is tesla a serious company?

Considering electric cars are a passing phase I'd say so.

Short term investment maybe but unless battery technology has a Capernican breakthrough it's an industry doomed to suffer the same fate as the laserdisc and the gameboy micro

>>14042579
Learn who is Musk and you'll know the answer.

>>14042579
> premature drivetrain failures across the board

Who knows.

so why are real car companies so pressed to get in on the action, if it's about to be over? ford promised 13 all-electric models by 2020, investing 4.5 bil

>>14042596
Because just like bright neon windbreakers, pump-up basketball shoes, curly shoelaces and Guns 'n' Roses people are stupid enough to buy into what's popular and get lost in the hype.

Electric cars are inefficient and use more energy than ICE cars, they're heavy and expensive and are extremely limited in range compared to an ICE car because you can hop into a filling station and fill up almost anywhere, whereas (and again, only with current and even theoretical battery technology) charge times and charge capacities are extremely limited with electric cars.

What people don't realize is that batteries are terrible at storing energy and are horribly inefficient, not to mention to get electricity you have to generate electricity, most of which is still done with Coal in the modern world. So your car isn't "Running on clean energy" it's "Running on coal power that's lost energy countless times to reach the road because it's transferred so many times to get to you."

>>14042596
As lame as it is to attribute good ideas to them, Top Gear had it best on their electric car episode

Electric cars are a neat idea and a step in the right direction, but the real answer lies in Ethanol and Liquid Hydrogen powered cars.

well hydrogen seems like a shitty prospect desu. don't know about ethanol, but it's been around for a long time and achieved what?

>>14042624
It's worked its way into almost all filling stations.
Combustion engines designed to use ethanol work just fine.

Why does hydrogen seem like a shitty prospect? Can you give a reason?

>>14042611
>people buy

companies need to spend lots of money to even offer it for them to buy

>>14042611
You know, the trick is that we can generate electricity in other ways than burn coal, and we can reseach and build better batteries.

What we can't do is research and build more efficient gasoline. Sure we can tune again and again combustion engines for a better efficiency, but we'll reach a ceiling. The point is that the electrical motor has a lot less moving parts than a combustion one.

>>14042628
because fuel is either shitty or too expensive, also dangerous

>>14042583
But anon, fossil fuel-powered cars are gonna be banned from sale in 2050! Electric cars are the future, and Tesla is making that future a reality right now!

>>14042636
isn't it though?
model 3 is supposed to be affordable and 'the real one'

>>14042628
Because hydrogen is a molecule that is always married up to at least one other molecule and it takes a shit load of energy and expense to divorce it. It's a lot like cutting up 2 20 dollar bills and pasting the corners and center pics onto a 1 dollar bill and trying to pass it off as a 20 dollar bill. Yeah, it's that retarded.

>>14042632
Not the anon you're quoting friend but you mean to say "fewer moving parts" not "less moving parts"

>>14042646

Right, marrying and divorcing molecules is so impossibly expensive and difficult that nuclear power is still a thing in most developed countries.

>>14042650
You're right anon, my english is quite shitty, I'm slowly improving.

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>>14042652
drive safe!

>>14042654

I'm just being cheeky, that's one of the grammar rules a lot of native English speakers screw up.

I figured you were just a native speaker who didn't know the rule and I was going to take you on a ruse cruise.

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>>14042657

Still the cleanest energy source we have that can power a major grid :)

>>14042671
apart from insanely dangerous waste that stays for sooo long

my pic was a joke about how you'd put it in a car

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Electric cars are more desirable in European countries where gasoline is not government subsidized. Americans pay $1~$2 *under* the actual market value of gasoline because of government subsidies, even after taxes are added at the pump. Last year, the Tesla Model S was the top selling model in Norway where gasoline is over $7 a gallon.

Alright guys I'm still drunk as fuck from last night but hear me out
>we need clean electricity
>poor people in third world countries need jobs
>give poor people exercise bikes hooked up to generators, pay them meager sum of money
Clean electricity lads. I'll report back with my Nobel peace prize.

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>>14042611
>Electric cars are inefficient and use more energy than ICE cars
well that's bullshit
the efficiency of electric vehicles varies greatly based on the mean of electricity production
in developed countries they are as or more efficient than ICE

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I hope so. His master plan is pretty clearly building up funds to popularize first electric cars, then popularize the self driving car, then fearmonger and campaign for banning manual driving cars, so he can, temporarily at least, corner the market with quality automatic cars. This probably won't work and all we'll end up with are more safety regulations. His work in popularizing the electric car is a step in the right direction, but I really don't want him to have any say in the automotive future, so here's hoping Tesla dies in the near future, I've already made a hefty profit from their stock.

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>>14042652
>use electricity to make hydrogen
>use hydrogen to make electricity

When will people realize the majority of our emissions come from manufacturing?
My guess is that an electric car, requiring rare earth metal dug up in Chinese mines, have a bigger impact in its life cycle than an equivalent fossil car.

Not to mention that cars in general only stand for 15 % of the total CO2 produced.

The best way to reduce emissions, from my point of view, is to reduce consumption of consumer goods, and transporting food from every corner of the earth.

>>14042712
>live in Germany
>fossil fuels highly taxed compared to Murrika
>but electricity is also fuck expensive because they completely fucked up everything with their nuclear exit and green energy subsidies
>electric car fuel savings are less than 25% compared to an economic diesel
>electricity expected to become more expensive still

>>14042843
Sure is a whole lot of citation needed.

>people not realizing hydrogen rotary engines are the future
KEK

>>14042868
shut up nerd

To be honest, I'm not going to give up electronics, cars or any convenience industrialization has brought us. I have a ringside seat as "global warming" unfolds.

>>14042816
Its okay if Tesla dies because Nissan will be making plenty of self driving autonomous cars for everyone :) ! Isn't Nissan so great? You will be able to take selfies in your super cool crossover electric self driving sports car! Nissan is always there for us enthusiast :D

>>14042579
Other auto manufacturers have the sale of gas/diesel vehicles to subsidize the development of their electric vehicles. Tesla on the other hand has to survive entirely by selling pure electric cars and SUVs. Though I doubt Tesla is anywhere near scraping by, they're building some multi billion dollar plant to assemble battery units, and throwing that kind of cash around means they're confident that it'll pay off.
I'd like to see them become a market staple in the future. At the very least it would spur the competition to try and compete with Tesla on power and styling.

>>14042583
> electric cars are a passing phase

They're most definitely not a passing phase, they're just in their infancy. Our battery tech is so immature for handling the capacities a vehicle requires that Tesla themselves are powering their vehicles with standard Panasonic 18650 cells. The kind you yourself can buy off of Amazon, just an off the shelf battery.
The propulsion systems themselves are so simplistic that they won't change much, but the batteries, and charging infrastructure across the nation has to advance by leaps and bounds.

>>14042628
Hydrogen fuel cells have to be compressed to a fairly high pressure. They're far more volatile than a lithium battery pack, or a tank full of race fuel. A bad wreck with a hydrogen powered vehicle could end up detonating the cell and shattering the windows of everything nearby, not to mention making anyone within ear shot deaf.

>>14042993
The Tesla brand has a lot of cache in certain circles (millennials), they'll probably get bought out by a big automaker or merge with a chinese competitor

>>14042843
The Teslas don't even use rare earths you idiot.

>>14042579
Dead in less than 10 years.
/thread

Most of the electricity in europe comes from oil shale.
People think that driving a electric car is more "clean".
Driving a electric car makes more air pollution than any other Internal combustion engine.

I'd say they're a flash in the pan.

They simply don't have the economies of scale to compete with the big global manufacturers as they get serious about electric cars.

I'm not sure when things will hit the wall, but when they do they'll probably be bought out for their patents and R&D and the manufacturing business shut down, along with the brand.

>>14042611
Most car owners in the world going forward (read: those in Asia) will never take their cars outside of the cities they live in. So there's definitely a niche for all-electric vehicles, especially as internal combustion engines will start being banned in a lot of cities due to air quality concerns (again, particularly in Asia).

>>14043277

>>14042774

>>14042712
Norway isn't a 'real' economy. The rest of the planet can't afford $100k cars.

>>14043054
I'd assume they do for the electric motors, no?

>>14043318
no they use AC induction motors
there is probably some in the cabin (speakers etc) in minute quantities

>>14042611
>fill up almost anywhere

And yet the only place you can't fill up regular car is where it's most practical and logical - in your garage

>>14043454
that isnt practical and logical at all..

unless the only place you take your car is around your neighborhood.

>>14043277
>Most of the electricity in europe comes from oil shale.

Nope, even slav shithole where I live gets 50% from hydro, 20% nuclear.

Fossil fuels are like 15% or so.

>>14043462

Rich people mostly use their cars to commute around the city, they don't travel with car for long distances like poor folk does, there's Boeing for that.

So I guess they prefer charging their Teslas in garage of villa than mixing with losers at gas station.

>>14043509
It just occurred to me that the advent of electric cars will remove the one time the super-rich would ever have to mix with the masses (at the gas station).

>>14042789
That's simply not true, nice try though.

>>14042712
I'd like to see the sales in a free market scenario. No subsidies or tax breaks for electric.

>>14042993
>Tesla themselves are powering their vehicles with standard Panasonic 18650 cells
wot?! it's just a huge package of AA batteries?!

Is this what the other companies use too?

>>14043537
Subsidies for luxury cars is obscene.

If subsidies are still necessary to drive investment in electric cars, they shouldn't be applicable to +40k vehicles.

>>14043552
>subsidies for luxury cars is obscene

Really? I've never heard that. Care to show me?

>>14043549
>wot?! it's just a huge package of AA batteries?!

Basically.
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/34934-Pics-Info-Inside-the-battery-pack

Inside of the giant slab is a bunch of sealed modules. Inside of each sealed module is a bunch of individual Panasonic batteries all wired together.

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2013/10/tesla-awards-panasonic-4-year-7-billion-battery-cell-contract-anticipating-500-increase-in-production/

These are the individual batteries.

>>14043559
The Model S is a luxury car by any definition.

https://www.teslamotors.com/support/incentives

Those are government incentives. Can knock $10k off the price of a Tesla.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-04-02/tesla-buyers-making-twice-u-s-average-find-rebates-under-fire

>California’s incentives to purchase electric vehicles are under attack, as data shows most of the money goes to consumers who earn twice the national average yet collect cash rebates on Tesla Motors Inc.’s luxury models.

A big party of Tesla's business model is a tax scam for the rich, to get the government to pay for their $100k luxury cars. Reminds me of when the US government used to (still?) gives massive tax deductions to people who buy huge SUVs.

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>>14043549
most of them use larger flat cells
the leaf has 192, the i3 has 96
the model has 7000 18650s

>>14043572
Holy shit.

>>14043591
>The Model S is a luxury car by any definition.
I was in one a few weeks back, an 85S. It was neat at first but after driving it for a while the novelty wore off and it is actually really boring on the inside and the finish is really cheap. Also during my week with one the door handle broke, those folding door handles are retarded.
Stereo was garbage too. It felt like a 30,000 car with an iPad built into the dash.

The acceleration runs were fun, but, wore thin also because everything else what shit about driving it.

>>14043596
Round cells sound like they'd be less space efficient. Although maybe they just use that space for cooling.

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>>14043591
Oh, I thought you were saying all luxury vehicles, not just Tesla. Only thing on that I could find is if you lease a heavy vehicle for business use.

Also during my research it now makes sense how Tesla survives. Holy fuck they get a lot of money. Along with pic related, they get ~15k per Model S in carbon credits that other auto manufacturers need to buy.

>>14043596
What did the SLS E-Cell car use? That one looked kind of cool.

>>14043604
Door handles look cool. Never laid hand on one. That's disapointing.

>>14043559
If Norway doesn't subsidize, then I don't know

>no sales tax
>next to no annual road tax
>free turnpikes
>free ferries
>free street parking plus charging

For the same money as a Model S you get:
>320i xDrive 184 hp
>Volkswagen Passat 4Motion 190 hp

>>14042789
>all countries up to Canada
>more fuel per EV than my Thai motorcycle
Why aren't cars banned yet?

>>14043621
That's probably their whole point, to look cool. To make electric cars look cool. To make millennials want an electric car because it's cool. That's how you sell something like this to the masses.

>>14043615
>Also during my research it now makes sense how Tesla survives. Holy fuck they get a lot of money. Along with pic related, they get ~15k per Model S in carbon credits that other auto manufacturers need to buy.

Shouldn't the 'carbon footprint' of the vehicle have to include carbon generated from manufacturing (presumably high with the Teslas due to batteries) and of the carbon emissions from the grid electricity they'll consume? (obviously much more than zero).

>>14043625
I'd assume people drive long distances in Norway. That would suck with an all-electric. Plus I wonder how they stand up to Norwegian winters (besides issues with the batteries in the cold, and engineered-in-California neglect for shit-weather issues, aren't electric vehicles really inefficient at heating the cabin?)

>>14042789
Really informative / interesting if true.

>>14043643
>millenials
What millennial could afford a Tesla?

>>14043646
Yeah but how far and how detailed do you go?

The auto companies don't mine their own ores. They don't ship it on their own.

Idk, I'm not a politician or someone who really cares. I think a big reason that people don't consider and manufacturers don't admit is they have such a push for electric vehicles is to save money from taxes.

>>14043666
The absolute majority of Teslas, Leafs and E-Golfs being sold here are sold in the city where the winters are milder and the distances shorter. Very, very few people would even consider being a hybrid outside of the city where I live, let alone a full electric...

And they really do not like the cold. Living at Norways biggest ski-resort I keep hearing about people who have left their Tesla unplugged outside of their cabin for two days, with a 70% charge, only to return to find it sitting on 2% or similar charge without having been driven or used

>>14043727
>And they really do not like the cold.

Thats to be expected. Low temps slow down the charge carriers. Pretty much every battery will have diminished performance when cooled below its normal functioning threshold.
Its hard enough getting super duty batteries to allow an engine to crank over in some places. Parts of Alaska and Canada far enough north everyone leaves their vehicles running constantly to avoid cold start issues.

>>14043537
To be fair, you would have to remove oil subsidies, which would make electric cares *more* attractive.

>>14043690
They can't, but it's a dream car for many. They're desirable.

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>>14042650
>Not the anon you're quoting friend but you mean to say "fewer moving parts" not "less moving parts"

Less is fine.

>>14044158
It sounds wrong to me.

The whole reason there are separate words 'less' and 'fewer' is that they're used for countable vs. uncountable nouns.

"10 items or less", "15 minutes or less" are stock commercial phrases so are excepted.

Examples there like "Less people than ever", "He made less mistakes", "She's eating less cookies" are obviously fucking wrong. Only uneducated people or people who speak 2nd language would ever say shit like that. It's just not correct.

>>14044240
>"10 items or less", "15 minutes or less" are stock commercial phrases so are excepted.

Come to think of it, I think the reason "less" doesn't sound wrong when talking about amounts of money or time is because "money" and "time" are uncountable, and what you're really referring to in those cases is the amount of money or time not a specific total of dollars or minutes.

>>14042579
Well I put it in my IRA, so hopefully thrive

>>14043820
Some people struggle here aswell, but with winter-diesel, high demands for batteries with proper CCA, engine heaters and whatnot you learn to adapt

>>14044158
>Less is fine.

If you are illiterate.

>>14042579
if they die their costumer base would be fucked

also i think they did shit too soon, should of just built a few and see how they worked out in the wild

No. We should go for fission powered cars already

>>14044240
>It sounds wrong to me.

But not to others.

"eat fewer cheeseburgers" 703 results (google)
"eat less cheeseburgers" 26800 results (google)

Get over it, you're wrong. Never mention this non-existing rule again.

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>>14044254
>Dollars are uncountable

Sure, anon, sure.

>>14042632
>Can't research and build more efficient gasoline
>Literally been doing this for over a hundred years

Thrive, Musk is crazy fucking rich guys. Also, considering the world is using up oil at a ridiculously high rate (many estimate it will be all gone by 2050-2100), it may have already beaten other car companies to teh punch

>>14044727
>many estimate it will be all gone by 2050-2100)

This talking point about "peak oil" is a 100% fabrication. We have trillions of gallons of crude that we haven't even tapped yet.

>>14044739
>I have no fucking clue what EROIE is

>>14042579
i think it has a much better chance at success then it did 12 years ago, not saying it failed, I'm saying that the tech is starting to catch up

>>14044497
>"eat fewer cheeseburgers" 703 results (google)
>"eat less cheeseburgers" 26800 results (google)

Holy shit it's true. I'm not normally a 'perscriptiveist' or whatever about English, but this is utterly degenerate. I'd certainly have a much lower opinion of someone who used "less" like this.

p.s. I'm an English teacher.

>>14044727
Oil is crazy low right now.

But putting that aside, even if all-electric is the future, Tesla just isn't big enough to compete once everyone else gets serious about that category.

>>14042617
>the real answer lies in Ethanol
>burning food instead of eating it will solve the world's problems

>>14042701
Most of that waste is really fuel. When people realise that the proliferation ship has sailed - the Norks have the nuke now ffs - breeder reactors could come back on the table.

>>14042831
>Using an energy-dense storage medium
Goodness, how stupid.

>>14043625
There's no road tax in Norway to begin with.

>>14043646
>and of the carbon emissions from the grid electricity they'll consume?
No, that's silly. The manufacturers have almost no control over how much energy their products consume over their liftetime: it's the consumer who controls that and should pay for it.

>>14047700
you can make biofule out of non-edible plants, like hemp


i rather burn that than exploit lithium and other shit

>>14043528

Way to prove him wrong, dummy.

>>14047707
That doesn't address the land use issue.

>>14042993
>Tesla themselves are powering their vehicles with standard Panasonic 18650 cells
So I could rip apart a Tesla and have unlimited batteries for my vape?
What a time to be alive

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>>14042611
>bright neon windbreakers
still a thing
>pump-up shoes
still a thing
>curly shoelaces
wut
>Guns 'n' Roses
still got played at trendy nightclubs when I went to them in the early to mid '00s

Internal combustion engines are thermally and volumetrically inefficient as fuck

Until recently they couldn't start/stop which is inherent with electrical motors.

Batteries are literally the only thing stopping EVs. That being said, I think that Tesla's success is political. US politicians want electric to appear more viable than it is. The model S would be less successful without subsidies. Their upcoming 3 series competitor is going to have to be more widely appealing.

>>14042583
>suffer the same fate as the laserdisc

You mean lasting over 20 years as the superior format and paving the way to better technology that became accessible for everyone?

>>14047619
>but this is utterly degenerate

No, it's not. It's correct, good English. It always was.

"eating less cheeseburgers":"eating fewer cheeseburgers" = 63:1 ratio. It's pretty obvious that "eating fewer cheeseburgers" is the degenerate expression.

>>14047975
I can't tell if I'm being trolled or not.

>>14044616
Hey, so I am retarded, can you please elaborate?

How have we made better gas? Better refinement?

>>14049354
Higher compression, programmable fuel injection, variable timing, better spark and detonation characteristics, better machining tolerances, material science contributing things like resin coatings to reduce friction on moving parts.

I forget the name of the term, but a modern engine today has less fuel burned and turned into waste heat than one even 30 years ago, let alone 100 years ago. We get more actual power out of burning every gallon of gas than we ever have. Thats not even mentioning all the crazy experimental engines built specifically to increase efficiency.

>>14049390
Mating an ICE to an electric motor helps with this, since combustions engines can be made more efficient if they don't have to deliver good power over the whole rev/load range. You can make them optimally efficient e.g. at the higher end, and have the electric help out with power off the line and for passing.

>>14049390
>Higher compression, programmable fuel injection, variable timing, better spark and detonation characteristics, better machining tolerances, material science contributing things like resin coatings to reduce friction on moving parts.

You didn't read the entire post, aren't you?

>>14042628
>needing platinum in mass production vehicles
>other alternatives to are still in research phase
>needing a trained tech to put hydrogen in your car because a minor fuckup would be deadly

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Was going to start a thread but i'll post here.
Drove a Model S today, and holy shit I love it.
Instantaneous torque is so good, Ithought the i3 I drove was a quick little bastard but the Model S is legit rapid.

>>14042583
I wouldn't say so. Battery tech is improving and we will see increased range from EVs

>>14049457
The novelty wears off once you realize that otherwise it is a boring car to drive. And luxury wise it sucks too. That interior is shit.

>>14049511
I think the interior was okay.
Don't like the giant screen but I could get used to it. Can fiddle with the setting to get to to coast steadily like a normal car would.

Has a massive boot at least. IF I wanted to get a car strictly for commuting and puttering around town that would be it.