Olds Intrigue in either '99 or 2000, that's definitely well past the malaise era.

>>16461804
No idea, unfortunately. Everyone knows they blow gaskets and everyone (including myself) knows at least one person who's had to deal with it in their Caddy, but no one apparently quite knows WHY, and Googling it just gives hits regarding replacing the gasket which is apparently an awful job due to how complex the engine is. I wouldn't think it's a matter of quality control- Cadillac being GM's big money-maker aside from the 'vette, obviously, and historically they always used B-O-P (Buick, Olds, and Pontiac) to test stuff in case it went bad and the public hated it, which makes it doubly surprising that the Northstars have such a big issue that almost everybody who's encountered them knows about, even non-car people getting it through word of mouth.

>>16461817
Aside from the engine (which doesn't like leaking quite as bad due to the smaller displacement, apparently), everyone I've ever talked to has loved them and they sold well enough to run for a second generation, albeit a pretty heavily redesigned one. I always wondered what would have happened if instead of only putting the name Aurora on the car, Oldsmobile had proudly displayed their name and logo on the front and back- so people could say, "Olds is making good cars again!" instead of, "An Aurora? Who makes that?"

I only wish the ass end on the first gens lit up all the way across instead of just on the corners. Full width taillights are my fetish.

>>16461849
No, that was the trailer end of the malaise era, it officially ended when GM came out with the CTS and the 300/Magnum/Charger LX cars came out, also the Focus SVT, Dodge Neon SRT-4, and Cobalt SS/Ion Redline
When they started trying again

>>16461876
I have literally never heard of the malaise era described as going beyong the 1980's. By your standard the C5 Corvette and first and second generation Viper are both in the malaise era and that's just ridiculous.

>>16457934
No.

They were basically just a parts bin Chevy/Buick for several decades. They started to gain a new identity as GM's captured import brand for the US market, but it was too little too late.

>>16458038
Same, but they're so damn expensive. And rare too. I bought a Grand Prix GXP instead. Not as great but I still love it.

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>>16457934
Why did they keep Buick and dump Pontiac?

>>16463748
China

>>16457934
>Pontiac

POOR
OLD
NIGGER
THINKS
ITS
A
CADILLAC

>>16463748

>those reused BMW E46 headlights

lol, clever

>>16459222
>I wonder if Pontiac would've gotten this as the G6 if GM hadn't axed them.
No. According to reports, Pontiac was working on an all new line-up when they were axed. The entire line up was to be RWD.
The second gen G6 was going to move to the Alpha platform around 2013.
The Camaro was going to get a sister car using the GTO name.

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>>16463748
Looks about a million times cooler and better than the modern Camaro

>>16461303
>>16461413
Actually Buick had a canceled plan as well. When the B-body Roadmaster was killed off in 1996, Buick tried to bring over the Holden Commodore and Commodore wagon as the new Roadmaster.
It didn't go through, but it could've been great.

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Yes.

>>16463748
>>16463782
This. Chairman Mao used to ride around in a Buick so those chinks love the buick brand. It doesn't even matter because Buick is so "revised" that even though they still exist, it's like they don't.

>>16461223
Either way the 4.9 was/is a terrible engine with no redeeming qualities. If you have one swap it for something that isn't an asthmatic piece of shit

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the LS1 formula firebird hard top was a great car still have mine @ 60k

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>>16467762
By far one of the coolest 90's cars, the Camaro and Firebird looked really menacing and great before the facelift.

Post-facelift Camaro looked like a retarded fish but the Firebird still looked good with the lights down.

>>16461548
I own an intrigue GLS with the 3.5 v6 shortstar engine. It's a fucking great car. Big, comfy, makes decent power (215 HP), quicker than it looks, and is still one of the smoothest handling cars I've driven so far despite being 18 years old, it turns like fucking butter. I take it on the mountain roads a lot and it just flies through the turns with little struggle no matter how fast I go. I really, really wish they made a manual version

>>16469247
the late 4th gen did make the lights better though. the small square lights never quite looked right on the redesigned 4th gen body.

>>16457934
yes, take buick instead

>>16464120

I've seen this car posted dozens of times and i'm wondering what the hell is it suppose to be? looks like any other commuter clapbox of its time. does it have some meme feature i'm unaware of?

>>16469797
I guess that's decent power, by modern standards it's lacking for sure since most modern 3.5+ v6s are making 270-300+ hp.

>>16463812
obviously its going to be something reused i doubt a kit is going to design and produce their own headlights

>>16469868
Nope, it was a shared platform car just like everything else in GMs lineup back then

>>16457934>every few months check out local g8s online
>one actually down the road
>actually stick shift
>top level trim oh shit
>$33,000

Oh my god that's expensive for a 7 year old Pontiac. Looked amazing though.

>tfw will always be a Saturn level poorfag

>>16469868
It's a Pontiac 6000, which was Pontiac's FWD mid-size car of the 1980's.
sister cars include:
Buick Century
Chevrolet Celebrity
Oldsmobile Cutlass Ciera

>>16458844
I unironically love it

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Basking in the Pontiac glory since early '07 over here senpai.

>want to buy V6 firebird for dat 60* V6
>can't find a car that doesn't have T-tops
Why can't I find a straight hardtop car? I don't want to deal with leaky T-tops.

>>16470064
They're out there bro, but if you find a clean t-top car you need subframe connectors the tops are less likely to leak with them.

>>16470045
Don't like the polished shiny wheels, but then again they're super fucking American so I guess that makes it alright.

>>16470143
only 2 in my area. One has rust issues and the other was in a front end accident.

>>16457934
>tfw secretly a firebird guy but had to buy a camaro to keep it a secret from my dad
he's gonna shit bricks when I sell my camaro and roll up inna WS6 one day

>>16470303
>>tfw secretly a firebird guy but had to buy a camaro to keep it a secret from my dad

>HEY SON, ENJOYING THAT CHEVY CAMARO?
>dad I have a confession to make...
>I- I Prefer Pontiacs...
>oh son...
>In fact, I've already ended it with the Camaro and got a Firebird
>WHAT WILL YOUR MOTHER SAY?

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>>16470460
this is literally how it is


I showed him a nice WS6 in the area on cl the other day, $4000 for a low mileage and straight looking firebird.

>hey dad check this one out
>i wish my camaro had that ram hood
>WHAT ARE YOU SOME KIND OF FAGGOT? PONTIAC GOT SHITCANNED FOR A REASON

>>16470466
you gotta be some kind of faggot to want that ugly ass shit

your Dad seems cool as hell

>>16470466
>PONTIAC GOT SHITCANNED FOR A REASON
Yes. Because your dad is a closet fag who wouldn't buy a superior product.

>>16470475
He's just mad that he sold his 69 SS Camaro way back when

>tfw he keeps sending me cl links for 4th gen SS rollers
stop

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At least after their death we got the bring back of a rebadged V8 holden from GM except we'll never get the firechicken
>>16463748
Thank god the company that makes those are fixing the ugliness of the current gen camaros

>>16470475
>muh lights

>>16470485
The SS was shit anyways. I could understand his lament if it was a Z28.
>muh 350!
The 302 in the Z28 made more power and was faster.

>>16470497
It had a 302 in it.

>>16470518
No.
Only the 67-69 Z28 got the 302. It was a homologation special for Trans Am racing, which had a 305 cubic inch displacement limit. So Chevy took a 327 block and put in a 283 crankshaft. This led to the 302, which is known to rev to the moon and won the 68 and 69 Trans Am race series.
67-69 SS models got the 350, which can't rev as high and doesn't make the power of the 302.

>>16470559
cant fuck with short strokes and long rods!!

>>16470559
>dad bought an SS because his fasha and him were big on hot rods and drag races
>has a friend with a Z28 and takes him for a ride
>tears of joy as he hits 10k rpm near cold start no problem
>buys wrecked Z28
>puts a battery in it
this is where I love the story
>driver side door caved in like a wedge
>has to hang his ass off the console area to be able to sit and drive it
>promptly smokes the shit out of the tires and does donuts in the parking lot till the tires are shredded
>into the SS you go

>>16470559
>>16470571
>>16470575
heres a goodie

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oeps18chvC0

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>tfw no retro looking, heavy as fuck, GTO on the Alpha platform.

>>16470591
I dream of putting a fuel injected 302 SBC in a 3rd or 4 gen trans Am using an 86+ 350 block, and an L99 crankshaft to give me the displacement. All LT1 shit minus the optispark.
Then enjoy a high revving monster

>>16470466
I hope he realizes that camaros and firebirds are basically the same car with different styling

>>16457934
Pontiac should have never been cut off. Fuck Buick and their shitty compact SUVs,

>>16470613
Buick isn't even Buick anymore, it's just captive import Opels designed for chinese cucks

>>16470609
on the 4th gen cars, the only interchangeable body panels were the T-tops. Everything else was Camaro or Firebird specific. Oh sure, the 4th gen firebird front end will bolt on a 4th gen Camaro. But the body lines just will not match up.

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>>16470602

>>16470632
those are terrible photoshops. And those a Zeta platform, not Alpha platform.

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>>16470632

>>16470606
I'm currently daily driving a 95 3.8l that I want to swap to a V8. I know it's just a dinky little v6 but the 3800s are pretty sweet still.

It's probably cheaper to just sell it and buy a V8 camaro/firebird but mine is super clean and the t-tops don't leak.

no idea what to put in it, LT-1s are cheap as fuck and LSs are expensive as fuck.

>>16470613
why do they need Buick AND Cadillac? why 2 luxury marques? fucking GM

RIP in peace Pontiac

I drive a Pontiac G6 GT coupe. I love the manumatic option. Gonna buy a jap car soon though.

>>16458340
Kek

>>16463748

Buick was the first pillar of GM

>>16470651
>no idea what to put in it, LT-1s are cheap as fuck and LSs are expensive as fuck.
Build your own over time and slowly gather the needed parts to swap it.
for a 302, You need a 1986+ non-LT block so you can avoid the problematic Opti-spark nonsense. Why a 1986+ block? For the one-piece rear main seal, which is less problematic then the 2 piece.
Then you need the crankshaft from the L99 4.3L V8, which was only used in 1994-1996 Chevrolet Caprice's. Use the connecting rods from the L99 too.
There's your 302. Now top it with LT1 heads, intake, cam, pushrods, and lifters.
Congrats. You have an V8 to swap in that's different from what everyone else does but can still utilize the same aftermarket.

>>16470720

LT1 heads coolant passages are different, it's a reverse flow cooling system.

>>16470732
ah that's right. 5700 Vortec heads then

>>16470720
Honestly why not just go full 350 with decent heads and a cam for a $1400 350-400hp engine

>>16470766
How are the vortec heads compared to the LT heads?

That 302 build sounds pretty fucking cool, it would make a sweet sleeper seeing that my camaro is a base model with no badges or anything like that. I would love to just gradually acquire parts needed rather than try to get everything at once; I simply don't have the funds or spare time/vehicles to make it work.

I mean shit I found a fully 383 stroker with 1500 miles on it for $1500 bucks on cl, I'm sure I could find deals on all the individual parts

>>16470784
Even if I found a cheap Lt-1 ready to go, I'd still need to get at least a k-member and new suspension all around to handle the V8

>>16461849
I just had a 3400 motor blow a headgasket and crack the block simultaneously, those engines have a horrendous design due to bean counting. If you look at the coolant path on the block, and match it up to the coolant path on the head the two orefaces do not match. As a result, there is a flow blockage and over time due to the localized increase in static pressure at the joint coolant works its way through the gasket.

>>16470797
>How are the vortec heads compared to the LT heads?
They don't interchange. Vortec heads are the best flowing factory heads you can get for a 1955-2003 first gen SBC.
LT1s were part of the second gen SBC's. Most parts like the crankshafts will swap over to 1986+ blocks. but anything related to the cooling system or the ignition system won't interchange. The 96+ Vortec heads are essentially LT1 heads but with the water jackets fixed to use on conventional gen 1 small blocks.

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I have a massive hard on for the third gen Trans ams since I'm a lil boy. Can't wait to get one this spring.

>>16470903
I can't find anything on chev forums and whatnot about a 302 in a 4th gen, how come more people don't do this?

>>16470915
Probably because moar cubes = better. Why stop at 302 if you can have 350, 383, or even something like 427?
To someone who doesn't know their history, a big number sounds much more impressive than a 302.

>>16470906
Are you me? I'm getting one in the spring too

>>16470926
...would a turbo 400 hook up to said 302 build?

can I expect minimal cutting/raging at trying to make a 302 fit/work in a 4th gen?

>>16470915
>I can't find anything on chev forums and whatnot about a 302 in a 4th gen, how come more people don't do this?
Because LT1's and 350's are cheap and plentiful.
Destroking an engine is actually a very recent fad since more muscle car guys are discovering the joys of high revving.

Unfortunately in the muscle car scene, more cubic inches means it's more impressive. The 302 is built to rev like a Vtec Honda.

>>16470940
It'll work. Just treat it as a 350. Because unless you tell people it's a 302, they're think it's a 350. All the differences are internal. Anything that will work on a 350 will work on a 302, provided you get the part for the proper rear main seal.
1955-1985 cars used a 2 piece rear main seal that was known for leaking. 1986 have the entire engine block redesigned to use a 1 piece rear main seal that solved the problem.

>>16470964
one last thing; is this smog legal in california?

I'm working with a 95 camaro, so don't I have to have a same year or newer engine to pass smog?

>>16470987
If it's not legal just re swap it when you get it tested

>>16470991
I'd go through the hassle of swapping a stock engine in and out for smog reasons

the thought of a 302 in my camaro gives me the biggest fucking boner

>>16470987
>I'm working with a 95 camaro, so don't I have to have a same year or newer engine to pass smog?
In California, the engine has to be newer than the car for a swap, so it CAN be made smog legal. You just need to use as many off the shelf parts as possible. And cats.
You'd be best off buying a 96-98 Vortec 5700 from a GM truck as it'll have most of what you need, then buy the crank from a 94-96 Caprice 4.3L V8, using the connecting rods from the 4.3L and the pistons from the 5.7L. Just make sure the 350 5.7L is a 4 bolt main and not a 2 bolt main. 4 bolt mains are stonger.

destroking for a higher redline is a very recent thing, and is still in the process of catching on.
http://www.hotrod.com/articles/4-8l-crank-ls3-block-how-to-build-an-8000-rpm-ls-stroker/

>>16471009
I'm pretty sure the V6 camaros are 2 bolt mains, are they not?

>>16471020
The 3.8L is a completely different engine family. All versions use the same number of bolts for the main bearing caps that hold the crankshaft in place

The 350 was available in 2 bolt and 4 bolt configurations, with the 4 bolts being more desirable. More clamping force means it's less likely to break.

>POOR
>OLD
>NIGGER
>THINKS
>ITS
>A
>CADILLAC

ITT: Niggers

>>16471041
Ahh okay, I'm retarded and just looked into the actual difference between 2 and 4 bolt mains, I thought there'd be something apart of my current chassis that would dictate if I got a 2 or 4 bolt main.

>>16470797
If you go with the 4th gen, sure. Those are actually kind of a headache when it comes to the 350 swap.

Third gen however is as close to plug and play as it gets

>>16471073
he already has a 4th gen. A 95 3.8L V6.

>>16471049
>trans am
>nigger car
>not the designated white trashmobile

Why are all shitposters retarded

>>16471078
Missed that. Yeah. He's in for some pain.

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>>16471092

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>>16471057
for reference, more modern engines use 6 bolts per bearing cap.
examples off the top of my head:
GM Ecotec 4 cylinder (2.2L, 2.0L turb0, 2.0L supercharged, 2.4L, and 2.5L)
GM LS V8 (4.8L, 5.3L, 5.7L, 6.0L, 6.2L and 7.0L)

>>16471098
It's a pain in the ass because of where the engine is located. It's halfway under the fucking cowl. THAT'S what makes it a bitch.
See what I mean? This should be what yours looks like.

>>16471114
Oh yeah, mine is exactly like that down to the duct tape sleeve kek. first thing my dad said when we popped the hood was
>didn't know 4th gens were front mids

but hey if it fits im down

>>16471140
Was just doing some research. If you can find a set of LT1 Camaro exhaust manifolds and downpipes with cats, it should bolt right up to a 350-destroker-302. This would help you passing emissions.

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>>16471009
Destroking isn't a recent thing by any stretch of the word- Race guys have been doing it for years, even for shit like the old Pontiac V8s (see the Gray Ghost) that are somewhat neglected by the aftermarket. It hasn't been a big thing on the street because the simplest way to achieve street friendly power for a usable powerband. Shit that has to be wound to the moon with that much reciprocating mass is hard on bearings, main caps and all has to be put together real tight and ends up being a little finnicky for your troubles. Then it also tends to cost more money. It's sort of recently becoming a "thing" because with the internet and ever cheaper and more quality aftermarket, everyone has seen just about everything done before.

>>16471205
any specific block you'd recommend for this? Or does any 86+ 350 block work?

>>16471390
any 86+ 350 block should work.

>>16471403
noice, im bout to head over to my dad's place right now and I'll let him know about the 302 build.

if I can't find a way to make it smog legal i'll just hold on to the 3800 and swap it in every few years for my smog. thanks a bunch mang

>>16471415
any 86+ block so long as it isn't an LT1 block. So no 91-96 Corvette, 93-97 Camaro, 93-97 Firebird, or 94-96 Caprice/Impala blocks, Avoid LT1 blocks like the plague.

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>>16471434
roger that

if this ever happens ill post pictures here

>>16471447
please do.

Not trying to rain on people parades, but this might be harder than it looks, I think the wrist pin is in the wrong place for the 350 pistons to work with the L98 rods.

One way to get pretty good revving would be to find an aluminum 5.3, they came in Z71 option trucks, I think the engine code is L33, then swap the 4.8 internals in, as they share bores and the deck heigth is the same. Then you could use mostly stock stuff like an LS6 cam and habe the power come on at a higher RPM because of the differences in breathing.

Speaking of breathing, it's hard to beat the flow of the LS Cathedral Port heads when using any of the Gen 1-2 small block heads.

To get a good idea of the power/powerbands you can get look up Hot Rod's 4.8 vs 5.3 shootout.

>>16471466
L99 rods will work with 350 pistons. Even if they didn't, the problem is cheap enough. Just order a set of rods for an original DZ302, which BTW is unnecessary. The entire rotating assembly of LT1's is compatible with standard 350 fare.

The GTO is pretty great but I never liked their designs.

Those nostril things were hideous.

>>16471490

I think the rods are OK, it's the wrist pin heigth in the pistons I think was off, still you're right in its a cheap fix, get some hypereutectic pistons with the correct wrist pin location and hope that nodular crank doesn't crack.

I know GM did exactly this to show off the LT1's when they first introduced them, but I'll be damned if I can find the magazine article about it anywhere.

>>16459222
Replacement G6 was a pontiac version of the ATS.

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>>16469247
Fuck I want T-Tops and the Ram-Air hood...

>>16461223
The turbo was rated at 210hp. Non turbo 301s were either 140hp for the 2bbl, or 150hp with the quadrajet. I think the base model Firebird actually used the Buick 231 V6 at 100hp.

>>16465828
Yeah, it's a pretty bad engine. It runs out of breath around 4500 rpm and is known for easily grenading itself. The upside is that a car shipped with one is already set up correctly (battery/starter/transmission) so that a larger Pontiac engine will drop right in.

They can be built up but it is all big money and homebrew work. The limiting factor is usually the flimsy crank which hearsay says fails around 250hp. With minimal other work a T301 can have its boost pushed up a few pounds. Other mods that also apply to the non-turbo engine are swapping out the exhaust manifolds for the only headers that'll fit (Hooker SuperComp #4111), flowbench and port the heads to at least bring them up to "typical Pontiac" CFM numbers, cut down a Torker II intake to get rid of the awful original 4bbl intake, swap to a serpentine belt, and get rid of as many belt-driven accessories (water pump) for electric-driven substitutes. Blocks cast in 1980+ have a bit more material and are more rigid than 77-79 blocks. An RV cam is recommended for near-baseline 301s, but if you get crazy with the mods then maybe something bigger can be used. Maybe look into one of those throttlebody computerized fuel injection systems, or go multiport conversion on the intake if money is no object. Maybe figure out how to get a roller cam in there.

There's at least one guy (tjs44) who built a 383 stroker using the 326 crank and 301 block about 4 years ago. He spent over $10k creating a 425hp mill. So it can be done but the result is a very special snowflake.

t. 301 owner

>>16471084
no thats the 3rd gen camaro

>>16457934
I DO ;_;

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Third gen firebirds are life.

>>16458146
>mfw someone I know has two dead Grand prix's in his driveway and dailys a Sunfire now

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>>16472716

>>16472726
More interested in that turd gen shooting brake

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>>16472726

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>>16472740

>>16457934
no. i had a grand prix and it was the biggest piece of shit

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>>16472747

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>>16470064
I've been trying to find a third gen firebird with a 2.8 or 3.1 with Ttops and a 5speed for a while. Basically a car with the only option being the Ttops and maybe AC. Maybe I should try to find a fourth gen 3.4, but the third gen is my favorite car that I'll ever actually be able to afford.

>>16472822
I've been looking for a 2.8, 3.1, or 3.4 third or fourth gen with the hard top and 5 speed manual. just fucking impossible. They seem to all be T-top cars.

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>>16472863
http://www.kijiji.ca/v-cars-trucks/barrie/1985-pontiac-firebird-other/1223602978?enableSearchNavigationFlag=true
This is the only V6 Ttop car in ontario right now. It used to be listed for $600, and I could tow it home with my new found AAA plus, but there's just something about this car that seams like a really bad idea. Missed out on a 1989 Ttop 5.0 TBI 5Spd a couple weeks ago for $1800 since I didn't get payed till a few days after he sold it. Guess I'll just have to keep driving my LA1 3.4 Impala with a Trush welded muffler sitting in my trunk waiting.

http://www.kijiji.ca/v-cars-trucks/sault-ste-marie/1988-pontiac-firebird-for-sale/1220084848?enableSearchNavigationFlag=true
http://www.kijiji.ca/v-cars-trucks/barrie/1991-pontiac-firebird-need-gone-asap/1230192980?enableSearchNavigationFlag=true

Both of these are V6 hard top cars. I remember there being a V6 hard top 5Spd Camaro for sale around here a few months ago. There was a bunch of computer hardware sitting on the hood so I offered him a bunch of my old junk for trade but he had already sold it.

>tfw your brother had a red 91 Sunbird convertible and the engine died
JUST

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>>16457934
more and more

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>>16472950
Fuck, forgot pic.

Why are Grand Prixs a shit? There are like a dozen on my local cl at any given time, almost always under $1000. Never seen one that has been maintained though

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>>16472983
Because people drive them into the ground and then coolant starts pissing out of the engine or the transmission finally decides to die. Or important parts of the unibody completely rust out and it can't pass a safety anymore like pic related. If you actually maintain a third generation Wbody car they tend to resell for $4000-$8000.

>>16472863
>>16472901
Wait, you guys are having trouble finding a V6 third gen with no t tops? Where are you located? Check Philadelphia cl, there's always a fuck ton.

>>16473052
I'm in Connecticut. I'm guessing he's in Canada from the Kijiji links. We're both in the rust belt which makes it hard

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>>16473085
Yeah I'm just east of Toronto. I've looked through the Michigan and Ohio craigslist before and the market is pretty much the same.

>that imgur file name

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I know W-Bodys get alot of shit for good reason but they can be fantastic cars if you can get one in good condition with no rust and a supercharger. Mine has over 185k and is in great shape. I have no doubt it will go over 250k.

>>16473266
I just want a W Body Regal GS

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>>16473316
My buddy has one. He has it running E85 and a shit ton of other mods. Beautiful cars

>>16473335
So simple
Yet so elegant
I love them even with their shitty firing order
Or as Strayans say mang mang mang

>>16473352
That and the tranny really are their only flaws. And the pros outweigh the cons most of the time anyway considering how plentiful and cheap they are to make fast. Plus they are comfy, especially the Regals

>>16473352
With a good cam they actually sound amazing at idle

>>16473373
They built the 04+ trans a lot better apparently

>>16473373
>That and the tranny really are their only flaws.
except the 3800 is a shit engine design. They're only worth any attention when boosted and even then they're not at impressive. It's overly heavy and full of engineering band-aids to cover up a shit design. They're also shit at making power.

>>16473374
no they don't

>>16473374
>at idle
But that's not where I want it to sound amazing

But it doesn't matter I live the comfiness I love the reliability (as long as the intake manifold gaskets hold and the tranny doesn't grenade) and I love the tuning capability

>>16473388
Yeah they do

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>>16473374
Hell at idle my stock 04 sounds bretty good. A flowmaster/borla will make it sound amazing at idle too. The S/C can usually make up for the rasp at higher revs

>>16473388
Nice shitposting. The 3800 platform is a fantastic engine to work with. Especially if you wanna go fast on a budget

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>baby car with 4t65e, slowly rolling onto 50% throttle till flow of traffic
>trans constantly slips
>start to drive as if throttle is on/off switch
>trans barely ever slips now even if driving normally
???

My only plans for my Impala is to put on the bigger rear sway bar from a junk yard when I get around to replacing the sway bar links and going through the entire braking system.

>>16473374
>>16473414
Since someone mentioned earlier in this thread that the Intrigue handled admirably on curves, and since the Regal GS is a W Body, does that mean that the Regal GS has the same handling prowess as the Intrigue?

>>16473414
Oh yeah, the S/C totally makes up for the rasp when you get going. Especially the gen v

>>16473388
>>16473407
Why are people arguing over a Buick engine in a Pontiac thread?

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>>16473407
no they don't

>>16473414
it's shit from a design standpoint. It's got aftermarket support.
woo.
still a shit engine. With the same amount of attention, any of the 60* V6's will outperform it. It doesn't make enough power to justify the displacement.

>my -3800- sounds good
time to get your hearing checked. You may need a hearing aid... or better taste

>>16473431
>justify the displacement
Nigger what are you on

>>16473429
because retards think aftermarket support = good design.
The Toyota 1MZ-FE is a fantastic engine design, but it has no support whatsoever.

>>16473443
It was replaced, thankfully, by a 3.6L making 260 HP. then 300 HP, and recently 330+ HP. And all without touching a supercharger.
The 3800 is shit for performance. The only reason it has any support at all is it was used in interesting cars.

>>16472738
Oh shit that's cool.

I want one.

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>>16473465
There's these too

>>16473462
>The 3800 is shit for performance
On its own, sure. But with the supercharger it could easily make 350+whp

>>16473493
>needing a blower to make 350 HP when you have 3.8L of displacement.
It's shit.

>>16473444
>>16473431
This guy is hilarious

>>16473462
Ok. So what if you want to make more power then? The amount of money/effort to make more power is stupid when you compare the two. These cars are usually never left unmodded for good reason

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Wasn't there like a Formula type open wheel racing series featuring some built up aussie spec 3800 engines?

>>16473503
It's not like it's a fucking DOHC design that uses VVT or di or anything like the fucking LFX does that you're comparing it to

It's a 40-50 year old design that unfortunately never got the advance ya that were in the newer OHV V6s like the 3.9, in fact if the 3800 were given said improvements and had an Eaton blower, they would have been making 350+ out of the factory, or even better would have been turned and making over 400+

>>16473503
The ls1 had 5.7l and made the same amount of power retard

>>16473540
*Turbo'd

>>16473519
>So what if you want to make more power then?
DOHC conversion.
see:
>>16473525

>>16473540
>It's not like it's a fucking DOHC design
It should be.

>>16473547
yes, but the LS1 is capable of 100 HP per liter while N/A. Such a feat is a pipe dream for a 3800.

>>16473562
>it should be
A little late for that now don't you think? The first thing that should have been changed was the firing order, the power the engine was making, the reliability that it had, and the mileage it got were very good for the time period it was in

>>16473562
>The amount of money required to engineer new DOHC heads compared to bolt ons for a fraction of the price and making more power.

Not really sure where your argument is going my man. It's pretty shit so far. You still have yet to prove that these are shit engines

>>16473562
Hp/liter isn't the only thing that makes an engine good though. The 3800 was insanely reliable and got decent gas mileage for its time

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>>16473597
>>16473583
>A little late for that now don't you think?
no. Especially considering Buick themselves had a prototype made up in the mid-1980's.

>>16473629
I agree. It's reliable and got decent mileage. Still shit at making power.

>>16473638
Yes, it is. Can you please link me to where I can buy a full DOHC conversion for my car? Why the fuck would anyone want that anyway. Just more shit to break down and take away from its reliability meme

>>16473681
honestly, it'd be cheaper to swap in an engine with a decent design than trying to add another band-aid to the 3800.
Like the 60* engines.

>>16473713
It'd be cheaper to grow a pair and use the blower designed for it

>>16473733
oh look. advocating a band-aid. You know that won't stop the nuclear reactor from leaking right?

>>16473742
What the fuck are you talking about? How is a supercharger a "band aid?"

>>16473765
Don't respond

>>16458844
honestly the buick rendevous is uglier

>>16458844
Yeah, and the faggot who made it failed upwards and designed the current 'vettes. There are uglier SUVs on the road now anyway.

>>16473765
heartbreaker finally learned to take his trip off when he's shitposting about the 3800.

>>16467762
That's not an LS1 bird. That's an LT

>>16470668
because Cadillacs sell like hotcakes in NA and Buicks sell like clean water in China.