Name a more appalling transportation infrastructure boondoogle

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>>986308
We have whats going to end up being a $4 Billion boondoggle, simple because one end of the city has serious entitlement issues.

>>986335

Could you summarize it for me?

Easy: Berlin Brandenburg International Airport

>>986342
Basically we had a fully funded plan to replace the Scarborough RT line with a new 7 stop LRT line. However when Rob Ford was elected he poisoned the transit well by saying that Scarborough deserved a subway, and that building an LRT there would be treating them like second class citizens. So the $1.4 Billion LRT plan was replaced by a $2.5 Billion extension of the Bloor-Danforth Subway. The new extension would have 2 stops until the Councillor for the area requested a 3rd be added for an additional cost of $100 Million. So now the City is going to build a $2.6 Billion subway extension that will only carry 7,500 passengers during peak periods (the TTC states that a Subway is only justified when ridership is in or around 15,000 riders per hour).

However the fun doesn't stop there. The costs kept climbing and LRT supporters kept yelling until a sort of compromise was made. The City dropped two of the three stops from the subway extension and the money would be used to build the Scarborough Malvern LRT (a plan that disappeared after the recession). So now we have a 1 stop subway extension and an LRT to serve the eastern end of Scarborough, Now comes the most recent engineering report that shows that the Subway extension will cost $3.5 Billion to build. So now there is literally no money to build the Scarborough Malvern LRT and Scarborough is only going to get 1 subway stop. We turned down a (PROVINCIALLY FUNDED) LRT line that would have 7 stops and cost $1.4 Billion for a $3.5 Billion subway extension with only 1 stop and half the ridership a subway needs to be justified. Thats the jist of it, there is a lot more to the story.

Houston Metro rail.

Texas needs better highways, not transit.

>>986385
>I-35 takes 15 gorrilion years to fix
>mostly because Texas only spends federal highway money in a annual boom bust cycle to prevent incurred debt
>thousands of more residents per year using antiquated highway
Texas's government continuously ignores the needs of residents, Houston is a shithole that's getting congested just like the LA-Orange County metro. Highways will only make it worse down there, train infrastructure might make it slightly better but that's doubtful.
Bullet trains connecting major cities in Texas would be amazing.

Who needs to go to Mirabel? Isn't it just for cargo?

>>986453

Yes. But I was referring to Mirabel itself, not (just) the highways to it. It was originally a passenger airport designed to replace Dorval, but failed miserably. the

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>>986308
>TRRAMM

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Easily PATH WTC station. $4 billion dollars and not a single clock or bench. We can now measure future boondoggles by how many WTC stations it could fund, ex. East Side Access has ballooned to 2.5 WTCs.

>>986308
The process of maybe adding a 3rd runway at Heathrow has been pretty fucking atrocious.

And then there's the fact that they're deciding between a 3rd runway at Heathrow OR another runway (and significant reconfiguration of facilities) at Gatwick when it should very clearly be both.

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>>986651

why measure in WTCs when you can measure 96 micro-hitlers

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>>986308
take the cost of your boondoggle and add a 0 to the end

pic related

>>986373
The LRT compromise you're talking about is the Eglinton East extension. It doesn't even go to malvern nevermind not crossing the 401

>>987017
I know but the extension is essentially the Scarborough Malvern LRT. I don't really see how the TTC could effectively run the EC from UTSC to Mount Dennis (or even Pearson) as a single continuous line.

>>986798
Even though adding equivalent airport and highway capacity would cost twice as much.

>>986798
California literally needs this. The current infra simply can't handle the demand and like >>987048 said upgrading existing capacity is far more expensive.

>>987059
And in the case of airports extra pointless because using slots on better connections to other parts of the country is better than on northern-to-southern California flights.

>>986373

Fuck, I lived at Gerrard & Main in 98-99 and I never believed they'd do anything for transit through Scarborough.

But I had no idea it turned into that kind of epic clusterfuck.

>>986651
East side access is needed. Just like the 2nd avenue subway and Brooklyn trams are needed. And fare reform, integration of LIRR in the city and SBS.

>>986798

Non-American here. I looked at that logo and thought, what, Obama Train?

HSR shills just shilling everything CAHSR says without even thinking that they might be blatantly lying the whole time.

>>987048
No it won't. At this point $100 billion is a pretty conservative estimate for HSR cost

>>987059
Besides traffic into and out of LA and SF, there is basically no traffic in between. There are also basically no people in between so that shouldn't be surprising

>>987065
They can also increase capacity and lower cost per passenger by using larger planes, but they don't have to. Airlines need hourly or better flights to stay competitive on LA<-> SF

>>987068
Like I said thats just the start of it. I didn't even mention that one of the reasons the Subway plan exists is because people didn't want to make the transfer at Kennedy or have to ride shuttle busses for 5 years. Also (and im not even making this up) the whole plan was literally drawn on a piece of paper. Someone from the city littearlly took a screen shot of Scarborough and drew a line on it from Kennedy, then presented it to the TTC and asked How much it would cost. It was only after the engineering reports that we found out that the Subway would require a deep bore which shot the cost through the roof. Right now the City has chosen to have an outside third party finish the designs and pick the final alignment of the route. Hell even the City planning department doesn't agree with the plan as it currently is.

>>987025
I can see it being one line, they'll just short turn some trips at various points. If anything it'll probably be as bad as the 501

>>987068
Amalgamation has not made things easier surprise surprise

>>987079
Not only does it now require deep bore but to "keep costs down" they want to do a single big bore to fit both tracks. Also a city council motion was put forward to study using the RT alignment for at least a portion of the route, which was already ruled out

And all of this is happening when the subway line that should be happening is the relief line to relieve the congestion at bloor and Yonge. Transit in Toronto has been a shit show since the 80s and it's not looking too good for the future

>>987079
Also from a personal point, the fact that they got rid of the station on Lawrence East pisses me off to no end. Lawrence East station as it is today already handles about 8000 passengers a day and while its not exactly a lot it does make up a big portion of the SRT's ridership. However ridership aside what pisses me off (and other Scarberians) the most is that with no station on Lawrence the enitre corridor has been cut off from the Town Center. The city expects that people will just use SmartTrack/GO RER but the porblem is that most people won't like having to wait 10+ minutes for a GO Train and it does nothing to connect the area to the Scarborough Town Center.

>>987082
Steve Munro did say if you're going to insist on a subway in Scarborough then don't do retarded shit like cutting out Lawrence East. Also as someone who commutes from Greenwood, there's no way I'm going to be able to squeeze into one of those sardine cans, it's bad enough as it is already.

SmartTrack is a fucking scam plain and simple

>>987081
Hopefully the final alignment is moved. I have never agreed with the McCowan alignment and now that there won't be a stop at Lawrence there is litteraly no reason to run the Subway up McCowan. The alignment I hope gets shifted to Brimley especially since the city is so hyped on trying to find cost savings for the extension.

As far as the DRL is concerned the city is moving with it but damn are they botching it up. Metrolinx has said time and time again that the DRL MUST go to Don Mills but the city is having none of it since they don't want to eat the cost. They have however authorised that future plans for the DRL include the northern extension of the line. If we can't get the line all in one then we should do what we did with the BD and open the first phase while the rest of the line is still under construction. If anything maybe we should hand the project over to Metrolinx like with the EC and FW LRT since at least then we know the City wouldn't be able to fuck it up.

>>987075
You're fucking retarded. First off, the current HSR estimate is ~$68 billion. The baseline estimate for equal capacity in new highway lanes and airport gates is >$120 billion.

And using big ass planes on regional routes is inefficient as fuck for airlines. There's a reason they avoid doing it at all costs.

>>987086
If they don't want to make provisions for another extension or stations in between, then fuck it whichever is shortest

Metrolinx is suppose to independent and arms length but we both know thats really not the case

>>987083
SmartTrack is litterally GO RER with a few extra stations. It will still operate at RER headway's. Hell the city planning department essentially spelled out that because of GO RER the subway should never move beyond STC (that and a stop at Sheppard would draw development away from STC apparently)

>>987090
DumbTrack was suppose to be "surface subway" with 5 minute headways but that's physically impossible at union. The whole thing smells like a fucking con (not including RER)

>>987089
Personally I have a love hate relationship with Metrolinx since they can do some pretty stupid shit (see Crosstown station names), but god damn at least they don't have to deal with the cities shit because of those delicious crown rights. If they could get the DRL built without city interference than that would be the best outcome. However given there current position that won't happen.

>>987092
Well yes the province could dictate to the city whatever they wanted (cities are creatures of the province) but they'd find themselves in a very bad position come election time

>>987091
Tory tried to sell us an S-Bahn and fucked it up. I have nothing against GO moving more towards an S-Bahn style setup and hell I wouldn't doubt GO RER is the first step in that, but Tory did nothing to help the situation.

>>987094
>they'd find themselves in a very bad position come election time

Only if they don't cater to the burbs. Sell the DRL to the suburbs and watch the votes pore in.

>>987095
Tory saw what the province was doing and piggy backed on that to get elected. And the thing has evolved so many times into different things it's ridiculous, like I said a con. I really hope it doesn't delay RER anymore than it might have already. I was at Milliken GO a few weeks ago and it looks like they're working on adding the second track.

>>987096
It's not only the burbs I'm worried about, it's all those other opportunistic MPPs that pop up and say that Toronto gets all this shit and why they don't spend in other irrelevant towns

>>987097
Well thats just a natural problem will have to deal with. Bumfuck nowhere Ontario will always be angry that the province invests in Toronto but they have no problem eating up all that Toronto tax revenue.

Maybe some of this could be avoided if the Province just let Toronto create its own municipal tax. For all the good Metro did it was still pretty damn useless since it lacked the most important powers. Thats never going to change though. Even with the GTHA exploding a regional Metro council for the GTHA makes to much sense but if it ever came to be we know the province would gut it of all the real power.

>>987070
Obama Train would not be an inaccurate name. IIRC, California's rail project is what remains of what was supposed to be a much larger high-speed-rail stimulus package.

>>987098
City council needs to agree on revenue tools (and passing motions to ask the province to amend the City of Toronto act). I was under the impression that the Act already allowed the city to implement a municipal tax but I could be wrong

>>987100
Yes my mistake, according to the City of Toronto Act 2006 the city does have the power to impose a tax as long as it is a "Direct Tax". So this just comes down to the cities refusal to implement new taxes save for Property tax hikes.

>>987104
This debate happened I think a year or two ago, a report was brought forward on revenue tools and a lot of the councillors flipped out and voted it down (as expected). Of course now the TTC is facing an operation shortfall and Tory wants all city departments including TTC to reduce by 2-3% even after all the new service restoration, free kinds under 12, subway at 8am Sunday, etc. Boggles my mind

>>987105
It really does. Especially when you consider that Tory was at one time CEO of Rogers Cable. Clearly we see he wasn't exactly a good business man or else he would see that Toronto has a revenue problem not a spending one (unless of course where talking about the Police).

>>987087
You're fucking retarded if you actually believe $68 billion. That's also only for phase one.

>>987108
No shit you dumb fucking cunt. And yet you think $120 billion for highway lanes and airport gates isn't a bare minimum. No fucking matter how you cut it, adding equivalent capacity with other forms of transport is much, much more expensive. Period.

>>987075
>Besides traffic into and out of LA and SF, there is basically no traffic in between. There are also basically no people in between so that shouldn't be surprising

Someone is not at all familiar with California, have you ever heard of Silicon Valley?

>>987558
There's already a caltrain, and it's pretty obvious he meant "SF bay area" not "literally the city limits of SF and it's all uninhabited desert past the Cow Palace until the city limits of Los Angeles"

When people talk about HSR they are talking about actual distances not a 45 mile shuttle. I mean they could and should up the speed on that thing, but still.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstate_422

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>>987558
>>987122
Tell me again how many highway lanes we're going to need to add? The CAHSR is totally and obviously pulling $120 million out of their ass

Also, remember that fixing local transportation problems in LA and "The SF Bay Area" will benefit more people than just those traveling between the two cities.

As it is now, the only thing "blended" operation is going to do to local transportation options is equivalent or worse than adding a handful more caltrains and metrolinks each day.

But really if you spent $100 million funding >50 miles of subway and light rail in dedicated ROW, you'll probably make a bigger dent in the traffic than CAHSR will.

>>990057
First point: most of that stretch in the middle is also the cheap part to build HSR in. Land prices just aren't very high there, and the terrain is amenable.
Second point: you picked a time when the traffic was light in the Bay. 101 is not usually that forgiving.
Third point: HSR should encourage patterns of use that you don't see currently. Using current patterns to justify saying that it isn't needed is dumb (especially as you're ignoring some of the current key routes: air routes).
Fourth point: it's a bad idea to only ever invest in the areas which have the biggest immediate ROI and the investment itself determines what the ROI potential actually is, and failing to take account of that stokes huge political trouble.

>>990057
Now that I think about it, that gap is pretty unacceptable.

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>>990618

You've got to be crazy if you think HSR is going to do anything for the utterly car dependent, depopulated, and crime ridden cities in the central valley. You can go take the bus to the HSR station in Fresno, but I wouldn't feel safe walking to the end of the parking lot in that shithole.

I know where the long term ROI is. It's in LA and the bay area, where the traffic is fucking bad, and we won't have the money to address our immediate needs for a long, long, time. LA's transportation plan goes has a 50 year schedule, but we need all of it now.

So yeah, we'll build a train line through a place with zero demand, that won't be competitive with air travel for end to end trips, and hope that it will somehow magically "encourage patterns of use," and watch LA and the SF bay area burn because they have no money to solve their pressing immediate problems.

If you want to "encourage patterns of use" I hear that subways are quite good at that.

>>990057
> comparing the purpose of HSR to the purpose of metro/light rail

Oh I see, you're retarded.

>>990766
> Metro can reduce congestion in the city, so people can drive from SF to LA without worrying about traffic
> Metro/light rail can help people get to the airport so they can fly from LA to SF in a shorter door-to door trip
> Metro/light rail, and local highway projects will improve access to underused airports, like SJ, allowing us to have more flights from LA to SF
> HSR and other highway and metro projects come from the same, extremely limited state budget
> Metro/light rail will promote strictly more TOD and transit use than HSR, in strictly more places
> HSR will not help people get to where they want to go in less time and less cost, but subways and light rail will

Yeah I get it totally not related at all. Any other projects we can spend money on instead of HSR aren't HSR, so we don't need to consider them.

>>986308
Goddamn fucking stupid West Islanders being entitled shitbags are making the REM head north instead of along the 20. There's literally nothing by the 20. Just dirt and unused construction equipment.

>>987099
CHSR operates without subsidies. It's required to by law.

>>987087
>using big ass planes on regional routes is inefficient as fuck for airlines
Have you heard of a country by the name of Japan?

>>990942
Heavy long distance high speed rail and local light rail and metro do not serve the same purpose or function in the same way.

Stop pretending that one is an alternative to the other.

>>992310
And guess what... those routes are operationally less cost effective.

Not to mention that the number of regional routes you can substitute with larger aircraft is extremely limited because of the very limited number of gates that can handle such aircraft.

>>992319
>Not to mention that the number of regional routes you can substitute with larger aircraft is extremely limited because of the very limited number of gates that can handle such aircraft.
That's a dumb argument. The more traffic at an airport that uses larger equipment sets, the easier it is to justify building the gates to support them.

You also don't need that large a gate unless you're in a real hurry. You can do a lot with a small gate and some buses, but that's not a popular option in north america (but that's because you aren't real keen on efficiency).

>>992691
Many airports simply can't drastically increase the number of gates capable of handling large aircraft. If the economic model to fly a ton of large aircraft on short, domestic regional routes made sense, it would already be done in masse. But it isn't.

>>992318
Yeah and a train that makes stops in the central valley doesn't serve the same purpose or function as air routes from LA to SF.

>>992319
Looks cost effective enough compared to the shinkansen, which is way better than CAHSR can ever hope to be.

Train tickets are actually often more expensive than airplane tickets in japan, but the shinkansen has really good local connections and often a free local transfer.

>>986308
>let's build an airport in the middle of fucking nowhere but not build metro rail or convenient freeway to get there

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Moving
Africans
Rapidly
Through
Atlanta

Only in Fulton and Dekalb counties. Other counties run separate bus services and keep out MARTA.

rail system is very limited.

>>993010
Depends entirely on how many stops it makes. If it's few short stops then it can absolutely serve the same purpose. However if they get cucked into having to stop in every single town and village along the way then obviously not. But that would ruin the entire idea behind HSR anyway.

>>993022
>blended operation
>stops in central valley
>FRA compliant
>freight ROW
>Tehachapi Pass
>low frequency
>blended operation
>>>>>ruin the entire idea behind HSR anyway
yes