About fucking time, jesus christ how is one of the only real forms institutional racism left in America still allowed in 2017?
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/01/us/politics/trump-affirmative-action-universities.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=first-column-region®ion=top-news&WT.nav=top-news
>>163308
Good. Institutional racism needs to be abolished
>>163308
I'm generally left leaning and I think this is a good idea.
Diversity in and of itself is all right, but at the end of the day race quotas and this 'against merit' system are more evidence that schools in this country are getting progressively more greedy.
>government trying to solve a problem that government created
If a candidat has a unique cultural perspective to offer because of their ethnic background then I can see why a limited ethnic quota can contribute to the work of a public university while still being mostly meritocratic and enabling the majority to obtain the majority of seats at the institutuion.
>>163315
Afformitive action isn't necessarily a quota. If candidate x and candidate y both have identical credentials but candidate x was born with lower socioeconomic status, then candidate x is more impressive. So you'd give candidate x a few more points toward their acceptance.
Since socioeconomic status is heritable and certain ethnic groups experienced institutional discrimination in the recent past, then a sensible way to compensate would be to give the folks boon to the disadvantaged community a leg up. That in the long term levels the playing field and contributes to a more meritocratic society.
>>163336
>If candidate x and candidate y both have identical credentials
Bullshit. There are enough white and asian students in the US that are way better than spics and niggers to fill the top 25 best unis.
>>163336
Not all cultures are valuable or conducive to academic production. Therefor a rigouous score based merit system that is blind to the person's appearance is the most appropriate
>>163336
It's not like that, though.
Most of the time, it's Candidate X has slightly lower credentials than Candidate Y but X came from a poorer background. Then the playing field is truly level, and schools constantly will pick based on a race quota or whether they need a number fulfilled.
Now righties are retarded and get mad because liberals occupy all the top schools and there are a good number of smart white/asian/black whatever kids in them. But there are also a lot of picks that make no sense other than to write a success story and to draw more good publicity to a school, especially in the case of sports (college football is ridiculous with how many morons can find a spot in top schools) and diversity. Come on, dude, meritocracies aren't born from constantly giving poor people who are not at the same level as the elite free shit, even retarded football players have some concrete reason to go there.
>>163371
We don't need a "level" playing field. We need a common standardized playing field. If ones race (because it's race, not wealth, being looked at) gives advantages then it sets an arbitrary and unfair precedent - the color of your skin gives you an edge.
A wealthy black student has an unfair advantage over a poor asian student, wouldnt you agree? So it's better to not operate in that line if thinking - it's better to simply give grades and accept students blind to their ethnicity and race.
>>163374
>don't need a level playing field
That was my point. A level playing field is what education boards and everybody generally try to avoid because it's bad publicity because they are going to select the minority or fulfill the race quota and need to sweep it under the rug. The problem is they occur all too often and liberals love abusing the term even where it barely applies so they can turn to race quotas.
>wealthy black over poor asian
I think we're talking past each other. 'Race quota' is just a buzzword, schools need to fill up their incoming students with certain groups to maximize profit with the state or surrounding community or alumni projects or whatever, one such thing is appeal to race, which often takes precedence over other, actual skills. I think we both agree that race blind acceptance, or at least acceptance that takes race too much into account, is a good thing
>>163374
>If ones race (because it's race, not wealth, being looked at) gives advantages then it sets an arbitrary and unfair precedent
But this is exactly what we had for centuries. Affirmative action is some effort to counteract the inherited disadvantage of those communities from when they were discriminated against.
>A wealthy black student has an unfair advantage over a poor asian student, wouldnt you agree?
Sure, using economic affirmative action instead seems fair enough to me if motivation to achieve is something under consideration by those vetting candidates. I'd rather we have a social safetynet to ensure american children a basic standard of living but failing that, it seems useful.
>>163388
affirmative action is trash because it actually dilutes the effectiveness of any organization it's in control of, IE all of them.
deliberately hobbling organizations, especially ones important to the survival of society due to the possibility of hurt feelings is fucking retarded.
>>163371
Sports scholarships in top colleges are about the only true meritocracy there is. You either can play at the level needed or you can't. That is all that matters. The school didn't recruit them to be academics and many of them don't give a damn about education beyond what is needed to keep playing.
This thread was here... before..now its gone...
>Conspiracy
>>163336
Socioeconomic status should have any bearing in acceptance in education.
It is nearly impossible for two people to have the exact same credentials.
>>163388
> Affirmative action is some effort to counteract the inherited disadvantage of those communities from when they were discriminated against.
It comes out then, it's reparations.
In this day and age it is well past its prime, it is inherently racist and full merit should be used not race.
what about legacy admissions
aren't those extremely unfair
why pick on minorities when people who are already advantaged being given a bigger advantage
also my state CA ended affirmative action long ago and whites are now underrepresented in a number of universities. Because there are literally hundreds of millions of Chinese and Indians who are competing for the same seats at top universities and if you're going to have merit based immigration a lot of those kids have succeeded at the top of a country wide class of a million
>>163769
>why pick on minorities when people who are already advantaged being given a bigger advantage
Because that is not whats happening. Minorities have a bigger advantage.
I see no problem with having more Chinese and Indians in school if they are better. Those that are better should be rewarded. Some people aren't made for college.
>>163308
>>163312
THIS IS NOT INSTITUTIONAL RACISM. It's not racism at all, it encourages a level playing field more than anything else. affirmative action primarily helps those who are at a basic disadvantage (because of ACTUAL institutional racism over the last 150 odd years) compete with people (mostly white) who don't face the socioeconomic challenges of being born into a minority family.
Plus most of the people making these decisions are white anyway so claiming it's racist against white people is the dumbest fucking thing I have ever heard.
>>163338
>spics and niggers
Your choice of words betrays your inherent bias
>>163949
Asians are very negatively affected by affirmative action due to their high achievement. Care to explain how that is not racist?
>>163949
Institutional racism is an extreme term by kids from /pol/, but it's not a level playing field. What affirmative action means is that when you have a black kid and a kid from another race at an equal socioeconomic standing, the black kid wins. Liberals also have manipulated this quite a bit to allow a black boy who's done poorly compared to a member of another race and then claim they're equal. If anything it's racist to assume the black boy will do worse naturally than the member of the other race.
I'm all for allowing kids from poor minority families to succeed at a much higher level if they have the capacity for it, but affirmative action is not that, it's easy handwaving and one of the many problems with American education
>>163978
Government action shouldn't be about individuals, it's supposed to be about the population at large. Statistically, black students are less likely to get accepted at a University or job simply because they're black, regardless of accomplishment. There have been a ton of studies like this (https://www.povertyactionlab.org/evaluation/discrimination-job-market-united-states) that show that this happens all over the USA and elsewhere, regardless of what the application is for there is bias against black people.
Affirmative Action isn't meant to fix institutional racism. It's meant to counterbalance very apparent racism in society at large.
>>163949
It's discrimination based on race i.e. illegal.
>>163332
underrated observer
>>163949
>Plus most of the people making these decisions are white anyway so claiming it's racist against white people is the dumbest fucking thing I have ever heard.
To use a term the left likes to use, it is called "internalized racism" which is basically the stereotype of the self-hating jew. Add to this the whole saviour complex and the love of guilt the left has and you arrive and these boneheaded regulations.
>>163308
I've been reading for employers affirmative action had been having the opposite effect, as in hr people would rather lose the tax break than interview a black person. I know at least there was a woman that did a little experiment where in the race questionnaire on job applications where with the exact same qualifications she compared the number of call backs from applications where she clicked a non white race or do not wish to answer, vs where she clicked white and found she got more call backs from when she clicked white.
Yes because International Russian students are being discriminated against! We must fix this
>>163332
>>government trying to solve a problem that government created
The government isn't monolithic across time; administrations change as per the whims of the electorate.
>>163949
>most of the people making these decisions are white anyway
jews actually.
>>164018
>it's supposed to be about the population at large
Why? We are individuals not collective blobs.
>black students are less likely to get accepted at a University or job simply because they're black
Affirmative action is not about making sure admission rates for blacks with the same grades are equal, it is about getting blacks with lower grades admitted.
>https://www.povertyactionlab.org/evaluation/discrimination-job-market-united-states
http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/ct-bias-hiring-0504-biz-20160503-story.html
>New research on hiring bias found resumes bearing names traditionally held by blacks and Hispanics are just as likely to lead to callbacks and job interviews as those bearing white-sounding names.
I am sure racism is alive and well down south. Though what are you going to do? How much should blacks, hispanics, women and other groups be favored?
The best solution for everyone is to boost free markets. Lots of jobs and opportunities will open up and they will have to hire the objectively best applicant just to compete.
>>164208
>muh russia.
>>163949
It is Institutional racism you moron and there isn't anyone alive today that isn't equally protected by the law. Nobody other than whites or Asians are at a disadvantage in hiring process because of their race.
Stop making excuses for black failure.
>>163978
No it really isn't an extreme.
Affirmative action is literally the only form of institutional racism left.
>>164018
>Statistically, black students are less likely to get accepted at a University or job simply because they're black, regardless of accomplishment
Totally false. There is no evidence to back up this claim however there is plenty to make the counter.
>>163308
Noe of you guys know what any of this means at all.
>>163308
The black guys I've taught in college absolutely shouldn't be there. For the most part the black girls are pretty good though.
>>165275
Sports scholarships are a bitch
>>165275
>>165281
The majority of them aren't there to learn and the schools really don't give a shit so long as they win at sports. The only reason they even have classes is because the NCAA requires them, and even then the schools find loopholes. Just look at UNC offering fake classes to keep the athletes on the field.