/classical/

The fact that so many pianists still name Rachmaninoff as "the greatest or most significant or most influential" piano composer ever only tells you how far piano music still is from becoming a serious art.

>>74253608
This is fucking autistic, so I'll believe you're not new.
Listen to Mozart.

>>74253983
Literally just make your own /orchestral/ thread it's not that hard jesus
this one isn't going anywhere for awhile and classical music doesn't have to be sectioned off in one thread only

>>74254164
there isn't enough interest in /classical/ threads to warrant splitting them up into subgenres.

And anyway that guy is an idiot who is trying to demonstrate his knowledge by claiming that "classical" only refers to the Classical period when anyone who has done even five minutes of reading on the subject will know that it's merely shorthand for "Western Art Music".

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Is it OK to rest your trumpet on the horn or will it bend it over time? I don't do it but it would make life easier than putting it in the case every short break

>>74254662
get a fuckin stand for it dude what are you doing

>>74254680
Cool, didn't know these existed.

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Can I get a quick rundown on Debussy? Where do I start? Which performer? Thanks

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Looking for a d/l to Beethoven's Late String Quartets. Archive isn't helpful.

>>74255034
Check the links, I think there's Hollywood, Busch, Takacs. Take your pick.

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Not really classical but I'm interested in old stuff. Like, before Baroque. I was checking a playlist for biblical music and they said they wouldn't include anuthing from before the 1600s, so that sparked my interest. Where to start?

What are in your opinion the greatest classical box sets?

I really enjoy the glenn gould original jacket collection, the deutche gramophone original legendary recordings vol 1 and 2, the decca sound, the complete karajan recordings on DG and EMI, the complete maria callas recordings, the vladimir horowitz original jacket collection. The original masters collection by DG looks cool, but I haven't really dived into it very much yet.

I really want that Arthur Rubinstein complete album collection (the one with 144 discs), but that is super difficult to find. I also want the decca legendary performances collection, but that only seems to be available on pippo9, and I need a stupid uploaded subscription to get it, and uploaded won't accept my credit card for some reason, and I don't know how to use bitcoin.

>>74255984
there's a set of New York Philharmonic live broadcasts of Mahler, really good recordings in there.

Also, that ferenc fricsay complete recordings collection looks awesome.

>>74255946
that Hilliard Ensemble album with Perotin is essential

>>74254870
Last composer in the world who could match Beethoven and Wagner in a similar tier of genius

Post what you are listening to right now

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7NtNqySz-U

>>74256774
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OxQjchA_L10

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>>74254870

>>74256774
https://soundcloud.com/psllbof/fugue-in-d-minor

>>74256774
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ema60Nd4MHg

>>74256774
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jhliylSE0U

>>74256774
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39eBIX3PYL0

>>74256774
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLuB43OV8lo

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>>74255984
Rosen wasn't just a great writer, but a genuinely great pianist as well. There's some very good recordings on this boxset, and the repertoire is wide.

>>74256030
It's way overpriced and most of the recordings are in poor sound. You can find better performances and recordings from the same conductors by selecting individual recordings from other labels. It has the much vaunted (I would say overrated) Stokowski 8th, but that can now be heard in a superior remaster on United Classics. As I recall, it also features a typically truncated Mitropoulous 6th in the tonality-scheme-undermining Andante-Scherzo version. The documentary and the booklets are perhaps the only reason to get it, but for the money it isn't worth it, and if you're getting it via torrent chances are whoever uploaded it didn't bother (because they're enormous) to scan the books in full anyway.

What can you recommend that is similar in tone to Largo Al Factotum? Something a bit humorous or lighthearted and upbeat.

>>74260709
I'm no expert, but here's some you might like
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=va6EVm5dZfc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fE9mpCAz5nk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPBJY99mOQI

>>74260764

I guess more Rossini does scratch the itch.

>>74260697
>You can find better performances and recordings from the same conductors by selecting individual recordings from other labels
not in every case, and i would say that the Tennstedt 5th for instance is stronger than his other live recordings. the Kubelik 7th is wildily different than all of his other recordings of the piece, and if you really want Boulez in Mahler, live is typically the way to go.
>I would say overrated
overrated by whom? Cooke? historical enthusiasts? honestly, it's not really a recording that i see much discussion about at all, even within niche circles. it's probably my second favorite 8th personally speaking. can't say i consider the United Classics version superior - they hit the compressor a bit too much, and the low-end is boosted far too much for my tastes.
>As I recall, it also features a typically truncated Mitropoulous 6th
he skips most repeats, but there isn't any cuts iirc
>in the tonality-scheme-undermining Andante-Scherzo version
while i prefer Scherzo-Andante myself, there is a case to be had for the former, especially given the murky situation in which Mengelberg made the Scherzo-Andante decision, and Alma's inconsistent testimony regarding the choice.
>and if you're getting it via torrent chances are whoever uploaded it didn't bother (because they're enormous) to scan the books in full anyway.
they're scanned in full (in very good scans) in the upload of which I am aware.

can't argue about the overpricing, but that's typical of all historical boxsets pretty much. and it doesn't seem like the other guy is interested in purchasing anything anyway.

>>74260697
>As I recall, it also features a typically truncated Mitropoulous 6th in the tonality-scheme-undermining Andante-Scherzo version.
my favorite 6th. it omits the 1st movement repeat. why would anybody want longer mahler?

>>74260817
recently listened to one of Haitink's very early Mahler recordings of the 6th (live)

i don't know if it's the recording balance or what, but the winds have just the right amount of spotlighting (that fucking oboe) and the RCO sounds so at home in the piece. really solid performance, even if Haitink is otherwise just a bit too vanilla for my tastes

>>74260891
that sounds very haitink

>>74260917
can't say i'm generally a fan, but it did feel like a particularly "right" approach to a work that i usually feel some aversion to. i have to admit, it's probably my least favorite Mahler. i'm usually almost worn out by the finale (and most certainly always worn out if it's Andante-Scherzo)

>>74260954
I think the piece that wears me out the most if Brahms' 2nd Piano Concerto. I have no shame in admitting I usually skip the first movement.

>>74260954
of mahler I enjoy the 6th a lot, but it certainly falls under the firetruck syndrome in that the horns often have to be blared every fucking time otherwise the musical effect is lost. it gets tiring. it's also too damn long but that's what I think for every mahler symphony anyway except for possibly the 9th. im not at all susprised where webern comes from

>>74260817
It isn't "longer" Mahler, it's regular Mahler; longer Mahler would be that insanely slow Klemperer 7th. The repeat is crucial to the first movement's sonata form, and also to the structural balance of the whole symphony. Without it, the first movement feels like a puff, and finale is then made far too heavy, regardless of any rebalancing of tempi the conductor makes to correct this.

>>74260814
>"better"
Yes, of course it's a matter of taste. For me, I'd rather hear Kubelik with the Bayerischen Rundfunks, their live cycle in particular is superb. I do feel however that the sound is simply mediocre throughout the set, partly that is just because they are old recordings, but there's plenty of Mahler from '58 onwards which sounds much better. Hell, even Walter's '47 mono 5th sounds better than most of what is available in that set.

>stokowski
Every time I hear about it, it is spoken of as though it were beyond reproach. Whenever I listen to it I am certainly not bored by it, but I have never seen what could bring people to such absolutist defence of it. There is a reverence, at least among a certain generation, for Stokowski in pretty much anything that is kind of nauseating to me.

>skipped repeat, no cut
Skipping the repeat is a cut. I kind of admire Mitropoulous's "straight ahead" approach on some level, but in the 6th Mahler is very consciously commenting on the traditional four movement symphony, and the repeated exposition in the first movement is crucial not only to the movement's own balances, but to the balance of the symphony as a whole. When Schoenberg remarked that there was nothing extraneous in the 6th, he absolutely meant it.

>andante-scherzo
One point on Mahler in which I am willing to ignore Mahler's own supposed wishes. It has always sounded wrong to me, but again, it's a matter of personal preference. Perhaps I will come to appreciate it one of these days.

>scans
Can't argue with that.

>>74261132
Add: On points against Mahler's own wishes, I'm also perfectly happy that most conductors ignore the long pause after the first movement of the 3rd.

>>74261132
as you might guess, i think regular mahler is still too long.

regardless I think there's so much going on in the 4th movement that no 1st movement repeat, often a mere difference of 4 minutes, would somehow balance it out.

>>74261192
To each their own. I don't try to hide my biases, I'm probably forgiving of excess in Mahler where I would jump on it in, say Strauss.

>>74261132
a reverance for Stokowski is pretty understandable. he's easily in the top 5 of most influential recorded conductors. i might even put him in the top 3. i don't think he's beyond reproach, and most of his later studio recordings are inferior to his previous ones (mostly in regards to that god-awful Decca Phase 2 stage)

and i'd also rather hear Kubelik with "his" orchestra as well. though i think there's something to be said of the particularly "dreamy" quality he gives the middles movements there.

iirc, Chailly said something about preferring Andante-Scherzo because he felt that the Scherzo's tempi would structurally be deadlocked with the tempi of the first movement, and that he couldn't make it the "manic" rush of a movement that he wanted it to be. not too sure about that myself, but i agree with you that Andante-Scherzo sounds wrong. also, i need a break before the finale and the Andante helps with that.

>>74261208
I don't really find the length excessive, I just prefer that mahler wrote more pieces instead of everything in one. the only thing sometimes "excessive" I find in mahler is his orchestration

>>74261225
ive actually listened to some of the a-s recordings as s-a instead for the reasons you've said and I find chaillys opinion agreeable. the listener very well remembers the opening bars of the 1st movement and going speedily into the similar 2nd movement is a little jarring

>>74261225
I keep meaning to check out Chailly's Mahler. He's not a conductor I'm all that familiar with in general, but his Varèse set was very important for me as a teenager.

I'm not sure the Scherzo is supposed to be a manic rush, Mahler marked it "wuchtig", or "heavy", and I think it is supposed to be somewhat more moderately or wearily paced, rather than an explosive scherzo like the 5th's. As usual, if only Mahler had lived to record some basic mono we would have a better idea of how it "should" sound.

>>74261293
You don't care for the "it must contain everything" conception of the symphony? It's understandable, they are exhaustive and exhausting, but Mahler did leave us plenty of rather restrained and tasteful Lieder, at least. I know some people who can't stand the numbered symphonies but rather love Das Lied von der Erde or Des Knaben Wunderhorn, for example.

As for the orchestration, I find one of the things modern recordings—while they may not have the forceful character of a "great" conductor behind them—can offer is a greater sense of Mahler's brilliance and subtlety in that area. If you haven't heard Boulez's Mahler, his orchestral balancing and the excellent recording quality really open up a "conductor's eye view" of the music. But maybe it is exactly that level of detail in the orchestration that is excessive for you.

>>74261462
Chailly's older RCO set utilizes (alledgedly) Megenlberg's metronome markings very literally (even though Mengelberg never did), and it's quite slow. it's well played and imposing, but the rythm is lacking a bit, in my opinion.

his later recordings with the Leipzig orchestra are better, and i think in particular he did a very good job with the 9th. he also implements a lot more portamento on the strings than most modern conductors, which i appreciate.

>>74261462
I do like das lied a great deal

there's no doubt mahler orchestration is remarkable, but I have a personal distaste of his common use of triangle and also sometimes the use of horns (mostly in the 5th and 6th).

as for modern recordings, I have listened to a lot of them under the sun. I'm waiting for if and when ilan volkov will conduct a mahler album...

Why is the HIP movement so lazy and restrained when it comes to the romantics?

>>74261595
I don't think anyone really has the balls to revive those performing styles just yet. Though I wouldn't mind hearing Wagner in a reduced orchestra with gut strings.

>>74261595
because HIP researches traditions that existed before institutionalized training via conservatoires.
>>74261615
why.jpg
wagner was one of the first germans who made use of french conservatoire paradigms.

>>74261595
>>74261615
Wait now I want to hear Symphonie fantastique with Berlioz's envisioned orchestra

>>74261633
Some more transparency in Wagnerian orchestras would be nice. Maybe then they wouldn't need to bury them in pits.

>>74261516
Thanks, I'll keep that in mind. I don't suppose in the RCO cycle he attempts to follow Mengelberg's incredible use of rubato in the 4th?

>>74261551
I kind of like Volkov in Stravinsky, although his Agon doesn't really do it for me compared with Rosbaud and Gielen. Is there any recording of his you'd particularly recommend?

>>74261664
>I don't suppose in the RCO cycle he attempts to follow Mengelberg's incredible use of rubato in the 4th?
no, unfortunately not. there's only one recording that apes Mengelberg, and it's the Slowik one. in his interviews, Chailly obviously has a reverance for Mengelberg, but i think he knows that he can't really get away with that kind of performance style these days.

by the way, i cleaned up the Mengelberg Mahler 4th quite a bit in my spare time.

https://void.cat/2737373f27856c25dcfcf4bbb91ad11c7443a5e3

took awhile of manual spectral repair, but i was able to sweep up a lot of clicks, pops, thumps, and some of the bad side joins.

>>74261664
I have a lot of his bbcso broadcasts. I like his mahler a lot even if the general feeling of being under rehearsed and played by bbcso. 4th, 7th, 9th and the Ruckertlieder have been broadcasted.

>>74254870
His preludes are a good place to start
and then estampes maybe

>>74261703
This is cool. I downloaded it and will listen later. Thanks.

>>74261713
Any chance you have those uploaded somewhere?

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>>74256774
Stokowski's Symphonic Bach

Bump

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gFlyKTyFfrs

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>mfw somebody recommends writings by wagner and berlioz on /lit/
just stop. i know you lurk here.

>>74254786
lel

>>74261862
>>74257915
>>74256336
Thanks

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How would I go about teaching myself piano? I don't want to become a full concert pianist or anything, I just want to become proficient at reading music and playing different styles. I already play the violin and can read treble clef and bass clef, so are there any good books I should get to start learning scales/arpeggios and maybe some exercises or etudes?

>>74255946
The Clemencic Consort's recordings are pretty good.

>>74256774
Hey, I'm listening to Copland too!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KaER8xpLjuA

>>74265270
clementi piano school
http://imslp.org/wiki/Introduction_to_the_Art_of_Playing_the_Pianoforte%2C_Op.42_%28Clementi%2C_Muzio%29

What should I listen to from Kagel to get a grasp on him?

>>74265270
Get yourself a teacher. You will probably be incredibly inefficient in your practice if you don't have one. The progress you can make in only a couple of months is amazing if you know how and what to practice. Without a teacher you probably won't be able to do that and instead of taking two months you will probably take a year to get to the same point.
If you are going to do it alone these are a couple of mandatory things you have to do. You must know all your scales in all keys, hands together at a reasonable tempo. The same is true of your arpeggios, that is both triads and seventh chords. If you don't do that you won't even reach the level of shit.

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So I guess this is now the /mahlergeneral/

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HIP recordings of the vivaldi's gloria?

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>mfw Ivan Fischer is 2 symphonies away from completing the greatest Mahler cycle ever recorded
Is he truly the GOAT?

>>74267820
>>74267902
when will repertoirelets learn?

>>74266691
Improvisation Ajoutee

Also: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IuM8sYuZPp8

You only really get a sense of Kagel's position in the 20c avant garde by watching him satirise it.