Technicality Vs. Creativity

>>73062167
So, besides this, what do you think /mu/? Why do you think technical artists are so often boring rather than impressive? Who meets technicality with artistry for you? Is a vast knowledge of music theory important for an artist to learn?

>>73062167
tits

>>73062167
people like that song though anon
>600,000 views

>>73062221
Look at the comments

It's all super pretentious bullshit

>>73062167
this sounds so fucking bad it's astounding.

i hate that kid, he always makes songs sound worse.

and to answer your question, it's because they have no taste. they have the technical ability but they don't have the aesthetic sensibilities to back it up. they have no clue what actually sounds good. the music isn't coming from an emotion, it's coming from some weird mathematical standpoint

Didn't read all that shit. Openness and conscientousness is (for the purposes of this analogy) a continuum. Openness is creative and conscientousness (probably spelling that wrong) is disciplined. Discipline leads to technical prowess creativity leads to innovation.

>>73062356
Right? He think that an 80 part harmony with dissonant chords interspersed in there makes it good. The original beats this by a mile. At least Michael knew when to stop.

>To answer, it's because they have no taste.

Makes a lot of sense. Good answer anon.

>they have no clue what actually sounds good. the music isn't coming from an emotion, it's coming from some weird mathematical standpoint

So true

memes aside, who the FUCK is pic related

hnnnnngggg....

>>73062680
Idk I couldn't find her desu

>>73062167
>It sounds bad to me so it's creatively void

holy fuck you are such a dumb fucking nigger

>>73062945
I can listen to stuff that sounds discordant and still get artistic value from it. This video was just wankery.

>>73062901
Louise Glover

i dont know how anyone can listen to more than 30 seconds of that cheesy song holy shit

people who write crap like this are more interested in how much wanky theory shit they can shove in a song. they completely understand how to write music that works on a technical and theoretical level but have absolutely no taste or understanding in what makes a song good or not

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Because our brains a wired for simple patterns. Muscially, too.

Now that doesnt mean one cant cry to Schönberg's Transfigured Night, but a simple 4 chord melody will do the same much easier.

Fuck jazz, theres a reason its called "Elevator music". You dont listen to that shit for an emotional response, but for intellectual wankery. I take every punk band ever over the most sophisticated jazz arrangement.

Next thing is passion and attitude. The reason i can forgive BB King for being the worst blues player ever, but atleast he felt every goddamn note.

>>73062167
Holy shit what a douchebag. I want to punch that kid in the face.

>>73062167
she was probably a lot hotter when she didn't have fake tits, even if they were small.

>>73062167
It is creative. And it's extremely musically interesting. When people are musically talented, they normally go deep into that type of music. They get bored of how simple and repetitive music can get though. His stuff is harmonically, melodically, and rhythmically complex and it sounds good. If you don't listen to that stuff often it can just sound noise though. What you think of as an "exercise in music theory" is how he makes the music he likes.
>>73062356
>>73062438
>>73062962
These people just have really simplistic musical ears.

>>73063128
>They get bored of how simple and repetitive music can get though. His stuff is harmonically, melodically, and rhythmically complex and it sounds good.

it sounds like absolute trash, and this is coming from someone who plays and enjoys jazz. this type of shit where you take a pop song and just alter every chord always sounds like trash. the instruments sound horrible. it's like some robot opera (in a bad way)

>that synth sound at 3:25

holy shit that is hilarious

how can you be good enough to play like that and not think 'hmmm, that sounds like absolute shit'

>>73063194
That's just you dude. It can be musically exhausting. But the people the just dismiss stuff like this
>>73063058
>>73063072
are close minded and reject stuff that they don't understand as wankery. but when others dismiss their simplistic/repetitive folk or punk music they whine that those people are being dismissive or close minded (and they would be right).

>>73063274
you don't get it though. I LIKE Jazz music. I like discordant, ugly music as well. But this is just ugly in the worst way.

>>73063128
>extremely musically interesting

doesn't=/=good.

It's not musically exhausting. It's just wank. The same way a shredder can throw a million notes a second at you and not move you in any way.

>>73063274
there's good wank and bad wank, this is horrible tasteless wank

>>73062167
He's not a technical master by any means, he's very good but far from a master.

That said, the song is ok but the production is not very good. The arrangement is very busy and the mix does a poor job of moving the spotlight so everything is on your face all the time. Which ends up just being tiring.

In the end, technical skills and theoretical concepts are just tools that you use to make the music you want. Nobody is limited by the extra knowledge they have, they are limited by literally not being able to play what they want.

>>73063396
It doesn't move you, but that's just you. i don't feel like crying or whatever. But it's really great to listen to. This stuff is a lot more complex than most jazz dude. It's also not really discordant. That's not the point.
>>73063420
It's not tasteless just because you don't get the point. It's repurposing a familiar tune so there's the cultural connection. His Flinstone's video is his most popular and it's his most accessible. Try that if you want to give it a shot

He isn't self aware in the slightest. This kid was raised around learning instruments and music. He has never looked at it in any way past face value. He can't understand why people make music, he just knows how to play the instruments. It's never been anything more than a math class for him. He does it for validation from parents, friends, peers, shitty youtube comments. There is absolutely no passion in the music. This leads to him making shitty music video covers of shitty songs with a horribly failed attempt at being creative because he doesn't understand what creative even is.

>>73063555
Nice trips Jacob, but you're not fooling anyone.

>>73063555
if you think this horseshit is tasteful then you are even more tasteless than the kid who made it

>>73063475
>The arrangement is very busy and the mix does a poor job of moving the spotlight so everything is on your face all the time

It's this but not just this

Obviously there are fantastic producers that can do Wall of Sound type stuff and it will sound fantastic. But when you do it right it's just like you're being enveloped in this great wash of sound. this kid literally just sounds like every single instrument is being shoved at me with no purpose at all

plus the jazz harmony sounds like trash

>>73062167
>those tit veins
Disgusting

>>73063555
This shit is just the equivalent of hyper-realistic graphic drawings. Technically good, but not remotely interesting to look at.

>>73063624
*graphite

It's music performance as a competitive sport, accessible only to those who are also competitors.

Instead of communicating emotion without the need of language, this is nothing but language, just lots of long words joined together - it's the equivalent of someone pulling all ten-syllable-and-above words out of a dictionary and reading them in no particular order, then calling it poetry.

>>73063620
That's what makes it better t b h

>>73063559
Yeah this too. Totally got the "Parents made me git gud" vibe from him. Like you can tell he was forced to become this. And the music reflects it. Totally lifeless. He was obviously privileged too so that's another strike against him.

>>73063596
you can't fanthom how people can like music you don't? you just assume they have no taste?
>>73063559
if you've ever heard this sperg talk you'd know he loves music more than most rational people.

>>73063663
LYRICAL MIRACLE SPIRITUAL INDIVIDUAL RHYME CRIMINAL

>>73063624
I don't even agree with your analogy, but you don't think a hyper realistic drawing can look beautiful?

>>73063694
>if you've ever heard this sperg talk you'd know he loves music more than most rational people.

he talks like an annoying pretentious fuck that you'd find at a music school

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DnBr070vcNE

this is the most annoying video i've ever seen, i'm not even joking

>>73063694
you're an asian, aren't you?

>>73063737
It's not pretentious you brainlet. He could not be simplifying these concepts anymore.
>>73063738
American Spic

People who are creative/experimental musicians that come up with memorable or culturally important work do so because of the limitations on their technical abilities.

And also people assume that those that don't formally know theory are less intelligent or less capable of writing good music, which is objectively false. An intelligent and prodigal personality will write good music regardless of their level of education, their IQ and creative ability will easily outweigh any level of formal musical education they may have.

tl;dr music education is no substitute for talent.

it's literally just this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXfQsHT5c30

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>>73063760
>It's not pretentious you brainlet
>Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-Meta Lydian

>>73063762
You don't need any formal training to make music like this. If you understand the circle of fifths and how notes are divided, you can write stuff like this.

This tune might change your mind about Jacob Collier:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqY3FaZmh-Y
I think with covers he overdoes it for fun, to make it interesting. Which means that yes, it can sound like an exercise.

>>73063791
>taking a joke serious
he's just describing how you can take the concepts of the Lydian scale and expand it to increase brightness. the title of it is just his tumblr-tier humor

>>73063818
Don't lecture me, I have known this for years. I write all sorts of stuff based purely on ear. I understand in some technical sense what chords or key I may use, but outside of that I am largely ignorant.

Music theory will only take you so far, and I like to write stuff that goes well beyond the realm of theory just to throw listeners a curve ball. Any sound is up for grabs and dumb musicians limit themselves in whatever they have "learned."

>>73063737
this is what happens when you read too many theory books and just regurgitate what's written in them

the kid doesn't have an original thought or idea in his head

>>73063853
doesn't seem like he's joking at all

>>73062167
lol how'd I know he'd be asian before I even clicked the link

>>73063885
>and I like to write stuff that goes well beyond the realm of theory just to throw listeners a curve ball.
Wow dude. Congrats on inventing non functional harmony. That's never been done before. Everything in your music is well within this "theory" boogeyman you fear.
>>73063892
I think he might actually be autistic. But the title of it is a joke. He's just saying it's an extension of the Lydian scale. The point is to extend brightness past the already thought of limits.

>>73063770
This is a great video. Complex harmony is so good.

>>73063973
>Wow dude. Congrats on inventing non functional harmony. That's never been done before. Everything in your music is well within this "theory" boogeyman you fear.
Stop trying to poison me with sarcasm. If it were possible I'd be dead ten years ago.

>>73064005
Then stop acting like your "throwing people a curve ball" or "going beyond the realms of theory", because you're not. Non diatonic chords and scales aren't beyond theory.

>>73063843
This a great track. I can't believe some hacks here still say he's no pasion for music or creativity.

>>73063770
What is hilarious about this is that it still ends up sounding like garbage no matter which chords are substituted.

Jesus fucking Christ.

>>73063770
Don't bring Adam Neely into this, he knows what he's doing, he does it right, and he ENJOYS doing it, not the attention. He's actually p objective about it. Specially when he mentions how you must use your ears, acknowledging it's something people are afraid of doing.

>>73064051
>Non diatonic chords and scales aren't beyond theory.
In many instances I don't even use "chords" just sounds and tone clusters.

>>73063770
a V7 in a minor key is harmonic minor

fucking mong

>>73063770
>use your ears
It's Ed Sheeran, I don't need to use my ears in order to realize that everything is trash about it, throw it out and start over.

>>73063770
The only thing this video is teaching me is that overwriting a piece of music makes it sounds much worse than it did previously.

It's not that there haven't been thousands of creative, interesting, relevant technically-skilled musicians.

It's just that at this point, at least with the older instruments, the more creative players have moved on to using them / playing in more unconventional ways because jazz, rock, disco, funk, etc etc had covered so much ground technicality-wise. Awesome, inspired things were being done with highly technical playing.

But at this point playing guitar requires more 'wrong' approaches to get into different sound spaces. Don't necessarily underestimate that as technically unproficient though, there is a very particular and skilled technique such people develop, it's just not what's taught in school.

Also keep in mind that people using electronic production can be highly technically skilled and creative in that too.

But these types of guys who learn really technical guitar in some 'proper' way, they're usually uninspired guitar geeks who just want to learn old songs, or jazz band dorks, or whatever. If they were actually inspired they wouldn't just be learning to play old music the 'right' way.

But those guys aside the 'technicality is usually divorced from creativity' is something of a punk era meme. There's a lot of skill and technique to music, art, whatever, it's just that you're supposed to find your own way. The old jazz and rock guys were actually coming up with fresh approaches. These dorks forget this.

>>73064420
that video is like a retards way of reharmonizing a song. he's just taking every concept in how to reharmonize a song and shoving it in there

it's kind of like the equivalent of making a pizza and taking everything in your fridge, pantry, and spice rack and just throwing it all on top of the dough

>>73064288
>no one has ever made microtonal music before
>>73064291
It could be a secondary dominant
>>73064217
Adam has made stuff that sounds like Jacob before. And he has said he enjoyed him the past. Just cause you don't like/understand him doesn't mean he lacks passion

>>73064485
yep. it's just an intro on how to do it.

>>73064511
>It could be a secondary dominant

it's not

>>73064511
>no one has ever made microtonal music before
Not even microtonal, just sampled sounds and that's been done throughout the entirety of industrial music and hip hop. What matters is the sense of where those sounds should go and how they should work together.

>>73064485
The best part of it is the part with the words that every Jazz musician loathes to hear. "Use your ears." I've used jazz chords quite a bit, but I absolutely hate most jazz because a lot of it lacks the compositional sense of classical music.

>>73064585
Ok man. Congrats on the musique concrete and sound collage. I was just harping on you for the "beyond theory" and "curve ball" stuff which I found ridiculous.

>>73062167
Usually because they're good at playing music not good at writing music. The two things are very different skills. It takes a lot of time become a virtuoso on your instrument so if you do often times you're not particularly good at writing music and when you do it tends to play to your strengths aka be a showcase for your virtuosic skills.

If you look at jazz musicians this is pretty obvious. All jazz musicians who rise to the higher levels are incredible players. However most of them can't write tunes at all. The amount of good jazz musicians who can also write good tunes is very small.

To your point about Bach. Bach besides being one of the greatest geniuses ever also worked for a several churches full time. His music had to appeal to the average church goer or he'd be fired.

Also many times musicians who play styles of music that aren't technically demanding are fantastic players and can play things far more complicated than the stuff in their music. However, they don't write technical difficult parts into their music, because it doesn't serve the music style they're going for.

>>73064585
>jazz chords

I bet you also call all spices except salt "ethnic seasoning". But you don't cook with "traditional theory" and you don't follow recipes and just sample elements of flavor that's been done throughout the entierity of some bullshit millenial gastro pub.

>>73064809
>I bet you also call all spices except salt "ethnic seasoning". But you don't cook with "traditional theory" and you don't follow recipes and just sample elements of flavor that's been done throughout the entierity of some bullshit millenial gastro pub.

There is so much projecting in this statement that I don't even know where to start...

tldr; don't listen to music you don't like faggot

also who's the bitch?

>>73064779
It's more like people who can't play or are at least not familiar enough with technical music dismiss it as wankery

>>73062167
completely predictable "rockist disappointed by jazz" thread

this song is pretty good and your whole idea of there being a connection between lack of skill and creativity is implausible

It's also something I've never seen evidence for

>>73064880
That is true to a degree but it's really hard to generalize because even the most incredible musicians do like to just have their moments of wankery from time to time.

Sure the average person isn't gonna understand what Coltrane is doing when he's developing a solo by playing simple phrases and expanding on them in a theme and variations type way. To them it's gonna sound the same as when he is just wankin away. The thing is though he does legitimately do both not in equal proportions at all, but there is plenty of wank inside even the most technically beautiful music.

>>73062167
I don't even think that kid knows what he's doing honestly it's not that good from a production stand point that is what is putting me off it sounds bland because it is bland sonically speaking it's is uncompressed and shitty and I doubt he could pull this off live

>>73062167
I think it's important for there to be a balance. Think of it this way: Creativity is the ability to come up with ideas, while technique is the means to be able to clearly and accurately execute or communicate those ideas. If you're creative but have no technical ability, it's gonna be difficult to accurately play what you're trying to play, kinda like trying to speak to someone when you're stuttering and don't know the language very well. On the other hand, if you have incredible technique but aren't creative, you don't have any ideas to communicate through your instrument.
Unfortunately lots of uncreative people get into music and we end up with all these "virtuosos" who treat music as a sport more than like an art.

>>73065004
Agreed. But most of the posts here just see it as pure wank. I think most musicians at a certain technical level cut out a lot of the wank because that also gets boring.
>>73065037
There's a clip of him live in this thread. He's a good composer, but his mixing needs/needed work

>>73065037
of course he can't pull it off live lmao he plays like 10 layers

>>73063072
>Fuck jazz, theres a reason its called "Elevator music".
Jazz isn't called elevator music you dumbfuck, a specific subgenre called smooth jazz - which jazz fans all agree is shit - is called elevator music.
>I take every punk band ever over the most sophisticated jazz arrangement.
Yeah because "ONE TWO THREE FOUR FUCK THE BLOODY QUEEN M8S" is true genius

>>73065135
I find the least amount of creativity in non "virtuoso" musicians who think strumming an acoustic guitar with "deep" lyrics make them intellectuals or something.

>>73065211
>Jazz isn't called elevator music you dumbfuck, a specific subgenre called smooth jazz - which jazz fans all agree is shit - is called elevator music.
Jazz is perfectly fine music when it's made by competent musicians. Being some dumb kid going to music school doesn't make you a jazz musician. Real jazz musicians have cut their teeth in smokey bars and clubs.

>>73065211
>Yeah because "ONE TWO THREE FOUR FUCK THE BLOODY QUEEN M8S" is true genius

lel.

>>73065322
>Real jazz musicians have cut their teeth in smokey bars and clubs.
Yeah sure dude if this was 1920. And real folk musicians have to born in the Appalachians

>>73062167
Music is ultimately an outgrowth of spoken language. It is necessary to have something to say. Even instrumental songs need to have the potential for lyrics. Most music today is devoid of lyricism. Either they have no lyrics, the lyrics consist of short repetitive phrases, or the lyrics are random assemblages of pseudo-intellectual nonsense. In order to become a good musician, one must start by learning to speak with emotion, and also one must have something to say. It is better to have these things but have shoddy technique, than to have it the other way around.

>>73065373
>muh emotion
Just cause you don't here the emotion doesn't mean it's there

>>73065446
sorry i can't here the emotion between the 500 chord changes per bar

>>73063072

>Fuck jazz, theres a reason its called "Elevator music". You dont listen to that shit for an emotional response, but for intellectual wankery. I take every punk band ever over the most sophisticated jazz arrangement.

Finally someone fucking agrees with me.

>>73065473
>bragging about being a brainlet
whatever works for you man

>>73065528
go ahead and describe the emotional content you feel this song has, i'd love for a true genius to explain it to me

>>73065446
I said one must learn to speak with emotion, and one must have something to say. There certainly is emotion in the song, but it is divorced from language.

>>73065622
what do you want? it's obviously up beat and happy, but it's a nice break away from repetitive musical rhythms that get monotonous. It's creative and fun to hear

>>73065742
>i dont know how to analyze music

>>73065753
I was trying to explain what emotions I felt from it because you doubted that there was emotion in his music. I find it fun and feel like that was the intention.

>>73062167
Because modern schooling in the arts is all geared towards taking people who are naturally the best at something and making them even better at THAT SAME THING, rather than improving their skills in other areas so that they are balanced musicians (what all those classical greats actually had going for them.)

>>73063843
this is so fucking boring

it's the type of goofy shit that turns me off of frank zappa

>>73063274
I don't get how you can defend a song with a synth sound like that one at 3:25. Utterly tasteless

>>73063843
Fuck I hate his vocals. The instruments aren't bad at all though.

>>73064980
>Rockist

Except I like jazz music soooo....

Where's your argument?.jpg

>>73064865
t. 13 years old

>>73064442
good post anon

>>73064217
Adam is also clearly smart and knows his theory but he couldn't even do vaporwave right which is renowned for being easy as shit to make.

>>73062364
A thousand times this, here you have the destinction. I wonder though there are times where I can turn my conscious mind off and play something unconsciously good, but I lack that ability most of the time. Are creative people just capable of playing unconsciously most of the time? Or is there still a difference in creative capacity?

>>73065373
great post

>>73062167
Boobtality vs Asscality

>>73062182
:^)

>>73062167
Yeah I hate Jacob Collier, he reminds of other shit youtube musicians like Lindsey Stirling and Pentatonix. I'm secretly jealous of all his theory knowledge though.

>>73068709
i'm jealous at their ability to play so well, even sing harmonies so well

but their taste in music and all around sound is really shit

albeit they have a fan base so theyre doing what they want to do and i'm not

>>73063843
Fuck snarky puppy too

>>73068753
Fuck you as well

I think it's because at a very young age the industry and mainstream musical culture forces crap artists like Van Halen and Led Zeppelin down our throats, bands that barely pushed any meaningful sonic boundaries.

With this, those who are gifted say "I wanna be like that" because that's their image and perspective on what talent is. It's basically because of who gets what shoved down their throat, the days of Bach and Beethoven didn't really have that so it's different

>>73068901
> I think it's because at a very young age the industry and mainstream musical culture forces crap artists like Van Halen and Led Zeppelin down our throats

Time to hop in the Dolorean, Marty.

>>73062167
This sounds like shit so what's the point of music theory if it's useless?

>>73068937
Most parents still pass down stuff like that, and there is still a huge following

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>>73062167
Tbh it isn't even that bad besides the garbage vocals. As for the answer to your question its simple actually

Technical musicians have to put in more effort into the actual riff and music structure rather than just trying to be original/emotional. Thats literally it. For a technical musician to make something original it takes twice the effort then some punk band as they have to be very creative AND very technical.

>>73068052
>I like jazz music
obviously not