Best Car $25,000

>>15761837
> enthusiast
> automatic


does he fuck his wife or let someone else do that too?

>>15761837

I would haggle to get that 30k price tag down tbhqfam

>>15761845
i told him this already. but this is non-negotiable. he is not an auto enthusiast. basically he's giving me a free $25,000 car with those two conditions above.

Get a Honda Accord and buy a car that's more expensive and performance oriented later when you have the money to make your own choices. You want a practical car to support you right now.

>>15761850
how would you go about doing this. lowest for BRZ is 29,000 just looking 5 min ago.

I really want the WRX though. $25,000 is way under MSRP for the automatic.

>>15761851
is that because he wants to be able to drive it? (and is a cuck who can't drive a manual)

>>15761852
seriously thinking about this.

>>15761837
personally i'm looking at getting a new jetta sel

costco auto program knocks off about 2 grand from the get-go, and you can negotiate more

>inb4 VAG comments

>>15761858
No it's because i live in a dense urban area in southern california and stick shift is a bitch with traffic.

>>15761862
I have Sam's Club Auto, thinking I could get a similar deal. Now what remains to be seen is if I could get the WRX down that low.

>>15761863
no it isn't, i drive in traffic everyday and it's still worth it.

traffic is shit with an auto or manual and i don't even notice that i have to shift in traffic occasionally

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>>15761837
What I would do is look at a Volkswagen Golf GTI, a Volkswagen Jetta GLI, or a used 2016 Acura ILX.

Those would be my choices and I'd try to go for the lightly used Acura. If going after the Acura, avoid 2012-2015 models. 2016 models got a major refresh.

They're not normal automatics. All 3 of those cars use DCT Dual Clutch Automatic Transmissions. Basically, 2 manual transmissions slammed together and automated. The means lightning quick shifts, and manual-tier reliability. The Acura one is better than the VW one, not just because it has 2 more gears (Acuras is an 8 speed to VW's 6 speed), but because the Acura DCT also uses a torque converter, which smooths out all the juddering common with DCT's at low speeds.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=esvfVAmrCnw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTjIeqX_3eM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnaulkNUpRU

>>15761863
>bitch in traffic
>Muh extra pedal
>So much effort
Sounds like someone hasn't driven a manual before

>>15761860
It's the mature choice OP, the initial thrill of getting a Mustang will fade when you realize it's drawbacks of storage space and ability to comfortably carry passengers when compared to a gas saving economical sedan. Also you'll soon realize that getting the base model Mustang isn't enough to satisfy a real enthusiast craving in the long run and you'll end up replacing it later anyways. Your first car should be practical for daily use.

>>15761863
It's good practice.

Hell I drive around Amsterdam all the fucking time in a manual, traffic here gets stupid, cyclists everywhere, congestion out the ass.
I drive a manual and it's fine, tell your dad to stop being a fucking cuck.

>>15761863
>>15761868
i agree with you but my dad doesn't, so who are you debating with?

he drove a stick for 30+ years and says it's shit. /o/ autists won't change his mind.

tb.h it's kind of dumb but i wouldn't even accept a 25k if it had to be an automatic

UNLESS

i could trade/sell it after, which is unlikely, or had no other car

>>15761857
Just go in with your dad and tell those faggots salesmen that 25k is the absolute maximum you will spend.

Stay away from turbocharged Subaru motors though, they are shit.

>>15761887
theres no point in arguing everyone here is a boyracer who thinks driving stick makes their dick bigger
>gets out driven by an auto with paddles

>>15761874
I'll check it out, thanks.

>>15761880
yeah, the storage space and passenger space don't phase me, but the base trim is a bit dumpy imho. probably not worth my old man's money.

>>15761895
some grade A goofballs.

>>15761897
no problem If I was stuck to those constraints, that's what I'd do. DCTs are the only automatics that don't piss me off in some way. I wouldn't bitch about automatics at all if everyone started switching to DCTs instead of converting to CVTs are they are.

>>15761852

Seconding this, if anon's dad is bankrolling them for a new car, might as well get anything that's decent/comfortable til you can get a nice, fun car. Autos aren't fun IMO. I'm in southern California too and am in a very similar situation but manual really isn't that bad down here unless you have a commute at rush hour in LA county (but is still manageable).

That being said, if he really is willing to throw down that much money, why not put in a few grand of your own to get that WRX? It's a fast, fun car that's somewhat practical still, and the non-STI is reasonable for daily driving from what I've read.

I'm also trying to decide between the BRZ/WRX, but I'm still having a hard time deciding between the two despite the WRX being "better" numbers-wise.

Not to mention it might be more worth it to save up more money and spend it during one of the holiday sales coming up...

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>>15761921
well, if it helps you, the WRX has a noticeably nicer interior, the back seats are actually usable, and it is much easier to get into. honestly, i'm 5'10" and it was a bit cramped for me in the BRZ.

BRZ is damn nice looking from the outside though.

I think I could talk my old man into this deal on the WRX. Should I go through with it?

>>15761895
my dick size didn't change when i learned to drive a manual though??

>>15761931

oh fuck i accidentally clicked the manual model. Scratch that.

>>15761874
> dct
> manual-tier reliability.


lol you wish

>>15761913
This, DCTs are the only acceptable autos.

>>15761837
Buy a Hilux, or a Camry

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>>15761837
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DV_VvW5km2k
20k in germany, probably 10k in the usa

>>15761851
What the actual fuck. My dad gave me 2000 euros to go and find myself a car. What kind of people are you americans

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>>15762182
They're about 20k in America too where it's known as the Hyundai Elantra GT. However, in America, there is no turbo. In America, the only engine is a N/A 2.0L making 173 HP and 154 lb-ft.
Not exactly hot and in no way a performance car in America. The closest thing we have to that that could be considered a performance model is it's sister car, the Kia Forte5 SX Turbo, which comes with a 200 HP 1.6L Turbo.

>>15762209
It's an American thing. Boomers have all the money and young people can't find a decent paying job. A single young person has to work 2-3 jobs just to make ends meet because minimum wage, even if working full time, will not keep you from poverty. That said, minimum wages vary state to state, but nationwide, it's a minimum of $8 per hour.

>>15762217
The federal minimum wage has been $7.25 for over 7 years.

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get an s2000
rwd
n/a
manual
light

slap a supercharger and a get it flashed and you'll be set all nice and satan, friend

>>15762222
>I can't read
fuck off retard

>>15761837
>automatic transmission
We both know that you cant drive stick anon its okay.

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>>15762239
This.
>>15761837
Don't go blaming others for your incompetence you cleft.

>>15762217
Try working Uber or Lyft. Even though they're, working ridesharing has it's stresses but it pays above minimum wage and anyone can do it. After gas and tax I average about $14 per hour in a Honda CR-V and it's a lot more fun IMO than working retail or food service.

New Ford Taurus SHO auto would be fun. Get it in black and you can do the expensive black taxi thing for Uber. No idea the price on it though.

Alternatively my friend loved his Nissan Maxima.

>>15762277
OP's looking new. Neither of those can be bought for 25k new.

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I personally wouldn't take his "free 25k" because there are already conditions on it, and there are sure to be more in the future:

>You got a ticket, I paid for that car, hand over the keys
>I paid for that car, you can't go out past 12
>I paid for that car, you can't modify it.

Save your pennys and get something that is all yours.

My friends mother did this all the time. She had his automotive freedom by the balls, and twisted whenever she liked. His younger brother saw this and turned down the same offer, and bought himself a Subaru Impreza 2.5RS coupe 5MT.

>it's not a sedan!
>it's a manual!
>it's a sports car!
>why did you buy this?!

I'll never forget the smug look on his face as he basically gave his mother a verbal middle finger: "Because I bought it with my money, and it's all mine!"

Good on him.

>>15762209
>My dad gave me 2000 euros to go and find myself a 3cyl diesel shitbox
Ftfy

>>15762217
Why do you think zero skill jobs should be worth a living wage? If you want to support yourself, get a skill.

>>15762359
This.

I have no sympathy for minimum wage workers. If you didn't have minimum skills you wouldn't receiving matching wages.

Besides, a lot of jobs that pay minimum wage weren't meant to pay for a family of four in a single family home with 2 cars in the driveway:

McDonald's was made for highschool students so they could have a little spending money with friends.

Clerical and receptionist work is the same, but you're getting office experience at the same time.

Manual labor jobs can net you some good money, but it's physically impossible to be a long-term career. Your body will give out, and that's your livelihood.

>>15762377
>a lot of jobs that pay minimum wage weren't meant to pay for a family of four in a single family home with 2 cars in the driveway:
not what I'm saying. Get over yourself and stop putting words in others mouths.

Minimum wage should pay enough for a SINGLE person to live in a small apartment, cover transportation to work, and minimum living expenses. But it doesn't. It's not too much to ask, and if you can manage money well, you can do very well for yourself.

>>15761887
buy your own car and tell him to fuck off.

>>15762359
i have a zero skill job thats easy as fuck and pays twice the minimum wage, with overtime whenever i want it. i make more than most people i know and the only people who make more than me are fully qualified precisoin engineers

>>15762444
I'll put my dick in your mouth if you don't watch yourself.

A minimum wage job pays around 8 an hour. 9*40 = 320/week, 1,320 a month, minus taxes, probably $1,100 after taxes.

That's enough for rent in a shitty studio apartment, groceries, bus fare/bicycle, a go-phone, and maybe enough to afford some cheap cable/internet.

There yah go. Enjoy your life as you scrape the bottom of the barrel. Stop bitching.

>"But rent is expensive where I live!"

Sounds like you don't deserve to live in such a nice area, bottom dweller.

>>15762466
Oops, meant to say $8-10 am hour, then I averaged it for maths

>>15762444
this guy

>>15761852

Third this. Get something reliable, and if you keep it "clean", you'll have an automobile that'll last for years that you can keep as a DD.

Then have your hoonmobile on the side. Win/Win.

>>15761837
Mustang, manual swap it behind his back.

Hell, auto is still good for straight lines and streetlight fun.

>>15762466
>Sounds like you don't deserve to live in such a nice area, bottom dweller.

Nice argument.

>>15762444
>Minimum wage should pay enough for a SINGLE person to live in a small apartment, cover transportation to work, and minimum living expenses.
>normative arguments
Minimum wage IS not supposed to be a "living wage"

>>15761837
the used frs can be had for under 20k


you are a baiting lieing pos

>>15762546
Up until the 70's, minimum wage was a living wage, then inflation happened and minimum wage remained stagnant. The point of minimum wage is to increase the standard of living of workers, REDUCE poverty, reduce inequality, boost morale, and force businesses to be more efficient. And it did this when insitituted in the 1930s, and remained a livable wage for decades.

>>15761837
Honda civic EK Boost HS1

>>15762217
>A single young person has to work 2-3 jobs just to make ends meet because minimum wage, even if working full time, will not keep you from poverty.

Maybe it's because young people are getting a job that pays relative to their skill level, education, and how much money they benefit a business... Or maybe it's because California's ridiculous burdens on businesses are driving people from the state into other states that are more business friendly. Or perhaps it's because millions of low skill, low wage immigrants have been imported into your area to work all the jobs that would be traditionally done by teenagers.

Quit repeating all this "baby boomers are hoarding all the money in Scrooge McDuck pits, just to keep it away from the young.

>>15762537
>completely avoiding the math and actual argument above it

Nice ignorance. He's right and you know it.

You get out what you put in, North America isn't some sort of perfect communist region. Sometimes you just can't do better, not smart enough/fit enough/whatever. Sucks, but deal with it. You're at the bottom, you don't get mid to high level treatment.

Find a roommate, lower your living expenses, go to school, network, keep looking for jobs, etc. People working minimum wage for more than 5 years obviously have zero drive to succeed, so why should they?

>>15762612
having worked with the young people I'll take the immigrates any day. I remember back when I was a manager at a food joint. The people that were ALWAYS there and working were the immigrants. The young adults either had no desire to work or wanted to come in high as fuck and sit around talking about how cool they are.

>>15762621
>You get out what you put in,

Not really. Trade agreements, migration, technological advancements, etc. have all made significant changes to the North American economy and yet the national minimum wage has failed to increase accordingly.

>People working minimum wage for more than 5 years obviously have zero drive to succeed, so why should they?

Right. Let's continue to pay underemployed workers shit. It's not like them to realize selling weed to adolescents puts more food on the table than bagging your kale and gouda down at the grocery....

>>15762638
As much as I dislike the immigrants, the point is that they drive down real wages, and then retards like this cuck want to increase the minimum wage, and not actually solve the damn issue.

>>15762660
>and yet the national minimum wage has failed to increase accordingly.

What has the standard of living done over the same time period? How many "poor" families have central air? Smart Phones? Microwaves? A Car?

If I want to work for $5 an hour to get my foot in the door and perhaps get on the job training, why should the federal government prohibit me from the voluntary interaction.

Artificially setting a wage simply adds a barrier to entry, and in the case of extremely low skilled workers, prices them out of the market.

>>15761837
>Right. Let's continue to pay underemployed workers shit. It's not like them to realize selling weed to adolescents puts more food on the table than bagging your kale and gouda down at the grocery....

Your average.. "underemployed"? What the fuck does that even mean? Your average burn-out* can't even sell weed, which takes some serious social, economic, and general life skills to do well. The person working full-time at McDonalds for 14 years, getting passed up for manager every 6 months, does not deserve anybody else's support. They're lucky McDonald's is around to fund them. We've already proven itt that you can live comfortably, if not lavishly, off minimum wage, what more do you want for your lack of contribution to society?

So many assistance programs exist for people that actually put in the effort, if you're stuck in a rut somewhere you've got nothing to blame but your lack of motivation.

So, Op, get the FRS. Will likely have better resale value since boiracers will pay more than daddy's little girl will for the V6 Mustang. They're both compromises as cars, might as well get one that makes fewer of them.

>>15762610
>The point of minimum wage is to increase the standard of living of workers, REDUCE poverty, reduce inequality, boost morale, and force businesses to be more efficient.
Then why are 60% of min wage workers not even out of college? Face it, they are low paying jobs for low skill young workers to just make a bit of cash. More efficient? Explain how minimum wage makes anything more efficient.
And it did this when insitituted in the 1930s, and remained a livable wage for decades.
Does this look like the 1930s to you? What an awful argument, rethink your life.

>>15761879
>Muh manual meme
LOL

Does it have to be brand-new? You can usually get a 2015 BRZ from a Subaru dealership for $23,000-$25,000.

>>15762444

Found the lazy millennial.

>Should I just bite the bullet and buy the Mustang?
You mean your daddy buy it you highschooler

>>15761837
I'd go with the BRZ/FR-S/GT86 if I were you

at least the automatic ones come with paddle shifters for manual mode and that's a huge step above most automatics

>>15762872
>paddle shifters
Feels so fake it's not even funny

>>15762731
>We've already proven itt that you can live comfortably, if not lavishly, off minimum wage,

Not even Donald Trump is parroting this shit now. Just stop.

>>15762675
>If I want to work for $5 an hour to get my foot in the door
Nobody's stopping your strawman. Plenty of "interns" are doing exactly this, or worse.

>>15761837
Why not just get something with a DCT to satisfy the automatic requirement but still be able to have a bit of fun?

>>15761837
Brz or frs with paddle shifters i guess. If youre a smaller guy get a miata

>>15762890
>$8/hr, 40hrs a week, about $1280/month, so say $1100 after tax
>ignores tax breaks and other benefits you can apply for when you're a useless sore on society, but anyways
>rent at 600/month, food 200/month, bus 100/month, 300/month left over for whatever

I don't see how this isn't livable, and those numbers are being generous to your point.

I don't live in the 'states, I live in Canada, where those numbers are even MORE in favor of being completely livable.

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>>15761837

in your position I would just get a v6 camry

comfy DD with enough power for traffic

This will free you up to get whatever project car you want down the road.

>>15762610
The only thing increasing minimum wage does is shrink the labor pool and concentrate the wages towards who is still in the pool.

>>15763054
>about $1280/month, so say $1100 after tax
I'm dying of laughter.

>car insurance/repairs
>medical bills (heaven forbid you need an EpiPen)
>heaven forbid you have a child
>heaven forbid you have student loans to start paying back immediately
>etc.

How old are you where rent, food and transportation are the only bills you think exist?

>>15763081
Increasing the minimum wage mainly would allow the government to rely less on assistance programs. Ask yourself this: Why is the majority of Walmart's entire workforce on SNAP?

>>15761837
>but it has to be a new car with automatic transmission. He won't budge on this

Oh my god tell him to either eat a dick or learn how to drive one holy shit.

>>15761862
DON'T DO IT ANON! Yeah they perform well but once the electrical problems start your fucked.

>>15763242
>heaven forbid you have a child

Why would you have a child while working at an $8/hr job?

>>15763301
Because you can't afford birth control and you can't afford an abortion or even find a place to do one.

>>15761863
Nigga I dd a 5 spd in los angeles. it's not even an issue

>>15763312

Maybe you should strive to make more than 8$ an hour then, huh?

>>15763348
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KT4vhl8slbE

>>15763348
Why? According to you, $8/h should be plenty to live on.

>>15763242

A car is not a right, it is a privilege. Why do you think you are entitled to be able to afford one on minimum wage? Take the bus or move somewhere where you can take the bus you useless dreg

>tfw barely getting by at $34/hr living with roommates

fuck housing prices man

>>15763396
>eyeglasses are not a right, they are a privilege. Why do you think you are entitled to see on minimum wage?

>>15762466
>probably $1,100 after taxes
Spoken like someone who doesn't understand income tax.

>$8/hr

I thought the current national minimum wage is $7.25? Even increasing it to the hypothetical $8 being suggested in this thread would take lots of political will that just doesn't exist.

>>15761837
you could just swap the transmission of a car you get
and you could get a 90s or 00s Impreza instead

>>15763449
Incorrect analogy.

>eyeglasses are cheaper and work just fine
>but I need expensive prescription contacts because of reasons, therefore other people need to prop up my wages.

>>15761863
I am sorry for your loss. Manuals are far more fun and the benefits more than make up for being less optimal in dense traffic. It's definitely not a bitch in traffic if you don't suck ass at it. Whoever told you that either isn't good with a stick or hasn't driven one.

>>15761837
get a certified used car with better features that's only a year or two old

>>15764282
I need contacts because it makes it easier to do my manufacturing job for 9hrs a day so you fucks can have washing machines and dryers.

Nobody needs to prop up my wages, I just need little kids who don't understand economics to stop ruining /o/ threads.

Honda Civic EX 1.5T

>>15764611
>because it makes it easier

So my analogy was spot on, then. A car is neither a right nor a necessity unless you live somewhere without public transit or carpool and you refuse to move. But rent in these places is lower, generally low enough to offset the cost of a car, and general living costs are less (food, taxes, etc).. So.. What's the issue?

>>15763284
in that price point, it's honestly the only car i like
a family member has one from 2011, just got hit with the vw 2.5 L issues like the vacuum leak

>>15761851
my parents gave me a manual RWD car and they're not auto enthusiasts. what the fuck kind of conditions are those

>>15763081
Minimum wage in my country is $18 and we have no where near the keep of unemployment as America

>>15764611
That's fine, we'll buy our washing machines and dryers from China where workers have the initiative to put glasses on their nose before work.

>>15764689
You also don't have a million illegal immigrants, I'm guessing.

>>15764656
>poor people aren't cheap enough!

This is wrong. While conservatives would (try to) have you believe that welfare recipients are living the good life doing drugs and eating lobster and shrimp, the reality is that millions are routinely down at Walmart debating whether or not little Jimmy can make do without breakfast this week to keep the lights on.

By the way, nobody ITT has argued that a car is an absolute necessity. Not only is this a strawman you are solely relying on to bolster a misguided trope about poor people, but it isn't as groundbreaking a revelation for most adults in the real world as you seem to believe it is in the first place. Clearly, a car is a convenience for most.

>>15764705
That's fine too. You can continue to breathe toxic chemicals from the lead paint all over the appliance resulting from the lack of regulation in a communist industrial boom.

>>15764763
If only the minimum wage was higher I could buy appliances that weren't toxic.

>>15761837
>v6 mustang, auto frs
All your sports car options are fucking gross. Get the mazda or a fiesta st.

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>>15762217
Fuck no it's not an American thing. Northern CA here, parents helped me but half of my first car, an auction truck for 5500 total. 2001 dodge ram 2500, V8 autotragic.
Sold it for 7k four years later and bought pic related, 2007 Honda S2000 with 21k miles for 18000. Not every American gets force fed their first car.

>>15764749
>8 dollars of cereal and milk
>making any significant difference for paying bills

These are the same people buying cigarettes and alcohol with their child bonuses. Look into it.

Minimum wage assumes that people have half a brain and can manage finances, which in this country and many others like it, is an incorrect assumption. However, nobody WITH half a brain wants to pay for those without. Before you give me articles and news stories about poor old Tabatha and her many children just trying to get by, let me say there are exceptions. But we're talking about federal minimum wage, which can't reasonably take into account such exceptions. Having worked in a welfare office, and delivered pizza in the welfare capital of my region, I can say that the average person on welfare is exactly whom I've been describing here: zero drive to improve despite multiple chances to do so, ordering pizza every other night because it's the end of the month and the cheques just came in.

Also you can't be on welfare with a full time job even at minimum wage (at least here you can't), so any point you tried to convey using it is completely irrelevant.

>>15761931
>the WRX has a noticeably nicer interior
Isn't is all cloth?

Cloth isn't nice anon.

>>15762320
I agree with you, but anon could take the car now, save all his shiny shekels and then buy his own car while using his dad's car in the mean time.


personally I'd make my kid drive a manual and tell him if he wants me to buy him a car he's not getting a FWD autofaggot car.

That or subaru Aztec

>>15761851
bullshit, you're the one that wants automatic cuz you don't wanna deal with manual, stop blaming your dad

>>15764861
Thanks for your anecdote. It really changed my perception of poor communities, and now I see (with exception, of course) that poor peole are leeches on society who order pizza with extra toppings like bacon! I am outraged.

And to your last point, what difference does it make? Employers like Walmart routinely ensure that their workforce don't accrue more than 39 hours of work a week. Why? Because then they don't have to give them "benefits" aka "workforce welfare" amirite? Better to let them work at minimum wage with no benefits, then the government can give them food stamps and WIC to make up the difference for not having to pay them shit.

stop being reliant on daddy and buy your own car that daddy wont try to use as ammunition against you down the line(buy a manual you fucking baby)

>>15761837
Your dad is a pussy

>>15764933
And upping minimum wage helps any of this... How?

I said minimum wage is as it should be, and that working full time at said wage is perfectly livable. I even did the rough math to show you get at least 300 bucks a month to blow on whatever you want, or for unexpected expenses.

Aren't getting full time? Grab another job; don't act like having two jobs making a cumulative 40hrs+/wk is somehow unfair.

I did this when I was younger, hence the pizza delivery. Everyone I know, and probably everyone you know, did the same. I did 65hrs/wk to get some savings so that I could go to school. I'm not especially smart nor did I have any real skills going into school. Grew up "poor" , and my income is still placed me as "lower-middle class", but I don't go wanting for anything because I want within my means.

You discard my anecdotal evidence but provide zero evidence of any sort yourself, and since very little statistical evidence exists on either side of this argument, I think my anecdotes hold a little more water than the "elect me because poor people shouldn't be poor!" garbage that's spewed every 4 years.

>inb4 the only thing you take away from this is "I'm not especially smart"

Minimum wage is fine, certain people need extra help, the majority of people need a swift kick in the ass.

>>15765042
You're glib. There have been several anons who have pointed out how life exists beyond housing, food and transportation. You incorrectly dismiss them all as excesses of poor people trying to live like a Kardashian.

Then, you double-down on your anecdotes, as if your experiences that one or two summers before college are somehow analogous yo the underemployed struggling to find even one job, with zero prospects of higher education, mind you.

Preying on poor people and the miniscule assistance programs and policies the government can offer is a useless distraction drummed up by conservatives and the like-minded, but that is a different thread that you have already shown is beyond your scope.

>>15761837
>it has to be a new car with automatic transmission
so getting a "sports car" is a very good idea..

>>15765160
>underemployed
That word.. You keep using it, but I do not think you know what it means.

>there's more to life than...
No, there isn't. Not in terms of minimums. Should we bring out a dictionary? That's two words now that you clearly need defined.

And you are consistently avoiding the singular point I've been making: minimum wage is a liveable wage for the vast majority of people. It's called minimum for a reason. Otherwise it would be called generous wage. If you're not making ends meet making a consistent minimum wage, then there's an outside influence causing it. Maybe you've got too many kids and no spouse, bad financial decisions, bad habits, the list goes on. In any case, not my responsibility to bail you out.

Millions of people are making minimum or not much above, and are doing well. You think that by cherry picking the few that aren't, that somehow justifies upsetting the economy just to please them? The people that waste money at 8 bucks an hour are just going to waste more at 10 bucks an hour.

You'll still say "over a million people are blah blah blah" but you forget that a million people is less than one three hundredth of the USA, and that usually includes the children of the parents not paying the bills. Does it suck? Sure. Can it be fixed with a higher wage? Nope.

Why is it that nobody on here can follow an argument and resorts to grabbing undisputed, irrelevant pieces of information thinking that it somehow validates their point? The strawman just needs a brain.

>>15765286
No need to play word detective. It has been clear from the start you were going to be as aloof as possible to the entire discussion.

There are millions of people NOT getting by on minimum wage.
>how do we know? etc.
Because of the millions of people with a job that still need the assistance of the federal programs in the first place.

Bottom line, people gotta eat, for lack of a better phrase. Bear in mind the costs of these assistance programs are being funded by the taxes coming out of your paycheck (it is hard to tell where you are on the fundamentals of this topic).

Perhaps this spells out my thesis better for you:
>low (current) minimum wage?
---higher reliance on government assistance programs

>higher minimum wage?
---less need for government assistance programs

Which one? Only one can be had.

>>15765421
People use it, therefore they need it? Sorry, that doesn't fly, and it's definitely not a reliable metric for measuring poverty.

Go look up the relative poverty line and see how skewed the numbers are. Relative poverty only goes down when everybody gets closer to the poverty line. Weird, huh? Know what would happen with higher wages? The poverty line rises and suddenly everyone is poor again.

"Millions of people" with full time jobs do not go hungry in the USA. You will not find a recent (or even somewhat recent) statistic that says that. You will find that relative poverty is at around 15 percent. Know what that means? It means that 15 percent of the population has less DISPOSABLE INCOME than 60 percent of the population (the difference between the 60 percent and the 85 that it "should statistically be" is basically due to super rich people).

ABSOLUTE poverty, defined as not having food (or other things) as you've stated, is very low in USA. Of course it exists, but it's such a small percentage of people that it easily falls into my explanation of "some people just don't want to work". Then of course there are the few that try and just cant; mental issues, bad childhood, zero marketable skills and no means to better themselves, whatever.

But look at more of the statistics. Drug users are much higher in "impoverished" homes. Cigarettes, alcohol abuse, same thing. These are the majority of people in absolute poverty, fucking look it up. Doesn't matter if the drugs brought poverty or the poverty bred drugs, stop spending half your cheques on weed and cigarettes and you'll magically be able to start feeding your kids; funny, huh?

Once again, my fairly well articulated and statistically proven point remains, minimum wage is fine where it is. Social assistance is also fine how it is; I don't mind paying taxes to help those that legitimately need it.

There. No personal anecdotes.

>>15763312

Hey faggot, no one said you had to go out and have unprotected sex. Maybe you shouldn't raw dogging it if you make $8 per hour.

Consequences exist and piss poor forethought is often the reason for them. If you can't afford the kid OR birth control then don't go out and engage in risky behavior.

>>15763242
$1100 ignores your tax return, too, where you get most of that back.

Child? You obviously shouldn't bring one into the world.

Car insurance/repair? I've never been asked to repair OR insure the bus. Where do you live that they do this?

Healthcare? Pretty sure that stuff is now covered, and even if it wasn't, take 50 bucks a month and throw it at an insurance plan.

Rent included Hydro, water, basic internet. If you're making 8 bucks an hour you'd better have roommates or just a small apartment, so that rent figure is reasonable.

The average person also doesn't eat 200 bucks a month in groceries. I was pretty generous, you're just finding ways not to include luxuries in excess of 500 dollars in your unbalanced budget.

>taxes being less than 1/3rd your gross income
>rent for any place that isn't loaded full of niggers not requiring your gross to be 1.5x your rent

where do you all live

>>15763242
I agree with your sentiment, but your "just raise the minimum-wage, bro!" argument completely ignores the fact that employers are going to accelerate automating low-skill positions and hire illegal aliens under-the-table to avoid paying an increased minimum-wage.

There are more effective ways to increase (real) wages than raising the minimum-wage.

>>15765571
People wouldn't use it if they didn't need it. Where are all the people using food stamps to supplement their 5-star dinners? Nobody is doing that; it is a strawman that not even Fox News could make stick. Because we know where this trope has come from, that welfare recipients are secretly living the lap of luxury with their carts filled with all those processed foods at the store; it came from conservatives and similar kin who wanted to scapegoat and distract.

There are multitudes of indicators that demonstrate the growing inequality in this country, none of which you would ever cop to understanding. However, even giving in to your unfounded implication, it still doesn't make the current minimum wage "fine," or "livable" or even acceptable in a first-world country. Keeping up with economic factors like inflation and productivity, the minimum wage today should be in the ballpark of $20, and my point remains... Increasing it means less people feeling the need (or desire, as you believe) to apply and accept assistance programs that you, but not others, are willing to pay increased tax rates to sustain.

>>15765668
30 percent income tax in the USA means about 90k/yr income, in which case you are NOT who is being discussed here, obviously.

Which state taxes 30 percent on under 30k???

>>15765715
>people wouldn't use it if they didn't need it

Uhm.. Yeah, yeah they would. Think I wouldn't have applied for welfare if I was qualified for it? Of fucking course I would, it's literally free money to me. And I don't even blame the people who do use it when they don't absolutely need it. However for those same people to turn around and say "we on welfare, so raise minimum wage"? It's ridiculous.

And you keep saying there's all this evidence of this or that, but you've failed to source or even mention LITERALLY ANY of it.

You're full of shit, throwing up whatever the last news article you read was.

As for the wage gap, it's literally the same metric as relative poverty. Is it an issue? Yeah, in some ways. Will it be eliminated by paying everybody more than the economy can afford? That logic is laughably flawed and you know it.

Proof or GTFO, and remember that no amount of unfounded logic you spew on 4chan will increase your current McWage.

>>15765778
>Uhm.. Yeah, yeah they would. Think I wouldn't have applied for welfare if I was qualified for it? Of fucking course I would, it's literally free money to me.

Perhaps you misunderstand... Sure, who doesn't like "free money?" It doesn't exactly work that way. After you apply for assistance, then it's a waiting game. Why? Because interested parties such as yourself are successfully and routinely cutting the funds to these programs.

It's how you end up with homeless veterans living underneath the overpasses... The Veterans Affairs programs are being cut too, under the same principles you share.

Also, not sure what "proof" you're looking for. These news stories are reported everywhere. I've said nothing new here at all that hasn't already been covered by a reputable news organization. So far, the only "proof" you have offered is personal experiences from when you delivered pizzas.

>>15761863
I live in the 818 and drive stick. You are just a bitch

>>15765910
>look at this guy, he lies on the internet

I've shown several statistics and their basis.

All you've done is treat me like some sort of warmonger, when all I've said is that the minimum wage is fair. I've never once said anything should be cut.

You're resorting to outright lies and hyperbole to make your point, and it's STILL not working. Give up, or quote something you can actually use.

Try to stay on point this time.

>>15765949
>when all I've said is that the minimum wage is fair.

It's NOT fair. I've only posted in an attempt to demonstrate this. I've even tried to detail how the politics of it all are all intertwined as one collective farce.

And now you're acting as if the discussion has offended you. My mistake for thinking you were emotionally ready for this.

>>15765996
Except you haven't demonstrated it.

What you have done is spout baseless platitudes taken straight from some sort of biased pamphlet, made assumptions about my political views, reiterated the same baseless generalizations, lied about what I've been saying, and now you're pretending like I'm personally offended by a troll on the internet.

I've presented my FACTS, checkable through the Census (yes, from recent years), presented personal examples, and made an attempt to keep you on track.

You've ignored it so blatantly that I'm convinced you don't know what you're talking about. Anybody who's been bored enough to read all this on /o/ can form their own decisions, but hopefully they'll fact check a little more than you did before regurgitating anything either of us have said.

>>15766360
Hi there,
The minimum wage should be increased. Not sure what evidence was presented as to why it shouldn't be.

File: vw-golf-gti.jpg (144KB, 1280x720px) Image search: [Google]

144KB, 1280x720px

>$25k USD
>must be automatic
>considering anything but this

>>15766442
TIMINGBELT
WATERPUMP
TRANSMISSION

Perhaps OP doesn't feel like having to say these words over and over again at the VW service department.

>>15766438
Then you haven't followed the thread.

>relative poverty is a manufactured statistic
>minimum wage still leaves you with disposable income
>absolute poverty, as uncommon as it is, is vastly due to other factors
>increasing the minimum wage will not result in "fewer poor people"
>will likely lead to an overall increase in unemployment and outsourcing
>for the legitimate outliers in the system, social assistance exists

You can read through for the proof and reasoning of the above, as I and other anons have covered them.

Reasoning contradictory to the above:
>an unnamed, unknown number of people who genuinely work and try can't pay bills for reasons not made clear

Weirdly, I didn't even have to exaggerate what's been said to prove the point.

>>15765923
driving from pacoima to sun valley isn't that annoying, juan

>>15766481
>doesn't know about the new EA888
>doesn't know shit about the new head design

god is this board even a car board anymore its just full of dumb anime stickers and faggots like you spreading disinformation.

>>15766513
>relative poverty is a manufactured statistic
Not sure how so. It is a metric most economists take very seriously, as it defines a baseline to gauge how good or bad the national population is doing at not living in a cardboard box.

>minimum wage still leaves you with disposable income
I lived on the American minimum wage just a few years ago, working at McDonald's like a lot of gradeschoolers. No way in hell $1000 a month would sustain anyone looking to have their own apartment, food, transportation, and whatever else people need. My mum covered those expenses for me, so I could blow my cash on iPhones and xboxes.

>increasing the minimum wage will not result in "fewer poor people"
Okay, however it would be a boom to the economy, giving more spending power to the people who actually go out and spend their money. It would help get more than a couple people get out from under the crushing debt. It would directly undercut businesses in the practice of seeking the lowest common denominator of workers, therefore probably cutting down on illegal immigration. It would put more money directly into the pockets of hardworking American citizens.

>will likely lead to an overall increase in unemployment and outsourcing
This didn't happen after 1997 when the minimum wage increased by 90 cents. In truth, there was virtually no job loss that directly resulted. In fact, many suggest that when the models for analyzing wages and the economy are adjusted to also consider the money employers spend on job recruiting and training, there hasn't ever been an instance in which raising the minimum wage directly resulted in a loss of the available jobs.

>>15761874
I have a TLX and I do love that DCT except the clunk from R to D which they fixed with a software update, just be ready for harsher shifting in the winter and the occasional feeling of being rear ended.

>>15762342
What else was I supposed to get with that money?

>>15766746
Relative poverty is simply a differently worded measure of Income Gap. Look into how it's calculated; it has absolutely nothing to do with what people are or are not going without, or if they can provide basic needs. "Manufactured" may be the wrong term, but it's a biased calculation when used to make your case.

I live off of about 900/month, some months less some months more. I don't go wanting, I've got transportation, rent, food, and leisure money out of that. I'm very confused when I see the national average debt to income ratios, rent, food prices, etc, then see people saying "it's not enough".. Because it is. Math doesn't lie. What does happen is people living beyond their means, such as wanting their OWN apartment, leasing a new car every other year, making bad financial decisions simply because they think they can.

1998 saw the biggest outsourcing spike in US history. So I'm not sure where your stats are from.. Are you looking at absolute values instead of rates, maybe? I'm genuinely interested.

It would give extra income here and there, but knowing this, prices will spike. Upping minimum wage has not led to an actual increase in spending money over 5 years. Ever.

>>15768206
>I live off of...
An adult with two children, who works full-time at the current minimum wage puts that enitre family below the current poverty threshold. Telling that adult to retroactively not have kids they can't afford is untenable in the United States, or anywhere in the world.

Nobody working any full-time job should be living in poverty. This is an American ideal that separated our first-world country from second-and-third-rate countries across the globe.

The federal minimum wage not being directly linked to the national median wage is where the problem lies. While the purchasing power and value of the dollar has fluctuated year after year with ease, the minimum wage remains essentially flat decade over decade, and requires the approval of the executive and legislstive branches of government, where all good ideas go to die. That's a problem, and a single male's ability to have "some left over" for an iPhone or a pair of sneakers after every month isn't an indicator that any economist would bother to use.

>>15768605
>retroactively not have kids
So you're saying they had a decent job, spouse, etc, then lost it, and are incapable of getting these things ever again? If only there were several assistance programs in place for this exact eventuality.
>ohw8

I also think you're severely overlooking the term "minimum", and if we do that, why doesn't everybody get a Ferrari? Who am I to determine minimums? Who are you, or the senate, to say what a person can do without?

As I've said before, the poverty thresholds are biased statistics since the.. I wanna say 50's? Whenever they changed to relative numbers. Eliminating poverty is mathematically impossible, not just infeasible, IMPOSSIBLE, with that metric. It makes zero sense.

Along with all of the other issues, which you've not been able to counter, raising the minimum wage, especially to the astronomical 20/hr someone here suggested, is ridiculous and not a solution to any issues raised here.

>>15763242
>How old are you where rent, food and transportation are the only bills you think exist?
Not him but 24 and yes they are
Unless you don't count utilities celly and interweb in rent
I make a mere $11hr and with three roommates I live hella comfy I'm even searching for an AW11 to work on in addition to my '89 MJ.

Granted I structure my life expressly to cost peanuts to live. I still live in a 1,700sqft house in a HOA controlled suburb though, shits excellent and easily attainable with 3 roommates. After this though it'll be a singlewide for a few years until my rental property plan kicks into stage 3 and I have checks coming in from 4+ trailers and at least one duplex.

>making money
>hard
I'd you're not retarded you can live on any amount of money.

>>15764933
I wish I could get some neetbux for working at walmart for my 35 hour 'full time' week, but as a childless unmarried white male I am not eligible for any type of public assistance.

Only with children are allowed to leech as such. I get $800 on 2 weeks ($600 take home pay $200 taxes) and that's it. The Walmart customers (and workers with children) are the welfare leeches. If I had welfare I would be rich. Well not rich, but at least white trash with money instead of poor white trash.

Don't come to Walmart looking at the vests thinking you pay to feed them, we just as hungry as you giving the compulsory tax of 25% of our pay towards the black lives matter movement and other democrats like yourself.

>>15768642
>So you are saying...
Strawman.

>why doesn't everybody get a Ferrari?
Strawman. Muddying the waters. Et cetera.

Poverty threshold, relative poverty, "income gap," whichever term you deem acceptable, is a verifiable metric to which the non-armchair economists of the scholastic community can directly assess current minimum wage statistics. By any metric, the wages of the American worker has dramatically declined. Raising the minimum wage is perhaps the easiest way to begin to reverse this trend.

>>15768667
It's hyperbole, you dick nut, not strawmanning. It's precisely on point.

Inflation adjusted wages have been stagnant after the slight decline in the early seventies (only because it rebounded to high from the 50s). Don't feed everyone the same lies you've been fed, fucking look it up for yourself. I'm sick of doing your research for you.

Relative poverty is NOT a scholarly metric. In fact it's regarded as the least useful statistic for measuring poverty rates between countries, and is only another measure of income gap (which I've admitted is an issue but a separate issue.. So who's strawmanning now?). Quit using it thinking that means 15percrnt of people are going hungry and without shelter; they're fucking not.

DO SOME GOD DAMN RESEARCH

>>15768665
In North Carolina, you are definitelt elligible for SNAP benefits, provided you don't have a ton of money in your savings (which you don't, you work at Walmart).

Perhaps start blaming the conservatives in your state for cutting access to benefits, rather than scapegoating American citizens who made the terrible decision of bringing children into the world.

>>15768705
I'd rather continue to blame parents of young children. They are ruining society the most. Childless people do not litter diapers on the ground everywhere.

>>15761837
Tell him you've decided you want to be your own man and earn your car instead, you fucking rich prick.

>>15763242
>putting children before personal pleasures
>actually blowing a shitload on children instead of going full budget with used and long lasting clothes (toddlers don't care about sweatpants) and doing things like not giving them special lessons unless they demonstrate the ability to learn some basic shit on their own
>accruing student loans via america's broken higher ed scam instead of refusing to participate and self-education
>2016

>>15768703
>My philosophical fallacies are superior to your fallacies!

American wages are DROPPING. That means theybare going DOWN. Yes, they were stagnant for years; you would have been right a decade or so ago when they were only "stagnant."

The minimum wage should be increased, and your personal feelings on the matter, including your inability tonaccept dissenting views are assuredly irrelevant.

>>15768665
>but as a childless unmarried white male I am not eligible for any type of public assistance.
What he meant by this was
>I haven't even bothered to apply for foodstamps

Stop buying memes as fact
Yes "I can't have things bcuz white" is a fucking meme

>>15768716
I agree.

The country's economic issues undoubtedly resolve themselves when the human population decides to cease existing.

>>15761863
modern stick is pathetically forgiving

It'll do shit like blip the throttle for you, and the clutches are all hydraulic, designed for durability instead of performance, and feel like nothing to your leg.

Commuter cars from 2005 are still running around with their original clutches despite the heavy slipping they see unless they were used for daily launches

>>15761880
*should hold some value so you can resell it and get something you actually like

>>15761895
The reason people drive manual is probably the same reason they ride motorcycles

It's about the thrill of having to go an extra mile to operate the vehicle, not about lap times or comfort. It's why commuters that don't need it buy cars that are semi-auto only, but with more engagement than just revving the shit out of the engine. Would recommend if you're bored in traffic but not stuck in jams every day. Would not recommend if the equivalent car has a DCT and can therefore shift faster and maintain boost between shifts.

>>15768737
Yes, the economy has shown to have problems adapting to the birth rate, because apparently creating human beings just to suffer and starve is a right, not a privilege.

>>15768744
>right
It's your fucking job as a human. You don't have a kid, you've failed at your job.

>>15768727
>my incorrect, not-backed-by-fact statements are right
>your statements are wrong
>stop not accepting my statements

That's literally you right now.

Something like 30 states have minimum wages that have kept up with or surpassed inflation. Average wages have kept up with inflation in an almost impossibly linear fashion. Minimum wage has very nearly come back to the point it was at the end of the 70s (there was a low point between then and the new millennium).

If national minimum wage was increased to 9 bucks, that would be an increase of 20percent compared to 1985 (inflation adjusted of course). Previous years were worse than the 80s. What you're then implying is that at no point in time has minimum wage ever been enough to sustain people.

>bu-but I didn't imply that, you're strawmanning!

This is what happens when you don't fact check: your words get placed alongside facts and so inferences are made.

These are all verifiable facts, something which you see incapable of producing yourself.

I re-iterate: do some research, find some facts, then come back here. So far you've done nothing but prove you have no idea what you're talking about.

>>15768749
Why is having kids everyone's job? What if they can only have shit tier kids that are outclassed in every way by other kids? What if they have so many kids they can't all be utilized?

Humanity can't continue to grow and prosper with that attitude unless it abandons the concept of "human rights" and lets the unneeded starve and enslaves the rest to better extract what little they have to offer, regardless of the whims of the civillian economy.

>>15768814
We don't even need to starve or enslave anybody. 80 years of not allowing those who can't manage children to breed will do the same job. There should be an adoption process for ANYBODY to give birth. Can't do it? Household not stable enough? You do too many drugs? You don't get natal care, but your abortion is free. Job done.

>>15768797
>Something like 30 states have minimum wages that have kept up with or surpassed inflation
This was considered, wages still went DOWN in most economic calculations since the Great Recession era. This has been reported on everywhere in the media, conservative and liberal establishments alike. Not sure how you missed it, since you imply you care so deeply about this topic.

>What you're then implying is that at no point in time has minimum wage ever been enough to sustain people.
It hasn't since its inception, true. Once again, the minimum wage should be directly linked to the median wage of the nation. Then there's no debate over whether or not it has been adjusted or calculated correctly.

>These are all verifiable facts,
Proclaiming them so doesn't make it so.
Wages have gone DOWN, and the current minimum wage is INADEQUATE.

>>15768814
>>15768826
>What if

What if your mom had put it in her mouth and swallowed you instead?

When humanity operates on "what ifs" instead of "how tos," humanity loses.

>>15768814
>Actually advocating for controlled eugenics instead of society doing its goddamn job properly
You're the first to die when the shooting starts, and I'm going to make sure of that, fascist.

>ITT: Neo-fascists and zionist shills
Do not under any circumstances post in favor of any system but free market capitalism. Any other endorsement opens the door to agents of the New World Order to spread and implement their disease of control. Resist this, with violent and deadly force where required.

The spirit of free men must not perish from this earth, at any cost.

>>15768840
Controlled eugenics isn't the same as limiting the birth rate so the idiots don't flood the streets with kids who can't do shit, maybe because they inherited the idiocy, maybe because they're genetic flukes of high intelligence with zero opportunities due to their position in society being associated with people with zero ability

The world would be a better place if you had to demonstrate past successes and readiness for more kids to have more than two babies.

>uh my oldest works at mcdonalds and idk about the youngest she's kind of doing nothing. both are still living here.
>Nope, no more kids for you
>my oldest child is enrolled in state college and my youngest is still in highschool but worked a job last summer and is saving up to go to trade school
>alright go ahead you're clearly good at this

Also controlled eugenics is economically unfeasible. The cost of managing every fucking birth would be insane. Most people won't try to have more than 2.

>what about illegal third children?
Ship them to africa and saturate the continent with slightly superior genetics :^)

>>15768826
So what, now people are having kids at 30-40 after raising some orphan? Enjoy those autism/down syndrome rates.

>>15768827
>reported on everywhere in the media
>reported on
>in the media

Try looking at the statistics, instead of regurgitating what you've heard on your chosen media outlet. Do some research on your own, find the sources, you'll see they haven't declined in any significant fashion for a long time.

I'm sick of discussing this with someone who clearly doesn't want to do the work to learn. I've looked up both sides of the argument, I get where you're coming from, but the facts aren't there to back it up.

>>15761852
4thing this. I drove a 91 accord for years that had been in the family since 91. No problems ever, I didn't put money into at all other than maintenence and cleanliness (i.e. no sweet rims, tuner kit or any shit) and just saved up to buy my own fun car.

>>15768864
>after raising some orphan

Literally what? I know reading is hard, but really try this time.

You can still have kids young, but you'd better be stable. The requirements for stability are surprisingly low, it's basically "can you reliably feed and cloth a kid". If the answer is no, why the FUCK WOULD YOU HAVE A KID? People are too stupid to come to that conclusion themselves, hence the screening process.

>>15768865
>I've looked up both sides of the argument,
No, you haven't. You've remained intentionally ignorant, and resorted to illogical metaphors and embellishment again and again.

American wages have diminished, the wealthiest have gotten wealthier, the poorest have gotten poorer, and the minimum wage should be increased.

Nothing you've posted has refuted any of this.

>>15768879
>"can you reliably feed and cloth a kid"

This is inaccurate. The question is, can the government reliably feed and clothe your kid. We already know you can't, because you're on minimum wage.

30k for a wrx? Is this in CAD? What the fuck?

wish i had a dad

>>15762359
>>15762377

If this isn't bait, you guys genuinely believe that people who aren't capable of getting careers above minimum wage should live on the streets? Why do dumb people not deserve to have a decent life, just because they were born dumb and raised dumb?

Most folks working minimum wage don't want to work 2-3 minimum wage jobs 60 hours a week. They have to in order to get by, and then they don't have time or money left over to pursue further education. Is this too difficult for you to grasp?

>>15768910
Other than most of the things I've posted, of course. But I suppose we'll gloss over that, since you clearly have.

>>15768998
Nothing you've posted m8. None of it.

>>15768930
Except we're proposing a system that might actually help, so it's not currently accurate. But it should be. But you knew that.

If raising the minimum wage means less Honda Accords on the road, then we should do it.

>>15761874

I'd stick with a 2010 TL SH-AWD. Comfy first car for around 20+