What are the advantages of streetcars?

>>1013406
Without dedicated right of way, there are literally no advantages over trolleybuses.

>>1013411
This.

I think the appeal of streetcars is mostly aesthetic. If they ran on their own ROW they're pretty efficient and can also hold much more people than even a 60ft artic bus.

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>>1013406
>>1013411
A bus can have a ROW just like a tram could. Their main advantage is CAPACITY, since modern tram systems (Portland is one of the exceptions) allow capacities far larger than any bus ever could. Here in Barcelona our 2nd gen tram system allows for 60m long trams, which would carry over 400 passengers per unit. For a comparison, a double articulated bus can carry about 180, and will have many problems navigating tight corners.
There's currently a project going to extend the tram into the city center along a street where the bus lane is totally congested and buses slow to a crawl. The proposal is for one tram every 3 minutes (perfectly viable since traffic light cycles are 90 sec, ie one tram every other green light), which would add up to a capacity of about 8000 pax/hour (400 x 20). Right now there's about one bus (~80% are articulated on this street) every minute, which adds up to around 7200 pax/hour and generates such congestion that it's the slowest bus corridor in the city despite having a bus lane. Running more than one bus or tram or whatever every 3 minutes isn't a viable option in the long run, and would allow for just 2400 pax/hr.

>tl;dr a bus and tram in ideal conditions offer capacities of 2400 pax/hr vs. 8000 pax/hr.

Now the thing with ROWs is that if you're going to get all that capacity, and build special infrastructure, you want to take full advantage of it. That's why it's often said and quite true that a 2nd gen tram without ROW makes little sense. They'll just have even more difficulty navigating city traffic than buses.

>tl;dr trams can have much more capacity than buses, and ROW gets even more out of that. Non-ROW'd trams are a waste of resources

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>>1013424
Some small-sized systems still make sense. The tram in Bilbao is an interesting example. I remember a passionate discussion some time ago here on /n/ where it was debated wether the line made sense. Some anon offered good points against it, here's the scoop:

>uses 30m long trams which offer about the capacity of a double articulated bus
>runs mostly or entirely on ROW

The arguments against were obviously that it's more expensive and you could just build a BRT. However a BRT consumes much more space, since BRT lanes have to be pretty wide to allow good speeds, while a tram is obviously guided. The narrow streets would make it almost impossible for an articulated bus to run through at any decent speed.
Also this particular tram line has single track sections at either end, where it runs through some narrow streets, and the terminus is just a dead end in an alley. Being a tram it's easy to operate bidirectionally on the single track sections (they're 2 stations on either end, so it takes about 3+3 minutes and leaves 4 minutes for the driver to change cabins, for a total frequency of 10 minutes.
A BRT wouldn't allow the single track sections (or you'd need complex signalling which isn't standard with buses), and instead of a dead end would need turning loops at either end.
So in this particular case the tram makes sense not because of capacity, but because ir uses up less space while offering better speed and capacity than a regular bus.

Pic related is one of the termini for this line. The building on the left is a train terminus for the local narrow gauge lines (note the service connection to the rail lines, otherwise that alley is a dead-end). On the right you can see the single track section along the road.

>>1013433
What are your thoughts on guided busways?

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- environment friendly, no pollution, low noise
-low overall operating costs
-vehicles are very durable
-higher capacity than buses
-fast acceleration
-aesthetically pleasing
-tourist attraction
-can run in narrow streets, pedestrian zones and parks
- even heavy snow can not stop it

>>1013406
The modern US version of streetcar is literally a waste of money, I say that as a streetcar enthusiast.
Every otger country, when buildung a streetcar line, try to make it as light rail-esque as possible. Aka right of way, fast, capacity, etc.
Only US builds these slow useless downtown streetcar loops

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trolley buses are superior

>>1013483
troll

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>>1013442
Seems like a pretty pointles idea desu. BRT is already kind of shit because it costs about as much as a tram but needs more space, has less capacity per vehicle, and generally higher operating and maintenance cost. BRTs can make sense in some situations, like when buses run partly on highways, or on stretches using existing roads. Guided busway seems like even more infrastructure costs with little to no benefit over a regular BRT-style segregated bus lane which should allow speeds of 60km/h with no problem.

>>1013468
>>1013477
truth
tram is best urban transport. Most efficient and versatile. The world needs more trams.

>>1013483
They are great in hilly terrain. SF is a great example of ideal trolleybus environment.

>>1013406
This tram was built in my hometown of Ostrava in Czech Republic, it's really cool that they are ran in US.

>>1013503
>The world needs more trams.

It is sad that they were long seen as obsolete and legacy even in many the cities that ended up keeping them, so little improvements were made to the systems, improvements that would have cost peanuts compared to heavy rail and road projects that were going at the time, might I add.

Some German cities thankfully did and now they have excellent light rail systems with wide coverage, the rest of the world is playing catch-up.

Orlando here.

We have something called LYMMO which is a BRT system, currently comprised of three lines and possibly more to come in the future, the oldest being a dedicated line separate from traffic, and it's all free to ride.

The sad thing is what it could have been: in the 90s when the first line was being planned out, it almost became a streetcar line. The city even bought a streetcar that originated from Brazil to jump-start things but not enough funding happened so we ended up with BRT. The buses are somewhat different than the conventional buses LYNX (the parent transportation company) uses, and I can't really complain too much since it's free to ride.

Ridership has been slowly, but surely increasing in recent years. In fact, the second line didn't exist until a year or two ago, and the third line began operations earlier this year. Hopefully in the future these BRT busways can be laid with tracks to create what would be Orlando's first tram lines, which historically never had any. As much shit as Orlandoans give to their neighbors in Tampa, I'll always be jealous of their streetcar lines.

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>>1013548
czechfag living in Trondheim here, everytinme I see tram thread and see how 1/3 of worlds trams go from CZ, I am proud beyond measure.


here is a moody picture of the only line in Trondheim, it is currently northernmost tram in the world and I sure hope they will keep it going. People love it in winter when it doesnt struggle like the busses to get uphill.

>>1013611
Jeg skal fortelle deg noe unge dame, for jeg er litt eldre enn deg. Dere skulle vært glad for at vi brukte disse toga deres! Hadde det ikke vært for oss fotfolket, så måtte dere pakka sammen disse skinnegangene. Også kunne dere sittet der, holde jeg på å si; med oredobba i postkassa. Det er vi som gjor at dette, holde jeg på å si kan fortsette som det gjor, ja. Så du skulle skamme deg, å komme her til et voksent menneske og forlange 20 ekstra kroner. Det skulle vært balalaika-syngende blondiner som tok vårs imot, som sto der med kaffe og Vestlandslefser. Som sto der i sine paljetter og sa: "Velkommen, takk for at du bruker vårs". Her står jeg opp om morgen, unnskyld at jeg sier det, for også vise min kjærlighet for også holdte jeg på å si å gi av min reisende glede til NSB. Også kommer det, unnskyld at jeg sier det; en soldat i NSB uniform som trer et straffegebyr nedover mine forvorpne oreflipper. Takk skal du ha!

>>1013532
The older SF trolleybuses literally couldn't/can't make it up certain hills.

>>1013621
I am not very good in norwegian yet so I cant really tell if you are just quoting some literature or actually speaking in such... poetic way. Anyway I did probably lost the point. Can you sum it up in english please?

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A good, balanced read.

http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2011/05/25/the-silly-argument-over-brt-and-rail/

>>1013623
I doubt that.
Sounds like an urban legend to me.

>>1013611
Those times of massive production in CKD Tatra are long time gone, kamaráde.

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>>1013623
I suspect it has something to do with field weakening resistors overheating in the old style controller driven units.

Depending on the number of motots on the bus and number of armature windings on the motor, there could be only two positions in the power band where the field weakening resistors are not in use, if there was a single motor with a single with a single armature winding. (Extra armature windings would require extra commutators, so this wasn't commonly used.)

The field weakening works so that reduced armature current increases the speed, this would mean that there could be just a single single are on the power band, just above the middle of the band where the bus could climb the hill, and should the driver use a "notch" just below that band, it would generate the maximun waste heat, tripping thermoswitches and stalling the bus at the hill until the resistors had cooled.

Pic semi-related, fould schematics in Hungarian.

Trolleybus
>can go around obstacles
>mixes with traffic better
>can operate off-wire for short periods
>commonality with diesel fleet
>cheaper
>more flexible

Tram
>looks cooler

>>1013740
>>mixes with traffic better
>wanting to mix your public transit with traffic
>Tram
>carries more than twice the pax of a trolleybus
you should seriously consider killing yourself asap

>23 replies
>no mention of the greatest and longest running streetcar network in the world

>>1013681
It is well documented. On the steeper hills, passengers had to get out and walk alongside the buses until they were on less of an incline.

>>1013691
They were never able to make it up the steepest hills. It wasn't something that started happening as they aged.

>>1013750
If it doesn't mix with traffic, then it's just slow, shitty light rail, and you've done fucked up by not just building light rail.

>>1013788
Melbourne?

>>1013826
I think Americans believe New Orleans has the oldest conitunually operated tram line in the world or something.

>>1013798
>If it doesn't mix with traffic, then it's just slow
>doesn't mix with traffic
>slow
fullretard.png

>>1013838
Manx electric railway in britain is the oldest continually operating electric tram in the world. It has electric cars from 1894 in regular (albeit heritage) operation.

>>1013406
Capacity. Everything else is shittier.

Requires special dedicated, expensive and non-flexible infrastructure with tracks and power lines. Sometimes even dedicated corridor that can't be shared with other vehicles. Every time something needs to be repaired your trams stay in depot and you have to substitute... with buses.

Accident or breakdown? Well you and half of the city relying on this here radial can just fuck off because trams cannot pass each other. Buses come in to save the day if dispatchers react promptly. Right of way is irrelevant argument because it doesn't count on cunt Johnny being under influence.

>>1013877
>bus also needs dedicated, expensive and non-flexible infrastructure to get decent speeds, and low speed = low efficiency = more expensive
>per pax tram is cheapest with exception of non-ROW buses.
>modern tram systems have switchbacks and bi-directional trams, so in case of breakdown you only have 3 or 4 stations without service and partial service on the rest of the line
>if your tram network is reasonably extensive in case of breakdown you can just re-route lines
>tram will get stuck when there's a breakdown but a bus will get stuck in traffic if there's an accident and the road is blocked (which isn't even dependent on the bus operation)
>while a tram ROW would remain clear in the same scenario

also
>WHO CARES ABOUT PASSENGER COMFORT AMIRITE

>>1013468
>variotram
>durable
Inb4 the entire series is scrapped

>>1013953
Looks quite likely that they will leave the city gradually after spring 2018 if and when the maintenance contract with bombardier terminates then. The negotiations on extended period are still on-going.

At then, the youngest units will be just barely over 15 years and the oldest would be 20.

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I'm gonna post some shitty shoops of Variotrams, because someone online said something along the lines "what if we bidirectionalized them and then used them as reserve cars on the future light rail lines where the geometry is better and the cars should last".

He was shit down quickly, but these were made.

Suggestion A: turn the door units around and permanently link them back-to-back. Estimated lenght: 50 m.

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Suggestion B1: shuffle them parts more.

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Suggestion B2: what to do with the leftovers.

Previous lenght would have been 40m and this 34m.

>>1013411
What is a trolleybus

>>1013406
Maybe I'm just misunderstanding wikipedia, but what's the difference between streetcars with ROW and light rail?

Streetcars are sexier than buses. It's a scientific fact.

>>1014112
American terminology, who the hell knows.
BUT, maybe there are few differences, but it's not necessary. First light rail could have taller platforms and higher floor in cars, as your average subway has. Secondly light rail can work on different, more railway-like type of traffic control. While streetcar is basically the same as a bus - driver controls the car only according to his sight, nothing tells him if the line is occupied or not

>>1014115
Streetcars are sexier than your mum. Science, dude.

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>>1014112
there is no difference at all

>>1014112
Streetcars are typically slower, shorter, and may not have provisions for operating multiple units.

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>closed cars with doors that go fast

But then how are you supposed to jump on and off as you please exactly where you need to?

>>1013681
that might be for the better. It seems to me that the companies sort of survived the ninetees and are slowly gaining momentum in real economy. Of course was the production of T-3s and derivates for half of the world artificial demand and supply, or better just product of central planned economies.

That is why I am much prouder when I see the logos stamped on something new riding rails in some obscure city on the other end of the planet.

Mazací tramvaj vládne všem.

>>1013406

they don't leave clouds of exhaust gases.
also, they aren't late like the buses.

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buses and light-rail does not attract any tourists, trams do,

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>>1014642
>they aren't late like the buses.


good one

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>>1014873
I don't think you want to start an argument over what is a better tourist attraction...

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It's easy to make trams accessible as you can shrink the platform gap.

A crippled buddy of mine is stuck in his electric scooter when going outdoors. Taking trains and trams is easy; while the bus, even hypermodern low-floor ones, is begging for trouble.

>>1014873
We ain't talking about heritage lines in here.

>>1014874
A boy shouldn't run after neither a girl nor a tram because the noxt one will come shortly.

>>1014891
The buses here have a ramp that folds out (the top layer of the floor rotates up and then back down on the other side of the door) and they can lower that corner of the bus a good amount, so it ends up being a lot easier than the trams where half of them have stairs at every entrance and the newer ones with a low floor segment still have a pretty big gap.

>>1013426
>Their main advantage is CAPACITY
Less drivers per passenger. It's why unions hate them

>>1014877
Unions absolutely have a shit-fit over this. Modern technology combined with grade separated operation could lead to driverless operation. That's why we couldn't have them.

>>1013406
weird people ride them, like homeless people or people on drugs and it can scare you away and make you want to ride in a cage instead

>>1014112
There are two technologies, American and European.

America classifies vehicles by capacity, Light rail being low capacity (monorail, tram) and Heavy rail being high capacity (Metro, suburban, commuter, HS)

Europe classifies by vehicle type (Tram, monorail, metro, commuter, HS)

The problem is people don't realize this and confuse terminologies.

Also, you can have a type of train offering a different service as it was planned, for example London Overground (commuter trains operating metro services) or the German Stadtbahn (Metro trains running on the street/Trams running on the subway)

>>1015933
Terminologies*

>>1015594
>public transit in burgerland
what's it like to live in the 3rd world?

>>1015933
It all overlaps somewhat, and some systems can be more clearly defined than others. There's trams that also work as metros, and metros which work through services as commuter rail (like in Japan).

Light rail is theoretically synonymous with tram, but light rail is sometimes used to refer to systems with a stronger grade separation, often 2nd gen systems, but again, there's lots of overlap.

I think it's pointless trying to define every system precisely. There's some that fit any specific description perfectly, otherwise you just mention the specifics of any system (row or not, level of grade separation, metro-type operation on part or all the system... so on)

>>1013406
Comfy factor

Renewable energy applies here. I know there's electric buses but if you have a tram network it's easier to switch to renewables

>>1013611
Those goodl old times Kotas wasn't "designing" all these bullshit trams (and metro stations, seats, bus stations...)
That Trondheim line looks supercomfy.

>>1016083
You're missing the whole point about trams using less energy per passenger than a bus -- that's the whole bloody point of running a vehicle on rails.

>quieter
>larger capacity, as the rails can hold vehicles much larger than buses and not worry about losing maneuverability through articulation, as well as not needing a place to store fuel (though trolley buses have that last one too)
>much cheaper to build and maintain tracks that are only for streetcars/trams than roads exclusively for buses
>can put rails in places that you can't put roads
>less width than a bus
>doesn't pollute directly, only consumes electricity
>easier to drive
>can connect with underground stations by rail (here in my city, toronto, you can get to the main train station by streetcar and also to the ferry terminal, both underground.

>>1013503
Los angles BRT makes sense because they run at high speeds on dedicated ROW (85mph!) and act as normal busses with bus lanes for the city portion

>>1017369
I find it extremely hard to believe that a bus can run at 85mph, when highway-grade coaches barely get to 60-65. I don't think any highway in the world allows for speeds of around 85mph, with exception of places with no speed limit.

>>1017299
Busses can connect underground to subways. Technically the bus loop at Fairview is below grade

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>>1015933
I like the map someone posted in an old /upg/ >>1006341 that showed various urban rapid transit systems and for some reason included Erfurt's tram, just because it is marketed as a light rail by the operator.

>>1017369
Silver line goes highway speed and shares traffic with cars, and also operates on normal streets, but that part is kind of shitty and really bloats up travel times

Orange line goes slower, and has no shared segments, though there were some services in the past that used the busway. Currently no other buses use it though.

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Perfect public transport will connect mayor destinations in a city. Well planned tram lines can do this.

Trams/Streetcars are not simply (light) trains, to think of them as such leads to boneheaded planning.

Their advantage over buses, a better comparison, is their capacity and frequency and reliability and density

Their advantage over a metro system, the next possible comparison, is that you need a fair amount of density to justify a subway or elevated rail network which costs a fair bit of money. But a moderate to lightly populated area can therefore build an extensive tram/streetcar network and, along with a commuter rail system to the burbs, do just fine without a metro.

>>1019296
>Their advantage over buses, a better comparison, is their capacity and frequency and reliability and density

oh and efficiency, and pollution and noise reduction

>>1019297
Gotta play devil's advocate, trolleybuses are by far the quietest form of public transit. Trams are a clear 2nd place.

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Trams can even survive a nuclear bomb.

>>1013406
Fucking hell, they're building light rail where I live and I'm never to going to be able to use it.

>>1013406
>tfw a light rail line is being built on a major street right beside you into the downtown core
feels very very good man

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>>1022100
I feel ya. Tram is kinda useful, but more often than not it's easier to use the bus even though it's slower, or the subway which is less direct.

>>1025247
where in japan is this

>>1025250
Detroit, Tokushima

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>>1022125
That feel.

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>>1013611
thank you for trams czech-bro, this pic looks cute.

we have got a bunch of skoda trams in my city recently and theyre my favorites tbhfam

Mass transit should be an all or nothing thing. Either you go all in with heavy rail or just stick to buses. Do it right the first time and you won't have to come back 3 decades later and spend twice as much as it would've originally costed to remove the existing streetcar lines to put in something more competent. Mass transit in the US is a joke outside of New York.

Also fucking enact policies that cap ridiculous urban sprawl like Toronto.

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>>1027843
The point is to make the buses run as efficiently and productively as possible before spending wildly on a rail-based intervention. Just about every country in the world has figured this out except for the US, and thus cities large and small suffer from some of the lowest light rail ridership per km. Improving bus transit in America is a shamefully downplayed and ignored topic, not just for class-based but also bureaucratic reasons. Among mid-sized cities, only Houston has begun the work to optimize the network within the existing budget, with Indianapolis and Baltimore following. But who knows when the bus will truly see a renaissance on par with streetcars and light rail today?

>>1027843
The problem with your logic is that there are areas that won't ever reach the need for a Subway but have gone beyond what is reasonable for Bus service. In Toronto for instance look at Scarborough and Finch West. These are areas where Bus service can barely keep up with demand but won't reach Subway levels of demand in 30 years, or ever for that matter. Remember when Ford proposed a Subway on Finch and was laughed out of Council? It was because you don't build a Subway if it's only going to have 2000 passengers per hour. You know your plan is garbage when its ridership potential is lower than half of the Scarborough Subway Extensions.

As far as the TTC is concerned unless the service can generates at least 15,000 riders per hour like the YUS, BD, and DRL it's not worth the huge investment of a Subway. That being said if you have a service that is pulling something like 6000 riders per hour you aren't going to operate a standard bus service, that's just plain stupid.

>>1013621
Hva betyr det?