Daybreaker

>>30135975
starlight.
celestias nightmare mode will be blackhole themed.

Nyx's

>>30135975
It was Starlight projecting her nightmare onto Celestia.

>>30135975
>her pupils look like candle flames
Took me awhile to notice.

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>>30135987
>>30136028
But if it was Starlight's, how come Daybreaker just mostly addressed Celestia?

She didn't even acknowledge Starlight. Everything pertained to Celestia and her sister, Luna.
And if it was just Starlight's nightmare, where would the idea of Daybreaker even come from? It's not like Ponies have heard of that form or have seen it.

What's more, if it was just Starlight's, wouldn't it have been no issue for Celestia to banish Daybreaker, considering it was just Starlight's fears and not hers, and she didn't believe the stuff Daybreaker was saying?

>>30135975
Started as Starlights but became Celestia's as she became overwhelmed plus it's been shown in "do princesses dream of magic sheep" that it's possible for ponies to share dreams.

so it's must be also possible for nightmares to be shared too.

>>30136486
The dream realm is created by our thoughts, Starlight was the source of the dream, but if somebody like Celestia were to enter it, her thoughts can influence what goes on in there. It was Starlight's dream, but Celestia's subconsciousness still influenced the creation of Daybreaker.

>>30136800
So it was sort of a mix, where Celestia's fears came through too?

>>30137028
Precisely. Starlight Glimmer dreamed of Nightmare Moon coming back since that's what happened last time the two sisters bickered, but Daybreaker was because of Celestia entering into the dream.

>>30135975
She represents Celestia's repressed sexuality.

>>30135975
Maybe not specifically in this instance, but surely Celestia has to have at least once worried she could go down the same route?

>>30135975
Can I stroke her mane or do I get burnt?

>>30137103
It would be extremely painful

>>30137051

Or gonorrhea.

>>30137050
I can work with that.
You think Celestia really had fears of Daybreaker though?
And that Luna's words and vote of confidence helped ease those fears, to the point of letting her banish them?

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>>30135975
One line I'm not getting is when Luna says

>You can defeat Nightbreaker if you believe in your strength, like I do

What strength is that pertaining to?

>>30137425
Daybreaker is not necessarily evil but it's an unwanted part of Celestia's psyche. It's what Celestia would be if she didn't care about anything and just ruled over the kingdom without any limitation.

Specifically how she says she wished she "destroyed" Nightmare Moon. Doing so would have spared Equestria from Nightmare Moon's reign as did sending her to the moon but it does so with no consideration for Luna.

In short, compassion and love are what hold back Celestia's full power.

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>>30137453
>but it's an unwanted part of Celestia's psyche
Yeah maybe I phrased it wrong but this is what I meant to ask. As in, you think Daybreaker really was Celestia's fears, as in, part of her psyche? It seemed an extreme, one that we've never really seen the side of. She refuted all of Daybreakers points too, with meaning rather than "n..no you're wrong".

What do you think caused the trigger to Celestia's psyche that made Daybreaker manifest? Just NMM appearing seems a bit much for it, considering she's defeated her before no?

>>30137436
FREIND SHIT OF MAGIC

>>30137596
I'm thinking it might have spawned after she sent Nightmare Moon to the moon. At that moment she started wondering if she had gone too far and this entity seeded itself in her consciousness.

It's like the Tantabus to Luna. A magically generated nightmare that exists to warn Celestia of the dangers of living without empathy or reserve.

>>30137604
Friendship isn't what solved the issue here

>>30137619
>seeded itself in her consciousness.
And manifested itself in the dream realm specifically because it was a Nightmare, or because the dream realm manifests any doubts into reality?

>>30137624
>Luna apologizes and gives Celestia the willpower to dispel the nightmare

Sounds like it to me.

>>30137436
Inner strength, belief in oneself, willpower...how many more times do you need it spelled out for you?

>>30137633
Neither, it was Celestia entering Starlight's dream that caused it. Celestia being present changed Starlight's dream by injecting her own personality into Starlight's mind. Starlight's own dream world didn't have a dark entity to represent Celestia until Celestia's spell penetrated it.

It's like a melding of minds. Presumably to communicate with the dream spell, the caster has to travel within their own subconscious to meet with the subject. It pulled the Daybreaker entity into Starlight's dream in that process.

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>>30135975
It's celestia repressed feeling towards King Sombra.

All she needs it's him and his dick.

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>>30136007

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>>30137683
>Starlight's own dream world didn't have a dark entity to represent Celestia until Celestia's spell penetrated it.
So without Celestia entering the world, you think Starlight's nightmare would have only consisted of Nightmare Moon, since she was unaware of Daybreaker?

I can see that. Celestia seemed to be really taken aback by the presence of Daybreaker and like I said Daybreaker only interacted with her. It's just interesting though because a lot of people seem to think it was just Starlight's dream, or just Celestia's, and I can't really make sense of that line of thinking.

The mix of them though seems to make sense. With Nightmare Moon being present in Starlight's nightmare as a worst case scenario, but Celestia being present bringing out her worst case scenario. I suppose in a way it's almost like a battle of Celestia's nightmare vs Glimmers nightmare.

It's interesting to think of Celestia having her own sort of Tantibus which she needed to repel in a similar manner, mostly through self belief and confidence, as well as the bond with her sister realising they need each other so much. It's not something we've seen much of at all

>>30137789
>So without Celestia entering the world, you think Starlight's nightmare would have only consisted of Nightmare Moon, since she was unaware of Daybreaker?

Probably, since everyone knows the story of the Mare in the Moon. She thought Celestia's lack of regard for her sister would just drive Luna to become Nightmare Moon again. She never thought that there could also be something lurking behind Celestia as well and that the disrespect Celestia feels could be fueling something too.

>>30137789
>See something I like
>Look at the price tag
>Walk away while still having interest
Me all the time.

>>30137828
Kind of weird to think it was actually Celestia who had those repressed fears, she's always seemed so calm and at peace

>>30138421
Which was kind of the point of this episode. Her sister assumes her life is nothing but attention and luxury while she works all night with no appreciation when in reality Celestia has to keep up a very firm facade.

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sim

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i'm so bealtiful

Daybreaker seems like another one of those things like Bow and Windy that won't reach its inspirational zenith until the episode airs in the US. I've seen more fan content of Dash's parents this weekend than when the episode was aired early.

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>>30138430
That's... very true. Huh.

>>30135975
If we count EqG, then we've seen every alicorn go evil except Cadance. If she ever shows up I hope they name her Heartbreaker.

>>30138563
>If we count EqG

Guaranteed way to incite lots of "RRRRRRRREEE" and other assorted retardation.

>>30137638
It was more about removing self doubt and overcoming fears

>>30135975
Someone posted this in another thread. I think it sums it up


Luna's magic affects dreams, which is why she battles nightmares. At some point of Celestia arriving to GlimGlam's dream, Daybreaker manifested and started to feed off Celestia's fears.

With Celestia's appearance, GlimGlam thought of Nightmare Moon, so Nightmare Moon appeared. I would guess that Daybreaker appeared, because both Celestia and GlimGlam feared she would come too. Celestia was surprised by it, but Daybreaker immediately started to talk with Celestia, so she was more of Celestia's nightmare, rather than GlimGlam's. Anycase, Celestia feared her more.

Just looking it from the writing aspect, Daybreaker shifted the focus from GlimGlam to Celestia and then it became Celestia's battle against her self-doubt.

>>30136131
Heh, didn't notice that either

So what answer did you lads come to?

>>30138563
Haven't seen evil alicorn twighlight unless you count that time during the first pinky sense episode before twighlight was an alicorn.

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Whats the name of ship for these 2? Is there one yet? DayMoon or something?

>>30140621
They don't exactly get along.

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>>30140621
Moonday. ^:)

>>30140651
>They don't exactly get along.

As in, "each is committed to the other's destruction."

What do you call an anti-ship like that?

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>>30140651
>>30140784
They're just being tsundere for each other.

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>>30137789
>>30137828
So with this logic that the dreamwalkers fears can manifest themselves in the dream they're walking in...

Doesn't that mean Luna's job is risky af? Surely you have to be at constant relative peace to even attempt look over the dream realm, since it could go horribly wrong. Many people/Ponies have fears and worries, the fact they could manifest themselves in a visited dream seems crazy

>>30140988
Isn't that the reason Luna made the Tantibus in the first place?
To make her Dreamwalking easier?

>>30141261
she made her tulpa to punish her and remind her why she became nightmare moon and to prevent her from doing so again

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>>30141261
>>30141284
In that sort of sense it probably helped her by addressing the problem in what she thought was the best, (or more appropriate) way by containing it into something physical aimed AT her instead of having it bleed into other pony's dreams.

It was better than bottling it up and having Nightmare Moon just pop up in someone's dream when you're trying to comfort them, but at the same time, there was a lot of self-inflicted suffering involved and it wasn't exactly healthy either.

>>30137828
I disagree. Starlight has no reason to assume Celestia has no dark side. She saw from the beginning that both sisters, not just Celestia, were failing to appreciate each other and, based on the fact that NMM resulted from Luna feeling unloved, saw Daybreaker as a logical possibility.

Celestia is caught off guard by Daybreaker because she hadn't considered the possibility of turning rogue herself. Even so, she still recognizes herself in Daybreaker because she sees her as embodying the negative traits she has repressed up to this point.

>>30137371
She's orange like a quesadilla.

>>30141784
Daybreaker is a very extreme possibility. No one has really seen it before and there's also the point of Daybreaker addressing Celestia directly and not even acknowledging Starlight mentioned here >>30136486

>>30142355
NMM doesn't directly address Starlight either as far as I recall. She starts by finishing Starlight's sentence ("--then I am back!") and then spends most of the time fighting Daybreaker. They don't have to address Starlight to be part of her dream, because the verisimilitude of dreams allows for them to operate pseudo-independently.

My view is that NMM and Daybreaker both come from Starlight's fears, but Daybreaker's personality and behavior are influenced by Celestia's presence; that is, Starlight's idea of Daybreaker awakens a formerly unrecognized fear in Celestia that contributes to the nightmare. Without Celestia there, Daybreaker would probably have been a more generic copy of NMM.

>>30140651
>Implying shippers give a damn
The hate just makes it hotter.

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>>30135975
Am I the only one that popped a fuckin massive boner when she appeared.

She's hot

Not sure how I feel about the name "Daybreaker."

Dawnbreaker would have been better.

Does that mean Nightmare Dash's name would be Skycracker? And AJ's would be Timberfall?

>>30142983
But Daybreaker is a pun on "daybreak."

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>>30142458
>Daybreaker both come from Starlight's fears

I just find this hard to imagine. No one really knows of Daybreaker. Starlight's fears were that she'd messed up horribly and the worst was going to happen. The worst, from the past we've seen, is Nightmare Moon. That's often seen as the breaking point of what happens when Celestia and Luna feud.

Past that, Daybreaker? It came out of nowhere to just be Starlight's? It's telling that Daybreakers first words were
>Can you handle ME?

It's very direct, very personal and came directly after Celestia said she could handle Nightmare Moon. Daybreakers entire being is very personal. Without the Elements, handling Nightmare Moon would mean battling her and defeating her, and surely that can waken unwanted fears of completely destroying Nightmare Moon through power and not having to deal with her again. Celestia's immediate response was "No!", a very heightened sense of worry.

If it wasn't part of Celestia's fear ever, it'd be strange for her to suddenly start worrying upon the sight of a manifestation of another Pony's fear, no?

>>30142993
I think we get that...

>>30143095
Then how would Dawnbreaker be better?

>>30143087
People were talking about the fact that Celestia declared Daybreaker would "never exist again" but everyone seems to have overlooked the fact that Luna knew her name without being told. Something was definitely up with evil Sunbutt.

>>30143110
I wasn't disagreeing...

>>30143231
Okay.

>>30143087
NMM is the breaking point of when Luna starts a feud with Celestia. Since Luna and Celestia are mutually feuding with each other (or Starlight is afraid they are going to), "the worst" would be NMM x2.

Celestia is immediately frightened because she recognizes the implications of what she's seeing. She doesn't have to have a preexisting image of Daybreaker to find the sight of an evil version of herself horrifying. It would be like looking in a distorted mirror.

Also being inside someone else's nightmare is probably pretty spooky regardless. Easy for her to become disturbed when confronted with something like that, especially with what little experience she has dealing with pony's dreams. (That is also why I concede her presence probably had an effect on the dream's contents, though I am still inclined to think Daybreaker was initially a product of Starlight's mind.)

>Without the Elements, handling Nightmare Moon would mean battling her and defeating her, and surely that can waken unwanted fears of completely destroying Nightmare Moon through power and not having to deal with her again.
That would make sense given your interpretation.

>>30140621
Evil princest?

>>30140621
SM

>>30143340
*SuMo

>>30143363
Shh, you'll attract the fat fetishists.

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>>30137425
Oh Celestia certainly fears turning. When Daybreaker said that Celestia didn't need Luna because she was more powerful anyway, the desperation in Celestia's voice is clearly there; she was obviously attempting to convince herself that she did in fact need Luna (most likely she truly believes that she does, but seeing such an apparition in the dream realm brought all of her doubts to the forefront of her mind). With Luna's reassurance, her faith in herself was obviously restored, and her double had no power over her then.

>>30142983
Dawnbreaker is shit when you have other ponies inbetween. Twilight, Sunset, etc.
Whatever you pick it has to represent the day specifically.

>>30140988
Luna's probably practiced at keeping her nightmares in check when doing her thing.

>>30143492
This is where I sit. Celestia doesn't understand that to use the dream spell, she must pass through her own subconsciousness to reach the subject. If you don't prepare for that, you risk dragging parts of your own psyche into the dream of another pony and potentially make things worse, which is what happened.

>>30135975

Starlight's, influenced by Celestia.

As others have pointed out, Daybreaker is fictional.
But I think it's interesting to note that Starlight genuinely seems to be under the impression Daybreak (if it existed) would be stronger than Nightmare Moon.
Is this a common misconception ponies have? That Celestia is somehow "stronger" than Luna? Or is it just that Luna has been around for such a short period of time her legend hasn't recovered yet?

>>30135975
OH I'LL LIVE INSIDE YOU FOREVER
WITH SATAN HIMSELF BY MY SIDE

>>30143531
That's no misconception, Celestia is stronger than Luna. The sun is bigger, heavier, Celestia is bigger, her horn is longer, her wings are more majestic and she's older. She also bore the element of magic when they were the bearers, so there's that as well.

If you pay any attention to the comics, they also support Celestia being better with her learning magic at a much faster pace than Luna.

We don't know a lot about them, so we have to assume the ponies think bigger is better.

>>30143531
>As others have pointed out, Daybreaker is fictional.

MAY be fictional. There is quite a bit to also suggest Daybreaker does exist somewhere, either as a magical nightmare or something Celestia did in fact succumb to at one time.

Can't expect them to follow through on this, though, this fucking show...

>>30143557
The Journal Of The Two Sisters indicates she went full Daybreaker once to intimidate a dragon.

>>30143564
shit nigga w h a t

>>30136486
It's definitely Starlight's dream, because Celestia was dreamwalking. Starlight dreamed up Daybreak because of her dear anxiety over the outcome of get decision.

Now, once Starlight was aware that Celestia was in her dream, wouldn't it make sense that she would imagine Daybreak talking to Celestia? Either way, it makes sense for both Daybreak and NMM to ignore Starlight in the dream, because Starlight was feeling ignored by the sisters in real life. Plus, she was worried about conflict between the two sisters, not conflict involving herself.

Then there's the question of Celestia influencing the dream. This is quite possible as well. We're used to seeing the dreamwalking powers being used to soothe dreamers, but who is to say that an inexperienced dreamwalker couldn't mess it up and accidentally make a dream worse?

I'd say the reason Daybreak addressed Celestia is probably due to a little of both of these reasons, but primarily the former.

>>30135975
I wish she didn't have the same personality as Nightmare Moon but it was fun to see.

>>30143556
>The sun is bigger, heavier, Celestia is bigger, her horn is longer, her wings are more majestic and she's older.
That's sort of the beginning and end of the myth right there.
I don't know how they do things in the comic, but in canon they make a special note of pointing out they wore all the elements together, as a whole. When they use the elements they encircle them both, whenever the mane6 use the elements they can only represent one facet of the element each, only one element circles around each pony.

Except for Celestia's size and how well-endowed she is, she does falls short in comparison.
Celestia extremely rarely uses magic more advanced than telekinesis, and when she's IS ambushed by enemy troops before the battle in the Crystal War timeline, she's concentrating just to put up a barrier-spell comparable to S1 Twilight. Luna on the other hand is tossing spells around left and right, often using multiple spells at once or like in Luna Eclipsed, conjuring entire thunderstorms out of thin air just to have lighting punctuate her speech without as much as breaking a sweat or skipping a beat.
This episode also makes a point of pointing out that Celestia is surprised how easy the moon is to raise now that she's got Luna's power. She did raise the moon for 1000 years, so she knows what raising the moon feels like, but she's not used to having this kind of power.

>we have to assume the ponies think bigger is better.
I guess, yeah.

>>30137203
You're a big mare.

>>30143622
That's what you got out of it? To me she was a mirror opposite of Nightmare Moon; whereas Nightmare Moon hates Celestia through jealousy and inferiority, Daybreaker's personality was built on arrogance and lack of compassion. Daybreaker thinks she's the most powerful being ever, it's just Celestia won't let her own sense of empathy and love remove the limiters that hold her back.

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>>30143578
He's talking about this.

At first I was going to discredit him by saying it was just Celestia getting angry, but then I noticed this line:
>She didn't quite remember everything that had happened

Very suspicious.

>>30143645
>and her voice echoed in the air

Also suspicious because it sounded like Daybreaker's voice did that too. That or it was the audio quality.

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>>30143644
Not the one you're replying to, but I don't really agree with you. Daybreak isn't exactly the same as NMM, but she's certainly not the mirror opposite either.
NMM in the pilot is very arrogant. In the flashback in S4 I'd argue she's arrogant too. "There can only be one princess in Equestria, and that princess will be me!", but I guess you could argue it's all out of spite towards Celestia.

Pic related is an example of how NMM too completely lacks compassion.

One minor difference is that NMM has something of a sardonic attitude, she smiles and laughs more and is less serious than Daybreak.

Bump up, interesting thread plz keep up

>>30144758
Honestly I'd like a Daybreaker general at this point.

Maybe discuss pony darksides overall.

>>30144834
It would probably never come to that for any of the mane six, given their development.

>>30135975
Hot

>>30144834
Please don't. The fact this thread isn't a general is what makes it interesting.

>Captcha is generasi
It's trying to tell me something

>>30146049
>the thread would suddenly change dynamically if the word general were added
how can you have such delusions?

>>30146125
Missing the point. This thread is interesting because it isn't one of the endless generals we have on this board. Sure, the first few generals of anything turn out fine, the problems arise later and then it's just one more to the flood of generals that plague this board. Everyone knows its a problem. Don't add to it.

But this is irrelevant, I don't want to start a state of the board discussion in a thread about Daybreaker

>>30146200
its interesting because its new is what youre saying. it has nothing to do with being a general.

if anything though itd probably just be a /villains/ thread.

>>30146049
>The fact this thread isn't a general is what makes it interesting
Uh, no. This thread's subject got old 20 posts in and there's nothing of value left to discuss, which leaves little for a general to actually sustain itself on. The problem with the majority of generals is lack of substantive content, which is influenced by a variety of things, not being generals in and of themselves.

Alright, alright, we get it.

Back to the subject.

It’s funny, because this episode shows that Starlight still thinks that being evil will give you freedom,but being good is all about being limited and chained. There’s no Celestia’s fear of becoming Daybreaker in that memorable scene. It’s just Starlight’s way of thinking.

>>30142983
>>30142993
and "breaking" means taming horses

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>>30143531
>>30143579
>>30143319
>"the worst" would be NMM x2.
Well, is it? I mean, of course that's bad, but is that how you'd imagine the worst being before this episode? Because they've feuded before and NMM was banished for 1000 years.
Isn't that as bad as anyone could imagine it would get? It's the worst case scenario because it's actually happened before, and the 100 year banishing was terrible. Any Celestia/Luna feud creates fears of the worst time, and that worst time was NMM. Even Twilight in her panicked state didn't even come close to sensing Daybreaker. How would it be from Starlight's psyche?
On top of that, in the dream Daybreaker largely defeats Nightmare Moon and rules, which surely pertains to Celestia rather than Starlight. Starlight's worry was making things terrible, but having Daybreaker win would imply she thought Daybreaker is worse for Equestria than Nightmare Moon, which sort of has no basis.

>If Luna can turn into Nightmare Moon, you can absolutely turn into me

This line too, with how directed it was at Celestia.

>>30139382
>>30136800
>>30137050
>>30137789
>>30137828
Personally I still see it as it's laid out in these posts. Which funnily enough isn't how I initially saw it, but thinking about it it seemed to fit. Starlight's dream, which then became mixed with Celestia's fears, given they're in the dream realm.

Doubly so because of the timing Daybreaker awakened. She showed herself right when Celestia propped up to defeat Nightmare Moon. Wouldn't that be the exact time fears like that would manifest themselves?

It seems strange that Starlight would imagine Daybreaker when no one's really considered her before in this sense.

>>30143492
>>30141261
>>30143524
Good points desu. Only further serves to show the Dream Realm really isn't easy at all.
That Tantibus was probably doing more than we realise to help keep Luna's fears at bay in other Ponies dreams.

>>30143542
NO

>>30143632
4u

>>30140718
The fucking best

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>Daybreaker
>They didn't name her Sundowner instead

This ain't the red sun over paradise I was promised

>>30143205
>everyone seems to have overlooked the fact that Luna knew her name without being told. Something was definitely up with evil Sunbutt

I had to go back and watch that, and you're right. Something is definitely up here.

>>30135975
Wouldn't it being Starlight's imply she knew of Daybreaker?

>>30144758
plz this anon is going to sleep

>>30146907
>Isn't that as bad as anyone could imagine it would get?
It seems we fundamentally disagree, because I do not see Daybreaker as difficult to imagine. I'm sure there have been ponies that have entertained the thought (probably in private), "If Luna turned into NMM, could Celestia turn into something too?" It's pretty easy to imagine. It's simple equivalence. It's not like Luna is uniquely gifted with the capacity for evil.

I think reducing the situation to "another Celestia/Luna feud" ignores the important differences. As I said before, Starlight knows that BOTH of the sisters feel unappreciated, so why would she only fear the return of NMM, who was the result of only Luna feeling unappreciated?

Notice that before Celestia arrives, Starlight is being tormented by images of pancakes and lavender, and then by Twilight, whose eyes show both a sun and a moon. And then she expresses her worries with words like "driving you apart" and "if you don't see why you need EACH OTHER" (and then Daybreaker echoes this by saying "You don't need her"). This is something that involves a failure on both of their parts, not just Luna.

Also Starlight is freaking the fuck out and has a guiltboner for herself, so it is easy for me to see her going, "OH GOD what if NMM comes back? OH SHIT WHAT IF IT'S EVEN WORSE THAN THAT? And it'll be MY FAULT!"

>>30146907
>>30149247
>Even Twilight in her panicked state didn't even come close to sensing Daybreaker.
Twilight is Celestia's fangirl. From Starlight's perspective, Celestia hasn't acted any better or more sensibly than Luna. She has no reason to assume her incapable of the same lows when she has been acting the exact same way. And also it's a nightmare. This isn't Starlight thinking totally rationally. Even the thought of NMM returning over a little spat is ridiculous, if you think about it.

Much of this depends on what parts of Daybreaker you choose to attribute to Celestia, and which to Starlight. For instance, I can invert your example by proposing the "Daybreaker defeating NMM" part indeed came from Celestia, but the
>If Luna can turn into Nightmare Moon, you can absolutely turn into me.
could be Daybreaker putting Starlight's fear into her own words (the same way that NMM finished her sentence "--then I am back!" before):
>If Luna can turn into Nightmare Moon, you can absolutely turn into HER.
>But can you handle HER?

Also having reviewed it a bit it seems like Celestia responds more with confusion than immediate terrior when Daybreaker appears, only growing more agitated as she struggles to deflect Daybreaker's taunts. This is consistent with my interpretation, that the kernel of Daybreaker lies with Starlight but became entwined with Celestia's own inner doubts.

>>30140784
An "anti-ship" is actually known as a Crack-ship, or crack pairing.

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>>30141874
Twilight should be terrified of Sunbutt then.

>>30149602
POST IT

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Man everyone isnt even asking the right questions when it comes to these episodes, who cares about dream world logic, there is no logic in dreams.

Why was it brushed off that celestia had to do luna's job for 1000 years?
Why was she completely inexperienced with raising the moon or entering dreams in the first place when in the first episode of this series, twilight reads a book where it explicitly states the eldest sister took over both jobs?

>>30149941
>there is no logic in dreams
Jung is rolling in his grave, s m h.

>Why was she completely inexperienced with raising the moon
She wasn't. All she said was "It's even easier than raising the sun," which is just her putting herself over Luna.

>or entering dreams in the first place
Nowhere in the show is it stated that Celestia took over dream walking, only raising the moon.

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>>30149255
>>30149247
>It seems we fundamentally disagree, because I do not see Daybreaker as difficult to imagine
Then I guess we do. To me it seems a bizarre concept that's quite out there. Even if it is a nightmare, the concept of Daybreaker is one I just can't easily consider. But that said both your reasoning(s) do add up and I do see where you're coming from.
So you think Daybreaker first appeared from Starlight, then fed off Celestia's own fears to grow "stronger" in a metaphorical sense.

One thing is though, being just how immediately Celestia reacted to Daybreaker and what she made of her. You mention how Celestia's first reaction is confusion, but I think that kind of reaction is actually apt for your own nightmares manifesting. Sort of like a "What? No! How?", as in, it's something that's been "encountered" before and she doesn't understand how it's here now. Daybreaker seemed to resonate very heavily with Celestia to just be born out of somepony else's fear. She needed to rebuild her confidence in herself and her bond with her sister to defeat her.
If it was just another Ponies nightmare, it perhaps wouldn't mean too much to Celestia because of the contrast in her beliefs. Before Celestia goes Dreamwalking, she specifically mentions it should be easy, "because they aren't real". And despite that knowledge she was still shaken

There's also the case of when exactly Daybreaker manifested herself. Right when Celestia stepped up to defeat Nightmare. And as I said, at a time when Celestia would be stepping up to defeat her Sister (even fake), she'd be stepping up and overpowering her to win. Like a lesser Daybreaker. awakening the fear

Another point being, Starlight was imagining worst case scenarios, right? Actually screw this I was going to go somewhere but I mean, Celestia and Luna literally trying to destroy each other is pretty much the worst case scenario, moreso than NMM being imprisoned. Which I suppose gives more reasoning for your theory really.

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I honestly don't think idea of Daybreaker being hard to imagine for ponies is too far off. Celestia is pretty much Equestria's golden mare.
>Has had no shown/known evil/tyrant like past actions or talked about desires
>Has always been sunny, kind, and understanding towards ponies even if this is just a face to put up at times
>From what we can guess, ruled Equestria decently on her own the thousand years Luna was gone
>Besides her own tearing herself up inside over banishing Luna, and believing she wasn't a good sister, has not had any need to work out any inner demons or flaws
Now when Nightmare Moon first came to be, this might've caused reasonable doubt on Celetia's trustworthiness, but she was able to hold it together, for a thousand years actually. Ponies in the past might've held doubts, but even then those might've dwindled out, and if not, the ponies did eventually die.

Now, beyond that. I do believe Daybreaker was a mix of Starlight's and Celestia's fears. I truly believe that Starlight only feared NMM coming back, due to Twilight's sperging out over Starlight saying 'Hey, why don't I just confront them both.' She obviously didn't consider doing that as serious a problem as Twilight did. It was only after Twilight freaked out, and yelled at her NOT to do that, at the risk of unleashing NMM. Also, it's shown that Luna dream magic is capable of merging ponies dreams, as seen in DPDOMS. If it can happen without the magic producer knowing is debatable, but still.

>>30151673
>I truly believe that Starlight only feared NMM coming back
So Daybreaker came from Celestia?

>>30151995
I believe so, yes.

>>30147876
GOLDEN RAYS OF THE GLORIOUS SUNSHINE

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Y'all are also forgetting one important dream fact that I think completely solidifies the fact Daybreaker is from Celestia:

You cannot dream of someone you have not physically seen before.

Even if it's a character that doesn't exist, there has to be a physical concept, or a combination of physical objects to create it. The Tantabus may be a dream creation, but it has the appearance of the night sky in the vague shape of Luna, and takes the physical form of things she's seen before of dreams, such as the Mane 6.

While Daybreaker has similar features to NMM, such as the same physical build, teeth, and breastplate, the crown, mane, and especially the eyes are unique.

Notice there's extra focus on Daybreaker's eyes, how they glow vibrantly when she's revealed, and disappearing last when she's defeated.

Either consciously, or subconsciously, either Celestia or Glimmer has to have seen those eyes, along with the other accessories, and Celestia is the only one who could have realistically seen Daybreaker or perhaps seen a depiction of her unless Glimmer is some secret Deviantartist had been doodling some edgy ocs in her spare time. But that doesn't explain Daybreaker's direct, interpersonal dialogue to Celestia.

Before you go
>hurr, the writers couldn't have done something that deep, durr
They did at least some basic research into dreams to come up with that teeth falling out scene. And the fact of only being able to dream of people you've seen before is a very commonly known one that I've seen plastered on normiebook every other week. It's not that hard to make the connection that Daybreaker is a bad memory coming to haunt Celestia physically, and not just a dream.

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>>30143542
>>30146937
GOD DAMN YOU TO HELL DAYBREAKER!
TAKE ALL YOUR EVIL DEEDS
AND ROT IN HELL!

Them Candle eyes man

>>30152674
Have we started the fire?

>>30152674
I'm a little disappointed that most of the fanart doesn't give her those eyes, and just does the standard NMM eye slits.

>>30153067
Maybe when 1080p hits people will realise

>>30135975
I don't know, but it was my wet dream.

>>30152431
>You cannot dream of someone you have not physically seen before.
The Olden Pony? I suppose the book had a description, but this seems like a weird concept and I'm not sure what you mean. In Magic Sheep didn't most Ponies just dream up whatever they could? Apple Bloom saw some crazy things in her dreams too

>>30153439
>the book
The tale*

>>30152431
>there has to be a physical concept,
Doesn't that concept stem from Celestia, and Nightmare Moon?

>>30154449
As in them combined

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bedtime bump plz keep thread up

>>30156453
Lad Luna eclipsed was not her transforming into NMM, just appearing as her. If I recall correctly she spits out a mouth piece. It's a costume on Nightmare Night. It'd be like saying Twilight transformed into Starswirl

>>30156821
Also to add, I'm aware she doesn't exactly take off a costume but rather shapeshifts, but that's magic. I actually can't believe someone out there thinks Luna transformed into Nightmare Moon again. Bloody hell it's not that simple to just go in and out as you please

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>>30156881
I'm the one who needs a Citation, when you've pulled this out of nowhere?
It sounds like your forcing some headcanon here rather than thinking logically


Here. Look. Fake fangs you mong. Unless you want to change it to "she transformed into Nightmare Moon but forgot her teeth", which honestly I wouldn't be surprised if you do. Shapeshifting ≠ Tranforming

>>30156900
you're*
Bloody hell. I've got a stiff neck, I'm blaming that horrible error on that.

>>30152709
Yes, the fire rises

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>>30156453
>>30156900

I don't know what's what here regarding transformation, but I think it's worth pointing out that Twilight did... something... briefly back in S1.

Luna has been shown to be an unparallelled master of magic though, especially transmutation and animation spells, so a simple shapeshift into Nightmare Moon's form is definitely something she's capable of.

>>30157100
That seems more like a sight gag than anything else

still cute as fuck though

>>30157100
A shapeshift, not a transformation. She didn't literally become Nightmare Moon for 2 minutes, she disguised as her through magic. I don't know how that other anon thought and different, it both baffles me and frustrates me.

>especially transmutation and animation spells
Unrelated, but examples? We largely see her in the dream realm which works in different ways

>>30157112
>examples?
As NMM, most of what she does in the pilot is transmutation and animation spells. Transforming herself into a ghostly fog, conjuring up the Shadowbolts, the spooky trees, etc.
In Luna Eclipsed, she transforms her cape into live bats, animates a basket of toy spiders, and transforms into the shape of Nightmare Moon.
In Do Princesses Dream of Magic Sheep, we learn she's actually created a living, self-sustaining nightmare entity, the Tantabus. It's created in the dream realm, yes, but Luna also establishes that it can break through to the waking world if it grows strong enough.

She might have an affinity for storms as well, but I'm not 100% on that one.
In Luna Eclipsed she summons massive storms seemingly without effort several times, and many of her "aimed" or "targeted" spells, like the magic bolt you occasionally get, uniquely take the shape of arcing lightning rather than the usual enveloping beam.

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I'd stare into those lovely candle eyes of hers all day.

>>30158195
If you''re saying that with regards to Luna disguising as NMM you're a legit retard and I'd rather not waste any more time explaining the point.

>>30135975
What would Donald Trump's evil doppelgänger look like?

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>>30158345

>>30157148
Good spots, makes a lot of sense desu.
The things she did as NMM were pretty crazy actually, magic wise those were very, very impressive feats now you mention it.
She has done a few animation spells too which is pretty interesting. The storms thing is something to think about, like you said they were easily conjured and came from nowhere

>>30159156
Imagine being this dense.

I can't

>>30135975
In all my time watching mlp the thought of Celestia going bad never even crossed my mind. I bet its because Luna already filled that roll.

Also Daybreaker sounds fuckin awesome.

>>30159763
>bad never even crossed my mind
Given the discussion here it doesn't seem you're alone
>>30149247
>>30150784

Starlight's. Or at least its easier for me to accept daybreaker as starlight's imagination than as a "canon" way that corrupted celestia would act.
This just doesn't "feel" like celestia. She's never shown a desire for power or anything about being held back from her true potential: So the way she was reveling in her nightmare form seems like a temptation that Wouldn't work for celestia.


Celestia being resentful of Luna or the Responsibilities she has an immortal ruler are fine reasons for her to fall-- I could see her becoming angry and bitter over being expected to do so much for her kingdom to the point of snapping in anger, or being Angry at luna for being more trouble than she's worth (Look at all the shit she's caused like the tantabus or her Screaming at ponies when she's having a Temper tantrum in Luna eclipses, ect.)

Basically her nightmare form being like a "I'm finally going to put you out of my misery and all the other ingrates who Expect me to clean up their shit", and telling Celestia "Wouldn't it be so much EASIER if you just got rid of everyone who was incompetent and forced people to pull their weight?"

but "UNLIMITED POWAH!" just feels wrong to me.

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>>30150784
Bump for discussion

>>30159838
I feel like magic is actually a force that can change the user's emotions and cause a sort of "magical madness" in large amounts.

Almost every instance of someone getting large amounts of raw magical strength with selfish intent, such as Trixie with the Alicorn Amulet, or Sunset with the Element of Magic, or Scilight unleashing that pent up magic storage out of peer pressure, they become lustful for even more power, despite their previous personality.

However alicorns or strong magic users in general have an additional particular weakness of having their magical powers increase under strong emotion. This can lead to something like immense rage or sorrow to turn them into something they didn't intend. Nightmare Moon has some uncharacteristic traits that separate her from Luna as well. Perhaps Celestia could justify turning to Daybreaker to save somepony, or out of rage at someone who did harm a subject, but the transformation changes the mind as well as the body and she becomes the power crazed tyrant that we see.

>>30160477
>magical madness
The Journal of the Two Sisters literally made this canon.
>something something dragon aggro'd Celestia, she caught on fire and raged hard. Then didn't remember anything when she reverted.

It sounds like they can transform into their DB/NMM forms, giving them more power, but emotional instability.

In Celestia's case she reverted, back to herself, maybe because she was just angry at a dick dragon.
Luna stayed in NMM because her reason for changing forms was more rooted to her personality and core.

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>>30159554
you can't stop being a homo.

other than spitting out some fake teeth what proof do you have that she didn't transform into her Nightmare Moon state and have control over it?

why is it a stretch to think that since she's been Nightmare Moon longer than Celly has been Daybreaker [see the pic of the Journal someone posted above], that she can switch in and out of it?
sure it's a guess, but asshole, so is saying she cast an illusion spell or shapeshifted or whatever your making up.

>>30160562
Just imagine.

>>30160579
Ok, got me. You're b8'ing me. It was good.
But this, the like third reply with no answers or anything relevant to prove that you actually had any points to make foiled your ruse.
If you want this to be 10/10 and not 8/10 bait, you should have responded with something to back up your claims.
No one as autistic as you're pretending to be would completely ignore a direct question into their head canon.
Still solid work though.

>>30160613
Nice reading comprehension. I did specifically tell you I'm not going to bother wasting any more time explaining the point to you
That post is also the only one where you've actually made any coherent points though, rather than some bollocks strawman so good job on that. It's progress.

Maybe if the thread stays up I'll bother with a response later. I'll probably have to drill it home too just to make sure you get it.

>>30155550
bedtime bump 2

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>>30135975
So without reading 170+ posts what's the conclusion here?

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>>30160477
If that's the case than it completely makes sense why Celestia is so adamant about friendship. Selflessness is the key to control powerful magic without corruption.

Take for example, the Elements. When the Princesses or Mane 6 used them, they did so without fail and without side effect, even though it is powerful enough to literally trump any magical foe. BUT, that means that magic is not necessarily good or evil, thus when Sunset Shimmer put on the crown for selfish reasons, the magic of the Element flowed through her uncontrolled and corrupted her.

This also explains how Twilight was suddenly able to be much more proficient with the insane amounts of magic of all the princesses at the same time when she fought Tirek, when otherwise she was having problems controlling it. She was fighting for her friends.

And maybe one of the first and most historically important instances is this may explain the moment Clover the Clever unleashed the Hearth spell that banished the wendigoes. She even stated "I don't know how I did it." but it was the friendships she made and being selfless towards her supposed enemies that allowed her to fulfill their combined wish and save ponykind.

In short, and in a somewhat ironic twist, friendship isn't necessarily magic, but it does definitely control it and make it good.

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>>30161892
That you're a faggot and should disappear for expecting to be spoonfed.

>>30162009
Anon, come on

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>>30162316

>>30162352
rude

>>30160477

The problem with this theory is that the Alicorn Amulet is a textbook example of a classic cursed item, and Sunset and Scilight don't really apply to canon.

>>30159838
>She's never shown a desire for power or anything about being held back from her true potential
When would we have had the opportunity to observe this side of her, though? It's not like we know a lot about what Celestia is actually like.

It makes sense to me that her darker desires bear little resemblance to what she is normally. People are defined as much by what they are as what they refuse to be.

>>30160562
>other than the pivotal piece of evidence supporting your theory, what evidence do you have?
Why is the fake teeth not enough? To me that was put in specifically to show that it was a "costume" of sorts (it being Nightmare Night and all), not the real thing.

>>30163269
>When would we have had the opportunity to observe this side of her, though?
Crystal War timeline in the episode where Starlight messes with the map? Celestia is barely capable of protecting herself when she's ambushed, and judging by the map the war is going very bad for Equestria.
If Celestia had "potential", she wouldn't have lost more than half the continent in a drawn-out war that mutilated Rainbow Dash and got god knows how many innocent ponies killed.

>>30163290
Interesting answer. To me it's not really a question of her actually possessing hidden or withheld power, it's her wanting to place herself in a position of dominance. It is harder to be responsible and deferential than tyrannical and pompous, so the easier way will always have its temptations.

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>>30163290
The Sombra War timeline, and I feel every other timeline that Celestia clearly loses are ones where she held back despite everything. Because while Daybreaker is a deep desire for power for her specifically, she has clearly shown powerful self-control as well.

The Ashlands maybe what we've all assumed in the end and possibly be the timeline that Daybreaker was unleashed on the world. In a fit of anger, she destroyed Nightmare Moon, incinerated Sombra's armies, even slain the likes of Discord and Tirek. In the end she even scorched her own kingdom in her lust for power.

>>30163642

I don't buy it.
I simply can't imagine a timeline where Celestia would sit idly by twiddling her... hooves while she lets half her people get slowly torn apart by the machinations of war. It seems so drastically out of character for her.

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>>30163642
To make my point, I'm inventing a scale:
>1 U = 1 strong unicorn worth of magic
With me so far? Exactly how much 1U is isn't important.

Why is it that, according to your logic, Celestia can only switch between two modes, 1U which is her normal self, and 100U (which is completely hypothetical, by the way) Daybreaker mode?
Luna for example is something like 25U in her day-to-day life, and in your hypothetical scenario say 50U as Nightmare Moon (most people argue she's stronger as NMM, but again, there or no substance for this is in the actual show. NMM might be 25U too).

Here's an example of what I'm talking about, in a life-or-death scenario Celestia is focusing intently to summon a barrier, comparable to what Twilight does in S1. When she loses to Chrysalis is another example. Typical 1U use of magic, in line with strong unicorns like Twilight or Starlight.

The Alicorn Amulet improved Trixie's magic tenfold, it didn't improve it a thousandfold. Chrysalis' feeding on Cadance improved her magic tenfold, not hundredfold. Cadance recharging Shining Armor increased his power twofold, not hundredfold, etc.
Why, in your headcanon, is Celestia an exception here?

>>30161892
COME ON

>>30163695
She didn't, at least in the Sombra timeline, but she was clearly holding back.

>>30164263

Based on what? Supporting evidence please.

>>30164273

>>30163769 pic related, you mong.

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>>30135975
This whole episode was a goldmine, it makes up for Season 6 sucking bags of floppy dicks.
>Here we see an Alicorn in the midst of her mating ritual. The species she courts with matters not, though her dominating instincts can lead to unsavory experiences with the potential mate.

>>30137436
Luna knows that even though her sister lives a celebrity life she still has more than enough power to eclipse everything else if she wants to.

>>30136131
Did you also notice her cutie mark had an orange splotch background kinda like Luna's

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>>30164339

Is this bait? The fuck are you talking about? That pic works against your claim.
As you can see in the pic, Celestia is clearly focusing intently, giving it all she can muster at such a short notice. She's even closing her eyes while she's focusing, which ponies only do if a spell is difficult (i.e. requires a lot of concentration).
You see this all the time with Twilight especially. Telekinesis is easy and comes second-nature to Twilight, she only pauses for a brief moment while she's casting it, while more advanced spells take greater focus.

>>30143524
>Celestia doesn't understand that to use the dream spell, she must pass through her own subconsciousness to reach the subject. If you don't prepare for that, you risk dragging parts of your own psyche into the dream of another pony and potentially make things worse, which is what happened.
You know the way the nightmare unfolded, I want to say that it was Celestia who made Nightmare Moon appear in Starlight's dream given that the manifestation brought with it a change in scenery.

>>30164339
>>30164429
Another example of how a hard spell is cast. Probably unicorn-Twilight's hardest.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsVG-yBRxkY

Celestia's focus and effort in the Crystal War timeline is somewhere between the two, while the effect is comparable to what unicorn Twilight is capable of (she casts a variant of the same bubble-spell in S2 to keep out the CMC, in Foal Free Press).

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>>30164429
>Reading comprehension
What are you talking about? My claim is that she isn't sitting idly by in this timeline, but she's not doing everything she can.

In a world where city sized shields exist, she choose to cast a little barrier to knock them back. She hasn't gone for Sombra directly, and we all know she can.

>>30164470
>she's not doing everything she can.
Prove it. Prove she can do more.

>In a world where city sized shields exist, she choose to cast a little barrier to knock them back.
Because she's not a very good magician. As the show demonstrates whenever she uses her magic for more than simple telekinesis or raising the sun she struggles.

>She hasn't gone for Sombra directly, and we all know she can.
Bullshit. It's you who BELIEVES she can, but so far has provided zero evidence to back up your claims.

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>>30164482
I have concerns over your cognitive skills.

>>30164429
Other anon here. She doesn't look like she's focusing to me, not on casting the spell at least. She's closing her eyes because she's calming herself down. It's not like she's squinting her eyes as if she were exerting an effort, as Twilight is in that image.

Before she looks distracted by her concern for the ponies around her. Then she is surprised by the ambush. Then she closes her eyes, as if to steady and center herself while she casts the spell. Afterwards her eyes show resolve.

>>30164511
Not admissible.

One, the episode has established that she's using Luna's magic. That's why she's so surprised the moon is so easy to raise. She raised the moon alone for 1000 years but has never had access to Luna's magic before.

Two, the dream realm as established in Do Princesses Dream of Magic Sleep doesn't work with the same rules. "You can do anything in a dream, remember?".

Three, she's up against an imaginary being, all smoke and mirrors. Never once is the concern raised that Daybreak could somehow enter the real world and wreak havoc, unlike the Tantabus Daybreak doesn't hold any power.

>>30164565
>It's a dream, it doesn't count!

Fuck off with that shit. Celestia was the bearer of the element of magic for X number of years, and we've all seen the shit Twilight can do with it, let alone a thousands year old alicorn.

The only two times we've seen her fight, only once did she use a laser. As the princess of 'go make some friends!', Celestia is clearly pacifistic and opposed to fighting and will only do so if ponies are at risk. The Sombra timeline is difficult for her to deal with because Sombra is essentially using ponies as a meat shield, therefore she is holding back.

Daybreaker is what happens when she stops caring.

>>30164538
Yeah, barriers from what we've seen aren't very taxing spells, but they are quite difficult to cast.
Which is I guess why defensive spells actually work. Difficult but not taxing to cast, while offensive spells are the opposite. And really complex spells are of course both.

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>>30164482
While the true power Celestia is debatable, I do believe she was holding back. She simply knocked the ponies back instead of outright shooting lasers at them. She did this, probably not because she can't, but because she knows they are not doing this on their own accord. Sombra has them imprisoned by the helmet they wear, and just beneath that, it's innocent ponies, and Celestia knows this. At this point, no matter how weak she is, or how hard she's gonna have to try to do it, Celestia isn't going to outright murder somone who isn't in their right mind, especially if they're under the control of Sombra.

>>30164598
>It's a dream, it doesn't count!
Strawman. The fact still remains she's using Luna's magic for everything she does. Why did you choose to not address this major point?
Besides, you're not seriously suggesting Big McIntosh turning into an alicorn "counts" for something? I mean, you're not actually trying to argue dreams DO count, and Big McIntosh should be hailed as Equestria's fifth princess?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpB3Zv2q-dc
It's a dream, as real as the one in >>30164511, and counts for exactly as much.

>Celestia was the bearer of the element of magic for X number of years
Fuck off with that shit. In the show they make a point of utilizing all 6 elements together, only in the comics is Celestia the element of magic.

>The Sombra timeline is difficult for her to deal with because Sombra is essentially using ponies as a meat shield, therefore she is holding back.
I find this interpretation of Celestia very hard to stomach.
Look at the map. She's lost more than half of Equestria, the landscape is torn apart by war, and ponies are losing limbs. Equestria's entire industry has been retooled to wage war, while those who can't fight become refugees and are evacuated across the ocean.
But Celestia is too "pristine" to bloody her hooves with the handful of lives standing between her and Sombra? I refuse to believe Celestia would be so self-centered and heartless she'd sacrifice half a nation in a dragged out war because striking down a few "meat shields" is too difficult for her personally. Like when she goes up against Chrysalis, I believe she'd give everything she has and more for her little ponies.

>>30164687

They have her surrounded, and a shield spell was the best quick response she could think of. Chances are, the laser would have only hit two or three at most, as it's quite slow and she'd have to rotate 360 degrees.
Like Twilight in Starlight's initial appearance, a unicorn can be ambushed and overrun.

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>>30164690
>The elements don't count because they HAVE to be used together, I will provide no evidence for this argument
>The comics don't count either, because I say so, and because it actually supports the argument

And this is where I get off, no one cares if it's hard for you to stomach. The evidence is there that, if she chooses to, Celestia has the power to wipe the board clean, and that she merely chooses not to. If you don't want to accept that, fine, you're free to believe whatever you wish, as am I.

>>30161892
People want to fuck Daybreaker

>>30147876
That's because sundowner is a type of wind you dingus.

>>30164780

I don't even know why I bother. So far I've refuted every claim you've made, and expanded on everything you've asked me to. The best you've managed to come up with in the way of evidence is:
>d-dreams totally count!

>The elements don't count because they HAVE to be used together
Pay attention. My argument is that Celestia isn't element of magic in the same way Twilight is. Pic related, this is what it looks like when Celestia and Luna use the elements. Both enveloped by all elements.
Contrast to mane6 who hold 1 element each.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdIxSdhsUgs

>The comics don't count either
The comics don't count because they are strictly non-canon, and openly contradict the show on many, MANY central points regarding characters, locations and history.
For example in the comic, the changelings were all spawned from a tree on a graveyard, and got their holes in their legs after getting shot by Celestia. In canon, new changelings are born as larvae and their holes are a natural part of them.
In the comic, Luna was banished ON the moon and made friends with furry creatures who guides dreams. In canon, Luna guides dreams and she was banished IN the moon.
etc. etc.
When discussing canon, the comics are no more admissible as evidence than a fanfic or piece of fanart is.

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>>30164858
Ooops. Here's the pic

>>30164690
Just wondering, where in the comics is it said Celestia and Luna used three of the Elements each? I'm sure I've read that before but I can't find where.

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>>30164858
The only argument you've provided to support your own claim is assumptions based on how she's animated when casting. You've then gone on to say that she always struggles when casting spells that aren't telekinesis when that is clearly false. I present to you her appearance in Lesson Zero, her beam spell against Chrysalis and the fact that she teaches magic at a school that is named after her.

I feel that I have to point out that a real debate involves the discussion of ideas by both sides, not one side providing evidence while the other refutes, if you cannot provide a single other argument other than 'it looks like she's struggling', then it is a waste of time to continue. Good day.

tl;dr, why is she weak, apart from animations that can be handwaved as animators making things look tough for dramatic effect.

>>30164980

I'm not an expert on the comics, as I gave up on them a long time ago, only giving them a quick glance in the passing.
Which is about the same amount of effort the artists apparently put in.

But I digress. In the fairly recent Accord arc, Celestia apparently represents order (as opposed to harmony, as she does in the show) and uses the element of magic.

>>30165022
Aren't order and harmony essentially the same thing? In the same way that Discord represents chaos and disharmony.

>>30165043

No.
You see harmony represented in Equestria's flag, the allusion to Yin and Yang of Celestia and Luna. You see harmony represented in the mane6, six very different ponies with different aspirations, ideals and drives. Some of them chaotic like Pinkie, some of them ordered like Twilight, but who all come to together in harmony.

Starlight's village is an example of total order, while Discord's world is an example of total chaos. Celestia, Luna and elements strive for the balance inbetween. A world of harmony where ponies are free to dream, and the structure exists to chase those dreams.

>>30165022
Hmm, I'm sure it's a much earlier source that I'm thinking of. The best I can find is speculation based on screenshots from the Season 4 premiere (showing Celestia and Luna taking out and levitating three Elements each before using them as in your image >>30164864). Ah well.

>>30136486
See this is what happened, It's starlight dreaming of an evil celestia. she probably thinks celestia in her dream was part of her dream, sooo.... yeah, celestia became a part of it. So daybreaker taunted celestia.

>>30165000
>I present to you her appearance in Lesson Zero
What, the dispel? The one where she's closing her eyes and focusing? Seems to be about on level with other advanced unicorns to me.

>her beam spell against Chrysalis
She lost. Her horn got a bit scorched and she was knocked to the ground from the blow. The same happens when Twilight repeatedly blasts changelings with her beam in the same episode.

>she teaches magic at a school that is named after her.
Does she actually teach? As in, does she hold lectures? Twilight as we know is a special case who for obvious reasons needs to stay under Celestia's direct supervision. Please refresh my memory here if she DOES teach.
Either way, my counterargument isn't affected by whether she teaches or if the school is simply named after her, as we know from Sunburst magical theory is completely separate from magical practice.

>The only argument you've provided to support your own claim is assumptions based on how she's animated when casting.
It's in the dialogue as well. Like how Celestia is surprised the moon is so easy to move using Luna's magic.
I've got tons of circumstantial evidence as well. For example:
The reason she resorted to blasting her sister with the elements rather than try to bring her down and talk to her like a sane pony would was because she knew she couldn't take NMM on.
The reason she didn't cut a path to Sombra and personally struck him down to save countless thousands of lives was because she was incapable of doing so.
The reason she lost to Chrysalis in the attack on Canterlot and the assault on the civilian population could continue was because she tried her best, but her best was not enough.
But these are all circumstantial, as I said, so don't feel you're pressed to refute them. Other alternative explanations for Celestia's acting (or lack thereof) could exist.
There does come a point, however, when it might be pertinent to apply Occam's razor.

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>>30140988
>>30141261
>>30143492
>>30143524
Alright, so I was thinking.

If your own Nightmares, doubts, and fears can influence the dream realm, and even lead them to becoming manifested.
Does that explain how Luna in the S6 finale managed to get a message to Starlight and was then grabbed by Changelings who took her away? It seems to make a lot of sense. She was in a panicked state herself, and I'm not sure if the Changelings can just invade the dream realm, but Luna escaping them momentarily to get the message out makes sense doesn't it?

>>30165140
>The one where she's closing her eyes and focusing?
What did I just say about animators? Closing your eyes to cast an area effect spell is literally a drama thing. You keep falling back on this.

>She lost.
Chrysalis was on love steroids, because 'love is the most powerful thing', do you not understand the trope?

>Does she actually teach
Being Twilight's magical mentor has been a thing since episode one, admittedly, we only got evidence in season 5 that she taught anyone else as well, and even more in this season with Celestial Advice. Sunburst's talent is magical theory, and the show has proven that regular ponies are shit at things that aren't their special talent.

>Like how Celestia is surprised the moon is so easy to move using Luna's magic.
She was thinking out loud. You literally forgot that she did this for a thousand years without Luna's magic. That wasn't surprise, that was smugness that she was correct in her assumption that her sister has it easy.

>The reason she resorted to blasting her sister with the elements rather than try to bring her down and talk to her like a sane pony would was because she knew she couldn't take NMM on.
Talking her down was the very first thing she attempted if you were actually paying attention. A sane pony wouldn't blast their sister to smithereens. She was reluctant to use the elements in the first place and remained so right up to the moment she did it.

>The reason she didn't cut a path to Sombra and personally struck him down to save countless thousands of lives was because she was incapable of doing so.
Except she is. She gave Chrysalis, who was doped up on love steroids at the time difficulty. You seem perfectly content ignoring that Chrysalis struggled to push the beam back towards Celestia.

>The reason she lost to Chrysalis in the attack on Canterlot
In keeping with the theme that love overcomes all. They had Chrysalis beat Celestia BECAUSE Celestia is powerful, to signify that love is stronger.

>>30165643
In closing, Celestia is essentially pony Gandalf, we're lead to the assumption that she has great power, but relies on parlour tricks, even when shit's going sideways and calls for bigger things.

>>30165643
>What did I just say about animators?
I'm just pointing out that they're very consistent across the show.

>Chrysalis was on love steroids
I'm afraid I don't see your point. Celestia uses a very basic spell and reaches a result on par with or slightly above other advanced unicorns.
Which is less than Chrysalis' version of the spell, as Chrysalis knocks Celestia down and leaves a visible burn.
Twilight shatters pottery and leaves burn-marks, but doesn't leave burn-marks on the changelings she hits. (of course, a black mark on their chitin would be very hard to see even if you DID go the extra length and animate it).

>You literally forgot that she did this for a thousand years without Luna's magic
No that's my point. Without Luna's magic she can do it fine, WITH Luna's magic like here, it's surprisingly easy. "Being Luna, with access to all that magic, sure is easy".

>Talking her down was the very first thing she attempted if you were actually paying attention.
At no point does Celestia try to talk NMM down. She's immediately confrontational, and goes out of her way to refuse NMM's challenge to a duel, saying "I will not fight you".
>A sane pony wouldn't blast their sister to smithereens.
But surely, if Celestia has all this incredible power you claim she has, why can't she put Luna in a stranglehold and talk some sense into her? Why does she bring out the Big Guns EoH and blast her to the moon without even trying?

>Chrysalis struggled to push the beam back towards Celestia.
Yep, they seem about evenly matched. Both are around the level of an advanced unicorn judging by the laser. If Chrysalis was significantly MORE powerful than a top-tier unicorn, she could have for example just blasted the barrier to smithereens from inside rather than have her changelings throw themselves at it time and time again to wear it down.

>>30165659

Celestia is a lot closer to pony Havelock Vetinari.
A benevolent dictator with no great power other than what her experience has given her, but relying on clever planning, a vast information network (and in Celestia's case, limited precognition), and a promise of stability and harmony to keep the wheels spinning and nip potential threats in their bud.
Not only are her gambits like putting Twilight in Ponyville at the right time, or ensuring Cadance marries the captain of the Royal Guard and placing them in the right place so that they may claim the Crystal Empire's throne very Vetinari-esque, Equestria in many ways mirrors Ankh-Morpork when it comes to laws, rulings and politics as well. Conquering by slow assimilation through friendship and trade rather than violent invasions for example.

>>30165742
Not him but the whole Celestia Vs Crysalis thing:

Celly was attending her adopted daughter wedding, she'd had a few glasses of wine and was chilling out trying to get over the whole Twilight shit storm. Suddenly another Alicorn level being looking for a fight appears, with no warm up or time to prepare she has to immediately fight a duel and probably didn't rate the bug lady and wasn't bringing her A game.

Meanwhile Crissy had been mainlining Alicorn consort tier love for possibly months, training and psyching herself up to be ready for the fight of her life, you can see how surprised she is that she won so easily.

tldr: Crissy brought her A game, Celle was caught flat footed and probably half cut.

>>30165742
>I'm just pointing out that they're very consistent across the show.
Fair enough, but I'll maintain that it's for dramatic effect.

>I'm afraid I don't see your point.
The point is that love is more powerful than anything in the world, Chrysalis goes on to say that absorbing Shining Armors love has made her even more powerful than Celestia, an empty claim if Celestia is as magically inept as you say she is.

>No that's my point.
I assume that's in comparison to her using her magic to raise the sun, which is a far larger body. Supposedly. The sun and moon and how they work is whole 'nother can of worms.

>At no point does Celestia try to talk NMM down.
>"Lower the moon, it's our duty!"
>"I will not fight you."
And this... Somehow translate to her not trying to talk NMM down and being incapable of fighting her? She clearly can, and doesn't want to. This supports my argument for Celestia being pacifistic.

>But surely, if Celestia has all this incredible power you claim she has, why can't she put Luna in a stranglehold and talk some sense into her? Why does she bring out the Big Guns EoH and blast her to the moon without even trying?
Plot reasons. It would make sense to us for her to do that, but wouldn't make for good storytelling. It's far more dramatic to have Celestia be extremely powerful, but unwilling to use that power. The evidence of that is pointed out by Daybreaker in Glimmer's dream. Not by Daybreaker having said it, but Celestia's reaction to those words.

>>30165794
I have no idea who that is or what it's from, so I can't exactly argue against it. I disagree with your assessment, but if that's what floats your boat, that's fine too. I'll stick to a sunhorse with great power but no willingness to put it to use.

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Honestly seeing the thread it doesn't really seem like there is a consensus.

Everyone knows it's Starlight's dream. But the existence of Daybreaker itself has people a bit split.
Either Daybreaker came from Starlight's nightmare and put fear into Celestia, thereafter feeding off her doubts.
Or Starlight only imagined Nightmare Moon, reminiscent of what happened 1000+ years ago and Celestia's own doubts caused Daybreaker to appear.

There seems to be good points for both

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>>3016376

Okay faggot, I had some normie obligations to fulfill, but now I'm back you best prepare yourself because I'm about to get Twiggy levels of autistic up in here.

So your scale is actually quite useful to explain my point, so I'm gonna hijack it. Except I'm actually going to do the math, and because of how autistic you are about what's canon and not, I'm using the show only.

The goal here is to find out how powerful Celestia really is by comparison to the average unicorn.

To start, lets look at the season 4 finale, which conveniently shows all the accumulated magical energy in Equestria concentrated into one spot, sans the Tree of Harmony, which is not important for our calculations. During the fight with Tirek, we know two things: Tirek has ALL the magical energy of Equestria's population, plus Discord. And that the magical potential of all 4 of the Princesses combined (sans Flurry Heart) are equivalent to that magic. You can write it down more simply as:
>C+L+Cz+Ts = E+D

Where C is Celestia, L is Luna, Cz is Cadance, Ts is Twilight, E is Equestria's population, and D is Discord.

This equation represents where all the magical energy of Equestria is divided up, but we don't know in what proportions. So lets break it down.

Lets solve for Twilight first. So assuming a "U" unit is equivalent to the average unicorn, which I'm going to assume as capable of simple levitation of heavy objects with minor strain as a base, you can tell that there are unicorns that fall in a spectrum below and above that sort of number. And when it comes to magic, Sparkle is a powerhouse of a unicorn for sure. When it comes to potential, she is equal to or less than Starlight Glimmer, who I'm just going to assume has the potential of about 7U considering some of the feats she's pulled puts her on par with Star Swirl the Bearded. The one other source I'll reference is the Journal here That would put Twiggy at about 6U respectively.

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>>30166821
>>30163769

But all that means is that Twilight contributed squat to the magic power used to fightTirek. So with that in mind, we'll solve for Cadance.

She's a special case, because her power is variable on two factors: the crystal population of the Crystal Empire, and their happiness. So,
>Cz = K(H%)
Where K is the Crystal Empire Population, and H (which in calculations will be represented by a decimal between 1 and .01) represents the ratio of how many are happy.

Alone, Cadance is still a strong magic caster, but as seen when holding a shield against Sombra, does so with considerable strain. Equivalent or less than Shining Armor in strength, who is most likely less than Twilight. Leaving her at a mere approximate of <=5U

But despite her being miles away from her capital when she dumps her energy into Twilight, lets assume she gave Twilight the entire power of the Crystal Heart with it, and lets assume it gave her the strength of her entire kingdom at maximum happiness, which was capable of disintegrating King Sombra when unleashed. Given the city's size, I'll be conservative and say that the population of the Crystal Empire has a base of 5000 ponies. That means that we have ~5000U accounted for.

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>>30166849 (didn't know how it got the post number wrong last time)
BUT THOSE ARE ROOKIE NUMBERS, WE GOTTA PUMP UP THOSE NUMBERS

Now we take the entire population of Eqeustria into account. Now we don't know the exact population of their cities, but we have approximate size on the larger cities and know that places like Canterlot, Manehattan, and perhaps Fillydelphia are at least twice the size of the Crystal Empire in density and population. Then for lesser cities like Las Pegasus and Cloudsdale, I'll represent as being near "K" size, and I'll round up all the smaller villages like Dodge Junction, Appleloosa, and Ponyville into another K equivalent. Just using the map from the show, that means E=11K
Or 55,000U assuming my small estimate of 5000 for K.

This means that Luna and Celestia account for the vast majority of the energy given to Twilight to fight Tirek, or you can tweak the equations as such
>Cz = K(H%) and 11K=E
>E-Cz = 10K = C+L

Meaning there's 50,000 U to share between Celestia and Luna. They're some big ponies.

Now for you, lets find out how Discord fits into all this. We once thought his reality bending powers were omniscient, but we find he is able to be overpowered. With ease, even. Definitely less than E, and again, was found powerless against the Magic Absorbing Stone of the Changeling Hive.

Yet wasn't that stone overpowered and destroyed by magic outburst? Well shit sherlock, that could mean that Discord couldn't be any more than the number of Changelings that converted in that hive. Assuming that a changeling is equivalent to a U in strength, that would mean at the very least that Discord is less than the magical potential of the Changelings, and the Changelings are less than the power of the Crystal Empire.
> D < Ch < K

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>>30166867

Now we're getting somewhere with these power levels. We do know also in the timeline episode that there IS a confirmed alternate reality where Nightmare Moon reigns supreme and you can fairly agree defeated Discord without fail. She rules without question and obviously defeated Celestia.

The one where Discord reigns, however, shows BOTH normal Celestia and Luna being his personal playthings. Meaning Luna came back, was reformed single handedly through Celestia, and then both failed to Discord despite fighting against him combined. So when in their "normal" forms, they're obviously limited to the amount of potential they can use... Or desire to use.

When Celestia first fought Nightmare Moon, she outright refused to fight until forced to use the Elements. While one of Celestia's offensive beams wasn't even able to match Chrysalis, one of Nightmare Moon's beams almost totally took out Celestia in a single hit.

But against Daybreaker, one of her hits downed NMM for almost the same amount of time once it connected. Fighting with an almost uncaring glee as well as ferocity.

This puts Celestia's potential to be at least an order of magnitude GREATER than Luna's.

>if C+L = 10K
>and C > L
> C > 5K
>otherwise C > 25,000U

Well then, shit. Why is she not putting Sombra's head on a pike herself in the Sombra war Timeline?'

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>>30166885
I'll tell you why, you idiot.

There's one more factor to take into account. Thresholds.

There appears to be a certain point for Alicorns or any being bestowed with enough magical energy when a strong emotion tips them over a certain edge, and once they reach that point, they transform into a monstrous version of themselves, absent of reason, regret, and empathy.

With Luna, she retained her normal appearance, despite her anger, despite her shouting, until she used her magic and blocked the sun. By her expression, the transformation was unexpected and she didn't know how exactly to react to the magic taking control of her.

We see similarities with Sunset Shimmer. She instantly gains a face of horror, and even begins to cry when she attempts to tap into the Element and as the transformation takes hold, then the tears evaporate away and she begins to act as if nothing happened. Scilight and Midnight Sparkle were the exact same way. Past the point of transformation, they are no longer themselves.

Celestia... Referencing the journal once again as that's the only reference we have, transformed just by losing her temper. Once. And when it was over, she couldn't even remember what happened.

So that changes the perspective of Celestia being unfortunate enough to have the most magical potential... and the lowest threshold to unleash it.

She holds back not because she wants to. She HAS to. She cannot let herself use magic too offensively, cannot let her actions become careless, cannot harm another pony, lest she ignites the fire within herself and destroys everything.

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>>30166928
In the Sombra timeline, he used her own ponies against her. Even she couldn't watch to see them killed and would rather fight the hard way instead of cruelly slaughter all of them. In the Chrysalis Timeline, she let herself be captured hoping another pony may break them. In the Nightmare Moon timeline, she wouldn't let herself go down the same road as her sister, even if it meant certain defeat. At least there would be an Equestria to return to.

The Ashlands are the result of that breaking point. When she couldn't take it any longer, for whatever reason, she lost control.


In conclusion, and tl;dr, Celestia is a literal DEMIGOD when it comes to power, but she holds back because she really is afraid.

Afraid of releasing her true power.

Because in the end it's a better future for Equestria that she lose than it is if she tried to win.

Because should she win, there would be no Equestria to save.

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>>30166970
Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to off myself because I just wasted all my autism justifying the powers and motive of a fictional magical horse princess and her connections to a fictional Armageddon using some abomination of algebra and science and offended the meme gods in the process.

>>30166991
Truly, you are what we should all aspire to be.

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>>30166991
Dude.

>>30138563
rrrreeee.... rrrrreeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee...... rrrreeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

>This power level discussion and equations being thrown out

Do I get into it lads

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>>30166821
>>30166849
>>30166867
>>30166885
>>30166928
>>30166970
>>30166991

> C > 25,000U
>A conservative estimate

>>30166970
>she holds back because she really is afraid.
Not read most of your discussion, but this sort of caught my eye given it's pretty relevant to the OP. You reckon Daybreaker spawned from Celestia's thoughts, out of fear of what she's capable of?

>>30166991
you're a fucking legend

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>>30167748
Indeed. If you're so powerful and yet so easy to fall into a cycle of destructive insanity like that, there's very little chance that you wouldn't be concerned about it. Especially when she's already the leader of the world.

See, no consensus

It's undeniable that Daybreaker seemed to pain Celestia and seemed to give her fears, which she needed to overcome her with inner strength and belief.
But the appearance of Daybreaker in itself seems to be split on two sides

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This discussion on magic is sort of interesting desu.
I'm sort of wondering myself how Daybreaker and NMM appear to be "stronger" than Celestia and Luna, in that we've seen them use their power very offensively and seemingly look unstoppable.

What causes Rage/Negative emotions to give them a power boost and take on new forms?

>>30161467
bedtime bump 3

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>>30167818
reminds me a lot of this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cl_5UwS57X8

What would Anon's nightmares look like?

>>30168877
he wakes up back on earth

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>>30168877

>>30166991

You present an interesting theory, but it's far too dependent on assumptions without any solid basis for me to be able to take it seriously.
I can definitely see where you're coming from, but it's not solid enough to convince me.

You're assuming, for example, that what Daybreaker does is something Celestia is actually capable of in the waking world, when the show gives us no indication this is the case. Princess Big McIntosh again. Big Mac can't transform into a princess while awake.

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>>30169988
Well that's all well and good except if I were to take out the assumptions on power level, then guess what?

THAT MAKES CELESTIA EVEN MORE POWERFUL!

Because we have SOLID proof that the 4 alicorns have half the power of the world. My assumptions gave Cadance as big of a contribution as possible, meaning there would be less power to share for the Royal Sisters.

Taking out assumptions, then, that would mean that Celestia and Luna combined would mostly contain the magical power as half the entire world.

Also as for indications from dreams, there is a lot of assumptions to be made, yes, but the best we have is implications suggesting that yes, Daybreaker is a possible path that Celestia can take.

Why? The difference between your "Princess Mac" scenario and Celestia's situation is that Celestia isn't technically dreaming herself. She is merely observing, yet at the same time, dream magic can influence the scene around her. This gives her protection FROM her dreams and even power over them (which is why Daybreaker doesn't just take her down without a sweat or say, get bored and turn her into something else for amusement, and you can see when she first sees Nightmare Moon and takes a defensive stance there's an immediate shield without a thought) But as we've seen with Luna and the Tantabus, the dreamwalker can be overwhelmed by their own dream creations if their fears take hold and seemingly become weak against them until they confront those fears. Again I go to the interpersonal dialogue between Celestia and Daybreaker. Not just by what is said, but by the reactions between them.

cont.

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>>30170376

>DB: If Luna can turn into Nightmare Moon, you can ABSOLUTELY turn into me! Daybreaker. The better, prettier and more powerful version of you!
>C: [defiantly] No... I'll never turn into you!
Most of this I feel was exposition to explain the situation to the viewer. But Celestia's reaction sells it as the continuation of an old argument. She's defiant, but at the same time, stunned. She never says she cannot turn, she says she will not.

>DB: Deep inside you know how powerful you are. You don't need Luna!
>C: That's not true! Even when we were apart, I knew I needed her!

This goes back to my original statement that friendship is a key to controlling strong magic without corruption. Celestia used her friendship with Luna to keep herself grounded during their "Purging" phase against all the old villains such as Discord, Tirek, and Sombra, allowing them to instead use the elements properly. When she banished NMM, we can only assume she used her own regret as a crutch to help her keep her own sanity, since she hasn't flamed up during those 1000 years. (to our knowledge... We only know that somehow she maintained peace for that entire time single handedly. We don't know why)

But Daybreaker's way of speaking is interesting. She says so with malice and anger, not soothing or cunningly. Like Daybreaker IS the very thing Celestia is suppressing and she wants out.

But all that's been well discussed by the thread itself, so after that point things start getting really interesting.

cont. 2

>>30170376
>>30170487

>Because we have SOLID proof that the 4 alicorns have half the power of the world.
We don't. That's another assumption.
One that actually goes against your previous assumptions, regarding how for example love trumps all.
Twilight loves her friends, and is therefore stronger. Tirek is just doing it for himself, and is therefore weaker.
Or here's another one, Twilight as we know is extremely adept at magic, and has been known to copy advanced spells just by watching them being performed once. If we assume Tirek is a brute (he certainly comes across as one), Twilight can get away with using a fraction of the raw power but utilize it well.
Or we can assume there's a cap to the amount of power you can pump into a spell. Lasers for example get wider the stronger they are, and there comes a point where your laser is so wide most of the energy is missing your opponent.
Or we can make any number of equally valid assumptions.

>Daybreaker is a possible path that Celestia can take.
I'm not arguing against that, I'm arguing against the idea that she'd somehow outperform every other pony.

>Princess Celestia: It's Starlight Glimmer's. She's afraid this is what will happen if we continue to fight!
Daybreaker confirmed as Starlight Glimmer's dream and fears.

A transformation could very well be possible, but there's no indication the real Daybreaker would be anything like this one. Starlight doesn't know what Daybreaker would look like for example, nor would she know Daybreaker's real power.

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>>30170507
My previous statement was that friendship controls magic and protects the user's mind, not necessarily limits it. This is why Tirek becomes a literal retard when he drains Twilight and just starts punching trees in anger. Why Midnight Sparkle starts ripping up the borders between multiverses in search for more magic. Why NMM thinks shrouding the world in darkness is a good thing. Being corrupted by magic makes you want MORE power, at the cost of reason.

As for Twilight, you can clearly see there was no complexity to that fight. She was just firing massive death beams in sheer rage. For both blowing up her house and endangering her country and friends. But she did so for someone else, which is why she remained normal.

So with this in mind, how then does Twilight fight Tirek, fighting in a contest of raw strength, and somehow come to a stalemate without the sources of magic being equal in power?

And NIGGA I AINT DONE

>>30170487

>[To NMM] I never should have banished you to the moon. I should have destroyed you!"

Celestia's reaction to this is crucial. Glimmer stands up and spouts out the standard rhetoric on balance and harmony, but what does Celestia do?

She remains silent and hangs her head with wary eyes. Whatever Daybreaker said hurt deep, to the point where she even gets protective of Nightmare Moon by standing between their fighting and attempting to stop it.

What I'm trying to say is this: That Celestia is reacting such to imply that she once or twice thought that very thought. She could have ignored the elements and destroyed Luna if she wanted. But she didn't, because she loves Luna and as stated before, needs her to keep a hold of herself. When she brings Luna back to her in the dream, she becomes absolutely hysterical. She desperately wants Luna to help her, but Luna tells her that she can't and that she believes Celestia can do it herself. It reveals Celestia's deepest fears to fight on her own and risk transforming.

>>30170487
>But Celestia's reaction sells it as the continuation of an old argument. She's defiant, but at the same time, stunned. She never says she cannot turn, she says she will not.
To me it seems to say the opposite, that although she concedes that she could turn into Daybreaker, it is not an idea that had occurred to her prior to this.

Daybreaker is saying that to assure her that she is a realistic possibility rather than just a trick of Starlight's overactive imagination.

>>30170507
Shit, Celestia said that? I wish someone had pointed that out earlier, that's kind of a significant line.

Everything else that's being discussed is completely beyond me. Carry on.

>>30170507
>Princess Celestia: It's Starlight Glimmer's. She's afraid this is what will happen if we continue to fight!

Well it was her dream. Daybreaker herself clearly seemed to feed off Celestia's fears though.
If the dream was just Starlight's fears it'd have been easy for her to defeat both NMM and Daybreaker

>>30170898
>Daybreaker herself clearly seemed to feed off Celestia's fears though.
How do you mean? What exactly do you mean by "feed off"? Celestia states in the end "you are not real", how can a thing that's not real feed off of something in the first place?

>If the dream was just Starlight's fears it'd have been easy for her to defeat both NMM and Daybreaker
It was. And she did.
All it took was for Luna to point it out to her:

>Princess Luna: If you don't fix this soon, it could have a grave consequence on Starlight's psyche.
>Princess Celestia: But my magic isn't powerful enough! I thought if we worked together...!
>Princess Luna: I have your magic, remember? It doesn't work in the dream realm. It has to be you!

>Princess Luna: In order to defeat Daybreaker, you need only to trust in your strength as I do.
>Daybreaker: You can't destroy me! I'm everything you want to be!
>Princess Celestia: No, you're not! You are not real, and you will never exist again!
>Princess Luna: You did it!
>Princess Celestia: Only because you were here. I don't know how you do this alone.

Celestia has literally zero experience dreamwalking, and apparently got so dragged along she forgot she's got access to Luna's strength rather than her own.

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>>30166991
Let it never be forgotten.

>>30170640
>She could have ignored the elements and destroyed Luna if she wanted.
No, she might BELIEVE she can, there's no evidence that she can. She is, after all, getting dragged along in Starlight's made up dream-narrative.
But I don't think she even believes it, what's more likely is that it's a guilty fantasy she'd had more than any serious consideration. Throughout that entire segment she's looking up to Luna for a change, looking to Luna for help and guidance, and Luna is there by her side, telling her how to use her borrowed powers.

>>30171631
There is more to come

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>>30170979
>how can a thing that's not real feed off of something in the first place?
Did you just miss the Tantibus episode? Or every Dream episode we've seen? It's not feeding in a literal sense, it's using fears to become stronger, or remain present rather than disappearing. I mean, it's a nightmare, you lose the fear, it disappears. It can only do what you let it, in that sense. If you're not scared of it, it's gone

The fact Daybreaker herself seemed to shake Celestia has been discussed time and time in this thread, I'll pick out some key posts because I don't really want to repeat all the same points (next post)

Consider when NMM appeared. Did Celestia step down? No, she stood her ground and was ready to defeat her. When Daybreaker appeared, there was an immediate change in Celestia's behaviour.
And, how could there not be? It was her evil doppleganger in "physical" form out to literally destroy her Sister. If that's not going to shake a Pony, what would? It seems pretty obvious that Celestia feared Daybreaker and her remarks, and many seem to think Daybreakers remarks were made by preying on Celestia's fears and bringing them to light.

You saying that all it was is Celestia didn't know how to use dream magic then Luna told her seems to completely miss the point entirely. Luna never tells her anything with regards to how to use dream magic. Celestia stepped up to defeat NMM prior to this anyway, implying she knew how it worked but that's besides the point. Luna's words were comforting to Celestia, because they realised how much they needed each other, and Celestia only needed to believe in her strength, will and self belief that Daybreaker would not come to pass, she would not feud with her Sister again and that her and Luna have a close bond. Luna's words removed the fear from Celestia, and that's exactly how you defeat a nightmare. By removing the source of the fear and doubts

A few words weren't going to suddenly teach Celestia how to use dream magic.

>>30174866
Here are some of the key posts, sort of highlighting it on Celestia's end.

>>30136800
>>30143419
>>30137453
>>30137619
>>30137789
>>30143205
>>30143319
>>30143645
>>30150784

>>30168440
bedtime bump 4

up

>>30163642
>In the end she even scorched her own kingdom i
I think this is a bit of a stretch for Daybreaker. Nightmare Moon forced eternal Night because she snapped and wanted Ponies to appreciate the Night, even if it meant by force. Daybreaker didn't really have the same motive

>>30177059
>You don't need anypony, You can do whatever you want! All you have to do is get rid of anyone who stands in your way.

That's her motive right there, to rule unchallenged and alone.

>>30163642

I'd go with the interpretation that the Ashlands is what happens when the world completely ceases to make sense. Making even less sense than the world where Flim & fucking Flam somehow took over Equestria.
As Zecora says, the world is no longer on it's track. And like Starswirl's other spell, that switched cutie-marks, the "backstory" as it were, where Rarity acquired Dash's cutie mark, doesn't exist. The Ashlands world is so far off it's tracks it's completely ceased to make sense, even more illogical than the other worlds.

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>>30174866
>>30170979
While I'm not sure on the technicalities of dream magic, I do think it works largely on a self belief sort of way. You get rid of Nightmares by acknowledging they're not real, but even with that it still takes significant effort, considering how drained Luna seemed to be doing her job.
I think dream magic works a lot like normal realm magic, which explains why Celestia knew how to use it, but dream magic also needs that element of belief before you can apply it and evaporate a being


I'm interested though, anyone got any other theories or understanding of how dream magic works? Celestia did know how to use it immediately, it wasn't something she really had to learn and she's never even been in the dream realm before.

I can't remember, did she use magic when she got rid of Daybreaker and NMM in the episode? If I'm not mistaken Luna did when she dealt with the CMC nightmares

>>30135987
An Eclipse theme typically fits the sun more.

>>30177130
Wouldn't bringing everything down in fire and running free be a better motive? She is a slave to her people and is forced to put a smile on to keep harmony and peace whether she like it or not.

Anyone else gonna re-watch this when it airs on Discovery? I originally gave it a 10/10 but I wanna see if that was just a knee-jerk reaction or not
Honestly Daybreaker was one of the biggest pros to this episode since it leaves open the possibility of Celestia becoming a villain in the future, which I always thought could make for a really good season arc if done competently
inb4 >implying there's any competent writing in the show anymore

>>30178663
Kek you know you can rewatch it whenever you want, right?

>>30178560
>Wouldn't bringing everything down in fire
Literally what would be the purpose of destroying everything. You'd have nothing to actually rule.

Even Tirek didn't just destroy everything in his path

>>30178826
yeah sure, but I find the episodes more enjoyable when I discuss it with you faggots

>>30178524
>I can't remember, did she use magic when she got rid of Daybreaker and NMM in the episode?
She stands between their beams and blocks the beams with her wings, and "believes" in herself, once she whips opens her wings the magic beams fade away, and then Daybreaker and NMM fade away.

>I'm interested though, anyone got any other theories or understanding of how dream magic works?
Celestia is concentrating/straining when she's dispelling NMM and Daybreaker, so it is channeled magic like at least pegasus, changeling and unicorn magic is. Dream magic is NOT passive magic, and it is NOT "effortless" magic like using the Elements of Harmony.

Dream magic uses a focus, but is not limited to one focus and doesn't have it's unique focus. Instead, it seems to be woven into other kinds of magic and use that magic type's focus.
Celestia does it using her wings as a focus when she banishes the bad dream, similar to a pegasus sending a gust of magical wind.
Luna in Magic Sheep sends out tendrils through the grooves in her horn rather than from the tip of her horn, which makes sense if you consider her sleep spell a combination of dream and unicorn magic. Hard to say for certain with Luna though, her magic seems to operate on a level above other ponies, and she can do things like create storms without unfolding her wings or letting her horn light up.

bump
>captcha is mare

it knows.

So when Luna as Nightmare Moon was banished for all those years, Celestia was using her day magic to raise and lower the moon but did not protect Equestria's subjects from their nightmares.

Celestia doesn't need Luna for Equestria to work since things proceeded up until NMM returned. But Luna is needed for Celestia to keep on a path of righteousness, even being banished allowed for the hope of Celestia seeing Luna again or at least knowing she existed out there. However Luna's magic isn't needed for their world to keep on moving along since Celestia can move both the sun and moon to allow for all that entails.

>>30137103
It looks like it's fire anon

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>why have balance when you can have EVERYTHING
All that fake smiling could have it's toll. The day Celestia doesn't smile for that photo op, it's all over

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>>30179064
So dream magic is sort of a battle in the mind, in that it strains it?
That would probably explain why Luna was so tired and makes sense really. It'd also explain why Celestia was able to take to it quickly, rather than having to "learn" dream magic like you would a spell, or anything of the sort. It takes focus and self belief to destroy that which is plaguing the dream realm, and can't really be done through learning a spell

>>30175136
5

I just remembered Nicole Oliver plays an evil princess that wants to bring about eternal night in the 2nd Inuyasha movie.

Is there an mlp version of hypercrisis?

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>>30181202
>So dream magic is sort of a battle in the mind, in that it strains it?
There are three parts to doing magic in MLP:
>The source.
Dream, unicorn, changeling and pegasus magic (and probably others, except maybe alchemy) use magic stored in your body. Call it "mana" or "MP" if you want. This is the battery that's charging a spell, and this is what changelings feed on. Drawing from your magic battery leaves you physically exhausted, and you see it a lot with Twilight especially.
>The spell
Shaping the magic you're drawing into the right "shape", to get it to do what you want. This requires concentration and is mentally taxing, like doing arithmetic in your head. This is the part of magic that is taught, and the area that Twilight excels in. Doing advanced maths in your head for 8 hours straight will leave you agitated and tired as well, even if your "magic battery" is fine.
Simple spells like the one Celestia uses takes little concentration and theoretical knowledge, regardless of how much it drains your battery. Someone with an ounce of skill can pick it up on the first try and improvise simple spells on-the-fly.
Efficiency comes in at this point as well, the better you get at a spell the easier you can "shape" it, and the less mana it drains.
>The focus
Horn, wing, or possibly other implement used to release the magic. It's hard to say whether one horn is better than the next, but the movie will almost certainly answer that.. The important thing to note here is that wings become nearly indestructible while channeling magic, and horns heat up when they channel enough magic. A simple tap to the horn is enough to break the channeling, and this is painful, so channeling also makes the horn far more sensitive.

>>30182581

>changelings feed on magic

lolno.

You have no idea what you are talking about.

>>30182828
nice meme

Friendship is magic. As is love.

>>30140621
>not instantly cumming up with a perfect name
>>MareBreaker

bup

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Her magic is Red it seems

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>>30168399
>What causes Rage/Negative emotions to give them a power boost and take on new forms?
plz

>>30168399

That's a headcanon. In the show, positive emotions like love, friendship and harmony gives you a power-boost.

Rage makes you reckless, which of course makes you use what power you have at your disposal more offensively.

>>30168399
Adrenaline.

up

>>30175136
>>30181924
6

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>>30168399
>>30185273
>Rage/Negative emotions gives new forms
>headcanon

How, when Nightmare Moon and Daybreaker exist? Nightmare Moon is literally born from Luna turning bitter and she does seem to be amped up in terms of power levels. Where's >>30166991 when you need him to do the calculations.

Also these quotes
>If Luna can turn into Nightmare Moon, you can absolutely turn into me — Daybreaker! The better, prettier, and more powerful version of you!
>You don't know how powerful you are!

Sure, it's a nightmare so you can't take it completely seriously, but still, aren't Daybreaker and Nightmare Moon stronger than Celestia and Luna respectively?
Nightmare Moon in particular was doing a lot of crazy magic and even fought the Elements temporarily

I'm late to this party, but I'll chip in here. I've made a stupid headcanon to explain a few problem with the Daybreaker we saw in this episode. Namely, both Luna and Celestia knowing Daybreaker's name without prompting, which would be almost impossible if Daybreaker didn't actually exist at one point.

>The Theory
Daybreaker existed at the same time Nightmare Moon did, and they battled, exactly how the dream shows.

Luna became Nightmare Moon, for the same reasons already know. However instead of going immediately for the EoH, Celestia got upset. "She thinks /she/ is the only princess? If there is /any/ princess, it's ME." In so many words, Celestia was so upset by Luna's brazen claim that /she/ became livid, and thus, became Daybreaker. However Nightmare Moon defeated Daybreaker, breaking Celestia from that rage. It was /only then/ that Celestia turned to the Elements to defeat Nightmare Moon.

>But we saw this battle before in Twilight's Potion Flashback
I think this could be explained, similiar to how dreams work. Only Celestia and Luna knew about Daybreaker, so Twilight didn't know to imagine her in the battle, even subconsciously. She did know however that /Celestia/ didn't fight Nightmare Moon, so her dream shows Celestia running the entire time.

>>30189996
>both Luna and Celestia knowing Daybreaker's name without prompting
Celestia was literally told what her name was.

>>30189996
>Ways this theory patches things up nicely.

It explains why Celestia was afraid of Daybreaker in that dream, and why both Celestia and Luna knew who she was. Celestia was afraid because she knew that, given the right conditions, she could become /that/. She was also Daybreaker for only a few minutes, so to her there's still a lot of mystery surrounding exactly what she had become, and why it occurred. This fear subconsciously made Daybreaker stronger than Nightmare Moon in the dream, since, as with previous episodes, fear gives things power in dreams. To be clear, in reality Daybreaker is weaker than Nightmare Moon; Celestia only boosted her power because of her fear.

>Why she didn't fight NMM on her return
This is something that /just/ came to mind, but it may make sense so I'll toss it up for your interpretation.

Celestia didn't attempt to battle Nightmare Moon, and was either defeated or fled in Season 1 not because she didn't want to protect her subjects, but because she was afraid of becoming Daybreaker. If the EoH /did/ defeat Nightmare Moon this time around, then there would be nothing there to keep Daybreaker in check.

>The last timeline in Glimmer's Table Episodes
This would be Daybreaker's universe and timeline. It's important to note the difference in their motivations. While Nightmare Moon wanted the loyalty and love of her ponies, Daybreaker was clear in expressing no real interest in anyone but herself. This could, if left unchecked, lead to a near genocidial purge, and thus the wasteland we saw in that last timeline.

>>30190020
Octavia PoV when?

>>30189996
>Twilight's potion flashback
>I think this could be explained, similiar to how dreams work.
I'd argue against the rest of your headcanon if you had any tangible substance to argue against.
But this point is objectively bullshit. Twilight didn't have a dream, she saw the past. That was the entire point of the potion, to see the past and find out what was causing Everfree to go more haywire than usual. Twilight had no knowledge of plunderseeds, not even subconscious knowledge, yet she still saw them.

She hot.

>>30191455
>Twilight didn't have a dream, she saw the past. That was the entire point of the potion, to see the past and find out what was causing Everfree to go more haywire than usual. Twilight had no knowledge of plunderseeds, not even subconscious knowledge, yet she still saw them.

To counter this, Discord was directly observing, and somehow breaking into her vision. Wouldn't it be possible that he himself effected the vision to make her see them? He did seem interested in assisting Twilight, and he would have had the ability to do so. I wouldn't rule this out.

>>30192374
>, Discord was directly observing, and somehow breaking into her vision.
What

>>30192412
Discord was able to "play back" part of her vision after she left it, showing her crying. This at the very least shows that he was able to observe the same vision/dream/past she was in. This would open up the door for interference on his part. It's possible that /he/ added the plants to her flashback, knowing that otherwise she wouldn't be aware of them existing. Again, he was trying to help her, so this would be in line with his usual, round-about way of assisting ponies.

>>30192374

Convoluted as fuck.
Mental gymnastics like these are on par with "NMM is the only villain in the series".

>>30192420
>showing her crying
Because she was crying in real time too. The Mane 6 all mentioned it.
What's more, is the way she cried during the vision isn't remotely similar to what Discord showed. If he was tapping into it, he'd directly show that and it'd be pretty clear.

I think you're way off base here, if Discord knew everything she saw he'd also be smug af about it, but he was rather learning what she saw as Twilight told the group

>>30191455
I was about to refute his point but you did it for me.

His entire post is just stuff he's completely made up with no base at all. Some stuff in here are interpretations of events, this dude's just straight up saying we saw X but it wasn't really X. If you want to do that you could pretty much disregard most things we've seen in the show, which I guess is actually why people make so many headcanons. They delude themselves.
It was explicitly states as a way to see the past, Twilight saw the past, she had a vision, it wasn't just her mind making stuff up for her to imagine the battle.
Seriously probably one of the most tits up posts in the thread. Not to mention the constant use of "/", what's that all about faggot

>>30193652
You ever seen /tg/ say '/that/ guy'? It's meant to be emphasis and probably something he picked up from reddit or some other normie site.

>>30193719

I've seen /tg/ say That guy, but never /that/ guy.
You're in that it is normie speech, though. You see it in chatrooms especially.
Like emoticons, it's a way for simpletons to express their feelings and emphasize without having to think.

>>30193719
yes, it's old and rarely used now a days, but /tg/ used to say /that/guy once in a while.

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>>30189990
>>30185279
>>30185273
To add to this, I sort of think there's a dark force that works with them when they turn evil.

It does seem like there's a power boost, but it feels like it's combined with another force, maybe "disharmony" considering Luna was connected to the Elements.
The reason I think this is because of the transformation process in pic related. It wasn't just a simple turn, it was sort of an event, with Luna being raised up and then taking on a new form. That new form surely had to come from somewhere? Sharpened teeth, narrower eyes and various other changes. Power too maybe.

The comics actually showed this to be the case, but I know we're not sure on their canon so I won't really cite them. But to me it makes sense, also because when Nightmare Moon was blasted by the Elements, she was immediately remorseful, She didn't harbour any hatred, she immediately said sorry and even said she MISSED Celestia so much. Surely then, an internal part of Luna was still present that wasn't enjoying the destruction? She was full of love, it was like the Elements blasted away the evil haunting her that sort of combined with her.
Nightmare Moon became Luna after being blasted. I don't think it was a simple 180 in personality after spending 1000 years in the moon. There seemed to be more to it, the evil was gone. Could that evil that haunted Luna also be the cause of the perceived power boost as Nightmare Moon?

>>30194195
Also what do you lads think about this, interested

>>30194195
I think it's less a dark force and more that magic which is otherwise neutral amplifies the emotional state of the caster, causing a kind of physical manifestation of it.

Which begs the question, how were Celestia and Twilight both able to use dark magic, the stuff that Sombra was slinging around while moaning mindlessly about crystals in the season 3 premiere without ill effect?

>>30194195
Celestia also was stated to "Not remember" the incident she had with the dragon in the Journal.

And Sunset Shimmer especially was remorseful and in tears after being zapped by the Elements.

It seems that whatever magic changes them also possesses them/amplifies those dark desires into a separate being and whatever reasonable, logical part of themselves is locked away.

>>30194449
I believe it had to do with the fact that they didn't use large amounts of it. Twilight simply casted a shadow and Celestia projected some sort of scrying/visualization spell. They had to delve into bad emotions to use it, but they were able to walk away because it was for a utilitarian, non-malicious purpose.

Transformations seem to be connected to unleashing or using extremely large amounts of magic in a selfish way.

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>>30195456
>>30194195
I don't know what you can take from it, but we do have this from the new EQG specials that I noticed.

Sci Twi says that magic literally "Took control over her." That may or may not be lost in translation, but it's something to consider.

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How about the power boost thing, Does turning evil give Nightmare Moon and Daybreaker that?

>>30194449
>I think it's less a dark force
The trasnformation process we have seen seems pretty defined. It doesn't really look like a change in magic, but rather a complete change like >>30196976 mentions. The Elements seemed to destroy the "Nightmare" part of Nightmare Moon, to the point she became Luna and the negative emotions she carried as Nightmare went away.
Being defeated wouldn't really cause a personality change like that, but having your evil feelings amplified to a point where it's not really you anymore seems like it would, also explaining why Luna was so remorseful

>>30195456
>logical part of themselves is locked away
Yeah this is how I see it. It's there somewhere, but it's repressed and unable to show.

Fire

>>30197498
Magic is a hell of a drug.

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Huh.

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Interesting.