Masked antifa swarm at Berkeley rally

Goddamn, shits getting out of control. Stupid people in large masses scare me.

>>172583
>No against hate

>Hating nazis
>Hating Pro Trump supporters
>Hating everyting right wing

>>172583
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2017/08/28/black-clad-antifa-attack-right-wing-demonstrators-in-berkeley/
Even the Washington post is talking about this and actually recalling back to their previous attacks.

>Last May, 150 similarly black-clad agitatorscaused $100,000 worth of damage when they smashed through Berkeley protesting a University of California Berkeley speech by right-wing provocateur Milo Yiannopoulos. Portland, Ore., has been the scene of street battlesbetween antifa and white nationalists this summer. White nationalist Richard Spencer was sucker-punched by aprotester in a January video that went viral.And Inauguration Day 2017 in Washington D.C. was marked by violence when masked protesters burned vehicles, smashed windows and clashed with police, leading to 231 arrests.

Still, this section at the end is why I posted this particular article.

>Berkeley resident Kristin Leiumkuhler, 60. She, like others had turned out with neighbors for a peaceful rally but left when things got ugly. “We felt disappointed and surprised by how many people were not in any way discreet about being with antifa — in fact being very bold and prepared to be violent.”

Her complaint was with how they weren't "discrete" in their violence. Not that they committed it, but that they got caught. What a bitch

>>172626
Why surprised, the left regularly does disgusting things but as long as no big news outlets report on it it's all well and good.

Berkeley's football season starts this Saturday.

Inb4 one of the players calls them an "ANTIFA" and the game descends into violence.

>>172626
>Her complaint was with how they weren't "discrete" in their violence
she was complaining that they couldn't not be antifa for one protest and keep their violenceboners to the internet, learn some basic reading comprehension.

phase one: ignore all tyrants
phase two: collect more underwear

>>172609
They hate hate. What's so hard to understand?

Just testing. My first reply.

>>172630
step one: go to game
step two: point at random person in crowd and start screaming nazi nazi this guy's a nazi
step three: riot

>>172641
If that's true she chose her words very poorly. She doesn't seem to condemn antifa, just the boldness with which they go about those actions.

>>172695
>They hate hate
yeah, I do too. the difference here is I don't act like an emotional child in response to ideas I don't like

>>172609
I think you meant to say "hating everything to the right of radical left"

>>172695
They look like socialist fags who hate freedom to me

>>172695
>They hate opposing opinions.
That's more like it.

>>172609
Wow. Amerifats strike again!
>Liberal intolerance = tolerance
>Conservative intolerance = intolerance
Nothing but confirmation bias for people who preach egalitarianism.

>>172628
anarchists =/= the left

>>172583
>Ethno-nationalism is just really cool OK. We're not -actually- going to genocide people. I just think a pure race state is really cool and I wanna advocate for it. It's my opinion dude why are you mad?
>We're not violent, we just want to take people with homes and jobs and make them refugees by threat of state violence, not terrorist violence. Way different.
>So what if they're torn from their friends and family? Trump said they were rapists. And they're stealing all the jobs I don't want to do!
>Trail of what? Those redskins had it coming by living in the land that my ancestors wanted to move to.
>Why can't we just petition for all this in peace? You got a problem with my problem with free countries?

Apparently 8 years of left-wing executive administration is such an affront to your rights in a republic, that a cultural revival of nazism is the only response you can think of. And if it wasn't you that's participating, it's that you're actively making excuses for its sake? For 6 years, a republican majority held the legislative branch hostage from the rest of the government. Every bill from then on was a republican bill, because it had to pass two gauntlets worth unless it was an executive order. And hey, imagine that. Since your legislative branch makes it impossible for you to govern in the way you were elected to govern, you have to roll out a shitload of those.

Antifa wasn't even a spec on the radar until you cunts started with this bullshit. They were content to role-play layman's communism on the internet.You got guns but a handful of spindly tumblrista teenagers scare you. Buncha whiny fucking snowflakes.

>>172920
>And if it wasn't you that's participating, it's that you're actively making excuses for its sake?
Yeah, it's called free speech.

I'm only surprised that now that who gets to talk is determined by people who dress up in black and enact street violence, brownshirts haven't actually taken to the streets.

>>172920
You're trying way to hard with this /pol/ bait.

>>172920
>Apparently 8 years of left-wing executive administration is such an affront to your rights in a republic
left wing in what sense?
Obama had a mix of democrats and republicans in this administration. Even when democrats held a super-majority he aimed to include republicans in the legislative process. Hell of a lot of good that did him.

Can the police just start shooting them? They'd be performing a public service.

>>172936
Left wing as in what right wing media and politicians have been shilling him to be. That's the imagined affront, an alleged far-left administration.

>>172923
They have. Nazi and KKK regalia is worn in part or full by the more daring members of these rallies. Even that KeK shit that sperglords whine about being ironic. If they actually gave a damn about their image as satirists, they'd make an effort to apear as so. What you get instead are excuses from kids who never grew out of this for teh lulz mindset, and who haven't bothered to make an effort to understand how people's perceptions in the real world work.

This is a coalition with ties to stormfronters, neo-nazis, KKK members, and all sort of anti-social ideologue every bit as vile or worse as antifa. They draw file from the genuine strain of American contempt for anyone that doesn't act or look exactly as your Anglo-American does. They make no effort to disavow these allies. But they do hide behind their own milder self-constructed identities. As if they wouldn't be brownshirts the moment that it wouldn't set off a knee-jerk reaction of pure vitriol from the majority of the country. And that's the goal. There's always going to be edgelords, toothless ideologues, and people who just want an excuse to fuck shit up. But you'd be naive to assume that there isn't a real push to make white nationalism and all of its consequences more palatable to the rest of America. This is a real political movement.

>>172695

That's still hate

>>172984
>>172923
And a lot of the country knows it. And that's why Antifa is a hell of a lot more comfortable being overt. And in being overt, they make themselves less harmful as allies. They aren't afraid to state that they wholeheartedly want to work for anarchism, socialism, or communism. If you're of any right mind though, you know these ideologies are full of shit. You know they're much too fringe. And you know that in the face of a real political movement towards any of these goals, that they'd meet the same reaction.

Because antifa represents a threat to my political goals as a more moderate leftist with right-wing sympathies. But they also represent a very concrete antagonizing force to actual bootlicking nazis in all but name. Those wormy little cocksuckers hide behind doublespeak and the "fact" that they haven't done anything while representing a long American tradition of violence steeped in racial prejudice. Antifa feel comfortable enough to storm the streets as blackshirt larpers because they are

1. Reactionary in public image, to a cultural revival of genocidal nationalism
2. Largely harmless in that their own political goals, outside of this nationalism, are so far removed from the american voting left.
3. Thus, palatable as a temporary political movement so long as a nationalist threat exists.

And the more practical among them understand that while widespread acceptance is far off, the publicity could net them some ground in long-term. And that's ground I'm willing to give as a moderate voting leftist in using *my* free speech to support them.

Now take a minute to wonder why I didn't excuse them as advocates of actual far-left ideology.

>>172985
I'm comfortable with my contempt for people who -choose- to follow an ideology which uses race as a pretext for violence and oppression. If all you can do is whine about flighty, abstract concepts, then you have no practical argument anyways. If you haven't noticed, hypocrisy isn't limited to those guys you don't like. Compartmentalization isn't avoidable if you don't want to spend your whole life being intellectually paralyzed for fear of contradicting yourself. It's only that the people you're excusing use this double think to push forward a platform of white nationalism. And they (Unlike antifa or other extremist fringe groups, which have been in operation long before this nonsense) have a chance to gain ground in the current political atmosphere. That's unacceptable.

>>172987
>Now take a minute to wonder why I didn't excuse them as advocates of actual far-left ideology.
You're a shameless, disingenuous propagandist.

>>172997
Fake news lmao amirite? And yes, shameless. I vocally support antifa for two reasons I've outlined above:

1. They're actively antagonistic towards white nationalism
2. The ideology they represent doesn't have the same, current foothold in american politics as white nationalism.

Their political philosophy is inexcusable. Given that it's taken to a logical extreme, it does actually represent the same existential threat that White nationalism poses to America's democratic tradition. The environment they create is either one that's an autocracy, or a power vacuum that's ripe for autocratic revolution. Thankfully, see point 2. Antifa will find that when the threat of nationalism wanes and they turn their teeth on the tradition of american government, they will lose the privilege of acceptability. And they return to being a bunch of irrelevant angry college students and edgelords who never grew up. Shameless, yes. Disingenuous though? I've admitted my contradictions here. I make no excuses for their actual ideology. And it's only in action that I find their activism palatable.

>>173002
So my final point is in acceptability. Nazis inhabit the same space that communists do as "the enemy" in our common American consciousness.

But the difference between them is that one group overtly claims their identity, while the other doesn't. The other seeks to distance actions and policy typical to Nazism, from the unacceptable platonism of Nazism. This is what more finally makes antifa acceptable, and re-iterates another point of mine: Antifa feels comfortable playing blackshirt because they are mostly allowed. They make no guise, so their reach is understood and accepted.

Real Nazis hide in the movement of white nationalism. And they use its rhetoric to bring about a system more widely sympathetic to their ideals, where they might be able to take the kind of political power they'd need to enact real atrocities. And they will do it if they are allowed to hide. But as long as antifa antagonizes the weakest among them to action, they lose the guise of respectability. And their ability to hide is eroded.

>>172987
>If you're of any right mind though, you know these ideologies are full of shit.
Socialism is full of shit?
What about Social Security? Medicaid? Medicare? All of these programs poll very high.
Every modern country but the US has a government organized pathway to full healthcare coverage, and yet the US pays the most for healthcare and has some of the worst outcomes of all modern countries. The only exception being cancer survival rates, and ironically those are high because of government intervention into the market (malpractice suits encourage US doctors to order more frequent testing than elsewhere in the world, so cancers tend to be discovered sooner which is often very valuable for combating them).

Socialism is always going to be the optimal answer, because a market economy with intelligent government intervention where sensible is always going to produce the best outcomes with respect to economic growth, quality of life, and protecting ecology because it allows us a system that accounts for the nuances of reality.

>>173010
That depends on what your opinion of the "democratization and socialization of the means of production" is.

I've never really seen safety nets such as these to actually be socialist in any way other than being beholden to elected representatives. And if that's your working definition of what's socialist, then a lot of stuff is socialist. They're redistributive, sure. But so are tax credits. They provide a safety net, sure. But Juvi is a safety net for criminal adolescents who would otherwise suffer the full force of law.

What is it that makes them socialist, and what is it that differentiates them from other areas of government in being so?

>>172991
Our current situation supports the growth of extremism on BOTH sides. When one side grows and becomes more outspoken, a resistance will form on the other and eventually you get fighting in the streets. Regardless of who started the fight, or even who wins, this is not productive for society as a whole. We can argue back and forth about who has the moral high ground, or who deserves to be attacked, maimed or worse, but that isn't going to matter.

The only way to stop this is to come together and honestly try to understand the other sides point of view. Yes, they may be misguided or poorly able to articulate their grievances, but until you know why they are rebelling there is no hope to stop the rebellion. And no, the far right does not actually want to kill all minorities to establish a white ethnostate just like the far left does not want to kill all elites to establish a communist utopia. Give the group's a little more credit then a simple strawman.

>>173006
Your entire point is that antifa is justified in their use of violence simply because the people they target are unwilling to embrace an ideology that they continually claim they do not believe? The fact that antifa continually tries to hide their actions, protect their members through shielding them with a crowd after they commit a crime or that all of them wear black and conceal their faces does not count as "hiding their identity?" You are taking the values which antifa claims to have without hesitation while choosing to deny those which the opposition claims because you have already deemed them to be Nazis and therefore they must be lying when they claim otherwise.

This is the equivalent of a school bully calling a weaker child a loser and beating him until he agrees. You are doing nothing more then seeding misery and discontent into all those you disagree with. I only hope you are prepared to reap what you sowed.

>>173006
>So my final point

how does it feel when you are a CIA bitch, who just sold his soul to american jews?

>>173022
You're right. Even within fringe groups, there is a spectrum. But people among them -do- want that. And the rest of them are willing to form coalition with those people out of a certain pragmatism. The nature of being a fringe group means that your choices are limited. I think it depends on how the inner politics of these groups play out. But that sort of disaffected ideologue that makes up a fringe's relative moderates is ripe fruit for the relative extremist's ambition. There's reason for caution there, even when giving support.

>>173025
Your point would be valid before 2016. This may come as cold comfort. But if Romney or Mccain's supporters had gotten this level of treatment, it would be absurd. The current right-wing's coalition may have been founded in part by resentment towards the civil rights bills in the 1970's. But the right that exists 40 years from then is a far cry from what trump's current support base is. And components of that right-wing have slowly been distancing themselves from his base. So this isn't about the whole of the right wing.

Charlottesville certainly wasn't. Charlottesville's right-wing representatives were chanting about being replaced. Those protesting were protesting according to the outspoken paranoia of some globalist plot to depopulate and de-seat the white race through immigration. And in safeguarding this conspiracy, must push PC culture. That is a clear-cut white nationalist ploy. You and I can speak here unfettered in any real way. Given that you aren't complicit in some treasonous plot, nobody is going to stop you from expressing yourself in places privately organized by you and likeminded people.

>>173053
>>173025
So the distinction of a public place is important. And any discussion of what is PC in public is essentially a negotiation of public, civil conduct. I believe that your behavior, which I advise against, is wholly uncivil towards my peers and I. Therefore, I cannot in good faith be civil towards you unless you act in these terms. To which, you are free to make a counter offer on what is and is not behavior that will cross the line that defines mutual civility.

But the assumption here is that white nationalist groups like protesters present in Charlottesville only operate under the pretence of civility, while advocating for something wholly uncivil. It's not that they're being forced to admit to something. It's that covert incivility is being met with its overt counterpart.

And the covert advocacy is written into the rhetoric. The words "you will not replace us" among others assume the pretenses that:

1 parties here will be defined by race
2 as a part of an overarching conflict between races
3 this is the doing of globalists who are
4 jews depending on if you'll go that far that
5 need you dead because you oppose them in an
6 overarching effort to
7 subvert western value and
9 deseat you from your rightful, current position.
10 or even deny you of your rightful, eventual ethno-state depending on your ambitions.

>>173059
1 and 2 both suggest that in being aware of this conflict, the white nationalist movement is prepared or preparing for inter-racial conflict.
3 and 4 are anti-semetic themes common, though not necessary, to this narrative. This is a direct borrowing from nazi germany. As globalists would have been consolidating their power since long before then for it to stand that they should have so much global power and influence.
5. assumes some universally white victimhood which would be pretty difficult to outline
6 again implies conspiracy, this time of the anti-white nature common to nazi rhetoric.
6-7 conflate the white nationalism that you specifically would be under attack for, with western value. Thus, claiming that nonwhites, through the machinations of globalists only want to see western values(and thus, the civilization founded on them) destroyed and replaced.
8 is that I should be sleeping
and 9-10 implies that sovereignty over western civilization is a pretense to whiteness.

Just using the damn slogans is pretty incriminating. And let's not forget, those at these rallies are not only those who couldn't bring themselves to be distanced from nazis. They're those who went through the trouble to go there and shout their support of this white nationalism and its pretenses. The entire thing essentially reads as justification for radical, racially prejudiced action. This isn't the meek nerd giving nobody trouble. This is that edgy asshole kid telling a jock that he hopes their girlfriend gets raped.

>>173053
There are aleays going to be extremists on both sides which form fringe groups. However these people would have no power without members. By supporting one fringe group, in their crusade on another, you are doing nothing more then driving people who would otherwise avoid their cause into sympathizing and joining forces. By supporting a violent group you are giving the opponent leverage. Martin Luther King Jr. understood this and that is why peaceful rebellion worked so well. You force the opposition to make you into a matyr and that will keep public sympathy squarely in your court. By actively engaging the opposition you are only fueling the hate on both sides and destroying any chance for peace. Stop the attacks, let them be stupid and they will dissolve on their own. The longer it drags out, the more power they gain and the bloodier it will be when they desperately lash out to try and retain their status.

The only reason we are in this situation is because the people within the movements FEEL they have been wronged and therefore are seeking recompense. It really doesn't matter whether they actually were wronged, all that matters is that they can leverage this as a way to recruit others who have similar thoughts. It is how cults form and like cults they become very extreme and potentially dangerous the longer they are allowed to fester. Instead of deriding them for their claims of "replacement," why not explore why they feel they are being replaced? Willful ignorance and violence will only lead to more ignorance and violence, while understanding will pave the way to peace.

>>173059
>>173061
What behavior? I in no way condone violence on either side and find your proclivity towards violence repugnant. You are free to disagree with others peacefully, but violence is always a last resort of self defense. Your actions create sympathy for the opposition and undermine your cause. Keep your fights in the arena of ideas if you want lasting victories.

>>173061
Though I will say that in the current and heavily partisan political atmosphere, you are not actually given much of an alternative to your representatives. That much is a lot to consider when on the fence in supporting them.

That is why it's important to urge conservatives to withdraw support from trump. In doing so, you narrow the white nationalist fringe and make them easier to single out. Whereas they are emboldened and strengthened by even the most passive support. Because it is your face what they hide behind when they need a more respectable alibi. But in provably being distanced from white nationalism, any aggression from antifa is no longer justifiable on those grounds. The group only hemorrhages from this, and risks losing the sympathy that enables them to act so overtly. This is just the same for the left. If the left fails to distance themselves from the establishment that Hillary and Obama represent, their legitimacy as a party is at risk. I should not support a peace president who expanded a program to kill people, often citizens, remotely. I should not want to be associated with the kind of cartoonishly villainous realpolitik of Hillary's campaign.

You are not that asshole kid. Your his on and off friend who got dragged into the situation. You saw a line crossed and the jock is rearing to go. But it's that kid that put you in this situation in the first place. And for that, you have no allegiance to him. He's certainly not doing you any favors in this situation.

>>173065
My opinion is that in supporting one fringe group, which I believe cannot sustain its own legitimacy without my conditional support, pressure is put on moderates to disown themselves from the targeted group. I do agree on the point of martyrhood though. But it's been a tactic of POC for a while now. It's got them a reputation of being whiners, crying wolf. Sympathies that was never had for victims of state violence, readily and eagerly goes towards the proponents of those violence, when made martyrs in rioting and protest. That's concerning. And not because of a disparity of opinion. But more in the overall lack of concern for any alleged target of state violence.

That's ultimately why I've been lead to question, whether or not the arena of ideas has really served liberal interests at all. Right wing rhetoric and its more fringe components have gotten very good at being disingenuous, even in the face of expert consensus, where at least left-wing rhetoric appeals to more often yield to.

So then maybe it's simply an expression of frustration in finding violence acceptable. I need to sleep on this. My support backfires the moment that more condemn-able nationalists are no longer the target. That much I can give right now.

>>173070
Fair enough. There is certainly a lot that needs to be done for society as a whole to truly be peaceful, but it seems you are recognizing some of the faults. We need to work on these faults where we can. There is a difference between the way the former generation of POC represented themselves and how the current one does, which is definitely not helping matters with them being taken seriously. There are many problems faced by the underrepresented that I have witnessed through my work, but we need to address the root causes and not simply apply a bandaid as we have been doing the past 2 decades. While I would love to go more into this topic, this is not the place so I will stop there.

I would also suggest looking to the past to draw hope for liberalism. The most cherished ideas of our ancestors, passed down across millennia, are almost always liberal, for their time at least. Democracy, Socratic thought, etc. are all liberal ideas which have become fundamental pillars of our society. While the right may rule the present, the left rules the future. Personally I feel a healthy mix of both is necessary. One to spur innovation and new ideas, and the other to reign in and temper those ideas into something truly extraordinary. Change over time is essential for a healthy society, but too much too fast is dangerous and will lead to ruin. Likewise, trying to cling to the past is equally disastrous.

I'm not asking you to change your ideology overnight, just to try and be more open to others views. All people deserve your understanding and respect, at least until they do something which warrants them losing it. Only you can decide where to draw that line. Damn, I am starting to sound like an after school special.

These Soros paid Commie fucks need be lined up and executed.

/news/, I just want to congratulate the posters in this thread for making hands down the best thread I have ever had the pleasure of reading on this board. Long, well thought out posts with minimal insults and ad hominem and to top it off, you were able to admit the errors in your logic and take into account what other posters said. Bravo, /news/, this is what I had always hoped this board could be like

>>172695
they are terrorists.

>>172869
They are the left.

>>172920
I'm glad we were able to expose the left. Now you've got to deal with anti-fa.

>>172991
>t's only that the people you're excusing use this double think to push forward a platform of white nationalism
There is nothing wrong with white nationalism in a white society.

>>172583
"anti fascist"

"no hate signs"

>beat folks because they disagree with you

>clearly hate them

Funny how the same folks calling for white genocide and screeching about how everybody is "muh neonazi fash for da bash" but when called on it it's "white genocide is literally impossible, despite what the numbers say"

Like c'mon. So they're holocaust deniers, too? lolol They're pure projection. Anti-Israel "nazi haters" that actually have more in common with the founders of their party than 99.999% of those they try to beat up.

Poe's law has entered the real world, these guys are parodies of themselves.

>>172626
>leading to 231 arrests
Hopefully felonies, 231 less people voting next election.

yessssss

>>172583
Sleep soundly in the knowledge that the dawn will come. Rest assured that our leaders are watching over us. But beware. For it is only their vigilance that stands between our restful slumber... and the end of the world."
- The Voice of Reason, Closing

>>172583
There was another Berkeley protest thing? Does that city ever take a break yeesh