What happened to the threads about composition advice?

I'm surprised /mu/ isn't just music teachers having to deal with their marching band or other shit

you can't waifupost while learning composition so it doesn't really work on /mu/

>>74477502
We had a comp general and it was good for a while

I am a composer and I enjoyed those threads greatly, but when they turned into tonal circlejerks they turned to shit

Almost no one here wants to discuss/even knows about contemporary theory

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>>74477745
It's definitely hard because you would normally have to post a picture to help explain your point.

>>74477745
>can't waifupost

lmao it's called husbando and of course you can do that

/mu/ has way too many people who just passively consume music and not enough people who try and actually make music.

>>74477768
That's because 99% of music still requires that, especially for people who are new at composition, don't they have to use that first? Anyway I liked the threads. It would help to find a good online composition tool we could use to share and collaborate.

>>74477830
It's not about relevancy

It's about how that's all that the threads consisted of, and it monopolized discussion. This is what kills threads

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>>74477502
I want to help the thread along by asking a question.

Where is a good place to actually get started learning composition? I'm learning theory already and I've tried messing around with recording and seeing what works, but I'm still a little lost. Like once I have a part of a song written, how would I figure out the best way to "move" the song forward into a new part without it sounding broken or way too samey?

I just need a basis of knowledge that I can use as I trial and error.

Well, I'd like to contribute, since I have some questions of my own.

I've asked before in previous /gg/ threads, but I'm still wondering: how do I into playing outside? I've got a decent grasp of the altered scale for most keys, but it still doesn't sound like I'm there yet. As soon as I hit the V7 I just go up the altered scale and then resolve back to one of the notes in the I chord and just go from there. A lot of online sources just recommend playing a little line and then moving up a half-step from there and eventually resolving.

Also, can someone explain triad pairs to me? Is it really just as simple as choosing the diatonic chord above or below the one you're currently playing and interspersing it into your current melody?

i.e. in a ii V I in C major, if you're using triad pairs on the ii wouldyou just play any notes from DFAC and CEGB? At this point you're practically just playing within the C major scale, so what's the point?

>>74477927
musictheory.net. Start with scales and key signatures. Go through every exercise/example and if you don't fully understand something, work it out on paper. It might be tough in the beginning, but as long as you work out the things that confuse you, you'll be fine.

Once you've gotten through it all (yes, even the neapolitcan chords section), start to use google and/or youtube for more relatively advanced topics. Also, learn your scales.

>>74478020
> how do I into playing outside?

the hell does this mean

just being helpful here, it seems there is a lot of lexicon which you aren't getting, so I don't actually know what the hell you're talking about. Do you mean playing "outside" a particular pitch collection?

As for triad pairs - I've just read about it and from what I gather yes, all you have to do is pick diatonic thirds and play through them. If you want to go outside of your tonality, then think about secondary/applied chords and chromatic mediant relationships.

Sorry man not being a dick, it's just I think you're using a lot of jargon you don't actually understand

>>74477768
>>74477916
Uhhhh contemporary music is largely tonal

>>74478177
Contemporary classical is not tonal

It is post-tonal

The difference is that for something to be tonal then it has to follow tonal practice and conventions. If it exists outside of that realm, it is post tonal.

>>74478020
Also I've seen more and "triad pairs" is just a simple triadic voice leading principle

This videos is pretty good at explaining it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgN-Om6jkcg

>>74478142
Thanks for the link! I'll start with nonharmonic tones and work my way from there since I already know scales, chords, etc,. This looks like great info.

To be honest, and sorry if this sounds like a dumb question, I'm more looking for information about how to structure a song. More abstract, like what each part of a song is called and how to string them together. How to write something that sounds like it is ending, or how to write something that sounds like it is building.

I don't know if there are resources for that kind of thing other than picking apart songs and straight up writing songs. If that's what I have to do that's what I'll do though.

>>74478309
Music theory only started making sense to me when I learned about two things. First is counterpoint. Seems complicated, but the basic idea of counterpoint is older than the idea of harmony that we commonly think of now (chord progressions and so on) and harmony never made sense to me until I learned counterpoint. You can find easy info on it by searching "species counterpoint".

Melody and harmony are really intertwined. Chord progressions imply melody, and melodic lines imply chords. Motion in both comes from changes in tension, and tension is determined by dissonance.

For instance, playing the same note on 2 different instruments is unity, there's no difference. It's the most consonant you can get. Playing one note an octave higher is 1:2 ratio, which is the second most consonant thing you can get. In fact, it's so consonant that we call them the same notes. C and C an octave above are both C. Then, we have the perfect fifth, 2:3. This is the most consonant interval between different named notes. You can make a song with only octaves, perfect fifths and fourths (the fourth is the inversion of the fifth) and it'll sound kind of boring but very calming, this is because it's very consonant. In fact, some of the old church music, like middle ages, used only these intervals.

>>74477707
Real music fans don't come here. It's all posers and kids who decided to nab the RYM 100/mucore chart

>>74477745
kek

>>74477707
>Music discussion
>On mu
Impossible

>>74478922
So consonance and dissonance is a mathematical relation between the notes. You can list them 1:2, 2:3, 3:4, 4:5, 5:6, etc, each one of those ratios is one of the notes in our diatonic scale. And the ratios with the higher numbers are more dissonant.

Harmonic motion comes from increasing and decreasing the tension which is dissonance. In species counterpoint, they divide intervals between the perfect consonances (unity, octave, fifth, and sometimes fourth), imperfect consonances (all thirds and sixths) and dissonances (seconds, sevenths and tritone).

Learning about this stuff it really clicked for me more than what you usually hear which is to use some standard chord progressions and use these standard scales over them, since the more complex stuff is all actually derived from the simple stuff.

>>74477768
Anyone can create the comp general, so you/me/anyone can boot it back into existence.

>>74477927
You could always look up something along the lines of 'how to do music comp.' or 'how to *insert challenge your facing here*'

>>74477768
I'm interested in twelve tone theory. I wanted to see if I could make it sound more or less melodic and accessible. I've had some success writing tone row that could work as motives but I don't really understand the extent of what is allowed vis a vis harmony and counterpoint.

>>74479044
I think you'd have to have some knowledge on it tho

>>74478922
>>74479035
That is absolutely fabulous information! This is exactly the kind of observation put into words that I was looking for. Thank you, I really appreciate you taking the time to answer my clumsy question.

>>74479094
I appreciate you saying this, but I stumbled into the thread and it was as good a time as any to type the question into a text box.

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>>74478221
so is a tonal piece composed tomorrow post-tonal?

>>74478164
>he hell does this mean
>Sorry man not being a dick, it's just I think you're using a lot of jargon you don't actually understand
He knows what he is talking about, he just comes from a different tradition of theory from you. Playing inside and outside are common jazz terms regarding improvising. This person clearly has a jazz background. Playing inside is playing notes from scales closely related to the chords you are comping over. Playing outside means playing distantly related scales or chord outlines over a chord.

>>74479159
The tone row is not a melody. The point of the tone row isn't to be 'accessible' or melodic. Even if you made the row itself melodic you would never that melody because you will almost never, ever hear an unadulterated tone row in any composition. Tone rows are meant to provide recognizable intervals (and sometimes implications of chords).

>vis a vis harmony and counterpoint.
Twelve tone writing is atonal. Sure you have chords in the sense that any two notes that are note the same played at the same time technically are a chord but you do not have harmony. In regards to counterpoint the twelve tone style is meant to liberate lines from harmonic limitations. The counterpoint is thus entirely dependent on motivic considerations.

>>74478221
>Contemporary classical is not tonal
>It is post-tonal
this is not correct.

Anything using the tonal system is tonal. No matter when it is written.

"post tonal" generally refers to atonal music that fucks with peoples expectations by inserting things like tonal chords.

This guy does a good short talk on post tonal music:
http://sounz.org.nz/resources/1234

>>74477502
Not enough people needed composition advice and all the actual composers are probably busy composing.

Who here /fugue/ ?
I've been obsessed with writing them for the last year and a bit;
https://soundcloud.com/psllbof
Latest fugue wanted to be in C major but I let it go wherever it wanted, which ended up being F# minor most of the time

>>74480354
seems to always be composers interested in fugue for a time

glad to see it isnt going anywhere just yet

>>74480354
>"post tonal" generally refers to atonal music that fucks with peoples expectations by inserting things like tonal chords.
Ah whoops I fucked this up. Post tonal is anything outside the tonal system. Could be microtonal, serial, 12 tone, maybe even bimodal?

The idea of subverting atonal music with tonal is just a new idea in post-tonal music.

>>74480426
fugues are fucking boss. I don't know why but polyphony is incredibly fun and rewarding to write.

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>>74477745
>not having a composer waifu

>>74479159
>
Writing tone rows that are "melodic" or "accessible" is a clever idea and a fun challenge. You can easily outline harmonies in a row if you're working with triads. A great composer who derived rows with tonal implications is Alban Berg. I'd look at the row for his Violin Concerto for an excellent example of this. Counterpoint in 12 tone music is achieved by playing various alterations of the row. Once you create a row you like, I'd suggest creating a matrix to easily find the notes for various permutations of the row, whether that's through transposition, inversion, through retrograde, or through retrograde inversions of the row (scary shit, I know). For harmony in 12 tone music, it's best to think of it in terms of intervallic relationships, and the colors that these chords/trichords/tetrachords/ect produce. It's a waste of time to attempt to think of harmony in terms of alterations on triads. Harmony is typically created by letting multiple rows occur simultaneously. The part to get creative with is the pace to let the row unfold at, and the different possibilities for harmonies depending on the rhythms you chose. Hope this was helpful. Glad to answer any questions.

Anyone have any good resources for learning polyphonic counterpoint? I already have a solid grasp on voice leading and rules for homophony. I'm taking a class on counterpoint in the fall and would like to get some sort of head start.

>>74481110
There are a million books on counterpoint and most of them are pretty similar. Just pick up anyone of them and start working your way through the exercises. Just know that most books will focus on either 16th or 17th century counterpoint so pick a book that reflects the kind you want.

>>74481110
just do it

>>74481110
Fux - Gradus ad Parnassum.

Its simply laid out and even though its old, pretty good.

I want to have a better understanding of composing outside of a key. I have already successfully incorporated ideas like using chords derived from the sub-dominant, dominant, and parallel keys; chords and melodies from the melodic, harmonic minor scales; I've created music from my own made up scales, to my knowledge (1, 2, b3, 4, #5, 6, 7); I have used Tetrachords at a point in a phrase; I have also substituted different scales in a diatonic key. But I know there is more to it that I don't yet understand or am aware of. I would prefer to read books that are dedicated to this topic but anything is welcomed.

>>74481748
Applied chords / secondary dominants?

pedal notes and chromatic changes of one note while the rest of the chord stays the same ( kind of suspensions, although doesn't have to resolve like a suspension usually would).

The best tool really is your ear. Try to imagine what the next chord could sound like, without thinking about what chord and key you're going to. Try to think about which note each note in the chord will go to - voice leading. The less you think about 'correct' chords, the more you will stray out of a key (well possibly...). diminished chords are also a great way to temporarily or permanently change key: take a diminished chord, repeat it with one note lowered (can be any of the 4 notes), then treat this new lowered note as scale degree 5 in a new key. Using this a diminished chord can be a pivot to get to 4 different keys, depending on which chord you lower.

>>74478922
You, i like your words, what you said about the ratios made a lot of sense to me, good man on /mu/.

>>74481748
Any diatonic chord and become a dominant. Asides from all the crazy shit you can already do with dominants is that every dominant can be preceded by it's own ii chord.
There is also the concept of nesting where you can precede any chord by playing a chord a semi-tone above and then below and vice versa.