???

>>71806957
Those are both jazz albums.

>>71807340
i need /mu/ to tell me which is better

>>71807463
better than what?

>>71807528
of the two albums, which is superior in terms of overall quality of entertainment and execution?

Karma is better

>>71807618
Isn't that subjective?

>>71807618
idk, i'd determine that myself if i were you

>>71807633
no
>>71807650
do so then report back here. thanks for taking this upon yourself.

>>71807618
>>71807463
Did you try listening to them? That's usually a good way to find out which you prefer.

>>71807677
do what?

>>71807630
this

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>>71806957
Alright OP. lets establish one thing here. these records are in two distinctly different sub genres of what was called in the 60s "the new thing" (ex. Archie Schepp & Coltrane "The New Thing at Newport"), which is essentially black avant-garde music of the time. Out to Lunch is usually regarded as avant garde music or 3rd stream, it has chord changes, tonality, meter, and form. Spiritual Unity is usually regarded as free music, free jazz,or if you wanna be old school and kind of more correct then its called fire music. It has no tonality, form, meter, or other things most music does. its dumb to compare them, apples and oranges, both completely defining and excellent albums in their own right and genre.

>>71808093
but which is better you nonce

>>71808125
the one you like the most :)

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>>71808125

>>71807630
>Karma
>better than Out to Lunch

jesus christ

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>>71806957
Out to Lunch! is pretty overrated, only the first half is really good. I haven't listened to Spiritual Unity recently enough to remember anything about it.

I choose pic related

>>71808125
lol

>>71806957
>>71807463
They're both Rockist Jazz so they're not good

>>71808365
what is non-rockist jazz

I love Lunch and don't care for Spiritual Unity, it actually hurts my ears.

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>>71808402

If you like shit like Sun Ra, you'll like Ayler more. If you want stuff like Mingus then Dolphy is more for you. They're both great albums by talented players and don't sound anything alike so it's stupid to compare them.

>>71808093
I've never heard anybody call Out To Lunch 3rd stream and I've no idea why you think it is.

>>71808453
fuck off

>>71806957
No one has answered yet, it's Out to Lunch!, OP.

>>71808481
dolphy was a classical musician initally but like ron carter, was black so no orchestra job for them. that record is very heavily composed in terms of meter and harmony, which wasnt part of any jazz at the time so he was clearly borrowing those ideas and concepts from classical, where it was being heavily explored.

>>71808225
>Out to Lunch
>better than Karma
wew

>>71808566
>dolphy was a classical musician initally but like ron carter, was black so no orchestra job for them
This is the story of a lot of black talented jazz musicians and doesn't make what they were playing third stream.
> that record is very heavily composed in terms of meter and harmony, which wasnt part of any jazz at the time so he was clearly borrowing those ideas and concepts from classical
That's conjecture, but also:
>Classical influence =/= third stream
You could call half of the major jazz players from Louis Armstrong to Charlie Parker to Bill Evans to Chris Potter Third Stream musicians on the basis of that.

Spiritual Unity is better because it's too inaccessible for casuals and makes great pleb filter.

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>>71808735
many people do count parker and bill evans as some part of the third stream, not necesarilly third stream musicians but bird influenced it and bill was influenced by it though he is cited as a third stream composer sometimes. its also a pretty commonly held belief that dolphy was third stream and most of his records as a leader, especially studio records, are cited as third stream. also pic related

>>71808922
I mean, you could literally apply that exact same description to Louis Armstrong too though. Lil was big into classical and had him playing horn concertos. It's likely a lot of the virtuosity he developed going into the Hot Fives and Sevens sessions was probably influenced by that and his style was also, like Dolphy, foreign to jazz at the time.
When you start including people like Armstrong, Duke and Parker, the term loses the meaning it was intended to have as a distinct entity from either tradition.

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>>71809073
alright man, im too high for this and dont love genre arguments anyways. i dont even usually refer to out to lunch as third stream, i would usually say avant garde jazz. i made the post mostly to make the distinction between free jazz (without form and changes) and avant garde jazz (with form and changes). im gonna go smoke another bowl and enjoy this Booker Ervin and Dexter Gordon record. you clearly know your shit, have fun in the shed and at the club.

>>71808453
>shitty emotionless 2010s pastiche jazz
jazz has been dead for decades

>>71809073
>>71809231
Isn't the term post-bop pretty accurate to describe something like this that combines influence from classical, bebop, avant-garde and free jazz?

>>71809231
Fair enough. This stuff is kinda meaningless tbf. Usually whenever stuff gets called third stream, unless it's actually a Gunther Schuller work, it usually fits better under another name anyway. It's more a thing he made up to classify the weird middle ground the likes of himself and Gil Evans were in.

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>>71809314
eh, post bop usually refers to a very different sound though many of the players on this record are certainly some of the biggest names in post bop, this record just doesnt have the post bop vibe. probably because of the *cough cough* heavy classical influence...

>>71809314
Post Bop is the word I'd use alright. It's like a gradation between bop and free.
>>71809375
I want to disagree with you, but I also don't want to continue arguing about it.

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>>71809476
yeah ive had enough of the argument. find any good records recently?

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>>71809514
this

>>71809562
whats the deal with it? ie where from, style, prolific personel

>>71809599
Miguel Zenon is Puerto Rican and the pianist Luis Perdomo is Venezuelan but it's not really Latin jazz necessarily. A few of the pieces have some Afro-Cuban flavor or kind of influenced by folkloric music, but mostly it's just really good post-bop. Fairly complex compositions with lots of poly-rhythm.

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>>71809514
Been on a big Tony Williams kick lately. Lots of his early post bop stuff, Miles quintet, some of his late fusion stuff, etc.
Heard pic related for the first time recently and it's tentatively one of the best things I've ever heard.

>>71809657
killin, ill check it out. i was hoping it was some real killin cuban record from the 50s. my latin chops are sad and i need to get the sound in my ear.

>>71809514
Also:
>relation of Gunther playing with Paul Motion
intrigued/10

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>>71809699
oh man i love that shit. gary peacock pre 1970s acid freak out move to japan bullshit is insane. every other guy on that album is a motherfucker. have you heard pick related? very similar. sam rivers is so beautiful.

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>>71809706
This is the shit you want then. I love Cuban music.

>>71809758
that tim berne record is incredible. check it out, i randomly stumbled upon it looking through bernes discography and shit my pants.

>>71809768
oh man! cachao is off the hook. i transcribed one of his tunes and solo for a theory assignment a few months ago. i listen to a few records but not this one. thanks

>>71809838
Yeah Cachao can teach you a thing or two about a tumbao

>>71809766
I downloaded it recently but haven't gotten a chance yet. Cool that River is on it tho! Hadn't looked at the personell but I figured it was probs the regulars he was with at the time. If Life Time and Fuchsia are anything to go by, it's probs incredible.

>>71809803
Not him, but I was actually just looking into Tim Berne right before you posted that, never heard him and saw Fractured Fairy Tales on a list of best jazz albums and was checking it out.

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Tim Berne's still making great music. This one came out in 2015 and is awesome.

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>>71809914
>>71809803
Haven't heard of him before. Checking the two of those records out tho. Thanks anons

gloomy adoonis

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>>71810006
Kewl. Just looked Berne up there. Turns out he was actually on my AOTY last year.

>>71809914
yeah i wish i was more familiar with his discography but i love mutant variations. ill check that out. also dig this shit, its insane. >>71809906
another great rivers record is conference of the birds. anothony braxton, barry altchul, and dave holland. also check this shit out too
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0GGLhYNEV0

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>>71810176
Anthony Braxton was a fucking beast when he wasn't recording batshit solo sax improvisations or aimless honking timbre experiments.

>>71810176
Conference of the Birds is one of my favs, Dave Holland is the shit. Digging some Steve Lacy right now, i'll check that out after.

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>>71810291
can you dig it?