How come jazz never reached the heights classical did?

>>74746743
it did

>>74746743
A white man has never made good music

>>74746743
One was enough. >>74746331
But hey, this board has to finally get run into the ground somehow.

>>74746795
any thread to talk about jazz on mu at this point should be considered a good thing

Jazz is pop music made to sell records and dance to while Classical is music to be performed in high brow concert halls and be studied academically.

The only reason we think jazz is high brow is because of how much popular music has devolved. In reality jazz has a lot more in common with blues, rock, funk, and soul than it does with classical.

>>74748619
Classical is pop music.
It's actually too pop.

This is blatantly not true though. Jazz has sold better than classical has since Jazz has been a thing. Most jazz post-bebop is easily more complex and intricate than common practice period classical. This is even true when taking into account the New Complexity movement that's relatively recent in classical, whose jazz parallels has been far more experimental past the 70s. In general, jazz is capable of doing things with rhythm and dynamics that classical is incapable of. Even on the experimental side, the electroacoustic/musique concrete of classical didn't really evolve until jazz's improvisation aspect was added, thus where the latest innovations in that area are happening currently. With guys ranging from Maria Schneider's soft, atmospheric, moody big band music to Anthony Braxton's current weird experiments to Keith Rowe's electroacoustic/free improvisation, jazz has completely superseded classical. To me honestly the most important aspect of jazz from a social perspective is that it transcends things like race, class, any other form of identity, etc. more than all other music which has allowed to it maintain a sense of versatility that no other genre of music has ever had so far.

It's not as popular, tastes change, I don't think it was ever meant for larger audiences the same way classical is

>>74750218
>classical
>ever meant for larger audiences
HAHAHHAHAHAHAHAH

>>74746743
It honestly reached a lot higher in that regard than it deserved, and I say that as a person who listens to Jazz primarily.

>>74748619
It depends on the specific type of jazz though.

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>>74750267

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>>74750815

>>74746743
its all just opinions friend

>>74750815
>implying that's not just filled with pompous rich people like classical's usual audience along with the music fans

>>74748619
>The only reason we think jazz is high brow is because of how much popular music has devolved.
That's just not the case, I get why you might thing that, but it's just not the case. If anything, it was American's innate desire to elevate artistic forms they view as uniquely theirs. Jazz is the perfect one, and with many Classical academics going back to it and siding with it's latent cultural elevation, everything just fit like a puzzle.

You are right to say it has more in common with blues, pop and so-on however, that's true. Jazz is seen as artistically accomplished by classical academics, but OP (and many) mistake that to mean Jazz is comparable to Classical.

Also, a huge boost to Jazz's standing came from Art Tatum. He played with a lot of the top pianists of the 1900s and many said he could put them out of a job. Now back then they would add the caveat of "if he played serious music" but Tatum's renown would obviously lend credence to the form as a whole.

>>74746743
it surpassed classical

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQmc6_w2bTE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmKtvY0Nqrc

Classical BTFO

>>74751021
>Now back then they would add the caveat of "if he played serious music"
Wiser times.

>>74748341
jazz threads are a target for /pol/ bait now

>>74748619
This is very true, reverence of jazz is a form of American cultural imperialism, concurrent with the Marshall plan.
>>74750815
Actually, concert culture is a symptom of the devolution of music as an art form into a form bourgeoisie posturing.
>>74751021
>Jazz is seen as artistically accomplished by classical academics
American academics*

>>74751769
as long as people are talking about jazz, meh
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xC68NtEmAcc

>A prime example of classical music
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WN7ghZVZTr0&t=50
>untalented performer just mashing random keys and holding down sustain, boring, harmonically uninteresting, literally just perfect fifths layered over each other for a nice consonant (pleb) sound, dull unchanging pulse rhythm, literally far less complex than 90% of modern pop music

A prime example of jazz music
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6s0cjSUDJE
>exciting, harmonically adventurous, mixes consonant and dissonant intervals to create tension and resolution, polystylistic, virtuoso performers, complex rhythm, chromaticism

Why is classical so shit? Why is it the simplest form of music?

>>74751926
a first-rate classical pianist
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WN7ghZVZTr0&t=50

the average kid playing jazz
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4V_uaxBVOw

>>74752056
>>74751926
Jazz has no Bach.

>>74751823
>thinks jazz is only cared about in America
You clearly haven't seen contemporary scenes in countries in Europe like Italy or in Japan. Jazz has gotten an influence and love internationally that classical never got.

>>74752134
Why would jazz want an equivalent of a guy that had non-existent rhythmic variation, stuck to the same keys most of the time, was way too obsessed with V -> I/trilling into it, and couldn't into dynamics? Even classical fans will tell you that Bach's music wasn't actually all THAT insanely complex. The dude did counterpoint, yes, but it's one of the most straightforward approaches to counterpoint one can hear in serious music mainly due to what I have already mentioned.

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>>74752134
Ah, that's where you're mistaken.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_7NQkhR1Ac

>>74752137
I literally just said that the reverence of jazz is a key part of American cultural imperialism. No surprise it got huge in countries most devastated and displaced by WW2 (the apex of European culture) like France or the Nordic countries.

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no clue

>>74752224
Sweden was pretty okay from WW2, still managed to have an enormous jazz scene.

>>74752407
Yes, because the four (4) other countries of the Nordic council were all devastated by war, all were heavy Marshall plan recipients (thus developing a close relationship with USA) and no European cultural and economic alternative existing other than the Soviet Union, they too were Americanized.

Sweden has also always, despite being the largest and arguably most powerful nation of the nordics, also been the weakest culturally.

>>74746743
Because jazz is an off shoot of classical

>>74746743
But it did, anon https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RU3IX5yy28

>>74746743
Niggers.

>>74752481
But this doesn't explain jazz in the Soviet Union, nor India. Your "Americanized" argument makes little sense in any regard, period. Was America "Jamaicanized" as well when Jamaicans brought their decks over that they used for dub music which helped make genres like hip hop and house? If you actually read up on the stories of jazz' spread, it has nothing to do with imperialism, but more centered around travelling musicians and in the case of Europe specifically, the advent of bebop.

>>74748619
>Classical is music to be performed in high brow concert halls and be studied academically.

Do you even know what Listomania is?

>Lisztomania or Liszt fever was the intense fan frenzy directed toward Hungarian composer Franz Liszt during his performances. This frenzy first occurred in Berlin in 1841 and the term was later coined by Heinrich Heine in a feuilleton he wrote on April 25, 1844, discussing the 1844 Parisian concert season.

Here's one of his songs for those unfamiliar with him.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpOtuoHL45Y

>>74751926
Wow, that's not cherrypicking at all.

>>74752694
Jazz was banned in the Soviet Union. Shostakovich made some jazz stuff but that's about it.

>>74746743
jazz is degenerate nigger music

>>74748741
pop by his difusión, not by their structure , you fucking pleb

>>74746743
Support Kamasi Washington and other such artists. It's not Jazz's time right now but there's a bit of great stuff coming out regardless.