Why can't America design a cheap sports car? I mean apart

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op first you need to define a good sports car.

>>15763323

>Why can't America design a sports car?

>>15763331
only Japan has gotten this right

>MR2
>Miata
>FR-S
etc

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>>15763342
they did once, but never tried again.

>>15763393
what about the fiat miata?

>>15763323
>Why can't America design a cheap sports car?
They can. They're more than capable of it. But they won't. The end result would be too small to sell very well and wouldn't be worth the investment cost

>>15763393
>>Miata
Literally copied the spirit of the old British roadsters.

>>15763394
op said cheap. derp

>>15763394

wasn't that 85% Ford parts or something?

>>15763406

for a better price and better reliability

>>15763405
US companies could pour billions of dollars into R&D and you would get a great car that sells well everywhere but the US

>>15763323
Mustang, Camaro, Corvette, Sky Redline, GTO, Hellcat

>>15763415
>Saleen, a Ford tuner
>isn't that 85% Ford?

/o/.

>>15763393
>FR-S
>Good sports car
HAHAHAHAHAHA

>>15763415
Only the engine is Ford

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>>15763415
worked in a pantera?
sunbeam tiger
cobra
all good sports cars

>>15763394
>cheap sports car
>$400K

>>15763406
Except better and they actually made it. What's USA's excuse?

>Fiero

>>15763393
>FR-S
>380,000,000,000 tons
>20 hp N/A engine
>half a city block wide

>sports car

>>15763426
exactly the point

>>15763439

Miata has the market share state side. Why bother jumping into to such a limited sales base? So people will troll less online?

>Why doesnt Europe have high horsepower v8 on-ramp-allstars for cheap?

>>15763323
They exist

Cobalt SS
Fusion GT
Buick LeSabre w/sc
Mustang V6
Camaro V6
LeMans
Fiesta Rally

A lot of these are as shitty(some even shittier[looking at you LeMans]) as a FR-S, but they were cheap "sports" cars for their time.

>>15763463
>Fiesta Rally
>Built by Ford of Europe

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>>15763323
Sorry OP, I prefer the Saturn

>>15763448
>only 2800lb

that's around half what a Mustang weighs

>>15763459
What kind of argument is that?

>why bother, Toyota has sedan sales locked up
>why bother, Porsche has sports car sales locked up
>why bother, BMW has lux sedan sales locked up

>>15763474

Are you a 50 year old woman?

>>15763471
also I should add
>built for Ford World Rally Team which is based in the UK with a British team principle
>all drivers have been European except for a Kenyan, Emirati and New Zealander

>>15763477

No one said new Mustangs aren’t pigfat

>>15763463

>Commuter box with spoiler and bodykit
>fish faced commuter sedan with high-strung grenade engine
>ultimate "drive to the doctor for blood work" mobile
>im
>plying
>200 HP out of a 400CID V8
>not even american

>>15763402
It's still a Japanese car with a bodykit from fiat.

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80s Shelbies?

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>>15763463
>Buick LeSabre
>4,000lb
>under 200bhp

I guess Americans have a strange definition of "sports car".

Fiero
Corvair
Corvette
Solstice/Sky

fwd cant be a sports car
neither can anything with more than 2 seats

>>15763483
The only people I've seen driving the Pontiacs have been 50 year old women, while the only people I've met with a Saturn Sky (not even a Redline) was a 60 year old man

>>15763508
>known for catching on fire
>known for being unsafe at any speed
>leaf springs
>neither brand even exists anymore, 3000lb for a 2-seater compact roadster

>>15763481

Its an argument because they would have to dump quite a bit of R & D into it with little chance of success.

They just cant do cheap for some reason. Even the focus rs is 40k. A mustang with a proper v8 sets you back at least that especially if you buy it with any kind of options.

They just seem obcessed with not taking risks and just building faster versions of existing platforms then selling them at a premium. Im just assuming theyre doing it because a shit load of market research says so and not because they want to troll\confuse internet forums

>>15763394
Supercar, not sportscar.

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Sports catfish

>>15763429
>Mustang
Ponycar
>Camaro
Ponycar
>Corvette
Grand Tourer
>GTO
Muscle car
>Hellcat
Muscle car

Only the Sky is a true
sportscar.

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>>15763463
>LeMans
>5.7L V8
>200hp
>looks like this

I see what you mean, this must have been the "glory days" that domestic car fans wax poetic about. An MX-5 has nothing on this

>>15763477
>Max curb of Mustang 3800lbs
>3800/2=1900lbs

>>15763525
>Its an argument because they would have to dump quite a bit of R & D into it with little chance of success.

If it was actually "good" then why is it a little chance of success? How much money is Ford pouring into the GT and Chevy into the new mid engined Vette? How come Toyota and Subaru can dump the money but the "Big Three" can't?

>>15763415
Mostly the engine (a twinturbo 427 SBF). Ford didn't have a midengined chassis or anything Saleen could back then, so it's probably only 50-60% Ferd.

>>15763463
>Cobalt SS
Not a sportscar. Sporty coupe.
>Fusion GT
Hopped up sedan.
>Buick LeSabre w/sc
Hopped up sedan
>Mustang V6
Could've had a V8. Also, ponycar.
>Camaro V6
Could've had a V8. Also, ponycar.
>LeMans
No, just, no.
>Fiesta Rally
Euro Ford.

>>15763525
>cant do cheap for some reason

I think it's because they're not very smart. The Asians seem to figure it out time and time again.

>>15763498
FWD and lolcan'tturn.

Nice cars, but no sportscars. The 80's version of a hot hatch.

>>15763508
>Fiero
True. Although some engine outputs were pathetic (but so were the miata's).
>Corvair
No. Compact commuter.
>Corvette
Grand Tourer.
>Solstice/Sky
True.

>>15763546
>difference between 3800 and 2800 is one ton
>one tonne = 2200lb

American math education, everyone

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>>15763474
>>15763323
>>15763573
>>15763534
Why does the car on the left weigh 550lb-700lb less than the car on the right? Is that the best that GM could do?

>>15763519
Give me any downside to transverse fibreglass leafsprings except that they're an old design.

>Coil spring patented in 1763
>Leaf spring invented 1804

>Coil springs first appeared on a production vehicle in 1906 in the Brush Runabout made by the Brush Motor Company.
>Fibreglass leaf springs first used in the C4 (1984)

>>15763553

Rising tide raises all boats argument there. Research and tech developed for bleeding edge super cars trickles down to the entire line up over time. It also a status symbol and something to make posters with so little jimmy is more likely to stop by a ford/dodge/chev dealership when he goes to buy a new car.

They must feel that the market for a low cost sports coupe is more or less satisfied and when it comes to risk reward its a lot easier to break an investment like that into straight black and white dollars and cents. Where as something like a ford gt or turning the corvette into a rocket ship or unleashing a nearly undrivable hellcat tends to offer more benefits to the company that arent so easly tracked and as such can be sold as a "big idea".

Tl;dr- Old thinking and a fear to make a mistake

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>>15763532
Ponycar.

>>15763594
>Why does the car on the left weigh 550lb-700lb less than the car on the right?
Because Mazda purposely designed the N platform

Meanwhile at GM, they slapped some parts from a bin together.

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>>15763606
>downside to leafsprings

>>15763614
Hyundai has the balls to make a sports (or sporty) car from scratch but GM, Ford and Chrysler are too chickenshit.

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>>15763594
Because it's faster :^)

>>15763576
Are you retarded? I'm asking out of geniune curiosity, cause there was literally never a mention of tons in the conversation.

>>15763553

Those other automakers do it because asia. Also they cater to other european markets that generally enjoy smaller vehicles and have for some time. So with so much of their lineup in that price range and size when they decided to add horsepower into the mix you get the cars american car companies are too scared to or simply not interested in making.

>>15763630
Correlation does not equal causation. There is no indication those leafsprings caused the accident - there's plenty of other GM parts that could have caused that accident.

I'll move the goalpost a bit:
>Give me any downside to transverse fibreglass leafsprings (when not being designed by General MartShart) except that they're an old design.

>>15763393
S2k
NXT
Niggers forget all about Honda

>>15763650
The Solstice is a floaty boat and nowhere near the Miata in terms of actually being fun

>>15763645

100% true and it was a pretty good first attempt. Genesis sell like shit though. And their redesign for the new g badge is looking like its going to be a 50k+ twin turbo. So even they'll be out of the mix. They are beefing up the elantra with a new turbo sport modle and the veloster might get some love. Who knows. As much as i like the gennys its hard to call them a success as far as sales or profit go

>>15763658
Are domestic brands uninterested in selling to yuros and asians? Sounds retarded desu

>>15763665
S2000 is a price category above
NSX is several categories above
This thread is about cheap cars

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>>15763693
I just think it's funny that the Koreans can mess around and build what they want but the Big Three are too scared. How times have changed.

>>15763686
keep thinking that. Meanwhile, the Japanese are wishing GM sold the Solstice over there.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6nV12oMIm4

>>15763686
I'm willing to bet that the Sky/Solstice is better than the Miata in everything besides curb weight

>>15763695

They dont really have good penetration outside of a few specific markets. That might be because they dont offer a wide enough variety of platforms... Meh. Who knows.

>>15763730

It'll have trouble shaking the old womans sports car image

because american companies are more interested in profit with shitty cars rather than profit with good cars

it's like the automotive equivalent of mcdonalds

>>15763723
I've driven them, that's my subjective opinion. You can really feel the weight transfer in the Sky vs the Miata. I'm not a world-class Japanese race car driver though and just drove them around twisty roads.

>>15763730
Well Pontiac and Saturn no longer even exist as brands so the Miata is better in that regard

>>15763781
Toyota doesn't exactly set the world on fire with the Camry and Corolla either, but they still make the GT86/FR-S and various neat Lexuses

>>15763774
Just use it to get some of that milf pussy

>>15763791
limited production :^)

>>15763797
>but they still make the GT86/FR-S
Those are built by Subaru.

>>15763447
if they gave it a 3800sc from factory and got more time to fine tune the suspension then it might be considered "good".

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>>15763323
But we did.

>>15763862
That was a previous-gen Mercedes SLK when it came out.

>>15763871

then what about the mustang/corvette

>>15763904
Mustang is a ponycar, Corvette is a Grand Tourer.

>>15763650
>no track times to compare
into the trash it goes

>>15763926
You could just refer to >>15763723
>wasnt even the turbocharged model

>>15763924
Corvette is also not cheap

>>15763323
>Why won't America design a cheap sports car?
ftfy

because we're still in recession mode. no time for fun unless you have a muscle car, econoboxes rule.

>>15763471
>>15763485
You sound autistic

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beep beep

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What up

>>15764027
Not a sportscar. A sort of convertible minicar (compared to contemporary cars in the USA)

>>15764031
Not a production car.

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>>15764054
Then no one on earth has made a sports car. A sports car does not exist as of yet

>>15764088
Miata.
Original Italian spiders.
Original British roadsters

Stuff like that are clearly sportscars. The Crosley is not, and the 818 is not an American-made production car.

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>>15764103
But those are a bunch of convertible mini cars of sorts

>>15764133
The Crosley was designed from the ground up as an economy vehicle, meant to salvage the company as it had bought the rights to the CoBra engine, demand for which plummeted after the end of WW2.

All of those sportscars I mentioned never began as economy cars. There's a completely different goal altogether.

>>15764133
>>15764165
Also, compare a Crosley to the average '49 USDM car. Now compare a Miata to the average 1990 JDM car, and those Brit and Itak roadsters to the average car back then.

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>>15764165
How's it feel that one of your "sports cars" gets btfo by something meant as an economy car

>>15764198
Sports cars aren't always performance cars.

>>15763502
>under 200
>supercharged
Are you retarded? go to wikipedia and look up the 3800

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>>15764165
Sounds like they reached the same conclusion. A cheap, fuel efficient mini car that which demand died off with in the end.
>>15764171
All mini cars in comparison

>>15763817
Toyota forked over quite a bit of cash and time into R&D

>>15763988
>recession
>Hellcat
>infinite Mustangs and Camaros
>new Vettes every other week
>Ford GT
>mid engined Corvette supercar in the works

The Monza

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>>15764303

>>15764315
>>15764303
2 seats to many, malaise-era. It's a subcompact, not a sportscar.

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>>15764326
it had a v8
it was more like a mini camaro

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>>15764337
im not sure it was a sports car. maybe it was.

>>15763323
Why would they when they can sell overpriced pigfat v6 shitboxes for 30k+. If people would stop buying the shit they make, they would be forced to adapt. Brand loyalty is a hell of a thing.

>>15763323
You sound like you hate america. And if you do then why do you care about getting an american car?

>>15764470
i dont think he sounds like he hates America. more like he is disappointed by the auto industry.

>>15764470
>dislike Pontiac Solstice
>hates America

American education at work

>>15764302
>Hellcat

Lmao...700hp, but that absolute bloated curb weight. This car scored like utter shit on a skid pad; why even have a steering wheel in it? The faglords who buy this thing don't know how to drive anyways.

>>15763323
I've always thought they could if they decided to end the pony cars and their "muh heritage" but I think they're sitting too comfy where they're at.

My idea was a compromise and build a lightweight nimble dedicated sports car with a platform that's easy to stretch into a pony car. That way they share the costs without really having to compromise. Give the little sporty car a midship ecoboost V6 and the mustang could be exclusively v8 for boomers who just want to smoke tires.

The problem currently is the pony cars are too much of a cash cow that they don't want to compete with themselves.

>>15764546
>skidpad numbers

It's like I'm really on the Car and Driver or Road and Track forums

>>15764569
I don't really "get" pony cars. Are they just supposed to be like luxo sports coupes without the luxo part and less comfortable?

>>15764591
They're supposed to be a relatively small, light and cheap shell with the biggest engine dumped in there that they can fit. Affordable horsepower.

>>15764608
They're not really any of those things though. Is the Hyundai Genesis Coupe a pony car?

>>15764591
Not luxury. They were based on compact (for the time) cars meant to appeal to teenagers who wanted a sporty car. Options were dictionary huge so you could make anything from a bare bones shell with a 80hp I6 to a grand tourer or drag car or a track car.

>>15764626
It's a Korean shot at the pony car formula, yeah.

>>15763645
The genesis is barely a sports car. It's a weak overpriced pony car and according to some, handles worse than its American counterparts.

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What about the AMX?
>2 seater
>not expensive (I don't think it was anyway)
>V8

FUCK! 4 captcha challenges before I could finally post? Eff you guys!

>>15763393

mr-2

A loaded MR2 Turbo in 1995 cost more than $33,000, which was enough to buy a new Corvette

>>15764591
Well pony cars were at one point closer to hot hatches as far as purpose and the attitude surrounding them. Now they're...tributes to their former selves? That plus also trying real hard to compete with actual sports cars without the boomers noticing too much. They're an attempt to be a jack of all trades while excelling at none.

It's complicated because it's all the boomer baiting that's allowed them to sell so well and afford to produce engines as powerful as they are. This is why they come so close to being real sports cars but it's also what's holding them back from reaching "God machine" status.

It's sad really when you consider how good the Americans are at coming up with cheap and clever ways to gain performance edges. I would love to see nothing more than american value and ingenuity put towards the legit sports car market.

>>15764655
For a first try that aimed to be too many things at once, it's really not bad. And it's only $27K for 350hp.

>>15764708
And what did a base model MR2 cost? The most recent MR2 didn't cost much more than a Miata

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>>15764710
>I would love to see nothing more than american value and ingenuity put towards the legit sports car market.

>>15763323
>Makes a BS statement
>counters own statement with mustang.
>thread still blows up beyond 100 posts.
why /o/? Baiting you losers is to easy

>>15764870
How is it BS? America currently does not make a single sports car that's affordable

>>15764569

But they don’t want their flagship models to be slower than some whatever budget sports car

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>>15765183

>>15764798

In 88, the base model mr-2 cost 17,500 which is 36k in current money.

Not an Expensive sports car but not cheap either.

In 2006 it was a bit cheaper but still ran equal to 30k

>>15764293
They forked over money for the third gen Chevy Cavalier/Toyota Cavalier too. GM still built them though.

>>15764846

That's Australian mate

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>>15765474
>pontiac
>australian

>>15763323

The GM Kappa platform was so successful in the various production and modified SCCA racing classes it was appointed to that it was handicapped into obscurity. They're actually very capable cars. I can see not liking the styling. That's pretty subjective. I don't really care for the styling myself.

>>15763474
Saturn skys are poo. My sister owns one and its fucking garbage to drive.

>>15765474
What do you mean? I see those often here in the US. One of my neighbor owns one.


Unless you mean that particular version

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Ford saves the day again

>>15763323

Our sports cars are overpriced??

Have fun paying 30 grand for a fucking twingo.

The last time I checked it was 50 grand for a diesel "hothatch" over there.

Our shit doesn't need to be any cheaper if fucking high school kids are driving 60k+ sports cars.

Stop being poor Europe.

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>>15765889
>The last time I checked it was 50 grand for a diesel "hothatch" over there.
It's bad, but there is such a thing as exaggeration. 50k will get you an Egoboost Mustang in one of the worst countries, tax-wise.

>>15765772
What's the difference between the Solstice and the Sky then?

>>15765901

That's what a Corvette costs in a normal country....

>>15765903
styling and interior quality (interior quality is better on the Sky).
Ignore that anon. He drove one owned by a woman and we all know it only takes 2 weeks max for a woman to ruin a car.

>>15765920
As I said, one of the worst countries, tax-wise. Still not anywhere close to the 50k for a diesel hatchback mentioned in the post I replied to.

>>15765474
>Pontiac
>Australian
pick one

>>15763534
And yet people keep comparing them to Japanese sports cars.

>>15765935

I was using USD as a currency because it's the only one that matters.

Not like it makes it any better for you poor souls.

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>>15763323
>It only costed 24k at the time.

The V6 Mustang is pretty fucking good, and those numbers where from the old model which has a rear live axle.

>Faster than a BRZ, FRZ, Focus ST, GTI and Miata.

>>15765977
I'm impressed by that 4-banger Genesis being just 3/100ths off the Mustang.

>>15765985
The 2.0 tci even got a better lap time than the 3.8 Genesis that was competing with the Mustang, maybe because its a lighter car.

>>15765942
lol he can't into Holden

>>15765977
just got a v6 for my first car and love it rn

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>>15763429
Sky RedLine...my nigga!!!

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>>15766404
Nice, the 3.7 v6 is pretty good.
>Dat shifting lights

https://youtu.be/_wjKm1jMqnM

Autocucks will never know about this feature.

>>15763323
Literally Corvette

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>>15764236
Not the guy you're replying to, but the lesabre never came with the l67 (3800 series 2 s/c) . You're thinking of the Regal, pic related.

>>15766484
corvette is not a fucking super car

>>15766492
You're right, it's a supercar killer.

>>15766507
shhh you'll make more GTR shitposting come to the thread and ruin it beyond repair

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>>15766519

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>>15766545
just like the Corvette

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>>15766573

LOLCANTTURNPIECEOFSHIT

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BRITISHENGINEERING

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>>15766591
t. assmad GM fangirl

>>15766625

I wish your dads sperm was LS powered so your retarded ass would cease to exist.

>>15766633
So you're saying it would've broken down on the way to the egg?

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>>15766387
Holden never got the G6. The Pontiac G6 was a FWD American market variant of the Chevy Malibu. They were FWD, automatic only (for the most part) mid-size sedans, coupes, and hardtop convertibles (pic related) with 1 of 4 engines.
A 170 HP 2.4L Ecotec DOHC 4 banger (base model)
A 211 HP 3.5L pushrod 3500 V6
A 240 HP 3.9L pushrod 3900 V6 (GTP model. Only model available with a manual transmission)
A 260 HP 3.6L DOHC V6 (GXP model. Engine is known to AUSfags as the Alloytec V6)

The most common engine is the 3.5L V6, which moves it around decently.

>>15766642

We wish.

America is too busy making true works of art, like the 1993 Buick Century

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>>15766633
my dad actually owns a small lock chevy powered truck

>>15766649
GM BTFO!

>>15766642
>So you're saying it would've broken down on the way to the egg?
kek

Oh why do gm fangirls even post on /o/ anymore. They've BTFO every single day you would think they would leave.

I have a solstice. This thread makes me laugh.

>>15763481

All of what you listed are big markets

Topless sports cars are a niche

You need to learn to >>>/biz/

>>15763323
>not I4 ecoboost stang
get on with the times grandpa.

>>15764569
>Midship twinturbo V6
Nopeeee. That'd be way too expensive to compete with any pony car.

>>15764670
Very good pony car, not a sportscar.

>>15765814
That's a British AC chassis though, with just a Ford engine swapped in.

>>15763494
>completely different engine
>bodykit

>>15766954
We're the ones laughing at you buddy

>>15763448
> exaggerating makes my point stronger

>>15767414
I meant front midship. If they can afford to put turbo sixes in trucks and sell dirt cheap NA variants in current mustangs they should have no problem making a sub $30000 v6 sports car making 350-400 hp.

>>15767429
Yeah yeah. So is America.

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>>15763342
>implying

Say hello to the most aerodynamic fox body ever made

>>15763534
What year corvette? Last I checked they were considered sports cars not grand tourers.

>>15768823
>I meant front midship.
Not going to happen. Front midegneined cars are impractical to the pint where, if Ford were to make the Mustang FMR, it would lose a lot in practicality compared to the Camaro - and lose a lot of sales in the process.
>If they can afford to put turbo sixes in trucks and sell dirt cheap NA variants in current mustangs they should have no problem making a sub $30000 v6 sports car making 350-400 hp.
A regular V8 F-150 is about 28K.
An Ecoboost V6 F-150 is about 39K.

A regular V8 Mustang is about 32K.
Therefore, you can expect an Ecoboost V6 Mustang to be around 33K.

Do you really think you could make a 285hp Ecoboost V6 Mustang for less then 30K? It probably can't be done, because it needs a lot more cooling, which the Mustang wasn't designed to cool that much. And then what, you've got a more expensive and complicated engine, that actually delivers less hp than the V8 - there simply isn't room for it in the lineup right now. You could fix it by adding hp - but that would only push it from Mustang GT to GT350 price territory.

Ideal Mustang lineup would be this:
>300hp V6 - 25K
>365hp Ecoboost V6 - 28K
>435hp V8 - 32K
>550hp GT350 - 55K
>800hp Ecoboost V8 GT500 - 80K

>>15768881
Any year.

>>15768886
They are sold under the class of sports cars. I agree with most of what your saying but the states did make a cheap sports car, not the best but the most bang for your buck anon. The corvette

>>15768892
They can also be considered more of a Grand Tourer than a full-on sportscar - they generally lack the razorsharp handling required, are a bit heavier than most contemporary sportscars despite lightweight construction, usually have excess power etc.

They however cannot be considered cheap in any way. They really weren't at any point in time, always more expensive that your average sedan. Most sportscars nowadays tend to be cheaper when you compare them to current non-sporty cars.

>>15768905
So are you comparing things officially or on what you believe to be considered sport/GT.
And idk, 50k base corvette is pretty cheap for what you get, that being said if we are talking used market then you can get an older vette for less and still out perform most cars. But the comfort is mostly crap. Hate taking it out for long drives.

>>15764569
>muh heritage

The exact reason why we never got the falcon xr6 turbo in the states. fuck mustangs already seriously.

>>15763323
>>15763474
I saw these parked next to each other and they predicatively had the same everything. What the difference between the two?

>>15769304
Mechanically they're the same afaik, I think it's just styling and interior