What song best describes the plight of trans people?

that is exactly the kind of twisted logic that allows them to chop their dongs off in the first place

its a slippery slope of delusion i tell ya hwat

nirvana - i hate myself and want to die

>>69025318

go to bed hank

Showtunes!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JigBfoDtzY

>>69025254
>presume
is that grammatically correct? it sounds so weird to say outloud

>>69025254
the trans people I've met IRL are actually pretty reasonable and chill

1. sex and gender are distinct: sex is biological, and gender is a social construct.
2. but it is possible to be born into a gender that conflicts with your sex.

3. it is wrong for people to base their sexual orientations on sex instead of gender (claim in OP's pic).
4. but people should be free to follow their heart when it come to their orientation, and your heart often tells you that biological sex matters.

it is fucking incoherent

>>69025432
>sentences that have never been said before

>>69025432
the ones i've met had a really fucked up knack for making absolute shitshows of their lives and then trying to drag as many people as they possibly could into that shitshow
very unchill people in my experience
not chill at all

>>69025254

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5KJM4XCLSQ

>>69025432
many trans people are reasonable but the ideas surrounding trans-ism are insane. >>69025464

and many trans people take those ideas seriously, and many non-trans people use those ideas to accuse others of all kinds of opaque and subtle forms of moral failure

>>69025254
>as a man-to-woman transsexual the only appeal you have that real women don't is your penis
>you cut it off
of course no one wants to fuck you

>>69025432
>>69025531
How many trans peoplw have you guys met?? They're like 1% of the population

>>69025593
less than 1%, probably less than 0.5% and people still make a fuss about it on both sides
i've met a couple because i went to an arts high school

Swans - Freak
...think about it.

>>69025593
1% would be huge, theres no way there is 3 million trannies in america

>>69025593

Not even that, its anywhere from 80,000 to 200,000 people in the US, AT MAX.

Against Me - Gender Dysphoria Blues

Its p good

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>>69025651
trans includes people who never put on a frock, just felt 'different' It is a very inclusive characterisation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mFG3tS0QH8

>>69025593

I have one MtF trans friend who went through HRT, she's a pretty reasonable human being and really doesn't get the animosity trans people have towards heteros

We need more affordable psychiatry in the U.S.

These people are fucked in the head.

>>69025254
Unironically this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EgKdyHcZJcs

Nothing can live up to promise
Nothing can stop its narrative
Nothing in place of catalysts
And you’ll never be pure again

>>69025464
The problem with the entire lgbtqia+xyz community atm is that they rely on rather than fight against categorisation.

Like as if jews sat with the nazis and asked for a different coloured star of david because of their particular subsect of hebrews.

Think about it: People dislike how many names there are for identities, both sexuality and gender.
Solution? Don't categorise yourself as something like that, just fuck what you want and use whatever pronouns you want.
People don't like how much counter-hate the lgbt community perpetuate (cisphobia and hetphobia).
Solution? Don't categorise yourself, without the existence of defined categories like cis and het, trans and homo, you can't so easily draw lines of hate.

However I don't agree that the heart tells you that biological sex matters in cases like the one OP posted.
The person whom the trans woman is ridiculing is clearly sexually/romantically attracted to the woman, and merely is not following that DUE TO knowing their biological sex.

In other cases it matters, some people are sexually attracted to dicks and others aren't, nothing transphobic about that.

>>69025254
>plight
reifying genders, destroying feminism and the female body isn't exactly a plight
you're just a bunch of spooked neoliberals running around in panties

>>69025592
>"you have a vagina hence are unattractive"
have something you want to tell us, anon?

>>69025432
I'm trans, and I hate ninety percent of other M2Fs. They tend to be crazy assholes for the most part, and will shit on you as a traitor for disagreeing with them politically rather then letting you have your own opinion. F2Ms are usually pretty chill, though

tfw tans people act like sexuality is straightforward and unproblematic for cisgendered heterosexuals

tfw when they claim to be oppressed because sexuality is fraught and problematic for them

>except actually sex is fraught and problematic for everyone

people delude themselves into believing that part of the human condition is a form of oppression, and society applauds them for 'standing up for their authentic selves'.

in fact the only authentic position would be to recognize that sexuality as such is fraught and problematic, and to start the hard work of navigating sexuality anyway

eiffel 65 - i'm blue

>>69025593
I've met quite a few through lgbt societies, they're usually the only sane ones in the communities.

There's also a weird thing where gay men really hate trans women, like in addition to the rules >>69025464 talked about. lgbt communities are generally quite problematic.

>>69025865
Have you met like 3 trans ppl in ur entire life?

>>69025809
>is that they rely on rather than fight against categorisation
ikr most people in the lgbt community seem to don't care about heteronormativity and class struggle, they just care about political correctness

>>69025809
> The person whom the trans woman is ridiculing is clearly sexually/romantically attracted to the woman, and merely is not following that DUE TO knowing their biological sex.

so are you understanding this as a case where the heart tells you to go for it, but your head won't let you because you know she was a man? because I would view this as a case where the heart pulls in multiple directions--she is wonderful, but you just can't love someone who was born a man, for example.

>>69025912
you can actually like extend that idea to the rest of the modern activist groups. Not once did BLM talk about the existence of ghettos being problematic despite that being their worst plight. And the less we talk about feminists defending extremist religion the better.

>>69025932
Riddle me this: would you fuck a post-op ftm?

>>69025944
>Not once did BLM talk about the existence of ghettos being problematic

Because BLM is specifically about police treatment of black people. That's like being mad at an AIDS foundation for not giving their money to cancer foundations.

>>69025909
I wish. I've honestly been groped and molested by more transgirls then I have straight men, despite the fact that they should fucking know better.

It's easy to understand why people hate us when obese assholes who put in no effort into passing are the kind of representation they see, because more sane, passing transgirls don't entirely define themselves on one aspect of their being

>>69025995
No, it's like an AIDS foundation not trying to get gay men condoms.

The reason the police had a culture of getting away with killing black people? The black people were poor, had no money for court cases. The black people were from marginal communities, had no way to contact major news stations.
Police shootings are about ghettos.

>>69025593
A mtf does a lot of volunteering for the charity I work for.

They don't change their voice at all and just look like a cross dressing metalhead with bolted on tits. Despite the tits she's apparently non-binary or some shit too? Idgaf if I ever interact with her I just talk about Bengal cats

>used to be a man

Still a man. A mentally ill man.

>>69025995
to keep it /mu/ releated i'd recommend you to watch the uk blm lecture where dean blunt managed to get the whole stage triggered, he made really strong arguments

>>69026027
Yeah, either the US and UK have completely different trans people or you're a bullshitter.

No trans person I've met /in real life/ doesn't attempt to pass. Only the online troll-ish fucks don't attempt to pass because they don't gain dysphoria from not feeling like their gender identity.

>>69025995
They picked a shitty name then, since they're ignoring one of the biggest factors as to why black mortality is so high

>>69025979
well my heart doesn't even pull in the directions i'm talking about, so i am happy to say sure why not, same potentially with mtf.

but it would be totalitarian to claim that your heart CAN'T run in these directions, or that it is WRONG. i think in fact many hearts do work like this, and there is nothing wrong with that.

>>69026068
>a mentally ill man
Didn't realise this was an auto-biographic.

>>69026109
Well, it's scientifically correct to say that the heart doesn't do shit and that love of all forms is based in the sexual impulses of hormones. Hormones that are released after your brain subconsciously decides something is attractive. So, in a sense, Paul from that shitty Cornetto trilogy rip-off was right, we'd all be bi if we were intelligent enough.

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>tfw probably was born with a wrong gender but will never accept self-mutilation for something that can never be truly achieved and probably won't ever mention it to anyone irl

>used to be man
*is a man

>>69026199
No need for mutilation, hormones alone might make you feel better about your own body enough to feel better.

>>69026085
Do you think just because you haven't met someone like that personally, that they don't exist in the real lives of other people? Believe me, I can verify that they do, and they're as shitty in person as they are online.

I don't really give a fuck if you believe me or not, but the fact that you assume I must be lying rather then just I've lived a different life then you with my own experiences is fucking stupid. Perhaps people can still have valid identities despite the fact that they've taken different conclusions from life then you have

>>69026172
I am just importing the heart/head distinction from common talk; I did not commit myself to any view about the biological underpinnings of attraction.

but while we're on the topic, if my hormones shut off when you tell me you are a post op mtf, then it seems like that is morally on a par with your hormones creating various kinds of gender disphoria. in both cases people are entitled to feel how they feel, and we allow them to find a way to make peace with their brain chemistry. I don't understand how one kind of following your hormones could be authentic self-realization but the other is just transphobic.

also I don't understand how intelligence has anything to do with it. those last two sentences do not have anything to do with each other, at least as far as I can tell.

Ministry - Every Day Is Halloween
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALzjzHdU6NU

>>69025432

this, I've met at least three trans people and they were all pretty cool, one of them I consider a pretty good friend. one of them was kinda bitchy a lot but in general nice. like she was bitchy but not actually a bitch, if you know what I mean.

>>69026278
I first assumed that you were from America and hence the trans people there have a different culture, I've been to a lot of major cities in the UK and have been part of a lot of lgbt societies within those, and not once met someone like that in the trans community.

>>69026302
Yeah sure, if it were a real thing that hormones shut off from hearing the words "I'm trans" then you're right, but it's definitely not a common thing.

Intelligent creatures as we are, humans have sex for pleasure rather than recreationally, the maximum amount of pleasure can be taken from having sex as much as possible, by being bisexual or pansexual you have opened the doors to have as much sex with other humans as is possible.

>>69026172
>>69026302
follow up: actually your post is a serious distortion of what psychology and neuroscience tell us about attraction. in particular:
> love of all forms is based in the sexual impulses of hormones. Hormones that are released after your brain subconsciously decides something is attractive

What? Your brain decides it's attracted to something without hormones? The hormones only come in later? Where the hell do you think the initial attraction comes from, the cortex?

>>69025254
That argument is illogical. Aging is a natural process. Changing your gender requires operations and hormone changing drugs. Of course people would be more comfortable with the idea of having relations with someone that naturally became viable for sex through time. The latter for a trans woman is different because they needed something to become a woman by unnatural means. That's the distinction.

>>69026420
Sorry, yeah, because the brain is not needed for attraction, there's a secret nervous system that goes right from your eyes to your crotch, or from all of your sensory neurons to your crotch (since simply the sensation of being touched can also invoke sexual attraction).

The brain always decides whether it is attracted to something, as I said: subconsciously. Just as it decides to be hungry, and then to make your stomach rumble with hunger.

>>69026409
you are taking for granted that sex with a trans person would be pleasurable for the kind of person you are talking about. as if they are simply being irrational not to have as much sex as possible. (by the way lots of things are done for pleasure; it doesn't follow that it would be rational to do them as much as possible!)

you are also dogmatically asserting that we don't generally have visceral (= hormonally driven) responses to finding out people are trans. Hell no, that is very common, and I would guess that the psychology literature would back me up on this.

btw if you think it sounds weird to have a hormonal response to some words, why is it not weird to have a hormonal response to being forced to wear certain clothes, use certain pronouns etc? again, these seem to be on a par.

>>69026409
I'm from Canada so I can only really speak to that. I don't know what things in the UK are like, whether transpeople from there have a different culture and don't tend towards obnoxiousness as much.

>>69025500
I've only met two trans people in my life (both female to male) and other than the extemely obvious appearance outing them as trannies, they were perfectly nice and social and not hysterically emotional in any way.
I imagine most trans people aren't like that though.

>>69025254
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cwrkw3hfSdM

>>69026475
the question is not what happens in the brain as opposed to other parts of the body. the question is what you are 'stuck with' and what you choose. OP's twitter poster presumably thinks you are 'stuck with' being trans, but you rationally choose not to have sex with people who turn out to be trans, as though it makes no sense to be sincerely not attracted to trans people. okay, so my brain decides subconsciously that i am attracted to you. then you tell me you are trans, and subconsciously the attraction fizzles out. just because you needed to say words to me to generate the second subconscious reaction doesn't mean that it was somehow not an emotional/visceral/hormonally-based response.

i don't know what the point of talking about 'secret nervous systems,' since those kinds of systems release hormones too.

>>69026546
>I would guess that the psychology literature would back me up on this.
I wouldn't. Nice meme tho.

>>69026555
So now you are assuming that I have lied about my experience?
Oh the turntables

>>69025752
even if they are fucked in the head, who are they hurting?

>>69026700
Yeah, and more intelligent beings have more control over their body. I don't blame transphobes for their inate transphobia, but that doesn't mean it can't be unlearnt.

>>69026735
You have said tons of stuff during this argument showing that you clearly know very little about psychology and neuroscience. I wasn't going to call you out on it but if you're going to insult me I guess I will: you plainly have no idea what you are talking about. You are just waving your hands.

>>69026787
>I wasn't going to call you out on it
>*doesn't call anything out, just makes general statements that have been made by other commenters*
Ok mate

>>69026272
I don't think I'll feel better as a freak of nature with a manboobs and a flaccid dick while I have a full body of hair and a strong jawline

>>69026783
so this is the fundamental thing i disagree with you about: it is not transphobic to fail to be attracted to trans people. That is not something people should have to 'unlearn.' I don't understand how a queer person can suggest with a straight face that if you are not naturally attracted to someone you should be learn to be attracted to them. Does this not set off alarm bells? You are literally suggesting a form of conversion therapy.

>>69026735
Nice gotcha, even though I didn't say shit about your experience, just that I haven't been to the UK and can't say anything about what it's like there. Glad you got that gotcha in there though, if you're any indication transgirls in the UK are just as prickish as they are here, so I guess I did learn something

>>69026820
My specific objection is that you are treating the brain like it is importantly differently from the central nervous system in general. What links your eyes to your crotch is cns, nobody cares whether the nerves involved are actually located in your head.

>>69025254
I used to be a kid too fag

>>69026846
Hormones change the shape of ur body, my dude. You no longer grow thick dark hair on your legs/chest/back/arms, the fat from your torso moves towards your hips and ass (and tits, although you'll likely end up with a bigger ass than tits). Your jawline will also soften, not to say that women (a la Angeline Jolie) don't have strong jawlines, too. Your skin will become less rough, your hairline will be less receded and your head hair thicker, you wont grow facial hair in the same way.

>>69026853
It is transphobic to be sexually turned off at the mention of someone being trans. That's a response to desgust, being inately desgusted to trans people is transphobia.

>>69026859
If you would describe the way I've been acting as prickish, then, buddy, you're the reason "safe spaces" exist. Grow up and smell the fresh public and mature discourse.

>>69026943
Literally everything you do is done through the CNS, your thoughts are just electronic impulses in your brain, and yet you can choose to think.

Coincidence? I think not.

>>69026068
>the 'being trans is a mental illness' meme again
kill urself my man

>>69027002
Please stop, Satan

>>69027002
Fuck off to r/transgender please, tripfag

>>69027002
>It is transphobic to be sexually turned off at the mention of someone being trans. That's a response to disgust, being inately desgusted to trans people is transphobia.

that is so, so crazy. Most gay men I know are completely turned off, indeed disgusted by the idea of having sex with a woman. Does that make them women-phobic? Heterophobic?

YOU DO NOT HAVE TO BE PREJUDICED TO BE TURNED OFF BY THE IDEA OF HAVING SEX WITH A TRANSSEXUAL. PERIOD.

i am even a little tempted that this is really just about the fact that trans people are frustrated that they are not attractive to many of their would-be partners, so they try to turn it into something where all those people ought to be attracted to you, and they would be if they were more rational, and moreover they are WRONG not to be attracted to you. Boy, isn't that a comforting thought!

This is 36 styles of ridiculous.

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>>69027022
Gender Theory was created by Jewish doctor John Money. David Reimer was the first victim, boy given hormones and raised as a girl, later killed himself. Jewish billionaire George Soros funds LGBT organizations in America and around the world. There is a massive campaign going on to feminize white boys. They are afraid of white masculinity, the nordic warrior spirit, cause its the only thing that can beat them

>>69026199
Being born with the wrong gender is the same thing as a having a mental illness, you should take some hormones, but not estrogen hormones, testosterone hormones.

>>69025331
N O W T H A T S W H A T I C A L L E D G Y

>>69027022
It literally is a mental disorder. That's why you have to see a doctor to get prescribed stuff like estrogen, and can't just buy it over the counter. Denying that is just stupid, it's like saying being gay is a choice

>>69027019
NOOOOOO! NOOOOO! THIS IS YOU NOT UNDERSTANDING NEUROSCIENCE!!!!!!]

JUST BECAUSE IT HAPPENS IN YOUR BRAIN DOESN'T MEAN IT IS SOMETHING YOU FREELY DO.

>Literally everything you do is done through the CNS, your thoughts are just electronic impulses in your brain, and yet you can choose to think.

>Coincidence? I think not.

THAT IS THE MOST NON SEQUITUR NON SEQUITUR IN THE HISTORY OF NON SEQUITURS

>>69027128
the nordic warrior spirit is dead, dude
the last refuge of uncompromised european masculinity are the slavs, which is why so many ultra-liberal tumblrgirls fetishize right-wing slavic thugs and football hooligans and shit

>>69026199
>you should take some hormones, but not estrogen hormones, testosterone hormones.
do what >>69027132 said

>>69027127
Read the context, moron, the context was:
Person a: attracted to person b
Person b: tells person a that they are trans
Person a: no longer attracted to person b

>>69027181
>the last refuge of uncompromised european masculinity are the slavs

As a slav living in slavic country I find notions like this hilariously wrong.
Slavs are tend to be laughably insecure about their maculinity and men-on-men rape is much more common thing than it is in the western world

>>69026199

>probably

shouldn't you fucking know?

>>69027171
Sorry, Mr. Neuroscientist, why don't you correct me then?

Where are your corrections?

>>69027212
Yeah, sorry, but gender dysphoria is not based on testerone or estrogen levels. This is a misunderstanding of neuroscience.

Get ready for me to correct it:

Dysphoria in all cases is based on the ability of the transmitters between neurons to release dopamine. In the cases of trans people, this can be positively affected through feeling as though you are in the right body. To achieve this, one may take estrogen to appear more female to themselves or testosterone to appear more male to themselves, whichever suits themselves.

>>69027214
A) I am the same guy you have have been talking to the whole time. I know the context.
B) In the third step there, when person a is no longer attracted to person b, that is the moment I disagree with you about. You think you have to be transphobic to have that change of heart. I say you don't. If I was a masculine looking woman flirting with a gay man at a bar, and then I tell him I'm a woman, would he not be instantly turned off?

I am trying really hard to carry on a discussion but I feel like you are just getting mad and insulting me rather than making a serious attempt to think through and argue your point.

Just answer this question: do you have any problem with the situation above, where the gay man is no longer attracted to me because I told him I'm a woman?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FBX9jekR1ZM

>>69025432
I've met several Trans People. Again, all of them were very nice people and were quite chill. One became a very close friend of mine.

>>69027285
a lot of trans people are marginalised within the lgbt community as not existing, but pretty much all trans people face some dumb >>69027132
>>69027212
comments that invalidate their existence.

It's very hard to be sure of something like this when people are always telling you that you definitely aren't (not that I'm accusing you of doing this).

>>69027300
I am 'mr neuroscience' and >>69027305
Okay, it is not about hormones per se. It is about brain chemistry and free will. I claim that brain chemistry alone can account for that moment when you find out the person is trans and suddenly you stop being attracted to them; no free choice or prejudice is reuired. I also claim that this makes that moment on a par with disphoria and other similar phenomenon. I conclude that you cannot delegitimize the fact that people often get turned off by trans people without delegitimizing phenomena like disphoria. Both are direct results of brain chmeistry over which we have no control. They stand or fall together, and I think they are both legitimate.

>>69027285
You really think it's that easy to tell?
I can't tell if it's that or just fucked up hormones due to childhood illnessess and questionable therapies summed up with insecurity due to being single child fostered without any kind of father figure.

>>69026743
Themselves, and frequently.

>>69027305
I have no problem with the situation if it existed, but attraction is physical and a masculine looking woman is still physically not a man and hence does not garner physical attraction from gay man.

Just answer this question: How can anybody be attracted to men knowing all of them originally had a vagina?

>>69026606
Well obviously because they want to be men. M2F is where you find problems.

>>69027181
I work out every day, I call out numales, I feel no shame in being white and Straight, I hunt my own food occasionally and I love nothing more that a day at the shooting range. I'm ready to fight for my people and make my ancestors proud. It aint that hard, kiddo

transgendereds are mentally ill

MY MOUTH

>>69027300
And my correction is really general. It is not objection to my correction that it is general.
My correction is: you are playing fast and loose with the connections between freedom and what part of the CNS a mental even takes place in. You are also assuming that some kind of morally objectionable disgust has to figure in the fact that many people are not attracted to trans people. That second thing is a fact about empirical psychology, if it is a fact at all, and so it isn't something you can just assert without evidence. So I also thin you are running scientific results together with the content of armchair social theories

>>69027380
I argue that prejudice is not free choice, it is ingrained, not taught in a History lesson on WW2 sense, but taught in a psychologically conditioning someone to feel happy whenever they smell a specific scent way.

>>69027431
So, you're a cuck who, instead of being somebody based on what they actually want, is someone based on a prehistoric concept of hunter/gatherer that for some reason they themselves has skewed to include gender?

See me fucking your girl, beta bitch.

>>69025254
that shit is hella gay

this song is beautiful and uplifting btw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsF0BoJSeqA

>tranny is namefagging and seeking arguments
Wow, very surprising.

>>69027502
politicizing your innability to get laid is never a good idea, it really puts people off

>>69027523
There would be nothing wrong with a trans person using a name if they were either more entertaining with their arguing or simply better at it.

>>69027423
>but attraction is physical and a masculine looking woman is still physically not a man and hence does not garner physical attraction from gay man

so a trans woman is still physically not a woman and hance does not garner physical attraction from heterosexual men.

it is the same situation man. I really feel like you have actually just conceded my point.

YOU CAN PHYSICALLY FAIL TO BE ATTRACTED TO A TRANS PERSON JUST LIKE YOU CAN PHYSICALLY FAIL TO BE ATTRACTED TO A WOMAN

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>me
>5'4-5'5 manlet
>naturally androgynous
>still shorter than the average woman

i hate myself and regardless if i'm passable i'm still short as hell. life can be so cruel.

>>69027585
No you want to be short you fool
Itll help you pass as a woman even easier

>>69027566
Except they're trans and therefore invalid.

>>69027606
I don't see how that is relevant.

>>69027502
So I am not claiming that prejudice is a free choice. Instead I am saying that prejudice doesn't enter into it. Brain chemistry alone is enough to stop you from being attracted to a trans person when you find out they are trans. That is my claim.

But assume I am wrong about that. You are claiming that you have to be taught not to be attracted to trans people. What makes you think that? (I assume you don't think I have to be taught to be attracted to other men, for example. What is the difference?)

>>69027494
No, it's pretty well defined:
https://www.worldcat.org/title/current-concepts-in-transgender-identity/oclc/37156496
Give that a good read and you'll understand why hormone replacement therapy is the most taken option for treatment of gender dysphoria.

>>69027161
yeah sure
i guess if you are born with just one hand, wanting to have two hands is just a mental illness too so you shouldnt get a prosthetic one

>>69027748
Being born with two hands and wanting only one is regarded as a mental disorder though: BIID.

>>69027572
except that isn't true, trans women post op (what the OP posted about) are physically women. They have breasts and a vagina, little to no body hair, larger hips than shoulders, and softer skin and thicker head hair.

>>69027641
If you were to give a reasonable explanation of this supposed brain chemistry, or even cite a source that does, I'd be happy to concede.

For the moment, you sound like you're simply bullshitting based on prejudice of your own.

>Brain stops person from being attracted to people simply because of being trans
>Not prejudice to trans??

>>69027585
Except that makes it even easier.

I'm short, fat, and hairy.

you can't miss what you forget

>>69027730
any specific article in mind? and based on these titles i don't think these articles actually contain any evidence that you cannot physically fail to be attracted to trans people, which please remember is the topic of our argument. they all appear to be about trans people, their psychology, their culture etc. they are NOT about whether and under what circumstances members of other groups are attracted to trans people. which, once again, is the topic of our argument.

i appreciate that you went and found something in the literature but you should look for some evidence that is closer to the conversation we are having

also I give up. I don't think you are someone who can be persuaded by argument, since you have dodged, distorted and dismissed what I have been saying, rather than addressing or disputing my points. I don't know why I stuck it out as long as I have

try transitioning your chromosomes faggots

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>>69025254
You all listen to pure shit. Enjoy wallowing in the cancerous filth. You listen to shit because your lives are shit; you are shit. Shit echoes through your minds and souls, this epidemic of shit has never been so apparent until this thread. If there were two extremities of shit, you would all be furthest away on either side. None of you even have a slightly redeemable quality. Enjoy being 100% shit whilst I listen to my superior music; the audible ambrosia that it is. I hope your ears rot in the diarrhea of sound that is your shitty music.

>>69027886
This was aimed at the dude who said I was talking shit about dysphoria being treated with hormone replacement therapy, not you.

>>69027893
what gender are people with the Klinefelter syndrome, XYY syndrome, de la Chappelle syndrome, etc.?

>>69027997
why are you calling ur girltinkler a dick wtf

>>69027832
So a trans woman is not physically a woman. You can't physically be a woman if you have a Y chromosome. To deny that is to deny the distinction between biological se and gender.

I agree I would benefit from a source on the brain chemistry claims I have been making. But I guess I don't see those claims as being all that vulnerable to dispute. It is universally agreed that we are attracted to people, broadly speaking, for reasons of brain chemistry. That is, attraction is a neuro-biological phenomena that has roots at the lowest levels of human physiology. You are the one calling that claim into question, but I mean it that is really a point of widespread consensus. There would not be some article I can cite to support this claim; it is more the kind of thing that would show up in the early pages of any textbook on sexual psychology.
So I feel like actually the burden of proof is on you if you are disputing such a widely held claim.

>Brain stops people from being attracted to people simply because of being trans
>Not prejudice to trans??

Again that is problematic. Brain stops people from being attracted to people simply because of being a woman. Prejudice to women? Again it is the same argument. If it works in one case it should work in both. But clearly no one thinks gay men are prejudiced against women, at least not prejudiced in the sense that you mean.

Okay maybe I don't give up.

>want to be a girl
>never gonna do anything about it except feel bad

eh

>>69028047
just do it
buy ur titty skittles

>>69027997
1) It's XXY not XYY.
2) The Y chromosome denotes being male regardless of how many X's are present.
3) Hence they are still male.

>>69027128
What the fuck dude. How can you believe that?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVMXSNF3K5w

>>69027997
Well you did post it in response to my post, so I sort of assumed it was a response to my post. Difficulties of arguing with anonymous posters notwithstanding

>>69028072
it is actually a platform position for some right wing parties in eastern europe. and it is literally george soros that they claim is responsible. that's what happens when there are not many credible sources in your language

>>69028035
bc, like dicks, it continuously makes me feel shit about myself, hangs where it shouldn't, and makes me look like a fool infront of cute girls.
>>69028041
There are many men born with no Y chromosome and many women born with one, it's a pretty common biological error.

Is it broadly agreed that we are attracted to people based on their chromosomes? Do I need to take a blood test every time I have sex to check what chromosome I have?

Not the same argument as you aren't initially attracted to the woman, like I said before the context makes it different.
Person A is initially attracted, then due to finding out something about the person, is no longer attracted.

>>69028047
what lauren said

>>69028065
Those three are all separate, not the same one, hence you only replied to the first one.
Still gonna wait on the second two.

>>69028083
Sorry dude my fault.

>>69028148
If you were born with a penis, you are male.
If you were born with a vagina, you are female.
To think you can change this via mutilation is a twisted and WRONG logic.

>>69027832
but can their vagina ever be udistinguishable from a real one?

The reason it's so easy to trigger trans people is because they are wrong.
They are so fundamentally wrong that ANY opposing argument to theirs is correct.
What do most wrong people do when faced with correct logic?
Deny it.
Congrats on self-justifying your mental health issues. Pansies.

>>69028130
So are you claiming that if I am a gay man I will automatically not be attracted to women, even if don't know they are women?

Of course I don't think you need to check chromosomes before sex. But it seems like you think we have a natural subconscious ability to tell men apart from women, yet denying that we could have a natural subconscious ability to tell biologically women apart from trans women. Why do you think that? What is the difference supposed to be?

You will notice that almost all of my comments have ended with a 'what's the difference?' question. I don't feel like you have ever given me a clear answer. Fundamentally my argument is that there is a tension in your position between allowing natural non-attraction in some cases while assuming non-attraction has to be based on prejudice in other cases. You have not answered me until you address that tension. So what is the difference supposed to be?

>>69028304
"so you are claiming" refers back to an earlier post--obviously you don't claim this in the post i am replying to!!

>>69028201
sex and gender aren't the same thing dumbass.

>>69028247
Are you implying that vaginas all look the same? Buddy, you haven't seen enough vaginas.

No vagina is indistinguishable from another, they are all distinguished.

>>69028304
There is no difference between a post-op trans woman and a cis woman, that's why the only thing that turns insecure dudes off of post-op trans women is them saying that they are post-op trans women.

The difference is that cis women don't have to say "I'm a cis woman" for a gay man not to be attracted to them, whilst a straight man has to be told that a trans woman is a trans woman to suddenly be turned off of them.

It proves plainly that the only difference between cis and post-op trans women to people who want to have sex with them is the words before their titles.

>>69028353
oh nevermind, actually you do implicitly make that claim when you say
>Person A is initially attracted, then due to finding out something about the person, is no longer attracted.
This only distinguishes the two arguments on the assumption that the gay man was NOT initially attracted. I assume you see the logical connection

>>69028422
read above for reply dude

>>69028414
>There is no difference between a post-op trans woman and a cis woman

Damn is that really what you think? If that were true then you would be right.

But I really think that isn't true. In fact I think it obviously isn't true. That would be very comforting for trans people but I mean... how could you really think this?

If you are saying that there is no *significant* difference between ciswomen and post-op trans-women, then I guess that would just be a value judgment about what is and what isn't consequential. But I don't see how you can argue the difference is not significant when so many people think the difference is significant, without dogmatically assuming that all those people are just wrong or prejudiced.

>>69028414
>sex and gender aren't the same thing dumbass.
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL
You are the dumbass if you believe that.
They are literally synonyms.
The only reason you'd believe that is if you were the deluded individual trying to justify their mental problem! Ha!

>>69028450
Post it. Your dick that is.

>>69028414
>The difference is that cis women don't have to say "I'm a cis woman" for a gay man not to be attracted to them, whilst a straight man has to be told that a trans woman is a trans woman to suddenly be turned off of them.

so you really do think gay men are just automatically not attracted to women? even if they don't know the person is a woman?

this is good, I think we really boiled this down to exactly what we disagree about.

I don't have a problem with people saying
"I'm a man who lives like, looks like and wishes they were a woman." That's fine.

I DO however, have a problem with someone saying they ARE a woman when they simply, factually are NOT.

You would not be judged so much if you simply said what YOU ARE rather than what you WANT TO BE.

>>69028476
>has no argument
>says the same thing 4 times in a row pretending that it is an argument
ok mate

>>69028507
or because ur dick is smaller than mine despite me being a girl, ya beta.

>>69028508
I once accidentally sent a nude, never again.

>>69028529
A gay man can see a naked woman and not be sexually attracted, if he were to be sexually attracted, he would not be gay.

A prejudiced straight man can see a naked post-op trans woman, be sexually attracted, then be told the woman is trans and stop himself from being attracted due to thinking it is gay.

Are those two situations the same situation?

>>69025254
That is a straw man.

She is twisting the person words to attack this alternate thing he doenst said
the first part tell
"she used to be a man"
the guy would say "he is a man"

File: cishetscum.jpg (21KB, 480x349px) Image search: [Google]

21KB, 480x349px

>>69028618
I don't have a problem with you sitting there typing drivel to try and get attention, I also don't have a problem with you clearly lacking attention and so driving up the 3dgel0rd memes to get more attention, but I do have a problem with you randomly using capitalisation as if it doesn't make your words into anagrams.

>>I DO (dig intestines) however
>>they ARE (aren't really expecting) a woman
>>are NOT(never over Timbs).
>>what YOU (you own understates) ARE (all revealed, Entwistle)
>> you WANT (were a Nigerian treasurer) TO (this's over) BE (become emailscammer?).

>>69028774
Oooh look at you, I make perfectly valid points, you don't dispute them but instead try to insult me personally.

Ha ha ha, typical trans.

You're fundamentally wrong, you'll NEVER be right.

That is why your retorts can only be personal attacks instead of LOGICAL SOUND ARGUMENTS.

Enjoy my CAPS again. SHIT STAIN.

>>69028072
I actually research shit instead of swallowing bluepills from the lamestream media

>>69028675
(pt 1)
For the first comment: I did not just repeat myself. I said huh, so this is what we disagree about. You know I was just about to post about how I was mad at first but this ended up being a good discussion, but you insist on making glib condescending remarks at every opportunity.

I also made an argument. My argument was: Lots of people think there is a significant difference between trans women and cis women. I don't see what you can say about those people apart from just asserting that they are prejudiced. That is a weak argument, more suggestive than anything; but I am not just repeating myself.

>>69028814
>you'll NEVER (need endless variations of Entwistle's readings)
>>LOGICAL (leaning over girls is called anal lingus) SOUND (seriously over-under never dick) ARGUMENTS (anal rhetoric guises unintended malformations of elongated nostrils and tongues, seriously)
>>CAPS (capornical agitation peeves sinners) again
>>SHIT (salivic heteronormative inequal tongues) STAIN (spill tar all in nails).

>>69028675
>>69028880
(pt 2 --this must have been just barely too long)

As for the last comment, I think we are getting down to brass tacks. I am willing to grant that a gay man is automatically not attracted to a naked woman, but a straight man is not automatically turned off by the SIGHT of a trans-woman. But here's what I do think: some straight men are AUTOMATICALLY turned off by the THOUGHT that a woman is trans. As in, you tell him you're trans and he is automatically turned off. Why does it matter that it was the sight of the woman that turned off the gay man, but it took a thought to turn off the straight man? And I don't think it is safe to assume that you have to not be attracted 'because you think it's gay.' That is just to assume prejudice, basically. I want you to tell me why I can't viscerally respond to the thought that you used to be a man by not being attracted to you; or if you do think I can have that visceral response, I want you to tell me why that visceral response should be unlearned, while the gay man's visceral response to the woman's body shouldn't be unlearned. On this assumption both would just be visceral responses, it's just that one is a response to sight, and the other is a response to a thought; what is the difference? And don't just say we have freedom over our thought but not over the nerves connecting eye to crotch. This is not about the thought that you used to be a man; this is about my AUTOMATIC (I claim) response to that thought.

So in summary, you either have to explain why I can't have a visceral response to my thoughts, or else you have to tell me why that response should be unlearned when other responses shouldn't

>>69028880
you literally said
>>"damn is that what you think"
>>"that isn't true"
>>"it obviously isn't true"
>>"how could you really think this?"
>>"I don't see how you can argue"

The same thing, over and over, without making a statement about what is actually different. Versus my argument which was:
>>" They have breasts and a vagina, little to no body hair, larger hips than shoulders, and softer skin and thicker head hair."

hence not different.

All trans people are obviously gay and can't come to terms with their inner shame so they try to justify being homosexual by saying they are the opposite gender and therefore "straight".

Truly twisted.

>>69028910
so you admit that
>>THOUGHT
is the main thing? That the entire response is based on a thought process?

Since the response is to be unattracted where once they were attracted, I'd say its a negative response.

Since the response is specifically to the fact that a person is trans, and nothing else, I'd say its a response targetted at being trans.

Since it is negative and targetted at being trans, I'd say its a prejudiced response against trans people.

>>69028999
but i like girls

>>69028950
I prefaced those with 'I think.' Every. Single. One. So I was expressing that I disagree, not asserting that you are wrong. You may do well to master that distinction. Hard to carry on a discussion without it.

>>69028999
Sure, except that I like woman and by transitioning I will be seen as a lesbian.

>>69029044
Sorry mate, doesn't stop your argument from not existing.

Nor does it detract from the fact that you said the same thing a good 5 times and pretended it was a proper response.

>>69029045
>>69029022

Do you think you are gay or not?

>>69029076
Yes, I identify as a woman and am sexually attracted to women.

>>69029101
So you have changed gender to be gay?
If you had stayed male you could be with straight women, why did you have to change your gender to get with women?

>>69029161
it doesn't have anything to do with that

>>69029008
so any negative response to the fact that you are trans is prejudiced? what if i was deeply religious, and I thought that I would be damned if I had sex with you? You can even imagine I say I love you, I want to be with you, but I can't jeopardize my immortal soul....

my intuition is that such a person is wrong and misguided, but not prejudice. for me you need to actually have hate in your heart. I can prefer cisgendered sexual partners without having hate in my heart directed at trans people.

it'd be one thing if I preferred to *hire* cis people, or preferred having cis people watch my kids or whatever. but I feel like (note the opinion words) your sexual preferences are deeply personal and you should essentially be able to have whatever preferences you want. I think we disagree about that above all. You appear to think that it is wrong and prejudiced for me to only be sexually interested in cis people, and I think that I can be sexually interested in whatever narrow group I please, because I think people have absolute prerogative over their sexual preferences. My opinion is that you can criticize people for their hiring practice, but ultimately you have no right to criticize other people for who they are attracted to: it is absolutely their prerogative.

I can't give knock-down arguments to support this opinion, but one thing I have been trying to press on is the air of hypocrisy that comes with thinking I can be criticized as prejudiced for my sexual preferences. A major social force for good has been the growing acceptance of the fact that people should be free to practice sexuality as they see fit. I believe that asserting that anyone who is attracted to cis women but not trans women is in danger of undermining our right to practice sexuality as we see fit, and I think that is a huge problem. I have also made appeals to the fact that you are a queer person, thinking that surely you must also value this change in attitude and want to preserve it

>>69029215
You are suggesting you are changing gender for yourself?

If changing gender hadn't nothing to do with other peoples perception of you then why do you care so much?

>>69029062
Yes, you are quite right to point out that no argument exists in a post in which I was simply stating my opinion rather than giving an argument. That is quite acute and I will note in my minutes for this discussion.

If you think, on the other hand, that my posts in general have not contained argument I would counter that I have actually bee writing very carefully, even comically carefully considering we are on 4chan. Not all of my arguments are airtight, but I have raised a lot of concerns that should at least make you worry about your position. The most powerful of those worries, I think, is restated here: >>69029247

>>69029247
>I believe that asserting that anyone who is attracted to cis women but not trans women is in danger of undermining our right to practice sexuality as we see fit, and I think that is a huge problem.
is supposed to read:
>I believe that asserting that anyone who is attracted to cis women but not trans women must be prejudiced is in danger of undermining our right to practice sexuality as we see fit, and I think that is a huge problem.

Does a girl with a dick want to use their dick sexually or only take it up the rear end?

I hope they realize the irony in being a "girl" if they fuck women with their penis.

>>69029161
it's not about getting girls, it's about being happy with myself dude.

>>69029247
Yeah that's kinda the point of prejudice. Religious prejudice is still prejudice.
Prejudice is not a reason to shame people, it's a reason to teach people.

>>69029288
Cool that we agree on the fact that you have nothing of any note to say in the whole "trans women are different from cis women!!!11" thing.

>>69029387
I realise the irony, and honestly to all cis men: try taking it up the ass, its pretty good.

>>69029423
Do you believe the only reason more men don't take it up the ass is because it's harder to do so in a straight relationship? Do you think that it is enjoyable regardless of sexuality?

>>69029101
so I need to go, but in case you want to know these are the posts I wrote.

>>69025464
>>69025589
>>69025872
>>69025932
>>69026109
>>69026302
>>69026420
>>69026546
>>69026700
>>69026787
>>69026853
>>69026943
>>69027127
>>69027171
>>69027305
>>69027380
>>69027494
>>69027572
>>69027641
>>69027886
>>69028041
>>69028304
>>69028476
>>69028529
>>69028880
>>69028910
>>69029044
>>69029247
>>69029288
>>69029324
and some others (yes it is ridiculous how long i kept this up)

Also I am sorry so many people in this thread have been saying ridiculous, ignorant and actually prejudiced things. Kind of funny that that was going on the whole time we were having what I think was really a decent debate. perhaps that made it hard to not get emotional about our argument too.

>>69029491
I think there's a stigma attached to taking vs giving, it's silly tho because we all know that femdoms are better than mendoms, so taking it up the ass is not demasculising.

And yeah, it defo is good no matter ur sexuality, I'm not sexually attracted to dicks, but I like it up the ass nonetheless, its much appreciated when a femdom lesbo has a strapon for me.

>>69029531
cool talking with u buddy, won't be keeping this name outside of here so I'll just see you around. Have a good one.

>>69029533
At the base of it, the fact that prior to sex toys, homosexuals were the only ones who knew the pleasure of a dick in their ass is what makes people associate it with being gay.

With these connotations why is it not considered a gay allusion if a man gives anal to a woman?

>>69029423
okay you took nothing away from this discussion.

My point about why transwomen are different from cis women: your point is really about whether there are *significant* differences. I counter by saying that whether a difference is significant is a value judgment, and you have to claim that I am wrong to think the fact that you are trans is significant; but if you do claim that, you undermine my right to decide sexual preferences for myself, which is a big problem.

A point about prejudice: I don't think I described a case of religious prejudice. Religious prejudice would be something like: My religion says people like you are bad, and I believe it. That contrasts with: I think you are good, but my religion will punish me for having sex with you. In that case I don't think you are bad, I just have a crazy belief that I will be punished for fucking you. I dont think that is prejudice; there is no hate in such a person's heart.

A final point: I think my ability to practice sexuality as I please overrules concerns about prejudice. I think sexuality is special in that it is something other people have no right to criticize. That includes criticizing it as prejudice. I think we need to shield sexuality from criticism to some degree, in order to preserve the progress we have made.

I really regret having wasted so much time writing out detailed thorough responses. You don't even read carefully, you just assert that I made no argument.

>>69029552
idk if this post was sarcastic but if not it is hard to reconcile with
>>69029423

okay really I'm leaving now. best wishes Grill, no sarcasm

>>69025464
>1. sex and gender are distinct: sex is biological, and gender is a social construct.
Stopped reading right there. Sex and gender have always been synonyms, the idea that there's a distinction was invented by university "intellectuals" to justify their insane theories.

>>69027390
...just let them kill themselves

File: pschunk.jpg (518KB, 1198x1200px) Image search: [Google]

518KB, 1198x1200px

>>69029613
its to do with male dominance over women, rather than the shape of the object.

>>69029635
Religious prejudice is being prejudicial based on religion, IE judging that a person is a sinful object simply based on religious texts.

The rest of what you said is worth nothing

>>69029659
it's not sarcastic, adios.

alright that's me done too

Your Local Grill (w/ a dick) out

[musical side note, any suggestions for this pschunk (psychpunk) playlist? - pic related]

>>69028072
It's literally facts. You can feel free disagree with his conclusion, but it's simply fact what John Money did and George Soros does.

>>69029928
its literally facts

>>69029928
it's literally facts

>>69025254
id rather trumps america than tumblr invade any further into reality

this shit has to be stopped, fucking retards raising their kids gender neutral and making children have sex changes its all fucked up