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80s Grimes

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Thread replies: 228
Thread images: 24

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80s Grimes
>>
>>72584853
no kate's actually a trained musician/can actually sing

not an attention seeking myspace scene girl
>>
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I just marathon-ed this album.
favorite track is the "Jig of Life"

I like the instrumentals more than the vocals but the vocals are good too.
>>
>>72584929
the big sky is my favourite
>>
>>72584952
Yeah the Big Sky is fucking catchy as all shit
>>
Its me , I'm Cathy :S
>>
>>72584929
>>72584952
Cloudbusting is top 5 of 80's songs
>>
A truly mesmerising woman. An incredible talent and a natural beauty

And of course, British
>>
>>72585034
I think the fact that she is beautiful and British at the same time the biggest and weirdest miracle about her
>>
>>72584853
you don't have to bait to get a Kate thread going buddy
>>
>Grimes
>tumblr-core blim bloms
>male equivalent of that music would be laughed at but muh geek girl aesthetic X'D

>Kate Bush
>talented, creative, leading the 80s art-rock scene on the frontlines
>modest, doesn't strive for spotlight by any means necessary
>lets her talent do the talking
>>
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>>72584853
You're actually right. Quirky experimental synth based art pop music with female vocals.
>>
>>72584926
>no kate's actually a trained musician/can actually sing
>being this idiot
It doesn't matter if she's trained or not, music is not a competition. The actual music matters. There lots of trained musicians who are dull as fuck and lots of amateur musicians who make exciting/stirring music.
>>
>>72585128
>Grimes
>tumblr-core blim bloms
>male equivalent of that music would be laughed at but muh geek girl aesthetic X'D
Lame. You didn't even listen to her music, buddy. btw, stop using buzzwords, ffs (wtf is even tumblr-core and how it sounds like?!).

Male equivalent of that music would be Aphex Twin or John Maus; people take them seriously as artists. Grimes is also taken seriously: http://www.metacritic.com/person/grimes
>>
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>>72585580
>being this delusional
>s-s-stop p-pls don't bully my waifu
>compares Grimes to Aphex Twin

you got me to respond, so I give this bait a 2/5
>>
>>72584929
>I just marathon-ed this album.
>marathon-ed an album

you mean you listened to it???
>>
>>72585608
You must have really low self-esteem desu.
>>
>>72585651
You're literally whiteknighting a below-average artist and comparing her to actual pioneers. Stop projecting retard.
>>
>>72585608
Your shitty post is not an argument. >>>/trash/
>>
>>72585676
Not that anon, but you must be a retard if you believe she's a below-average artist. You believe that based on what? Prove your shitty claim.
>>
>>72585676
BTW, the fact you replied TWICE it means you took the bait. Also it's stupid to claim that a valid point is a bait because you disagree with it. You don't seem to be very intelligent desu.
>>
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>Random demi popular """"""""""""""""""""""producer"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
>le im a musician theres my name there XD
How is she different from any other Hip Hop / Pop """"""""""""""""artist" ? oh right she is a hot milf
>>
>>72584853
more like 80's Bjork
>>
>>72585774
That too. But from this decade? What female singer/songwriter/producer/dancer/visual artist/sound engineer do you know, good enough to be the new Kate Bush?
>>
>>72584853
I would grime her mouth with my dick, if you understand my vide ;v)
>>
>>72584853
You guys suck
>>
>>72585807
Julia Holter, Susanne Sundfor, Joanna Newsom
>>
>>72584929
Running Up That Hill is at the top of my list of moody 80s songs.
>>
>>72585128
>>male equivalent of that music would be laughed at but muh geek girl aesthetic X'D
>literally who is Ariel Pink
>>
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kate a cute
>>
>>72585892
They're not producers and sound engineers. They're also no better than Grimes. All they do is verbose poetry set over boring instrumentals, unlike Grimes who really has a deep understanding of how melodies work and how audio frequencies affect the brain. Admit it, you were impressed by their lyrics not by their actual music.
>>
>>72585961
>Joanna Newsom
>boring instrumentals

l m a o
>>
>>72585974
>Joanna Newsom
>boring instrumentals
Yes. Almost the same boring stuff every time. Aren't you tired of it yet? And the less said about her Lisa Simpson voice, the better....
>>
>>72585508
Everything is a competition.

Do you live in the real world?
>>
>>72586071
I do. But this is art and entertainment, buddy. It's not like a person must pick just one artist to listen to their music. There's place for lots of artists in the music biz. The competition is just in the minds of autists like /mu/ users.
>>
>>72584853
Except Kate Bush has real talent and used to look gorgeous. Grimes is a hack and looks like a goblin.
>>
>>72586185
>Grimes is a hack
why
>>
>>72586185
>Grimes is a hack
So what? She's a talented hack. As long she's making great music it doesn't matter at all if she has no idea how to read some music sheets. In fact, that's a proof of her talent if she's able to make such gorgeous music mostly by instinct.
>and looks like a goblin.
Subjective crap that has no place on a fucking music board. GTFO waifufag.
>>
>>72585676
>You're literally whiteknighting
Sorry, but you're talking to a different anon.

It just amuses me to point out when people say things that make them look like idiots.
>>
>>72586253
>gorgeous music

her music is objectively bad
>>
>>72586294
>bait
>>
>>72584926
Actually she's more of a '80s Lana Del Rey

>my rich daddy bought me a music career
>>
>>72586185
>Grimes is a hack and looks like a goblin.
And I bet you wonder why it is no one ever takes your opinions on music or musicians seriously.
>>
>>72586294
>objectively bad
Anon, 'bad' is a subjective term.
>>
>>72586333
Actually David Gilmour of Pink Floyd helped Kate Bush a lot to have a career. Meanwhile, Grimes started her music career on her own at a low point of her life, She was supported by a shitty label that caused her troubles later (she doesn't own the rights of her first 2 albums).
>>
>>72586376
lmao read Plato
>>
>>72586344
He's a waifufag, do you expect good arguments from him? He should go and comment fashion shows, not music.
>>
>>72586344
t. buttblasted waifufag
>>
>>72586420
I'm the waifufag? You Grimesfags are the ones who relentlessly insist she's cute.
>>
>>72586451
>relentlessly insist she's cute.
You're such a naive dumbass. Those who insist she's cute are NOT real fans. They shitposted and you ate their bait like a fool. You must be new.
>>
>>72586431
>>72586451
>using meme terms like 'waifufag' and 'Grimesfags' unironically
>expecting to be taken seriously
see
>>72586344
>>
>>72586404
Plato didn't speak English.
>>
>>72586530
Prove it
>>
>>72586512
Why didn't you tag >>72586253
or >>72586420? They both said waifufag.
>>
How come that every thread with Grimes in the title gets so many posts? I bet that a Kate thread alone would be dead by now.
>>
>>72586568
Because you're an actual waifufag. Why do you care about her look so much if you pretend you're discussing music? Don't dish it out if you can't take it.
>>
>>72585774
MOMMY
>>
>>72586568
>They both said waifufag.
Ironically.
>>
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>>72586584
she triggers /mu/
>>
>>72585948
>was
>>
>>72585633
>things normies say
>>
When did /mu/ realize that Aerial is her best album/work?
>>
>>72584926
/thread

fpbp
>>
>>72589945
Fuck /thread. Not even Kate could compete with this:

GRIMES PROFILE

>Full name: Claire Elise Boucher
>Born: 17 March 1988 in Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
>Origin: Québécois, Ukrainian, Russian and Italian descent
>Instruments: vocals, synthesizer, sampler, keyboard, guitar, bass, drums, violin, ukulele

>Skills:
- singer
- songwriter
- producer
- sound engineer
- lyricist
- live performer
- visual artist
- music video director
- dancer
- model
- writer

>Main interests:
Music, visual arts, dancing, books, films, modeling, video games, internet, and others

>Music taste:
http://www.last.fm/user/chairmandore/library
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grimes_%28musician%29#Musical_style
http://www.pandora.com/station/2895208146671614201

>Others:
- Grimes does everything in her music, from singing and songwriting to artwork and production
- nice personality, beautiful look, cares about environment issues and saving animals
- took her name from grime music after discovering the existence of the genre on Myspace
- studied ballet for 11 years
- was a goth outcast in high school
- studied neuroscience, philosophy, and Russian literature and McGill University before being dropped out for missing classes
- started making music when she was around the age of 19
- big Lord of the Rings, Dune, Game of Thrones, Star Wars, Abbess Hildegard von Bingen and Russian literature fan
- her best friends are James Brooks, Hana, Bloodpop, Duffy, Born Gold
>>
Grimes smacks of white trash, she doesn't have that refined British aristocrat vibe of Kate Bush.
>>
>>72589971
This copypasta is the greatest meme ever
>>
>>72589971
she is also a novelist
>>
>>72589971
FYI she's also a professional color grader (look it up.)
>>
>>72584929
Kate's the only musician I can think of that I'd legit get into a fight over.
Like if somebody told me she sucked I'd push them down the stairs.
Also its a three way tie for me between Running up That Hill, Big Sky, and Cloud busting for my favorite track.
>>
>>72589971
she's also a professional piece of shit
>>
>>72590357
Asshole? Perhaps. Piece of shit? Not a chance - that status is reserved for haters/trolls on places like 4chan.
>>
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>>72589971
Dont forget. She was also the first woman to sail down the Mississippi.
>>
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Do people actually like Grimes or she just a meme here like Kanye & Death Grips...?
>>
>>72590585
I like Grimes she a cute grll
>>
>>72590561
>first woman to sail down the Mississippi.
Now that's just silly, anon.

Let's keep this factual. She's the first shipwright (look it up) to become a successful pop-star.
>>
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>>72590639
>girl
>qt
>>
>>72586333
Trips of retardation, David Gilmour payed for the demo tape that got EMI to sign her
>>
>>72590284
Good one
>>72590122
It's mentioned that she's a writer
>>
Grimesposting is horrible but honestly kate cant say she created 100 percent of her music like grimeth. Whether you like it or not its all her and that deserves some recognition.
>>
>>72589972
What a bullshit comment. You smack of neet, mr pleb.
>>
>>72590678
sickening. I'd rather fuck 70 year old Kate Bush
>>
>>72590585
>Do people actually like Grimes
Intelligent people, yes.

> just a meme
Being a meme and being a legitimate artist aren't mutually exclusive things. In fact, they're pretty much the same thing once you become famous enough. There is nothing 'just' about Grimes.
>>
>>72590727
>Grimesposting is horrible
It's the most entertaining thing on this sad & dull board, anon. The only thing that keeps me here.
>>
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>>72590731
>judging an artist based on a shitty picture
Don't be an asshole, anon. Everyone has bad pics, even you.
>>
>>72590731
>I'd rather fuck 70 year old Kate Bush
Waifufag alert!
>>
>>72586036
How the fuck do you consider shit like kill v maim to be not boring instrumentally?
>>
>>72590757
Sorry anon. Honestly i would probably grimespost too if they ever really discussed her music, shes pretty great
>>
>>72590824
I only know 3 Kate Bush songs sooo yea..Guess that makes me a Kate bush waifufag
>>
>>72590838
It's not boring, ffs. I listen to it as a stand alone song. It's sounds like a fucking The Prodigy track! If that is boring you must be dull as a brick. https://clyp.it/qburv25p
>>
>>72590911
Caring too much about her look and talking almost nothing about her music it makes you a waifufag.
>>
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>>72590777
>judging an artist based on a hundreds of filters, makeup, photoshopping, and airbrushing
anon pls.
>>
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>>72591058
I bet you didn't even see her irl, idiot. And speaking of "hundreds of filters, makeup, photoshopping, and airbrushing", all press photos of artists are like that, even those of Kate Bush. Use the same standard, ffs.

Grimes looks great irl; anyone who saw her could confirm that.
>>
>>72590838
>kill v maim
>boring instrumentally
Anon, are your ears full of wax?
>>
>>72591058
>not judging a musical artist based on their music
Makes you a /mu meme desu.
>>
>>72584853
Stop. Grimes isn't that good, not bad, but nowhere near Kate's level.
>>
>>72591188
>Grimes looks great irl
I'm assuming pic not related...
>>
>>72591058
she looks hot as fuck there
>>
>>72591379
(You)
>>
you're talking about kate bush without me? :(
>>
>>72590357
>>72590513
kinda true though, she manipulates and uses people. source: my asshole
>>
>>72591379
christ, anon, stop baiting
>>
>>72592130
n-nooo, she is nice
>>
>>72592263
i can tell you she treats people like objects
>>
>>72590678
succubi life sucking beast
>>
Grimes relies entirely on her below-average production skills, since she doesn't have any songwriting/vocal qualities.

Kate Bush is possibly one of the best female composers and vocalists of all time, not just in the context of popular music. Not to mention she also produced many of her albums entirely on her own and the final results were consistently brilliant.

If Grimes had 1% of the talent Kate does, I would like her.
>>
>>72592441
what did i just say about baiting?
>>
>>72590678
tranny tier
>>
>>72592523
you guys bait for positive opinions more than insecure ok cupid girls, it's practically the same thing even
>>
>>72592526
you don't understand femininity
>>
As much as I love Kate, I wish she had less fantasy high concept songs, and more personal music.
>>
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>>72592598
this is true feminity
>>
>>72592662
I actually love that about her and think it's what sets her apart from other female singer-songwriters.
>>
>>72584853
I wonder if she has a big bush
>>
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>>72592712
big ol' baBUSHka. Eh? am I rite?
>>
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>>72592864
>>
>>72592881
>>
70s: Joni Mitchell
80s: Kate Bush
90s: Bjork
00s: Joanna Newsom
10s: ?
>>
>>72592693
Well, the fantasy shit is better than generic love songs.
I probably wouldn't even be able to listen to Kate if all her music was about romance.
>>
>>72592943
00s was St Vincent
10s is Joanna
>>
>>72592943
10s: Joanna Newsom
>>
>>72592943
>>72592970
>>72592979
Joanna Newsom sucks, Bjork too.
>>
>>72591058
man her hair is really thin from all that dye
>>
>>72592943
GOAT female pop artists
>Kate Bush
>Donna Summer
>Lady Gaga
>Mariah Carey
>Marina Diamandis
>Rihanna
>Utada Hikaru
>>
>>72592985
I want you to understand this. This isn't satire and its not hyperbole.

I genuinely want you to kill yourself.
>>
>>72593060
ew, shit list

a better one, though not necessarily pop:

>nico
>joni mitchell
>karen dalton
>josephine foster
>sibylle baier
>björk
>judee sill
>fiona apple
>kate bush
>shiina ringo
>pj harvey
>karen dreijer
>>
>>72593094
this is terrible dude
And early Rihanna has some amazing songs
>>
>>72591368
>nowhere near Kate's level.
Eh. Kate's great and all, but remember - you're judging a career that started four decades ago. Grimes hasn't been around making music for even a quarter of that time yet.
>>
>>72593424
I guess you have a point. I listened to Art Angels and didn't care for it that much. I really like this song though.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-aWEYezEMk
>>
>>72593424
See guys? You can be a Grimes fan without being a pretentious fag. oh and yeah i totally agree, anon
>>
>>72593424
Kate Bush's first album had a number one hit that knocked Abba off the fucking charts when she was only 19
>>
>>72592441
>Grimes relies entirely on her below-average production skills, since she doesn't have any songwriting/vocal qualities.
Anon, b8 has to have some sort of connection to reality in order to make an impact. In any case, see >>72593424
>>
>>72593754
And Grimes' first commercial album had a track on it which managed to garner praise as the best song of the decade so far. Apples (pre-internet distribution with mainstream marketing) to oranges (post-internet distribution with indie marketing) desu.
>>
>>72593943
>garner praise as the best song of the decade so far
by who? P4k? lmao kid
>>
>>72593943
YEAH W-WELL KATE IS A BETTER DANCER
>>
>>72593754
>knocked Abba off the fucking charts
Abba who? You mean this? https://youtu.be/-crgQGdpZR0 lmao kid

Like I said - apples to oranges.

Also fwiw not only was Wuthering Heights Kate's first chart hit, it was also her biggest. Four decades of music making, and singles-wise she peaked with the debut of her commercial career. In contrast, Grimes is only two albums in, and already she has managed to improve upon her commercial debut in all aspects - including charting singles.
>>
>>72594303
Running Up That Hill was her biggest hit
>>
>>72594316
Wuthering Heights made it to #1 in the UK (#108 in the US) upon release. Running Up That Hill peaked at #3 (#30 in the US.)
>>
>>72594395
1985 was a harder year ok
:(
>>
>>72584853
kate bush would have to be mauled by a chimpanzee to be even half as ugly as grimes
>>
>>72595842
No kink shaming
>>
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>>72591188
>Rami malek posing in the background.
>>
Her performance in Wuthering Heights is just fucking phenomenal. It's just so funny, weird song with possessed choreography. I love it.
>>
>>72592943
Grimes
>>
>>72585961
oh boy this post triggers me, well done

>deep understanding of how melodies work and how audio frequencies affect the brain

What the fuck does this even mean? Please elaborate.

Also, I personally have no clue about what any Julia Holter song is about lyrically
>>
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>>72584853
except grimes is much better
>>
i'm not gonna read all this shit but i think i know what the vast majority of the thread is

here's a tip OP, try to refrain from using the word "grimes" in your thread next time
>>
>>72597128
ya so that no one even cares to post here
>>
>>72590332
i agree, shes irrefutably good
>>
>>72591188
anon how can you be this deluded, kate bush is very attractive, look at the symetry in her face, ive not seen a bad photo of her,

grimes has mis-aligned eyes, huge ears, a fucking monstrous nose and tash, literally go outside more you degenerate
>>
>>72592441
this
>>
>>72592598
hahaahahahaha best post ive seen in a while
>>
>>72592943
Lorde. I jab a feeling that new album is gonna be amazing
>>
>>72597273
>I jab a feeling that new album is gonna be amazing
idk that single was hot garbage
>>
>>72594395
if you did maths youd understand that on average running up that hill was far more successful
>>
>>72597231
yes >:(
>>
>>72597319
nice response
>>
>>72585759

>a singer gets someone who plays an instrument to arrange the music with some guidance

oh shit call 95% of rock band and tell them the jig is up
>>
>>72592285
Grimes treats objects... Like women, man!
>>
>>72597182
Then you're not a true fan.
>>
>>72597396
>the jig is up

But the Jig of Life isn't
>>
>>72584853
the most british face
>>
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>>72584853
The fact that she doesn't make music anymore says pretty much about how inferior she is as a musician.
Grimes will always produce music even if she retires as a singer.
>>
>>72585774
>I will never impregnate young Katie

Why live?
>>
>>72584926
I'm sure Kate Bush would have become a Tumblr girl if she was born in the 90s/00s
>>
this thread is disgusting. I actually miss the fucking hipsters.
>>
>>72585961
>really has a deep understanding of how melodies work and how audio frequencies affect the brain
The bait is strong in this one
>>
>>72597883
she's already producing songs for other people, anon

>are you sure people will listen to art angels and will want her to produce for them?
sure, why not? it's a critically acclaimed album in case if you don't know
>>
>>72597564
Not sure if Kate haters count as "people" anon.
>>
>>72598101
Wow.
>>
>>72598143
This year she produced a song for Aristophanes and co-produced a song for Troye Sivan.
>>
>>72597182
lol pleb
>>
>>72598195
>Aristophanes
who?
>Troye Sivan
who?
>>
>>72598128
fuck off this isnt a blog
>>
>>72598247
(You)
>>
>>72596688
>What the fuck does this even mean? Please elaborate.
It's a field of academic research known variously as Electroacoustics (if you're on the hard biological science end of things) or Psychoacoustics (if you're on the less hard psychology end of things) and is what Grimes was studying to do as a career at a major public research university prior to pursuing her musical career.
>>
>>72597319
>running up that hill was far more successful
Based on what metric?
>>
>>72598274
Nothing, I just guess I'm not a people.
>>
>>72597396
>call 95% of rock band and tell them the jig is up
Why do you think they're called 'bands'? To acknowledge the fact that their musical output is the result of a group effort.
>>
>>72585633
>>72589029
fucking loled at this
>>
>>72586400
and Grime and Kate Bush are actually good

Meanwhile, Lana Del Rey is shit and is only successful cause her dad bought her career
>>
>>72585580
>>implying Grimes compositions are anywhere near John Maus much less Aphex Twin
Grimesfags are fucking delusional
>>
Is this thread even about music? Why is /mu/ so fucking thirsty? I can understand /a/ but you guys are just pathetic
>>
>>72584929
The Morning Fog and Running Up That Hill are her best songs
>>
>>72599351
>shrug
>>
>>72585714
>>72585752
>>72586291
t.numales
>>
lol all these grime fangays
>>
>>72599915
lol you
>>
>>72599992
no u
>>
>>72598963
>using a retarded meme term like 'Grimesfags' unironically
>expecting to be taken seriously
>>
File: 1493068997549.jpg (222KB, 1080x1257px) Image search: [Google]
1493068997549.jpg
222KB, 1080x1257px
>>72599992
>implying thats a bad thing
>>
>>72599992
i think it's pretty nice desu
>>
>grimes fanboys always compare her to others
>but then whine when she actually gets compared to them with "BUT ITS NOT A COMPETITION"

You people need euthanized.
>>
>>72600506
real grimes fans never compare her to anyone because they understand she's objectively better than everyone else so no even need to compare
>>
>>72600592
i do compare things to grimes though, and i realize they're a shit
>>
>>72598101
If you can type you are ppl.
>>
>>72601591
if you're people than i'm people
>>
>>72584926
This.
/thread
Grimefags btfo
>>
>>72592943
very patrician taste, my man

10s belong to FKA Twigs
>>
>>72601767
nah
>>
>>72597677
how delusional can you be to think kate bush moving on from music is in any way indicative of her talent
>>
>>72585961
Grimes music is almost completely texture based, not very melodic, you waifu posters should atleast try to learn why you like her music
>>
>>72600112
Nor ban-worthy posts like yours.
>>
>>72602889
she used white males to produce for her and that's indicative
>>
>>72601767
see
>>72600029
>>
>>72602933
it's catchy
>>
>>72603120
most cucked post of 2017
>>
>>72603143
What does being white have to do with it?
also, production isn't necessary for musical talent, its great but disgarding someones songwriting because they don't produce is really dumb. beethoven never produced anything, do you hold that against him
>>
>>72602889
>how delusional can you be to think kate bush moving on from music is in any way indicative of her talent
Indicative of waning creative inspiration perhaps, but you're right - not of lack of talent.
>>
>>72602933
>Grimes music is almost completely texture based
Not precisely. Sonic texture is almost always a major part of her music, but there's also plenty of melodic content to go along with it (e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HweaxUT43Jc ). Oftentimes so much, in fact, that her song melodies start to take on the role of textures themselves. It's one main reason why I tend to liken Grimes' music to large scale classical symphonic type works - because that is a hallmark trait.
>>
>>72603511
I quite like that song but I wouldn't say its very melodically impressive (not theres anything wrong with that)
>>
god damn shills
i didn't say you could shill your shit here
>>
>>72603618
>I wouldn't say its very melodically impressive
I'd personally disagree, but regardless my point in citing that example was because of how stripped down (at least in comparison to most of the rest of Grimes' music) the non-melodic instrumental content is. It makes the melodic content easier to hear.
>>
God damnit these threads are irritating. Not because they're posted but because they devolve into shit so quickly.

I like Grimes' music. It's interesting. But do we have to all collectively ride her dick or whatever? Come on man. Just discuss the fucking music or go into another thread.

Why is that so hard?
>>
>>72604074
i only really care about grimes
>>
>>72604251
Why? What about her do you care about? The music... or her? I don't get it. Be more specific.
>>
>>72604074
>Why is that so hard?
Lol welcome to 4chan.

Not saying I like it either, but it goes with the territory.
>>
>>72604279
her
>>
>>72604346
I know... I know anon. It's just fucking exhausting you know? Like we can't just enjoy something without having two extreme ends coming in and fucking it all up. Like there's no middle ground,
>>
>>72604377
Do you know her? What was it like to meet her?
>>
>>72604074
BC Grimes is too sexy. Dudes cant get their dicks over her sexiness its distracting and it keeps people coming back thats why. Its uncontrollable anon
>>
>>72604458
I don't think she's sexy generally. She downplays it too much. Once in a while she'll doll herself up, then she looks damn good. But it's rare.
>>
>>72604382
oh are they really fucking things up that bad for you?
>>
>>72604495
make up does not actually make people sexy
>>
>>72604623
It sure can
>>
grimes is maybe the 10's kate bush? kate bush is a total original don't disrespect please! Thanks!
>>
>>72604667
you guys got it rough actually
>>
>>72604495
being sexy is about the way you act, it's about being confident and knowing how attractive you are. i don't think she needs to be sexy, she's attractive because she's likeable
>>
>>72604715
we can only try
Thread posts: 228
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