/comp/ Composition general

WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN

WHY HAVE YOU SHOWN UP NOW

ITS BEEN TOO LONG

And I was about to stop coming to /mu/.

Thanks Jools

>>70037568
same here, had to just create the thread in the end myself

someone explain to me how late romantic harmonic suspension works

what governs the modulations and why are some of the chromatic passing tones really beautiful when none of the ones i add in are

like for example at the 16:40 crescendo in this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SvuitFzDxDg

>>70037774
a modulation works when it fits the form. Chromatic passing tones without functional meaning sound more Mozartish that romantic. For romantic sound you need a functional dimension.

>>70037842
having what (since i'm not sure how to analyse them) are pretty much whole passing chromatic chords in the harmony is not very mozartish (though i know what you mean in a melodic sense)

how do the late romantic composers create that constantly falling sound and is there a system behind when to borrow which chords from parallel keys or what

>>70037881
I'm not sure if I get what you're talking about, but one tool romantic composers often use are diminished chords, meaning chords that are built by three minor thirds. If you put another third on top you get back to the root tone, so the chord is permutative. In addition it consists of two tritones which gives it a strong leading quality. So you have a chord that is very vague and can change it's tonality ad lib, and it has a strong urge to solution, this makes it possible to form passages that have a drive but leave the listener in doubt

>>70038037
i'm just asking if there's any logic to /which/ non-diatonic diminished chords to employ and /when/, among other tools they use

i can tell which chords they're using in which contexts but i'm not quite sure why

>>70038377
that's the point, you can use whatever chord you like, you just have to dissolve the leading tones correctly. But since you can always use the enharmonic equivalent you have a virtually infinite pool of diminished chords

>logic
:(

>>70038514
i wont be disappointed if there isn't one, but if there is i want to know it

>>70037842
don't listen to this guy he doesn't know what he's talking about

late romantic harmony explores pan-triadic and chromatic relationships that often have nothing to do with classical functionality

Any tips on how to differentiate a sentence from a period?

>>70039073
that's not typical for the romantic era, it's already used commonly by Beethoven and Schubert

>>70039286
echoeing a motif adds a bar

being happy about a /comp/ thread turned into accepting that it's already dead. No wonder these threads come up so rarely

do you like my song?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_vxjNdW9PE

>>70039850
>Beethoven
No.
>Schubert
Yes, but chromatic relationships in Schubert are spaced out and filled in between by classically functional passages. That's what makes him early romantic as opposed to Liszt or even later, Strauss who juxtaposed chromatically related harmonies as often as they felt.

>>70043805
>No
citation needed
just from the top of my head: beginning of Waldstein sonata, development section of 25th sonata, third movement of 5th symphony

>chromatically related
what is that even supposed to mean?

>>70043882
>what is that even supposed to mean?
It means related in non-diatonic ways. Maybe it's related by voice-leading distance, maybe it's through an augmented chord, maybe it's enharmonic. *Those* are among the romantic techniques the guy above was asking about, not "do what you feel" or "try using a diminished chord"

>>70043997
i don't know, in my opinion romantic music is still based on diatonic thinking. In the late romantic era it began to dissolve, but with it the romantic music faded.
To your other point: either something is related or it's separated. As you describe it it's rather chromatically separated. The thing about romantic music is pretending to be non-diatonic while still being it, that's where the heavy use of diminished chords comes from. It actually covers all your points: voice leading and enharmonic

>>70044109
You're not wrong, you're just simplifying it to the point of being almost wrong. The lecturers at the Paris Conservatoire weren't standing at the front of class saying "just do what feels good because we're Romantics". There are specific harmonic techniques and it's misleading to say they are based on caprice.

To the guy who originally asked the question, if you're still here read about augmented chords, I promise they are exactly what you're looking for. I know a few good books if you're interested.

>>70044231
not the other guy, but aren't augmented chords more typical for impressionism, since they don't have any function at all?

>>70044340
They have no classical function, yeah, but their "Romantic" function if you will, is to connect six different tonalities within a single chromatic step. Schubert did this all the time as mentioned above, though between his augmented relationships he wrote traditionally functional progressions.

There is way more to the augmented chord, but that's one of the general ideas of the thing.

>>70044428
that's pretty interesting, but isn't this the exact same thing a diminished chord does, only that the diminished chords consists of two tritones and can therefore be used as a dominant chord?

>>70044520
>therefore be used as a dominant chord
That's the point, is that augmented chords help you get to new tonalities, or at least new harmonies without suggesting classical-functional dominants. The fifth relation of classical harmony (and its suggestion via a diminished chord) is too heavy and just doesn't sound very "Romantic". So the logic behind the augmented chord has nothing to do with function and has only to do with semitonal distance, which is what gives it that very subtle "sliding" harmonic feeling that people often associate with Romanticism.

>>70044662
>that very subtle "sliding" harmonic feeling that people often associate with Romanticism.

or, as he described it here >>70037881

>that constantly falling sound

>>70044662
that's interesting

>>70044662
do you by any chance know what device Dukas uses in the beginning of the sorcerer's apprentice? It's a falling sequence of the kind I could imagine the other anon had in mind

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xazobZ22zro

at ~ 00:52

>>70044974
You're interesting ;)
>>70045036
There are people sleeping near me right now but if you point me to a bar number I could try to figure it out for you

>>70037513
interesting composition, maybe played a bit fast. There are so many ideas that there's no time to process them

>>70045235
it's the very beginning, I think it's the motif of the sorcerer

>>70037513
>composition is improvisation slowed down

https://youtu.be/A29_W_qYWAI

>>70046208
more like improvisation is composition on the spot

>>70046208
please tell me that improvisation is a joke making fun of that type of music

Holy shit lads, got my first listening/reading assignments for a composition program in an email today. Shit's looking rough.