Timing Belts

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>>16404858
Timing gears best. Never need to touch them and they have a very nice cam wirr.

>>16404858
chains were noisier and sound deadening technology hadn't improved to the point where you were unable to hear it.
GM used chains forever and it was one of the reasons reviewers said their engines felt less refined than the competition.
Belts were much quieter.

That's really the difference excluding the chain's obviously superior durability.

>>16404896
Yup this is exactly it.

>>16405005
Yeah you guys are right, they are loud as fuck, my uncle's G35 coupe makes a terrible chain rattling noise but it shuts up when when the oil pressure comes.

>>16405021
That's because his tensioner/guides are fucked and need to be replaced, not because chains are loud.

>>16405043
It only does it for half a second or so on a cold startup, he really does need to maintain his shit, it has an oil leak from somewhere when parked for a while but it's still a beast and sounds good.

>>16405055
Yeah, that's the exact symptom. It's worn out, so on startup it rattles against metal before it gets tension. Will definitely destroy the chain.

>>16404858
>I'd pay it to not have to replace it every 100,000 miles.
I reckon I could design a chain conversion kit for ~5-10k.
Do you do paypal?

>>16404875
enjoy your horrible bottom end harmonics

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Eliminate it then

>>16404858

>were

I literally put one on a Renault Clio about twelve hours ago

typical yank

>timing belts are too hard
>shifting gears is too hard
>my seats are too small

>>16405357
Go be European somewhere else.

>>16405357
>timing belts are too hard
clearly you've never had a hungry engine
fiat sohc loves to eat valves and belts in haste

>>16405080
No it's not you fucking sperg. There's no tension because it's running low on oil.

>>16405080
>Will definitely destroy the chain.
I'd be more worried about timing, oil pump, guides, block, etc. Fuck the chain, that's (usually) the least of your worries. But shavings in the oil pump? Bad mojo.

>>16405381
From experience with BMW M62 (timing chain and tensioner) - You're retarded.

If the tensioner can't fill because the spring is worn, then the chain will slap around, no matter what the oil level is.

http://www.meeknet.co.uk/E31/BMW_M60_M62_M62TU_Engine_Scary_Noises.html

Slapping, rattling and other scary noises during a cold-start

"The timing-chain tensioner shown above works in a similar way to the hydraulic lifters, the internal spring provides enough pressure to move
the piston outwards and allow oil into the cylinder. It is not the spring tension that provides pressure on the timing-chain guide, it is the
hydraulic action that holds the piston in a fixed position."

From experience with BMW M62 (timing chain and tensioner)

My only experience was on my v6 frontier. Can't say I enjoyed it. Had to remove radiator then everything off the front of the engine then the covers. It was cheap but still an all day affair. It's always been quite noisy as well. Sounds like I have a supercharger.

>>16404858
I don't get why they're an issue desu, get it replaced when it needs doing and you'll never have any problems.

>>16405126
This. I hope Free Valve will be in more affordable cars soon.

Is there any actual evidence of chains destroying engine components when they snap or is it just lore?

I know supercharger chains will and that's why they are not used.


My motorcycle uses geared cams, like most i guess.

>sounds like it's supercharged at low rpms

>>16405788
>Is there any actual evidence of chains destroying engine components when they snap or is it just lore?
There was an episode of All Girls Garage where they were working on an Ecotec Chevy Cavalier that had the timing chain fuck up, which bent the valves and destroyed the head (season 1, episode 9)
Basically the same thing that happens when a timing belt snaps.
Not a myth. Actually happens.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dsNZzBt1ZpQ

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>>16405126
>50 years ahead of you

>>16404858
There is literally nothing wrong with timing belts. If you're not a troglodyte idiot you'll have your car serviced once every 100,000mi and have it changed.

>>16405788
VW TSI engines that have timing chains tend to lenghten because they used shitty oil and the chain tensioner was oil pressure operated so the chain might damage the engine

But i mean like if a timing chain were to snap, would it cut some wires around the engine or knock a sensor out of place or something?

>>16405861
generally no. They always have a metal covering of some sort to prevent that

>>16405798
At least a dying timing chain makes noise when its starting to fail, unlike the silent death of a belt.

>>16405829
Baby nissan engines too, the belt gets longer as it wears and the cam and crank sensor no longer correlate and it bounces revs at idle like you wouldn't believe.

>>16405861
Timing chains are sealed inside the engine because they run in engine oil. No escape for them.

>>16405869
hurr, I meant nissan chains not belts.

>>16405361
Lol

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>>16404858
>Timing belt replacement: $20
>installation: $150~300
>Timing Chain replacement: $1500+
>Installation: $900+

>>16404858
>replacing timing belts every 100 miles.

You do know you're supposed to replace them every 40k or less LOL

>>16406337
depends on the car. My old Chevy Monte Carlo specified every 60k, and my step-mom's Toyota Avalon specified every 90k. My sister's old Chrysler Concorde stated every 100k.

>>16406310
>>Timing Chain replacement: $1500+
>>Installation: $900+
>implying $2400 to replace a timing chain
Are you high?

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>>16406347
>100k on one belt
the horror

I'd be scared to drive a car that has more than 50k on one belt tb.h

>>16406337
honda recommends 105k miles

40k is subaru?

>>16406363
Subaru recommends 100k as well

>>16406362
welp. You're retarded then.
>implying you know more than the fucking engineers.

>>16404875
They're durable yes, but they sound like shit. They sound like driving a car with a bad power steering pump

>>16406310
Cost me £90 to do my chain
£60 for febi bilstein chain, the rest for the timing tools

>anime poster
figures

>>16404858
Timing belts are better. You change them every 75-100k like clockwork. It doesn't matter if the oil was changed on time and the car was designed to have it changed unlike some cars with chains.

>>16404858
Belts are superior to chains, in my opinion. Big deal, you have to replace it every 100k miles. It's not that hard.

You want to know what its like to replace a chain tensioner? Chains need to be replaced too eventually

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>>16406554
>You want to know what its like to replace a chain tensioner?

I know how, unscrew it and put the new one in, literally a 5 min job.

>>16406369

>the fucking engineers.

You ever tried working with an engineer?

>we need x here, to send y to the unit
>okay, here's this, which will take y and send out x, will that work?
>sure!
>orders $10k component
>oh wait, that's the wrong one, that won't work
>turns out we need xy here, to send e to the unit, so the unit can backfeed with f to the component
>they don't make that
>well that's what we need
>does the unit have inputs for that?
>we don't know, just get it here

I mean, if you're looking to get a toaster designed or something, sure, they're probably great people for that. But I swear to god, it takes them 10 tries to figure out a system that works after the project is 2/3 of the way done.

>>16406580
Look, the intern is butthurt that his most important job is to get coffee.

>>16405080
>>16405055
Not necessarily. Depends on the engine. VW TSI engines with chain usually have half a second of bad noise until it gets oiled properly. It's normal.

But VW also says up until 3-4 seconds of noise is normal. So who knows.

>>16405788
When the chain snaps it will of course damage the engine? The timing will be no more and then the pistons will smash into the valves. I suppose it's possible for the chain to fall down into the oilpump chain and mess that up as well.

>>16406603

More that the sparky is upset the Mech E. can't differentiate between delta and wye, so now I have to haul a 400 lb transformer back out of the basement and put a new one in. Not out of my pocket though, so I guess it could be worse.

>>16406554
Car producers today say the chain will be functional for the duration of the car's lifespan. What they don't tell you is that the manufacturer expects the car to live for nothing more than 250 000 kilometers. This is why we have bullshit like no-change gear oil and stuff like that.

But if you want your car to go 500k, then it definitely needs changing.

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>>16404875

1hz has a belt

>>16406681
That was the first pic I found. My motorcycle has gears and was fucking great

>>16406577
Only if your car was designed by someone who gave a shit about serviceability. Modern timing chain systems are a CLUSTERFUCK

With a lot of the modern DOHC engines there isn't a lot of difference between having a belt or a chain. Your still going to have to change the thing around 100k miles either due to chain stretch or the belt wear. Whether an chain or belt is best really depends on how the engine is laid out.

Trying to replace the chain on an audi 4.2 v8 is a nightmare that requires pulling the whole engine out because it's on the backside of the motor, but replacing the belt on a DOHC subaru engine is pretty easy so long as you have the tool to hold the right side cams in place and can be done in less then 2 hours.

>>16404858
>Why the fuck were these used for so long?
Quieter and cheaper

>>16405798
>All Girls Garage
What a complete joke of a show.

>>16406638
>Using a mechanical engineer when you needed an electrical engineer
You should all be fired.

>>16404858
When Chains break. it could break shit in your bay

>>16407445
Shouldn't they be shut down for discrimination?

>>16404858
>He wants bicycle technology turning his cams

>>16404875
what is this from?

never heard of timing gears

>>16410902
race cars occasionally get converted to them. They're more reliable than belts or chains but holy shit are they loud.

>>16410905
I always worry about the belt snapping when I see a 2JZ meme engine spinning at 9000 RPM.

>>16404875
>>16406380
would it be possible to swap out the fan belt on a diesel with a gear set up?

i like the sound, and think it would be great if it overlapped my little 4 cylinders natural thump.

>>16406580
>it takes them 10 tries to figure out a system that works after the project is 2/3 of the way done.

literally every engineering project ever. engineering is iteration and educated guess work.

>guys buy our car with timing chain, it will last forever
>your engine exploded after 70k miles? lol tough luck pal, looks like you got a lemon. that'll be 10 grand plus tips, sir.

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>decide to do an overdue timing belt on my civic (at 120k)
>this should be easy
>ended up taking all 3 belts off and the harmonic balancer
>had to remove 2 engine mounts and jack up the engine
>had to whip up a 7ft breaker bar for the bolt off the crankshaft
>sat on the end of the bar and nothing budged
>600ft/lb impact guns wouldn't touch it
>new to wrenching and it took me 2-3 days
>get everything re-assembled
>off by a tooth
If I could get a chain or gears and never have to maintain them beyond a tensioner that would be great

>>16404858
Literally the only purpose of belts and chains is to generate servicing costs.
Gears are best.

>muh noise!
What are helical gears?

>muh cost!
The car comes with a box full of gears, but adding a few extra idler gears is now too expensive?

>muh complexity!?
So a few idler gears sitting on short axles in the engine is more complex than the fuckery of oil pressurised tensioners, multiple guides and sprockets?

>>16404875
>Never need to touch them
They'll wear and require adjustment of some kind in OHC applications, because of how many damn gears you need to run from the crank to the cam.

>>16404858
Chains cost more, are noisier, prone to stretching, the guides wear out, and poor lubrication (in shitboxes who see an oil change once every ~20,000 miles) will make all that even worse.

Timing belts are quiet, cheap to manufacture, don't require any kind of lubrication, hell they even weigh less. It's easier to engineer a good timing belt than a timing chain.

Sure, you have to change them every so often, but most of them aren't too bad to do - they're designed to be replaced, unlike the chains, guides, and tensioners that will typically require a lot more fucking around to replace.

Chains wear out, they just take more time to.

>>16405357
No one cares Ahmed.

>>16415392
>wear out
about the same time the entire fucking engine is worn out, yes.
>poor lubrication
see above
>noisier
fair observation
>cost more
yes

>Chains wear out, they just take more time to.

Oh.

>>16406577
You've never worked on a 2.2 ecotec before have you?

>>16415425
>about the same time the entire fucking engine is worn out
You'd be surprised, most of the older timing chain engines I've seen die were because of a timing failure. Skipping a few teeth because the chain is stretched, or the guides wear out.

Hell, just look at the GM 3.6L V6, those things bring engine lights on at 90,000 kms because the chains stretch so damn much.

>>16415503
>Hell, just look at the GM 3.6L V6, those things bring engine lights on at 90,000 kms because the chains stretch so damn much.
They fixed the problem in 2009.

>>16415517
Yes, it's just an example highlighting the difficulty that manufacturers have with chains, and why they don't use them on every single engine.

Hell, VW and Renault have already moved on to a new technology called 'timing belt in oil', which is exactly what it says on the tin.

Timing belts, submersed in engine oil. Quieter, more efficient, and the longevity is (supposedly) on par with timing chains.

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>>16415392
My engine is up to 80k KMs without touching them, considering it revs up to about 19K they are very hardy. However it only needs a few gears to transfer the power up as its a fucking tiny engine

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>>16415703
Ah, yeah, I don't know jack about bike engines, I was only speaking from experience on car engines. Pic related.

>>16415713
Holy shit, what engine is this? I am fully erect just looking at it

>>16415721
Nissan L-block I think, maybe an L28?

>>16406622
>VW also say
>Trusting anything that comes from VAG

>>16415430
Yeah, same type of tensioner as the bmw one I posted.
Although you have to unspring it before fitting it if you don't want to take the valve cover off.

>>16405099
why would they alter harmonics? gears aren't inherently unbalanced.