was he the greatest american composer?

For rock? Yes, without any doubt, but in general he have to compete against guys like Ellington and Mingus so he lose

>>68583170
There are no greatest in music. It's not a competiton and I think the notion of best or the greatest is a hypothetical situtation. Check out his cover of Ravel's Bolero. It's just beautiful.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQ1JamXxd8g

>>68583247
Man I don't like being that guy, but Ravel's bolero is so boring and lackluster, did you ever listen to his quartet, piano concert or mother goose?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5U7osEigQZM

Bolero is only good for people getting into classical music and want to learn how each isntrument sound like ebcaeuse the way they enter the score

He was the foremost absurdist and visionary in popular music as far as I've ever heard at least. How he married ordinary pop styles to the weirdest possible shit was very cool, I'm only sad I'm too young to have seen his shows, where he'd spontaneously have the whole bang change styles and time signatures with a simple twirl of his hand. His biography was very illuminating.

For example, he'd twirl one invisible dreadlock while they were playing to mean switch to reggae. Two twirls meant double time aka ska style. For WHATEVER SONG THEY WERE PLAYING!

>>68583212

and Ellington and Mingus have to compete with men like Philip Glass, Steve Reich and John Cage so they majorly lose.

>>68583288
I was just providing an example. I haven't listened to his live albums, especially ones featuring cover songs. I just have to. It's too good to miss out on.

>>68583346
good namedropping, but those guys don't hold a candle to any european compositor in their own genre, while Ellington and Mingus made original and genre changing music

>>68583346
>goes on rym once

>>68583288
>Man I don't like being that guy, but Ravel's bolero is so boring and lackluster, did you ever listen to his quartet, piano concert or mother goose?
I'm lost for words. This is just glorious. Thank you!

>>68583408
this

>>68583408

okay but we are talking about American composers, not European composers.

Glass, Reich and Cage are better American composers than Ellington and Mingus. that's what I'm saying.

also I'm not sure how I'm "namedropping" just by replying to someone. it's not like the composers I "namedropped" are even less well known. anyone with even a passing interest in classical music knows who those three are.

He was without a doubt the greatest rock artist so far.
He was one of the greatest composers ever.

>>68583408
Frank Zappa > Mingus > Ellington

>>68583170
Not really, even if you restrict things to rock music. Brian Wilson wins in that regard. But he certainly was the most prolific and varied.

>>68583706
I'd have to disagree. He was in a boy band. I'm not saying that all pop music is inherently bad, but you're not really expecting another ''Rite of spring'' from a boy band.

>>68583735
>He was in a boy band.

Bye.

>>68583756
Bye, bye!

>>68583756
He was

>>68583706
Rofl

>>68583706
I don't think it's Zap either but it's definitely not Brian

Greatest? Not quite.
Good at what he did? Definitely!

>>68583803
>band writes their own material
>plays their own instruments
>determines their appearance and style
>can perform their studio material live
>boy band

Just cuz they're a group of cute dudes? Get out, my man.

>>68583837
>Just cuz they're a group of cute dudes? Get out, my man.
I think the problem lies in the genre of music that they played. And that's what I think people object to. If you're making making money from your looks, while playing the most radio friendly type of music - it's not exactly the way of creating timeless classics.

nope

>>68583926
And yet they did. Funny how that works.

>>68583986
Literally name two songs

>>68583997
Come on, dude.

>>68583986
>And yet they did. Funny how that works.
I'm sure that the majority of people know Beethoven's 9th for example, but I doubt that many people have heard of The Beach Boys and are able to recognize their songs anywhere and anytime.

>>68583837
>>>68583803
>>band writes their own material
No, Brian did
>>plays their own instruments
They didn't. They recruited the something Crew (I don't remember their name).
>>determines their appearance and style
Determined by Brian
>>can perform their studio material live
So does every boy band

Get out.

>>68584007
Exactly

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>>68583170
>Frank "Edgelord" Zappa
>greatest american composer
Oh boy, this kind of thread

>>68584033
>I doubt that many people have heard of The Beach Boys and are able to recognize their songs anywhere and anytime.

>artist isn't as popular as fucking beethoven
>can't be considered "timeless"

So, what, have only like a half dozen artists in the history of music made "timeless" music in your eyes?

>No, Brian did

From '67 to the end of their studio career they all wrote songs. To varying degrees of quality, but they all wrote songs.

>They didn't. They recruited the something Crew (I don't remember their name).

Only for their material from '65 (and some of '64) to '67. Everything else is either them or one-off session musicians.

>Determined by Brian

Brian caring about touring in fucking 1965, guy. He couldn't care less about their look or style.

>>68584070
You quoted the wrong guy. Here's the one this is directed to: >>68584038

>>68584064
(You)

>>68584114
Oops. I meant to quote both of them. Thanks.

charles Ives

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>>68583408
>>68583212
Please don't forget to mention pic related

One of the greatest for sure.

No one can deny his artistry and composing ability.

I love Zappa and all but man he could sabotage his own music like no other.

Also, he was kind of a dick.

>>68584546
>I love Zappa and all but man he could sabotage his own music like no other.
Sadly, this is true. Burnt Weeny Sandwich is one of his best albums, but he decided to mess it up right at the end by adding the song Valarie.
>Also, he was kind of a dick.
He's cynical and he's explained why. He wasn't very nice per se in this interview, but you can understand why. They're asking him about Edgard Varese and if he could become a pop star in a disco of all places. It's really not hard to understand why he answers the questions the way he did in that particular interview.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpcvJiZUbzI

>>68583170
He was absolutely a musical genius. One of the best.

It's a shame he squandered his talent by only making awkward, quirky comedy rock.

>>68584621
>stop laughing

>>68583170
Nah, Ives was much much better

>>68584784
>It's a shame he squandered his talent by only making awkward, quirky comedy rock.
I wouldn't say that the squandered his talent. And I have to agree, his humor is a little too much sometimes. He's also written classical music and one of my favorite albums is Burnt Weeny Sandwich. It's a combination of classical music and rock music and it's so unique, so fresh, so beautiful until the very last song of the album. Apart from all of that, here are some of the most beautiful pieces of music he's written:
https://youtu.be/qi37ziNab_g
https://youtu.be/B9DqykUsqRY
https://youtu.be/L5gnubhlgF0
https://youtu.be/FzZohsi0nXc

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Radio head is

Can someone guide me on how to get into Zappa?

I've already listened to the first Mothers of Invention albums, and while comedy rock didn't appeal to me much at first, I'm willing to go beyond and find all of his hidden gems. I see you guys commenting on how he had some other unique albums.

>>68584784
this.

he basically spent the entire 70s and 80s making buttrock songs about how icky gay people are LOL

>>68586727

We're Only In It For the Money -> Uncle Meat -> Hot Rats -> Waka/Jawaka -> Apostrophe (') -> Läther -> The Yellow Shark

Find something you like and dig around the same time period for more.

I personally think he had two really great periods - the early Mothers stuff from roughly Freak Out! to Weasels Ripped My Flesh and then the early-to-mid-70's from Waka/Jawaka to Zoot Allures.

The Mothers period has a cool mix of roughness and character combined with clever and relatively ambitious composing while in the early 70's he finally had musicians to work with who could keep up with the musical ideas.

>>68586727
depends on what's your cup of tea
I've also listened to freak out first, but it was only after hot rats that I've really got into Zappa

>>68586727
Listen to Hot Rats.

>>68586904
Lather is probably not a good starting point. Some great songs there and a whole lot of meh.

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>>68586727
I'll post 2 flowcharts. I'd say that his most unique albums are: Hot Rats, Burnt Weeny Sandwich, The Grand Wazoo, Waka/Jawaka and finally The Best Band You Never Heard in Your Life, which features his covers of classical songs.

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>>68586933

>>68583170
Ives
Stravinsky
Cage

Shame he died in his 50s, from such an easily preventable disease too.
Imagine what he could have been creating with today's technology.

>>68586926

well, Läther is a big hunk of stuff, but I personally prefer it to the contractual obligation albums that had most of the same music originally or Sheik Yerbouti or Joe's Garage that I guess are the real alternatives - they are both also lengthy albums in their own right (and no more consistent I'd say than Läther)

>>68586904
>>68586915
>>68586926
>>68586933
Well, that was even more than I expected. I started with his first three albums with the Mothers and they weren't my cup of tea. Hot Rats on the other hand was a very nice surprise, I'd like to take that direction and explore more of his different periods. I will give the Mothers another try, though.

The charts are very helpful, too. Thank you all.

>>68583288
forgetting miroirs and gaspard my dude

dunno about best composer, especially when hes competing with some serious names in classical

>>68587704

the nice thing about "greatest" means that you can interpret it in many ways

certainly Zappa was foremost a composer and by working in unusual idioms for people with composer ambitions he did manage to reach a lot of people and be very influential

so I think this is really a question of what you think "greatest composer" means