How do I judge a quality of an improvised solo?

>Did I like it?
>yes -> it's good
>no -> it's bad

I listen to a lot of Dead and a lot of Jazz but I honestly can't really tell what makes one solo better than another. Some people are great and can break it down every aspect of it though.

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The pleb way
>if it makes you feel good

The patrician way
>if a council of musical academic elders give their approval on it

>>68267335
Does /mu/ count as a council of musical academic elders?

>>68267207
this, to some extent but I wouldn't go so far as saying that because you didn't like a solo that "it's bad."

The most important thing is your overall reaction to a solo, which will be subjective, but the real trick is pointing out the objective qualities of the solo that led to your subjective opinion of the solo.

When it comes to jazz I think a lot of the time this all comes down to the soloist's ability to use structure and shape in a personal way. Literally anybody can improvise a solo, but what makes a solo "good" is being able to use some kind of structure to create a "story" that has a definite and describable shape.

>>68267391
sure why not?

>>68266943
it's mostly contextual

the more you know of the genre, the more shit you can pick up and appreciate

but in any case it comes down to the feeling, is there an emotional arc to it, are the dynamics and notes taking you on a journey

the most important thing for any listener is - did that make sense/blow your mind/make you feel? The solo was good if it took you on a journey of some sort - most of the expertise in analysis from people who know more shit is going to be *why* it worked.

A good solo feels right - that's all there's to it - could be a lot of exciting passages not hinted by the head, could be Miles Davis blowing one angry, piercing long note. If it works, it works.

The whole genre of free jazz is actually built on that idea - you can have a solo that just plays on dynamics and rhythms and still feels right.

It's all about the feel.

>improvised

if it's entirely improvised it's probably shit. even people known for their improvisation skills don't actually make shit up as they go along, that would be stupid, most of it is just reusing shit they've probably practiced a million times yet haven't formally made public so it only seems like they made it up. A purely improvised solo would sound like garbage 99% of the time

>>68267395
Oh and I forgot to mention one other thing-

The reason that it's foolish to assume that if you don't like a solo "it's bad" is because I'm sure almost every jazz fan has changed their mind about some solo or album at some point.

You listen to something in one frame of mind and can't understand it, or weren't listening closely enough to follow it. Then a while later you listen to it again and either because of a different frame of mind while listening, or because of more experience listening, you are able to appreciate the details of the solo that you had missed before. The music didn't change, your perception of it changed.

If this hasn't happened to you, then you haven't listened to enough jazz.

>>68267497
anyone will play licks and such, but the pace of the notes - the rhythm - the feeling, that will always be affected directly by the music that came before

it's mostly intuitive and because of that it is also very real - you can plan your notes and scales, but there will still be magic of the moment in real improvisation

understanding free jazz begins with realizing that every human being is just repeating patterns and trying to adapt and it is indeed because of that why free improvisation and free jazz is beautiful - you just can't take the human out of playing an instrument and the less rules the player is consciously following, the more personal the expression gets - I personally feel very much that the very incapability of humans to perfectly randomize is what makes free improvisation a great artform

>>68267553
right on, I personally find jazz to be incredibly compelling because of it's abstract nature

shit just works on so many different levels often - and not just by random chance

How do I get better at talking about the specific things of solos? Not like theory stuff necessarily but just like talking about the parts of solos that I liked or didn't like?

>>68267863
this

when i feel like writing a review about some jazz record, I don't know how to put into words the things I felt while listening to it, not as easily as I would do with a rock record. I don't know shit about music theory, that's one of the reasons, but there are some quality reviews that almost never go into the technical stuff to explain why they do or don't like a particular album.

>>68267863
>>68268033
The best way is to read other people's opinions/reviews about whatever you happen to be listening to and then to simply decide whether you agree or disagree with them. If you agree, read how they described the music and think about other music that you would describe in a similar way. If you disagree, try to get to the root of why you disagree with them and how you would verbalize your disagreement.

If you're looking for jazz reviews to disagree with, check out my RYM. I'm sure you'll disagree with at least some of my thoughts on these albums.
https://rateyourmusic.com/~jazzthreadguy

>>68267863
it's really just pattern recognition

people don't play random notes (or you can just say they play random notes) and music theory expertise and playing expertise really gives you the tools to recognize common patterns and talk about them

as an example from jazz, one thing Thelonious Monk used to do a whole lot on piano that's easy to identify is that he would play whole note scales and whole note runs - always two steps between the notes, these are really easy to play on the piano as they alternate between black and white keys so that you can always have one hand playing blacks and one playing whites for example

also since it's so regular, there are only two different whole note runs you can play - it's always going to sound a little "in" and a little "out" - very clever trick for creating a recognizable pattern that will fit with anything you're playing always being a little familiar and a little adventurous

watch this for an example of how it sounds https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIiP7s0BbCU and note that you can play both the two possible whole note scales on piano in a really easy way, you play either the 2-group of blacks and whites otherwise, or the 3-group of blacks and whites otherwise - dead easy to learn, cool sound, fits in many things - in any traditional scale you can just throw either one in and it will be a cool thing

Thelonious Monk wasn't a magician, just a smart pianist - some of the "exotic" stuff is actually just stuff that's real easy to play and sounds cool!

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>>68268208
ohay jtg

just saw Vijay Iyer's trio tonight at the new club space here from stage-side seats from about 4 meters away from Vijay

I've now seen his trio 3 times here in Finland in the past 3 years - always with a different drummer. This time it was Justin Brown and he was just awesome - wilder than the regular Marcus Gilmore, but not as wild as Tyshawn Shorey was - the tune Break Stuff was incredible though with Iyer and Crump playing like two bars before Brown just took over - really great mix of electronic music influence with human feel, not as precise and versatile as Gilmore, but more than enough personality to compensate.

Great gig - having seen him so often in a brief period, I think Iyer is really a master of building up longer arcs in sets - he tends to do two arcs of compositions stitched together per set with some monologue in between, very impressive in how every gig I've seen they've been different but always made sense with his recorded material - certainly one of the best group leaders in stiching multiple tracks together to make very satisfactory arcs.

>>68268208
I appreciate your reply. I'm gonna read some of your reviews to see how you'd describe your impressions of an album. Glad you covered Andrew's Judgment!. Easily one of my favorite 60s records.

>>68268611
oh fugg that would be pretty cool to see them in an intimate venue like that. I'm pretty sure I saw Justin Brown filling in for Marcus Gilmore when I saw Mark Turner's quartet a few years ago. I remember being disappointed that Gilmore wasn't there, but I think I was pretty impressed with Justin Brown. I haven't heard him on many records though. I'd really like to see Tyshawn Sorey though... I've heard him on quite a few records recently. Gerald Cleaver is the other drummer who's got a similar kind of thing going on as all these guys.. I don't think I've seen him live either.

I like the idea of having the pieces flow into each other like that. Wish more artists would do that sort of thing. I've never been quite as into Iyer's records as I have been with some other players but I'd definitely love to see him live. I love it when you're listening to a tune and they start to go in a different direction with it and all of the sudden you realize they're playing a different tune from the record, or a standard or something.

>>68268208
Hmmh. Somewhat surprised you rate Hemphill's Dogon A.D. as highly as 4.5 . I had his original and Vijay's version of the title track in my recent "same tune" /blindfold/ for the longest time but then I thought no regular would appreciate that monotonous bliss and have the stamina to listen to two long repetitive jams on that note.

I've been thinking of starting rating albums on RYM, but
a) i've flip-flopped heavily on a ton of albums over the years and I don't feel like monitoring old ratings when I listen to more of something or whatever
b) any album that I would ever feel like rating should get 4-5 stars compared to music in general on general merit - like there is such a vast number of mediocre shit albums I can't even listen through, so I can't even figure out a personal scale that would feel good - hence why I don't rate stuff on blindfolds either

>>68267290
i'm surprised you feel that way. what about the dead/jazz is interesting to you?

>>68267497
lmao that's not true at all man

>>68268835
I think Iyer is a lot better live than on albums - I don't think any of his albums have that satisfying "LP-side length arc" thing that he appears to do live

I saw Justin Brown earlier live in a medium indoor venue with Ambrose Akinmusire and he was really killing it on solos, then I saw him and Akinmusire some months later in a late evening set in a cool outdoor environment apparently jet lagged and some delayed flights on them and the whole band was just cold and miserable with no fire - I felt like taking them all out for some coffee and whisky and then trying the jazz thing again after warming up a little, certainly not the best gig for anyone involved.

Really exciting and dynamic soloist in any case - certainly close to the top of drummers I've seen live in recent years.

>>68269004
>Somewhat surprised you rate Hemphill's Dogon A.D. as highly as 4.5
I'm as surprised as you are. Honestly I went into that album expecting to dislike it but I just love that really intricate sense of interaction that they have. Actually I've been meaning to re-listen to that forever and I haven't gotten around to it. There's just so much to listen to.

>i've flip-flopped heavily on a ton of albums over the years
I'm certain I'll do quite a bit of flip flopping but I don't really have a problem with it.

>any album that I would ever feel like rating should get 4-5 stars compared to music in general on general merit
I have this problem too where there's so much music that music that I know I'm going to like that it's sometimes hard to sit down and listen to a whole album that is generally mediocre. Then again, I like to force myself to do that sometimes because I think it makes me appreciate the really special music even more. Plus sometimes you discover that one track or solo that really sticks with you on an otherwise very bland album.

>>68269143
It's definitely easier to really appreciate drumming when you see them live. Maybe more than any other instrument you can really tell when a drummer is having an absolute blast playing.

I couple years ago I saw Jeff Watts playing with Ravi Coltrane at the Village Vanguard and I've always loved his drumming but I have a whole new appreciation after seeing him live. He gets this big, goofy smile on his face and just sort of stares off into space and you can see every emotional shift in the music in his face. It was like watching a small child seeing fireworks for the first time.

>>68268406
>tfw Monk is one of the only jazz players that I actually like

>>68267391
don't question me ever again