Opinions on classical music?

>>74260903
>I want to modernize classical music and make it fun and passionate again for the average person though.
I'm sorry but that's not possible. Focus on trying to make contemporary music that will resonate with fans who are stingy about muh Bach to Brahms because those are the people that will actually go to your concerts.
>Is pursuing classical music a pointless endeavor
No. It's a tradition that should be kept alive.

>>74260925
>I'm sorry but that's not possible
I'll clarify. It's an impossible endeavor to get the masses into classical music again, but it was never about the masses in the first place. Obviously you can convince Average Joe to listen to a piece of contemporary music and he might enjoy it depending on accessibility.

>>74260925
>It's not possible

In the past, classical music was basically the pop-music of it's day. Your average person enjoyed it.

I think the University system took over classical music and ruined it, and they also stopped writing decent classical music.

The stuff I write has very simple melodies that you might hear in a pop song, but with some technical sections in there too.

I think this type of music (if marketed right) could resonate with the average person again

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tKfYwc4zxA

>It's a tradition that should be kept alive

I agree, and I think more classical musicians should make more simple solo compositions and play them in normal music venues.

That's my vision for the future of classical music, but maybe I'm retarded

i'm not a big fan of classical but i also feel like i'm just too ignorant to fully appreciate it atm so yeah go for it

>>74260962
Wow, I don't listen to classical much, but that performance was amazing.

File: Screenshot_20170731_041359.png (152KB, 764x740px) Image search: [Google]

152KB, 764x740px

Grainger was doing mashups of rare rural folk songs 100 years ago

>bought one of the first phonograph recorders
>would take it to tiny villages way out in the countryside of ireland, england, and scotland.
>find the oldest people
>make them sing folk songs from their childhood
>record that shit
>take the recordings back to his pad and make a sweet remix

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zstzhud01zc

>>74261034
Dude I fucking know right?

This new classical music is really catchy and fun. I think a lot more people would like classical music if they knew there was some good modern stuff here.

Here's some more interesting catchy/simple modern stuff

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlRwM3Yt4mE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFp6xnJbs0w

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmNUhNHG-_Y

(One piece that I perform)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AO9AhMqXs_s

>>74260962
>In the past, classical music was basically the pop-music of it's day.
thats not true at fucking all. pop music of the past was folkshit about fucking princesses and not fucking classical music. are you out of your mind

>>74261051
I definitely appreciate the idea. I have thought about making some bluegrass themed classical music before.

But holy shit that is some awful music right there

>>74261061
Bitches pussies' were dripping wet and literally passing out while watching Franz Liszt. It was called "The Liszt Fever" or some shit.

Yeah pretty sure average people were attending classical concerts back in the day, like in the 1600-1800's.

>folk music was about fucking princesses
For real?

>>74260962
>In the past, classical music was basically the pop-music of it's day. Your average person enjoyed it.

That's simply not true. Most of it was made by contract for the elite. Once the Romantic era began things started changing a bit.

>>74260925
>It's a tradition that should be kept alive.

This so fucking much. It's still rather alive. But it would be a massive fucking shame to not take care of it.

>>74260990
I doubt it. Classical music is for everybody, you just need to find the right thing at the right time in your life (or it finds you... whatever, you know how it works). It's such a broad term for so many things that actually are in a lot of places; you've got operas, solo chamber music, sonatas for trios, cantatas, liturgical music, tone poetry, lots of crossovers (with electronic music, with jazz), short, happy, long, complex, simple, pastoral, angry, depressive etc. etc. I know I'm spouting umbrella terms and broad descriptors but the world of CM is so expansive and covers so many different types of orchestras/bands/whatever you want to call it and instruments that I'll never believe that a person can not get into it somehow. It's just like everything else, the quality and styles vary a whole fucking lot.

It saddens me though that people think of it as some artsy fartsy music that's too deep for them. But I too think we can somehow bridge the gap. I'm working on it as well.

There's a ton of shit I wanted to say but I forgot so whatever.

Anyway OP, just fucking do it. Don't give up. You have something that's rare; you've got love for music that's very important to us and you've got the ability to make it. Yes it may die but on the other hand there might be a revival one day. Maybe not in our lifetimes but you CAN contribute and modernize it and times DO change.

>>74260962
>In the past, classical music was basically the pop-music of it's day.
Not really true. Orchestral music in the era of Louis XIV up through Haydn for an example was written specifically for noble courts and patron princes. Even when public concerts became a thing, they were largely filled by aristocrats because they had the money for it. Someone might have to correct me on it but I believe Karajan's and Bernstein's fame from conducting and lecturing were the closest classical music has ever gotten to being "popular."
>I think the University system took over classical music and ruined it
Possibly true but I would need to see proof.
>Youtube link
You might want to consider writing for video games and stuff, that kind of music would fit very nicely in say an RPG. Actually OSTs are a good way to get the average person to listen to orchestral music. Though the sad thing is that after technological advancements allowed VGM composers to compose for live orchestras, they all forgot how to write melodies.

>>74261068
The magic of Grainger's orchestration is sort of lost when the sound is homogeonized like that, but his Lincolnshire Posy is without a doubt THE masterpiece of wind band literature.

>>74260903
Given that what you've said is true, is everyone in your life an international maestro and a classically trained musician?

>>74260903
>I can't help but feel like they are right. I want to modernize classical music and make it fun and passionate again for the average person though.
Again, given what you're saying is actually true, this is your mistake. Classical crossover already exists and it's an equivalent of smooth jazz - classical and jazz music to talk over to.

>>74261165
No, but I sort of think that musicians/artists/entrepreneurs can get caught up in their own bullshit pretty easily and not being properly reading the market to know if an idea is good or not.

I see musicians putting tons of time into a project even though it is obvious nobody is going to be into it when it's finished, I don't want to be that person.

>>74261210
>I see musicians putting tons of time into a project even though it is obvious nobody is going to be into it when it's finished, I don't want to be that person.
So don't make a living of being any sort of self respecting musician in this day and age. Here's what John McLaughlin had to say about that:
https://youtu.be/utqp7ECKUl0
https://youtu.be/5iubDTkT3Y4

>>74261056
I listened to them all. Thanks, kind Anon. The last link was neat given that I'm a guitarist as well. But, I'd have to say my absolute favorite was the third link. I'm a sucker for strings.

By the way, this reminds me of the fact that Baroque Pop/Chamber Pop is one of my favorite genres, which leads me to wonder if you've ever been interested in composing material of more so that style of music.

>>74261256
Lol shit

Luckily I have a bachelor's in business and a little bit of tech experience, but yeah making money off of music is just abysmal.

Listening to this guy say that the only way Classical/jazz can survive is if the government gets behind it does kinda make me wonder if classical/jazz should survive at all.

Like hip-hop/metal/country venues survive because people actually show up and buy tickets. If a genre can't survive like that, should it survive at all?

>>74261346
>baroque pop/chamber pop

Not really sure I know what it is, do you have a link?

I do a have a classical guitar/cello duet written though. It's difficult to find a quartet so I don't bother writing a lot of that stuff though

>>74261353
>Listening to this guy
>John McLaughlin
>This guy
>If a genre can't survive like that, should it survive at all?
Of course it should. And this is why I didn't trust you from the start. I can see I wasn't wrong and this is 4chan after all. Have you listened to what he said? Governments lose money, but the nations receives something much more valuable. And that's culture. Taking away one nation's culture is the best way of undermining and eventually destroying it.

>>74261441
>If I don't support socialized music then i'm "untrustworthy"

The mind of a socialist everybody.

Classical music is funded federally at the moment, that's why it's shit. Universities control classical music and safe-guard it as well.

To get into the classical music circuit, you have to win competitions, and PhD university professors are the judges. The winners are usually boring faggots who couldn't write a song if their life depended on it.

Then PhD professors have the winners start performing their own compositions, that's why we have "Post-modernist" classical music now that nobody wants to listen to. But it still gets financed because universities are publicly funded.

That's why we have this utter garbage
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7-MwJPqaB4

The only classical musicians who are writing half-decent stuff are people who are not in the university system, and somehow managed to get a following outside of the university system. Like the musicians here
>>74261056

>>74260962
>In the past, classical music was basically the pop-music of it's day. Your average person enjoyed it.

I'm not an expert by any means, but I'm a little sceptical about this. I imagine your real "average person" in the past would have listened predominately to their indigenous folk music and ballads etc., but that classical music had a far larger spread amongst the elites, because they were musically educated in childhood and almost all were taught to play some kind of instrument from a young age.

I could be wrong about that, but I can't imagine your average Joe peasant farmer really digging classical. But now, because of the societal shift we've undergone, I think things have settled into a position in the middle where everyone is more musically educated than your average person from one hundred years ago, and less musically educated than the elite or even middle class of one hundred years ago, which accounts for the explosion of creativity and complexity in popular music but the relative death of classical (since you basically need to be able to play an instrument to appreciate most classical--which is something I'm trying to do at the moment and finding myself more interested in classical the more I go on learning the theory)

>>74261493
>If I don't support socialized music then i'm "untrustworthy"
My posts had absolutely nothing to do with politics and I don't understand how you could've possibly deduced that I was a socialist. I don't trust you because of referring to John McLaughlin as just another guy and because trusting the opinion of people not in any way close to classical music rather than an international maestro (given that that's actually true).
>Classical music is funded federally at the moment, that's why it's shit.
So, what's your solution? To eradicate all "art" music? I'm sure that will serve and has served music as a whole well over the years.

>>74261621
Yeah John Mclaughlin's music is REALLY boring. Like almost gross sounding.

Joe Pass is the king of Jazz guitar.

>Trusting McLaughlin on his opinion of classical music

I mean he's right about jazz/classical, and the international maestro I know pretty much agrees with him. He travels to Europe/Mexico for most of his tours, and occasionally does concerts around America here and there.

And yeah it is true I've gone with him to Mexico on one of his tours

>What's my solution?
Classical music competitions stop being publicly funded so classical musicians actually have to start writing music that people enjoy listening to, or face going extinct (like every other genre of music does).

If Bach is good enough to continue being played, then classical musicians will keep performing his works without needing public funding behind it.

Or maybe I don't know what I'm talking about, but it seems like classical musicians feel like they can get away with doing absolutely anything because they are getting their funding no matter what, so they just write stupid pretentious bullshit. I feel like it is stiffling the innovation of classical music and ruining it's public image.

>>74261493
100% agree, I think classical musicians should head towards the nu-classical/post-rock shit if classical music should survive. The post-modern stuff is killing the genre

>>74261728
>The post-modern stuff is killing the genre
I think this is something we can all agree on. PoMo is trash that needs to die in all spheres of life, esp. music and painting where it produced very little of worth

>>74261677
I agree about Joe Pass, although for me other kings would be - Grant Green, Wes, Benson (purely because of his technique and unique sound) and Jim Hall among others. Interesting fact - Roy Clark of all people played with Joe Pass. I'd say that classical music competitions shouldn't be viewed as such. What other purpose does it serve besides to stifle any genuine desire for changing contemporary music for the better?

>>74260962
Classical music was made for the royal courts, average people listened to folk bands.
What happened was that composers during the romantic era stopped catering their music to the elite and instead made art for the sake of truth and god and so on and so on.
Composers started making more and more nonfunctional music, and by the mid 20th century almost everyone was making atonal music. Art music shifted from being an upper class thing to being an academic thing.

And I think rich people just lost interest in funding such a niche market. Most billionares today aren't oldschool aristocrats, they're oil sheiks and technerds that would rather pay for a private concert with katy perry than help build an opera house.

And if you look at all the underfunded concert halls, they only play dead composers because those are the only ones that normies want to listen to.


Also why is everyone in this thread such a poptimist, you really want people to please crowds instead of making the music they want to make?
Guys like Sakamoto and Einaudi just make instrumental pop music. And that's fine if that's what you like, but claiming that all contemporary classical needs to be like this just because you don't like it is so fucking stupid.

Art music has finally broken free of the bourgeoise, and is now free to do whatever the fuck it wants.

I'll drop a few links of some of my favorite contemporary works of the spectral school

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DyNmATgL7Cw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFncet5VHRs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXaNFBzgDWI&t=79s (probably my fav)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1YK3ah4nAA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ix7UEfiC9MQ (very ambient)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xtx7NOXamfA (also very ambient, love scelsi)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWPJITkx81Q
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lA5K0pVC-yU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwZjkmovMwE

>>74261741
Given the broad range of artists who could be considered post modernists, which ones would you consider noteworthy?

>>74261078
It's true. Liszt was still only playing for the upper classes.

Furthermore, bringing art music back down to the level of the masses will kill it. It's elitist because it's practiced at an elite level, it has been that way for centuries.

All art is this way. 80% of the people that you see at an art gallery don't get the paintings that they see, they are just there to look like they care the way that they think that everybody cares. Most don't even look at the artefacts with their eyes. They take their instagram selfie in front of it and move on.

What really needs to be done is either further music education, or somehow show everybody how culturally significant art music is, so that they pretend to understand it, the same way that they do with Jackson Pollock.

>>74261830
>rich people don't want to fund atonal music

Yeah because hardly anybody connects with it

>poptimist
>why are you against people making music they want to make

Classical music with beautiful melodies is what I want to make. I like poppy classical music, and I think the masses could enjoy it too.

Universities are ONLY funding this post-modern music meme. They don't promote anything else. They are autistically glued to this vision of post-modern atonal shit being the epitome of high-art.

If there are a few artists who want to make that stuff, sure whatever. I won't listen to it but maybe some people will get something out of it.

But the major music institutions ONLY funding that shit? That's seriously ridiculous. I went to go see Marcin dylla in Chicago

Obviously he is high on the smell of his own bullshit. The first 1/4th of the concert he plays normal beautiful music by heitor villa lobos.

The rest of the concept was pure post modern shit. Literally just 10 minute atonal gibberish. Like half of the attendees didn't come back from the interlude.

I laughed. What a fucking faggot. I will never go see him again

>>74262137
I suppose you were referring to pieces like this:
https://youtu.be/je3mwkuJ2z8

>>74262411
Yes.

Holy shit it's 18 minutes long too.

If you threw in a piece like this to your performance and it was like 2 minutes long of just insane angry gibberish, that could be cool.

But 18 minutes of pure trash? Is this a shit-test from the academic world and we need to put them in their place or something?

>>74262482
I think pieces like this aren't something that should be performed on a classical guitar at all. Those are better suited for piano improvisations in the style of Cecil Taylor. As well as something like this on an electric guitar:
https://youtu.be/y2KvQuLJspY
https://youtu.be/2LgCqcmruGU
https://youtu.be/JOGdAFxe9_0
On the other hand, I think this is how it should be done:
https://youtu.be/arCDeEv_nHw
https://youtu.be/u4AwHYeEEAA
https://youtu.be/vU9vkSXXhPc

>>74262608
Some of these are just as bad as certain no wave bands who refused to attain any level of technical competency on their instruments. I suppose Derek Bailey was a jazz guitar player first of all and decided to play like this on purpose.

>>74262608
>that first piece

Holy shit he has to be trolling

>>74262678
Competence*

>>74262137
>>74262411
>>74262482
>>74262608
I don't know about the situation in the states, but in Europe (or Denmark atleast), the focus in conservatories is not so much on specifically atonal music, but rather on innovation and personality. Which means you're free to do what you want, as long as it hasn't been done before, so you can make tonal music, it's just harder to innovate tonal music. I know some people who got through conservatory without stretching tonality more than early stravinsky.
I think the conservatories focus to much on innovation, but it's better than only producing bach clones.

I'm not that into classical guitar, but yeah that first marcin dylla link just sounds like prog wank, i liked the bit in the middle with the harmonics tho.
Here are some modern guitar pieces i like
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBHRr9LJkUg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrehXnrDY1M

>>74260925
Can be done:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfFzXOsxdok

>>74262692
>Holy shit he has to be trolling
Never heard Feldman before eh? he's dead serious. Just lots of space to digest each sound.

>>74263034
Murail is always great, love that piece. The Scelsi was meh though, and I like Scelsi.

We should definitely have more threads like this. I haven't bothered to visit /classical/ more than 3 times. It's honestly hardly better than any other general, except the occasional /jazz/ and this thread was surprisingly positive and productive.

Im for making simpler tunes for the masses but the kind of people that would attract is just not worth it, Schoenberg already gets shit on by academics enough, i wouldn't want high schoolers with no knowledge of musical history shitting on him on top of that.

>>74261051
grainger also reportedly fucked his own mum and had a dungeon of whips

>>74261353
most orchestras are subsidised by governments/third parties.

>>74261493
kek, this faggot is trying so hard to be artsy. Probably spent more time on his hair than on his guitar technique. A lot of this is why I hate classical guitar. such a fucking joke

>>74264283
He's performed vastly different pieces though:
https://youtu.be/lP-sjw_2IqY
https://youtu.be/BjmWCqAZRpM

I feel that classical is doing fine because it is still at the forefront of overall musical innovation. But at this point it's so insanely far ahead of popular music that most people have no clue what's going on in it. Hell, even most of the guys at /classical/ aren't the biggest fans of post-WW2 music either.

>>74264441
The entire genre of classical guitar is just people who are trying to convice themselves that it's a worthwhile instrument. there's nothing a guitar can do that a harpsichord can't. It's just making a mountain out of a molehill so guitarists can have "muh technique" like violinists and keep their nails long, begging for people to ask why so they can say, "ACTUALLY I'M A CLASSICAL GUITARIST"

>>74262482
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7-MwJPqaB4
I disagree, I enjoyed that a lot. It was very tonal in someplaces (particularly the ending). Lost of Interesting textures and interesting lines/convincingly performed

>>74262482
>>74264545
Yeah, I followed this link prepared for some sort of Penderecki bullshit and was pleasantly surprised. It's not my favorite, but these people act like he started pissing into the guitar halfway through.

>>74264542
A guitar's timbre is generally much more intimate and warm than a harpsichord, and tremolo is much easier, allowing for pieces like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7iVFncQADvc

>>74264542
>>74264790
that and dynamics/vibrato

>>74264790
ok fair enough, but it's still the most inefficient way to produce tones and show counterpoint for very little added benefit. you could just put nylon strings on a harpsichord if you wanted.
Also Why don't they just use the plastic fake fingernails instead? In every online discussion I've found, most guitarists admit there isn't any tone difference. When our orchestra has solo'd with guitarists, they are always sanding their nails every 10 seconds to feel special, and they even have to be amped over the orchestra because it's too quiet.

>>74261830
second one was nice

>>74264725
Penderecki is great though?

>>74264847
I remember hearing from one classical guitar soloist who said if she broke a nail she would cut down a ping pong ball and glue it to her fingernail

>>74264864
seconded - I really like his viola concerto

>>74264790
On the other end of the spectrum, there are madmen like these:
https://youtu.be/v35YhhzCrYk
https://youtu.be/6wpHolKLClQ
https://youtu.be/9ExFsLH-O-o
I simply can't stand classical or acoustic guitar being used a percussive instrument. Tommy Emmanuel and a couple of other have done it, there's no need to hear anyone else.

>>74260903
>regardless, everybody in my personal life tells me that classical music is a dead genre and to not bother putting any effort into it

Then they're non-professionals and also idiots. Orchestral music is still very popular and even used in movie and video game scores. Do what you want not what some simpletons want.

What do you have to do to know about classical music on an elite level? I know basic music theory and enjoy every classical piece I've listened to (including modern classical), but I'm not sure if I'm "getting it"

>>74264872
Pretty ridiculous. Why not just make ping pong fingerpicks and forego the stress of breaking a nail?

>>74264908
read along with the scores. I like doing that. Other than that, go to your local symphony every chance you get.

>>74264931
Should I go to a music school to learn how to appreciate it? I've recently broke out of the habit of passive listening to everything. Do I need to fully understand music theory to fully understand why a classical piece is good?

>>74260962
For the most part the masses didn't listen to symphonies or grand operas. They listened to folk music. Mozart, for example wrote Papageno's arias to be more familiar to the masses and get them to enjoy his work. You can really tell the folk influences on the arias.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqwBZ639pvw

>>74264864
Not to poop on Penderecki, I was just expecting a wash of harsh dissonance and that's not at all what I got
>>74264886
I hadn't heard his viola concerto before, thanks for making me aware of it. It's a lot less fatiguing than the other works I've heard from him.

>>74261210
Yeah but those people you talked to would probably not be considered part of the classical music market. It's like going to a video game seller and asking their opinion on shoes.

>>74264951
>>74264951
Do you play any instruments? Ultimately there is no total understanding of theory, and even the most accomplished theorists have unanswered questions about the most basic pieces.
No, don't go to music school. Go on youtube and watch the Bernstein lectures and absorb all you can. The great thing about music is that it can be absorbed both emotionally/spiritually and mentally. Focus on what keys/modes are happening and what the instrumentation is. Your local symphony has professional musicians who are paid to put together diverse programs of well-know/great works and less known pieces, so I suggest you regularly attend.

the GOATs were just too good. same with opera. no classical composer will ever again be worthy of recognition. and the musicians are all alcoholics.

write a musical instead OP. you might make some money and will no doubt enjoy plenty of hot young dick.

>>74265045
I play bass guitar, just started guitar and am starting on piano when I get back from a vacation. Will watch the Bernstein lectures

>>74264847
>most inefficient way to produce tones
what do you mean?

If you want to shit on guitar players that's cool, but you don't have to take it out on the guitar, anon

>Go to music school
>Everyone is an insufferable faggot
>Get burnt out on classical guitar and never want to touch it again
>The other people who graduated with me are working at jobs that have nothing to do with music

Yes I'm still mad

>>74265074
Neat. I play electric bass and jazz guitar too, and I'm trying to start on Piano. Watch this. This is a wonderful introduction to the world of theory on one of my all-time favorite pieces.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVGBH8JmF5U
I have been playing violin since I was 6 (semi-professionally at times) and it's amazing to me how much most musicians are lacking in knowledge of theory (myself included). I've come to believe that the key to understanding Western music is competency at the piano.
>>74265079
I'm saying that for all the work and equipment required, it seems that there isn't much payoff. You have to guard and pamper your nails, carry around that stupid footstool and special bench, all with a much steeper learning curve than a keyboard instrument for playing the same notes and phrases. Sorry if I shat all over guitars in a guitar thread.

>>74265159
How'd you learn jazz guitar? I've always been interested in that, especially the improvisationatory aspect of it.

>>74265231
I'm not a master or anything yet, only started with jazz a year ago or so. Right now I play slowly by ear, learning licks and working through the Mickey Baker jazz guitar book

>>74265159
I agree that competency at the piano provides greater understanding and easier analysis of music, but I don't think keyboards render the guitar obsolete, or even irrelevant, which seems to be your point.

>for all the work and equipment required

the creation of a guitar is much less complicated than any keyboard, and it's a lot easier to carry around a bench and footstool than a keyboard.

The guitar, due to its portable nature and relatively low price, enable easy music engagement, and the frets allow pretty easy chord playing. Even though it might be more of an every-man's instrument, and less help in harmonic analysis than the piano, I see no problem with composers creating serious music for it and players treating it seriously.

>>74265100
>Get burnt out on classical guitar and never want to touch it again
Yeah, most people who start young, as I did (10), end up resenting classical guitar. My teacher wasn't the greatest and that didn't help either, although I've started to appreciate the knowledge much later, as well as coming back to classical guitar.

>This anti-PoMo/anti-free tonality circlejerk
Fuck off. Just because the layman has no clue wtf is going on or if it includes things so alien to a listener that they have to get used to it doesn't make it shit.

Also on the guitars thing, I am kinda in the middle in that guitars are capable of working with certain techniques/timbres not possible on other instruments, but for some reason it's not taken as big an advantage of in classical compared to say...what a lot of composers have done with cellos/double basses in the past handful of decades.
>>74265058
>same with opera.
Robert Ashley got a ton of acclaim even after his death for his posthumous released opera last year. Dude's easily been one of the most original guys to do it in a long time, and his goofy two albums that get posted here by avant teens isn't gonna change that.
>no classical composer will ever again be worthy of recognition.
Brian Ferneyhough? Wolfgang Rihm?

>>74265439
I think a large part of the guitar neglect by classical composers is due to its limitations regarding dynamics. It's a struggle to hear a guitar over a regular orchestra unless it's amplified, so its repertoire is overwhelmingly solo or chamber works. Kind of like how the clavichord was regarded as a more private/intimate instrument than the harpsichord.

>>74265058
There are still composers who make operas in recent years (like Adams). Though I would say the operetta is virtually dead. If anything deserves a rebirth it is the operetta.

>>74265514
Oh yeah, in terms of older stuff, I agree 100%. But thanks to mics and amplification, the instrument has so much more potential now.

>>74265366
I agree that the portable nature of the guitar makes it a more appealing medium for music. That's all well and good. What I don't understand is removing those portable qualities (using all finger on the right hand individually instead of a pick, fingernails, footstand, necessary amplification, etc) and pretending that the instrument still has the same merits once weighed down. It has a slightly softer sound than most harps or harpsichords, ability for tremolo and slight vibrato, and relatively easy chord formations, but polyphony is limited by number of strings rather than number of fingers (6 vs 10) and requires substantially more skill and effort to play equivalent melodies and harmonies than a keyboard instrument.
Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against most guitar and I spend a lot of time playing my stratocaster. It's cheap, fun, easy to play, indestructible, I can create melodies/chords easily and play dozens of different styles on it. I'm just saying that trying to take the guitar to such a refined, technical art is a mistake.

>>74265533
I'm not sure if composers just don't want to compose for it, or audiences don't want 'muh amplification' in their concert halls. Maybe I'm wrong and there are new guitar pieces coming out that I haven't heard yet.

>>74265539
>I'm just saying that trying to take the guitar to such a refined, technical art is a mistake.
Judging by everything you've said before, this is a contradiction. And why shouldn't guitar be taken to such refined, technical art? Have you ever listened to jazz guitar players?

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>>74265596
Not a contradiction. By "taken to a refined, technical art" I am referring to purely the technique of playing the instrument, which is an art in and of itself.

Of course I have listened to jazz guitar players. They don't make any pretenses about their technique. They hold the pick with two fingers, hold the guitar comfortably, and spend the rest of the time worrying about the notes and melodies they're playing, not about technique. Classical guitarists, in my experience, make a gigantic deal out of trying to apply the same level of technique as a concert violinist when it really doesn't matter very much. In doing so, they strip the guitar of every advantage it had in the first place. What you end up with is an instrument that's harder to play but more limited sonically. A guitar sounds just as good when it's played like pic related.

>>74260903
Please post a clip of one of your compositions - performed or done electronically.

>>74265676
>They don't make any pretenses about their technique. They hold the pick with two fingers, hold the guitar comfortably, and spend the rest of the time worrying about the notes and melodies they're playing, not about technique.
Not about technique? How? Jazz guitar isn't exactly beginner level or even close to it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RuXIMQGqXGk
And here's one of the most inventive and unique guitar players who's reinvented his technique and style many times:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjXskKsUy9c
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjXskKsUy9c
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSqz17gtv8U
You can't say at least these two aren't worried about technique.

>>74265539
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gCLpbaaRRA
here's a ten-string guitar, but it's pretty rare. Entering lute territory at this point.

I don't understand why anyone would be against exploring the technical limitations and pushing the boundaries of an instrument. As a violinist you know there are certain bow-holds and ways to hold the violin that facilitate easier playing, with less strain. Are you asserting that the techniques that classical guitarists have accumulated hold no similar physical benefit to playing the instrument?

Classical guitarists aren't holding their instrument a certain way and dragging around foot stools just to put on airs, although you may have met some shitty guitarists that seem to have done that. They do it because that's what they've been taught, and to assume it's of no use, or even a detriment, would imply that the vast number of classical guitarists that have lived and died have spent no time experimenting with better ways to play, which is patently ridiculous, since anyone who plays an instrument at a level above a dilettante would want knowledge on how to make playing easier.

>>74265574
There's the kind of amplified stuff Rhys Chatham and Glenn Branca do which uses amplification to create distorted walls of sound that focus on progression through harmonic overtones.

There's also something like Brian Ferneyhough's No Time (at all) for two guitars. It uses a lot of the guitar's ability to deliver tremolos, its ability to play muted then normally at will, its ability to create interesting harmonic sounds, and its ability to play these loud sounding percussive bits where the string hits the neck really hard by pulling the string upward. Also a couple bits where they use the body as a percussion instrument as well. There's also like sliding bits akin to string instruments but played into the piano-like multiparts that classical guitar often does.

>>74265817
Thanks for the recs, although that Ferneyhough is a little too PoMo for my poor, undeveloped classical ears.

>>74265676
>>74265799
I'm still not sure you're referring to entirely to technique.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOytxlE6jPM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWwk2_eOers
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9RS4biqyAc

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ITT: Literal retards.

Classical music was NOT the pop music of the past, traditional folk was.

Classical does NOT need to return to pre-20th century shit because all of those styles have already been mastered, classical thrives on innovation, and there is nothing innovative left to be done in those older styles, and that is why classical has moved on from them, and contemporary composers sound so bizarre.

Post-modern isn't a thing anymore either--the post-modern era already ended, so calling anything made this century "post-modern" is incorrect. I don't get why post-modern is such a massive boogeyman for people.

You can jerk off over conventional pleasant harmony and melody all you want but the composers who matter are pushing the genre forward and in order to do that, some things have to be abandoned now. It will take a technical revolution on the level of the first available electronic instruments to make melody relevant again.

Stop with this "make classical great again" crap and accept that you just don't like the way the art form has progressed.

>>74265929
>It will take a technical revolution on the level of the first available electronic instruments to make melody relevant again.
Either that or people reinventing current technology for anything other than its intended use. The way Chris Carter and Peter "Sleazy" Christopherson pioneered a sampler.

>>74265929
what do we call music made this century, then? plain old art music?

>>74265978
shit. back then it was REAL music. #1800tillinfinity

>>74261082
>you just need to find the right thing at the right time in your life
exactly, which is why i said atm because i know it'll click at some point
>It saddens me though that people think of it as some artsy fartsy music that's too deep for them
i don't think that, i just know that it requires intent listening and unless it's jazz i'm not very good at that

>>74266125
I'm sure classical music exists that doesn't require intent listening, although it might be the kind of low-hanging fruit that people might dislike. If I want to veg out without concentrating I just put on some strauss waltzes, for example.

>>74265929
>classical has moved on from them
What is neo-classical for 500? Also just because the prevailing style isn't po-mo doesn't mean po-mo is 100% dead.

>>74266154
it all just sounds like a flurry to me sadly, i don't hear any of the nuances that i probably should hear

>>74260903
>fun and passionate again for the average person
The only way to revive classical would be to make it fun and passionate again for the average rich person, since the upper class was the one which actually paid for and listened to classical in the old days.

>>74261353
>Listening to this guy say that the only way Classical/jazz can survive is if the government gets behind it does kinda make me wonder if classical/jazz should survive at all.
Why Americans are so triggered at the idea that a government could fund anything that isn't the police or war ?
Lots of research in electronic music has happened in government-backed structures like ORTF/GRM and IRCAM in France, WDR in German, NHK in Japan, etc. There has been nothing comparable to Bell Labs for music and probably never will, because it's not profitable, and there is more to life than economic profits.
Stop falling for the neoliberalism meme. More funding for high culture, less for wars breeding terrorism, please.

>>74266154
lol strauss are you serious?

>>74266264

>What is neo-classical

something that ended several decades ago

>>74266471
what's wrong with johann?

>>74265929
>classical thrives on innovation
explain why pls

>>74266505
everything, andre rieu tier, more folk than classical.

>>74266719
>>74266154
>If I want to veg out without concentrating
nothing wrong with some easy listening now and then, anon. I like folk music.

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*ruins classical music forever*

Pssh.....nothing personal kiddo

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>>74266777
He was accused of it too.

>>74266768
What's with the stigma? I don't think you and the ones you replied too would consider any genre of music besides classical worthless and irredeemable. And it's not like you're talking about smooth "jazz" here.

>>74260903 (OP)
>Is pursuing classical music a pointless endeavor because of the terrible reputation and image it has with the average person these days?
Maybe if you're talking to ghetto niggers. I think the average person has reverence for classical music, but feels intimidated by it, because it seems like something only sophisticated people enjoy.

>>74266918
Listening to Strauss waltzes, folk songs I've memorized the lyrics to, and other similar pieces is an entirely different feeling than listening to something like a Mahler symphony, or for me a Bach piece or something similar.

If I'm not paying significant attention to that second kind of music, thirty seconds later I've realized I have no idea what I've just heard and I don't know what's going on. The first kind allows me to slip in and out of the music while I'm doing something else; it kind of enables a flow state. I'd never try to listen to a piece for the first time while doing something else, however. The second requires (for me) devoted listening, because then the music is the main focus.

>>74260903
There's still people composing stuff, I wouldn't say that's dead, but the classical tradition might be kind of dead at this point. I'm not sure if it's entirely pointless, but definitely check out more contemporary stuff. For guitar specifically, people like Leo Brouwer and Roland Dyens definitely come to mind. Recently found a composer named Dusan Bogdanovic that I've been enjoying. Here's some random shit
https://youtu.be/DrehXnrDY1M
https://youtu.be/1yDPHb99sAw
https://youtu.be/Zb-_4Io94d0
https://youtu.be/QCINZEVbceE
https://youtu.be/4YxcsaHbRGw
https://youtu.be/DWKJrLE0bMI
There's probably a lot more stuff from Dusan Bogdanovic I'm missing. There's some youtube channels like score follower, or George N. Gianopoulos you should check out, they upload all shorts of compositions

>>74267350
upload all sorts*
fucking mobile keyboard. Here's something that isn't for guitar that I still thought was neat
https://youtu.be/xRye7ydeeK4

>>74260962
>>74260962
Just get a launchpad and pirate ableton

>>74264283
>>74264283

He's actually an incredible guitarist. One of my favorites

But so much of his repertoire is absolute shit. When he plays normal stuff, it's incredible.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqOV8HEJ6eg

>>74264542
There is a large repertoire of classical music that is exclusively on the classical guitar though.

Look up any composition by Roland Dyens, it's fucking incredible

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUDo869Zy6w

>>74267350
Yes I perform a few pieces by both Dyens and Brouwer.

Although Dyens died recently if you didn't hear.

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>>74267816
Yeah, feels bad man