Why is post-punk so much better than punk?

>>74207225
No as much artistic constraint as punk and it attracted actually talented musicians

>inb4 somebody thinks all post-punk sounds like joy division or wire

>>74207277
all post-punk sounds like joy division or wire

>>74207225
They could play their instruments

>>74207297
wow i cannot believe you actually think that

It attracted more homosexuals and girls, gave it more of a melting pot.

Post-punk went beyond the "fuck music talent and complexity" meme

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Because it took punk a few years to get over that initial burst of juvenile energy and develop into something more substantial.

What is the definition of post-punk?

>>74207225
Because punk was not good

Because while both are bland image-based movements, at least post-punk has some musicians who know how to play their instruments.

>>74207363
Wrong

Because at some point they said every punk band with any ambition, skill, and experimentation was "post-punk." Bands like the Pop Group and Television never considered themselves post-punk.

>>74207225
>Eraserhead
What a cool dude.

>>74207458
I don't think you know what post-punk is.

>>74207331
It couldn't have anything to do with >>74207305 and >>74207334, could it?

>>74207424
>Wrong
That just settles it then.

>>74207474
>I don't think you know what post-punk is.
Not him, but who cares? And it's not as if the Pop Group for example follows strict genre classifications.

Because it puts the post in posture.

>>74207346
More complex but still punk

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>>74207225
t. Nu Male

>>74207346
Pretty much punk, if it was darker, more atmospheric, more emotional, and better.

>>74207698
That's the joy division definition of post-punk tho.
Gang of four isn't darker than the ramones

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>>74207683
>implying nu-males listen to anything punk related
I'm pretty sure they stick to rap, and the tumblr ones stick to indie folk shit, unless you're talking about those antifa faggots who worship The Clash and Dead Kennedys.

Punk is for artsy college kids who hit the gym
Post-punk is for former emo kids who go anorexic so that their black clothes look better
Oi is for real working class men

>>74207474
I guarantee I know more about it than you.

>>74207753
The Fall gigs are full of working class people

>>74207745
>these are real people
Jesus Christ

Post-punk wasn't a real genre until the 21st century when art school kiddies discovered that John Peel ignorantly referred to some artsier punk bands as such. None of the famous post-punk groups considered themselves to be post-punk; they just saw themselves as punks or even garage rock artists who were a bit more experimental. Only when groups like Iceage and Interpol started showing up did post-punk retroactively become a thing that was being revived and not some aesthetic that some indie rock bands wanted.

>>74207997
Post-anything isn't really a genre, just a blanket term to make it easier to label stuff.

>>74208051
This. I don't understand why people try to treat it as a specific genre, there's just way too much diversity in sound.

>>74207997
yeah i'm sure you have a much stronger understanding of punk and post punk than fucking john peel lmao

>>74207997
It's difficult to categorize post-punk as a musical genre since it doesn't have a specific sound, but in retrospective, there definitely was a movement away from traditional punk rock as new elements were embraced and old elements faded away, I don't think it's wrong to give that movement a label.

>>74207997
Implying
>The March Violets
>The Chameleons
>The Danse Society
>Bauhaus
Saw themselves as punks.
No.

>>74207558
>it's not as if the Pop Group for example follows strict genre classifications
That's generally what I consider post-punk especially with newer stuff. Like how the pop group, have a nice life, iceage, etc. just fuse different aspects of genres while still sounding like a punk band.

>>74207225
What a disturbingly reddit thread. I'm embarrassed /mu/.

Post punk makes me feel nostalgic for a time that I didn't live through.

>>74208774
if post punk is reddit, then reddit has better taste than /mu/

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>>74207225

>>74208816
At this point, they probably do. This board is 90% top 40 waifu shit, mainstream rap, and "ironic" shitposting.

>>74208826
Saved. Best reaction image I saw in a while

>>74207297
>who is Pere Ubu
>who is Television
>who are the Talking Heads
>who are The Cure
>who are the Jesus and Mary Chain

etc etc etc

>>74208816
placing post punk above punk, and not liking both, is the easiest way to spot posers. leave

>>74207225
What makes this thread so inherently retarded is how widely varying both these genres are. If you are one of the people trying to make arguments in favor of one or the other you are either a) baiting or b) know nothing about what you're talking about

>>74208992
Punk is damn good, but it doesn't reach the same heights as post-punk. Anybody over the age of 20 can tell you this. I loved punk when I was a teenager, but it doesn't hold up the same way post-punk does.

>>74208948
Are you actually trying to gatekeep post-punk with something nobody ever said?

This is the purest autism I've seen in months

>>74209048
*he never said

>>74209037
and how does YOU being unable to appreciate it anymore make it worse?

>>74208948
posers of what? do you think post punk was more commercial or "fake" than punk?
breaking news: post punk was not even punk.

>>74209048
hey brainlet, my post was about the point of the thread itself

>>74209086
Then you probably shouldn't direct your post to another post and tell that person to leave.

You know, like a regular person.

>>74207724
Gang of Four are definitely darker than the ramones, they have a more abrasive sound and their lyrics are serious and political

>>74209108
leave

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>>74207225
>post-punk = low test betas who cry over the world's problems and their issues

>punk = high test betas who are angry and "rebel" against the world's problems and their issues

Post-punk ignores the point of punk music and then decides to make music that's totally different while also being pretentious as fuck. It's losers who are trying to make artsy music but have zero ability to make true art music.

>>74209110
Yeah, but Gang Of Four's music is nowhere near as energetic as The Ramones. It has a much lighter, thinner sound with rhythms in grooves rather than a full on assault.

>>74209246
I dunno to me it just sounds like guys who like making tunes

>>74207698
It's the punk ideals but with actual music, that's really it

It's why the early post-punk bands were all punk pioneers who wanted to do something that actually mattered, sounded good or challenged themselves

Yeah, just like punk it eventually became something people with no talent or dreams could do but the initial explosion had much loftier ideals and FAR more diversity than punk rock

>>74209341
Yeah, but they are boring ass tunes though. Sure punk music is far more straightforward, but that's because it doesn't have delusions of grandeur, and is arguably one of if the best genres at what it tries to do.

>>74209348
>It's the punk ideals but with actual music, that's really it
Not really since it's not musically like punk at all as not a single post-punk band matches the sheer intensity of a punk band.

>It's why the early post-punk bands were all punk pioneers who wanted to do something that actually mattered, sounded good or challenged themselves
Bullshit. Pere Ubu and Television were doing stuff like that from the start. Same with Talking Heads if they count, too. The only person this applies to is Lydon.
>had much loftier ideals and FAR more diversity than punk rock
Yet it couldn't match those ambitions at all musically. It's got a lot of variety on the surface, but there's a reason that scene itself only lasted for about 7-9 years meanwhile punk continued on.

because it took the aesthetic sensibilities of punk and added technical ability, originality, and experimentation

>>74209419
>Yeah, but they are boring ass tunes though.
Says who?

>>74209419
behave yourself, spellbound is the most exciting tune ever conceived
a lot of fall songs as well, this heat...

>>74209419
>punk continued on
No, it didn't. Punk evolved into hardcore, and emo, and goth, and pretty much everything EXCEPT for straight forward punk. Straight forward punk died some time around 1982.

>>74209419
>not musically like punk at all
Why do retards always say this?

>>74209419
I see, you're arguing post-punk as a specific sound and not post-punk as the movement, my bad, I misunderstood what discussion we were having, you're wrong about some things even in the discussion you are having but I'm not interested in that discussion so I'll drop it

>>74207997
iceage have stated on multiple occasions that they dont think of themselves as a punk or post-punk band. (source: iceage documentary)

post punk is shit music for little pretentious twink faggots

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>>74209652
reporting in

>>74209652
the irony here is that you sound like a fag

>>74209491
>>74209504
>tracks that go much longer than standard punk rock tracks yet don't have enough changes on top to make it interesting
>attempts at adding influences from other genres yet fail at being anywhere near as good as those genres (eg. lack of the kind of rhythmic variation dub music actually brought in the music of PiL and GOF)
>often attempts to be serious music that tries to explore and deconstruct the meaning of melody, harmony, timbre yet never develops ideas like that as far as actual introverted/introspective genres like western art music or jazz
>>74209525
Because it's not?
>>74209508
Yeah, and I am making an argument that the whole entire line is superior to the line that comes from post-punk (noise rock, alt rock, indie rock, etc.) Things like hardcore, powerviolence, metalcore, grindcore, etc. didn't forget the initial facets of the genre and evolved keeping those in mind.
>>74209527
I am arguing for both, looking at the musical qualities of post-punk bands and its definition as movement that influenced certain other forms of music that were as far from punk as possible.

>>74209772
the problem here is that I specifically mentioned bands that didn't do those things and you ignore them so...

>>74209808
Which ones? I didn't come into this topic until:

>Post-punk ignores the point of punk music and then decides to make music that's totally different...
That's my first post.

The problem with any discussion about post-punk is there are two groups of people, the ones who think post-punk means the bands post-punk revival was inspired by (a specific sound that can be from any time) and those that mean post-punk, the movement, which includes genres like new wave, goth, industrial, anarcho-punk, synthpop, noise rock, etc. (but from a specific period of time)

There's a HUGE difference between the two so if you want to start a discussion, you have to immediately indicate which one you are referring to

>>74209835
you replied to me lad. here I am: >>74209504

>>74207745
The fuck is going on with this kids fingers?
He looks like an alien.

>>74209857
Rhythmically simple arpeggio melodies that are based in basic ass pentatonic shapes on the guitar like all generic rock music. Lack of interesting vocal parts since Siouxsie sings within the same range and delivers all her vocals the same exact way. Majority of the track is based on the same three chords bar maybe the last bit in the final chorus I think. Lacks the intensity of punk rock.

It's literally exactly what I described.

GOAT post punk song here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElhAysq3O6c

>>74207225
Is pop punk considered post-punk?

>>74209989
Unfortunately for you, this exists

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71s-T8oUTQs

>>74210008
Some stuff that could be considered pop punk now may have been post-punk but generally no, the pop punk movement happened long after post-punk

>>74209925
>Rhythmically simple arpeggio melodies that are based in basic ass pentatonic shapes on the guitar like all generic rock music.
so? it's cool and ominous in ways that the traditional punk form didn't allow
>Lack of interesting vocal parts since Siouxsie sings within the same range and delivers all her vocals the same exact way
very melodramatic and works for the song quite nicely indeed
>Majority of the track is based on the same three chords bar maybe the last bit in the final chorus I think
that's incorrect but even if that were the case: so?
>Lacks the intensity of punk rock.
it obviously isn't as aggressive as some punk rock but its marriage of moody arpeggios and aggressive guitar strumming is delightful in its own right and you're a bitch not to see that

>>74209840
this.

>>74210043
>Some stuff that could be considered pop punk now may have been post-punk but generally no
Like Green Day? Or atleast their early albums?

>>74207458
The Pop Group is barely even punk either desu
Having loud angry guitars doesn't automatically make your music punk

>>74210085
No, that was way after post-punk, post punk ended in the mid-80's, like '83-'85

>>74209989
>>74210043
Wrong. Top 5 of post-punk:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VzIvIacMSU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMJJmdlZoPw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMrOMye0tR4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGn5JcG9-3s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8niKKl-BVE

>>74210136
>Colin Newman
Excellent taste but Life On Deck and & Jury are both better

>>74210048
>so? it's cool and ominous in ways that the traditional punk form didn't allow
But traditional punk doesn't try to be ominous. And there's nothing ominous about arpeggios that can be heard in a ton of other rock music, too. Fucking listen to a composer like Penderecki or Sciarrino for ominous.
>very melodramatic and works for the song quite nicely indeed
Maybe so because the rest of the track itself is so restrictive and boring. Music that's considered "gothic" doesn't need to be lacking in engagement, see Bach's Cantatas.
>that's incorrect but even if that were the case: so?
Bb chord on the first fret on a guitar don't play top note, C chord on the third fret on a guitar, and D chord on the fifth fret on a guitar. These all start on the A string. You get all but like three of the notes in the track, which are covered by the shapes.

This is very simple music. Music like The Banshees here doesn't have the intensity of punk rock, right which uses its simplicity as a blunt bludgeon on the listener? So that means it's trying to more stimulate the listener on a more cerebral level. I am fine with that. But this kind of music isn't very engaging for the listener at doing something like that. It uses cliches which are not used in any interesting way at all.

>>74210135
Pop punk started in like the early/mid 90s so what was inbetween?

>>74210202
The Descendants

>>74210136
Off the top of my head (because I haven't actually tried making such lists in years)

>Rema-Rema - Feedback Song
>New Order - Ceremony
>Einstürzende Neubauten - Kollaps
>Swell Maps - Blenheim Shots/A Raincoat's Room
>The Mekons - Corporal Chalkie or The Mob - I Wish

>>74210202
Well you see, there's a huge difference between British and American punk for one, not even the same genre

But basically for some people, punk never died so there was a version of it that existed well past its expiration date and that's what pop-punk came out of but it had none of the spirit of post-punk because the punk it was coming from was nothing like the original punk rock

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Reminder post punk was the first interesting genre rock music produced

>>74210185
>But traditional punk doesn't try to be ominous
yeah I know, post-punk does other things which is why many find it more interesting
>And there's nothing ominous about arpeggios that can be heard in a ton of other rock music, too
what does that have to do with anything? the tune is self-evidently ominous mate. that sequence of notes creates that atmosphere.
>Fucking listen to a composer like Penderecki or Sciarrino for ominous.
I have but I'm not sure what this comparison means. I don't listen to rock music for microtonal orchestral pieces.
>Maybe so because the rest of the track itself is so restrictive and boring
not true, it has a simple but effective dynamic changes that siouxsie facilitates with her voice
>Music that's considered "gothic" doesn't need to be lacking in engagement, see Bach's Cantatas.
"lacking in engagement"? see these are subjective things lad. who listens to goth rock music expecting fucking bach pieces? I just don't understand you at all

I can't be bothered to check the chords but you may be right

>This is very simple music
so?

things don't magically fall into a strict camp of "cerebral" and "agressive "body" music" mate. the song is a unique marriage of the two. granted there have been derivative acts since but that makes the track no less original

>>74210301
I see some similarities between early pop punk and "real" punk desu

>>74210348
There's similarities but overall it's completely different, for one thing, if punk rock was a reaction to progressive rock...then the punk rock that pop-punk came out of was a refusal to accept the existence of post-punk, it wasn't a reaction to anything, just a continuation of it, that's why all the political punk groups split off into other genres like Fugazi or Crass, it's hard to get out your aggression and ideals and just stick to the same formulaic music that isn't progressing at all

>>74210325
What about Jazz fusion?
Prog Rock?
(You) Rock?

>>74210422
>Jazz fusion?
i don't consider it rock

>Prog Rock?
dude symphonic and kilometric solos lmao

krautrock was cool tho

>>74210340
>yeah I know, post-punk does other things which is why many find it more interesting
But that's just shallow. Sure, post-punk tried out a bunch of things, but they all suck ass.
>what does that have to do with anything? the tune is self-evidently ominous mate. that sequence of notes creates that atmosphere.
Dude ffs it's the same notes you hear in 90% of rock music. Any aspect of "ominous" you're thinking of is what's in your own head not what's evident of the music itself.
>I have but I'm not sure what this comparison means. I don't listen to rock music for microtonal orchestral pieces.
>either of those
>microtonal
Dude, at least do a google search or something before trying to engage in topics you have no clue about. If you had actually listened to either of those, they explore traditionally "ominous" and "dark" sounding atmospheres while being far more melodically, rhythmically, harmonically, and timbrally interesting than anything The Banshees have ever done.
>not true, it has a simple but effective dynamic changes that siouxsie facilitates with her voice
Even Nickleback has a straightforward dynamic change like that, too. It's nothing special.
>"lacking in engagement"? see these are subjective things lad
Not when one looks at the qualities of the music and see how much there is to ween for the listener. There isn't much to ween off of The Banshees or any post-punk. It's too repetitive to be interesting for people except lazy listeners.

>things don't magically fall into a strict camp of "cerebral" and "agressive "body" music" mate.
Of course. Aggressive music still has metal, some metalcore/mathcore, or some of the more rhythmically complex hip hop that still goes hard. Cerebral music has works like Threnody or a lot of Wagner's stuff. But they are highly engaging, often using the other to supplement their main goal. Post-punk doesn't work like that, it's not that sophisticated to figure such things out.

>>74210530
what's your favorite music? name some bands you like, i'm curios.

>>74209066
Not him, but it's not even about that. Do yourself a favor and find out how the Sex Pistols were formed. I'd recommend Punk Britannia documentary. You'll understand why punk doesn't hold up. If you want to admit it, that's another story.

>>74209213
And what did the supposed rebelling punks achieve? You will find out, if you follow >>74210597.

>>74210561
György Ligeti
Karlheinz Stockhausen
Henry Threadgill
Ornette Coleman
Insect Warfare
Despise You
Morbid Angel
Blasphemy
Swans
Kahn

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>>74209110
>Their lyrics are serious and political

>>74210459
>dude symphonic and kilometric solos lmao

Is this shitty ironic meme your only way to cricitise a genre? You (like the most part of thi board) are pathetic.

>>74210530
>But that's just shallow. Sure, post-punk tried out a bunch of things, but they all suck ass.
only by your weird arbitrary standards and comparisons
>Dude ffs it's the same notes you hear in 90% of rock music.
in the sense that they're notes on the pentatonic scale yes. in that order, no
>Any aspect of "ominous" you're thinking of is what's in your own head not what's evident of the music itself.
no its clearly evident that that is the atmosphere that sequence of notes creates and it is quite clear that that was the intention.
>either of those
>microtonal
uhhh fairly certain they do use microtones??? and the point still stands - why are you comparing them?
>If you had actually listened to either of those, they explore traditionally "ominous" and "dark" sounding atmospheres while being far more melodically, rhythmically, harmonically, and timbrally interesting than anything The Banshees have ever done.
but their music has totally different intent and form from the banshees so why are you comparing them? its an exciting rock song with moody arpeggios
>Even Nickleback has a straightforward dynamic change like that, too. It's nothing special.
same with most rock music, except sonically its totally different
>Not when one looks at the qualities of the music and see how much there is to ween for the listener. There isn't much to ween off of The Banshees or any post-punk. It's too repetitive to be interesting for people except lazy listeners.
all music is lazy listening. the song I mentioned is a 3 minute tune with a cool melody. its a fantastic tune and that's all it needs to be

you're talking shit m8

>>74210652
>>74210597
Why's it always the Sex Pistols that get brought up about this? Like, shit, no matter what you or Lydon thinks, Sex Pistols had a far larger cultural and musical influence on music than every post-punk band put together.

>>74210459
>Jazz fusion?
>i don't consider it rock
Neither does anyone else who knows anything about the genre.
>Prog Rock?
>dude symphonic and kilometric solos lmao
>krautrock was cool tho
Just wait until you discover jazz and classical music buddy. Not only kilometric solos, but kilometric compositions too.

>>74210723
[citation needed]

The Stooges and TVU really did everything that post-punk bands needed anyway. The Ramones and the Sex Pistols were unneccessary

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>>74210779

>>74210723
>Why's it always the Sex Pistols that get brought up about this? Like, shit, no matter what you or Lydon thinks, Sex Pistols had a far larger cultural and musical influence on music than every post-punk band put together.
Because people deserve to know the truth about their idols. And how do John Lydon's actions not matter? He and Howard Devoto not only despised punk, they never returned to it. If that doesn't tell you something about the genre, you're simply in denial of reality.

The same reason post-anything is better than anything. It's amazing how the word "post" and a hyphen can turn shit into gold.

>>74210792
stupid frogposter

>>74210779
Musically unnecessary yes, but it was the whole cultural explosion that was important because it showed a much larger group of people that they could make the music they wanted AND that people would actually buy it, the Sex Pistols did nothing of value musically, but they helped pull everyone else into a cultural shift, rather than having it remain underground

>>74210722
>only by your weird arbitrary standards and comparisons
How the fuck are my standards more weird and arbitrary than everyone else's "post-punk is more technical they actually play stuff!" that this topic is riddled with? There's nothing wrong with wanting more depth in your music.
>in the sense that they're notes on the pentatonic scale yes. in that order, no
I never said they were played in scale order wtf are you talking about?
>no its clearly evident that that is the atmosphere that sequence of notes creates and it is quite clear that that was the intention.
This is again, complete fucking bullshit because they are far from the only band to use those exact same arpeggiations. If your premise was true then a fuck ton more rock music would sound that way.
>uhhh fairly certain they do use microtones??? and the point still stands - why are you comparing them?
Sonorism inspired techniques isn't microtonal you idiot. You would know if you actually listened to the stuff.
>and the point still stands - why are you comparing them?
Because as a melodic work that focuses on trying to get what are considered "dark" atmospheres by mainstream society, it stops being comparable to punk that did nothing like that. It starts comparing itself to other melodic works that also try to do the same thing. Which is where post-punk fails. Everyone itt tryna compare post-punk to punk when that comparison makes zero sense, the real comparison should be based on what each post-punk band tries to do (and fail at.)
>its an exciting rock song with moody arpeggios
There's very little excitement in that track though. It's got this sorta upbeat yet plodding pace rhythmically. Not to mention that something like that is also totally unfitting of music trying to be ominous. It's pop music.
>same with most rock music, except sonically its totally different
Yes, but the technique is done in the same tasteless way to try to bring variation for the sake of variation.

TBC in next post

>>74210825
>post-grunge

>>74210722
>all music is lazy listening. the song I mentioned is a 3 minute tune with a cool melody. its a fantastic tune and that's all it needs to be
There's nothing fantastic about it. And all music is lazy listening only if you're a lazy listener, which I think you are if you think what is essentially a mediocre melodic pop song is somehow the epitome of great music.

>>74210865
Oh yeah.

Why is folk punk so much better than all other punk?

>>74210913
WHEN I'M OUT WALKING
I STRUT MY STUFF
AND I'M SO STRUNG OUT

>>74210913
Probably because folk is inherently punk as fuck, much more than rock

Can you rec me some stuff like Swidden by Blackbird Raum? I really love that album but folk punk usually brings up results like The Pogues which isn't what I would call "folk punk".

>>74210779
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_Pistols#Legacy

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joy_Division#Legacy

Sex Pistols did a lot more, not to mention that everything even considered punk culture is based on them like for example fashion.

Also The Stooges/TVU were neither as energetic nor as outwardly rebellious as punk rock.

>>74210913
fag music

>>74209772
https://pastebin.com/RTKZsLeu
Post punk was recognized and analyzed by the academia. So, what now?

>>74210797
That's great. But none of that has to do at all with the wide influence the music/culture had, even if it was manufactured, even if it was hated by the members that partly helped propagate it. All that is side stuff that doesn't look directly at the stuff itself, but just the who/how.

>>74210843
>the Sex Pistols did nothing of value musically, but they helped pull everyone else into a cultural shift, rather than having it remain underground

fair enough, but I feel as though post-punk bands were more involved in the underground/avant-garde scene, and would be more likely to have heard the stooges and TVU anyway

but it definitely influenced 80s cock rock probably

>>74210974
>The Stooges
>not energetic

u wot

>>74211024
Yeah, but it's the commercial aspect, like a band like Swell Maps were musically influenced by something like Can but because of the cultural explosion of punk rock, they could make their post-punk music and then sell it

There's a difference between just making music and then knowing there's an audience out there you can reach, punk gave post-punk its audience but it was The Velvets and Can and Iannis Xenakis where they got their musical influence

>>74210980
>a bunch of books means academia
Hahahahahahah ffs one of them is on post-punk and politics when post-punk has by far the cringiest politics of any music since they pretend to act like they know so much (outside jokesters like GOF) yet they are completely unknowledgeable.

There are musicological written works on both punk and post-punk, but like all serious works in that realm concerning popular music, the analytics are strictly social/cultural since there's not much to analyze musically with popular music.

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>>74211058
>punk gave post-punk its audience but it was The Velvets and Can and Iannis Xenakis where they got their musical influence
this

>>74211058
>punk gave post-punk its audience

yeah that makes sense

>>74211034
Compared to most punk they are very slow.

>tfw years ago this board put me on the path to get Post-Punk 1978-1984
>bought it, read it and loved it
>years later and still nobody else has read it but still won't shut up about "post-punk"
Music for this feel?

>>74211108
>reading words on paper
Fuck outta here, nerd.

You'll notice that /fit/ (high test, actual men) likes punk (with a preference for hardcore and Oi!), while /fa/ (knock-kneed, thin wrissted, effeminate chinlets) is obsessed with post-punk. Post-punk is either whiny baby's first existentialism, "I'm in art school and just watched Eraserhead"-core abstract, or beige inoffensive leftism without any real spine. Musically, it's just TVU wannabes, but with the bass mixed higher, drum machines and synthesizers. It has no real value as a genre or as an artistic "epilogue" to punk which people like John Peel try to insist.

>>74211203
>You'll notice that /fit/ (high test, actual men) likes punk (with a preference for hardcore and Oi!), while /fa/ (knock-kneed, thin wrissted, effeminate chinlets) is obsessed with post-punk

this is your problem: you think that being effeminate is a bad thing.
/pol/ is your containment board.

>>74207305
this is actually wrong for a lot of cases
I think The Mekons and The Slits had no idea how to play their instruments

>>74210852
>How the fuck are my standards more weird and arbitrary than everyone else's "post-punk is more technical they actually play stuff!"
the only argument has been that it is "more technical" than punk music, which is often true
>I never said they were played in scale order wtf are you talking about?
you claimed that because it uses the same notes as some other rock songs, then it is virtually the same and therefore "not interesting" and somehow "not ominous". this is untrue
>This is again, complete fucking bullshit because they are far from the only band to use those exact same arpeggiations
yes, a lot of them derivative. it was unique at its time and many bands still fail to capture its greatness
>Sonorism inspired techniques isn't microtonal you idiot. You would know if you actually listened to the stuff.
I'm not the most knowledgeable but I'm fairly certain they did use microtones m8 so...
>It starts comparing itself to other melodic works that also try to do the same thing.
but why is the next best comparison penderecki of all things? better yet why not consider it on its own terms? the guitar and drums and lead vocals are a totally different texture which should be judged on their own merits
>the real comparison should be based on what each post-punk band tries to do (and fail at.)
I don't think when McGeoch sat down to write that riff he was thinking "yes I really want to capture that Penderecki vibe here..."
>There's very little excitement in that track though
nonsense. the way the drums are mixed, the layered six string strumming, its very creative and exhilarating
>It's got this sorta upbeat yet plodding pace rhythmically
um I think you're a bit tone deaf if you thought that was "plodding" or "upbeat"
>Not to mention that something like that is also totally unfitting of music trying to be ominous. It's pop music.
I mean it clearly does because the song works perfectly. And nothing necessitates that pop music shouldn't be ominous. cont

>>74211261
That's only a couple isolated cases though, and those are mostly bands that are more proto-twee or borderline punk. The Slits' whole gimmick was that they were like The Sex Pistols but girls.

>>74211143
I know books are old-fashioned, I think it's the only one of my hundreds of physical books I didn't give away but besides introducing me to great music, it's just a great way to explain to people on this board that there's more to post-punk than Joy Division

And also explains many of the questions this board asks forty times a day, including stupid assertions like this >>74211297 (there's a whole chapter about the reggae/dub influenced scene they were a part of with The Pop Group and others)

>>74210723
The funny thing is that sex pistols were a lot less manufactured than a lot of new artists. All mclaren did was vaguely overseeking their "style" after he formed them.
This sex pistols revisionism is just people beating to death the "they cant play lmao" meme.
>>74210779
You see history is not the "legacy" page on wikipedia. First of all even removing the actual music the stooges would have remained a completly invisible band if it wasn't for the cover of no fun by the pistols. And to say that the ramones were unimportant really demonstrates a lack of knowledge. Yeah the stooges did very hard fasto rock but it was nowhere near the tightness of ramones. The stooges would have never wrote a song like havana affair

>>74211108
>>74211334
are you by any chance talking about "rip it up and start again"?

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Because punk is shit and the true good goth genre will always be industrial.

>>74211334
But The Pop Group is just a funky dance group that got dubbed as punk by mistake, Mark Stewart said.

>>74211066
https://pastebin.com/CCxfWurF
Again, this means nothing to you, because you're the "visceral" guy. Riddle me this, how are you alone an authority of which genres of music can be and are recognized by the academia as art music? I suppose nothing besides classical music and jazz is worth listening to and considering art music in your view.

>>74210852
A lot of great, truly popular pop music isn't strictly "happy". It seems to me that you're arguing against tonal depth which is odd...
>Yes, but the technique is done in the same tasteless way to try to bring variation for the sake of variation.
nothing in that song screams "gratuitous variation". it has moody druid arpeggios then an aggressive acoustic riff which match the themes of the lyrics.
>There's nothing fantastic about it.
its a great post-punk song that seizes the simplicity and excitement of punk music but adds depth to it with some beautiful arpeggios and more introspective lyrics. I never called it "the epitome of great music", calm down.

>>74211334
It doesn't seem to me like it should take much to realize it's more than Joy Division. It's really like an umbrella that covers pretty much all the underground rock scene of the late-70s to early-80s.

>>74211437
>But The Pop Group is just a funky dance group that got dubbed as punk by mistake
>Funky dance group
Damn, all those people must've been going to the wrong clubs in the 80's.

>>74211388
Not him but I'm reading that now. A little dry but a very good source for finding good music.

>>74211272
*twelve string, whoops

>>74211463
Their loss. They missed out on such dance classics as We Are All Prostitutes and For How Much Longer Do We Tolerate Mass Murder.

>>74211450
And yet it comes up all the time, I don't understand it either.

>>74211464
yeah, it's sometimes hard to get through the author's descriptions of sounds. I remember he compared Mark E Stewart's vocals to liquid glass or something lol

>>74211388
Yeah, it has lots of interesting tidbits about the people in the bands themselves and how people felt about it at the time. Fuck, it even made shit I thought I would never care about like Frankie Goes to Hollywood, interesting. But it's really just a great resource for the numerous bands and scenes it details.

>>74211272
>the only argument has been that it is "more technical" than punk music, which is often true
Not just that, but that its ability to use that to create more intellectually stimulating music makes it better, but it doesn't go far enough with the idea.
>you claimed that because it uses the same notes as some other rock songs, then it is virtually the same and therefore "not interesting" and somehow "not ominous". this is untrue
This is totally true though. Keep in mind that they are ARPEGGIOS which do follow that particular order, even if not scalar. Is The Banshees the only music you have ever listened to if you think they are the only ones that arpeggiate those chords?
>yes, a lot of them derivative. it was unique at its time and many bands still fail to capture its greatness
All those bands suck so idk why they are even trying.
>I'm not the most knowledgeable but I'm fairly certain they did use microtones m8 so...
Penderecki used some quartertones, but his music isn't strictly microtonal orchestras, and to call it that shows how little you know about music at all.
>but why is the next best comparison penderecki of all things? better yet why not consider it on its own terms? the guitar and drums and lead vocals are a totally different texture which should be judged on their own merits
That's why I mentioned each section, talking about the lack of inventive ideas in the guitar, the lack of range in Siouxsie's voice thus the lack of emotional/technical depth, etc. Those other guys I mentioned because if you analyze their stuff there's a lot to enjoy and be engaged with.
>I don't think when McGeoch sat down to write that riff he was thinking "yes I really want to capture that Penderecki vibe here..."
Again, you are either blatantly acting ignorant or that fucking stupid. I never said they were trying to copy each other. I said that they were at the end of the day melodic/harmonic based works that tried to go for darker atmospheres.

1977=punk music started 1978=punk music died 1979=post-punk music started 1980=post-punk music died 1981=R.I.P. punk goodbye...

>>74211545
Smith not Stewart I mean

>>74211580
lol idiot

>>74211545
For me the first readthrough was absorbing the information and then nothing the bands he mentioned I hadn't heard and making an effort to listen to all of them

Someday I'd like to read it again (it's been a few years), at which point I would like to put on the music he talks about as I read those sections to see how much of those bits actually hold up

>>74211272
>nonsense. the way the drums are mixed, the layered six string strumming, its very creative and exhilarating
Drums mixes like that have existed forever though, so has strumming like that. There's nothing exhilarating about plodding music like this.
>um I think you're a bit tone deaf if you thought that was "plodding" or "upbeat"
>fast paced strumming
>accentuation then unaccentuation of beats
>not upbeat
Literally the definition, dude.
>I mean it clearly does because the song works perfectly. And nothing necessitates that pop music shouldn't be ominous. cont
How does it work perfectly? The rhythms are neither interesting enough to be analyzed nor are they fitting to the overall theme.

>>74211580
Wrong

1976 = punk rock movement took off (started earlier)
1977 = punk rock died
1977 = post-punk movement took off (started earlier)
1979 = post-punk turned into a billion different smaller movements
1981 and beyond = most of the movements got turned into just other forms of hipster pop, with little concern for their origins, some forms more sincere than others

ITT: a bunch of idiots think they know punk

>>74211441
>A lot of great, truly popular pop music isn't strictly "happy". It seems to me that you're arguing against tonal depth which is odd...
I never said it's not. A lot of my favorite stuff I just listed a few posts above that is popular music is dark in nature. Wtf is wrong with you?
>nothing in that song screams "gratuitous variation".
Literally its change from verse to chorus is just for sake of spicing up the composition, and it's the most basic trick in the book to do so. Nothing special at all.
>excitement of punk music
I think I have said it the third or fourth time that this track isn't exciting at all. It lacks energy, and some clean guitar strumming and upbeat rhythms doesn't automatically make it so. There's nothing beautiful about a cliche used in blues/hard rock often.

>>74211609
I've been listening as I read, which is taking a little longer because once I get into a band I want to explore them before moving on. I did the same for Please Kill Me with the earlier punk stuff, it's a lot of fun that way.

>>74211203
back to >>>>>>>>>>/pol/ you stupid fuck

>>74211575
>Not just that, but that its ability to use that to create more intellectually stimulating music makes it better, but it doesn't go far enough with the idea.
no one has claimed this. also music isn't intellectual.
>this is totally true though. Keep in mind that they are ARPEGGIOS which do follow that particular order, even if not scalar. Is The Banshees the only music you have ever listened to if you think they are the only ones that arpeggiate those chords?
no there have been loads as I have already agreed, but none in such a way as in that song and I'm sure you know this.
>Penderecki used some quartertones, but his music isn't strictly microtonal orchestras, and to call it that shows how little you know about music at all.
okay I don't care
>That's why I mentioned each section, talking about the lack of inventive ideas in the guitar
its a very evocative guitar line that few measure up to, and most agree with me
>the lack of range in Siouxsie's voice thus the lack of emotional/technical depth
It captures the emotion of the song really well, solidified by the aforementioned wonderful guitar parts and cracking drumming
>I said that they were at the end of the day melodic/harmonic based works that tried to go for darker atmospheres.
yes but with totally different instruments and forms and as a result totally different textures and intentions. its a silly comparison

>>74211768
I think I found that difficult because he talks a lot about specific songs and I wanted to absorb an album of each artist as my introduction to them but in retrospect, I think the song approach would have been better for a lot of them (since I already knew many of the basics), I really do need to go through it again, I mean, years after the fact I'm only just now falling in love with early Mekons (I always listened to their later stuff) and I remembered he talked about that stuff a lot

>>74211815
>no one has claimed this. also music isn't intellectual.
>Post-punk went beyond the "fuck music talent and complexity" meme
>Because it took punk a few years to get over that initial burst of juvenile energy and develop into something more substantial.
>ambition, skill, and experimentation was "post-punk.
Dude, it's in this fucking topic. Why would you lie?
>no there have been loads as I have already agreed, but none in such a way as in that song and I'm sure you know this.
Except they don't make it rhythmically different. It's the same old "play every note same rhythm within a phrase except the last two" generic rock crap.
>its a very evocative guitar line that few measure up to, and most agree with me
There's nothing evocative about it. As I keep saying it, you have probably heard the same or similar arpeggiations in pop before, and there's zero logic as to why it's interesting here that you have presented. Also "most agree with me" is as illogical as it gets (ad populum fallacy)
>It captures the emotion of the song really well, solidified by the aforementioned wonderful guitar parts and cracking drumming
Yes, straightforward singing that stays within the same octave range without a single willingness to sing out of key really captures the emotion. That's the most uncreative kind of stuff in music.
>yes but with totally different instruments and forms and as a result totally different textures and intentions. its a silly comparison
But that doesn't comparisons can't be made as to how much thought was put into the music, and what ends up being the better thing to listen to. This is especially true since you were more willing to make comparisons with punk rock to it, which philosophically it has even less in common with. In which case The Banshees like all post-punk fails because it's just trying to make generic catchy pop music with a coat of muh darkness on top.

>>74211629
>>74211701
the only issue I'm seeing here is that you're ether denying the obvious emotional qualities of a simple piece of music or you're unable to see them, which indicates autism. which would explain your strange impotent crusade against a genre of pop music through comparison to modern classical.

the song is a creative marriage of melodramatic vocals, clean layered acoustic guitar aggression with murky cerebral guitar arpeggios with a big relentless drum beat. although you can deny it all you want, it captures the sheer excitement of punk with more moody and introverted elements which is often what made post-punk great.

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>>74211203
Overcompensate some more, why don't you.
There's quite a few post-punk bands out there who've made music far more intimidating and violent than anything any hardcore(much less Oi; dude, Oi! is fucking pub-rock in disguise) band came up with in the 80s.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HR5ZnYl9Fmg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7HblHZ1E34
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KA7dUopnD0k
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GqWwB1M3J7k
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOh4h5b1CTw


>>74211248
>you think that being effeminate is a bad thing.

It is.

>>74212032
>Disciplina kičme
I'm impressed to say the least. Their bass player is a genius.

no wave > post-punk

>>74212081
>No wave
Depends which bands. Some bands literally refused to learn to attain any level of competence at their instruments.

>>74212032
>Scratch Acid
My nigga, greatest EP of all time

I had a long period of listening to that, the Junkyard album, Killing Joke and early Einsturzende Neubauten all the time

>>74211991
>you're ether denying the obvious emotional qualities of a simple piece of music
This is a subjective metric based on an individual's experience. A person that really likes Drake will emotionally resonate with that far more than anything you or I listen to.
>which indicates autism
Nope, the total opposite. If you are unable to see others personal preference for emotional enjoyment in music, you lack empathy and go straight into sociopath tier.

I am not gonna go over the rest of your post because I have gone over all of it in the post chain with the other anon, too. FFS

>although you can deny it all you want, it captures the sheer excitement of punk
But it's not anywhere near as aggressive/energetic as punk music. It doesn't capture it at all.

>>74212098
And they still managed to be more interesting than most power chord slamming punks

>>74212081
No Wave IS post-punk you fucking retard

>>74212136
Of course.

>>74212032
>It is.

imagine being this insecure in your masculinity? kek

>>74212032
Is this a fucking joke? That stuff is very light compared to hardcore. I swear you post-punkers think that just cuz there's an abstraction of guy trying to act edgy as all fuck, that means it's le darknessss!!1 Not a single one of your links, nor that Killing Joke album comes close to the hard hitting aspect of hardcore.

>DUDE what if we didn't use major or minor chords and just played like two strings
>DUDE what if we just yelled into the mic the whole time
>DUDE what if we didn't know our instruments
>DUDE what if we wore ripped jeans and leather jackets

yeah punk was really amazing

>>74210085
Pop punk started with the Ramones, Buzzcocks, and Undertones in the late 70's (among similarly sounding power pop). New Wave such as early Talking Heads/Cure/XTC fit the same mold but were more complex instrumentally. Same with early Indie Pop like Television Personalities. Finally, many traditional post-punk bands had a standout catchy (and usually mid to high tempo) single such as https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXkZI7WZWOo

>>74212165
Not everyone who likes the music he posted is angry about femininity, I love that stuff and I had my penis removed.

This thread made me throw up a little in my mouth.

>>74212298
kill yourself

>>74211699
>>74212302
awesome now contribute and say what's wrong with the thread or fuck off. you're worse than people who don't know shit about what we're talking about

>>74212180
The difference is men shouting to prove they're men (hardcore) and men screaming like a rat is eating their body from the inside (Scratch Acid or Neubauten), it's stupid to get into an argument about which is more hard-hitting, they are aimed at different audiences

>>74210098
The Pop Group very much considered themselves part of the punk movement.

>>74212344
I'm sorry you have a small penis, if I could have, I'd have gladly donated you mine

>>74212062
They're fantastic, yeah.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGiP3ZmELj0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BIoPsbjaMLw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTG-5WnW4Q8

Yugoslavia's punk/post-punk(and I'm including bands like Laibach under that classification as well) scene was surprisingly vital in general.

>>74212115
The pinnacle of US post-punk for me. I still play The Greatest Gift all the time

>>74212165
I have a strong distaste for effeteness. It is what it is.

>>74212180
80s hardcore's brutality lacks nuance and depth, which is what gives it less impact than something like The Birthday Party or Big Black.

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>>74212362
>men shouting to prove they're men (hardcore)

>>74212362
>men screaming like a rat is eating their body from the inside (Scratch Acid or Neubauten)
I've just listened to Kollaps. What a coincidence! The only artists delivering this ammount of sheer impact and pure anger are Scott Walker and the Pop Group.

>>74212362
Nah, the earlier is objectively more hard hitting in a physical sense due to its requirement to maintain a sorta percussive delivery to the vocals. Sure the other one's more disturbing or whatever since it goes all over the place, but it's not as physically hard hitting as the earlier. Hardcore wouldn't wanna do the later because it would water the music down in terms of its ability to be hard hitting. Like I don't see why you people don't get this about punk music in general. It's not that these people couldn't have added all sorts of extra shit, it's that they didn't want to, knowing it wouldn't give the best results for the kind of thing they were going for.

>>74212429
jock detected

>>74212427
>80s hardcore's brutality lacks nuance and depth, which is what gives it less impact than something like The Birthday Party or Big Black.
But you aren't listening to it for nuance and depth. You're listening to it for the physicality of its brutality. The later is nowhere near that, at all whatsoever. This comparison is fucking retarded to begin with as both go for very different things. The punk bands are far more physical, but the post-punk ones are far more atmospheric/introspective.

>>74212427
>Laibach
I keep getting impressed. My parents lived in nwo ex-Yugoslavia for a good ammount of their lives and bands like Disciplina kičme are very highly regarded. New wave scene was flourishing too, as well as progressive rock to a degree.

>>74212427
>effeteness
the fact that you associate a lack of overt masculinity with effeteness says a lot about you.

do you really think a band like television or wire are more feminine than a band like the ramones just because they play different music?

>>74212434
Great choice, highly underrated album! (and the song Kollaps is one of my favorites of all time, listened to it hundreds of times)

I've always been upset I couldn't find enough vocalists like that (who were still making great music and could sing)

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I made a post-punk-industrial record that an electro industrial label run by the guys from Haujobb put out if anybody is interested:

https://basicunitproductions.bandcamp.com/album/avida-dollars

>>74212470
>You're listening to it for the physicality of its brutality.

No, I'm listening to it because I want to hear and feel something interesting and resonant. I just find most 80s hardcore to be neither of those things(I love some bands though, like the Misfits or Die Kreuzen or Siege or Discharge).
You can have both atmosphere and physicality in music, as proven by a shitload of post-punk, a shitload of black metal, a shitload of grindcore, a shitload of industrial/noise etc. Hardcore is ultimately just too plain and too caught up in its own subcultural politics.

>>74212485
I'm not surprised that they're revered at home, considering that records like Zeleni Zub Na Planeti Dosade and Svida Mi Se Da Ti Ne Bude Prijatno are easily on par with the best stuff that was being done in the US and the UK at the time.

>>74212498
I said nothing about Wire or Television. Wire are the most important rock band of the last 50 years in my books, both for their own output and for all the projects their members were involved in outside of the band itself.

>>74212869
But none of that music has the straightforward physicality of hardcore? Like wtf are you on about? Post-punk is too busy tryna to le demented! Black metal isn't even as physical as death metal, forget hardcore. Grindcore definitely does it better, but that's because it is a subgenre of hardcore (it's my music of choice along with powerviolence if I wanna listen to something in the vein of hardcore). Even the screams of the industrial/noise guys were more texturey than the physical percussive of the hardcore guys.

>>74212869
Don't forget that you're trying to argue with the "visceral" guy most likely.
https://rbt.asia/mu/search/text/visceral/

>>74211390
this

>>74211390
>All post punk is goth

>>74214329
it is

>>74211390
Industrial is pure nihilism.

>>74211390
>industrial
>goth
Nigga what? Oh god I hope you aren't one of those delusional idiots who thinks post-punk and industrial scenes were connected, too.

>>74209077
>post punk was not even punk
this is so fucking stupid this can't be even bait
you just cannot make this shit up

>>74215511
>Oh god I hope you aren't one of those delusional idiots who thinks post-punk and industrial scenes were connected, too.
I 100% am and I do

>>74215432
>pure
>nihilism

kek

>>74210974
>The Stooges not energetic
lol your entire thought process and opinion formulating is a bit off there, bud

>>74217580
Well, then you would be 100% wrong.

>>74217906
They aren't though. The Stooges are far slower than any punk music.

>>74217939
Ever heard TV Eye? And besides, just because the tempo is fast doesn't imply it is deemed "more punk." Reminder that first wave punk bands also had slow songs as well, such as I Wanna be your Boyfriend by the Ramones

>>74218175
Yes I have. It's nowhere near as fast as punky stuff. Besides, the point here being that the other anon hours ago was saying something like The Stooges already did it when they hadn't at all. The Stooges had a sound closer to hard rock, and there's nothing wrong with that.

>>74207225
>Eraserhead shirt
I want to punch that faggot in the face