Why do other composers even try?

Bach>all

however
Beethoven's 9th symphony was worth an effort

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>exclusive use of tonal scales
Bach didn't even try.

>>69713728
>some freshman posting Schoenberg every thread
Pro-tip for later years: atonal music is shit

>>69713728
Bach used the first 12 tone row.
Schoenberg was 300 years behind the ball

>>69713652
You accidentally posted Bach instead of Vivaldi. Simple mistake though don't sweat it

>>69713728
>in 50 years the postman will whistle my music guys haha i swear this is the future of music 2deep4u misunderstood gneius haha the future will get me haha i'll be really popular some day when they understand my denius

>>69713783
>atonal
>music

>>69715036
That's not his fault. We're the ones who failed him.

>>69715081
#IStandWithSchoenberg

>>69713783
>>69715057
>>69715081
I don't even think the issue is with atonal music, he was just a shit composer.

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>>69713728
>exclusive use of the chromatic scale
try harder

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>>69715019
topkek, so some people actually think such a primitive composer as vivadi is the greatest?
I guess I would think so too if I only listened to "BEST TOP 10 CLASSICAL MUSIC FOR RELAXATION AND STUDYING" on youtube

>>69717405
b8

>>69717639
b9

>>69718406
you sank my battleship

>>69717507

your taste in music looks pretty badass

>>69717639
>>69718406
>>69718421
i luv u gais

c:

4chins is gr8

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>>69713652
>>69713695
Beethoven?
tchaikovsky?
Vivaldi?
Brahms?
Wagner?
[spoiler]you listened to one composer and think you're smart fuck you[spoiler]

>>69719664
>tchaikovsky?
pop music

>>69713652
Literally not even the best Bach.

>>69713652
Bach sure is great, but only Beethoven showed the world that absolute music can carry deepest emotions

>>69721624
Beethoven's emotion in music more superficial, Bach's is nuanced.

I find Bach grating to listen to sometimes, whereas I could listen to Beethoven all day. That isn't to say that the former isn't the absolutely grand daddy of fucking music though.

>>69722375
Not superficial, not at all. It's more personal, more intimate. Beethoven was more egotistical, but that's not a bad thing when you're as brilliant as he is, and when you're dealing with music that was written 200 years ago.

>le Bach was the master of complexity meme

reminder that Bach by today's standards is not much more complex/innovative than a top-tier Beatles or Brian Wilson song.

Bach being the GOAT is literally a meme by people who have never studied music composition in college.

Schoenberg and Stockhausen are/were the true masters.

>>69722725
>you need to study music theory to appreciate music
>you need to study cinematography to appreciate movies
>you need to study drawing to appreciate paintings
>you need to study food science to appreciate food
Go away retard.

>>69722725
>Stockhausen
>master
Avant-teen detected.

>>69722725
>never studied music composition in college
>in college
I actually don't know what you are going for

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>>69722725
Schoenberg came up with a system and stuck with it. Not that much different than what Bach was doing.

>Stockhausen

>>69722850

quote me where I said that

I just said that on a *technical* level, Bach is not as impressive as people make him out to be. that doesn't mean you can't appreciate him/other music. I never said that.

>>69722915
He was the most innovative composer of his time. You have to be completely historically and musically illiterate to deny that.

>>69722990
How come other composers of his time sounded so similar, then? Where did he innovate?

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>>69722990

that's true but that's why I said by TODAY'S standards he is not as amazing (compositionally) as people claim he is.

but yes he was innovative for his time, I will give you that. However, that time was like 500 years ago.

>>69722905

>cherrypicking

also that's brilliant honestly

>>69723070
>other composers of his time sounded so similar
Like?

>>69723070
If you think other composers of the baroque period sound the same as Bach, you have proven you have literally no ears.

>>69723075
>by TODAY'S standards he is not as amazing (compositionally)
His works are a reference for Classical composition. The emergence of other composers with different styles, does not in any way change their quality.

As someone has pointed out your relentless Stockhausen/Schoenberg posting coupled with inane babbling gives away a teenager who discovered modern composers last Thursday.

>>69723271

I'm 22 and I've been listening to classical music for years.

What the fuck is wrong with Stockhausen and Schoenberg?

>>69713652
literally classical pop artist
fuck off poptimist

>>69723288
Holy fuck the avant-teen meme was real the whole time

>>69723124
>>69723144
Like this e.g.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lOPAy8wq04

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OuTQWyS5pAc

Please explain the differences.

>>69723288
Nothing wrong with them per se, but your imblyign pics coupled with pitiful attempts to critique Bach with retarded argumentation are rather cringeworthy. If you are actually 22 and not just a cat pretending to be human, consider growing the fuck up.

>>69723344
unrelated question, could someone(me) use the entire tableture to jesu meine freude in a song without getting in legal or paranormal trouble?

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>>69723398
>he doesn't want to hold musical discussions with the ghost of Bach

>>69723448
it'd be fucking spooky dude, have you never seen a ghost?

>>69723398
Care to explain what are you talking about? What legal/paranormal trouble?

>>69723472
like, if I played it note for note on a synthesiser for spooky dungeon music, would I get haunted and or arrested for theft?

>>69713728
did he actually think this or are you just memeing?

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>>69723464
>he doesn't know I'm a ghost

>>69723335

22 is teen now? Wtf?

>>69723393

I'm not saying Bach is bad, in fact I love some of Bach's pieces, but I'm just saying he is overrated.

>>69723500
meant to quote
>>69715036

>>69723496
Please tell me what is this meme. Sounds interesting.

>>69719664
all pleb-tier composers

>>69723288
Stauckhausen was a hippy fuck who made terrible music and was a complete eccentric, as can be seen in >>69722905 and his Licht cycle. Not to bring up other dumb shit like in Stimmung where he asked performers to sit in very specific cushions in a circle.

Nothing wrong with Schoenberg though.

>>69713652
I don't know, honestly. When I realize how fast he worked, how much knowledge he posessed, that he could practically improvise whole complex pieces in a single take... I don't know why am I even thinking that I could ever be a composer at 22, without any finished works and just a passable knowledge of theory. Life is slipping by and it's probably too late. /rant

>>69723544
what meme, I really just don't want to be haunted by any ghosts but I think the song could be really great in dungeon synth. I just need to know if I should take any preventative measures towards any hauntings that may occur

>>69723519
Biological age doesn't necessarily correspond to psychological maturity. As long as you keep using absolutely pointless buzzwords like "overrated" you will be a teenager. As long as you keep applying them to one of the absolute greatest composers of all time you will be a retarded teenager.

>>69723594
Very well, you don't have to give away your meme secret, but I will find it.

>>69723574

>Stauckhausen was a hippy fuck who made terrible music

kys

>as can be seen in >>69722905 and his Licht cycle. Not to bring up other dumb shit like in Stimmung where he asked performers to sit in very specific cushions in a circle.

hurr a few questionable examples are supposed to discredit him when he has made dozens upon dozens of compositions amirite

also Licht was brilliant shut the fuck up

>>69723596

>overrated is a buzzword
>Bach is GOAT

I think you are the teenager here

>>69719664
>Brahms among actually good composers
Come back when you're less pleb.

>>69723623
>Licht was brilliant
Nothing can cure your bad taste anon.
Maybe one day you'll see how great Bach is.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzerJmdStq8

>>69723613
its not a meme, please tell me if I need to worry about any spooky consequences of using the music

>>69723519
You've been listening to classical for years, so at 22 I'm extrapolating that you began as an avant-teen and never saw any reason to abandon that mentality. And now you're trying to hide behind the "I never said he was bad" excuse, but you were
>implying
it very strongly in your original post, in the kind of contrarian dismissive language that's typically used by people on this board when they want to call things bad. Language befitting of that "avant-teen" label.

>>69723623
>I think you are the teenager here
>"no u"
Brilliant argumentation. Seriously either start growing up or kys already.

>>69723669
You WILL have spooky consequences if you don't give me the source of your meme RIGHT NOW.

>>69723648

The Well-Tempered Clavier is literally just a training guide for people who are learning to play piano. Bach didn't even intend for it to be artistic, he was just writing something that would sell. that's a horrible example.

and once again there are some Bach pieces I love. I love Art Of Fugue and Mass In B Minor for example. at no point ITT have I said that Bach was bad or I didn't like him. learn to fucking read.

>>69723702
I promise its not a meme, I'm just worried, I don't like ghosts very much. They're really scary

Stockhausen is shite who made ridiculous compositions in his later life and mediocre. Why listen to Klavierstucke XI when you have Boulez's 2nd sonata?
>>69723717
>doesn't like the WTC, ignoring that it has some of his most original and beautiful music, for being an exercise
>like the AoF, also an exercise
Nice meme opinion

>>69723717
>doesn't intend for the piece to be artistic
>it becomes one of the most well-known and loved
>somehow it's a horrible example

>>69723732
I'll make some phone calls and send them to your house. The best way to get rid of a fear is to embrace it. Don't go to sleep tonight.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ykQFrL0X74
>Stockhausen apologists will defend this

>>69723812
what the fuck anon, I'm burning sage now, thanks a lot. I just wanted to make dungeon synth with jesu meine freude

>>69713652
Beethoven was a more complex composer, if you believe complexity means anything, which is silly.

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>people ITT taking a Stockhausen imbecile seriously

>>69723845

Stockhausen didn't care what critics thought. He lost his hold of the "establishment" shortly after he announced that he was born on the star sirius. The reason he uses helicopters is to explore the possibilities of music in space, because most music is about time but not space. So the movements and positions of the helicopters are all totally related to the musical content.

google "sound art" and educate yourself

>>69723929
>Stockhausen didn't care what critics thought
He also didn't care his music was bad and ridiculous either.

>>69723929
Art is visceral. Lengthy pseudo-intellectual explanations are indicative of hacks and delusional cretins.

>>69723961

Stockhausen wasn't trying to make good music in the conventional sense. He was trying to push the boundaries of sound and composition in general.

once again google sound art

>>69724004
>Stockhausen wasn't trying to make good music
/thread

>>69724004
>He was trying to push the boundaries of sound and composition in general.
And he did it in a dumb, impractical way that sounded bad.
You do not need to put your performers in helicopters to do what he was trying to do.

>>69723999
>pseudo-intellectual
it's not pseudo-intellectual, it's merely intellectual, even a moron can comprehend what he's saying

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>>69715019
>fugal elements
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYIBkC-pqzQ
>dissonance
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAD6lUivz10
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwfMSJiSFl0
>alternation of fast and slow motifs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khcUhxwUc18
>clashing styles of the BC and soloist
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUDnY4J8wtA
>syncopation
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgfJTMCfHQc
>creative manipulations of boring motifs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPFHEim8ZcA
UNDERRATE

>>69724039

>hurr muh helicopters

stop cherrypicking and go read about the actual genius/innovative things he did.

>>69724044
nice post 10/10
would tickle your boipucci

>>69724088
>genius/innovative things he did
Such as?

>>69724043
A moron would actually believe them to be sound. Anyone with a shred of intelligence can see it for idiotic New Age-esque pseudo-scientific babble that it is.

WHAT STOCKHAUSEN DID FOR ELECTRONIC MUSIC:
- Wrote banal chamber pieces featuring electronic instruments vaguely exploring acoustic space
- Did some really crappy generative pieces
- Made a slightly more scientific version of Messiaen's shit.

PEOPLE WHO ACTUALLY MATTERED:
>Pierre Schaeffer
The grandfather of electronic music. Pioneered the current dominant thought of thinking of sound objects (Treatise on Musical Objects)
>John Chowning
FM SYNTHESIS.
>Miller Puckette
Created extremely user friendly and commercially viable software.
>Jean-Claude Risset
Waveshaping, FM, invaluable in terms of psychoacoustic research.
>Iannis Xenakis
GRANULAR SYNTHESIS, wrote proper, scientific process pieces.
>Lasse Thoresen
Codified Schaeffers thought into an easily communicateable system for education and realization of electro-acoustic scores.
>Denis Smalley
Early digital synthesis, elaborated on Schaeffer.
>Michel Gerzon
Ambisonics.

>>69724137
>pseudo-scientific
>art
here we go again

>>69724111
>go read you pleb (c)

>>69724044
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khcUhxwUc18

Hey, did I just hear this at the beginning?:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGQq3HcOB0Y

>>69724170
>go find my evidence for me
"no"

>>69724150
>Miller Cuckette
>Worth literally any recognition

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>>69724156
>I don't have any arguments so let me post something vague irrelevant and contrarian

>>69723592
the regret will only grow, start making music now. It doesn't have to be perfect, just do anything. Your style will evolve while working, not while thinking about what you could do.
Don't trust the paper, only write down what's already done in your head

>>69724250
OK, then answer these plain questions. Can art be pseudo-scientific? What are relations between art and science?

>>69724044
>basic composition techniques
>better than Bach

>>69724412
Pseudo-scientific was relating to the explanation and motivation behind his work like "explore the possibilities of music in space, because most music is about time but not space". How the fuck do you even dare discussing this shit if you can't comprehend a simple sentence properly?

>>69722725
>reminder that Bach by today's standards is not much more complex/innovative than a top-tier Beatles or Brian Wilson song.

That's not even approaching a true statement

>>69724451
>explore the possibilities of music in space, because most music is about time but not space
This is a correct intellectual inquiry, since orchestras are always static when it comes to space, have you ever seen performers whose location in space is a part of a piece they're playing? What exactly is pseudo-scientific here, can you demonstrate us?

>>69724389
Thanks, man. Will do.

>>69724547
There is no thing to explore. We're playing music on man-made objects with known qualities and using recording devices with known properties. We're aware of the physical principles of formation and propagation of sound. The results of his "experiments" is deterministic and predictable, therefore eliminating the need to implement such and experiment at all. They are an equivalent of paint a picture with your dick under the guise of "artistic exploration" - pointless, worthless and weird for the sake of being weird.

>>69723344
The way of composition is very different, if you cannot hear this there really is something wrong with you. You are literally saying a 4 voice fugue sounds the same as an organ concerto. Are you saying they sound the same because the sound of the organ is the same?

If Bach sounds the same as other baroque composers, how come people can instantly recognize a piece written by Bach even if they have never heard the piece before.

>>69724412
Psychology is a science and I think that it is good to know, or at least, be aware of some of it if you are in a creative work. For example, I've been doing some design project for my uni and read a few dozen of books or so for it. Pretty much everything was related to psychology and how humans perceive things. I could directly apply that to any other visual medium, and while the music is different, it still has a lot of connections to it.

>>69723768
>AoF
>Exercise

That's funny.

>>69724896
>There is no thing to explore
Did you know that in music the "thing" is the sound? It's your intellectual fault if you can't see differences between musical and scientific experiment. I've already asked you what do you think is the relation between art and science, but you didn't care to answer.

>>69724945
>A collection of fugues and canons by Bach, bwv1080, composed in the 1740s to display a wide variety of contrapuntal techniques using the same simple subject
Sounds like an exercise to me.

>>69724899
Maybe there is something wrong with me and I lack experience with this music, but if you showed me this e.g.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-x3g0OIaJ0

I wouldn't be able to tell if it is or isn't Bach. Okay, I hear he is different than many of his peers, but I still see similarities in composition, not in the sound nor in the type of piece. I hear same techniques, same formulas and patterns etc. I don't know, maybe someone here can educate me.

t. spent 10+ years in a music school, playing piano, and I feel like killing myself when I realize I actually don't listen to much classical at all, nor can differentiate composers in examples like these. How can I even catch up at this point?

>>69725023
Btw, I didn't compare those 2 pieces at all, it seems that you thought I did. Those are from a same composer anyway. Just telling you I could mistake them for bach easily.

>>69724989
Why would Bach spend the last moments of his carreer on an exercise?

>>69725097
Why wouldn't he?

>>69725023
>can't differentiate composers
Is due to
>not listening to much classical music

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>Did you know that in music the "thing" is the sound
I just fucking told you that the totality of sound emerging from such experiment is deterministic, since all the actors in the orchestra-recording equipment system and their interactions are very well studied and understood. Ergo this is not an experiment at all, virtually unable to yield any new information whatsoever. I recommend you explore the music created by the sound of fist as you punch yourself in the nuts 50 times - this is just as productive and innovative as Stockhausen. Now stop triggering me with your blatant scientific illiteracy and Downs-child level of comprehension.

>>69725023
>I hear same techniques, same formulas and patterns etc
Well it's what happens in them that matters. They may write in the same forms (fugue, gigue, etc.) There were also just trends like ornamentation and continuo that caught on, so maybe they're similar on a surface level like the Beatles and the Beach Boys are similar.

>>69725062
I only listened to the beginning of the jesu meine freude video. Which is basically an arrangement of a piece by Bach. So it seemed as if you were comparing the two.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4SKrGYMp7A&t=301s

>>69725219
How can I learn what are those differences? I can't really tell just by listening.

>>69725244
You really just have to familiarize yourself with the music, that seems like the easiest way.

>>69725023
Here compare these two bodies of work. Both violin concertos. If you can't hear difference in composition you really have a lot of work to do. Especially if you spent 10 years in music school.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=59EDnhuBEpk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FdNlhZAYBE&t=2021s

>>69724111

I'm not spoonfeeding you

there's this thing called google, it's pretty cool you should check it out

>>69723075
Poly put your trip back on

>>69725372
Damn, I was looking for that first Vivaldi piece for a while, thanks.

I guess I can hear the differences, yeah, but I'm afraid I can't really describe them. I mean... I guess Bach has a more advanced counterpoint, it has more variations, it doesn't stick so much to a single theme/motif like Vivaldi's first concerto (I'm just talking about first pieces from both of the videos now). I don't know, that's what I can think of at the moment. I like them both though.

>>69723144
Handel, Scarlatti and Zelenka :^)

>>69723929
>implying its okay to be retarded just because you dont care

>>69724004
>Miley Cyrus isn't just a useless gutterslut google "Party In The USA"

>>69724177
More Dildo and Anus am I right?

>>69726078
What is that supposed to mean?

How do I into Stockhausen?

>>69725372
Which concerto is that you timestamped in the Bach video?

>>69725651
>Zelenka sounds like Bach
lmfoa

>>69726446
You mean at 20 minutes?
Violin concerto in E major BWV 1042

>>69726282
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1Psx24n3rM
Babby's first Stockhausen

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I think I might know a better one....

>>69713652
At the risk of sounding generic, are you seriously about to say Bach is better than Mozart?

>>69726823
beautiful

>>69727584
Haha, I'm suprised there is anyone crazy enough to think Mozart is a better composer than Bach. Beethoven I could understand but not mozart.

A-am I the only one who likes Paganini?

>>69727673
Further proof that Mozart is underrated.

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>>69728221

>>69728196
No

>>69713652
This is a true statement and OP is right. Stop being contrarians you gigantic faggots.

Bach is history's greatest musician.

>>69728879
Will there ever be anyone greater?

>>69726815
this "music" is dumb so please die

>>69729314
Its not even possible. The current milieu is so divorced from anything musical. A lot of musicians now grow up under the delusion that there are no rules and music iis purely subjective expression

>>69727673
Those are fightin words, bitch

>>69722725
This is obviously bait, but I'll bite

The most top tier pop music is still by nature homophobic music with chords and a melody. That's all

That doesn't even approach the complexity of Bach'S compositions

>>69731974
>still by nature homophobic music
...What?

>>69732003
I think he meant Homophonic - that is a single melody over a chord progression.

Popular music lacks polyphony, it lacks complex chords, it lacks finesse, taste, invertible counterpoint, pretty much everything that makes music interesting.

There are no fugues in popular music, because you actually need to know what you're doing in order to write a fugue.

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>>69723647
>mfw when you have this 100% backwards

>>69725115
>zing

>>69732306
Ah, I see now.
Thanks for clarifying.

>>69722725
>not much more complex/innovative than a top-tier Beatles or Brian Wilson song.
Come now, I'd say that's a bit hyperbolic. Either that or you've neglected works like Mass in B Minor, the Brandenburg Concertos, the Goldberg Variations, and well, everything else frankly.

>>69729680
>there are no rules and music iis purely subjective expression

This was the case long before Bach was alive.

Just because history has provided a handful of virtuosos who developed music into a theoretical artform doesn't change what music really is. Expression.

Reminder that fugues are not some kind of epitome and the holy grail of counterpoint, despite all the effort of Germanophiles to make you think otherwise. In reality Couperin, Chopin, Satie and Debussy were great contrapuntists who seldom wrote fugues, their only crime was not being a part of a Germanic tradition.

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>>69724104

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>>69733383
c-cute c:

>>69733428
Vivaldi is a handsome boy.

>>69733546
ofc he is, he was teaching in a girls' school for a reason
those fatass sausage fingered germans couldn't compete

>>69717507
clearly haven't heard Vivaldi's music besides 4 Seasons