Submission is Mandatory #74

>>25600347
hello?

>Checking in

The next section of To be a Mother (Stormy Flare's story) should be tonight. It's much more story centric then the first part, if a little disturbing.

>Season 5 finale NMM open question.

There appears to be some speculation about how powerful each villain in, using the timeline to compare them. However, I feel like people have missed a /critical/ point that even I've missed until now.

NMM banished Celestia to the moon. How? Celestia needed the EoH to do that, but we can safely assume that the EoH wouldn't work for NMM, or the non-collected M6 right? Did NMM do that by herself with her own magic? That, to my knowledge, is the only evidence we have of /any/ character doing something that requires EoH levels of power. If that's true, and NMM is capable of EoH parity, then... well... that might make her the strongest villain in MLP. Thoughts?

>>25600464
After getting sent to the moon once, she might have had devised a plan to reflect its effects back to Princess Celestia.

Either that or she killed/hid her sister and told the ponies she was on the moon.

>>25600519
>Reflect the EoH
Possible, but Celestia couldn't weird them, so it would have been the m6. Celestia wasn't near them when the battle started, so she couldn't have been targeted.

>Hid/Killed her
Unlikely. The "Mare on the Moon" craters are visible, even though they disappeared when NMM left the moon in S1. Either NMM somehow created those creators again, or Celestia actually up there.

>>25600464
>Nightmare Banished Celestia to the moon. How?
I assumed she did the reverse of whatever she did to get back from the moon in the first place.

>That, to my knowledge, is the only evidence we have of /any/ character doing something that requires EoH levels of power.
It took the Elements to banish a single alicorn for a thousand years. Sombra did it by himself to his entire country.

Judging by the fact that we've seen that a sufficiently skilled unicorn can match an alicorn in power, I think it's safe to say the Elements strength isn't so much in WHAT they allow you to do, as much as they make whatever you're doing irresistible. I mean, NMM was the only one who even TRIED to resist the Elements, they were wielded by only one pony and she still couldn't do it.

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>>25600464
In the Umbra, Chrysalis and Tirek timelines. NMM came back, and was defeated/purified/resealed, even without the use of EoH. And she ended us as a clown in the Discord timeline.

So we know for canon that she can be defeated even without the use of EoH. Which means she's not particularly strong at all.

If anything Starlight is the Big Gun now. She fought Twilight's alicorn magic with her unicorn magic, while maintaining her own levitation spell... and won EVERY SINGLE TIME, unlike the other villains that have only won once. Twilight even admitted that there is no way she can defeat Starlight.

>>25600723
True that Starlight won every single time, but don't forget that Twilight was using up a large amount of her energy. You even see this effect when they reach the NMM universe, where Twilight couldn't pull off a spell. It is very likely that Starlight did have time to recharge for each battle, and she even has the strategic advantage of the situation.

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>>25600916
That happened only once, right after the long battle with Starlight. That left both of them equally exhausted, and had Starlight win by default, because RD decided to watch.

>strategic advantage
She had like 30 seconds more time, yes, but she had to maintain her own levitation spell. Advantages were on both sides.

I hope Oilbird continues to write Proportional Punishment.
http://pastebin.com/uY83evb2

>>25600723
>In the Umbra, Chrysalis and Tirek timelines. NMM came back, and was defeated/purified/resealed, even without the use of EoH. And she ended us as a clown in the Discord timeline.

This seems like the show forcing those events to happen. Those couldn't possibly occur without NMM getting defeated. Odds are, they probably didn't want a giant NMM flashback, and opted for smaller ones instead. This argument has been made before, and I don't find it very good. For all we know, those later timelines could have diverged from the "main" timeline at the moment the respective villains won

>>25600712
>It took the Elements to banish a single alicorn for a thousand years. Sombra did it by himself to his entire country.
Umbra did something, but we can't tell for sure how it worked. It could have been magically enhanced by his crystals, or something like that.

>Unicorn can match an alicorn
They can match a created alicorn, but we aren't sure about pure alicorns like Celestia and Luna. That hasn't been seen. >>25600916
Also makes sense.

>>25601480
>This seems like the show forcing those events to happen.
It made sense to me. Based on the different outcomes of the race, a new Mane 6 were chosen in each timeline.
In Sombra's, they didn't have a dragon to catch the Crystal heart, or a pony even more of a stickler to rules than Twiggles. In Chrysalis's, they didn't have someone connected well enough to Cadance to realize she was acting weird. In Discord's, he was successful in breaking them. In Nightmare's, Anon showed u-I mean, they weren't able to figure out where the Elements were hidden.

Seriously though, they were in the old castle, and Nightmare renovated it, how did she manage not find them?

>>25601480
We know the exact point when the timelines diverged, the moment of the first sonic rain boom. After that There was no more interference from Twilight.

We don't know if Starlight was disappearing too or not, but we never saw her play a major role in any of the alternate futures, other than that she caused them (she never took the throne for herself), so that's ambiguous.

If anything, the different timelines were a butterfly effect caused by "how" was the RainBoom stopped.

In one timeline Fluttershy fell on the ground but didn't make friends with the animals. In another one she made friends with the bullies and stayed in the Cloudsdale. Those were the changes that lead to different outcomes.

>Those couldn't possibly occur without NMM getting defeated.
Yes, which means that she was defeated. Be it by EoH-less Celestia or by other villains, NMM lost and it's canon.

>>25600464
That's stretching circumstantial evidence a bit. We have no idea under what conditions Celestia got sent to the moon.

Being able to imprison a pony in the moon is one thing; being able to overwhelm an alicorn who is actively fighting back with all available might, contain her, and safely seal her away while preventing any last-minute curses as Sombra did is quite another. The elements are the tipping point between those two situations.

Given that appears to be the sole 'win condition' for Nightmare, it doesn't seem likely she's above the elements in power level.

>>25601480
>>Unicorn can match an alicorn
>They can match a created alicorn, but we aren't sure about pure alicorns like Celestia and Luna.
Yeah, I make a distinction between created and uplifted alicorns in my headcanon as well. I think that fits the distinction between Celestia and Luna, whose domains are more mythic, and Cadence and Twilight whose domains are more grounded.

>>25601145
With in regards to Cadence, make it seem as if we have honor in some form?

>>25601145
I'm writing the next section now, Anon.
Should I repost the last update, since it was at the end of the previous thread?

>>25602040
>Should I repost the last update, since it was at the end of the previous thread?
Wouldn't hurt.

Alright.

>>25567445
>Well...if you’re going to get revenge for what they’ve done to you, nothing says that you can’t start their torment the same way yours did.
>Chained to a wall, struggling against your bonds while having no clue what’s about to happen.
>Plus, you have a guest right now.
>You should do what you can to entertain her.
>They can stew for a bit.
>Heading into your supply tunnel, you dig around, looking to see what kind of food you have that an herbivore could eat.
>It’s slim pickings.
>Stockpiling food has always been difficult without anything other than salt to preserve it.
>Plus, you’ve eaten alone for the past two years.
>You haven’t exactly had a reason have a big supply of vegetables, when you can hunt.
>Dried stalks and leaves to use as building material on the other hand...those you have in spades.
>Taking what you feel you can spare right now, you also grab a crude clay bowl.
>Pottery’s one of those skills that has evaded you over the years.
>With a short pit stop to fill the bowl with water, you start the journey down to your “guest” room.
>Instinctively, you step over the bits of rock jutting up in that one spot.
>You know the path to this room very well..
>It was yours before Tirek escaped.
>What?
>There wasn’t any reason NOT to take the good room with him gone.
>Entering, you see Cadance laying on the mat you offered her, staring at the wall, probably lost in thought.
“Hey.”
>She jerks, snapping back to the present as she looks at you.
“Sorry the room’s a bit bare. I uh...wasn’t expecting company.”
>”No, it’s...fine. It’s...kinda cozy, really. A nice change from the castle.”
>The look in her eyes betrays her.
“You’re a bad liar. Anyway, I wouldn’t be a good host if I didn’t try to feed you dinner, would I?”
>You set down her meal on a carved-out shelf.
> It may be a bit high for her, but it’s not like you could put it on the floor.
>That would be uncivilized.

>>25602106
“I know it’s not much, but, I was out looking for food when you three were uh...brought here. Plus. I don’t know what you ponies eat.”
>She shakes her head.
>”No, I understand, thank you…”
>Looking back down, she fidgets with her hooves, the silence heavy in the air.
>Just as you open your mouth, she blurts out, “I’m a prisoner too, aren’t I?”
>...Ho boy.
>That’s never an easy question to answer.
>’Am I a prisoner in Tartarus? When does my sentence end?’
>Crossing your arms, you lean against the wall, trying to look as nonchalant as possible.
“Now what makes you think that?”
>She waves a hoof around, gesturing in particular at the food. “The stone walls, the...bed, the food, there’s no other furniture-it all looks like the dungeons under the Crystal Castle!”
>...You don’t even know where to begin with that.
>She’s a stupid little rich kid who hasn’t gone more than a day in her life without servants, isn’t she?
>Cadance continues before you can get a word in. “On top of that, you sealed us in with a giant boulder, outside there are traps keeping us in, and that you expect me to sit around after you promised to torture my aunts!”
“Actually Cadance, if you think you’d be better off out there, dealing with all the monsters out there on your own, then you’re more than welcome to leave!”
>Before you realize it, you’ve taken a step towards her.
>You know you don’t have much, but you’ve giving her what you can, dammit.
>Her response is to jump to her hooves, her wings flared in the same way Celestia’s were earlier.
>”How do I even know it’s as bad as you say out there? You might be making it sound horrible to keep me too scared to leave!”
>You let out a humorless laugh, more like a bark..
“Really? If anything, I’ve been downplaying it! If you really want to see how bad it is out there, then tell you what:”

>>25602123
“If you want your aunts to eat tomorrow, then you and I need to go foraging. You’ll get to see what I deal with on a daily basis...but if you leave before that, then I’m not opening the door to let you back in.”
>”Which means if Tirek wins, I’ll never get to see Shining again. That’s how you’re keeping me here, instead of chaining me to a stalagmite, isn’t it?”
>Apparently she’s already visited Luna.
>That…might not be something you want to encourage.
“I take it Shining’s your husband? Be happy you even have a CHANCE of seeing him again. That’s more than anyone else gets when they’re sent here! You know...”
>Turning away, from her, you pace back and forth, not paying attention to her expression.
“That’s all anyone wants after a few years here. To go home, to see their family again. Right up until one point. It’s the moment everyone in Tartarus goes through.”
“It’s the moment when they realize everyone who ever loved them, everyone they ever knew is dead...and they didn’t even get to say good-bye.”
>You look back at her seeing that...well, her expression has softened somewhat.
>Those wings aren’t quite as raised.
>She’s young, isn’t she? For an immortal, that is.
>If she was anywhere near as old as her aunts, she’d know exactly what you’re talking about, instead of having an air of uncertainty around her.
“You really don’t understand how lucky you are, do you? Freedom to you means that you get to go home to your family and tell them about the horrible place you were for a while.”
“Freedom to me means I don’t need to worry about being eaten by an Orthos. That’s it. Any home I had, died centuries ago.”
>That one seemed to get to her. Her wings are back at her side, and she’s once again looking off in the distance.
>At least for a moment.

>>25602139
>She shakes her head and glares at you, ”Celestia always told me that the only beings she sentenced to Tartarus were monsters who couldn’t be redeemed or held anywhere else.”
>”If you’re here, then you must have done something unforgivable.”
>You shrug.
“Is that the lie she tells you, when she can’t even remember why she sent me here? Look.”
>You close your eyes and rub your forehead.
>This is the most conversation you’ve had in years, and it’s taking its toll on you.
“I need to go take care of a few things...you’ll probably want to wait outside. But I want you to ask yourself, if we’re all so horrible, then why give us immortality?”
“If it was so we could atone for what we’ve done, then why did she leave me here to rot?”
>You pause as you reach the lip of the ‘door.’
“To answer your question earlier, yea, you’re a prisoner. Just not MY prisoner.”
>Leaving her with her thoughts (or more accurately, to talk to her aunts), you head back to the main area of your home.
>It’s a simple matter to grab the rake you use to hide your tracks and push the boulder aside.
>Heading down to the end of your trap field, you get to work on brushing away the path the four of you have made.
>There’s not a whole lot you can do to hide the tracks leading up to the field, but the least you can do is keep them from having an easy time reaching you.
>Besides, by now SOMETHING probably knows there’s someone living in this area.
>Still, there doesn’t appear to be anything watching you right now.
>As you work, you run through your current todo list.
>You need to do something about Celestia’s escape attempt earlier...they both obviously need to be punished for it, it’s just a question of how you go about it.
>Flat out raping them would be too much, too fast, it could alienate Cadance...
>Speaking of the escape attempt, you’re going to need a new net, before you and Cadance go out tomorrow.

>>25601764
>>25601760
That's still a large jump from
>NMM is missing
To
>NMM is weaker than Celestia

A number of other things might explain why she's absent in the other timelines.

>Celestia found a cure for the nightmare without the EoH
>The stars never alined properly
>Luna's NMM state wore off after coming back to Equestria due to certain changes, and she returned her sister.

There is no clear coorrelation between NMM only wins one timeline, so she's weaker.

>>25602158
I guess I'll repost my response as well:

Frankly, [cutting open Celestia to get tendon to make a new net] is a level of gore I'm not entirely comfortable with. Maybe at some point if she does something spectacularly bad, but not right now - if we're worried about alienating Cadance with rape, disembowling her aunt isn't going to be much better. We were making good progress earlier; no need to throw it away on an instant.

For now, I like the idea someone posted a while back - about blindfolding Celestia, then leading Luna in and explaining that she is going to be punished solely because Celestia misbehaved again. Do something painful, but that sounds worse than it actually is: If we have something that could be used as a whip that makes a lot of noise, for instance, but doesn't actually go real deep.

Of course, getting practical things out of the way is a good idea too. Maybe take Cadance out on that foraging expedition first, get her tired out and scared of the reality down here, and then go to work on the sisters after we've assured the niece won't be running away.

>>25601920

Why do you figure that we have a huge amount of dom anon and sub ponies, but virtually none of the reverse?

Or that there's no Domination is mandatory or something?

>>25478431
>You remembered waking up in a holding cell.
>As you slowly came to, you looked around the room and saw… nothing.
>The room was entirely barren.
>Not “barren” as in “no decorations,” but “barren” as in it was /literally/ empty.
>But that’s not what caught your attention.
>What stood out instantly was the room’s /size/.
>It was massive.
>To the average Equestrian citizen, that would be a pleasant surprise — after all, no one enjoys being in a closet for weeks on end.
>But after working along side the Equestria’s security services for a number of years, you knew why large cells like this were used.
>When dealing with… exceptionally dangerous prisoners, be it griffon special forces or powerful cult leaders, extreme measures were needed.
>Sometimes a dozen mages were required to safely contain and control such prisoners, and set up proper restraints.
>To put it plainly, a smaller cell couldn’t possibly hope to hold so many ponies at one time.
>…
>But from your experience, the fact that you were in such a cell told you that you were in a high security government facility.
>Given the nature of your capture, there was an /extremely/ good chance that this particular base was off the books.
>As a Wonderbolt, you knew that a few of the ponies you captured ended up going to those sites.
>Unfortunately, you were never told exactly /where/ those sites were located.
>…
>You sat up slowly, and checked your wings.
>The cell, while helpful for those particularly dangerous prisoners, was entirely wasted on a pony like you.
>Pegasus can’t be mages, and they don’t have the raw physical size and strength of a griffon.
>You spread your left wing, and checked your feathers for any pressing injury.
>A Wonderbolt takes pride in their wings at any age, and you’re no exception.

>>25602670
>Your inspection of each delicate appendage was thorough, and took a few minutes to complete.
>Given your situation however, it was unlikely that stealing few minutes for yourself would be problematic.
>Fortunately, your wings were intact.
>A few ruffled feathers to be sure, but nothing that you weren’t able to fix.
>As you preened yourself, your mind began to wander.
>By now, you’d convinced yourself that this was about Spitfire.
>At first, you thought they might be bringing you in as a hostage, hoping to force her into surrendering herself.
>Tactics like that weren’t uncommon within the criminal underworld of Equestria, even through most avoided such extreme methods.
>You remember your blood running cold as the second possibility came to mind.
>What if… what if they planned to interrogate you? — To find Spitfire?
>The idea was frighteningly easy to accept.
>You’re her mother /and/ a former Wonderbolt yourself.
>They probably think that you’re helping the rebels fight, and are assisting Spitfire in her plans.
>Of course, that wasn’t true, but there was no way they knew that.
>You felt weak.
>You aren’t a young mare anymore.
>If they wanted to use… extreme measures on a older mare like yourself, you didn’t stand a chance.
>Maybe you could hold up for a few days, perhaps a week if you really tried.
>But unless they took care, after that long, your body would start failing.
>Free-Fall cages, waterboarding, and asphyxiation instantly came to mind.
>If they didn't to leave a trace of their actions, those were all viable options.
>But if they weren't concerned about your safety....
>You'd rather not think about what methods might be used.
>This new "Empire..."
>You know nothing about how their military, let alone their security services function -- no pony does.
>Slowly, you considered the idea you might /never/ see the light of day again.
>...
>Then again, that was already the case for most ponies.

>>25602724
>You come back to reality.
>Just as you finish re-adjusting a particularly resistant primary feather, you hear the door unlocking.
>Your ears quickly perk up, and your eyes instantly lock on the solid metal barrier.
>Releasing the feather from your mouth, your heart begins to race.
>You weren’t expecting them to return /this/ quickly.
>Quickly, you managed to sit up properly, just in time for the door to glide open.
>While you expected a wave of ponies to come pouring in, you were surprised when only a single, relatively unimpressive unicorn enters the room.
>You quickly scanned his body, but just like the unicorn from earlier, he's covered by a large, dark cape and hood,
>Do all of the unicorns wear that uniform now?
>"Hello Ms. Flare..."
>His voice was strangely calm, if slightly ruff.
>"It's such a pleasure to finally have the opportunity to speak with you personally..."
>That sent a chill down your spine.
>For a moment, you considered sticking to your training, and giving him only your name, rank, and service number.
>You quickly decided against it.
>That would seem like you were still in a military mindset, which would hint that you're part of the rebellion.
>Engaging in conversation was the only choice.
"Who are you? Why am I here?"
>"Who I am isn't important..."
>He replies, walking closer toward you.
>"You were brought here as a matter of great interest to the Crown.”
>The archaic language is… strange, but the meaning is clear, and only confirms your fears.
"You must have something wrong, I haven't done anything, or broken any laws, I-"
>He raised his hoof.
>"Ms. Flare, please relax, you aren't in any trouble..."
>”This is about your daughter, Spitfire…”

>>25602743
>Your heart stopped for a second, but you managed to maintain something /resembling/ composure.
”Spitfire?”
>He nodded, his expression remaining neutral.
>”Yes. If you wouldn’t mind, I’d like to ask you a few simple questions.
>Hoping to preempt his inquiry, you spoke.
“I don’t know where she’s at if that’s what you’re asking — I haven’t spoken with her in some time.”
>He smiled.
>”Of course not Ms. Flare, your daughter was secured by one of our teams a few months ago…”
>”It would actually be quite concerning if you did know her whereabouts…”
>You practically felt the blood drain from your face.
>Your stomach felt heavy; your legs, weak.
>Ignoring your panic, he continued.
>”You see Ms. Flare, I’d like to ask you a few things regarding your past, so that we can better understand Spitfire…”
>”Your cooperation is encouraged, and will help ensure that your daughter will still be of use to the Crown in the future.”
>The threat wasn’t lost on you, but the wording was… odd.
”What does “of use to the Crown” mean?”
>You carefully control your voice’s tone and tempo.
>Given your emotional state, it was critical that you avoid sending the wrong message.
>If you spoke incorrectly, he might not answer your question at all, or worse…
>”I’m afraid I can’t answer that question at this time, although again, given your cooperation, you may be informed in the near future.”
>You cursed yourself, thinking that you misspoke.
>You were fully aware of how bad the situation was — in a box at some unknown location.
>Odds were, no pony knows you were even taken, let alone where you were at.
>Your daughter was being held prisoner, and your cooperation is perhaps the only thing keeping her safe.
>The options were nonexistent.
”If I answer your questions… you won’t hurt her: right?”
>He nodded.
>”That is correct.”
>You took a deep breath.
”What do you want to know?”

>>25602835
>He retrieved a small scroll from his cloak, and a equally discreet… needle?
>You watched as he slowly sunk the needle into his skin, just above his shoulder, before pulling it out.
>The wound healed almost instantly; the only evidence of it’s existence being the blood left on the metal rod.
>He spoke with the same calm, relaxed tone as before, as if stabbing himself was an everyday event.
>”You damed Spitfire while you were still with the Wonderbolts, correct?”
>You recoiled; your mind only barely registering the question.
>It was a… strange question to be sure, but not particularly concerning.
“Yes that’s correct, I was still with the Wonderbolts…”
>He nodded, and wrote with his blood covered needle on the scroll.
>”And were you still actively flying with your unit at the time, or were you already serving in an administrative capacity?”
>Again, the question was strange, but not alarming.
”I flew with my unit for the first month, but once I found out I was pregnant, I stopped, and took up the desk.”
>He nodded.
>”So you didn’t know you were pregnant? Was Spitfire an unplanned foal?”
>By now, you were beginning to get suspicious.
>After looking at him for a moment, you decided that you could risk asking a question.
“Is there any reason why you’re so concerned about her birth? I fail to see how that’s important…”
>He shook his head.
>”Please answer the question Ms. Flare.”
>With a small sigh, you replied.
”We weren’t exactly… expecting Spitfire, no. She was our little surprise.”
>“Failed birth control?”
>Your ears dropped in humiliation.
>Unplanned parenthoods, while not terribly uncommon in Equestria, are looked down upon.
”Yes, failed birth control.”
>He nodded, still writing on his notepad.
>”And was it a condom, or did you use a potion?”
>You replied weakly.
”It was a potion.”

>>25602843
>That answer caused him to write an exceptionally long note.
>At least, that’s what you assume he’s writing; you can’t tell for sure.
>”And Spitfire’s father was Swift Wing, correct?”
>Your eyes went wide.
“How do you know that?”
>He continues to write, not looking up from his scroll.
>”We have access to all military records and communications from before our Empress’ reign; the communiques between yourself and Swift were particularly flirtations on a number of occasions.”
>Were they?
>It’s been years, you don’t remember-“
>”Please answer the question Ms. Flare, was Swift Wing the sire?”
>You paused for a moment.
>They probably already knew the answer anyways…
“Yes, yes he was.”
>More notes.
>According to official records, he died in a flight training accident a few months before you gave birth, correct?
>You nodded solemnly.
>You remember that day with painful level of accuracy.
>Getting the report on your desk…
”Yes, that’s correct.”
>”He wasn’t at fault for that accident as records indicate; his flight partner’s hoof-claws accidentally slit his neck…”
>The details again, are painful to recall.
>”That’s correct…”
>He again takes an exceptional amount of notes.
>”During your pregnancy, did you and Mr. Wing commonly accompany each other to bed?”
>Good Celestia this questions are strange…
>But if that’s what will keep Spitfire safe, you’re more than happy to share trivial, if extremely personal information.
“What do you mean by “accompany?” We didn’t have sex very often if that’s what you’re asking….”
>He shakes his head.
>”Cuddling, did Swift “cuddle” you on a regular basis?”
>…
>You almost had to suppress a smile.
>Your were kidnapped for /these/ questions?
>Of all the mundane, harmless questions, /this/ was the strangest.

>>25602869
>Then it crossed your mind that maybe he was delaying.
>Maybe he was getting a baseline of your responses, so that he could more effectively ask the /real/ questions later.
>If you remember correctly, that was something they discussed during interrogation training.
>The interrogators would start with simple questions, /then/ get to the more aggressive, meaningful inquiry.
>You remember having sincerely believed that you’d caught onto his plan.
”Yes, we did cuddle regularly — almost every night if I remember correctly…”
>More notes.
>But if this /was/ just a test, then why was he taking notes?
>”Were you restless while with brood? Did the embrace of a well drilled and loyal stallion help to calm your nerves?”
>…
>The question was so strange, you’re forced to interrupt again.
“I’m sorry, but I really don’t see the point in-“
>”Remember our deal Ms. Flare; please answer the questions…”
>You closed your mouth.
>As trivial as the questions may seem, answering them was helping to keep your daughter safe.
>But in the back of your mind, there was an… odd sinking feeling — like you were missing something.
>You swallowed, and tried to think of an answer.
>Unfortunately, your pregnancy was so long ago, specifics like that have faded away from your memory.
“I… I don’t recall, it’s been years…”
>He nodded, seemingly understanding your inability to answer.
>”Do you remember having trouble sleeping alone while pregnant?”

>>25602899
>Oddly, that was a lot easier to remember
>You did remember having trouble sleeping when he was late from training.
”Yes… actually, I do recall having a hard time sleeping alone…”
>But if that was true, then that meant that you /didn’t/ have a hard time sleeping with Swift…
>…
>How did he even /know/ that?
>…
>”And after his death, did you find other stallions or was your body only loyal to its sire?
>Looking up, you saw him writing furiously on his scroll.
“What do you mean?”
>He continued to write.
>”After Wing’s death, did you find other stallions to calm your body as you slept?
>Your body subconsciously grows tense.
>These questions… it’s like he’s /trying/ to humiliate you.
>Did he want to imply that you were some sort of whorse?
>There was no way he could have possibly known the answers to that question.
>You could say Celestia herself held you, and he wouldn’t know any better.
>Growing tired of his games, you chose to lie.
“No, I didn’t. After he died, I slept alone…”
>Realizing you may have sounded a little harsh, you continue.
“I was… recovering from Wing’s death — I just needed some time to myself.”
>The unicorn standing before you nodded, and wrote a small note before continuing.
>”You do realize that lying would be considered a breech of our agreement, correct?”
>You nodded.
“I know that, I-“
>”We have testimony from at least six different stallions who served underneath you during that time, all of which claim to have slept with you on at least ten, if not more occasions while you were pregnant.”
>”They claim that you requested their company, since you didn’t want to spend the night alone after Wing died, and that “it was what he would have wanted.””.
>Your tongue stops moving.
>You slowly close your mouth.

>>25602912
>He knew that?
>You were under the impression they were going into his blind — after all, who cares about these questions?”
“I…”
>He cut you off.
>”I’d assume that you simply had a lapse of memory, correct? Such things occur with aging mares like yourself…”
>You knew wasn’t being sincere, you’re retired, but no where need old enough for your memory to start slipping.
>No, he was offering you an outlet; an outlet which you /glady/ accept.
“I… I must have forgot, yes. I’m sorry…”
>He nodded
>”It’s no problem Ms. Flare, I’m certain you didn’t mean to lie to me.”
>For the first time since the questioning stared, he looked up, and made eye contact with you.
>His gaze was deep and piercing.
>You froze.
>”Tell me Ms. Flare, if Spitfire was with brood, do you believe the comfort of a stallion might be helpful to her as well?”
>…
>The question stopped you dead in your tracks.
>Spitfire?
“What do you mean?”
>Your voice was frantic.
>”Why does that matter? Is Spitfire pregnant?”
>For the first time, since the questioning began, the stallion looked up at you.
>Only then did you realize just how strange it was that he /wasn’t/ looking at you.
>His eyes were hauntingly calm.
>You began to panic, standing to your hooves as you tried to confront him.
”What have you done to Spitfire? Where is she?”
>The images flashing through your mind were terrifying — insane.
>They /couldn’t/ be true.
>As you took your first step forward, you felt a thick presence of magic coat your hooves and snout.
>You tried to scream, but couldn’t.
>Again, it was only a soft, muffled squeal.
>The stallion across from you casually rolled the scroll closed, and replaced both it and the needle into his cloak.
>”You may take this time to relax Ms. Flare, the Empress will be with you shortly, and speak to you about how you may assist the Crown.”

>>25602215
>Celestia found a cure for the nightmare without the EoH
Which means that Celestia defeated NMM without needing the use of EoH. (Thanks for helping my argument.)
>The stars never alined properly
Their alignment was prophesied, and there is nothing that suggests the events from Cloudsdale had any effect on them.
>Luna's NMM state wore off after coming back to Equestria due to certain changes, and she returned her sister.
So she uhh... defeated herself? Either way, Celestia kept the throne.

NMM lost to Clestia in 5/6 possible futures, (Sombra, Chrysalis, NMM, Tirek, Discord, FlimFlam), Even if we include the main timeline, where NMM defeated Celestia and then got defeated by Twilight and the elements. NMM's win rate against Celestia is just 28,57%.

If you want to play statistics, then if we assume that NMM and Celestia are equally strong, and both have 50% chance to win, then the chance that NMM would score only 2 or less wins is only 22,66%.

Celestia is stronger than NMM. Not so strong to win in every possible scenario, but she is clearly stronger. It's simple math, not a jump in logic. The correlation between someone loosing most of their battles and them being weaker than their opponent is absolutely clear.

>>25602926
>>25602926
Done.

This should be part 2 of a 3 (possibly 4) part story. Feedback, etc are all welcome. In the final entries we'll be going back to the present, (With the bag over her head, etc.).

>>25600464
Faust said she was always stronger than her sister but didn't control it as good.

>>25600723
Where did they say this?

>>25603481
>Faust said she was always stronger than her sister but didn't control it as good.
Source?

>>25603481
>Where did they say this?
The Cutie Re-Mark - Part 2

>Twilight Sparkle: Like I said, everything in the past affects the future, even the tiniest act. And what you're doing leads here. I know I can't stop you, but I thought showing you this might change your mind.

>Twilight Sparkle: She obviously has more talent for magic than almost anypony I've seen. My magic couldn't stop her. I had to convince her to stop on her own. Once I realized that, everything fell into place.

>>25602040
I just picked up a random story from the new pastebin list, Nuclear Throne, I just laughed so hard and you also got me interested in your stuff in general.

Any chance for an update? Just asking.

>>25603216
which ones did she lose in? also you're forgetting the seventh one, where there is nothing.

>>25603547
i can't remember, i really am sorry.

>>25603577
I mean the thing about NMM coming back ni the umbra, chrys and tirek lines

>>25603834
>i can't remember, i really am sorry.

Burden of proof motherfucker.

>>25602158
The one guy about using Celestia's sinew for the net had a good point but holy fuck not for just trying to escape the first time.

Damn what do we have available? Actually is Celestia's hair still ethereal? if not we could cut that as punishment and try patching it up unless camouflage is an issue. And no I wouldn't recommend using Cadance's.

We should also stress further at some point she's welcome to leave at her leisure. We'll lead her through the traps and everything. That offer will always stand as long as her abiding by basic rules, such as don't attack your host or fuck with his prisoners.

>>25603216
>28.57%

That doesn't match with the show's evidence at all.

>Season 1, NMM clearly defeats Celestia

>Flashback NMM vs Celestia
>"I'm sorry sister, but you have given no choice, but to use these (EoH)

If Celestia was actually stronger than NMM, then this would be hard to explain. The only reason why she beat NMM, in line with her own words, is because of the EoH. Clearly she can't beat NMM by herself. That gives Celestia, at absolute best, a 25% win rate against NMM.


Odds are, since the element of magic was never found in her school, she resorted to some back-up plan. Either training a ton of magicians, or something like that.

You can't claim that

Celestia > NMM, when the times we've seen them fight, Celestia was defeated. As>>25602215 said, there are a number of explainations for NMM not winning in the other flashbacks, even if we ignore the most likely explanation, which is that the show's writers wanted to show every enemy again at least once, regardless of how it might make sense.

>>25601480
>This seems like the show forcing those events to happen

I feel its more like, the more damage to the past, the farther it got from what actually happened. As in, she was turned back by the elements of harmony, until time was damage enough to where she never was.

>>25603812
>which ones did she lose in? also you're forgetting the seventh one, where there is nothing.
The futures NMM lost in were: Sombra, Chrysalis, Tirek, Discord, FlimFlam. The futures she won were NMM and Main.

I'm not forgetting the last one. There in no way to tell who won there so I don't know where to count it. The same goes for the other futures that we know happened (every time Twilight tried and failed to stop Starlight a new future was created), but were never shown.

>>25604083
>That doesn't match with the show's evidence at all.
Do we even watch the same show?

>Season 1, NMM clearly defeats Celestia
Yes, that's one of her two victories. I already counted it in. If I didn't, her winrate would be 1/6 (statistical chance of that or worse happening if she and Celestia were the same power = 10.94%)

>>"I'm sorry sister, but you have given no choice, but to use these (EoH)
That was thousand years ago not now. If you want to argue about what their strength was thousand years ago, then I agree that NMM /was/ stronger than Celestia... but she /isn't/ stronger now (S1E1). Thousand years is lots of time for their strengths to change.

That gives Celestia, at absolute best, a 25% win rate against NMM.
Umm... what? where did you get that number? That's not what we saw in the finale. Celestia wins 5/7.

>Odds are, since the element of magic was never found in her school, she resorted to some back-up plan. Either training a ton of magicians, or something like that.
She was training Sunset Shimmer long before NMM became relevant. She has a whole school for it! How is that a backup plan? It's what she always does.

What we know is that even without the element of magic Celestia still wins most of the time, how exactly she does that is a mystery.

>You can't claim that Celestia > NMM, when the times we've seen them fight, Celestia was defeated.
The only fight we saw was the one in the past (At whoch pont i agree NMM was stronger). We never saw any of the fights in the present. The only think we know about those, it that Celestia wins them most of the time.

>even if we ignore the most likely explanation, which is that the show's writers wanted to show every enemy again at least once, regardless of how it might make sense.
>My headcanon about the show writer's motivations is more canon than the show itself.

>>25602158
Were you not going to post any more of this tonight?

>>25605066
I think he's waiting for more people to put forward what to do, but I'm not sure what we could do about the net.
>>25602158
Maybe look through our stores see if we can't make one, even have cadence watch so that she has a skill we can make use of if this timeline's Tirek doesn't have an easy time of finding twilight.

We should deal with the net though, would use up a few hours leaving it time to tend to our prisoners.

>>25605253
As a guest, Cadence is obligated to help the host.

Gather some materials to make a new net and ask her for help in making them. Make small talk if you want.

Does anyone have a link to the hospitality book written 1000+ years ago?

>>25604861
>Do we even watch the same show?
lol

You're making a logical error in your reasoning here, so I'll repeat my self.

We we've only seen two instances of NMM fight. Season 1, and the past. Both times, NMM won.

The only times we've seen NMM "lose" is during the Season 5 finale, and against the EoH.

None of those happen on screen, thus, we can't say with any level of certainty what caused the "loss" to occur. All we know for sure is.

>Rainboom doesn't happen
>???
>NMM is missing from the future.

You're making a logical error is assuming that all instances of "???? (the off-screen events between the rainboom, and the alternate future) include Celestia defeating NMM. There are literally infinite other events that might have caused NMM's defeat, or absence. Any number of those exclude Celestia from the equation.

The burden of proof lies on you to prove that these battles between NMM and Celestia even occurred. It's possible that, in many of the timelines, she never returned, or was defeated by something else entirely. Remember that the prophecy was proven incorrect by Twilight before, so it's entirely possible that it failed at some other point again (timeline discrepancy). So it's possible she was still on the moon. It's entirely possible she became Luna without Celestia's interference. Neither of those count as Celestia winning, or being more powerful.

Thus, we're stuck with the following facts.
>NMM battled Celestia twice.
>NMM won both battles.

>Alternate Timelines exist there the Rainboom didn't happen.
>NMM is missing, or reformed in those timelines.

Furthermore, the entire (5/7) argument is flawed, because it only assumes that only 7 alternate timelines exist. There is no reason to believe this is the limit. Again, it's possible Twilight only saw universes in which NMM didn't win, and that those universes make up a minority of the options. Statistically, given NMM's on-screen undefeated record, that's a very likely option.

Bump for holy shit this thread has a raging for perfect Nightmare now. I get she's hot and stuff, but, wow.

>>25606926
This thread does have a perfect NMM bias, but I don't think that's what's going on. >>25606220
Actually makes sense, even if it's a rude and dismissive as hell. NMM isn't perfect, but she's stronger than Celestia. The entire pilot story was dependent on that.

>>25606964
NMM is this threads waifu. Pure and simple.

The finale really rocked me to my core... each alternate reality makes me feel sick. Not because I don't like them. But because I don't have the time or energy or focus or anything to explore them all.

>

>>25602158
>Once you’ve finished securing the safety of your home for the day, you head back inside, having a plan for how to deal with the alicorn sisters for this current incident.
>...Cadance isn’t waiting outside…
>She’s going to learn the hard way how loudly things can echo when living underground.
>You head into your bedroom, as ‘lavish’ as it is.
>It’s almost as bare as Cadance’s, there’s only a few extra knick knacks scattered through the room and an animal skin serving as a blanket to differentiate them.
>You’re here for one of those trinkets.
>Resting on a shelf is a carved bone.
>Picking it up, you look it over...it’s practically a work of art.
>Tirek spent years studying the shackles that new “inmates” appear with, and slowly but surely carved this bone into a working key to unlock them.
>It was a preferable alternative to breaking their legs to get those shackles off.
>That “skeleton key” (thanks, Discord) is simultaneously the most valuable and worthless thing you have.
>It’s so useful that any major group would love nothing more than to get their hands on it...and it’s too fragile to carry around with you.
>But you can’t just throw it away...it’s too big of a bargaining chip for that.
>Although, right now you’re going to use it for its intended purpose.
>You had hoped you’d be able to leave the two of them completely isolated from each other, but this is going to require a bit of presentation.
>Swinging by your supply tunnel, you pick up a few things that you’re going to need for this.
>A small knife, the blindfold you had made for Luna, and a fairly sturdy vine that should do the job.
>First thing’s first...Celestia.
>Entering her section of the final tunnel, you set down the three tools you brought in front of her cage, letting her try and guess what you have planned.
>If the noises coming from behind her muzzle are any indication, she’s not guessing anything pleasant.

>>25609551
>You make a point of not looking at her as you pull the torn net out, laying it out flat on the floor so the hole Celestia made (and you exacerbated to remove her) is plain for all to see.
>Doing your best to keep a completely neutral look on your face, you retrieve the blindfold and the vine.
>Approaching her cage, you finally look at her.
>Her eyes are smoldering with all the hate and fury they had before, but there’s a spark of something else there, now.
>A hint of fear.
>You hold up the blindfold.
“Celestia. I am going to put this on you. Are you going to cooperate, or is this going to be another battle?”
>If the way she jerks her head back is any indication, she’s choosing the latter.
>Luckily for you, she doesn’t have very much room inside that cage.
>Looping the vine, it takes you a few tries, the cage rattling all the while, as she hurtles what are no doubt insults, but eventually you do manage to catch Celestia with it, wrapping it around her neck, just behind her jaw.
>With her caught, you grab her by her horn for extra leverage and reel her in.
>Pinning the vine under your foot, you get to work on the blindfold, tying it around the still struggling alicorn’s head.
“The more you struggle, the worse this is going to be.”
>While you have the luxury of waiting for asphyxiation to force her to comply, you’d rather not have to wait for her to regain consciousness.
>The band isn’t over her eyes for long before her wings flare out, slamming against the bars of her cage before jerking closed again.
>The half-flaps repeat again and again, the rest of her going almost perfectly still, her limbs quivering from the effort as she tries to force her wings back under her control.
>...You’ve seen this.
>This is the same sort of anti-crash instinct that gryphons have, isn’t it?
>This wasn’t your intended effect, but it certainly could be...fortunate.

>>25609555
Olibird got trips

>>25603789
>Any chance for an update?
Unfortunately, not any time soon, sorry. I have my hands full right now, and it seemed to be one of my less popular stories. Still, I'm really glad you enjoyed it, thanks Anon.

>>25605253
>I think he's waiting for more people to put forward what to do
Y-yea, that's totally what it was. I didn't fall asleep in the middle of writing it or anything.

>>25609555
Looking forward to more.
I need to know how this goes.

>>25609595
Now now...you guys need to tell me if you're going to take advantage of this opportunity or not.

>>25609623
What were we originally trying to do again?

>>25609623
We aren't covering her ears right?

>>25609623
If you mean >rape, then no.

Maybe taunt her a little? "Your Sister took being blindfolded far more graciously than you, maybe you should be more like her?" or something.
I dunno.

>>25609654
What about keeping her like this while we do the same to Luna while she is also blindfolded?

>>25609663
>>25609654
Wait, I mean lightly torturing Luna while keeping her blindfolded, all the while whispering softly in her ear encouragements, like how brave and dutiful she is, and how you respect her. Maybe add in a few words on how she is better than Celestia because she actually accepts her punishment.

Meanwhile Celestia (who is still blindfolded) will hear the sounds of torture and the crys of pain, but not the words you speak to her.

>>25609654
>>25609623
Yeah, taunt her that Luna didn't freak out over being blindfolded. Do it just loud enough that Luna can hear you praising her, indirectly, over Celestia.

>>25609866
Well, I think we shouldn't taunt too hard, but do make it a little mean-spirited, comparing her to Luna.

File: Castle_of_the_Royal_Pony_Sisters_in_the_distance_S1E02.png (599KB, 1280x720px) Image search: [Google]

599KB, 1280x720px

>>25606220
>We we've only seen two instances of NMM fight. Season 1, and the past. Both times, NMM won.
No we didn't. We saw the fight in the past, where NMM won. I already recognized that NMM was stronger in the past.

The fight int he present? We never happened on screed as you say. And there is nothing that implies that there even was a fight. Celestia could have just taken a vacation and let Twilight handle it to make her grow. You know, like she decided NOT to fight Sombra and let Twilight handle it, instead?

The burden of proof lies on you to prove that this battle between NMM and Celestia even occurred. (Pic related: banished-alicorn-less moon providing evidence that the battle in the present day did NOT happen.)

>It's possible that, in many of the timelines, she never returned,
In every single instance we actually saw (S1E1, main timeline) she DID return. So there is a proof that she is likely return, and literally nothing that suggests otherwise.
>or was defeated by something else entirely.
Which means that she was defeated by someone else, which means they were likely more powerful than her. And if nothing else we saw Luna in Discord's timeline. Meaning that either "someone" defeated NMM (most likely Celestia, because if NMM would have won against her, then she would banish Celestia on the moon, and we saw Celestia being discord's clown as well). This proves there is at least one instance where NMM lost.

The other futures we saw... she might not have lost, but there was no eternal night so we know for sure that she didn't win.

>Remember that the prophecy was proven incorrect by Twilight before
Could you tell me which episode was this in? I'm not saying you're wrong, I just honestly don't remember it.

>It's entirely possible she became Luna without Celestia's interference.
And you're basing that on what? Nothing in the show indicates that this is possible.
(cont.)

>>25610296
(cont.)
Thus, we're stuck with the following facts.
>NMM won against Celestia thousand years ago. (main timeline)
>Celestia didn't win a battle against NMM in the present day... though nothing says there even was a battle (main timeline)
>NMM was defeated by "someone" (Discord's timeline)
>NMM didn't win in any other future we saw (Sombra's, Chrysalis's, Tirek's, FlimFlam's timelines)

>Furthermore, the entire (5/7) argument is flawed, because it only assumes that only 7 alternate timelines exist. There is no reason to believe this is the limit.
Nope I already acknowledged their existence >>25604723. Futures where we don't know what happened are exactly that, "futures where we don't know what happened". The lack of data does not help either of our arguments in any way.

>Again, it's possible Twilight only saw universes in which NMM didn't win, and that those universes make up a minority of the options.
A sample of any size (in our case 7 futures we saw - including the main timeline and, not including the empty timeline), selected randomly (timeline discrepancy) from a larger set (every timeline we saw plus those that we didn't), has the same distribution as the larger set itself.

>it's possible Twilight only saw universes in which NMM didn't win, and that those universes make up a minority of the options.
Possible but unlikely. 22,66%, assuming that Celestia and NMM are equally strong and fought in every isngle one of them including the main timeline (where there is not proof the battle actually happened). It rapidly decreases if we assume that NMM is stronger (if NMM was strong enough to win 2/3 of her battles against Celestia, the chance of her record being 2/7 or worse is just 1.65%), and grows if we assume the futures where NMM didn't win didn't include any fight at all.

Statistically, given NMM's newer-won-a-battle-on-screen-in-the-present-day record, the most likely option is that she gets wrecked by Celestia most of the time (in the present day).

>>25610296
>The burden of proof lies on you to prove that this battle between NMM and Celestia even occurred. (Pic related: banished-alicorn-less moon providing evidence that the battle in the present day did NOT happen.)
We can safely assume that Celestia was in ponyville during NMM's return, since she was expected to appear, and ponies (mayor mare), had almost certainly seen her before her "reveal." Why did NMM go to ponyville if it wasn't to get her sister? There is significant circumstantial evidence that they crossed paths. If that wasn't the case, the again, it's unlikely NMM would have been worried about some random unicorn. Clearly she no longer saw Celestia as a threat at that time.

>In every single instance we actually saw (S1E1, main timeline) she DID return. So there is a proof that she is likely return, and literally nothing that suggests otherwise.
There is proof that, in an unaltered timeline she returns. That does nothing to proof that it would also hold in altered timelines.

>Which means that she was defeated by someone else, which means they were likely more powerful than her.
Not disagreeing, if she did return, then she either disappeared, or was defeated. If she was defeated or reformed by Magical Power X, that does not in any way proof the initial claim that Celestia is stronger than NMM, which was the basis of this argument.

>Could you tell me which episode was this in? I'm not saying you're wrong, I just honestly don't remember it.

The transcript reads:
>Mare, mare... aha! The Mare in the Moon, myth from olden pony times. A powerful pony who wanted to rule Equestria, defeated by the Elements of Harmony and imprisoned in the moon. Legend has it that on the longest day of the thousandth year, the stars will aid in her escape, and she will bring about nighttime eternal!

By the very nature of Eternal Night not existing, the prophecy was proven incorrect.

>>25610449
>A sample of any size (in our case 7 futures we saw - including the main timeline and, not including the empty timeline), selected randomly (timeline discrepancy) from a larger set (every timeline we saw plus those that we didn't), has the same distribution as the larger set itself.

That doesn't apply to sample sizes this small. Suppose the sample size was 3, and event X occurred in all three samples, and event Y occurred 0 times. That would indicate a 100% success rate. However, suppose that event Y had a 25% success rate. It's entirely possible that the sample is not indicative of the actual distribution.

To my knowledge, the proper sample size for your rule to work is anything 1000+. 7 is far too low for that to hold true.

>Statistically, given NMM's newer-won-a-battle-on-screen-in-the-present-day record, the most likely option is that she gets wrecked by Celestia most of the time (in the present day).

Again, there is a burden of proof that
>She returned
>Celestia was the cause of her defeat
>Celestia defeated her without assistance

Those can't be proved with any level of certainty, so your percentiles are entirely based on the assumption that Celestia actually fought NMM in direct combat. To treat them as statistical evidence of Celestia's strength is a flawed argument. At absolute best, it proves that some unknown factors made it difficult for NMM to win.

>Creation of the EoH without the Rainboom
Is it possible that the EoH were formed without the rainboom?

It's also possible the EoH were still formed by the M6 at a later point, or by different ponies entirely. A few of the later villians (Discord, Tirek), could only be freed if the main timeline was followed until that particular point.

Both Discord and Tirek must have been freed by the actions of the M6 or their families. If the timeline wasn't similar, those things ever would have occured.

>Statistics

Final point that I've missed entirely. All we know is that, at point X, NMM was missing. She, in practice, must have defeated the most villains to "win" the battle series. By contrast, Tirek, being the last "villain" to appear, would have a 50% chance of winning by default.

>In order for the NMM timeline to be true, she would have have had to defeat:

>Celestia, Sombra, Chrysalis, (Discord, Fim Flam, Tirek).

The number of villains she would have battled would have made her victory difficult, but again, it does not prove Celestia defeated her. Sombra, or Chrysalis might have done it. Even Discord, Tirek, etc are all options.

The percentiles that you are using are based upon poor logic, and in no way indicate the relationship between NMM and Celestia. Again, the "show writers wanted to show off all the villians" feels, simply by gut, to be the likely explanation here. Otherwise, things like Tirek Discord, and Flim Flam are extremely difficult to explain.

File: Nightmare_Moon_chasing_Princess_Celestia_S4E2.png (1MB, 1920x1080px) Image search: [Google]

1MB, 1920x1080px

>>25610449
>>25610504
>>25610565
>We can safely assume that Celestia was in ponyville during NMM's return.
Yes, I suggest she went there, waited for NMM to appear, and then left without battle to let Twilight take the spotlight. Yes, NMM went to Ponyville to get her sister(meaning that NMM considered Cleestia serious threat), while Celestia was like "She's not even worthy my time, even my student can handle her." Implying that Celestia > NMM.

There is significant circumstantial evidence that they did NOT cross paths. The only time we saw they did caused significant collateral damage (pic related), while Ponyville was completely unharmed. Everything point to the conclusion that there was no battle in S1E1.

>There is proof that, in an unaltered timeline she returns. That does nothing to proof that it would also hold in altered timelines.
Actually we know she returned in 3 timelines (Main, NMM, discord) while there is not a single timeline where we know she did NOT return. Even if we assume that NMM's return is a matter of chance and not a certainty, then the likely hood of her return is still between 79,37% and 100%. (If it was any lower then the most likely outcome would be that NMM would return in only 2/3 or less on screen scenarios.)

>By the very nature of Eternal Night not existing, the prophecy was proven incorrect.
Good point, I now agree that the prophecy is bogus. However NMM's return is still between very likely to certain (see above).

That doesn't apply to sample sizes this small.
Nope. The /distribution/ is the same for sample of any size, even if you picked just one.

You are correct that the /reliability/ of the outcome decreases along with sample size though. To be exact it is "1/sqrt(N)" (Monte Carlo error rate)... which means that the error rate in our case (N=7) is 37.78%. Pretty bad, I agree, but still much better than any other evidence we have. My hypothesis (Celestia > NMM) is more likely to be correct than incorrect.
(cont.)

>>25611043
(cont.)
>your percentiles are entirely based on the assumption that Celestia actually fought NMM in direct combat.
Yes they are. And if those fights didn't happen, it only shows that NMM can't even win against Celestia's B-team.

It's also possible the EoH were still formed by the M6 at a later point.
No, twilight clearly stated that their friendship didn't happen. In the other story lines. EoH being formed by other ponies is possible, but there is no evidence supporting that claim (burden of proof).

A few of the later villians (Discord, Tirek), could only be freed if the main timeline was followed until that particular point.
Nope. Discord as freed by the CMC, all of which lived in ponyville even before Twilight showed up and M6 formed. And we know absolutely nothing about how Tirek escaped, nor have anything to suggest that M6 had anything to do with it at all.

>The number of villains she would have battled would have made her victory difficult, but again, it does not prove Celestia defeated her.
Yes it is. None of the other villains except discord had power to Move celestial objects. So unless you want ot claim that NMM's last act before her defeat was to put the sun back in it's place, it means that in every single one of those scenarios she was defeated by Celestia. Making her /weaker/ than every other villain, since Celestia defeated her in every other scenario, while only defeated the other villains in some.

>Again, the "show writers wanted to show off all the villians" feels, simply by gut, to be the likely explanation here.
>feels, simply by gut,
My argument is based on not-very-reliable (62,22%) math and the canon information in the show. Yours is based on "feelings".

>Otherwise, things like Tirek Discord, and Flim Flam are extremely difficult to explain.
The explanation is very simple "Celestia > NMM".

>>25611070
>Yes, NMM went to Ponyville to get her sister(meaning that NMM considered Cleestia serious threat), while Celestia was like "She's not even worthy my time, even my student can handle her." Implying that Celestia > NMM.
It has been abundantly clear that Celestia's judgement is poor. Sending Twilight to get Sombra, when she only survived due to pure luck, etc. This sets a terrible precedent for comparative logic. Using this, Celestia viewed Chrysalis as a bigger threat than Sombra, who banished an entire kingdom, and needed both her and Luna to defeat before. It clearly doesn't make sense.

>Everything point to the conclusion that there was no battle in S1E1.
Except that Celestia was entirely missing until NMM was defeated. We know alicorns can sense each other's magic. NMM would have gone after her sister first (as she did before). She probably wouldn't toy with the M6 unless she had already taken care of Celestia.

>Actually we know she returned in 3 timelines
>likely hood of her return is still between 79,37% and 100%.
What? If NMM returned for 3/7 scenarios, that's not even 50%

>Nope. The /distribution/ is the same for sample of any size, even if you picked just one.
But to use it as actual basis for argument is poor form, when it's reliability is so low.

>My hypothesis (Celestia > NMM) is more likely to be correct than incorrect.
(cont.)
Again, in the event NMM returned in those timelines, we don't know who defeated her, thus it can't be contributed to Celestia.

>NMM can't even win against Celestia's B-team.
TIL The EoH is Celestia's B-Team.

>No, twilight clearly stated that their friendship didn't happen.
Twilight also doesn't know that as a fact in all cases. How does she know they weren't friends in the Tirek or FF universe?

>>25611070
(cont.)
>Nope. Discord as freed by the CMC, all of which lived in ponyville even before Twilight showed up and M6 formed. And we know absolutely nothing about how Tirek escaped, nor have anything to suggest that M6 had anything to do with it at all.
Tirek was freed because Cerberus left the gates of Tartarus. That was caused by Twilight and her friends. Making changes in the M6 would obviously change the CMC's dynamics. The odds of them getting into an argument in front of Discord was already low, and making changes could change it drastically.

>The explanation is very simple "Celestia > NMM".
You've still failed to address.
Again, you can't say that, because NMM was missing, Celestia defeating her is the only solution. What if she won, but lost to Sombra? etc. I'm honestly tired of repeating this. You can't assume Celestia is the only explanation for NMM's absence in later timelines. Thus, you can't claim Celestia is stronger.

>>25611289
>Sombra, who banished an entire kingdom, and needed both her and Luna to defeat before
Maybe that was a trust issue with Luna? Celestia had three options regarding her:
>Send Luna, who has a history of going crazy and trying to murder me, to the stallion who uses magical mental manipulation to make ponies go crazy,
>Go with Cadance and Twilight "Oh god help my mentor's watching my every move, time to panic!" Sparkle, and leave Luna, the one who launched a coup for the throne, in charge of Equestria and hope she gives it back when Sombra’s gone.
or
>Send the Elements of Harmony, the only alicorn we can spare, her husband who can defend a city by himself, AND a squad of guards, and pray.

None of those sound very good to me, but if she's still afraid of Luna, choosing the third one makes sen-

>TIL
Oh. Go back to. >>>/reddit/

>>25611289
(Cont.)

Just as a proof of concept, what is wrong with the following ideas?

>Discord Timeline
NMM defeated Celestia, but was later defeated by Celestia.
>Tirek Timeline
NMM defeated Celestia, but was later defeated by Tirek. Unicorns move solar bodies.
>FimFlam Timeline
>NMM defeated Celestia, ??? happens, and the brothers take over. Unicorns move solar bodies.
>Chrysalis Timeline
NMM returns, defeated Celestia, moved to Canterlot, and lost to Crysalis. Unicorns move solar bodies.

It's not difficult to think of any number of reasons why NMM might have lost, without involving Celestia. There is a burden of proof that Celestia herself defeated her. We've literally never seen evidence that occured, with the sole exception being the Sombra timeline.

>>25609555
>Celestia’s battle to reign in her instincts allows you to finish tying the blindfold, securing it against her.
>It’s only then that you pull the vine away, letting her breathe again.
>Her sides heave, her breathing erratic as her head slowly sinks to the ground, her wings still twitching all the while, threatening to snap open.
>It would be cruel to interfere with that battle.
>You know what else would be cruel?
>Condemning someone to an eternity in hell.
>You reach a hand in, ready to slap her wing and drive her into a frenzy...but an errant thought gives you pause.
>Cadance.
>Ooohh, you would love nothing more than to show Celestia the same cruelty she’s shown you...but if you move too quickly, you’d risk alienating your guest..
>You only have a few cards, and you need to play them right.
>Just in case Tirek screws up as badly as Discord did.
>Taking your hand back, you set the vine back down, next to the knife and yell out, loud enough for your other prisoner to hear,
“You know Celestia...your sister took being blindfolded much more graciously than you. She didn’t even struggle!”
>”Hrrm mrrf!” is the best response you get.
“I think I know who the smarter one is, between you two! It’s the one who doesn’t flail around like a wounded animal!”
>Leaving her to struggle with her instincts in solitude, you head down towards Luna’s room, key in hand.
>As you enter, she quickly climbs to her hooves, her wings half raised in concern.
>”Human? Is it...my turn?”
>Any jovial mood you had from tormenting Celestia quickly dies.
“Luna. You’ve been good, so I’m only going to give you a warning, but we’ve been over this. You will address me as master, is that clear?”
>With her ears still standing at attention, no doubt listening for any sign of her sister, she opens her mouth, taking a moment to fish for the right words.
>”Yes...master. Is it...my turn now, master?”

>>25611860
>With a fake sigh, you sit before Luna.
“Yes, it is.“
“But I want you to understand, what we’re about to do is not what I was originally planning.”
>Well, it’s a half truth. You hadn’t planned anything before.
“I was going to ask you why your sister was so quick to abandon you before. But...well, she tried it again.”
>”She tried to escape again?”
>Before you have a chance to chastise her, she quickly adds, “Master?”
>You smile to show her that was acceptable.
“That’s right, she did. This time, she destroyed something very valuable. So, I need you to come with me.”
>Leaning forward, you carefully unlock her shackle before standing up.
>Luna tenses up, her eyes watching you, waiting to see what your next move will be. “Why is that...master?”
>Getting up in a kneeling position so your height matches hers, you look her in the eyes.
“I’ll explain on the way. But I want you to know. I am sorry for having to do this.”
“You have been nothing but cooperative, you’ve been extremely well behaved. But, because of Celestia, I have no choice.”
>Standing up, you place your hand on her back and feel how tense she is.
“Come on.”
>With a firm push, you guide her out of her room.
>Fear marks her every step as she obeys, letting you move her along down the hall despite her apprehension.
“You are being very brave, Luna.”
>Her ear turns to listen, but she keeps resolutely staring ahead.
“I mean it. Your sister would be fighting me every step of the way, but...you understand what needs to happen, and I respect that.”
>As you enter Celestia’s room, you position yourself to obscure Luna’s vision of her, keeping her from getting a good look as you guide her over to the torn net.
“Do you know what this is, Luna?”
>”Yes...master. It’s the net you used earlier.”
>Glancing over, you see Celestia’s ears stand at attention, the mare frozen inside that cage.
>”Mmoonuuh?”

>>25611871
>Luna starts to turn her head to look at her sister.
>Gently, you place your hand on her cheek and guide her attention back to the net, pointing at it.
“That’s right. Now, does something look different about it to you?”
>With a questioning look, she says, “It looks as though something tore a hole in it.”
>She’s well aware that you’re treating her like a child, but this isn’t for her benefit.
>This is for Celestia’s.
>With another glance, you see Celestia is too busy fighting with her wings to form a proper coherent thought.
>Not that it matters with that muzzle on.
“Almost, Luna. Not something. SomePONY. Your sister destroyed it because she tried to leave you and Cadance alone with me, again. She wanted you to suffer in her stead.”
>Celestia erupts, protesting as best she can with a fury of “Mm-mm! Mrrmm-mm!”s.
>Still trying to keep Luna’s attention on you, you bend down and trace your fingers over the frayed edges.
“You can see teeth marks here, and here, and she used her horn to split it over here.”
>”Sister..is this true?!”
>As Luna starts to turn to accuse her sister properly, you catch her muzzle, guiding her to look up at you.
“I have no reason to lie, Luna. Not about something like this.”
“You and your sister may not realize this, but down here, everything has to be made from scratch.”
“Proper rope is especially hard, one of the most valuable things out here, because it’s as necessary as food and not everyone CAN make it.”
>Beings without hands tend to use the exact kind of vine you’re holding.
>You actually keep it specifically for emergency repairs...but they don’t need to know that.
“This is the only net I have, and your sister destroyed it. Now, I know you had nothing to do with this. But your punishments are linked.”
>As you speak, Celestia starts to call out, but any coherency is destroyed by her muzzle.
>Luna's eyes grow wide and she takes a step back.

>>25611887
>”Huma-master, please-what if I were to repair it?”
“No, Luna.”
>You grab ahold of her necklace thing, holding her there as you reach down and pick up the vine-the closest thing you have to a whip.
>Unfortunately, you aren’t able to stop her as she twists her head around, seeing her sister locked in that cage.
>”Celesti-!”
>With a sharp yank, you pull Luna forward, tearing her gaze from her sister.
>There isn’t much you can do to stop the white alicorn’s protests, save for speaking over them.
“She needs to see the consequences of her actions! She needs to learn what it was she just tried to condemn you to!”
>Raising your makeshift whip high, you bring it down, cracking it against Luna’s back.
>”Niiiieee-aaahh!”
>Luna half-whinnies, half-screams out, probably more in terror than in pain.
>The whip isn’t exactly made out of tough material...but you can see a red line faintly appearing under her fur.
>...Maybe members of royalty have low pain tolerances.
>You doubt these two have ever been in a non-magical fight in their lives.
>Still, you doubt this hurts worse than an open handed slap, it just sounds much, much worse than it is.
“I’m going to give your sister the exact same punishment, Luna.”
“Now, we’re going to twenty lashes, and I want an apology for all your crimes after each strike. If you don’t, then it doesn’t count. Start.”
>With her ears pressed to the side of her head, she squeezes her eyes shut.
>”I-I’m sorry, master!”
“Two.”
>You crack the whip over her back again, a second line joining the first, “Nnnn! I’m sorry!”
“Three.”
>Celestia’s hoofguards clang against her cage as she redoubles her protests, whether to curse you out or apologise to her sister, you aren't sure.
>It doesn’t matter, though, as her words are quickly drowned out by the cracking of your whip.
>”Nuuh! I’m sorry!”
-

>>25611898
>You make it until eighteen before she slips.
>”Guuaahh!...I’m sor...I’m…s...”
“...Eighteen again..”
>She jerks, looking at you, her eyes filled with terror, tears threatening to fall. “No, wait, plea-Gaah!”
>Delivering the extra lash with a thundering crack, you pull the whip back and give her a moment to try again.
>As you wait, you can hear Celestia sobbing, her horror at what she thinks you’re doing to her sister overriding any instinctual reaction from the blindfold.
>”S-sorry...I’m sorry…”
>...You know…
>If this punishment is more for Celestia’s sake, then you can afford some mercy.
>It’s not like Luna’s been the one fighting you.
>Bending down, you whisper in Luna’s ear, your free hand stroking over her chest.
“Hey, you’re doing a very, very good job, and I’m very proud of you. We’re almost done, just two more.”
>Panting heavily, Luna nods vigorously and squeezes her eyes tight, taking a deep breath as she readies for the last two lashes.
>With a reassuring pat to her breast, you raise your whip, ready to begin the final two strikes.
“Nineteen.”
>You bring the whip down for its penultimate strike, when it catches on something, the vine slipping right out of your hand.
>What in the world?!
>”Stop. Hurting. Her.”
>You whirl around to see Cadance glaring up at you, your makeshift whip pinned under her hoof.

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>>25611289
>>25611324
>>25611403
>It has been abundantly clear that Celestia's judgement is poor.
Celestia's judgement has ALWAYS worked for the best in the main timeline, in one way or the other. Seems pretty reliable to me. Are you saying that it was all just by luck? What an unlikely coincidence.

>What? If NMM returned for 3/7 scenarios, that's not even 50%
Did you miss the part where I pointed out that "there is not a single timeline where we know she did NOT return". NMM's return rate is not 3/7, it's 3/3

>But to use it as actual basis for argument is poor form, when it's reliability is so low.
Still Infinitely more reliable than "gut feelings".

>Again, in the event NMM returned in those timelines, we don't know who defeated her, thus it can't be contributed to Celestia.
Like I said before:
>Yes it is. None of the other villains except discord had power to Move celestial objects. So unless you want to claim that NMM's last act before her defeat was to put the sun back in it's place, it means that in every single one of those scenarios she was defeated by Celestia. Making her /weaker/ than every other villain, since Celestia defeated her in every other scenario, while only defeated the other villains in some.

>TIL The EoH is Celestia's B-Team.
There weren't even any EoH in the other scenarios. Meaning that if NMM didn't loose to Celestia, she lot to EoH-less Celestia's students (or someone else who didn't thave the EoH).

>Twilight also doesn't know that as a fact in all cases. How does she know they weren't friends in the Tirek or FF universe?
That's exactly my point, she /doesn't/ know that, and neither do we. Which leaves us with the know universes (Sombra,Chrysalis,NMM) where she is not frinds with them. that's 3/3 with no friendship and no EoH.

There is SOME evidence that EoH do NOT exist in the alternate timelines. there is NONE evidence that EoH DO exist in the other timelines.
(cont.)

>>25609579
Heh its ok I forgive you sleep tight dear prince

>>25609683
I like you. That is really good.

>>25611914
....You spit on Luna's resolve.
Do not force the rope out from under her hoof. We don't want to fray it and be forced to discipline her too.

Luna you have two more lashes. I don't want to stop while you're doing so well. Why don't you talk with Cadance. (If she manages well enough, we let her off explaining that we were touched by her sincerity. She can choose to stay and watch Celestia's punishment. Cadance will need to leave though. (Let Luna watch how her sister squirms with such indignity under the lash, while she persevered and triumphed. In fact maybe lessen the amount Celestia has to take, explaining that the punishments and rewards can be equal.

During it we can have Celestia thank Luna with each whip.)

>>25612044
(cont.)
>Tirek was freed because Cerberus left the gates of Tartarus. That was caused by Twilight and her friends. Making changes in the M6 would obviously change the CMC's dynamics. The odds of them getting into an argument in front of Discord was already low, and making changes could change it drastically.
So Twilight and the CMC are the only ones with power to argue in front of a statue or lure out the Cerberus out of Tartarus? Neither of those requires EoH, and could have been done by more or less anyone.

>Again, you can't say that, because NMM was missing, Celestia defeating her is the only solution.
Her return is nearly certain (79,37% or more). And her not-victory is nearly certain as well.

>What if she won, but lost to Sombra?
We saw Celestia in that timeline, pic related.

>You can't assume Celestia is the only explanation for NMM's absence in later timelines. Thus, you can't claim Celestia is stronger.
I'll respond to this on idividual basis in the four cases you brought up, but the general answer is "there is Sun in all the other timelines", and (except discord's timeline) it would only be there is NMM lost to Celestia or her B-team. Thus Celestia is stronger.

>NMM defeated Celestia, but was later defeated by Celestia.
NMM banished Celestia to moon, discord appeared few years after that, not thousand years later. There was only one fight between NMM and Celestia int hat timeline and NMM lost it.

>NMM defeated Celestia, but was later defeated by Tirek. Unicorns move solar bodies.
Yes, before the age of alicorn sisters, They use dot do that with their magic. The magic that Tirek needed to steal first before he became strong enough to battle alicorns. Therefore the solar bodies couldn't have been moved by the unicorns and NMM had to lose to Celestia

>NMM defeated Celestia, ??? happens, and the brothers take over. Unicorns move solar bodies.
So... are you saying that NMM LOST to Flim Flam? I... uhhh... alright, I'll give you this one.
(cont.)

>>25612089
(cont.)
>NMM returns, defeated Celestia, moved to Canterlot, and lost to Chrysalis. Unicorns move solar bodies.
So, the unicorns moved the sun in some time between NMM's defeat by chrysalis and being eaten by her swarm? Alright. Therefore NMM lost to Chrysalis. Chrysalis defeated Celestia thanks to being boosted by Shining armor's love for Cadance. Do you think that Shining armor (captain of Celestia's royal guard) and Cadance (created Alicorn), were still relevant parts of this timeline at the point in which Chrysalis attacked? Because if no, then she was defeated by un-boosted Chrysalis, meaning that NMM is weaker than un-boosted chrysalis, which is weaker than Celestia.

If they were part of those timelines, She was defeated by boosted-chysalis, meaning she is equally strong as Celestia. And the reuslt of NMM vs Celestia fight is 50-50 at best (None of Zecora's people mentioned there was no sun for a few years, nor that NMM was defeated by Celestia).

In any of these scenarios NMM had to be defeated by Celestia or someone weaker than Celestia. Meaning that NMM is weaker than Celestia, her B-team... or villains that Celestia defeated without the EoH in other timelines. The outcome is still the same, "Celestia > NMM".

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>>25612072
I do not want Cadance and us having a yelling match.

Our sessions and her being our guest needs to be separate in their mind. After the session we should ask her if this is going to be a problem with her and if she would like us to find a way to separate her from them during these sessions which WILL continue.

If not is there something we can do to make it easier on Cadance? Maybe watching, giving more support or something? She is a guest, and we're sorry our prisoner's situation upsets her, but if this happens again there will be repercussions.

Olibird I feel like I'm helping you write a story of quality and I love it

>no stories about Applejack

How disappointing... There is so much potential.

>>25612289
Think that kind of stuff is low hanging fruit though.

>>25612089
>No, but they would be the first to do so in literally 1000 years. In the case of Tirek, even longer.

>Her return is nearly certain (79,37% or more). And her not-victory is nearly certain as well.
Again, I'm not sure where you're getting this number.

>Original Story = Return
>NMM arch = Return
>Discord = Return
>Sombra Arch = ?
>Flim Flam = ?
>Tirek = ?
>Chrysalis = ?

How are you getting 79% out of that?

>NMM banished Celestia to moon, discord appeared few years after that, not thousand years later. There was only one fight between NMM and Celestia int hat timeline and NMM lost it.
How exactly are we supposing she got reformed? We haven't seen any established evidence that anything besides the EoH can do that.

>Yes, before the age of alicorn sisters, They use dot do that with their magic. The magic that Tirek needed to steal first before he became strong enough to battle alicorns. Therefore the solar bodies couldn't have been moved by the unicorns and NMM had to lose to Celestia
You're claiming that Tirek needed to consume magic from literally every unicorn in order to do that?

>So... are you saying that NMM LOST to Flim Flam? I... uhhh... alright, I'll give you this one.
So... are you claiming Celestia LET Flim Flam do that? I... uhhh... alright.

>Chryalis
Are you implying that only the love from Shining Armor is capable of being so strong? She could have taken it from any number of ponies, and stored it. She could have poisoned NMM, etc. The list is long here.

>>25611914
Cadance clearly doesn't know her place. While we shouldn't punish her for this, we need to make sure she stops interfering.

Tell her to leave, and promise that she can come back to comfort her aunts /after/ we're done punishing them, but is not allowed interfere while the lessons are in progress. If she tries to fight you, catch her, tie her up, and carry her to her guest room, so that she cool off and think about how rude what she did was, while we finish punishing Luna and Celestia.

Only speak with Cadance when it's time to go foraging for food. We are both going to leave the cave, and she will have to agree to our rules if she wants to return.

Also, while we're making her agree to our rules, we will require her to agree to punishments for breaking those rules. Meaning that if she acts up, we will be able to punish her without her being able to claim that we are unjust or cruel.

>>25611914
Tell Cadence the truth: you're saving their lives. You're inflicting a little pain now to save them more pain later. They're like children in Tartarus; they have no idea how to behave properly, and you're just teaching them lessons Celestia forced you to learn on your own.

At east they've got food and shelter, you didn't have that for how long?

>>25612450
>>25612535
I was wondering where everyone else was!

>>25612450
I want to try to have Luna cement her position mentally by having her persuade Cadance away.

Having her explain to Cadance will also show us where her head is at.

If Cadance continues to be obstinant, I like your idea of hogtying her but it may cost us the rope we use to do it. She won't stay quiet unless we can tie her perfectly.

If we are forced to do this we should
>Pats Luna's back
>"Master n-no!"
"I won't hurt my guest Luna, I'm the host, but there are some house rules and she needs to leave so we can finish."
>Luna's aggressive stance, settles back to her submissive stance after she learns you won't hurt Cadance.

>>25612535
I like the twist on it being lessons Celestia forced on us, and we're just showing what we've learned. We should definitely use that at some point when conversation and context allows it.

But I don't see the saving their lives part. That just sounds like bullshit to be honest and she'll call us on it. Could you elaborate?

>I like your idea of hogtying her but it may cost us the rope we use to do it.
Fair point. How about we use the shackles that the three of them came with? Or why don't we use both. We're not going to be fixing that net right now, are we? We can keep spanking Luna with our bare hands.

I don't want Cadance to be punished for this, but I'll be damned if we let go of a chance to tie up a pretty pony princess.

>>25612745
>I like the twist on it being lessons Celestia forced on us
That's incorrect. Celestia and Luna did this together, so they are both equally guilty. I think it's important that Luna knows she's not being punished only because of her sister, but because of her own actions as well. Otherwise she would have nothing to feel sorry for. If she didn't help send us to the Tartarus she would be out guest just like Cadance, and wouldn't be getting whipped for Celestia destroying our net. If she doesn't blame herself, she's never gong to accept her punishments and see us as as her rightful master.

So I come home from work to see SiM has a hell of a lot of new posts so I'm expecting Oli has kicked into overdrive and dropped a large amount of green or maybe one of the other authors has done the same. Imagine my surprise when the posts are just some frosty sunfag shitting up the thread because he's butthurt his waifu has been relegated to background/cameo character. I'd say that's something I'd have expected happening to /moon/ but that place has been really chill as of late, and for quite some time now.

Anyway keep up the good work Oli I'm thoroughly enjoying you work, like always.

>>25600723

Also in the Discord timeline we see Celestia and Luna, so that mean in that timeline somehow Luna was "purified" without the Mane 6

>>25611914
This is why I was thinking we should take Cadance out foraging and reinforce just how dangerous it is out there, and how 'safe' it is with us.

That said, I do agree that giving Luna an opportunity to talk with Cadance is the right initial course of action here. We should prepare for the contingency that Cadance violently disagrees, but overall I like the idea of letting Luna talk and offering us an excuse to be 'merciful'.

Also agreeing with just tieing Cadance up and putting her to the side for a moment, not actually hurting her. It shows A, we're not a monster 24/7 (even if we actually are) and B, helps us get to Luna.

>>25612535
>>25612745
I'd like some variant of these.

>>25612745
>But I don't see the saving their lives part. That just sounds like bullshit to be honest and she'll call us on it. Could you elaborate?
Eh, maybe that was a bit much on my part. I just meant that they're reaping the benefits of his centuries of experience. They won't have to starve, and any pain they feel, if they don't do what they're told, is purely self inflicted.

Anon should do everything he can to show himself dominant, fair, and the most-aggrieved party. If he can do that, then that should play right into the weaker points of Luna's psyche.

>

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>>25613200
Fair enough. And I agree with your analysis, though I feel like harping on that will make the point feel hollow.

>>25613040
I can't handle anons liking my ideas.

wasn't lurking for some time, did we got a update on BB?
i still remember the space part of last dump

did i miss much?

Anybody have any stories pertaining to foot fetishes? Foot fag reporting.

>>25611914
>>25612072
>>25612126
>>25613200

Why don't we ask Cadance "Why?" in regards to not hurting them? She needs to give us a valid answer.

I do like the idea of having Luna reinforce our position by letting her speak.

>>25612072
>I like you. That is really good.
Thanks.

>>25612072
Shouldn't we rather establish our own dominance, rather than letting Luna resolve this for us? I mean, yeah Luna is more likely to talk Cadance out of this than we are, but isn't it more important to establish our unquestionable authority over them?

We shouldn't be needlessly violent, but they need to know their place. If we allow Cadance to talk to us like this, she's going to resist us later on as well. She didn't even call us "Master". She wasn't asking, she was ordering us like we were one of her subjects.

>>25615280
"Why? Tell me why I shouldn't do this."

We need her to give us a good answer. Tell her that her 'not wanting to see them get hurt' is not valid.

We told her from the beginning that such a thing will happen, and we for all intents and purposes are justified.

We may as well show her what it would be like if we were actually trying to cause massive amounts of pain.

Offer to demonstrate because the things we done so far are just love-taps in comparison.

Maybe ask if she wants to be the one to take the punishment instead if she cares so much.

>>25615280
>>25615397
The thing is there is a large difference in guest and prisoner. She has to obey our house rules but we're only slightly more dominant over her while we are immeasurably more dominant over Luna and Celestia.

A guest can leave and until she realizes how bad it is out there, that's a very real option for her.

After it hits her then we'll have further dominance.

As for punishing her? We CAN'T it would completely demean our word. Especially if we offer her to take their place. The whole point of not taking her too was that we'd be no better than luna and celestia.

And showing her what it would be like for massive amounts of pain would have the same effect of raping that we were trying to avoid.

The only dominance we have are house rules, which she might have broken by not calling us master? I mean it wasn't really a sentence that needed it.

This would be a good chance to establish the house rules once we resolve this.

>>25615280
And it would be a good idea to mention we are not one of her subjects, this is not her kingdom. Its ours.
If she orders us again she will be out the door....er...rock

>>25616169
The first part is a good idea.

Establishing the Host-Guest-Prisoner rules.

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I'm too gentle for this work, I love the little ponies dearly.

>>25618603
And you're a nazi... what does that make us?

>>25609579
>Unfortunately, not any time soon, sorry. I have my hands full right now, and it seemed to be one of my less popular stories. Still, I'm really glad you enjoyed it, thanks Anon.
That's ok, I'll keep my hopes up anyway. Keep writing, you're doing great.

>>25619555
Trips? Just a minute away for my birthday? Such is my luck.

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>>25618369

So, any more ideas on dealing with Cadance?

How about asking her on what [i]her[/i] solution/punishment would be, and breaking it down?

We can't just let them go, because if Tirek loses, then there is no guarantee that Celestia would even let us out despite words from Cadance and Luna.

Olibird where for art thou?

Up while waiting for Olibird,

>>25619303
>2015
>making fun of nazis
Fascismism isn't okay, MM. Ask yourself: do you really want to be know as a fascistist?

>

<

Need to know her kingdom for a safeword's ending

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>>25621838

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bumping w/ unrelated content, But it has best waifu at least.

Page 10 go away.

>>25628059
Olibird another day? ;_:

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>>25628157
I shooouuuuld have something for you guys later tonight. Have a Moonie to hold you over.

To go full blog post at you guys: I did NOT expect this to blow up the way it did. I was on a short vacation from work when I started this, but...well, vacation's over and I need money so I can eat. So green will be a tad slower.

>>25628298
Work a shit.

You're good, m80. We're just enjoying the new hotness.

>>25627132
I've long, long wanted to see this comic go somewhere. The adventures of a random human and a pissed-off Nightmare trapped in some wasteland.

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>>25628298
You underestimated your story premise.

;P friend

>>25628298
As long as we get to have Twilight as well, it is all good.

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>>25629984
Where is Twilight anyway? She has the alicorn magic, so why doesn't she walk in to rescue the other princesses?

Maybe she doesn't /know/ that Celestia and the others are in Tartarus yet... but as soon as she finds out, she's going to try to get them out and we're gonna have a very powerful and very angry princess knocking on our cave-door.

Also, if she is hiding form Tirek, why doesn't she hide inside Tartarus in the first place? Tirek said that he can't get anyone out, so Twilight knows he's not going to pursue her inside, because he'd get stuck.

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>>25629984
Oh my god the idea of sending out our princesses to capture twilight. Seeing them interact through that would be amazing but i'm not sure we'd feasibly be able to do that. As our manipulations are built on being wronged, and twisting them to give up the trappings of power to be ours.

The minute we betray set upon principles the chains made of those foundations would crumble. But its definitely something to look out for.

Though it seems a consensus that Cadance will not be ours, seeing as she is happily married to shining and would shun our approach.

We're trying pretty hard to not be an obvious monster. Or at least one that doesn't deserve to be condemned since they made us, twisted as we are.

Twilight though would be free game if Tirek leaves her alive. Maybe we could discuss a trade. Twilight's mentors now mentors in servitude. But this is all quite far in the future.

We have two alicorns to break and one to correct.

Hopefully before I have to turn in for work xD

>>25628298
I love you please keep going.

>>25630258
She might not know about it. I'd see Tartarus as a high level and sensitive secret, most other civilizations not really able to deal with those sealed away so forgetting or concealing the knowledge (Not like every civilization has gods, though damn that'd be interesting no?)

Twilight is awfully new, I'd be surprised to learn if Cadance even knew about Tartarus.

Seems like a thing you'd share after your peer's emotions have been deadened a bit by the passage of time and are less 'naive'

"Oh by the by there's a pit of eternal suffering where we put all the worst criminals together unsupervised and without trial, given immortality so that they can't escape through death."

Seems like something that would shatter a naive new alicorn princess.

>>25630306
Twilight knows how to get to Tartarus as far back as Lesson Zero.

>>25630258
Assuming the events of Twilight's Kingdom are proceeding outside (with some minor alteration) then Tirek has only just hit Canterlot a few hours ago. He's probably involved in the big laser fight or something.

>>25630430
He did say this timeline was different though and he can go any which way he likes with this.

Aw geez what are we going to do about Discord and Tirek?

Also what? Where? I didn't see anywhere mentioning Tartarus in lesson zero?

>>25630496
Fuck, I meant It's About Time. Mixed up my episodes there.

>>25611914
>About a dozen different thoughts rush through your mind as you take in the sight before you.
>Celestia’s sobbing stops, the clanging from her cage hinting that she’s gotten up.
>She no doubt thinks Cadance is saving Luna from some horrendous fate.
>Finally, you blurt out,
“Why?”
>Cadance pulls back, equally as shocked as you. “Wh-what do you mean why?”
>Luckily, that gives you time to collect your thoughts into something half-coherent.
“Why should I stop? I’m teaching them both a valuable lesson.”
“Celestia’s seeing first-hand the pain her actions inflict on others, and they’re both learning what happens when you destroy supplies, just as painfully as I had learned it.”
>”No.” Cadance resolutely shakes her head, her eyes squeezing shut for a moment before she resumes that angry glare.
>”This is just you torturing them as part of your sick revenge! If /I/ broke something, would you tie me down and start beating ME, too?!”
>...There’s no good answer to that, and you know it.
>Telling her no would spark a massive argument, she’ll demand they ‘only’ receive the same punishment that she would, and it’ll lead to her resenting you or demanding to leave.
>Telling her yes would mean that she’s your prisoner.
>You need to change the subject if you’re going to win this.
“Well, now you’re just insulting Luna.”
>Luna jerks her head to look at you as they both speak up simultaneously.
>”What do you mean, master?”
>”How am I insulting her?!”
>”Wait, no.” Cadance half shouts out, not letting you get a word in.
>She shakes her head once again as she continues, “You’re deflecting, I want an answer!”
“I’m not deflecting, though. You have this completely wrong! Look at her! I haven’t restrained her in any way. I haven’t needed to.”
>You circle around your captive, tracing a hand over her back.

>>25630542
>Luna quivers as your fingers trace over the lash marks, the skin raised, an angry red under her fur.
>Cadance merely points a hoof at the caged form of Celestia and deadpans.
"She’s not the one being whipped! I-just wait a moment. Luna?”
>You lean down to Luna’s ear and whisper to her again.
“Her interrupting us like this is completely unacceptable. Now, I get the feeling she’ll listen to you, so if you want this to end peacefully, then you need to get her out of here.”
>Cadance pipes up, ”I can still hear you perfectly fine. It’s what YOU’RE doing that’s unacceptable!”
>Your hand soon finds its way to your forehead.
>Sometimes you wonder if EVERY species in this place here has better hearing than you.
>And a better sense of smell, and actual natural weapons…
>Yea, if it wasn’t for your endurance, you’d be even worse off than you are now.
>A hoof rubs against your leg, drawing your attention.
>Looking, you meet Luna’s gaze, her expression telling you all you need to know..
>”May I speak to her in private? Master?”
“No, of course not. Anything you have to say, you can say in front of me.”
>Luna deflates against you, that determined look fading.
>”Very well...Cadance, he is right. I must request you leave at once.”
>”Mrrmmr?” Celestia calls out.
>”Auntie, you can’t be serious…” Cadance’s defensive posturing begins melting away.
>”I am. I need you to abide by...master’s house rules, while we are here. It is the only way to ensure your safety.”
>Cadance stomps her hoof like a mature pony. “According to who, him? Just because we don't have magic doesn’t mean we’re helpless!”
>”We can handle ourselves, you don’t need to subject yourself to this!”
>You make a point of turning away, and instead trace your fingers over Celestia’s cage, acting like you’re occupied with something.
>Enough to loom over the conversation, but without seeming concerned.

>>25630559
>”Cadance. There is only one pony who would know better than I, what horrors await here.”
>...Well, you suppose you aren’t a PONY. Otherwise you’d have an issue with that.
>“The fact that he has allowed you to stay as a guest, instead of simply...as you put it, “tying you down” and doing horrendous things to you, proves he is above most creatures we’ve sent to this pit.”
>Cadance cries out, ”But that’s exactly what he’s doing to you!”
>Luna giggles.
>”This? This was nothing I could not handle, my dear niece. Master made sure of that.”
>”Before you interrupted, I was assisting hi...master in demonstrating to my sister what torment everypony she’s banished has gone through.”
>You purse your lips together.
>Interesting how she’s trying to make it sound like she’s blameless...that’s something you’re going to have to fix.
>You’re also going to need to up the intensity of her punishments.
>”Does that include what YOU went through when she banished you?”
>Woah, wait, what?
>Twisting your head back around, you look over the two non-caged alicorns.
>If Celestia was the one who banished Luna to the moon...well, no wonder she’s been so cooperative.
>”Yes, my niece, it does. I learned first hoof what horrors accompany a thousand years of imprisonment...but she has not.”
>”She shies away from it, she won’t even discuss the matter with me. My sister has attempted to bury it, just as she attempted to bury my existence from history.”
>Celestia clangs against the bars, her horn poking out as she calls out to her sister in muffled protest. “Mrrrnnaa! Mrrrmf!”
>In response, Luna joins you against Celestia’s cage, gazing up at her sister.
>The look on her face...hooo boy, you know that look.

>>25630575
>That’s the look of a fury that’s simmered for centuries.
>”It is something that will be much more difficult to her to teach if you interrupt. But she will learn, won’t she, master?”
>Celestia jumps back in her cage at the sound of her sister’s voice being so close, crashing against the rear bars.
>”You’re not auntie Luna, are you...you’re…”
>You can taste the fear in Cadance’s voice.
>Maaayyybe you should shut this down.
>You’ve been confused since Luna said Celestia was the one who banished her.
>”Do you see a helmet on my head, my dear niece? Is my fur black?” Luna whirls around to face Cadance again.
>“I have not reverted to old ways. I simply agree with master. Celestia needs to learn this lesson.”
>Out of the corner of your eye, it looks like Luna’s mouth is still moving-you’re at the wrong angle to tell what she’s saying.
>Whatever it was has an immediate effect on Cadance.
>She takes a shaking step back, freeing your whip before she looks at you, her pupils shrunk down to pinpricks, “Huma-master, whatever you are...What did you do to my aunt...?”

>>25630591
Chilling. We good to give input or you've got more?

God I love this.

>>25630644
That's it for tonight. Feel free to give input.

>>25630591
...this, I did not forsee. I don't quite get the game Luna's playing, and that worries me - because no, I don't think she's completely turned on Celestia this quickly. Some of her lines don't fit - that was definitely not 'nothing she couldn't handle'. It might not be actual torture, but moments ago she was barely able to speak coherently and very definitely scared. Before that, she tried to find an out by offering to repair the net herself.

I wonder if Luna's actually trying to spare Celestia worse punishment by making us focus on continuing a lesser punishment on herself for the moment? Or to get Cadance out of here by making her angry, before we potentially turn our attention to her? Luna wanted very much to speak in private, after all, and definitely seemed upset when we refused that. Maybe she was upset she'd have to 'play the monster'?

As for Cadance... we can tell her the honest truth: We hit Luna, yes, but nothing more. All else we did was explain to her that Celestia damaged the net trying to escape on her own, trying to leave Luna behind again. Luna can confirm that for us, if need be. In fact, -Celestia- might even confirm that for us: She can still nod her head to confirm what we're saying, though we'll have to figure out a way to phrase it so that she doesn't lie and say we did.

>>25630684
Aye captain

>> 25630591
We need to have a fucking talk with Luna. In character we need to figure out what happened, as well as....she might not have had anything to do with our banishment (then again she did say "we've sent"). This brings into question just how much of this has been all Celestia. (I'm thinking Luna was suffering from the neglect at the time so she's still at fault but a victim too and to a lesser degree.)

"I only talked Cadence. ..it was celestia who did something to her...to us."
> taking a deep breath we turn to her looking into her eyes.
"You are so young. But imagine a world where you are the oldest and most powerful being and you never have to deal with the consequences of your actions. Your sister whom you wronged is willing to put it aside for the sake of the nation and her subjects whom she loves. And no one else would ever dare question you. After all you've so wise and perfect. .."
> placing our face in our hand letting out a great sigh
"There is no equestria here to be shocked and appalled now if Luna called Celestia forward for her crimes....even the highest royalty must pay for their crimes. Eventually you get knocked down and the little people...heh ponies that you stepped on can reach you"

Internet is back.
>>25630780
Son of a fuck you might be right.
How should we play this?

>We smile widely patting Luna's hair softly, before walking towards the door.
"You know what? I think I will give you privacy. We have a lot to talk about. After though. Please feel free to explain to Cadence"

The issue here is they all have better senses than us, there's no way for us to eavesdrop! Fuck!

So really the only real option is play along, NEVER leave them alone. Luna and Celestia stay separate and Cadence is only allowed to visit under our supervision considering her actions (which can be the considerably light punishment for interrupting).

If we can play it long enough, Celestia will really think Luna is against her, and we can switch to using Celestia to turn Luna or make Luna enjoy this too much and give in.

As long as Luna and her don't have some secret code word or something, I mean fuck they've lived for an age. We really need to observe Celestia during these.

Everything got more complex xD How do we know we can trust her? Luna is obviously the more reserved sibling, she could be playing the long game here.

>>25631004
In before Olibird didn't mean to word it like that, and Luna was on our side all along. And we blow it.

>>25630780
How Luna acts after Cadence leaves will help tell I think. We need to be aware of any discrepancies. If she suddenly loses that core of strength she's using to play it off, or if she forgets to play it up, and shows she was playing us with how she was affected with the pain. Its late and I need to go to work so I'm having trouble thinking of things we need to look out for.

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>>25631047
I'm thinking we need to list what we need to address.

Any anon feel free to throw in.

1. Luna's possible duplicity

2. Cadence's fear (I'm liking the dominance increase, but we should redirect it so that its Celestia who did this. Sorta like this guy is saying maybe. >>25630834
I'd like to hear more ideas though

3. We don't know fuck all. Why is Cadence afraid? Luna was banished? We need a chat though I'm not sure if we should have both sisters talk or talk to Luna privately. (Alternatively this could show us more clues on whether Luna is playing us)

Actually...
>Looking, you meet Luna’s gaze, her expression telling you all you need to know..
>”May I speak to her in private? Master?”
“No, of course not. Anything you have to say, you can say in front of me.”
>Luna deflates against you, that determined look fading.
>”Very well...Cadance, he is right. I must request you leave at once.”

>That’s the look of a fury that’s simmered for centuries.

I WANT to know what was going on behind that determined look. and I'm sure the fury is real, but the question is she drawing on it to play us or not?

Anons halp. This guy really fucked me over mentally.>>25630780
pic related

I'm going to bed to take a fresh look at this. Night.

>>25631004
>>25631047
>>25631174
Hah, I'm glad I wasn't the only one who smelled something fishy and got people thinking.

The idea about redirecting blame back at Celestia is a good one, as is the little monologue someone posted earlier - though I'd add something like, 'Your sister whom you wronged is willing to put aside being banished for the sake of the nation and her subjects whom she loves, but you're still willing to abandon her for your own sake. Could you do that to your family, Cadance?'

I expect Luna was playing up that look of fury. She may be upset, but she still cares for Celestia on some level - I remain of the opinion she was also playing up the punishment to be worse than it was so Celestia would only experience the mental harm, not direct physical punishment.

Above all else, however, we need to get all three separated. As was said, Luna's reaction after Cadance leaves and then being able to ply Luna and/or Cadance for information while they're alone will do a great deal for us.

>>25630591
Does Anon know about the entire NMM situation? I'd doubt it, seeing that he's been in Tartarus for so long. That black fur and helmet line, along with the banishment should prompt a question or two when they have time in private. I wonder how Anon would react to knowing that Luna also attempted to fight against Celestia on her own before? The enemy of my enemy?

I feel like I should contribute to this story, but it is just proceeding exactly how I want it to anyway.

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>>25632314
Contribute or I won't suck your dick.
I want your opinions anon.
Don't make me take them

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Luna's punishment (after we talk to her about NMM stuff) needs to scale up a bit if she is trying to pass this off as nothing. Her butt clearly requires spanking.

We need to give credit where it is due, be honest in saying that you are not to blame for what Luna just said and that we are just as surprised at her words.

>>25630591
Clever moon horse is clever. I genuinely don't know who she's playing here, and I like it.

I say we resume the instruction, but give Luna a bit of room. Engender a little trust based off of her speech, maybe commiserate with her about the unjust nature of banishment. Nothing over the top, but acknowledge that what she did was helpful.

But don't be afraid to bluff that you know what she mouthed to Cadence.

>>25634203
>Clever moon horse is clever. I genuinely don't know who she's playing here, and I like it.
Don't be silly. Moon horse is playing everyone. And that's how we should approach it.

Oh shit, got an idea for a story.... NMM succeeds in stopping twilight from "double crossing" her. Twilight doesn't get away. Twilight gets stuck in NMM's reality.

>>25630258
>Where is Twilight anyway? She has the alicorn magic, so why doesn't she walk in to rescue the other princesses?


Maybe she didn't teleport out of the tree house, instead tried to save it, and failed....

>>25634631
I've given a serious look at visiting that timeline directly. NMM > SpikeLight would be... interesting.

>>25634755
I will be returning to my story line. But the finale also gave me other ideas.

One that I'm feeling motivated to start writing now. But I'm not moving on till I either finish Fall Of The Moon or there is 0 interest in the story just got to get back into the swing of things.

My first thought about that time line though is would twilight just be a perfect or corrupted. And would anon even be involved. At all. In SiM NMM summoned him to distract the ponies. That means she wouldn't have in the one where she was unopposed. But that doesn't mean she wouldn't have for other reasons. If she has that capability.

>>25634800
Pet not perfect. Fucking auto predict.

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>>25634755
"Brute, your pet escaped. Now, I demand to know how and why it grew WINGS. If this is supposed to be a joke, it's not funny."
>"Nightmare, Twilight's still in her room."

>>25634841
Oh shit. Two twilight's. Either she's a pet to anon or NMMs number one pupil.

Also the captcha was a sign post for a street named sunset. I'm also on a street called sunset on the bus... this means something.

>>25634858
Holy shit. There is a timeliness the finale didn't address. Sunset Shimmer was never stopped and came Back to Equestria. Or got caught when she revisited to steal a crown?

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>>25634865
What did you think that last timeline WAS?

>>25634889
Nightmare was never banished. And everything died due to no sunlight.

Though that might be a stretch. You might be on to something.

>>25630591
The game here seems fairly obvious. We have the Defiant, the Schemer, and the Innocent.

The Defiant is Celestia. Too proud to bow, no matter how much suffering it might save her or her sister. And though she likely has a soft spot for Luna, she has a softer spot for Cadence. As long as she stands strong Luna is unlikely to give in as well. And while she is Luna's biggest strength, Luna is her greatest weakness. Her strength can be eaten away by her lack of trust in Luna. If she's convinced Luna is operating against her or hates her then she'll crumble.

The Schemer is Luna. Bowing down to save everyone as much pain as possible. Trying to control the situation as much as she can from her limited position. Even if she doesn't realize it she's reliant on Celestia's strength to keep up her resolve. And her resolve will be tested as her darker side wants to help encourage revenge against her sister. The anger and hatred is there, which we've already saw once. All it should take to break her is give her what she doesn't want to want. Lead her by the nose to hurt Celestia with feeble insistence and reveal later on that she could have refused.

If we notice Luna starting to get more vicious/dismissive of Celestia we should change our descriptors from "She tried to abandon you/betray you" to "Look at how weak she is. Pitiful" and the like.

And, of course, the Innocent is Cadence. The most annoying wrench in the system because we don't particularly want to hurt her, making her the most risky as an avenue of communication between the sisters. Which we very much don't want. Threatening a harsh punishment towards the sisters for each house rule she breaks should do wonders for keeping her in check. After the first violation and punishment is dealt out of course.

Even as the pieces move around and play to their advantage, as long as we keep firm control of the board this should be a grand old time.

>>25634203
That could be disastrous. Depending on what she said we would immediately punish her.
Its a bluff way too easily called with no base in truth.
We should always speak in truths and half truths.
Otherwise completely agreed.

>>25633785
Definitely deserves some thought.

>>25635136
I fucking like you. I really fucking like you.
Lets listen to this guy, or give it some thought.

Even if we're wrong in thinking Luna is scheming it doesn't hurt to play defensively. This only emphasizes they must not be allowed to interact on their own. Though it might not be a good idea to be open about this restriction.

It might let on we're worried about our power and lessen the atmosphere of dominance.

>>25635136
I think we should use Luna to crumble Celestia, leaving them separate, so Luna can't repair the damage, and same with Cadence as she might be aware now with whatever Luna mouthed to her.

We need them divided. And if Cadence asks again what we would do. Fucking A we need to take her out on that trip. Until we do, she's going to not realize what our protection offers. This is a huge problem for us. We should also put something over Celestia's and Luna's doorways. We don't need them yelling to each other while they're alone, and conspiring.

>>25635225
>Though it might not be a good idea to be open about this restriction.
It's a consequence of the interference as far as we'll explain it. That's Cadence's punishment for being a bad guest. If she wants to stick her nose where it doesn't belong we'll slam it shut on her. If she follows the house rules we'll allow her to do nice things for her aunts.

Of course, I'm better at playing literary tropes and personality manipulation, straight dom/sub stuff has always been too straightforward for me.

>>25635258
>We should also put something over Celestia's and Luna's doorways. We don't need them yelling to each other while they're alone, and conspiring.
That is an issue.

>>25635136 (me)
Oh, and I almost forgot. Celestia's softer spot for Cadence can be used to burn Luna. Severely. But that's a seed that needs to be planted and watered.

>>25634858

This was me, apparently you can't trip from a smart phone...

So about my story for anyone here who never heard of it.

Fall of the Moon was a jump forward about 5 years from Nameless's story line. It wasn't intended to be cannon to his story line. Just a look at a potential future. In that time the pets to Anon had settled down into their positions that Anon had placed them in as slaves. He'd gone to war, commanding the armies of equestrian against NMM's enemies. Had a custom armor set and sword which were infamous. Anon had even become a "second hand" to NM, an advisor. Though from her behavior and vocabulary she still saw him as a beast, a mongrel, an ogre.

The story picked up with Anon finally arriving home from the front lines of a war between the Griffons and Equestria. He was trying to spend some alone time with Pinkie Pie, only to be interrupted by a guard sent by NMM.

I picked up the story from some desperate anon who threw out a few lines of green to invigorate the thread due to a lack of green.

I had intended to rewrite the beginning of the story because it goes from silly to serious very abruptly. Which is what I'll do first.

Then I may either continue from where I left off, or read through the story to flesh out/remove some bits that either don't make sense, or have more potential. I'll have to see how I feel about it. Opinions welcome.

Here is a link to the paste bin for anyone interested.
http://pastebin.com/LL9bqNez

>>25635292
Yes! A dialogue

You make an interesting point about how to phrase it, slamming the door in Cadence's face. We could restrict her access to her aunts!.
We aren't hurting her, or her aunts more. But she loses the right to see our prisoners.
That should slap her good without breaking any of our restraints we've placed on ourselves.

Yeeeees you magnificent fucker. I love that shit.
Lets mold these woefully unprepared mares.

>>25635307
Can you elaborate more. You seem to have an interesting idea but I'm not sure I follow it.
You mean like Celestia going further out of her way for Cadence than she ever has for Luna?

>>25635395
It was established earlier that Celestia showed more concern for Cadence once. From Celestia's perspective Luna is a strong mare, though she worries about her darker side. Cadence is the Innocent. She's the one that needs protecting from the big bad Anon due to her youth and inexperience. Luna is more able to take care of herself.

Luna will see it as Celestia putting others before her again.

There would be two parts to it. Lying, or being honest depending on the perspective, casually to Luna about Celestia's greater worry for her niece than her own sister. And encouraging Celestia's worry for her niece. This will involve letting Luna be aware that Cadence is being well enough treated and making Celestia think she's being treated badly.

Eventually Luna and Celestia are going to be able to talk and scheme among themselves. Celestia being overtly worried over Cadence in that situation will be like a dagger to Luna.

>>25635481
Very smart I like it. We need to be careful though, we tried being sly before and Cadence was easily able to hear us. We need to learn from that, and properly spread our corruption with discretion.

None of this overhearing us crap again.

Poor Olibird. How's he going to keep track of all these items we bring up?

>>25635327
I'll have a look now

>>25635327
Right! I remember this story now. Yeah I liked it. You're going to continue then?
That's good to hear.

>>25635738
Yea, I've said I wanted to in the past. But the desire didn't go beyond a simple desire. Now I want to finish it and move on to another story for this thread.

>>25635961
Awesome. When I first read it I was really interested, but then it stopped.
Hope I get to see your work soon

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>>25626761

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>>25637040

Wanting to throw something in:
Anon should outright say that he will punish cadence if, as his guest and apprentice in how to survive in tartarus if she makes a mistake as destroying an item important for survival.
But its about intent, Celestia destroyed it on purpose, if Cadence breaks something unintentionally she should feel the consequences. The consequences that Anon has to eventually carry for not having a functional net.
So thats my idea, Anon takes Cadence as an aprentice and tries to control her like that.

Maybe drop something along the lines of him knowing what he does is wrong-ish, and him being suicidal playing with the thought if killing himself after he gets out just to see if his mortality has returned
He needs this revenge and she has to understand that, and he wont torture them forever, he's not as cruel as those who even forget why they lock away people forever.
He cant keep it up, maybe just for a fraction of eternety...
Make her have sympathy for him, even if it starts with pity, she seems quite empathetic.
Or... you know... just con her into believing that
or have anon not be sure if he just pretents that or actually feels that way.
Moral dilema, woo!

This us the longest post I ever made on my phone, consider me very invested.

>tfw thread suddenly explodes and too busy with work to catch up

Seriously though, I'm majorly hyped to read up, the bits of discussion I've seen sound really encouraging.

Until then though, >bamp.

>>25634800
>But I'm not moving on till I either finish Fall Of The Moon or there is 0 interest in the story
Just so you know, there is at least one person that still wishes to see that story brought to a satisfying conclusion.

>>25639652
Are you a writer of some sort?

>>25639750
No, I'm just a dumbass who can't remember to clear the name field when he cross boards. The name was to make archiving the Q&A easier.

>>25634800
>Fall Of The Moon
What was this again?

>>25639878
>>Fall Of The Moon
>What was this again?
Isn't that that retarded white knight shitpost story?

>>25639878
>>25640112
Fall of the Moon is the one with Doormat and the top unf orgasm denial.

>>25640166
Doesn't sound super memorable if it's just a character and a fetish-driven scene.

>>25639878
>>25640112
It was like one of the first spin offs from the Nameless universe back when he was still around and posting frequently forever ago.

http://pastebin.com/LL9bqNez

It features anon slowly losing faith in NMM which should eventually lead to a usurping of some sort. Honestly I thought MM was dead good to know a story I nearly forgot MIGHT be coming back soon.

Also you >>25635327 I am a guy who is still interested.

>>25634800
>Fall of the moon is coming back
Eeeeexcellent

>>25640235
It was actually one of the more in-depth spin-offs and actually had a decent plot going and also not one but two really good orgasm denial scenes.

>>25640243
>It features anon slowly losing faith in NMM which should eventually lead to a usurping of some sort.
Oh, okay. That summary makes more sense. I vaguely remember it, but the premise didn't do anything for me.

>>25640331
Okay.

>>25640331
>the premise didn't do anything for me.
Same. For me the best scenes involve interaction between NMM and Anon. The way NMM approaches power and interpersonal relationships is interesting as hell.

The NMM and Octavia scenes are great, too.

Added Proportional Punishment to the cyoa archive.

http://anonpone.pineapplecomputing.com/punishment/

>>25640931
Writing the new introduction to the story now. Not going to green it till its all done, but I'm physically starting the writing now.

>>25640931
Woohoo!

You guys sure this is only thread 70 so?

Haven't you been around for like 3 years?

>>25642041
22 Mar 2014 was the first post of the SiM story. So about half that.

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>>25642096
Tfw: I'm only here for Broken Bluebird and Luna learning BDSM and have never actually read the original story this thread was made for nor any of its spin offs.

>>25642155
haven't read the spinoffs, but the original story is really good.

>>25642155
The original story is pretty good and there are some good side stories.

>>25642155
There is nothing wrong with that.

>>25610565
>Both Discord and Tirek must have been freed by the actions of the M6 or their families.

Not necessarily. Discord was just freed with a little bit of chaos and Tirek got out because Cerberus got out of Tartarus.

>>25642359
>>25642155
You guys probably should read the OG story and spinoffs. Most people seemed to like them, and it would allow many of the other stories in this thread to actually make sense to you. Besides, it gives you something new to read, which is nice.

Maybe even post reviews on sections once you've read them in the thread? Seeing first impressions is fun, and allows for good discussions instead of dumb bumps.

>>25644082
>Semi-Related
What's everyone's favorite Anon, NMM, or Octavia scene, either from a side story or the OG?

What's everyone's favorite story from this thread, even if it's not SiM related?

>>25644094
My favorite story is the one Olibird is writing right now.

>>25644822
Broken Bluebird is fucking amazing.
There's been some great Octavia ones but i can't remember the writefriend.
Nameless's was great, but I think is surpassed by a few stories.
And Olibird's story here is so fucking good.

There was one with Sunset shimmer coming back to equestria which was interesting but i don't know if it went anywhere

>>25644094
From the original story, my favorite scene was when Anon suggested that Octavia be part of his pets, then stops joking and gives her a reward for her work. I still wonder how she truly would have had reacted if Anon went through with his suggestion. The part I am talking about is line 4339 onwards.

>>25644094
The scene in Escapade's story where Octavia cleans Applejack's arousal, and makes her cum from the stimulation.

I love the idea that Anon still has no idea that Applejack got off during that orgasm denial.

>>25644094
I'm going to toot my own horn a little here, and chose my own story. Admittedly, my favorite story changes from day-to-day, so this doesn't mean too much.

>Meet the Parents Epilogue
Melancholy II Epilogue (Meet the Parents Epilogue), might my favorite piece of green I've ever written. I believe it's the first, (and still the only), time we've ever seen Anon, Octavia, and NMM at the same time. AnoNMM working together to verbally discipline Octavia is a unique moment, since it really allows us to see a "stable" AnoNMM relationship, and how each of them views Octavia. We don't see a tsundere NMM, or a hesitant Anon; we see them being perfectly comfortable with one another, if only for a moment. It's the only example (to my knowledge), that we have of AnoNMM dealing with a problem together.

Then there's Octavia, who really completes the scene's dynamic. Unlike almost every other pony, Octavia has earned something resembling respect from Anon and NMM. Even in their anger, they show restraint when dealing with Octavia, and her relationship with Melancholy. It's almost heartwarming, in that they appear to honestly care about Octavia and Melancholy in a twisted, dark sort of way. We see NMM acknowledge the dynamic differences between Anon's relationship with Octavia compared to her own. We get a glimpse of NMM's typical blood-line/tribal views, etc.

Maybe to the reader this scene isn't very impressive, which I'd entirely understand. But being the writer, and having dealt with Octavia, and NMM for so long, introducing Anon to the equation, and finding a nice, restrained balance made Melancholy II, and especially the epilogue, one of my personal favorite works.

>>25645617
I was a fan of how Octavia, justifiably, flips out on AJ for tricking her into getting her off. That was the first time I thought, maybe Octavia won't be such a passive pony.

Well, since we seem to be tripping for this...
>>25644094
While there are so many fantastic scenes to pick from in the original story, I think my favorite has to be the scene where Anon and Pinkie Pie go into Fluttershy's room after catching the guard leaving. It's a simple one, yea, but that was when it truly hit me that Anon wasn't 'just' breaking their will, he was going to brainwash each and every one of them until they NEEDED their master as much as they needed to eat.

Favorite story from the thread? Cookies and Milk. There’s only a few stories I’ve read that have completely cemented themselves in my headcanon, and that’s one of them. I’ve never read another one that deals with Luna’s reasons for her fall, that hit anywhere near as hard as that one. Even better, it works independently of the SiM setting, too.

>>25644822
>>25644850

Come on, you guys, this isn’t funny anymore. You’re starting to freak me out.

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>>25637743

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>>25647385
Ok sorry you caught us. gotcha didn't we?

GUYS shut the fuck up, we're scaring him off, someone get the rope

Haha we sure had you fooled.

>>25648322
>dat gif
Off topic rant: I fucking hate those types of pics and gifs. As someone who grew up shooting, who spent time in the military, and who shoots as a civilian that shit just pisses me off. You don't give someone more gun than they're ready for. In addition to being dangerous, for the person and everyone within the effective range of that weapon, if what happens in the gif or the other "funny pics" happens, you've likely turned someone off from shooting. Fuck. I hate dumbasses.

>>25645885
As Anon, NMM, and Octavia are my three favorite characters from this thread that scene was awesome. Runner up, though, would likely be one of the NMM/Celestia scenes from CaM or CaM II.

>>25640931
Oh, snap. We got an Amm, we official CYOA now.

>>25648643
Unfortunately Anon, you can't stop someone from buying more gun they can handle. People hurt themselves all the time using things they can't handle, you just need to make sure they don't hurt YOU while they're being stupid.

>>25648643
Know that feeling, bro. Nonshooting friend I know got taken to a range; they thought it would be a good idea to jump him straight up from a .22 semiautomatic right to a .357 revolver. Recoil jumped it from his hands, broke his finger. I was pissed.

>>25648643
>>25649183
>>25649322
Why are we spoilering things that don't need to be spoilered?

>>25649362
Why not?

>>25649362
memes

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>2015
>Using any kind of violence to get your ponies in line
>Not using your superior banter skills to subdue them
It's like you're not even aussie

>>25649322
What about a 9mm? Any good ones?

I plan on getting one for range use and CC

>>25651186
>What about a 9mm? Any good ones?
You can't really answer that without knowing more about you, your skillset, intended use, and so forth.

Think of it like this: what you've asked is a bit like asking what's a good 6 cylinder car. Now, there are tons of ways to answer that, but the answers you need pertain to you and how you'll be driving that car.

Your best bet is to go to a range, see what feels good in your hand, try lots of makes and models, and follow that up with some research and number crunching. Then redo your range run with some of your top contenders, and continue the narrowing process.

If you haven't recieved any professional training, do so. You can learn a lot from a pro, and a good instructor can give purchase advice based off of what he sees.

>>25648752
Yeah I emailed him last thread before Olibird said he did a pastebin.
Its a cool story and I was worried.

>>25638068
She hasn't actually agreed to be our apprentice. Though it being about intent is decent but in her current state she might just destroy something so we have to.

So how would we make her our apprentice?

EEEEeh no thanks to suicide anon. We don't want pity. Once you're pitied its pretty hard to be taken seriously let alone thought of as dominant unless anyone else has an idea to make this appealing.
And I wouldn't count on anon being a good actor personally

>>25651489
Actually, that is exactly what I was going to do, going from the most popular 9mm to down, and seeing what fits me.

The local gun range offers free training to those who aren't familiar with a gun, and I already took up on their offer.

>>25651186
Had the pleasure to fire a CZ-75 once, wish I could find one of those for a reasonable price and the local laws weren't so shitty. I've heard Walther has a couple of good options for CC, if that's your focus.

Like other anon said, though - depends a lot on your experience and personal preference.

>>25651850
Experience: Negligible
Preference: Something that I will use forever and never have to worry about changing, like from muskets to rifles.

>>25602743
>That unicorn
>Wears concealing clothing
>"It's doesn't matter who I am."
Bane works for Nightmare now?

>>25652224
It is taking a lot of effort on my part to not post a picture of CIA right now, but I refuse to shitpost in this thread.

>>25652727
>"Tell me about Spitfire! Why does she wear the suit?"

goodnight bump

Bump for Oilbird.

>>25652040
Without experience it's hard to have a preference. You really need to just go out and shoot. I could recommend X, Y, or Z, but you might not like how they feel in your hand.

For example, take Glocks. Tons of people swear by them, they post solid numbers and reviews, and I hate them. That fucking safety shit on the trigger just feels off to me.

So, like said, get some experience and then you'll learn more about your preference.

>>25654476
And that is exactly what I will do. Get some experience with the pistols they have on offer, from the most popular down.

>

Bamp

>>25630591
>There’s something off about this whole thing.
>You aren’t sure exactly what it is, but your instincts are screaming at you that Luna is playing someone.
>You just aren’t sure who.
>Regardless, right now, they’ve managed to completely lose you in this conversation.
>Until you know more, playing along might be the right choice.
“Nothing. Aside from a light whipping, which Luna did a wonderful job bearing, all we did was talk. I’m not the one who's DONE anything. Luna here,”
>Swinging your arm out, you slap your hand on her back as you would a friend, your palm coming down right where you had whipped her.
>”Nnnnn…” Luna shudders as you lean against her-a far cry from her earlier reaction.
“Is the only one of you three who truly understands the pain of being sentenced to rot. When she saw that Celestia tried to run away again...Well, she realized I'm doing is right.”
>That explanation does nothing to quell Cadance’s fear. As she takes another quaking step backwards, you continue,
“Frankly, I don’t see why you’re so scared. It’s what I’ve been telling you all along.”
>”Because you’re corrupting her...turning her back into that...THING.”
>”That ‘thing?’ My dear, sweet niece-”
“Enough!”
>You slap your hand hard against Luna’s back, the blow being fueled by your growing frustration.
>”Nuuh…” she moans out, shuddering under your hand.
>Was there a delay there? You couldn’t tell.
>You wish Tirek was here.
>While you’ve certainly learned a thing or two from him, he was always the master manipulator.
>He conned you into working with him, after all.
>He’d already know what Luna’s goals were.
“You’ve been told twice, Cadance. Go back to your room, and when we’re done here, I’ll be by to discuss the house rules.”
“Right now, you being here is doing more harm than good.”
>Cadance freezes up, her eyes darting between the three of you, torn between misery and fear.

>>25658833
“If you don’t, I’m going to start adding lashes…”
>You can feel the muscles under Luna’s fur ripple as she tenses up, hard.
>Shooting her a look, you growl out, making sure to keep your tone the same as before,
“Not her. You.”
>”Mrrf!” Celestia clangs against the bars of her cage, showing that your attempt to confuse her has worked.
>Luna, however, relaxes under your hand...to a point, anyway.
>You did just threaten to hurt her, after all.
>Cadance takes another step back, her mouth agape, “I…I’ll find a way to fix this Auntie Tia! I swear!”
>You open your mouth to politely yet firmly tell her to shut up, when she whirls around and half gallops out of the room.
>Well...as long as she doesn’t decide to leave, you should be fine.
>You wait until her hoofsteps are mere echoes before you walk over and reclaim your makeshift whip.
>Reapproaching the blue alicorn, she looks...well, guilty.
>She’s staring at her hooves, her ears pressed firmly to the sides of her head...she’d look almost pathetic if it weren’t for her previous display.
>You aren't going to let it distract you.
>For all you know, this is is her attempting to manipulate you.
“Alright Luna. You still have two more lashes.”
>She jerks out of her self pitying stupor as you approach, taking a moment to respond, “...Very well then. I will accept the rest of my punishment, master.”
>Closing her eyes, she lowers her head, exposing her back for you.
“Ooohh no, you aren’t getting away that easily, miss ‘Nothing I can’t handle.’”
>Her eyes snap back open, her pupils as tiny as Cadance’s were a moment ago. “Would you have preferred I said otherw-”
“Shut it.. You and I are going to have a fucking talk.”
>Darting your hand out, you grab ahold of her horn and pull her forward. “Naah!”
>Happily, she doesn’t struggle, her eyes wide as you march her back into her room.

>>25658843
>Entering her room, you “throw” her forward by her horn, causing her to stumble in front of you.
>You aren’t sure where to begin with her.
>There are too many unanswered questions, and not a whole lot you can verify.
>May as well start with the first point that confused you.
“Celestia was the one who banished you, and they’re both terrified of you. I want to know why.”
>Luna blinks twice before breathing a sigh of relief. “Very well, master. That has quickly become my most told story. As you know, a thousand years ago, my sister and I-”
“No. I don’t want the sanitized thing with a lesson at the end, I want the real story. If I ask Cadance and find out you’re messing with me, I WILL be taking it out on your hide.”
>Luna looks away, her ears slowly lowering as a war seems to wage between her ears.
>You look over your whip, making sure Cadance didn’t damage it up too badly.
>Your patience is quickly dwindling, the urge to take out your frustration on Luna swooping in to replace it.
>...The pink one didn’t seem to do too much damage, that’s good.
>”She made me feel as though I was inherently unlovable!” Luna finally blurts out, still staring at the wall.
“...Look at me Luna.”
>Taking her snout in your hand like you had before, you firmly guide her to face you.
“Now explain.”
>Her eyes dart away or a second, returning only when you squeeze her jaw in warning.
>”I...don’t know what was intentional and what was unintentional, but over the years, Celestia made me truly believe I was unlovable, that there was something inherently wrong with me.”
>Well, so far you aren’t seeing any major signs she’s lying...just uncomfortable.
>Wait, hang on, didn’t she tell you the opposite when Tirek dropped her off?
>Dammit, which one was the lie?
>The one she’s telling you now, or the one she said in front of her sister?

>>25658856
>”Any successful joint venture we had, our ponies would praise her. I would only be named if it was a failure. I struggled with this for years…”
>”Eventually, I stumbled upon a...method...that would allow me to remove my sister, and force everypony to love me. I seized upon it, and almost killed my sister right then and there.”
>”That was why she banished me, master. Upon my return, I attempted to resume my conquest, until I was defeated by the bearers of the Elements of Harmony…”
“So they’re worried you’re going back to old ways.”
>”As are most ponies, master. They do not understand that I would never do such a thing, again. My life has become defined by the worst thing I’ve ever done...something you may know well.”
“Just an inkling.”
>Well, that was the understatement of the year.
>”At least I was able to put that fear to use. My niece should not interrupt us again, master.”
>...She’s looking for praise, is she?
>Too bad. Maybe she’ll get something, once you know this isn’t a game.
“The helmet and black fur comment. Explain that.”
>She gives you a sort of half-smile.
>”I had a very distinctive look when I was attempting to usurp my sister...and an alias. Nightmare Moon.”
>You blink at that.
“YOU were Nightmare Moon? Your sister was talking about fixing up one of your dungeons to use on me. Apparently it’s fine if she does it.”
>Luna jerks against your hand as though you had just slapped her. “Sh-she what…?”
>Ignoring that, you move on to your next question.
“The way you were talking back there, you were trying to make it sound like she was the one mainly responsible for banishing people to Tartarus. But I REMEMBER you were there. Explain.”
>”I...she...I spent the last one thousand years imprisoned on the Moon, master. Were there no additional banishments while I was gone?”

>>25658867
>...Well, fairly early into your banishment, there was a lull in the number of “new arrivals” for a few years, before it picked back up.
>Was that really one thousand years ago…?
>You always knew you were estimating, there’s no real way to tell the passing of years, or even days in this place but...
>Son of a fuck, how long HAVE you been in here?
“No, no, there were. Are you trying to imply you wouldn’t have banished anyone? Because I don’t exactly remember you arguing to spare me. Or much of a trial, for that matter.”
>That day’s still burned into your memory.
>Two equine goddesses descending from the heavens to scream at you in a language you didn’t understand, before casting you down into the pits of hell.
>”Truthfully, master, I never gave the matter the attention it deserved. I was too caught up in my own torment to do much more than agree to the punishments my sister suggested…”
>”I sentenced you, and others to this place without caring about who any of you were, or what any of you had done.. That is why I must atone...master, you’re hurting me! Please, let go!”
>Damn right you’re hurting her.
>Your hand squeezes her jaw as rage threatens to overwhelm you.
>What’s worse, the one who doesn’t remember, or the one who didn’t care?
>In the back of your mind, a voice of rationality pipes up, cutting through the fog threatening to envelop your mind.
>What if she’s lying to you about this, too?
>She could be playing you like a fiddle right now, and you wouldn’t even know.
>You need...you need to think. And fast.

bamp

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>>25658843
>>25658856
>>25658867

>>25658881
Alright anon's Lets analyze this motherfucker.

fucker didn't even drop a hint
I'm gonna need the CYOA just to be able to go over what she's said and stuff more easily. its hard to keep track of when half of what is being referenced is in another thread xD

its ok though you're still based Olibird you writefriend you

>>25658881
What about just being honest.
We aren't a manipulator.

Can we manage being dom continuously? Most people break from that shit.

>>25659522
I don't know if we need to worry about our mental stability. We've had to be strong for 1000 years and more.

page 9 bump

>>25660141
>>25660650
>>25661738
>>25662317
>>25662593
Fuck your bumps. Contribute your thoughts damn it!

>>25664309
Shining is a kek.

Wait, ive been gone awhile. Whos the writefag that did that luna and anon try bdsm but luna takes it the wrong way story?

Also what's this olibird story about? It's pretty long.

>>25664550
The story you are thinking about was also written by Oilbird, and is called 'My Kingdom for a Safeword'.

The one he is currently writing is about Anon being unjustly sentenced to Hell and him getting payback.

>>25664642
Oh man, that one was pretty good, but edged into the 2cruel4me area a few times.

On this story, I am little unsure how we should proceed on Luna's punishment. IF she is not manipulating us right now, then her only crime was being too wrapped up in her own misery to care about the suffering of others.

Personally I think we should punish this by still using Luna to punish Celestia, but being very sympathetic about her punishment afterword. If we can convince her that we are the better person by caring about her even as our prisoner I think that might mentally hurt her a lot since she couldn't bring herself to care about us.

The downside here is that if we play off her guilt she may be less inclined to embrace her darkness and help us punish Celestia.

>>25665020
anons pls discuss with me :(

>>25658881
Cadence wants us stop the abuse on Luna. We want to confirm Luna's story. We should make a deal for confirmation.

If Cadence does confirm the story, we lessen the punishments. If her story conflicts with what Luna just told us, we should increase it.

Either way I think we should get to the bottom of this and find more information before continuing with the punishments. Unless we want to repeat their sins.

>>25666099
I'm okay with this.