Sexism is still a problem in music industry

this is an 18+ website

4chan is the last place to discuss sexism. A bunch of introverted, awkward teenagers have not experienced anything in the real world. Think their lonesome Xxxtortellini listening sessions prove they are true vessels of depression.

>>75096434
yeah but
kanye talks more and is always embarrassing himself.
bjork problem isn't sexism. its just that she is very passive aggressive on what she actually does and then gets mad when shitty journalists fills in the banks for her.

anyway sexism exists in everything in this world. its cruel but until women start outperforming men by majority it's going to keep happening

>>75096434
I thought she was exaggerating things but after seeing people in Björk general saying how Arca did most of Vulnicura while it was the same thing as Vespertine (Björk was mostly finished with it and Arca came at the end), I started believing what she's saying is true

>>75096434
I'm not a feminist or anything (im even a little right-wing) but she's not wrong.

>>75096515
again thats kinda her fault. you don't see majority of ppl mentioning max martin co-writing for taylor swift on her releases.

>>75096550
The funny thing is that Björk probably does more work in her albums than Taylor Swift or Beyonce,

hers the deference: while kanye west does all of the music alone björk doesnt she needs somebodey

>>75096550
I'm pretty sure everyone knows of and mentions Max Martin's role in today's mainstream pop music so I wouldn't agree with that

>>75096434

It does annoy me when people say Arca did most of the beats on Vulnicura when it was pretty much done by the time he came on board. Same for most of her albums tbqh. If you actually read interviews with her collaborators they all say she takes over and they don't really do much.

>>75096577

??? Have you seen how many writers and producers were on TLOP?

>>75096564

Absolutely, she writes all the music apart from the odd song where there's a co-write, and records most of it herself.

>>75096580
i rarely ever do see fans ever mention tswift getting helped by max on any of her songs. or even reviewers?
but maybe im wrong then. sorry

>>75096701

I think most people just assume she and other mainstream pop stars don't write or produce anything all by themselves.

>>75096737
mostly this, it goes without saying that people like taytay don't write things by themselves

on the other hand, people are used to Björk doing all by herself so when someone jumps in to help it's immediately "OMG HE DID EVERYTHING FOR HER"

Beyonce's Lemonade had over FIFTY writers, producers and collaborators.

How can something like that be deemed her solo work and not a collaborative effort of a big team of people is beyond me.

>>75096888
And Adele cried when that album didn't win a grammy instead

>>75097621
Adele aka muh white guilt

>>75096888
I think that's a big problem with all of modern pop music, hip hop included. There are artists in the mainstream that are doing their own work, but so much of it is manufactured stuff made purely for consumption by the masses. It's like we're back in the Tin Pan Alley era.

>>75096434
>I'm not dissing him
yeah right
all dg fans diss kanye

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>>75096504
>until women start outperforming men by majority
so never

kek

>>75098964
im confident it'll happen very soon. would be interested in somebody like bjork or grimes writing and producing for male artists instead of vice versa.
she kinda tried it with dg

>>75096434
I really wanna fuck björk but I don't want to fuck any male artists. How's that for sexism

>>75098977
We will eventually end there. Don't know when, but eventually.

>>75096434
Give me a break. Beyonce doesnt write any of her shit and has the best beat makers from all around and people praise the shit out of her.

>>75098978
You are probably heterosexual or a lesbian. That's why.

>>75098999

It's not about praise, it's about getting credit for your work.

>>75096434
>Yet no one would question his authorship

Yes we would

>>75099018
i disagree. she still wants the praise. so her opinions on things can get considered.
if not she would have ended up like inga copeland or holly herndon being pretty much invisible to mainstream culture

>>75096434
I question his authorship.

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>>75098977
>>75098988
are you fucking kidding me? no chance. unless you castrate all males at birth, it's not gonna happen.

>>75099127
i think it'll happen. too many males are either whining about rock music being dead and disliking rap/electronic music. so all of that talent is too busy trying to revive old rock genres.

females are mostly above that since they never really felt welcomed in rock music. whereas electronic music as being more "friendly"

>>75096504
it stops happening the moment you stop thinking like that brother.

>>75096434
Of course sexism is still a problem. Look at things like the "Women are wonderful" effect. Absolutely outrageous, men deserve equality.

>>75096577
one of the most retarded posts I've ever seen on /mu/

the only ye album that was a one man job was TCD, and even then he didn't write the raps

>>75096888
>>75097868
I fail to see how collaboration is inherently a negative. You'll never see people criticizing Kanye for MBDTF which had like 387 people working on it. I get criticism for not writing most of your own album though (ahem, Taylor Swift and Travis Scott)

My point is I don't see how more collaborators = manufactured bullshit

>>75100605
>My point is I don't see how more collaborators = manufactured bullshit
its not
anybody who makes art acknowledges the fact theirs certain limits you can't do unless you're a special kind of person. thats when you hire people to execute your dream

>>75099099
I've heard rumors of Ye slowing a beat down or just adding a hi-hat and taking main producer credit

also, every song post 808s is ghostwritten, save yeezus

>>75100639
who wrote
bleach on the asshole t-shirt?

>>75096464
what's this?
a smart man? in my 4chins?

>>75100649
CyHi the Prynce and everyone fucking knows it

>>75100660
damn

>>75100639
I take that back, Cyhi wrote Yeezus too

>>75100605
>My point is I don't see how more collaborators = manufactured bullshit
I'm not saying it is. Obviously you need people with certain expertise to help craft a proper record. But there's a clear difference between what Bjork did with bringing in people near the end of production and with Kanye who get's these large numbers of producers and songwriters.

>>75100765
yeah but kanye himself gives props to his homies
bjork doesn't

>>75100765
yeah, Kanye spreads my faith in him pretty thin, although I try to give him the benefit of the doubt. Hopefully we'll see songwriters standing up for themselves similar to how producers have in the past two decades.

>>75096577
>I know nothing about any of Kanye West's albums
>seriously nothing, CD to TLOP

>>75100782
This is such bullshit.

She's seen here in the OP doing just that! She offers off her material to Death Grips, and involves literally all of her collaborators in multiple remix projects.
Showcases their works on her youtube and commends them in interviews and AMA's.

>>75100782
I'd like to see some interviews where he talks about the work Arca did on Yeezus please.

Even if Arca produced the whole thing on his own, it wouldn't matter, because the coolest thing about the album are the string arrangements anyway. Mouth Mantra's arrangements for example are insanely complex and beautiful and they were all done by her.

>>75100782

>>75102238 This. She never stops talking about how great Arca is recenty, and vice versa, they've become best friends.

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>>75096464
>Xxxtortellini

>>75100782
yeah so where's the yusef and cyhi and mike dean and jon brion shout outs

>>75096434
She's right and it is an issue.
There's also the issue of female acts being seen as sex objects above musicians which is visible in the threads here - though a lot of them play up on it for sales (and often rely on it to hide their lack of talent - e.g. Grimes - with photoshoots and dressing overtly sexually). It's a commercial market and that's the real problem. The art world doesn't have these issues.

>>75102749
>There's also the issue of female acts being seen as sex objects above musicians
I'm glad you pointed out that the issue is sex being above the music, and not sexuality in and of itself.

>>75096464
Talk about pot calling the kettle black.

>>75102794
Nothing wrong with using sex as a concept, but sex thrown on top of something to increase sales is a different story.
Could do a whole thing about the market and how men are targeted harder to consume historically because they have typically been the breadwinners while women looked after the kids and whatever. There's an ingrained societal issue there that gives rise to an association of women in the media as desirable sexually. But the big outlets that could be talking about that are too busy forcing girl power narratives that don't look at the root of the issue.

>>75102900
Do it, I'd gladly read through it.

>>75102967
I'll consider it. If anyone needs a humanities thesis topic feel free to take it.

>>75102484
>>75102314
>>75102238
wrong
kanye made a whole track shouting out the silver surfer
where's bjorks shout out on the record
oh wait it doesn't exist

>>75103141
Get a job kanye

>>75103168
no you get a job
he made a 11min song shouting out everybody who took a chance on him getting a record deal
where's bjorks homage to the ppl who put her on the map??????

>>75103196

Well Arca didn't put her on the map, but there's going to be a song about their friendship on her new album. Bjork's been in the same small indie label since the 80s, owned by her manager, I don't think she really needs to do a shout out to him.

>>75103256
i think she does buddy.
kanye did it
would be more interesting than the same ol songs she sings about.

>>75103293
Explain how this track would go down. How would it be structured?

>>75103354
imagine leaving LA like father john misty
but instead of a boring piano ballad we get some god tier string arrangements ambiently

bjork sings for 12mins talking about how she got into the music industry and dealing with the sexism and the ppl who helped her on the way. she also discusses her sadness and insecurities

>>75103396
At that point you could just watch her fucking interviews and put on some classical music in the background.

>>75096434
oh no problem bitch, the same way i question your authorship i also do it with every hip hop 'artist'

thats one thing you and them will always have in common

>>75103629
nah

>>75096580
>everyone knows of and mentions Max Martin's role in today's mainstream pop music

dude i don't wanna sound ignorant, but i've never in my life heard of this dude. While, even not being a fan of hers, i still know for sure who taylor swift is.

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>>75099174
>they never really felt welcomed in rock music
>mfw

>>75099174
>75103856
also most girls i know aren't that into electronic, i know way more guys interested in that kind of techno stuff, while the girls i know (who declare themselves to be into music) are way more into rock/indie/punk usually. But that might just be a trend in Europe.

>>75103856
>>75103928
im referring to upcoming artists anon. not your normie friends brainwashed by society

Basically first problem non-issue that can only be solved by installing Communism because that's the only thing that will make art school nu-males and women happy. Artists are pretty much fucked in capitalism and we'll always have these complaints, unless you're a very popular pop artist. They still find ways to complain though.

>>75104108
*first world

>>75098988
>>75098977
we wont

women are stuck with an issue they cant solve their brains are 10% smaller than a mans

women on average however make more neuroconnections

but thats the things neuroconnections are made you arent born with them

women can never reach the upper bounds of men they will always be behind

women are stock in slightly better than mediocre no matter what

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Look man, men are just better at everything.
Women just cant handle industries that are meritocracies because they find out the reality is they fucking suck so they have to start whining about how they need special treatment.
Comedy, music, sports.......politics.
Men are better

>>75104738
>Men are better
Then why are you on your own tonight?

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>>75104766
Because tonight is just like every other night.

>>75104766
Men dont need contact with other human beings and thrive in both isolated and social environments.

Women should pretty much just commit Sudoku

>beats
>beatmakers
And these people claim to be musicians that make music.

>>75104766
i'm listening to music that women will NEVER be able to understand

She's got a point

>>75106656
her point is no one is allowed to criticize her

>>75102749
>and often rely on it to hide their lack of talent - e.g. Grimes
nice bait, fucker

>>75106683
Fair enough desu

>>75098977
>mentioning Björk and Grimes in the same sentence
Gee, its Blur and Oasis again, isn't it?

>>75096464
Fuck off dude, this kind of actual real talk is not allowed here.

>>75096434
i don't think she's wrong but er specific example isn't as simple as sexism. in hip hop, it's assumed that someone else is making the beats. for whatever reason, hip hop producers don't ever get much credit. if you were to look at, say, a niki minaj album, no one would be talking about her producers and who's making the beats, and i highly doubt it's her. it's still a "niki minaj song"

bjork even as a "pop artist" often errs into the experimental electronic bubble, which is obviously one where people are already paying a lot more attention to producers. especially when she's bringing in big names like matmos and arca.

that being said, i can understand how it'd be frustrating for her, and feeling as though people are much quicker to attach male names to her own damn album

i believe anything mommy bork says. i want her to pet me

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>>75096464
This is actually the realest shit i've read on 4chan in fucking years.

That being said this thread wasn't that bad, /mu/ is generally pretty good with these things compared to most other boards as long as the thread is actually about music and musicians.

How much of kanye's music is actually made ny him? This is kinda disheartening since I love all of his music. I just assumed he does most of the beats because he used to make beats for jay z.

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>>75104766

MOOOOMMMMYYYYYYYY

>>75107945
>he made every beat on TCD
>most of the beats on LR (with input from Jon Brion)
>most of the beats on Graduation (starting to get more help from other producers at this point)
>808s is kinda different because the instrumentals are different from his usual hip hop style of producing, but the still came up with most of the melodies then produced the instrumentals together with mike dean/mr hudson
>MBDTF was when he started to enlist a shitload of producers to send him beats that he would then perfect and work on (i.e. Power, Devil In a New Dress), pretty sure he made Runaway by himself
>Yeezus was done the same way, only I think he made Bound 2 himself. A lot of the beats were made by more electronic producers such as Arca, Gesaffelstein, Hudson Mohawke
>TLOP is hard to tell but he was definitely involved in every beat (i.e. Bam Bam sample at the end of famous, sample in the beginning of FSMH pt1)

around 808s/MBDTF is when he started acting more as a director and curator of other people's beats instead of producing them all by himself
but I dont think there will ever be a Kanye album where he isn't at least somewhat involved in the production side of things
also pusha t confirmed that King Push will be exclusively kanye beats so he might be back to solo production which would be cool

>>75103819
Well you do sound ignorant, I think the point wasn't that Taylor Swift and Max Martin have the same amount of popularity (which is obviously not true), but to never having heard of a guy that had written more #1 hits than even The Beatles is pretty ignorant for a music fan on a music board.

>>75107848

What are you talking about? This type of shit gets parroted all the fucking time. You're a fucking dumbass if it took you this long to realise what he said had some truth. 4chan is just random people on the internet. Talk about anything and it'll turn to t a shitflinging contest most of the time.

>>75108689
>What are you talking about? This type of shit gets parroted all the fucking time.

Yeah, but in other boards it generally is met with "fuck u fag" and sagebombing entire threads because anons are in denial and sperg the fuck out.
It didn't happen here and the thread staid on topic, that's what i meant (well, until you decided to post i guess).

>>75108707

yeah dw about me just had a shitty day. don't really come to 4chan much anymore. I couldn't take all the shit desu, the irony and baiting is way too blurred anymore and it messes with me.

>Subject field: "Controversial Thing"
>Post: "Completely reasonable thing"

why did you do this

>>75106725
That's not bait, it's a case study. Go to school anon.

>>75108738
In order to not receive only 5 comments: https://rbt.asia/mu/thread/70614587/

>>75108762

Haha this is great

>>75104766
t. woman

questioning someones social status when triggered by facts is a very woman thing to do

>>75108750
Grimes is the most control-freaky artist you'll ever find. She produces all her stuff without any help and is successful and acclaimed. Go troll somewhere else.

>>75108762
well point taken honestly

>>75109017
I can't even tell if you're baiting anymore.
Grimes controls everything because she thinks every single person that ever offered her any help is out to raper her/take advantage of her.
She has the most unique snowflake mentality ever, literally scared shitless of da big bad patriarchy all the fucking time.

And no, the fact that she was assaulted before her career started doesn't excuse it, i know literal rape victims that didn't turn out like scared passive aggressive cunts like she did.

>>75109036
>ad hominem attacks instead of an actual opinion about her art
People like you are the actual problem, Fuck off.

>>75109017
The post you are replying to references Grimes as an example of a woman who relies on marketing herself as an image to sell her shitty music. Don't know what you're sperging out about.
Also, commercial entertainment and art art wholly unrelated and Grimes is so distant from any notion of artistry that your comment actually made me laugh.

>>75096434
Isn't one of the biggest criticisms leveled at Kanye that he (nowadays at least) doesn't do much in the way of his own beats?

>>75109093
>woman who relies on marketing herself as an image to sell her shitty music
this is absolutely not true, stopped reading at this point

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if i fuck her asshole with bleach on my tshirt
will i fuck up my tshirt but bleach her asshole?

>>75100376
Did she write her own stuff?

>>75109107
>Despite advertising herself as a personality who speaks about things that have nothing to do with her music, constantly being in photoshoots and her entire fanbase almost exclusively discussing her as a person as opposed to her perceived musical ability it is a lie that all of that is true
I didn't say you can't like her, but I did say loads of facts.

>>75109173
based

>>75109173
point taken

on topic:
so does kanye have any female collaborators?

>>75109195
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kyWDhB_QeI

>>75109173
Thank you for this

>>75109158
>implying artists are not allowed speak about anything except music
>implying real artists are not doing photo shoots
>implying people are not allowed to discuss personality of successful artists
and so and so on

>>75109173
you baited them yourselves
enjoy

>>75109173
you say kanye west - I say Grimes
you say bork - I say Grimes
you say Tay Tay - I say Grimes
copy and paste this message to 500 other theads DON'T? LET THE SPIRIT OF ROCK AND ROLL AND YOU MOM DIE IN THEIR SLEEP TONIGHT!!!

>>75109247
This is a thread about commercial entertainers. Also, when's the last time you saw a David Shrigley photoshoot? Never, because artists just make work concentrated on conveying a single concept and don't fuck around doing superfluous, self-aggrandising bullshit.
That's your last (you) from me, since you have absolutely no grasp on the subject you're crying about or the context of the discussion.

>>75109284
you say Grimes - I say Grimes

Someone link this thread to Björk's Twitter and post her reaction.

>>75109173

Thanks for this, saved.

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>>75109294
>because artists just make work concentrated on conveying a single concept and don't fuck around doing superfluous, self-aggrandising bullshit
sure, no fun allowed

>>75109336
everybody agreed with her tho?

>>75109355
Yes, I want her to know that we are her allies.

>>75109336

Bjork never replies to anyone, she only posts news. The only time there's been some interaction was from retweeting a couple of memes the other month but it was to promote Bjork Digital tbf

>>75109398
>a couple of memes
what were they?

>>75109448

https://twitter.com/AanaMoren0/status/864278473539563520

https://twitter.com/davidaniston/status/863603926444130304

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>>75109336
>>75109448
Bjork doesn't interact with her fans much, that kind of attitude is to be expected when her fans are the kind of people taht will shave their hair off, cover themselves in paint and then blow their brains all over the wall while sending her explosive acid traps in the mail.

Fun fact: a year ago i was scouting the web for rare tracks from her discography, and i stumbled across a fan page that actually did have quite a bit of rare tracks.
...but it also had pics of her as a kid.
Tons of them.
Even pics i had never seen before.
Like 2 fucking pages of them.
It was quite disturbing, even tho i've been on 4chan for years, because i could just sense how obsessed this person was specifically with Bjork as a child.
Tons of pretty creepy comments by the owner of the site under each pic, too.
Before you ask no, i'm not gonna link it, it's not that difficult to find via google anyway if you're morbidly curious.

Link immediately.

>>75104605
>if I spout a load of psuedo science it'll look like I'm not a moron

>>75096434
why didnt björk add her own percussion ?
its not like thats so fucking hard she couldnt.

>>75109523
Yes, every single fan of a hugely popular artist is an insane pedophile stalker . You're right on the money.

>>75110046
That's not what i'm saying.
Look, it's just that when something this extreme happens an artist might feel a little safer interacting less with her fans in general, and in a more controlled manner.
I'm not saying most Bjork fans are insane, probably 99% of them are perfectly normal people, Bjork is a very mainstream artist that appeals to all kinds of people.
But there's an historical precedent of Bjork fans being fucked up and trying to directly harm her, this will very obviously result in her shutting herself off, it's inevitable and a reasonable reaction on her part.

>>75110089
Honestly I recall reading that the reason why Bjork doesn't interact with her fans very often is because she likes to keep her private life separate from her career as a professional artist. She thinks (and rightly so) that people see her as the manufactured public image of Bjork, and that they can treat her like she isn't a human.

This problem isn't gender specific, it's the norm in hip hop. If you dont put a tag on your beat, nobody will know you did it.
Why do people always yell misogyny when there's a woman involved, even though it has nothing to do with Her being a woman?
There's misogyny a lot of places, especially in entertainment, but this isn't it.

>>75110089
You need to take into account that Bjork comes from an artist's mindset - she was even married to one. She makes work that goes towards communicating a concept and leaves it to be viewed. She's not some fame hungry personality, she's a person presenting ideas through a medium. She makes stuff for you to listen to, why should she be obliged to respond to strangers on the internet who randomly idolise her? I wouldn't.
Plus, every public figure has weird fans. Hers are exceptionally weird, but that's not the primary reason she doesn't spend all day on twitter.
There's a direct correlation between amount of time spent pandering to fans and the quality of the music people make.

>>75110816
yeah but thats the old school way of doing things. which is why she still has these "communications" issues she whines about

if she tweeted"hey i recorded this album by myself but had arca finish it up." ppl wouldn't have to think arca helped her out much

majority of the new school artist learn to communicate with their fans. its the key

>>75110843
That's not the artist's mindset though. In art the work and the credit for it goes to the person who came up with the idea. That's why the likes of Warhol and Koons can have had teams of people make their work. Her ex-husband didn't personally do every aspect of his weird videos - there was a team of people involved. The idea and therefore the authorship is his, though. It doesn't need to be stated.
However, when she makes a work and has someone help with a task her authorship is called into question.
Would you go to a gallery and say the Carravaggio wasn't his painting because it was largely painted by his apprentices under his instruction? That's the issue.
There are a lot of wannabe critics out there who don't understand anything but want to complain anyway and it's stupid.

>>75110954
dude you just ignored everything i said. thats the old school way of doing shit.
koons gets shitted on by majority of the art community also. no idea why you mentioned him. only the very rich who have no clue don't question how much of a fraud he is.
keep up pls

>>75110990
It's not the old school anything, it's a different approach. You're comparing an art mindset to a commercial entertainment mindset. And Koons is only shat on by entertainment critics; he's one of the biggest names in art who has won pretty much every major prize in the industry.
>only the very rich who have no clue don't question how much of a fraud he is
Nice invented narrative. He's not some office decor maker like Sean Scully that makes saleables for the contemporary bourgeous. Koons may be controversial because his output is relatively shallow and dated compared to his contemporaries like Huyghe or Parreno, but he's not exactly a landscape painter or some bollox. Not that your prejudice against an example is relevant anyway. You could sub Anish Kapoor I'm his place and the argument is the same.

I didn't ignore anything you wrote, you are ignoring the context that I outlined.

>>75111243
>And Koons is only shat on by entertainment critics; he's one of the biggest names in art who has won pretty much every major prize in the industry.
are you using the the fucking prizes as a legit way of saying hes cool?
god damn my dude. i go to a fucking art school in portland. my professor rather discuss david hammons or fucking Reena Spaulings. than the that fraud.
Anyway the mindset you have is the reason why more frauds like hetty douglas have a "art" career.

>>75111305
>I go to art school and parrot my tutors
I went to art college and have been working for 4 years. So what?
There's nothing wrong with Koons' concepts and you bias against him.has nothing to do with my argument itself. Stay on track sperglord.

>>75111368
>I went to art college and have been working for 4 years. So what?
what you doing?

>>75111400
Art. Also work in a theatre on the side, write and release music on bandcamp. Completely irrelevant to the discussion, though.
My argument stands.

>>75111465
what kind of art? paintings or sculptures? freelancing or you got connects thru locals?

>>75099018
She gets praise because she gets credit for her work. And its because women love beyonce and will argue that she is the focal point of her music. Women dont like Bjork generally speaking. Most of her fans are men. Blame women for not supporting their own

>>75111481
>paintings or sculptures?
What year are you living in? I have an idea and I materialise it in whatever medium is best suited to it like every art-maker has for over 100 years.

>>75111798
>I have an idea and I materialise it in whatever medium is best suited to it like every art-maker has for over 100 years.
so you studied Art history then?
idk what kind of art school doesn't let you get a bfa without focusing on one of the fields?

so what ideas have you been planning in the 4 yrs you've been working?

>>75111859
>so you studied Art history then?
No. I studied fine art and graduated from the media department, but there's no forced medium in any department in any college because that is counter-intuitive.

>so what ideas have you been planning in the 4 yrs you've been working?
Not about to give some jerk my idea to plagiarise. Go look through European art catalogues, you'll find me eventually.

Now get back on topic.

>>75112045
>No. I studied fine art and graduated from the media department,
that makes sense now. never cared too much about that course myself.felt like that stuff could have been learned thru youtube or just getting a programming degree if anything.
cool that you found work good luck .

>>75112126
I don't understand what you mean. Art college isn't a practical skills training centre. 50% of the paint students work in video and photography, textiles students would make social installations, sculpture students would do performance works. The departments are shaped more by frames of reference. My themes and concepts are historically linked to music, cinema and stuff so I did media. That's how those things break down.

The original purpose of art was to record history and culture, although at the time it was not considered art. If you made a drawing of jesus it was a work of faith. Then art became commoddified, this is what normies think of as art, hyper realistic landscape drawings and portraits, shit like that, the philosophy of western art was to create a work of beauty.Then post modernism happened and now art is like subjective mannnnnn. There are many reasons to create art bedsides beauty, like the abstract, the process, the performance, interaction, concept, political, etc. The purpose of abstract art is to take the real and make it unreal. It is non representational. Why do you need to be realistic anymore anyways? Just go buy a camera for that shit.

By the way, art schools are scams. Littlry the only thing i have ever done to make art was buy books from a book store and read online tips.

>>75112183
no i understand what you mean.
what you're referring is Video, Animation, and Digital Arts in my uni.

>>75111798
What on earth are you talking about?

>>75112260
>By the way, art schools are scams. Littlry the only thing i have ever done to make art was buy books from a book store and read online tips.
I can tell.
You're mostly right, but you're missing some stuff.
Art is a European concept based around presenting an idea through a medium so it can be understood. Like you can write "I am upset" but it isn't as effective at communicating what is felt as The Scream is.
-isms are just fads that hacks jump on, it's the same as when a band gets popular and 30 more bands appear that sound the same. Different works are targeted at different audiences; abstract expressionism is about colour and painting so if you don't know about those things you can't get it - similar to some music that really requires a base understanding of how music is arranged.
>Then art became commoddified, this is what normies think of as art
Sort of. There's a history of rich people having their portrait painted. Around the same time that 'art' became a thing, the middle class also became a thing so markets adopted the term to sell shitty paintings to the bourgeoisie who used them as a status symbol like men use golf clubs and cars today. That divide still exists.

>>75112326
Your college sounds pretty inflexible, my man.

>>75112337
read the discussion, pleb.

>>75104766
Kek

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>>75112401

>>75096434
i did all the beats and mastering on mbdtf but they took all the credit you wint hear this anywhere else

>>75112515
>better use fedora wrong for no reason
Good irony that you posted that in a feminism thread at a post not about feminism.

TLOP has Kanye name as solo (even though was colaborative as hell) because he got the final word on everything. Same thing with Bjork, even though not everything was done by her, she got the final word on it. Sexism exists in the world, by her example it's simply not true, but I agree that almost no one talks about how Shawn Mendes last album was a collective effort and he has little decision on it, but Beyoncé's Lemonade was acused of being "not hers". So, I think she is kinda of right, but used bad examples

>>75112401
>Your college sounds pretty inflexible, my man.
compared to yours. yeah. only 2 years left anyway. your environment sounds lush

>>75112938
It had its pros and its cons. The year after I graduated they were in the news for financial mismanagement and not having space for the numbers of students they were bringing in. Western Europe and Japan are for sure the best places to study art.
Have fun man.

>>75102749
>>75102900
>>75110954
someone who actually knows what they're talking about on /mu/
...

>>75104605
>>75108178
>>75104738
>>75108887
>>75112515
and this is pretty much what I expected from /mu/

>>75113094
Thanks, I usually get shitposted at and called a fedora when I do good posts.

>>75113094
>>75113193
samefag

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>>75113237
okay buddy

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>>75113237
I guess the Americans are home from middle school now.

>>75113249
nice shop

>>75113249
>>75113255
>both of them falling for a bait
now go and suck each other off

>>75113255
wow and phoneposting
pathetic

>>75113268
Literally off of my laptop, mate.
What's your next shitpost?

>>75113309
this one

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i want sufjan to be my daddy (sexually)

>>75110954
>Would you go to a gallery and say the Carravaggio wasn't his painting because it was largely painted by his apprentices under his instruction?
If he was a contemporary artist, then yes, because the means of producing art have changed dramatically since his time. For an artist (musical/graphical/whatever) living in the current state of technological advancement regarding actually making/producing art, pretty much the only actual work needed to be put in is on the creative side.
Therefore collaborators should (and increasingly do) get wider recognition for their roles in other artists' work - especially when it comes to "solo" artists like Bjork - because the bulk of that work is creative ideation.

>>75109523
at least tell us what you searched.

>>75116480
You're not talking about art authorship, you're talking about entertainment and commerce. Reread those posts, rethink your understanding of the word 'artist' since it's a specific job title (separate from entertainer). You missed the point is what I'm saying.

>>75102749
>though a lot of them play up on it for sales
Anon, men are every bit as sexually objectified in modern entertainment media as women. It's just that you aren't naturally attuned to noticing it - because you're not a woman...

>a lot of them play up on it for sales
All the smart/good/successful ones DO, because complete, complex art appeals to all of the senses - one of which is sight.

>The art world doesn't have these issues.
Because the visual art world uses sight as its primary means of expression. The visual art world has just as many issues in the way that it is contextualized as music does - just in non-visual ways. Successful visual art is every bit as commercial as successful auditory art (music.)

>>75116732
>men are every bit as sexually objectified in modern entertainment media as women
Yeah, I see a lot of people talking about John Maus and Ariel Pink as sex objects.

>All the smart/good/successful ones DO, because complete, complex art appeals to all of the senses - one of which is sight
Art requires that the work wholly is interpreted as a one idea. Layering sex on top of an idea isn't 'the best art', it is definitively bad. Music is also an unrelated field and you're ignoring the comparison in the post you're replying to.

>Because the visual art world uses sight as its primary means of expression.
Where are you getting the word visual from. Not all art is visual.The art world relies on an audience who are there to experience the work. The entertainment world relies on an audience who will pay to be entertained. That's the difference between the two.

>Successful visual art is every bit as commercial as successful auditory art (music.)
Art is free, hence why galleries don't charge at the door (but museums and archives do). You have no idea what you're talking about. Music in this context is commercial entertainment. Art can be made through music, not all music is art. Get into the context before shitting sideways all over yourself.

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>>75110954
>Would you go to a gallery and say the Carravaggio wasn't his painting because it was largely painted by his apprentices under his instruction?

Caravaggio didn't give a fuck about anything.
All Caravaggio did all day was get drunk, fuck, and fight people.
He was awesome, he'd probably punch half the people going to the museums his art is displayed in if he was alive today, right in the fucking face.

He died on a beach somewhere because he owed someone money.
He was more OG than 90% of modern rappers today.

>>75116665
>You're not talking about art authorship.
I am ABSOLUTELY talking about art authorship. It used to be that MOST of the physical work necessary to create masterful works of art (both visual and musical) where far beyond the capabilities of a single person. Therefore the only way to effectively turn out works was for an artist to find underlings to delegate the particularly drudgeful time-consuming tasks to, and instead focus exclusively on forming/authoring the artistic intent behind the work. Carravaggio-types of old rightfully get full authorial credit for their works because they were the only ones involved in the creative process in a position to be seeing/thinking about the bigger picture.
But in a world with machines automating much of that drudgery and - most importantly - affording EVERY person involved in a given project an equally good position to be seeing/thinking about the bigger picture.

>>75117222
Oops - forgot to finish the thought.

... in a given project an equally good position to be seeing/thinking about the bigger picture, that sort of exclusive right to artistic authorship no longer exists. Unless an artist is still working with non-mechanized process in their artform - which most certainly ISN'T the case of an electronic music-based artist like Bjork.

>>75117222
>It used to be that MOST of the physical work necessary to create masterful works of art (both visual and musical) where far beyond the capabilities of a single person
Explain how that has changed. Is sawing a cow in half a one man job? How fucking little do you know about this? Don't start arguing about things you know nothing about. The amount of labour that goes into most major contemporary artworks is fucking insane.

>Carravaggio-types of old rightfully get full authorial credit for their works because they were the only ones involved in the creative process
But most historians believe a lot of his paintings were entirely done by his students and stolen by him to pay his debts and shit. Is plagiarism ok but original ideas not by your standards?


>... in a given project an equally good position to be seeing/thinking about the bigger picture, that sort of exclusive right to artistic authorship no longer exists. Unless an artist is still working with non-mechanized process in their artform - which most certainly ISN'T the case of an electronic music-based artist like Bjork.
Massively ignorant, especially given that you are calling an entertainer an artist - meaning you don't understand the distinctions from the argument you are questioning in the first place.
So you think Anish Kapoor should have made that big mirror ball thing in Chicago on his own with his bear hands and because he didn't that he has no right to have his name on it? Shut up.

>>75116894
>Layering sex on top of an idea
Sexuality is a subordinate component of human psychology.
>Art requires that the work wholly is interpreted as a one idea.
Hence why all complete, complex great works of art incorporate subordinate components like sexuality into the overarching artistic idea that they are based around. A work of art without some sort of visual component to it isn't a wholly complete work of art. And neither is a piece of visual art wholly complete unless it has some sort of sound component connected with it.

>>75117343
>But most historians believe a lot of his paintings were entirely done by his students and stolen by him to pay his debts and shit.

No, that's actually not true.
He did have a lot of students (one of them was a woman i think from naples that went on to amke really amazing stuff, she was one of his best students) but he actually had really solid talent and made most of his shit doing most of the work himself.
It's true that he was constantly swamped in debts because he loved pussy and booze way too much and made bad decisions all the time because of it.

>>75116894
>the difference between the two.
Is a false dichotomy. Entertainment just a word to describe the social function (if any) a particular piece of art serves to a particular population in a given place and time. All art is art - whether that be visual art, sonic art (music) or what have you.

>>75117210
Fuck yeah, he was the man.

>>75117446
>Sexuality is a subordinate component of human psychology.
What does that contextless statement have to do with superfluous sexuality thrown on top of unrelated work for sales? You are making an argument estranged from the thing you are arguing against.
>[complete gibberish demanding that superfluous sexual images are needed to communicate unrelated concepts]
Yeah, when I make a work about the limits of language I make sure to hire a model to stand beside it with her tits out to completely distract from the work. Fucking idiot.

>>75117480
Yeah, I exaggerated. The Taking of Christ one is speculated to not be by him, though. It's a solid argument, he may have stolen a students work or it could be an imitation. It's a cool painting anyway so who cares.

>>75117523
No, entertainers have the task of entertaining an audience - a job for which they are paid.
Artists are people who present work that communicates something specifically beyond conventional means and make it available for free.

>>75117343
>Is sawing a cow in half a one man job?
Yes, when you have access to an electric saw.

>The amount of labour that goes into most major contemporary artworks is fucking insane.
I know - I used to work as a painter's assistant (before I decided to become a full-time musician) for a Russian transplant artist who did virtually everything old-school. And most of my time was spent just preparing blank canvases from scratch. The thing is, even back when I worked for her (around ten years ago) 95% of the rest of the artists in the scene were just using ready-made ones from Blick. And today, even SHE longer does that sort of thing in-house - because it simply isn't necessary.

>But most historians believe a lot of his paintings were entirely done by his students
Read to the end of the sentence next time:
>were the only ones involved in the creative process IN A POSITION to be seeing/thinking about the bigger picture.
Virtually none of these guys/gals worked truly solo, because it simply wasn't technologically feasible until very recently - for a lot of art forms.

>So you think Anish Kapoor should have made that big mirror ball thing in Chicago on his own with his bear hands
Only if it would've been physically/technologically/logistically possible for him to do so. Which I'm 99% certain it WASN'T. So yes - he probably deserves ample credit.

> you are calling an entertainer an artist
Because that's what they are - see >>75117523

>>75117919
>Yes, when you have access to an electric saw
If you don't know the piece I'm talking about then you have no right to be shitposting at me. If you do know it then you know how retarded it is to claim one man can make that on his own.

>painter's assistant
I'm not talking about commercial decor makers, I'm talking about art. If you think all paintings and painters are artists in this context then you clearly don't understand the posts you're arguing against.

>Virtually none of these guys/gals worked truly solo, because it simply wasn't technologically feasible until very recently - for a lot of art forms
Not true. A lot of guys worked alone on a lot of works. A busy period would mean the students would do minor details on a painting, that's about it. Stop bullshit posting, pls.

>Only if it would've been physically/technologically/logistically possible for him to do so. Which I'm 99% certain it WASN'T. So yes - he probably deserves ample credit.
SO you are claiming that every creator needs to learn every technical skill in the world or else they are a worthless hack? Your head is kilometers up your ass, mate.

Everything you stated is easily disputed by posts that already exist in this thread and belong to the argument you are disputing. You are literally arguing losing points to an argument from almost 24 hours ago. Stop.

>>75117568
>Artists are people who present work that communicates something specifically beyond conventional means and make it available for free.
>artists are people who don't eat
Lol what an amateurish opinion.
Amateur artists make art. Professional artists make art and get paid for it. Speaking as a professional artist who MAKES A STEADY LIVING as an artist (and who likes to eat food occasionally), you should try being a professional artist some time. It might alter your perspective.

>>75096504
>>she literally denies it on every interview up to this point
>>arca himself denies when people commend him for the production
>>she lets people fill in the blanks for her

alright man take care

>>75118169
>Amateur artists make art. Professional artists make art and get paid for it. Speaking as a professional artist who MAKES A STEADY LIVING as an artist (and who likes to eat food occasionally), you should try being a professional artist some time.
I am a professional artist, hence not being a retard. The work doesn't generate income unless generating income is part of the concept. Money comes in from grants and residencies. If you draw mickey mouse having sex with Rihanna you're not an artist, you're a hack illustrator.
Don't argue with an argument you didn't read properly.

>>75096533
I'm honestly asking you and the rest of /mu/: What do you think feminism is?

>>75117210
CARAVAGGIO DONT GIVE A FUCK MEME WHEN?

>>75118112
>I'm not talking about commercial decor makers, I'm talking about art.
So am I. The last painting of hers I worked on was a wall-sized abstract portrait of a person in 115 hand-mixed shades of blue.
And yes - home decor is also a form of art. So is music.

>>75118441
> a wall-sized abstract portrait of a person in 115 hand-mixed shades of blue
So it was a vapid aesthetic commodity made for a rich person to buy? That's not art. There was a whole part about that in this thread already. ctrl+f "emerging middle class" should get you there.
>home decor is also a form of art. So is music.
No. Art is a practice. Art can be accomplished through any means, but that doesn't mean that media that art has been made in are all grouped as art as well. There's an artist called Orlan who gets plastic surgery. If you get a nose job it's not an artwork. There's a guy who got shot on camera, Chris Burden - incredibly famous. Getting shot isn't "an art form".
You're using bourgeous, salon reasoning to use the word art as a label of quality to apply to garbage to present yourself as cultured to impress people. That's what you're doing. The same thing as the 60 year old men who wear Ralph Lauren clown suits to impress their country club pals.

>>75118545
>If you get a nose job it's not an artwork.
It is to the people who will accidentally dig up your corpse in a thousand years. Art is entirely in the eye of the beholder.

>Getting shot isn't "an art form".
But the WAY in which one get's shot is.

>the 60 year old men who wear Ralph Lauren clown suits
Listen, anon, whatever it is you get up to in your spare time is entirely your own business.

>>75118744
>It is to the people who will accidentally dig up your corpse in a thousand years
No, it's artifact to future archaeologists. The concept and philosophy or 'art' would be entirely foreign.

>But the WAY in which one get's shot is.
That is the saddest attempt at a pseudo-intellectual response I've ever seen.

Stop posting, you're not even the worst shitposter in this thread so far, but you're still horrible.

>>75118805
>No, it's artifact to future archaeologists. The concept and philosophy or 'art' would be entirely foreign.
Go read Motel of the Mysteries. Even though it's ostensibly about archaeology, the points it makes are extremely salient to the world of art criticism.

>>75118911
>Go read a book written by someone who has no relation to art about a subject unrelated to art! It will tell you more about art than any of the actual writings on Art I'm ignorant of!